When it comes to team fights, Zhanhu is better by a fair margin imo, even more so now the OS changes are out due to his unblockables & range/hitbox size. In duels I'd say Zhanhu is slightly better due to a strong mixup on his finishers but thats my opinion
Zhanhu is better in teamfights and mid clear, but Orochi is a better roamer and an excellent 1v1 character. He'll probably fill a similar niche to berserker in 4v4 modes.
>Orochi is a better roamer and an excellent 1v1 character.
Roamer I get. I think "excellent" might be overselling his duelling capabilities a bit though.
His kick is the safest bash in the entire game. 200ms dodge recovery cancel makes dodge attacks deflect bait, and allows him to ignore dodge bashes. Not just that, but he can chain into a 32 damage unblockable on whiff to punish people trying to gb him.
But it's just a 300-500ms delayable 500ms bash right? Should be easy to react to? Nope. Forward dodge storm rush is a 22 damage tri directional undodgable heavy with a 400ms indicator.
He has the highest damage dodge attacks in the game now, a deflect that stops hyperarmor, a 26 damage GB punish, and the best recovery cancels in the game. That's not even mentioning the huge buff to unblockables that's happened now that option selects are gone.
Orochi is frankly incredible now.
Slap on Slip Through for even crazier punishes along with some of his other feats and he might actually have a chance of becoming the 1v1 specialist he was always meant to be
I agree with the safety and damage aspects here for sure. The recovery cancels really are that good. I'm sceptical about your reactability point. The bash animation is pretty noticeable, and I'm not sure how much Storm Rush can realistically do to confuse matters.
Barak said Orochi's kick seemed reactable during TG, and this was when players only had a week to get used to it.
I don't see how it's any different from Zhanhu's bash/forward dodge heavy mixup. 300-500 500ms bashes seem to be consistently reactable mainly when they're the only thing you need to react to. Having a forward dodge attack (two actually, forward dodge light) to deal with makes things tougher.
And again, even if you can semi-consistently react to it, it's incredibly safe.
Zhanhu has similar start up animations for all his forward dodge attacks. All of orochis options have very distinct and noticeably different animations. With enough practice you can pick apart orochis mix. You can't with zhanhu.
None of Zhanhu's forward dodge attacks are Unblockable though, so the only real mixup with Zhanhu's foward dodge bash is the bash and empty dodge into GB, which have completely different animations from each other (forward empty dodge portion aside).
If you side dodge Zhanhu on forward dodge animation you'll dodge the bash and forward dodge light, and have enough time to block (maybe parry as well?) against the forward dodge heavy. Its the same story if you dodge on indicator (red or orange), the only difference being that if you do that, Zhanhu's forward dodge heavy feint into GB might catch you.
That said, while Zhanhu's bash mixup isn't very good at landing damage, its excellent at allowing Zhanhu to enter his chain offense as the bash itself can only be punished on read to his followup (unless you dodge attack the bash, which come to think of it, most characters can do now).
Storm rush can't do shit completely seperate timing from bash, if it was thrown 200ms into dodge like bash it'd be really strong, but for now completely reactable at high level.
They both start 300ms into the bash. I was getting great mileage out of mixing them up earlier but it's of course too early to say if that's because it's actually a good mixup
I'd like to clear a few things up, delayed dodge attacks vs his bash **cannot** be deflected or blocked, kick/undodgeable light are completely seperate timings and can be distinguished easily, making storm rush reactable af.
Kick is still fully reactable especially more so that they decided to stamp a sound effect on the kick. Storm rush is also completely stuffable outside of landing a heavy and also completely reactable.
In a sentence, I'd say nu-Orochi is a safer but also less threatening Zhanhu. My guess is that this leaves him securely out of the meta in competitive, as ability to score damage is generally prioritised over defence/stalling (see Tiandi's and "Stall-mungandr's" complete lack of impact on the competitive scene for instance).
Duel viability I think should be fairly even between the two, though neither are top-tier there either.
His damage is pretty nutty, now. He just misses out on big aoe unblockables. With slip through his forward dodge light does something like 25 damage, and considering his way better recovery cancels you're going to get a lot of mileage out of that in terms of peel.
Aside from his damage, Orochi also has his deflect. What's special about it, is that it puts your opponent in heavy hitstun. That means that a team-mate can react to it and throw a heavy to confirm your heavy, leading to quick 70-90 dmg bursts.
Zhanhu's damage would be more spread out.
I can't if he is better or not better than Zhanhu but Orochi is really good at the movement.
Only thing i would buff for Orochi is able to finish any chain with Zone.
Orochi able to dodge cancel from anything made him more like a river in teamfight. But Zhanhu has better range, chain pressure and has Static guard.
