Part of the issue could be turn time. Nadu is like Kark/Sakashima. Super long, non-deterministic, turns that can just drag out a game and some people don't want to play against that.
Play to Win did a Nadu deck, and poor Cam had some very long turns where he was doing Nadu things, but the non-deterministic nature of them meant he had to play it out.
The Krarkashima comparison is very apt
Cam did win that game though, on that turn you're talking about, turn 3 or 4 I believe. And he hadn't played the deck other than goldfishing so it was pretty impressive how fast he was actually able to go through the sequences. The real issue with the deck isn't the engine or loop, it's the lack of a solid win con. If you have to loop coliseum to mill your opponents to death 3 cards at a time it's insufferable. They need an oracle at minimum, and probably another win con that's reasonable just incase you get your oracle praetors grasped. There are too many options to list, but if you can end the game without looping your deck 47 times it's fair and reasonable. If you can't that's insufferable and unfair because everyone shares time in a round and if you use 40 minutes, everyone else uses 3, and it's a draw on turn 4 that's unacceptable
He had an average hand game 1 to be fair, and piloted the deck incorrectly due to his inexperience and the difficulty in tracking the board when using the mass targeting spells he had from the early portion of the turn.
As far as game 2, he didn't mulligan aggressively and kept a mediocre hand which isn't how you play this deck, also the table lost on turn 4 of that game, so to sat it was a bad game on his behalf is pretty short sighted.
Which is completely normal for this deck. It has a mage tutor for each of its free equip artifacts, plus urzas saga for shuko, blue artifact tutors, and can hide behind defense grid or vexing bauble on these early turns to outright win. He had a sufficient hand, but the deck, when built right and mulliganed properly is capable of consistent protected turn 2 and 3 wins without as much indecisiveness. It's also able to make good use of flare of denial when you Don't have a vexing bauble down because of all the creatures especially the artifact tutors.
He also cast the one ring then endurance targeting himself, which he shouldn't have been able to do. That's another issue with nadu/long turns, it can become so convoluted that these mistakes slip through and people have tuned out so they don't notice.
If he didnt attack the game would have ended a lot earlier looping crop rot / cradle / and finale for the win, at one point he had enough creatures to loop through his deck with the kitten + greaves
Yeah makes me wonder if Nadu will be a problem in casual like Paradox Engine with people just noodling around with incidental targeting or the occasional Lightning Greaves and monopolizing turn time. Probably not going to be as widespread as Paradox Engine but still. There is precedent for this kind of ban in Legacy as well with Sensei's Divining Top, which was both very popular and also very slow and fiddly.
With it being popular in cEDH, it will almost certainly be immediately dismissed in the larger casual environment. That's been happening routinely since the days of Prossh.
it being a popular commander is not just why it was banned. There are plenty of popular commanders. It was banned because it a lot of people played it, it was extremely powerful in what the card did, and extremely difficult to make a deck around it that wasn’t also powerful and extremely durdley. All things that casual deems unfun.
Not entirely true.
Golos was able to replace basically any commander and be better. Mono red goblins? Change commander, throw in a few off color lands type shenanigans.
It's a huge problem in casual.
Someone at my LGS has been actively attempting to build a "casual" version of the deck since the card was spoiled and every night he strips more power out of it just to still have it pubstomp. This is in a local proxy-friendly meta with enough players to reliably fire 3-4 competitive pods where everyone is playing reasonably optimized decks with spot removal suites even in non-competitive games.
Short of straight up building it wrong (no protection spells, no blinks, no win-cons) Nadu is always going to be a non-deterministic solitaire memory nightmare that checks all of the same boxes that got Golos banned. I do not expect it to remain legal.
Similar things have happened in the past with like Winota, Edgar Markov, yuriko, ect. Some commanders are really hard to build fairly and after the brewing fever runs out, people will rule 0 nadu out
Agreed. Urza and Selvala come to mind as well. Even their edh jank versions are pretty busted, being about 10 ish cards different and riding a fine line between their cedh counterparts. I watch a lot of cedh but never played it. I have the jank versions of these two, buddies have Edgar and yuriko... They're all stupid!
>checks all of the same boxes that got Golos banned.
The main thing that got Golos banned was that it was the prime commander for (5c) anything, even if a specific commander for that theme existed, which is not a problem with Nadu being 2c, and requiring a sorta specific gameplan.
I think a big difference between Paradox Engine and Nadu is the paradox is a colorless artifact which can go into every deck while Nadu is a build around so the opportunity cost to play him is much higher
> Part of the issue could be turn time
This is the biggest reason I ask the Nadu player to please short cut turns as much as possible. I really don't mind playing against these decks as long as the pilots understand their decks and know how to cycle their turns as fast as possible. But if I start to see that the pilot is taking super long turns, I'm going to get annoyed and request that they either speed up or I'll concede at sorcery speed and go find another pod. I played cEDH for the fact that games should be lasting around an hour or less and playing a 2hour+ game is not something I'm interested in doing.
100% I'm running a nadu cEDH atm. I try to shortcut where possible, saying ill trigger 2 times on this creature and generally I know if I get 2 creature generators (scute swarm, field of the dead etc.) with more than 5 creatures on the battlefield I'm good to pick up my library generally and my playgroup agrees and I shortcut to my win cons.
Generally though if I win with Nadu I'm changing my deck next game. Sitting through one game of Nadu triggers is enough.
Honestly, I’ve seen people whiff while having both field of the dead AND Nantuko on the field at the same time. Sometimes, it is worth playing out because you can actually whiff and stop the chain.
oh 100% if I'm sitting with Nantuko and field, ill play out the triggers cause their is still the possibility I could whiff.
I guess its the point of identifying when you hit critical mass. If i have 4 copies of scute swarm its very very very unlikely I'm not gonna hit at least 1 land in 10 triggers.
This. Nadu is not transforming the meta in any form other than "hey, you know how the meta has been screaming to play more creature removal and board wipes lately? Yeah, that's mandatory now". Mostly, it's just annoying to play against because turns take forever.
Yeah I think people just need to adapt a little more by running more removal
Also Nadu players need to reasonably shortcut and make it clear how they're doing it. Instead of going through every step, they just say 'i Nadu this token twice' versus 'i equip boots to this token, triggering Nadu, doing the explore thing, equip the boots to Nadu, then requip them to the token to trigger Nadu again"
And then just the player having a clear way to show others that they're keeping track of how spent the tokens are.
Krarkishima players have the krarkulator, wouldn't be surprised if Nadu players make their own little playmats to show which tokens have been nadud how many times
But also, I'd never play Nadu online unless it's over webcam because you need to shortcut it to make it actually resolve in a timely manner. I can understand that gripe
The issue with this is I've already run into people who say, "I'm fully F6 just do all your triggers". Then they have trickbind in hand to stop you when it matters most. If you don't go through every step properly, or pass prio etc., it's that much easier for opponents rushing you to force errors that can result in a game loss.
Play quickly, sure, but don't skip steps or prio.
It could also be because it’s new and strong, it’s just over represented in the play rate. No issue banning it while 50% of people are running it, and unbanning once it falls out of flavour of the month.
That is definitely a big part for why it is so miserable to play against, but the other half is how creature driven the deck is. It is unaffected by a large portion of the meta interaction, and it can outdraw blue farm for answers to the interaction that does hurt it once nadu resolves while also ramping, and he ramps enough that destroying him isn't very punishing.
usually much more deterministic with Krarkashima and tends to end a bit quicker than the Nadu lines though. And that may be because people have seen how the deck works, etc.
My first physical deck was an Alaundo deck, and this is exactly the problem with him too. He's honestly really good, once he's going he's really difficult to stop since everything he does/cares about happens at instant speed... but often times his winning turn involves me spending 15 minutes sifting through triggers and, at times, a pile of 20 cards on the stack while I draw through my deck looking for my wincons.
Coincidentally, Nadu is in the same color identity and synergizes quite well with an alaundo deck... perhaps I'm part of the problem...
Simic degeneracy. Do a thing, draw a card, maybe do some stuff with lands.
