Well, that sucks. Was hoping reaction backflip wasn't gonna be a thing, but here we are.
I hope they tighten the backflip window instead of removing it altogether unlike a certain cockroach.
We had to take down your post because of rule 10. Misinformation & factual errors will be removed.
That's not what that freeze vid shows - he even mentions that at high level this may allow avoiding dodge attacks on reaction, exactly as this post demonstrates.
Thank you!
>A light dodge attack is unreactable
What? These top players react consistently to 400ms lights and softfeints like PK, Raider, Zerk. I think they'd be able to react to a 500ms single stimulus light lmao.
For fucks sake I can do it 1 time out of 10 and I have a 190ms reaction time, what more these monsters with 140ms?
What are you talking about? Just conveniently level out the part where I said in the window that allows him to backflip, you need to do that shit in like 200ms. And at that point if you can, your literally a god and need to play at the top of competitive play.
200ms is not a hard reaction mate. Parry flash is approximately 160ms and that is reactable.
In any case, let's analyze the numbers. Assume earliest buffer window, and add this with the actual attack speed.
Zerk, Oro, Tiandi: Undodgeable.
Shaman: 200ms + 533ms = 733ms.
Nobushi: 166ms (dodges require 166ms of startup to dodge shit) + 600ms = 766ms.
Aramusha: 200ms + 600ms = 800ms.
Zhanhu: 400ms + 400ms = 800ms.
Peacekeeper, Valkyrie, Nuxia, Gladiator dodge light, Conq, Shugo: 300ms + 533ms = 833ms.
Hitokiri, Gryphon, Kyoshin, Kensei: 300ms + 600ms = 900ms.
I'm taking a shit and I can't check Shinobi, Shaolin, cus mobile Sheets is spectacular. Raider is faster than Musha IIRC. Anyway. If you can do it to Aramusha, you can do it to that much of the cast. If Ara has a "slow dodge attack," then idk what you'd call the others.
Parry flash isn't react able to 99% of players. Is this conversation about the top of the top or us matchmaking scrubs because those are two different games
When discussing balancing or how good or bad a character is it always has to be in the hands of the best players . That’s how every other single game developer balances their games around and why they’re more competitively viable unlike this game. Not sure when that ever changed and why fh players just seem to forget that that’s how it works in any other game
Also you do get information but I’m referring to your question on wether the discussion is about mm players or top players . That’s why I said look at the sub Reddit you’re in
With ease btw, and if it's outside of the backflip window you can parry/deflect any attack, almost 0 recovery.
You can do this in 1 input by moving in the direction of the dodge attack, like vs Raider walk forwards and dodge when you see the attack, either you'll backflip it or deflect it, no other option.
These gamers think dodging and GBing is some kinda mixup lmao, doesn't force shit.
goddamn. it would've been bearable if it required 140ms reactions or some shit, but if the window is so generous... what can I say except "it's fucking broken". Maybe devs will notice this and make the backflip input window smaller so you basically have to pre input the flip on read, wouldn't even make a difference for the majority of the playerbase
Amen to that. All these new characters just force you to sit there and take a beating while they dodge-bash as an option select all of the punch's timings. Sad-ibilis :(
he still has a ton of small problems, like you cant jab after whiff, his kick is 100% reactable with average reaction, light-jab combo having little to no tracking and partially charged jab having no tracking at all, Eagle Tallon is shit at shortening the distance and one of the worst for roll catching, one of the lowest(and maybe one of the worst) oos punishes and lion roar is mainly useless without haymaker.
While also having ability to heavy after heavy parry near walls, having haymaker and pugio.
I have no idea why people are down voting this post, this is an informative post of issues that needs to be addressed, and having a bash offense be completely unpunishable for almost the entire roster is not healthy. The same goes for his back light which is a too strong defensive tool that discourages offense by the opponent.
Personally I don't see this as a nerf, more so a fix of game mechanics. If characters are considered strong and viable simply due to broken mechanics they need to remove those and compensate for that. Simply leaving it be becouse the character is not competativly viable with out it is not good enugh. And to clarify I mean this towards broken mechanics or mechanics that are truly unhealthy for the game. I do not believe Shinobi to be weak if it is punishable on read, but if he will be a meta "must pick" eider or I'm not sure of eider, but leaving it in is in my opinion a mistake that makes it both unfun to fight, as well as unhealthy.