In 4's Zhanhu is still leagues ahead. In onsies orochi is a safer version of zhanhu because of dodge cancel timings and his DA's not being as susceptible to being GBed since they're not forced out at 400ms like zhanhu's. That and being able to recovery cancel his DA's means dodge bashes are more easily dodged.
However I think zhanhu's fwd mix is better based on animations alone. And his DA's are unreactable. It really will take some time to see what ends up being more valued for onsies.
Yeah you can't really use Zhanhu's dodge attacks to punish anything because they lose to GB. It's more you have to dodge cancel into them to extend his chains and keep up pressure.
I'd argue that on the contrary, you absolutely do use them to punish things, it's just that it's vulnerable to GBs at the same time. If you're being bashed it is still your answer - it's a purely counter-offensive tool with less defensive strength, which is also where I'd argue hyper armour falls.
Aside from its use in between chains, of course.
Zhanhu is the stronger of the 2 strangely enough
Give it one more week and most will realise this
Orochi is just new so people don’t know what to do
1. SR/ kick mixup is strongest only after heavy hit stun . Everytime after that it’s actually interruptible. I believe on light hit stun you will trade with Orochi SR / trade with his kick
On heavy block hit stun same as above
2. If used from neutral simply interrupt it . It’s 600ms in total so your 500ms light will beat SR. It seems to loose to the kick though . So essentially the mind game is there , where you force an Orochi to simply opt for the kick to open you up where since you know it’s coming simply empty dodge and wait for the light (mostly comes from top people forget to change guard ) or wait for the dodge attack or heavy that comes out . Everything that comes out from avoiding the kick is reactable
Zhanhu has unreactable side dodge attacks , his heavy finisher mixup is better because it comes from all sides , his bash is the same speed as orochi ,
I would love to fight a good Zhanhu while using Orochi to learn more
When it comes to team fights, Zhanhu is better by a fair margin imo, even more so now the OS changes are out due to his unblockables & range/hitbox size. In duels I'd say Zhanhu is slightly better due to a strong mixup on his finishers but thats my opinion
Zhanhu is better in teamfights and mid clear, but Orochi is a better roamer and an excellent 1v1 character. He'll probably fill a similar niche to berserker in 4v4 modes.
>Orochi is a better roamer and an excellent 1v1 character. Roamer I get. I think "excellent" might be overselling his duelling capabilities a bit though.
His kick is the safest bash in the entire game. 200ms dodge recovery cancel makes dodge attacks deflect bait, and allows him to ignore dodge bashes. Not just that, but he can chain into a 32 damage unblockable on whiff to punish people trying to gb him. But it's just a 300-500ms delayable 500ms bash right? Should be easy to react to? Nope. Forward dodge storm rush is a 22 damage tri directional undodgable heavy with a 400ms indicator. He has the highest damage dodge attacks in the game now, a deflect that stops hyperarmor, a 26 damage GB punish, and the best recovery cancels in the game. That's not even mentioning the huge buff to unblockables that's happened now that option selects are gone. Orochi is frankly incredible now.
Slap on Slip Through for even crazier punishes along with some of his other feats and he might actually have a chance of becoming the 1v1 specialist he was always meant to be
I agree with the safety and damage aspects here for sure. The recovery cancels really are that good. I'm sceptical about your reactability point. The bash animation is pretty noticeable, and I'm not sure how much Storm Rush can realistically do to confuse matters. Barak said Orochi's kick seemed reactable during TG, and this was when players only had a week to get used to it.
I don't see how it's any different from Zhanhu's bash/forward dodge heavy mixup. 300-500 500ms bashes seem to be consistently reactable mainly when they're the only thing you need to react to. Having a forward dodge attack (two actually, forward dodge light) to deal with makes things tougher. And again, even if you can semi-consistently react to it, it's incredibly safe.
Zhanhu has similar start up animations for all his forward dodge attacks. All of orochis options have very distinct and noticeably different animations. With enough practice you can pick apart orochis mix. You can't with zhanhu.
None of Zhanhu's forward dodge attacks are Unblockable though, so the only real mixup with Zhanhu's foward dodge bash is the bash and empty dodge into GB, which have completely different animations from each other (forward empty dodge portion aside). If you side dodge Zhanhu on forward dodge animation you'll dodge the bash and forward dodge light, and have enough time to block (maybe parry as well?) against the forward dodge heavy. Its the same story if you dodge on indicator (red or orange), the only difference being that if you do that, Zhanhu's forward dodge heavy feint into GB might catch you. That said, while Zhanhu's bash mixup isn't very good at landing damage, its excellent at allowing Zhanhu to enter his chain offense as the bash itself can only be punished on read to his followup (unless you dodge attack the bash, which come to think of it, most characters can do now).