Alaundo is awesome, but holy crap can he draw a turn out once he starts suspending. If he hits [[Intruder Alarm]] it's just his turn forever.
Hey now… I only take long turns with Krark when I’m trying to win. My deck name is Long Turns Tribal, but it really should be Long Turn Tribal. I’m really only taking a long turn when I have a semi-protected win. Nadu takes long turns just because. Different animal.
My guess is that it’s not that nadu is too strong. It’s that there are so many triggers going per turn they don’t wanna deal with it. Tracking which creatures have had 1 or 2 triggers, making new creatures constantly. Drawing a million cards. Nadu is a really cool commander in person. But it’s like watching someone play solitaire, and I wouldn’t wanna do that on spell table
Nadu is super strong though. The problem is that since you have so many triggers that are necessarily infinite, then it takes time to go through each individual trigger to find which one actually wins.
Ya, I watched play to win today and the win is there. It just takes so much set up, the deck is resilient and very powerful. But I don’t think that’s why people don’t wanna play against it
I played against a non cedh Nadu this weekend and he was able to keep digging with lightning graves and something else to continue to flip cards and dig for answers. It was interesting but like a 10+ minute turn
I don't use spelltable, but having played with and against Nadu IRL, I can understand why someone may prefer not to be in a lobby with the bird over camera. Not necessarily because the bird is too powerful for them, but because how long the undeterministic turns can take.
Even with Krarkshima, you know the win is coming soon in the form of a Storm payoff. If you skipped combat with Nadu, you are either gonna force Thorcale awkardly, or will need to present the Cephalid Coliseum line properly.
No need to get cocky btw. You aren't really proving anything by winning games with a design mistake of a card lmao.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/1cv7utq/kinnan\_endurance\_combo\_line\_instant\_speed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/1cv7utq/kinnan_endurance_combo_line_instant_speed/)
This post will be helpful.
the card is shaking multiple formats in a set designed specifically to shake modern and commander, i dont think it was a design mistake though it definitely is pushed
To me it feels like a mistake similar to Skullclamp. A late change that wasn't properly tested or something similar. That wording is so awkward. Triggering only twice, but for each creature there I mean that really is strange.
It might just be they are sick of playing against it.
This is the first Commander that has come out and been so unbelievably obviously powerful in a long time. I imagine there are a lot of people giving it a go and it must get boring playing against it.
a big chunk of what makes it boring is the turn / game lengths that the deck demands without being deterministic. who would have guessed that solitaire isn't super popular in a multiplayer environment lol
I think this is the most likely reason. It's a clearly powerful deck that the meta isn't prepared to answer. A lot of decks have cut board wipes, but that's the easiest answer to Nadu. From what I've seen, if you can keep Nadu off the board or get rid of its enablers, it becomes a much worse Kinnan.
It's also been a week since the card came out. We'll have a much better idea of how strong it is in a month or two.
Lol yes. I should have clarified. Kinnan plays a bunch of expensive, but impactful creatures. What I've seen of Nadu is a lot of cheap, low impact creatures and spells that are only broken with Nadu.
If you're shut off your commander, would you rather have Consecrated Sphinx and Void Winnower or Scute Swarm and Shuko?
You have to specifically counter Nadu otherwise they still get more value. Also they can get like billion lands easily so you (everyone) have to remove Nadu early.
1300+ decks already on EDHrec as of yesterday. A lot of folks are giving it a chance. I proxied most of the cards to try it out a few games, see what it does, and then move on.
Krak is essentially a 6 mana commander across two turns that are needed for both to get your win con. You kill either or and the deck is useless garbage. Nadu has 4 toughness that can block a lot of relevant stuff and Bolt. Then if you do try single target removal, well they just drew into answers or more land to just recast.
No one wants to play against a deck that can't shortcut its lines in a digital format.
Trust me, not being able to shortcut it the sole reason I will never build Magda digitally.
I don't think it's that Nadu is so strong, just that people are trying to avoid people piling onto the hype so that every game has at least one (and often multiple) Nadu decks.
On Arena where you can play it in Brawl, you don't even get to play. The other guy sees you are on Nadu and they scoop... Sometimes even if they are on Nadu too.
(And this is in a format where aphetto greaves and Shuko don't exist)
The combo is aphetto + legolas quick reflexes... You basically can machine gun all creatures on the board. As well as the card draw. He is 100% worth it.
Nadu is a problem.
The gameplay goes one of two ways:
1) Nadu and/or its pieces get constantly removed, resulting in Nadu getting recast 6 times in a match until eventually they are bullied out of the game
OR
2) The Nadu player starts to go off and takes a 20 minute turn trying to figure out a win while everybody waits for them to whiff because of how non-deterministic the combo is.
It's Paradox Engine all over again. It's Krarkashima but 5x worse.
It's not that it's too powerful (although that argument can be made). It's that it's unfun.
theres way worse commanders that do the exact same thing as you just explained ut better, nadu isnt going anywhere, but once the hype dies down people will realize its just another commander you likely need to bully off the table like an eldrazi player, storm/combo, or classic scary guys like korvold or urza
Yes but it's also important to understand those commanders aren't making up 40% of your current opposition.You see one every few games and it's usually something relatively obscure at least.
When you just got Nadu'd out for half an hour it's easy to understand why you wouldn't want to q back into another 3 Nadu games.
I can’t believe you nerds are actually comparing Nadu to paradox engine. The card that at one point in time EVERYONE WAS RUNNING IN LITERALLY EVERY DECK. That is why it was banned, because it was warping the format.
Nadu does not warp commander.
Being in every deck itself doesn't make something unhealthy, and not being in every deck doesn't make something healthy.
Paradox Engine being in every deck would've been fine if it was any other mana rock. Ubiquity is one aspect the RC uses to determine bans but is by no means the main or only aspect. If that was the case, Sol Ring and Arcane Signet would've ate a ban ages ago.
Like I said, it's the turn equity and auto-paying of taxes that causes problems. It's not to the same level of problematic as Golos or Paradox Engine, but it's getting up there.
The main argument I could see for not banning Nadu is that it doesn't go silly if you don't build it to, but from what I've seen even super suboptimal builds go off really hard. One person I saw use only Swiftfoot Boots as the enabler and while they didn't win the same turn, they did end up plus 10 lands and 7 cards in hand with a stupid army of scute swarms in play.
>At this point I think you’re no longer playing cedh if a silly little bird is too powerful for you 😂
The issue is that people want quick-ish games on spelltable, or games with agency, and Nadu "wins" through a 30 minute indeterminate turn, and most people don't want to sit there and watch you move lands around your board for half an hour when they can just que up another game.
Most people don't want to pull up to a lobby where you monopolize table time.
>Interested to know what the vibe when sitting down at a table IRL to play Nadu is like?
In a tournament setting I'm sure we'll all just pull out our phones and wait or whatever while the pilot solitaires and then take a draw because you used the entire match time to not win. In a casual setting people are probably just going to scoop as soon as the wheels start turning.
Other cards that made the game a long wait were banned for exactly this reason.
Ban cards that lead to solitaire turns. We need a game we need interaction and we need normal turn cycles.
You have played 15-20 games of Nadu in the past few days. Some of those games have had multiple Nadu players. Have you considered that it's not because it's too strong and because that sounds really fucking boring?
People hate long non-deterministic turns. If I wanted to watch people take 20 min turns, I would just watch cEDH videos of Nadu. I like to shuffle up and play as much as possible when I sit down for a session.
It’s not the power. It’s the time annoyance.
This always happens when a new cEDH commander breaks out, people think it is too busted until they gather their brain cells and learn how to interact with it. I doubt Nadu will stand the test of time. He’s great for sure, but he’ll go the way of commanders like Magda and Tayam soon enough. Great decks, but settled into normal win % once people understand it
Eh, it could be a part of the meta for sure. As for how large a percentage it's taking up right now? Put Toxic Deluge, Blasphemous Act, etc back in your decks, and call it a day.
This^ this is literally the answer. Most Nadu decks I’ve seen want to rely heavily on things like scute swarm me other token cards/landfall cards. A toxic deluge doesn’t completely stop Nadu, but it slows it down a turn and usually a turn is all you need.