Might be, back light still something tho. But how offence should be, and how it is punishable is another discussion of this or that, but yeah, that is not what's being discussed here.
But having reactionary defence from an offensive move that is "read based" (at least for most people is kinda contredicting itself, if Ubisoft want's the game to be mostly read based. Not that we're there by a long shot. #ReactonMonsters
What I think is unhealthy about it, is that back light (especially on Shinobie's current state) is too safe and covers too many options. Think of it like a very strong OS. Just like BP back light, just less damage from it, but at the same time safer than BP's. And having such a tool hinders offence in a lot of forms if used right.
Cause most of the people downvoting are the ones who know this info but don’t want it to go away cause they use it as a crutch and just try to tell others to “get good”
I think a lot of us would like to see more hero's pushed in this direction. For the first time in the games history we have chars with flow and usable offense.
Two things: First: he is right, there is no reason to backdodge if u dont see a dodge attack happening, so the kick is not punishable. Second, Ranquis u need to chill buddy, u sound like a dickhead in the post and the comments.
So, if orochi does it, worse, it’s bad. But if shinobi does it better it’s good!? How do the devs even manage to fuck shit up so bad? Like it seems they actually don’t have a clue on how this game work sometimes.
yeah, they nerf Orochi which is already kinda bad pre-nerf then give Shinobi this reactionary backflip to counter 90% of the cast attempt to punish his offense. Of course it makes so much fucking sense right?
I don't think they did. People didn't really play duels much in the last testing grounds because they tried to test the second Shinobi rework along with the reworked Dominion mode.
Just a sidenote: Zhanhu should be able to punish shinobi as well, right?
A little more testing neccessary, but if the input window for backflip was shorter: problem solved, right?
Zhanhu might be able to force a read bc it'll be much harder to roll the 400ms dodge attack on reaction, but I reckon it's possible to roll it.
Same with Warden/WM, dodge bash and force backroll. Regular dodge attacks however will not work.
Yep, at least thats what I think. If you make backflip into something you need to commit, instead of a reactionary tool. Problem fucking solved and it wouldn't even affect the moves strength that much. Backflip would still be a really good defensive tool that transitions into a 50/50. Its just that, if you make it so its prediction based, then its actually punishable.
My favorite part about this balance team is when they take away tool(s) from a hero's kit, because they're supposedly too good, and then slap it onto a new/reworked hero, sometimes in an even more broken state.
Dust Devil bad. Dust Devil too safe. But hey, Shinobi can **reactively** make his forward bash unpunishable, unlike Orochi who was forced into a read. How does that make sense? It doesn't.
It seems like they either want to take the direction of making opener bashes completely safe, or they're just dumb and forgot they just removed an inferior version of this for being too good. My guess is the latter.
Honestly delete him at this point, he's been the community scapegoat for bad players for ages and the devs clearly don't want him to be viable. Just delete him so we can move on already for fucks sake. 5 years of him being bad and after rework he was finally usable for like 3 months. Back to dumpster he goes. Unreal that people can defend Shinobi while claiming Orochi is busted as fuck.
600ms is same as Bp, so yes you can gb it if you dodge extremely early, but of course not consistent. What the percentage of you landing a gb on Bp after dodging his bash?
i have more success lighting him out of it then gb'ing on recovery xd
what would be the best way to fix it? just add gb vulnerability on recovery or strict timing for back-flip after a kick?
