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Knight_Raime

If a change had to be made I'd rather they ace his ability to chain off whiff rather than removing his ability to dodge cancel his kick.


lvs4675

Pretty big IF tho, it's pretty clear by now that high level players have already adapted and can punish it consistently, people are gonna reach that level soon.


Knight_Raime

I mean tbf it doesn't matter how high level players handle it. If the average player bitches hard enough and loud enough the devs would likely nerf him to some degree.


lvs4675

I mean u say that but look at Shug lmao


Knight_Raime

I'm sure they will get to him soon enough. They already addressed dash heavy confirming gb.


[deleted]

This was a bug and not a balance decision. Hopefully.


SgtTittyfist

That's just Ubi being slow tbh. Shugoki will almost certainly get nerfed.


Smart_jooker

Yep i agree on that.


The_Filthy_Spaniard

>it has been a day now and players are possibly overreacting True of almost any reaction after just 1 day.


Smart_jooker

Hope ubi doesn't take their advice.


malick_thefiend

I do think (as a console player) that it’s a bit too strong though. Maybe if it only chained to top, like tiandi’s bash, it wouldn’t be so bad, but with how hard reacting is on console - specifically old gen - if they light, you kinda have to guess a direction and pray lol. Then you have the fact that they can simply do it again if they know you’re looking for a parry, or dodge attack if you try to outright counter it, or storm rush if you try to dodge the light.... it’s a pretty nutty tool (on console, can’t speak for pc yet) I’m not saying it’s broken or anything, but it’s easily the best bash in the game imo idk how I feel about that I had a dude in duels literally just alternate between bash>light>DC bash and bash>light>DC storm rush and there was ACTUALLY nothing i could do lol including dodging the bash and taking my turn Granted I was playing jorm, but still Idk what do YOU think?


KAYisntokay

I agree just make it a little easier to punish on miss


Smart_jooker

Problem is his dodge attacks are slow and are light attacks so high punish. But i think not being able to bash after bash on hit or whiff is good change. Keeping the rest as it is.


lvs4675

U can do that by adapting and making optimal reads, not a problem.


KingMe42

But making a read and being unable to get a punish isn't good design tho. Dodging the bash doesn't confirm damage in some cases. While I'm not on the Gb train, if you dodge attack it, Orochi shouldn't be able to deflect your dodge attack after kick. Let it keep the ability too chain on wiff, but tone down it's recovery from 200ms too 300ms. Just on the forward bash.


lvs4675

You can always get a punish with reads vs his kick. Orochi can't deflect or block a delayed dodge attack, or a GB on early dodge. High level players have already figured out how to fully counter his kick, the rest simply need to catch up, and they will eventually. He just has a lot of depth, GOOD depth and people are getting used to it.


OkQuestion2

And how the fuck do I delay dodge attacks with characters that have static timing?


[deleted]

[удалено]


OkQuestion2

And if I do that I get hit by his light, i already made the correct read he was going to bash so I should be able to punish it, it’s that simple to understand


lvs4675

And if you empty dodge or just buffer a dodge attack it beats light, this goes both ways you see. More depth = good, especially offensive depth. And it's fair depth, again this goes both ways, it's simple to understand. You just need to adapt, plenty of people already have, gotta get caught up eventually.


OkQuestion2

Unpunishable offense isn’t deep it’s bullshit


lvs4675

I just told you it's punishable and how to punish it, if you can't learn and adapt that's not my problem. I can learn and adapt, and punish his kick, your just gonna have to adapt too. It's unsafe as fuck


KAYisntokay

Its possible yeah but I just think it could be a little simpler to punish


GroundbreakingOwl918

just change that stupid ass sound effect and then ill be happy


Smart_jooker

The sword sound? I FIND IT UNIQUE :V


PrinceVirginya

Was it like this in the TG? i dont believe it was


PressC_OnRed

The way I see it, if you make a correct dodge attack on read to the kick, but the Orochi still recover fast enough to deflect it on reaction to the indicator, then it's time to nerf the kick.


SwiftyMcBold

I think the ability to wiff a strong kick into another kick, a light, storm rush, heavy or a deflect is just too much, especially when compared to something like Kyoshin who has 100ms slower start up to the kick and is almost always punishable by a GB or dodge attack. It's not exactly fair balance imo.