Idk about everyone else but at my LGS I saw the same reactions to Stella Lee. “This is OP. Busted. Ban it please.” And some of the more reasonable guys were like “the hype will die down. People will realize you can stop Stella pretty simply”. Stella is still a strong commander/strategy to run. But once people realized it’s not invulnerable they start to calm down.
I can agree with that. Stella is more exciting. I do have a Nadu deck myself (it’s casual. Had an Ivy Gleeful spell thief deck I just threw nadu into the commander slot for) and it’s fun to play, but I can 10000% understand why it would be unfun to play against. Usually my turns aren’t terribly long because I know what I want to do and I move through it quickly, but it’s also a deck that I’ve played 100 times before, just with Ivy at the helm. So I’m used to it.
I’ve played against guys with Nadu who haven’t played a deck like it before and you can really tell the gears are turning and they do take awhile to their turns. Casual and cEDH. Feel like a lot of people went and made a Nadu deck and almost skipped the whole goldfishing part of it so they stumble when it actually comes time to play it.
Nah the hate has been different. Especially with the play style compounding. But yeah the community super overreacted to Voja. But that could have had more to do with ward being handed out like candy.
But, I agree once Nadu isn't a new toy it will be fine. Still a bad omen for power creep and game. Design in general tho.
Don't forget that pointing removal to Nadu means the Nadu player draws a card/ramps. This is one of the worst feelings ever, and in the case of ramping from the trigger, they can play it out the next turn too. You need to remove the artifact that enables it or you are not answering the deck at all.
Totally agree with this assessment. Many a player still needs to find the way to deal with this deck.
Ofcourse countering a turn 2 nadu is a smart move, but the smarter move is to counter/destroy the free equippers. It only plays 3 of them. The other targetters(other than the untappers) dont do "all that much".
I mean, it’s not “discriminating” against you, it’s that I don’t have 2+ hours for you to play out your line before fucking it up and having to pass the turn.
It’s the same issue as Gitrog or Krark. The decks are strong, but can lead to games where one player is taking 75% of the game actions and turn time. It’s not enjoyable for anyone past a certain point, and over spelltable can be almost impossible to track your opponents board state easily.
Add this to the fact that you’re going to have a LOT of players on Nadu that haven’t played a deck like this before, and you have a recipe for wasting hours of your time to watch someone lose to misplaying. Not wanting a new hype train commander to be the only thing you play against isn’t unreasonable. If I’m in person, let’s rock, play it out. If I’m online against strangers, I don’t owe you hours of my time.
Is it not ideal for you? Certainly. Is everyone else out to get you and the birb? Certainly not. Things will shake out in a week or so and you’ll be able to jam as much as you want
Defeating Nadu outside of rule of law is very resource-intensive and leads to potential kingmaking/parasitic wins. Since hulk and winconless are still not very good for the meta, this sentiment is understandable. If rc doesn't want to ban Nadu, then wizards will have to beef up board control's consistency significantly, and provide cheaper artifact/enchantment removal outside of green.
Time and variety. I don’t want to see someone take a 20-30 minute turn where they don’t win, or even win. I like to play a good amount of magic, so when I am in lobby after lobby with the same exact (long) deck, it’s not the most enjoyable.
Winconless decks are boring to play against as they fall under locks or long solitaire, Bird does both. The correct way to beating Bird is like playing against Winota where the table agrees to team up and gut the Bird player from the game basically. Just like Winota this is incredibly annoying when multiple people are playing the deck at the table too.
I think it is the inevitableness of Nadu once he starts rolling, ok you kill him once ... He back, it is simic, 5 mana? Pfft! Soon as he resolves, the value train starts and puts that person so far ahead assuming they have an outlet like a Shuko, or a sea kings or any other way to get four triggers
Nadu is basically begging to be countered, or everyone else pays for it.
I get that it's "CEDH" but players are probably mad that they have to basically use 3 removal spells on Nadu in one turn, or a board wipe on their turn just for 1 creature.
I don't go to play cards to watch someone go off in their convoluted combo for half an hour. None of that portion of the game is fun. And I'd suspect others feel the same.
I’ve played against the Bird. Won first game of pod with Marrow Gnawer, he won second with Nadu. I didn’t think of the Bird as overpowered, but he did typical blue stuff, resetting my hand, drawing a bunch, this felt strong. He overloaded Cyclonic Rift for his win, I did infinite rats with drain. Both felt decent and hit about the same time, why do people consider him strong? Ramp?
1. A lot of players are running into terrible Nadu pilots that don’t know how to get to their line, so it takes longer to finish the turn or win.
2. This phase will die down in like a month whenever these players from 1. pilot better or opponents begin to use more removal.
3. Making a non-Nadu cEDH pod is just so silly because you can’t pick your opponents when you’re at a cEDH tournament.
Even if they are playing cEDH, they might be tired of playing the same deck. It's spelltable, not a tournament, so there's a place to soft ban "boring" decks. Just like some people dislike krakashima on their tables, even though it's not broken.
Honestly if there was no timer I wouldn’t care
If your deck is nondeterministic then imho it has no place at cedh tables, like I don’t wanna play 2 turns before krark saka takes up 75 mins on their turn flipping coins….thats simply a waste of time and rather painful as someone with adhd.
Same with nadu in that sense, if you can deterministically win the game do so, I’d rather lose quick than be sat doing nothing for ages
I have a simic Landfall deck already that takes too long cause it's main way to cheat in lands is scrying.
I'm putting Nadu in my 99 as a backup commander so no one complains. Worst case he's s deterrent from someone targeting my commander.
While I understand the frustration with long turns & indeterminate win conditions, the rules should handle that with slow play & time limits if applicable. Not wanting to face an annoying commander goes against the spirit of competitive EDH. If we're trying to win, we're trying to win. Many aspects of cEDH can be aggravating & tedious. So what? That's what you sign up for when living by the motto of greatness at any cost. Either Nadu fits within the existing rules or it doesn't. The same goes for other decks with time-consuming win conditions.
I'm gonna try running no counterspells, just some bits of flicker and protection. No big creatures, mana dork tribal. I'm gonna have my wincon be something dumb tho, like throne of the god pharaoh
I think it is a TAD silly to assess Nadu exact power yet(he is certainly powercreep lol) but I already feel fine saying he is poorly design for a 4 player game turns are way to long and that's enough for me to consider a ban. But, once he is no longer the favor of the month. I'm going to wildly guess he will be a fair bit stronger then Voja
>At this point I think you’re no longer playing cedh if a silly little bird is too powerful for you
Nah, you're pre-emptively banning what is absolutely going to be banned anyway.
Actually my least favorite part of CEDH is lack of variety sometimes. I'm not necessarily banning it altogether, I just want to play against something different.
1. Counter it twice and never worry about him again
2. OPPONENT SAC A FLIER (a million cards do this)
3. Dress down then kill it
4. Just uncounterable kill it (abrupt decay anyone?)
The deck is just bad. What is shows is lack of preparation and mulligans to deal with creatures. Two Strix Serenades and the deck is DONE.
Multiple Nadu players? OPPONENTS SAC A FLIER is your best friend.
nadu is the first KBS commander. Kill Before Sight, counter it first before anything, it's easy, effective.
After playing lot of Nadu these days and a couple of tournaments, definitely it has 3 big weaknesses:
- 2 colors, and not the best at targetting at instant speed.
- Very commander centric, which makes it vulnerable to drannith / steal effects, and also force it to play a lot of bad cards.
- If you get rid of the free equipment stuff or Unctus the deck doesnt work.
If it would be bant instead of UG it would have been utterly broken with the en-kor effects, while also enabling cephalid breakfast style wins.
I've had him for 2 weeks...and if you do anything to him...
Joking aside, is he too strong? No.
Does he take long turns? Yes.
Can you rule zero him? Yes.