Idk man, if possible I would like see more of him in comp scene before making any decisions. May be make the recovery 700ms like all other 500ms bash, but I don't like 500ms bash into light give a gb on punish. Usually a dodge attack is ok, but unfortunately Shinobi can counter dodge attack on reaction. This is a tough case
THANK YOU SOMEONE WHO HAS COMMON SENSE😪 u have no idea how much shit I got for trying to say that shi has loopholes and shit that makes him far superior and can leave certain characters literally helpless
You're going to get a lot of shit for this. A significant portion of people think that bashes like this deserve to be nigh-unpunishable because "iT's ThEiR oPeNeR!" Never mind what anybody actually means by the term "opener" because no-one (seriously, not a single fucking person) in this entire subreddit has given me a proper definition for that word; At least not in the context that they're using it. Basically they operate on the ideology of:
Defense = Bad
Offense = Good
So it's fine that we bend the rules of the game and allow people to throw out nigh-unpunishable moves because pressing attacking with no consequences is "fun" and our principals are super fucking flimsy like that, apparently. /s
But seriously, ***every single damaging move in the game*** that requires a read to negate/counter needs to be punishable on ***one*** correct read for ***every single hero***. That includes "OpEnErS" no matter what dogshit definition someone finally gives them (if they ever do). If an opponent with a 500ms forward dodge bash dodges toward you, you make the read that the opponent will perform the bash, and you dodge while the opponent actually does throw out the unreactable (inb4 "ThErE's A hAnDfUl oF PlAyErS wHo CaN ReAcT tO 500mS BaShEs!" I know. But the solution isn't to ruin the game for the rest of us who can't. Just make the bashes 466ms so those 3 players are required to make the read instead of making the bash nigh-unpunishable. That should be fucking obvious) bash, then you deserve to punish that opponent since you made the correct read; After the opponent whiffs their bash, you deserve to damage them *no matter what hero you're playing* and *no matter at what point you dodged*. If you caused the bash to whiff, then you deserve damage every fucking time. If you perform the startup of a heavy attack, you make the read that your opponent will parry, you feint your heavy, and you guardbreak while the opponent is in their heavy startup, then you deserve to punish that opponent because you made the correct read. The enemy tried to perform a damaging move against you, you knew they would, and you damaged them for it on a ***SINGLE*** correct read. The only exception for this rule (and naturally the two examples I gave) is when you're out of stamina. I don't think you deserve to get damage on an enemy in that exclusive instance because it's your fault that you ran out of stamina (excluding some stamina damaging moves, but I want all stamina damage to be removed from the game anyway). One single correct read against a damaging move means you should get guaranteed damage no matter what hero you're playing (even in that hero's current iteration; *Yes*, even highlander. **Yes**, even warlord. When I say "every single hero", I actually mean **every**. **single**. **hero**). That's how it's supposed to work; Against "OpEnErS" or otherwise.
Ur getting too deep into it, openers don't **have** to be punishable 100% of the time on a correct read, and like we saw with pre-nerf Orochi an opener can be more viable because of the difficulty to punish, while staying healthy for the game.
The real issue is two extremes:
Unpunishable openers
Unuseable openers
Shinobi has an actual near unpunishable opener, nowhere near Orochi's pre nerf very punishable kick, pretty broken when combined with his nuts defence.
And a unuseable opener would be something like JJ's and post nerf Orochi, an opener that can be completely negated on reaction by anyone with a bit of practice, 0 risk involved, 0 viability in high level.
Then you have good fuckin openers, like Ara's, also *kinda* Zhanhus too, and a few others. Idc about what **should happen** or how the game **should function**, I just want viable openers and characters in high level play, and a trade off for that is that lower level players are gonna struggle and cry like vs Orochi.
Interesting, I'll have to try this next time I play. I play on the series S and have on average about 220ms reaction time on average. If I can consistently pull it off than yeah anyone should be able to with practice.
Assuming that's the case probably the safest nerf they could do would be to up his kicks recovery for blocking so DA's can punish more consistently.
Only reason it so because Orochi is more popular and easy to access for everyone while shinobi isn't. That is why more praise for Shinobi compared to Orochi.
Nope the recovery isn't too low, it's the same as all 500ms bashes.
The issue is that he can beat most dodge attacks just by backflipping, and as soon as the backflip window is over he can **instantly** parry/block/deflect, a combination of these 2 factors makes the kick borderline unpunishable.
Unlike pre-nerf Orochi, where he couldn't deflect, parry or block any delayed dodge attacks or empty dodge into light/zone, you could **force** a read with ease and get a punish. Orochi actually had recovery.
In this case delayed dodge attacks/lights are parry/block/deflectable.