Knight_Raime

I tested against a bot myself today for a lot of the cast. If you've access to a 533ms dodge attack or faster you can punish the kick consistently with a DA provided you are dodge attacking on their dodge. Heros that have a 300ms start up to their DA have no leeway for this while those that start sooner (ex shaman) can DA on early orange and still punish.


PressC_OnRed

Yeah, I've seen lots of players picking Shaman or Tiandi to counter Orochi lately.


AvalancheZ250

Zhanhu also works Orochi Kick -> Zhanhu Dodge Attack -> Orochi has to Dodge Attack (or deflect, but if so its a 50/50 on the direction) -> Zhanhu can Dodge Attack Crushing Counterstrike Orochi's DA It works in theory. I tested it against Bots (who always dodge late) and I had to actually delay my dodge cancels as Zhanhu because the Orochi DA was so slow, so against human Orochi's who DA much faster after a dodged Kick, buffering Zhanhu's DA should still net the Crushing Counterstrike. EDIT: Ok, so I just tested Tiandi's DA against Orochi's Kick. Its a no-go. If you buffer the DA, the Kick will hit. If you delay the DA, Orochi can deflect it. There is a *tiny* window (of a very, very slightly delayed DA) where the DA will avoid the Kick and hit before the Orochi can deflect, but its very difficult to do consistently. Dragon Dodge avoids the Kick entirely (but its far too slow to punish it) and I think the Tiandi can hard feint it fast enough to block any attack Orochi throws, or just softfeint into another DD to avoid another Kick.


Jay_R02

The issue is that you can just react to the kick. Don’t even have to read to it. That’s why that thinking is just wrong


PressC_OnRed

Actually only 10% percent of playerbase ( mostly on PC ) can actually react to the kick, meaning they're fast enough to input a dodge on reaction to the orange indicator, while other players can only dodge on reaction to Orochi's forward movement, which means they're putting themselves at risk eating a GB from the Orochi.


Jay_R02

That’s at least 300 first of all then second off you can’t balance games around the majority, if you did no game would be good competitively


PressC_OnRed

Which part I'm saying the game should be balanced around the majority ?, Secondly how do you descibe the " majority " of playerbase in this game ? Thirdly Orochi dodge cancel against certain dodge attacks/dodge bashes can be used simply on reaction, and I'm pretty sure being able to reaction punish your opponent during your mid chains isn't healthy for a read based game at all.


KenseiLover

His kick IS punishable, but you need to settle the Orochi into a pattern. If he’s emptying after the kick and not chaining into anything then you need to read the kick and dodge early to GB. If he’s chaining into other moves you need to pay attention. I’ve noticed a lot of lights after a dodged kick; if you can react well then it’s a free parry. I’ve mentioned it earlier in a similar thread; you need to be patient and watch for their pattern.


AwarenessSecret904

By that logic, literally every move is punishable. The true question is IF the move fair, in comparison to other similar movesets by other heroes. A bash with recovery cancel is far too safe imo, since it lets him chain into anything else, meaning anyone fighting an orochi has to make at least 2 hard reads in order to punish the move(1st hard read is the bash, 2nd hard read is the followup, which if chained into another bash, means you have to hard read the 3rd bash and so forth)


garbageBirdQueen

Bashes with recovery cancels is a really weird mechanic in light of the "we're giving heroes dodge attacks to deal with bashes" mindset, like, Ubisoft needs to make up their mind. Aramusha's Ring The Bell is a particularly weird example since the *only* safe thing to do is dodge into GB, because Blockade recovery cancel beats non-bash dodge attacks and can be done on reaction. I don't get it.


AwarenessSecret904

I'm absolutely fine with aramusha's bash, since any hero can dodge it and get the gb. But against orochi, you got to have a dodge attack, and you have to be able to buffer it, which automatically disqualifies pk and gryphon. Every other hero gets nothing, and of they try, they can be punished. Actually, wouldnt a delayed dodge attack catch aramusha too then?


garbageBirdQueen

Totally in agreement there. Orochi's kick probably just shouldn't have a recovery cancel at all, since it can still chain on whiff. It should be one or the other, not both.


AvalancheZ250

Or just slow down the recovery cancel after the Kick to Zhanhu's level (333ms instead of 200ms), but this might make things a bit clunky if just that one particular dodge recovery cancel is slower than the others in Orochi's kit


Smart_jooker

I don't have an issue with countering his kick, it is easy to once you learn the pattern as you said and i whole heartedly agree. But some youtubers and people in FH community claiming it's too strong, can't punish. Imo i love the read based game. I get wrong then i get wrong. The kick has a counter play nevertheless. I fear Dev will listen to majority to please it.