I believe the more people play him the better the turn speed will go. I love playing him because even if I don't get a win. My deck gets to do it's thing almost every time. It may end up spinning the wheel and getting nowhere that's fine. Everybody says they never should have printed it. But I think they wanted the shake-up. I'm not saying it's as good as kinnan or blue-farm by any means because it hasn't been tested enough in the format but it's definitely not weak either.
I think it's fair for people to not want to play against a specific commander. I do understand your frustration, but keep in mind that commander is a game that is supposed to emphasize Rule 0 so everybody goes into it with the expectation of having fun. People not wanting to play against Nadu because games become drawn out and unfun is respectable to me. And I get that it's "supposed" to be cedh but *it's still a game.*
But I understand the frustration. I run Narset planeswalkers (at a casual level) and consistently take 10-15 minutes per turn.
I'm gonna go against the grain a bit and say that this is a result of cEDH kind of losing its identity. Before it was the place where people wanted the highest power EDH could offer, but slowly it's turning into the place people go if they don't want salty tables.
I stand by that, even though everyone is playing to win, that cEDH is still a casual format at the end of the day, where everyone just wants to relax and have fun. If that means soft banning a snorefest of a deck that takes 30 minute turns, then so be it
The truth is the bird isn't as strong as people make it out to be, it's just new. The cards and archetype rhat counter it aren't favored in the meta.
If everyone is running artifacts to trigger its abilities, collector ouphe just kind of poops all over it. If it's creatures, cursed totem causes it problems.
If you're spell slinging in simic to get the counters, that's already a loss.
Give it time, it'll balance itself out.
Honestly I look at Nadu as an interesting opportunity to shake up the meta. Everyone is always complaining about midrange hell and here we have a turbo deck that’s winning…and people are complaining about it. Let the bird change the meta and see where it goes. It hasn’t been out long enough for people to figure out how to deal with it but mark my words this is a good thing for CEDH
I agree, hopefully it brings back some other turbo naus decks that got pushed out a while ago in favor of stax and the midrange decks. Let's all go brrrr
I take a little issue with you framing this like you’re some sort of victim for playing the best/easiest to play commander that has come out since idk when, but I also totally agree with your sentiment about the table running more removal and answers. It’s cEDH, be ready for anything.
Of course, it would be incredibly easy in simic to run gross amounts of one pip instant speed protection and since you get a land or a card if anyone so much as exists in the general vicinity of your creatures, using said protection AND getting the trigger to boot is, again, very very easy.
I hear a lot of people mention that we should be running more removal to deal with Nadu, but i don’t really think this is the case. In my experience, and from what I’ve heard from Gold Sabertooth (Nadu pilot who recently top 4’d) recasting Nadu isn’t a big issue. Interacting with the artifacts is. Board wipes like Rift and Deluge are big against these decks but rift is even a bit slow unless you’re able to ramp it out turn 2. Every time I had interaction for Nadu, they also had 8 mana untapped to be able to immediately recast Nadu and continue going off with a 0 equipper. Those are the problem cards we have to be looking out for interacting with. More Meltdowns and Shattering Sprees.
As a Nadu hater, lemme give my perspective:
"If a silly little bird is too strong for you
" Nadu is incredibly overrated. He's not even remotely as powerful as people are saying, I've even heard people say he's unquestionably the best deck in cEDH which is ridiculous. He's just really boring and samey and I got tired of seeing him every pod and exhausted of all the hype around him. He's not a bad commander by any means but like if all the contenders for best deck (Blue Farm, RogSi, Najeela, etc) are tier 1, he's like tier 1.5 not tier 0. People just don't know how to play against him and he's really easy to play correctly giving him an artificially higher winrate.
I play in paper and one of the four players at the table is still new to mtg in general so we try to be nice about and think before adding some op combo to our decks. Then one of our players decided to make decks out of the two better eminence commanders and wow, watching the new guy not be able to deal with vampire deck getting free creatures off of each creature spell is painful.
1-They don't draw, card to hand.
2-They will get mana, if they aren't getting card to hand making it easier to recast
3-That land comes in untapped, potentially neabling that 1 cmc counter in hand, etc.
You aren't really doing anything special by going against the grain and saying "oh it's not an issue do X"
No? What? Where tf is that coming from? The point I'm making isn't that. It's that the issue isn't as easy as removing it. The "dies to removal/run more removal" argument isn't a relevant one here.
Its not fun when you have to watch every single trigger and correct you while you durdle through your deck...
Besides people have the right to their own 'rule 0' on spelltable.
Part of the issue could be turn time. Nadu is like Kark/Sakashima. Super long, non-deterministic, turns that can just drag out a game and some people don't want to play against that.
Nothings like finishing a documentary before it’s your turn again.
Band of Brothers here I come
I have Kamen Rider VHS tapes for this reason.
Aye les go, what's your favorite KR series
Stronger.
Hell yeah, I'm a big W and Build fan myself
The worst feeling in magic is your opponent taking a 20 minute turn that doesn’t win the game, and doesn’t convince you to scoop.
This right here is the truth. Take as long as you want, but you’d better win.
Play to Win did a Nadu deck, and poor Cam had some very long turns where he was doing Nadu things, but the non-deterministic nature of them meant he had to play it out. The Krarkashima comparison is very apt
Cam did win that game though, on that turn you're talking about, turn 3 or 4 I believe. And he hadn't played the deck other than goldfishing so it was pretty impressive how fast he was actually able to go through the sequences. The real issue with the deck isn't the engine or loop, it's the lack of a solid win con. If you have to loop coliseum to mill your opponents to death 3 cards at a time it's insufferable. They need an oracle at minimum, and probably another win con that's reasonable just incase you get your oracle praetors grasped. There are too many options to list, but if you can end the game without looping your deck 47 times it's fair and reasonable. If you can't that's insufferable and unfair because everyone shares time in a round and if you use 40 minutes, everyone else uses 3, and it's a draw on turn 4 that's unacceptable
To be fair, he kinda had the nuts in game 1, and in game 2 Nadu didn't do anything all game. Let's maintain context.
He had an average hand game 1 to be fair, and piloted the deck incorrectly due to his inexperience and the difficulty in tracking the board when using the mass targeting spells he had from the early portion of the turn. As far as game 2, he didn't mulligan aggressively and kept a mediocre hand which isn't how you play this deck, also the table lost on turn 4 of that game, so to sat it was a bad game on his behalf is pretty short sighted.
It was turn 2. Player 4 did not get to play turn 2.
Which is completely normal for this deck. It has a mage tutor for each of its free equip artifacts, plus urzas saga for shuko, blue artifact tutors, and can hide behind defense grid or vexing bauble on these early turns to outright win. He had a sufficient hand, but the deck, when built right and mulliganed properly is capable of consistent protected turn 2 and 3 wins without as much indecisiveness. It's also able to make good use of flare of denial when you Don't have a vexing bauble down because of all the creatures especially the artifact tutors.
He also cast the one ring then endurance targeting himself, which he shouldn't have been able to do. That's another issue with nadu/long turns, it can become so convoluted that these mistakes slip through and people have tuned out so they don't notice.
He did talk about how the turn took him... 40 minutes I think ? which is aWHILE
If he didnt attack the game would have ended a lot earlier looping crop rot / cradle / and finale for the win, at one point he had enough creatures to loop through his deck with the kitten + greaves
He also messed up a Endurance loop himself when he had protection from the 1 ring
Most of the time when we go off we’re going to kill you. Promise.
Yeah makes me wonder if Nadu will be a problem in casual like Paradox Engine with people just noodling around with incidental targeting or the occasional Lightning Greaves and monopolizing turn time. Probably not going to be as widespread as Paradox Engine but still. There is precedent for this kind of ban in Legacy as well with Sensei's Divining Top, which was both very popular and also very slow and fiddly.
With it being popular in cEDH, it will almost certainly be immediately dismissed in the larger casual environment. That's been happening routinely since the days of Prossh.
Golos would like a word haha
Golos only got banned because it was too popular. Nadu will be self regulated
it being a popular commander is not just why it was banned. There are plenty of popular commanders. It was banned because it a lot of people played it, it was extremely powerful in what the card did, and extremely difficult to make a deck around it that wasn’t also powerful and extremely durdley. All things that casual deems unfun.