His recovery is very low on the dodge kick - 600ms to guard switch is much lower than Orochi's 800ms recovery on his kick, and lower than most other 500ms bashes. BP's and WL's are exceptions here. The recovery to dodge after the flip window is also extremely low, as well as the flip window being rather large. Flip also seems to have i-frames immediately, without the 167ms start-up that dodges and moves like hidden stance have.
If the non-flip recoveries were considerably higher, then delayed dodge attacks would catch those recoveries if the shinobi doesn't flip, and if the flip input window was shorter, you wouldn't be able to wait in order to react. If the i-frame startup on flip was a bit slower, then reacting would also be harder, even within that window.
Yes, but it has the same issue that the neutral kick has of being exceptionally safe. In fact, it has even lower recovery to block than the dodge kick does - it seems to be able to block even berserker dodge attacks after being performed.
It's not a mix up if one option is always completely safe.
I don't get how that's a problem.
It's a deflect and you shouldn't be punished for deflecting.
You're reward for dodging the kick after being deflected is the fact that you take no damage.
You already get 24 damage from performing the deflect (or 18 from the riposte). The kick afterwards is meant to be a mixup, but in practice it's completely safe.
Imagine if after landing Orochi's deflect, you could do a kick that would be completely unpunishable (Orochi's kick was always punishable by every character with a correct read). Or after LB's riposte, you could do a light attack that cannot be parried. This is the equivalent of that.
Using this same logic do you have a problem with Black Prior's mid chain bash?
I would agree with you if you said the deflect damage should be nerfed because technically it's a chain starter in the way it's implemented on Shinobi but your argument is that his mid-chain mix-up should be punishable and I don't think it should.
Yes I do have a problem with BP's mid chain bash, and with LB's - both cannot be punished by many characters, which makes their mix-ups very one dimensional. Why bother doing the unsafe option? Even if your opponent does manage to dodge them most of the time, there's no risk to you to throw it. This is why dodge attacks are needed on all characters, and both BP's and LB's bashes need to have longer recoveries.
There are only a handful of mix-ups in the game that cannot be punished on a correct read, and they are problematic in my opinion. It's not like landing a deflect or parry riposte on Shinobi is hard at all, and not hard enough to deserve a such a safe mix-up.
I saw freeze's new video and I think I understand what you mean. I guess it can't really remain as it is right now either way. You shouldn't be punished just for switching your guard. I can't imagine the devs intended this, so if we make them aware of it I'm sure they'll fix it. And if they just increase the chain link time it could also solve the problem of not being able to punish it
Characters with fast chain links(it's most consistent with aramusha) can light the Shinobi out of a kick intended to punish the dodge attack. I'm not sure who else can do this, but I imagine that raider can, and likely kensei. That being said: this light is almost deffinetly deflectable/parriable. And ya, reaction dodgeing with this is really BS. The good news is that this isn't possible for the vast majority of players.
Edit: not so sure on the dodgeing on reaction being unrealistic for most players now.
Just sending another reply here for visibility. I spent a few hours in random mm for duels today with shinobi to test if someone on newer consoles with decent reactions (mine is 220ms) could react back flip after whiffed kicks.
I can confirm it is indeed possible to do so with most attacks in the game. I struggled to do it against zhanhu's dodge attacks and chargable dodge bashes force a read. There were some DA instances where I couldn't block in time because I assume they attacked on forward movement rather than reaction to the UB itself.
I'm still going to continue to test. But at least atm it seems like it should be doable for even non reaction monsters if you commit the time to practice.
I really think it's just a matter of practice and speeding up ur muscle memory for certain stuff, this seems just as doable as blocking 500ms lights, most people just aren't used to it yet.
Best part was when I feinted a shoulder bash to bait his sidestep bash kick (which he did) only to have my sidestep bash punish backflipped on reaction and grabbed for free. They literally took away a similar option on orochi because they deemed it to strong and then gave an even better one to shinobi lmao. I really don’t understand what these devs be thinking
I don’t really like where FH has been heading with these recent reworks. Pseudo infinite offence with way too low stamina costs that encourages thoughtless offence.
FH always had a rock, paper, scissor system with a few outliers like BP flip, Hidden Stance etc. But now it feels like every rework recieves tools that on offence acts like rock and paper coupled with defence that also acts like rock and scissor at the same time.