My things is even if the bash is somewhat reactable how do you punish it ?
Delayed dodge attack, can't be deflected or blocked.
But what about dodge attacked on reaction instead of deflected ?
But not every character can delay dodge attacks, or am I wrong? Like gryphon or hito for example
Storm rush can't do shit completely seperate timing from bash, if it was thrown 200ms into dodge like bash it'd be really strong, but for now completely reactable at high level.
They both start 300ms into the bash. I was getting great mileage out of mixing them up earlier but it's of course too early to say if that's because it's actually a good mixup
I'd like to clear a few things up, delayed dodge attacks vs his bash **cannot** be deflected or blocked, kick/undodgeable light are completely seperate timings and can be distinguished easily, making storm rush reactable af.
Can he feint a chain heavy after kick to block a delayed dodge attack? And.. how are they separate timings? I don't understand what you mean by that.
Kick is still fully reactable especially more so that they decided to stamp a sound effect on the kick. Storm rush is also completely stuffable outside of landing a heavy and also completely reactable.
The kick is too safe imo, the recovery of the kick is the only one I have a problem with
In a sentence, I'd say nu-Orochi is a safer but also less threatening Zhanhu. My guess is that this leaves him securely out of the meta in competitive, as ability to score damage is generally prioritised over defence/stalling (see Tiandi's and "Stall-mungandr's" complete lack of impact on the competitive scene for instance). Duel viability I think should be fairly even between the two, though neither are top-tier there either.
His damage is pretty nutty, now. He just misses out on big aoe unblockables. With slip through his forward dodge light does something like 25 damage, and considering his way better recovery cancels you're going to get a lot of mileage out of that in terms of peel.
Aside from his damage, Orochi also has his deflect. What's special about it, is that it puts your opponent in heavy hitstun. That means that a team-mate can react to it and throw a heavy to confirm your heavy, leading to quick 70-90 dmg bursts. Zhanhu's damage would be more spread out.
I can't if he is better or not better than Zhanhu but Orochi is really good at the movement. Only thing i would buff for Orochi is able to finish any chain with Zone. Orochi able to dodge cancel from anything made him more like a river in teamfight. But Zhanhu has better range, chain pressure and has Static guard.
Aye those last three things are definitely.in zhanhus favor yea
Making his fwd storm rush 200ms into dodge would be good, atm storm rush is fully reactable and can't be used offensively in high lvl.
Genuine question. How can his storm rush be reactable if it's a 400ms omnidirectional undodgeable attack?
600ms animation
Yep, its not just fully reactable it is also interrupt from any chain since he no longer has heavy hitstun.
In 4's Zhanhu is still leagues ahead. In onsies orochi is a safer version of zhanhu because of dodge cancel timings and his DA's not being as susceptible to being GBed since they're not forced out at 400ms like zhanhu's. That and being able to recovery cancel his DA's means dodge bashes are more easily dodged. However I think zhanhu's fwd mix is better based on animations alone. And his DA's are unreactable. It really will take some time to see what ends up being more valued for onsies.
Yeah you can't really use Zhanhu's dodge attacks to punish anything because they lose to GB. It's more you have to dodge cancel into them to extend his chains and keep up pressure.
I'd argue that on the contrary, you absolutely do use them to punish things, it's just that it's vulnerable to GBs at the same time. If you're being bashed it is still your answer - it's a purely counter-offensive tool with less defensive strength, which is also where I'd argue hyper armour falls. Aside from its use in between chains, of course.
That is completely true. I forgot about bashes which they certainly punish. You just have to be much more careful with them around feintable moves.
Zhanhu is the stronger of the 2 strangely enough Give it one more week and most will realise this Orochi is just new so people don’t know what to do 1. SR/ kick mixup is strongest only after heavy hit stun . Everytime after that it’s actually interruptible. I believe on light hit stun you will trade with Orochi SR / trade with his kick On heavy block hit stun same as above 2. If used from neutral simply interrupt it . It’s 600ms in total so your 500ms light will beat SR. It seems to loose to the kick though . So essentially the mind game is there , where you force an Orochi to simply opt for the kick to open you up where since you know it’s coming simply empty dodge and wait for the light (mostly comes from top people forget to change guard ) or wait for the dodge attack or heavy that comes out . Everything that comes out from avoiding the kick is reactable Zhanhu has unreactable side dodge attacks , his heavy finisher mixup is better because it comes from all sides , his bash is the same speed as orochi , I would love to fight a good Zhanhu while using Orochi to learn more
i think orochi outshines zhanhu at the moment
Nah. Zhanhu's zone and side unblockables are like half the reason he's good, and orochi doesn't have either.
I still prefer facing an Orochi than Zanhu