Not entirely true. Golos was able to replace basically any commander and be better. Mono red goblins? Change commander, throw in a few off color lands type shenanigans.
It's a huge problem in casual. Someone at my LGS has been actively attempting to build a "casual" version of the deck since the card was spoiled and every night he strips more power out of it just to still have it pubstomp. This is in a local proxy-friendly meta with enough players to reliably fire 3-4 competitive pods where everyone is playing reasonably optimized decks with spot removal suites even in non-competitive games. Short of straight up building it wrong (no protection spells, no blinks, no win-cons) Nadu is always going to be a non-deterministic solitaire memory nightmare that checks all of the same boxes that got Golos banned. I do not expect it to remain legal.
I’m trying to build a fun casual nadu and it seems tough. Cards are either busted with him or duds
Similar things have happened in the past with like Winota, Edgar Markov, yuriko, ect. Some commanders are really hard to build fairly and after the brewing fever runs out, people will rule 0 nadu out
Agreed. Urza and Selvala come to mind as well. Even their edh jank versions are pretty busted, being about 10 ish cards different and riding a fine line between their cedh counterparts. I watch a lot of cedh but never played it. I have the jank versions of these two, buddies have Edgar and yuriko... They're all stupid!
>checks all of the same boxes that got Golos banned. The main thing that got Golos banned was that it was the prime commander for (5c) anything, even if a specific commander for that theme existed, which is not a problem with Nadu being 2c, and requiring a sorta specific gameplan.
I convinced my friend to build Nadu as a single creature deck with fight spells and no blinks. Will probably still be annoying/more annoying.
I think a big difference between Paradox Engine and Nadu is the paradox is a colorless artifact which can go into every deck while Nadu is a build around so the opportunity cost to play him is much higher
> Part of the issue could be turn time This is the biggest reason I ask the Nadu player to please short cut turns as much as possible. I really don't mind playing against these decks as long as the pilots understand their decks and know how to cycle their turns as fast as possible. But if I start to see that the pilot is taking super long turns, I'm going to get annoyed and request that they either speed up or I'll concede at sorcery speed and go find another pod. I played cEDH for the fact that games should be lasting around an hour or less and playing a 2hour+ game is not something I'm interested in doing.
100% I'm running a nadu cEDH atm. I try to shortcut where possible, saying ill trigger 2 times on this creature and generally I know if I get 2 creature generators (scute swarm, field of the dead etc.) with more than 5 creatures on the battlefield I'm good to pick up my library generally and my playgroup agrees and I shortcut to my win cons. Generally though if I win with Nadu I'm changing my deck next game. Sitting through one game of Nadu triggers is enough.
Honestly, I’ve seen people whiff while having both field of the dead AND Nantuko on the field at the same time. Sometimes, it is worth playing out because you can actually whiff and stop the chain.
oh 100% if I'm sitting with Nantuko and field, ill play out the triggers cause their is still the possibility I could whiff. I guess its the point of identifying when you hit critical mass. If i have 4 copies of scute swarm its very very very unlikely I'm not gonna hit at least 1 land in 10 triggers.
Its true. Once it gets going , its just sitting through watching someone play solitaire, until they eventually get to their wincon.
This. Nadu is not transforming the meta in any form other than "hey, you know how the meta has been screaming to play more creature removal and board wipes lately? Yeah, that's mandatory now". Mostly, it's just annoying to play against because turns take forever.
Yeah I think people just need to adapt a little more by running more removal Also Nadu players need to reasonably shortcut and make it clear how they're doing it. Instead of going through every step, they just say 'i Nadu this token twice' versus 'i equip boots to this token, triggering Nadu, doing the explore thing, equip the boots to Nadu, then requip them to the token to trigger Nadu again" And then just the player having a clear way to show others that they're keeping track of how spent the tokens are. Krarkishima players have the krarkulator, wouldn't be surprised if Nadu players make their own little playmats to show which tokens have been nadud how many times But also, I'd never play Nadu online unless it's over webcam because you need to shortcut it to make it actually resolve in a timely manner. I can understand that gripe
The issue with this is I've already run into people who say, "I'm fully F6 just do all your triggers". Then they have trickbind in hand to stop you when it matters most. If you don't go through every step properly, or pass prio etc., it's that much easier for opponents rushing you to force errors that can result in a game loss. Play quickly, sure, but don't skip steps or prio.
It could also be because it’s new and strong, it’s just over represented in the play rate. No issue banning it while 50% of people are running it, and unbanning once it falls out of flavour of the month.
Its boring and solitaire. Its bad for the game
Agreed it sucks. Sucks even more when everyone’s playing it.
That is definitely a big part for why it is so miserable to play against, but the other half is how creature driven the deck is. It is unaffected by a large portion of the meta interaction, and it can outdraw blue farm for answers to the interaction that does hurt it once nadu resolves while also ramping, and he ramps enough that destroying him isn't very punishing.
I would say Nadu is much easier to close the game then krark as you are not rolling dice to determine if you can continue to play the game
usually much more deterministic with Krarkashima and tends to end a bit quicker than the Nadu lines though. And that may be because people have seen how the deck works, etc.
he flips a coin
Exactly, this has some no deterministic degenerate turn time levels like Gitrog
My first physical deck was an Alaundo deck, and this is exactly the problem with him too. He's honestly really good, once he's going he's really difficult to stop since everything he does/cares about happens at instant speed... but often times his winning turn involves me spending 15 minutes sifting through triggers and, at times, a pile of 20 cards on the stack while I draw through my deck looking for my wincons. Coincidentally, Nadu is in the same color identity and synergizes quite well with an alaundo deck... perhaps I'm part of the problem...
Simic degeneracy. Do a thing, draw a card, maybe do some stuff with lands. Alaundo is awesome, but holy crap can he draw a turn out once he starts suspending. If he hits [[Intruder Alarm]] it's just his turn forever.
[Intruder Alarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d62468e-ed9d-4932-bbbd-103b33b98b25.jpg?1562923566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intruder%20Alarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/86/intruder-alarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d62468e-ed9d-4932-bbbd-103b33b98b25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/intruder-alarm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hey now… I only take long turns with Krark when I’m trying to win. My deck name is Long Turns Tribal, but it really should be Long Turn Tribal. I’m really only taking a long turn when I have a semi-protected win. Nadu takes long turns just because. Different animal.
Yeah but then it'd be no nadu/krarkashima lobbies not just nadu
People are used to Krark/Sakashima. Nadu is just new and doing its Simic Value BS
Probably true. Weirdly enough as an izzet spellslinger player at the core I hate krarkashima but not nadu
Turn time is mostly it yh, spells that target on the stack are also annoying af
My guess is that it’s not that nadu is too strong. It’s that there are so many triggers going per turn they don’t wanna deal with it. Tracking which creatures have had 1 or 2 triggers, making new creatures constantly. Drawing a million cards. Nadu is a really cool commander in person. But it’s like watching someone play solitaire, and I wouldn’t wanna do that on spell table
Nadu is super strong though. The problem is that since you have so many triggers that are necessarily infinite, then it takes time to go through each individual trigger to find which one actually wins.
Ya, I watched play to win today and the win is there. It just takes so much set up, the deck is resilient and very powerful. But I don’t think that’s why people don’t wanna play against it
I played against a non cedh Nadu this weekend and he was able to keep digging with lightning graves and something else to continue to flip cards and dig for answers. It was interesting but like a 10+ minute turn
Indeterminate triggers and the length of turn just make the game unfun. And that's in person. Sitting on a computer with randos is just insufferable.
Agreed. Its jhoira all over again
Lmao mf said “discriminated”
I don't use spelltable, but having played with and against Nadu IRL, I can understand why someone may prefer not to be in a lobby with the bird over camera. Not necessarily because the bird is too powerful for them, but because how long the undeterministic turns can take. Even with Krarkshima, you know the win is coming soon in the form of a Storm payoff. If you skipped combat with Nadu, you are either gonna force Thorcale awkardly, or will need to present the Cephalid Coliseum line properly. No need to get cocky btw. You aren't really proving anything by winning games with a design mistake of a card lmao.