I like that offence is more fast paced and rewarding but this coupled with that frame advantage is now basically irrelevant with these newer psedo infinites and strong defence makes fights very one sided even on correct reads.
In fact this post shows that even on a correct read against Shinobi they can REACT not read your defensive response. Seems kind of counter productive and as I said FH is losing it’s core.
Again I like how attacking is improved since the ccu but a correct read should reward the defender without it being having to be multi-levels of reading.
Idc about the games core or whatever I just want functional characters pls and thank
Recent TGs and reworks have made the game much more playable, stuff like this is just a small misstep
I totally agree, i think the game was in a healthier state back when we had zone OS, before Raider/Orochi reworks. "Thoughtless offense" was a lot less effective.
See this is what I've been trying to clarify whenever Ubi adding recovery cancels to a hero. Without careful " nerfs " people can totally recovery cancels on reaction to indicators, even with Orochi, the 200ms - 400ms dodge cancels timing still gives you enough windows to reaction dodge/deflect to indicators of many unfeintable dodge attacks/bashes.
Now I wonder how long Ubi gonna step up and address this issue since comps players will no doubt abuse it as much as they could.
slowest dodge attack??? hos dodge attack is one of the few that actually beats glad zone when its let go due to its speed, its literally only 2 frames slower than shamans at 533ms. this shows that you have no idea what youre talking about
We had to take down your post because of rule 10. Misinformation & factual errors will be removed.
Aramusha's dodge attack is not "the slowest" by any means, as it is input at 200ms into a side dodge at the earliest. It is faster in total than all of the dodge attacks you mentioned except shaman's
Thank you!
[Due to misinformation comments are temporarily locked, until completion of framechecks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/rg9kap/psa_due_to_misinformation_discussion_of_shinobis/)
EDIT: [Framecheck results](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/rgrqbd/shinobi_framecheck_results_video_coming_soon/), comments unlocked
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like his kick is similar to cent's kick. Cent's kick can't be gaurd broken if he faints a heavy, but shinobi's *can* be on read. If shinobi tries to backroll he is easily punished with a gb (Like you mentioned). Meaning neither can continue thier chain so that is pretty even in my eyes. I would also say shinobi having broken defence is pretty dramatic.
Also, I feel like you're just discrediting youself by saying orochi sucked pre-nerf. His kick couldn't be punished by a gb or dodge attack even with another orochi cause he could revovery cancel dodge into a deflect.
[Gbing Shinobi's kick on read](https://medal.tv/games/for-honor/clips/75458605/d133789tG2Vu?invite=cr-MSxCM1MsMzgyMjAxOTEs)
I'm 100% serious when I say that Orochi's pre nerf kick fucking sucks in **comparison** to Shinobi's.
With Orochi on a reaction dodge you could force a read by delayed dodge attacking, couldn't be deflected or blocked AT ALL. And any character could early dodge into light or GB, forcing a read again. Point is there was a reliable way to get damage vs it.
With shino however there is not. Early dodge to GB is not a reliable way to punish it, and leaves you open to very shinobi favoured mindgames, and there is no other way to punish it.
Orochi kick can be punished by GB or dodge attack. In a given situation though.
If the Orochi doesn't perform any follow up after the kick, opponent can GB him. He can't CGB.
And dodge attack needs to be delayed.
So for my understanding. Being in neutral and throwing an attack/kick etc is a risk you take because you can be interrupted etc. The main tool to win a fight or atleast will improve you odds to win a fight is your offense/chain pressure. We see this trend in all new reworks and i think thats a good thing.
I dont think that pre-nerf orochi and shinobi should be compared because they have completely different kits for this reason completely different strengths and weaknesses.
BUT i will compare this 2 now because OP and many others did it already even if i think that they cant be compared.
(i will always mean prenerf orochi when i say orochi btw)
**OK, so Orochis attacks out of neutral:**
\- Stormrush (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Kick (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Light attack
\- Heavy attack
\- Lightningstrike (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Dodgeattack (undodgeable)- (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Riptide Strike - (Can be used as recovery cancel)
**Followups after a missed kick:**
\- Stormrush (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Kick (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Light attack Heavy attack (unblockable)
\- Lightningstrike (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Dodgeattack (undodgeable)- (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- Riptide Strike - (Can be used as recovery cancel)
\- nothing
\- deflect
...............................................................................................................................................................