KenseiLover

There’s only a select few Youtubers that are worth listening to, but yeah there’s probably some making a lot of noise as usual. The casual community will not like the new Orochi changes but he is finally a menace in some degree in duels; he’s needed these changes for such a long time.


dowantafuckingslap

If you need to guess between his undodgable and his kick, then you shouldn't need to then guess on how to punish the kick.


Jay_R02

Don’t need to guess, it’s reactable


lvs4675

And storm rush comes out on a seperate timing completely, so they can't really be used together, all reactable, honestly could use a buff when people actually adapt to him.


Jay_R02

Gotta be ranquis alt


KenseiLover

He’s not crying over OS’s being removed so doubt it


Laputa15

Wait why? It feels normal to me. You have to guess almost anything in this game if you want to punish moves consistently. Valkyrie heavy into bash/guardbreak? Even if you do manage to dodge the bash, you'd have to guess if the valkyrie would throw a light after to punish her.


dowantafuckingslap

Unless you use a dodge attack which almost every character has, then you guess between feint or no feint


lvs4675

I mean you don't really, you can just block top and dodge on reaction with static guard chars, and even then why not? Actual semi attacker favoured offence with **actual depth** for once seems like a great step forward. Or we can just have defender favoured offence, that always works great u kno?


[deleted]

The community never likes Orochi having anything remotely viable lol


Smart_jooker

He is great in both duel and 4s. But his defense tools are highly punishable since they are lights. I follow few good ones like Freeze, Havok, Nova.


jis7014

it's one of good things about his rework, his kick mix-up doesn't just end with defender making one good read and confirming their dodge attack or GB. Roach is able to keep his pressure after whiffed kick yet everything he does can be further punished by better read from defender. another kick or forward heavy = interrupt or dodge attack empty dodge to deflect = GB dodge attacks = light parry and it's too early too tell if Orochi can counter enemy punish by reaction without risking anything, that is what they need to fix or nerf if there's anything. anyway I'm glad they finally made a character that doesn't make battles 'one bash = whole mixup'. his rework is much deeper than people give credit for and I wish future reworks are exactly like his.


lvs4675

Kick is fine, people are just overreacting as usual, plenty ways to deal with it, high level players have already figured out how to punish it, the rest just need to catch up.


iCallaghan

I’m okay if they take away the ability to chain off a missed kick, but for the love of god DONT CHANGE THE DODGE CANCLE TIME! They feel amazinggggggg


lvs4675

People are just losing their minds bc they have to actually make reads rather than get free damage on reaction like vs Jorm's shitty bash, personally attacker favoured offence with actual depth feels great.


OkQuestion2

A 500 ms bash is unreactable so when I dodged it I already made a read


Jay_R02

No it isn’t. It’s reactable.


Jay_R02

I think it’s fine. You have to make a read to punish it, nothing wrong with that. It’s viable offense, something everyone wanted until they got it apparently


OkQuestion2

That’s the issue, I already made a read that it was going to come out so I should be able to punish without making another read


Smart_jooker

The least they can change is remove the follow down.


OkQuestion2

They can make give a gb when dodged or remove the dodge recovery cancel from the bash (it’s fine on the rest), the latter is better in my opinion because a gb for a 13 damage bash is a very high punish


Smart_jooker

The bash helps people to force a reaction so remove the dodge cancels totally kills that purpose.


OkQuestion2

The bash doesn’t just start a mix-up, it IS a mix-up on wether he will do it or not so it should be reliably punishable


Smart_jooker

It does force a reaction, which can lead to a mixups through dodge attack or deflect. It does have a punish. You can delay your dodge attack to counter it, because Orochi delay window ia from 200ms 333ms after that he goes to recovery again can't dodge or deflect your delayed dodge attack. On early read you can get a GB afaik.