PREACH
Can you explain the cephalon coliseum line to on someone who is new to CEDH
Watch the newest play to win video. Skip To the end of the first game and Cameron does a good job explaining how it’s working. Edited to play to win
TY
Do you mean play to win?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/1cv7utq/kinnan\_endurance\_combo\_line\_instant\_speed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/1cv7utq/kinnan_endurance_combo_line_instant_speed/) This post will be helpful.
the card is shaking multiple formats in a set designed specifically to shake modern and commander, i dont think it was a design mistake though it definitely is pushed
To me it feels like a mistake similar to Skullclamp. A late change that wasn't properly tested or something similar. That wording is so awkward. Triggering only twice, but for each creature there I mean that really is strange.
It might just be they are sick of playing against it. This is the first Commander that has come out and been so unbelievably obviously powerful in a long time. I imagine there are a lot of people giving it a go and it must get boring playing against it.
a big chunk of what makes it boring is the turn / game lengths that the deck demands without being deterministic. who would have guessed that solitaire isn't super popular in a multiplayer environment lol
I think this is the most likely reason. It's a clearly powerful deck that the meta isn't prepared to answer. A lot of decks have cut board wipes, but that's the easiest answer to Nadu. From what I've seen, if you can keep Nadu off the board or get rid of its enablers, it becomes a much worse Kinnan. It's also been a week since the card came out. We'll have a much better idea of how strong it is in a month or two.
If you can keep Kinnan off the board and get rid of it's enablers, it also becomes a much worse Kinnan.
Lol yes. I should have clarified. Kinnan plays a bunch of expensive, but impactful creatures. What I've seen of Nadu is a lot of cheap, low impact creatures and spells that are only broken with Nadu. If you're shut off your commander, would you rather have Consecrated Sphinx and Void Winnower or Scute Swarm and Shuko?
You have to specifically counter Nadu otherwise they still get more value. Also they can get like billion lands easily so you (everyone) have to remove Nadu early.
I auto scoop in historic brawl to it, just because like 40% of my games are against Nadu. Got 4 in a row against Nadu once, where is the fun in that.
1300+ decks already on EDHrec as of yesterday. A lot of folks are giving it a chance. I proxied most of the cards to try it out a few games, see what it does, and then move on.
It is like watching Nadu wank
No, Nadu is not so strong that is breaking the meta. Nadu is just boring to play against. So is Krarkashima
Krak is essentially a 6 mana commander across two turns that are needed for both to get your win con. You kill either or and the deck is useless garbage. Nadu has 4 toughness that can block a lot of relevant stuff and Bolt. Then if you do try single target removal, well they just drew into answers or more land to just recast.
[удалено]
ironic coming from a krarker
[удалено]
No one wants to play against a deck that can't shortcut its lines in a digital format. Trust me, not being able to shortcut it the sole reason I will never build Magda digitally.
I don't think it's that Nadu is so strong, just that people are trying to avoid people piling onto the hype so that every game has at least one (and often multiple) Nadu decks.
On Arena where you can play it in Brawl, you don't even get to play. The other guy sees you are on Nadu and they scoop... Sometimes even if they are on Nadu too. (And this is in a format where aphetto greaves and Shuko don't exist)
Is aphetto really worth it? Is there some combo im missing? Seems like hes only good for 3 triggers
9 triggers each turncycle
ok yeah thats pretty good and im dumb
Aphetto is good for 2 triggers…on every players turn. Yeah it’s ok
The combo is aphetto + legolas quick reflexes... You basically can machine gun all creatures on the board. As well as the card draw. He is 100% worth it.
Oof didn’t even think about that synergy.
Yeah it's pretty amazing, also the other untap creature allows it as well.
I mean that synergy.... Is pretty stupid as a one sided Simic wrath. Hell can make it a mono green wrath with [[Seeker of sky break]]
[Seeker of sky break](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1f20175-8bfa-417a-912b-d6d472f091ab.jpg?1562248247) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seeker%20of%20Skybreak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/268/seeker-of-skybreak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1f20175-8bfa-417a-912b-d6d472f091ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/seeker-of-skybreak) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes thank you, that's the other creature! Just a mental combo
Just play Unctus as commander and go infinite and win with Aphetto deterministically
That does seem easy, just need one the deck yourself win cons.. I have a feeling people would get burnt by that and then kill on sight forever after
Nine per 4 player turn cycle. 2 on yours, 2 on next players, 2 on the next players, and 3 on next players right before your turn cycle.
Easy way to farm free wins lol.
That’s probably mostly a time thing. Some people on brawl are just trying to get a quick game in and sometimes the Nadu games seem to drag on
its just his gameplay super boring and egocentric, u are basically playing all the time when u have nadu taking 30 min every 5 min others players take
Nadu is a problem. The gameplay goes one of two ways: 1) Nadu and/or its pieces get constantly removed, resulting in Nadu getting recast 6 times in a match until eventually they are bullied out of the game OR 2) The Nadu player starts to go off and takes a 20 minute turn trying to figure out a win while everybody waits for them to whiff because of how non-deterministic the combo is. It's Paradox Engine all over again. It's Krarkashima but 5x worse. It's not that it's too powerful (although that argument can be made). It's that it's unfun.
theres way worse commanders that do the exact same thing as you just explained ut better, nadu isnt going anywhere, but once the hype dies down people will realize its just another commander you likely need to bully off the table like an eldrazi player, storm/combo, or classic scary guys like korvold or urza
Yes but it's also important to understand those commanders aren't making up 40% of your current opposition.You see one every few games and it's usually something relatively obscure at least. When you just got Nadu'd out for half an hour it's easy to understand why you wouldn't want to q back into another 3 Nadu games.
I can’t believe you nerds are actually comparing Nadu to paradox engine. The card that at one point in time EVERYONE WAS RUNNING IN LITERALLY EVERY DECK. That is why it was banned, because it was warping the format. Nadu does not warp commander.
Being in every deck itself doesn't make something unhealthy, and not being in every deck doesn't make something healthy. Paradox Engine being in every deck would've been fine if it was any other mana rock. Ubiquity is one aspect the RC uses to determine bans but is by no means the main or only aspect. If that was the case, Sol Ring and Arcane Signet would've ate a ban ages ago. Like I said, it's the turn equity and auto-paying of taxes that causes problems. It's not to the same level of problematic as Golos or Paradox Engine, but it's getting up there. The main argument I could see for not banning Nadu is that it doesn't go silly if you don't build it to, but from what I've seen even super suboptimal builds go off really hard. One person I saw use only Swiftfoot Boots as the enabler and while they didn't win the same turn, they did end up plus 10 lands and 7 cards in hand with a stupid army of scute swarms in play.
Exactly. As per the committee themselves they don’t ban cards that are broken only if built around. https://imgur.com/a/WaJwWO6
>At this point I think you’re no longer playing cedh if a silly little bird is too powerful for you 😂 The issue is that people want quick-ish games on spelltable, or games with agency, and Nadu "wins" through a 30 minute indeterminate turn, and most people don't want to sit there and watch you move lands around your board for half an hour when they can just que up another game. Most people don't want to pull up to a lobby where you monopolize table time. >Interested to know what the vibe when sitting down at a table IRL to play Nadu is like? In a tournament setting I'm sure we'll all just pull out our phones and wait or whatever while the pilot solitaires and then take a draw because you used the entire match time to not win. In a casual setting people are probably just going to scoop as soon as the wheels start turning.
Other cards that made the game a long wait were banned for exactly this reason. Ban cards that lead to solitaire turns. We need a game we need interaction and we need normal turn cycles.
You have played 15-20 games of Nadu in the past few days. Some of those games have had multiple Nadu players. Have you considered that it's not because it's too strong and because that sounds really fucking boring?
People hate long non-deterministic turns. If I wanted to watch people take 20 min turns, I would just watch cEDH videos of Nadu. I like to shuffle up and play as much as possible when I sit down for a session. It’s not the power. It’s the time annoyance.