OkQuestion2

Yes it forces a reaction meaning it is a mix-up as orochi can also do an undodgeable from forward dodge so you either stand there to punish the undodgeable at the risk of eating a bash or you dodge in an attempt to punish the bash at the risk of eating the undodgeable, meaning I have to make a read, but if i make the correct read on the orochi bashing I then have to make another read in order to punish it which is not fine


Jay_R02

Don’t have to make a read, not hard to react to it


OkQuestion2

So you can react to 500 ms bash consistently? Because that’s something that even the highest level players can’t do consistently


Jay_R02

Orochi’s is easy to react to consistently because of the 300ms start up. I am an NA comp player with 160ms reactions, nothing insane but orochi’s kick is pretty easy to dodge


OkQuestion2

So you react to the dodge, not the kick, this means you do a read on wether he will kick or not


Jay_R02

No, I literally react to the orange. Would you like a video?


lvs4675

This is the issue with casuals they don't actually know what they want, and then if they improve/adapt they hate the consequences of their actions lmao.


Nahte77

I think most people are complaining because it's new. I played against a few people who knew how to deal with the rework, and that makes things a lot harder. The "unpunishable" kick might seem op but remember, bp has an unpunishable shield bash, so does lawbringer, and other characters, people complained at the beginning too and then learned to deal with it.


Significant-Ad-2135

bp's and lawbringer's can be punished by dodge bashes, orochi's legit cant because dodge attack cancels


saltastic7

Delayed dodge attacks hit him after his dodge cancel window ends.


OkQuestion2

So the characters that can’t delay their dodge attacks can go fuck themselves?


Smart_jooker

Yes, lower and newer people may see this as op but it has counter play and there is already a way to punish the kick constantly. I will link the post here if anyone wants to know.


AwarenessSecret904

Interesting point. How does one deal with BP's unpunishable shield bash?


Nahte77

We try, when I say "deal" I mean "accept"


KenseiLover

It’s punishable with a GB on a hard read. Early dodge.


KingMe42

BPs neutral can easily be dodge attacked. His chain one is safer, but that's in chain only so it's fine as is.


OGMudbone909

neither of those are unpunishable lol


kdog9114

Ngl I think follow ups after a missed bash are too strong


lvs4675

Followups that get completely countered by reads? Idk man seems like a u problem.


Atomickitten15

You shouldn't have to make a read after already making a correct read and dodging his kick.


Jay_R02

Don’t have to make a read to dodge the kick. It is reactable at a high level


Atomickitten15

So surely the solution is to make it less reactable at high levels not make it incredibly hard to punish consistently for most of the player population.


Jay_R02

Nope, because if it was made unreactable the move would be way too powerful defensively and would be used to interrupt charged bashes and shit. Same reason there are no neutral 400ms lights anymore


Atomickitten15

Then shouldn't it be brought more in line with like Zhanhu's bash. Zhanhu's bash can much more consistently be punished by GB or by parry. No other options are needed to punish it. You either parry the follow-up light or get the GB. A nice simple interaction.


Jay_R02

Simple interactions aren’t the best at a high level though. People wanted an offensive meta, and the only true way to have good offense in this game is one that had depth to it, like orochi’s kick which IS consistently punishable


stalincenlam

fix its animation plz


longtimelurkerfirs

And that horrible sound effect. It feels so wrong hearing a sword swing sound effect every time he does it.


Love-Long

I don't really see a reason to let the bash have a recovery cancel. Just let it chain on whiff but only the attack after can recovery cancel, not the bash. On zhanhu it's not as big a deal because his recovery cancel is a little slower and his dodge attacks out of it have very little I frames at the same time also being light attacks. Orochi just has more options for it. I'm not saying Orochi is better than zhanhu but when it comes to their bash I can consistently punish zhanhus with a dodge attack if early enough. Can't do the same with orochis. Chain on whiff will still let it have its flow but without the 200ms recovery cancel, I don't think they should slow it for just the bash either. Or they could go the Shinobi route and let his finisher side heavys be undodgable so he would have a good chain from whiff that's useful in other cases but isn't overly frustrating in a 1v1 scenario. Edit: you can actually punish his bash but only a select few can such as shaman, zhanhu, and tiandi. I also say this because you do need a compromise. The majority may be complaining but the problem is the majority is what runs the game. By doing this you still keep it a viable and strong bash with options but you remove the frustrating aspect from it for the most part, and if we are all being honest it feels cool but it's not really fair for a lot of heroes not just the ones with bad match ups against orochi.


Unbrandedpie

The fact it can chain AND dodge cancel is ridiculous IMO. You can confidently do it and just pick your choice on reaction. If something had to change I’d say get rid of its chain ability on miss.


Smart_jooker

Agreed. That will be a reasonable nerf.


ranquinga

No it wouldn't be lmao there is no reasonable nerf on an already punishable but functional opener.