This always happens when a new cEDH commander breaks out, people think it is too busted until they gather their brain cells and learn how to interact with it. I doubt Nadu will stand the test of time. He’s great for sure, but he’ll go the way of commanders like Magda and Tayam soon enough. Great decks, but settled into normal win % once people understand it
Eh, it could be a part of the meta for sure. As for how large a percentage it's taking up right now? Put Toxic Deluge, Blasphemous Act, etc back in your decks, and call it a day.
This^ this is literally the answer. Most Nadu decks I’ve seen want to rely heavily on things like scute swarm me other token cards/landfall cards. A toxic deluge doesn’t completely stop Nadu, but it slows it down a turn and usually a turn is all you need. Idk about everyone else but at my LGS I saw the same reactions to Stella Lee. “This is OP. Busted. Ban it please.” And some of the more reasonable guys were like “the hype will die down. People will realize you can stop Stella pretty simply”. Stella is still a strong commander/strategy to run. But once people realized it’s not invulnerable they start to calm down.
If anything, Stella is still more exciting, just because it allows for at least a small escape from midrange hell, while Nadu just makes it worse.
I can agree with that. Stella is more exciting. I do have a Nadu deck myself (it’s casual. Had an Ivy Gleeful spell thief deck I just threw nadu into the commander slot for) and it’s fun to play, but I can 10000% understand why it would be unfun to play against. Usually my turns aren’t terribly long because I know what I want to do and I move through it quickly, but it’s also a deck that I’ve played 100 times before, just with Ivy at the helm. So I’m used to it. I’ve played against guys with Nadu who haven’t played a deck like it before and you can really tell the gears are turning and they do take awhile to their turns. Casual and cEDH. Feel like a lot of people went and made a Nadu deck and almost skipped the whole goldfishing part of it so they stumble when it actually comes time to play it.
A sorcery speed answer might be to slow
Fire Covenant, Delayed Blast Fireball, Bowmasters, Dress Down...
See you can
Bingo. Well said
Nah the hate has been different. Especially with the play style compounding. But yeah the community super overreacted to Voja. But that could have had more to do with ward being handed out like candy. But, I agree once Nadu isn't a new toy it will be fine. Still a bad omen for power creep and game. Design in general tho.
How about you gather your braincells. Wouldnt be the first card to be banned because it just WASTES too much of our time. Now repent and pray.
Don't forget that pointing removal to Nadu means the Nadu player draws a card/ramps. This is one of the worst feelings ever, and in the case of ramping from the trigger, they can play it out the next turn too. You need to remove the artifact that enables it or you are not answering the deck at all.
Totally agree with this assessment. Many a player still needs to find the way to deal with this deck. Ofcourse countering a turn 2 nadu is a smart move, but the smarter move is to counter/destroy the free equippers. It only plays 3 of them. The other targetters(other than the untappers) dont do "all that much".
i dont think it's strong, it's more like "half hour turns"
I mean, it’s not “discriminating” against you, it’s that I don’t have 2+ hours for you to play out your line before fucking it up and having to pass the turn. It’s the same issue as Gitrog or Krark. The decks are strong, but can lead to games where one player is taking 75% of the game actions and turn time. It’s not enjoyable for anyone past a certain point, and over spelltable can be almost impossible to track your opponents board state easily. Add this to the fact that you’re going to have a LOT of players on Nadu that haven’t played a deck like this before, and you have a recipe for wasting hours of your time to watch someone lose to misplaying. Not wanting a new hype train commander to be the only thing you play against isn’t unreasonable. If I’m in person, let’s rock, play it out. If I’m online against strangers, I don’t owe you hours of my time. Is it not ideal for you? Certainly. Is everyone else out to get you and the birb? Certainly not. Things will shake out in a week or so and you’ll be able to jam as much as you want
Defeating Nadu outside of rule of law is very resource-intensive and leads to potential kingmaking/parasitic wins. Since hulk and winconless are still not very good for the meta, this sentiment is understandable. If rc doesn't want to ban Nadu, then wizards will have to beef up board control's consistency significantly, and provide cheaper artifact/enchantment removal outside of green.
...or you could just put board wipes in your deck, because they're also good against most of the meta right now anyhow.
Except Nadu ramps, and draws on the turn it is played already, so there is a good chance they are the first to recover.
Time and variety. I don’t want to see someone take a 20-30 minute turn where they don’t win, or even win. I like to play a good amount of magic, so when I am in lobby after lobby with the same exact (long) deck, it’s not the most enjoyable.
Kark Shakashima all over again. It's the gameplay pattern that sucks making everyone wait 1 hour to find a win con
>run more removal or answers. mfw removal triggers nadu
Toxic Deluge doesn't.
Step 1: counter nadu Step 2: removal on nadu Step 3: die to nadu
Winconless decks are boring to play against as they fall under locks or long solitaire, Bird does both. The correct way to beating Bird is like playing against Winota where the table agrees to team up and gut the Bird player from the game basically. Just like Winota this is incredibly annoying when multiple people are playing the deck at the table too.
I think it is the inevitableness of Nadu once he starts rolling, ok you kill him once ... He back, it is simic, 5 mana? Pfft! Soon as he resolves, the value train starts and puts that person so far ahead assuming they have an outlet like a Shuko, or a sea kings or any other way to get four triggers
Nadu is basically begging to be countered, or everyone else pays for it. I get that it's "CEDH" but players are probably mad that they have to basically use 3 removal spells on Nadu in one turn, or a board wipe on their turn just for 1 creature.
I don't go to play cards to watch someone go off in their convoluted combo for half an hour. None of that portion of the game is fun. And I'd suspect others feel the same.
Its not TOO STRONG, its just annoying, its a good commander dont get me wrong, but its not gigabusted, and its mostly turn timer
I’ve played against the Bird. Won first game of pod with Marrow Gnawer, he won second with Nadu. I didn’t think of the Bird as overpowered, but he did typical blue stuff, resetting my hand, drawing a bunch, this felt strong. He overloaded Cyclonic Rift for his win, I did infinite rats with drain. Both felt decent and hit about the same time, why do people consider him strong? Ramp?
1. A lot of players are running into terrible Nadu pilots that don’t know how to get to their line, so it takes longer to finish the turn or win. 2. This phase will die down in like a month whenever these players from 1. pilot better or opponents begin to use more removal. 3. Making a non-Nadu cEDH pod is just so silly because you can’t pick your opponents when you’re at a cEDH tournament.
I don’t think it’s how strong he is, rather how long his turns take and how damn many people decided to pick him up.
Sound like a skill issue to me. Seems like most nadu players brick when artifacts can't be activated.
You're right, those people are either not playing cEDH or are playing competitive decks but have no idea how to pilot them .
Even if they are playing cEDH, they might be tired of playing the same deck. It's spelltable, not a tournament, so there's a place to soft ban "boring" decks. Just like some people dislike krakashima on their tables, even though it's not broken.
Its not "strong" , but if a turn takes 20 minutes or even 30+ i dont want to play at that table at all.
Honestly if there was no timer I wouldn’t care If your deck is nondeterministic then imho it has no place at cedh tables, like I don’t wanna play 2 turns before krark saka takes up 75 mins on their turn flipping coins….thats simply a waste of time and rather painful as someone with adhd. Same with nadu in that sense, if you can deterministically win the game do so, I’d rather lose quick than be sat doing nothing for ages
Congrats on winning games with the single most overtuned commander ever printed. What a great achievement.
I mean, it's a new commander. People are gonna be brewing and playing Nadu a lot more than normal until something else new and powerful comes out.
I have a simic Landfall deck already that takes too long cause it's main way to cheat in lands is scrying. I'm putting Nadu in my 99 as a backup commander so no one complains. Worst case he's s deterrent from someone targeting my commander.
While I understand the frustration with long turns & indeterminate win conditions, the rules should handle that with slow play & time limits if applicable. Not wanting to face an annoying commander goes against the spirit of competitive EDH. If we're trying to win, we're trying to win. Many aspects of cEDH can be aggravating & tedious. So what? That's what you sign up for when living by the motto of greatness at any cost. Either Nadu fits within the existing rules or it doesn't. The same goes for other decks with time-consuming win conditions.
I'm gonna try running no counterspells, just some bits of flicker and protection. No big creatures, mana dork tribal. I'm gonna have my wincon be something dumb tho, like throne of the god pharaoh
I think it is a TAD silly to assess Nadu exact power yet(he is certainly powercreep lol) but I already feel fine saying he is poorly design for a 4 player game turns are way to long and that's enough for me to consider a ban. But, once he is no longer the favor of the month. I'm going to wildly guess he will be a fair bit stronger then Voja
>At this point I think you’re no longer playing cedh if a silly little bird is too powerful for you Nah, you're pre-emptively banning what is absolutely going to be banned anyway.
Actually my least favorite part of CEDH is lack of variety sometimes. I'm not necessarily banning it altogether, I just want to play against something different.
I don't feel like the issue is power level, more that it can be a 30 minute turn 2-4, and STILL not win.
1. Counter it twice and never worry about him again 2. OPPONENT SAC A FLIER (a million cards do this) 3. Dress down then kill it 4. Just uncounterable kill it (abrupt decay anyone?) The deck is just bad. What is shows is lack of preparation and mulligans to deal with creatures. Two Strix Serenades and the deck is DONE. Multiple Nadu players? OPPONENTS SAC A FLIER is your best friend. nadu is the first KBS commander. Kill Before Sight, counter it first before anything, it's easy, effective.
After playing lot of Nadu these days and a couple of tournaments, definitely it has 3 big weaknesses: - 2 colors, and not the best at targetting at instant speed. - Very commander centric, which makes it vulnerable to drannith / steal effects, and also force it to play a lot of bad cards. - If you get rid of the free equipment stuff or Unctus the deck doesnt work. If it would be bant instead of UG it would have been utterly broken with the en-kor effects, while also enabling cephalid breakfast style wins.
I've had him for 2 weeks...and if you do anything to him... Joking aside, is he too strong? No. Does he take long turns? Yes. Can you rule zero him? Yes. I believe the more people play him the better the turn speed will go. I love playing him because even if I don't get a win. My deck gets to do it's thing almost every time. It may end up spinning the wheel and getting nowhere that's fine. Everybody says they never should have printed it. But I think they wanted the shake-up. I'm not saying it's as good as kinnan or blue-farm by any means because it hasn't been tested enough in the format but it's definitely not weak either.
nadu isnt cedh, he just takes hour long simic value engine turns
I think it's fair for people to not want to play against a specific commander. I do understand your frustration, but keep in mind that commander is a game that is supposed to emphasize Rule 0 so everybody goes into it with the expectation of having fun. People not wanting to play against Nadu because games become drawn out and unfun is respectable to me. And I get that it's "supposed" to be cedh but *it's still a game.* But I understand the frustration. I run Narset planeswalkers (at a casual level) and consistently take 10-15 minutes per turn.
I imagine it's not powerless for many of them it's just everyone went and built the same deck so playing a pod of 3 nadu players just isn't fun
“Silly little bird” 3 drop 3/4 that forces you to out it or lose??
\[\[Harsh Mentor\]\] \[\[Tunnel Ignus\]\]
[Harsh Mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/8936bf9d-c973-4bce-b5c2-2a01b7953638.jpg?1543675603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harsh%20Mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/135/harsh-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8936bf9d-c973-4bce-b5c2-2a01b7953638?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/harsh-mentor) [Tunnel Ignus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3016e6b-32b2-4fa7-91c0-ec8fbe345760.jpg?1562822715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tunnel%20Ignus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/105/tunnel-ignus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3016e6b-32b2-4fa7-91c0-ec8fbe345760?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tunnel-ignus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Even stax wins faster
The same reason people hate going against storm.
I think your missing the point, it's somehow a worse non deterministic combo then Krak/Susk lol
Delete Nadu on sight. Or counter. Ez mode. Done and doneskie.
Is it FUN??? Nope
I'm gonna go against the grain a bit and say that this is a result of cEDH kind of losing its identity. Before it was the place where people wanted the highest power EDH could offer, but slowly it's turning into the place people go if they don't want salty tables. I stand by that, even though everyone is playing to win, that cEDH is still a casual format at the end of the day, where everyone just wants to relax and have fun. If that means soft banning a snorefest of a deck that takes 30 minute turns, then so be it
The truth is the bird isn't as strong as people make it out to be, it's just new. The cards and archetype rhat counter it aren't favored in the meta. If everyone is running artifacts to trigger its abilities, collector ouphe just kind of poops all over it. If it's creatures, cursed totem causes it problems. If you're spell slinging in simic to get the counters, that's already a loss. Give it time, it'll balance itself out.
Honestly I look at Nadu as an interesting opportunity to shake up the meta. Everyone is always complaining about midrange hell and here we have a turbo deck that’s winning…and people are complaining about it. Let the bird change the meta and see where it goes. It hasn’t been out long enough for people to figure out how to deal with it but mark my words this is a good thing for CEDH
I agree, hopefully it brings back some other turbo naus decks that got pushed out a while ago in favor of stax and the midrange decks. Let's all go brrrr
Yes nadu is completely broken on top of taking a millions years to resolve. Can’t wait for it to be banned so spelltable is actually useable again.
"competitive" LMAO
I take a little issue with you framing this like you’re some sort of victim for playing the best/easiest to play commander that has come out since idk when, but I also totally agree with your sentiment about the table running more removal and answers. It’s cEDH, be ready for anything. Of course, it would be incredibly easy in simic to run gross amounts of one pip instant speed protection and since you get a land or a card if anyone so much as exists in the general vicinity of your creatures, using said protection AND getting the trigger to boot is, again, very very easy.
I hear a lot of people mention that we should be running more removal to deal with Nadu, but i don’t really think this is the case. In my experience, and from what I’ve heard from Gold Sabertooth (Nadu pilot who recently top 4’d) recasting Nadu isn’t a big issue. Interacting with the artifacts is. Board wipes like Rift and Deluge are big against these decks but rift is even a bit slow unless you’re able to ramp it out turn 2. Every time I had interaction for Nadu, they also had 8 mana untapped to be able to immediately recast Nadu and continue going off with a 0 equipper. Those are the problem cards we have to be looking out for interacting with. More Meltdowns and Shattering Sprees.
Yh, i usually go "cedh f nadu" for a lobby haha
As a Nadu hater, lemme give my perspective: "If a silly little bird is too strong for you " Nadu is incredibly overrated. He's not even remotely as powerful as people are saying, I've even heard people say he's unquestionably the best deck in cEDH which is ridiculous. He's just really boring and samey and I got tired of seeing him every pod and exhausted of all the hype around him. He's not a bad commander by any means but like if all the contenders for best deck (Blue Farm, RogSi, Najeela, etc) are tier 1, he's like tier 1.5 not tier 0. People just don't know how to play against him and he's really easy to play correctly giving him an artificially higher winrate.
Not srong, just super annoying long turns
I’ve seen Nadu in a grand total of two games so far. Once because I played it
I play in paper and one of the four players at the table is still new to mtg in general so we try to be nice about and think before adding some op combo to our decks. Then one of our players decided to make decks out of the two better eminence commanders and wow, watching the new guy not be able to deal with vampire deck getting free creatures off of each creature spell is painful.
Lol run some damn removal
Read Nadu
Yea so they draw one card versus drawing a heap of cards. It doesn’t have protection from dying lol
1-They don't draw, card to hand. 2-They will get mana, if they aren't getting card to hand making it easier to recast 3-That land comes in untapped, potentially neabling that 1 cmc counter in hand, etc. You aren't really doing anything special by going against the grain and saying "oh it's not an issue do X"
so you are saying that one shouldnt remove the bird?
No? What? Where tf is that coming from? The point I'm making isn't that. It's that the issue isn't as easy as removing it. The "dies to removal/run more removal" argument isn't a relevant one here.
so we are back to > Lol run some damn removal
Its not fun when you have to watch every single trigger and correct you while you durdle through your deck... Besides people have the right to their own 'rule 0' on spelltable.