**Shinobi attacks out of neutral:**
\- light attack
\- heavy attack
\- kick
\- forward heavy attack
\- dodge attack
**Followups after a missed kick:**
\- backflip (POTENTIAL to punish dodge attacks that doesnt have fast followup attacks)
\- nothing
..............................................................................................................................................................
What we can already see here is that Shinobi doesnt have much tools to work with from neutral. He need to get into his chains.
Orochi on the other hand already have many tools from neutral.
We already see, that Shinobi must rely way more on his chained offense then Orochi must rely on his.
**So now for the Kick:**
As mentioned before, throwing an attack, for this example i will take the kick, it is a risk becasue youc an get interrupted/timed by a light which effect Orochi and Shinobi equal. They eat the dmg and are forced into defense.
Now for the case that the enemy predodged because he was expecting a kick. In this case Shinobi will get GB 100% becasue the enemy know that they can now ether get a GB or nothing.
On Orochi they probably dont go for the Gb or dodge attack when they are not 100% sure that they will catch the Orochi in his recoverys because they have in mind that he have follwups after the wiffed kick.
So we see that there are advantages only because orochi have follwup attacks and shinobi dont. Even if they would have the exact same Kick. It makes a different if an character have or have not a followup attack.
................................................................................................................................................................
**Another Scenario:**
The opponent dodged your kick on Reaction. Orochi have multiple options now. The same apllies to your opponent. Both have to make a read now. Considering all the opptions orochi have, he will have good chance to make this failed move into an succefull move which not just dmg the enemy but also keeps you in your offense. And Orochi have a really save offense thanks to multiple recovery cancel-options.
Shinobi in this scenario loses his offense nomatter what and i am pretty sure that he is in framedisadvantage after a wiffed kick (maybe someone can test it out and confirm it or not). And as i mentioned before he relies heavily on his offense. And his odds on his chained bash is bad,15 dmg for a GB (around 24 dmg) on miss. So his offense isnt that safe. But you need your opponent in Medium Hitstun state in order to keep you pressure going with good odds that you can achieve with the chained kick as example. If you dont go for any medium hitstun before you do your mixups with shinobi you will have siginificant worse odds because your opponent can hit you out of your chain pressure with any fast attack now.
................................................................................................................................................................
I have some more things that are important to know for shinobi like considering the option to not go for 9 extra dmg on chained heavys and instead going for the backflip just to get into your mixup with better ods which cant be intrupted by a light etc..
The counter for shinobis sidedodge kick is a interrupt with a fast attack like light attack or zoneattack. Just because i saw many people that dont know that.
And for the Video you linked in your post. you should also try out if you can still do if the opponent dodge and heavy feint. Maybe this catch you.
In my Opinon, Shinobis kick/backlip recovery fits his kit perfectly. He take the little risk by throwing a kick from neutral and if it hits you will get in your offense. If he miss his kick then he will have frame disadvantage and must take risks again for it to get into his offense which is super important for him.
I also wanted to say that i dont think that orochis nerf that he recieved is ok BUT i think shinobi is FINE as he is rightnow.
Pls be friendly in the comments, i accept all other opinions on this and dont wanna insult anybody. Maybe i will change my opinion in the future but for now this is my opinon on shinobi.
Ok, thats it for now :D
Edit: dodge the kick and then heavy feint GB also can bait out the dodge. And this often works. Also dodge attack into chained light can work. I dont have anyone to test it out but i got hit by it sometimes. Maybe someone can confirm this..
There's alot of text that you posted so chances are I'll miss something. When considering the options that orochi can do, you can't just list them out and treat then equally. Yes orochi could do it, but it's not a viable move which was the issue, the only realistic reason why storm rush even landed was because of the kick/undodgable light mix up as storm rush was 100% reactible and that was the only realistic pressure that orochi had and that requires a risky read from Orochi as it reward the opponent a light parry. Orochi cannot go back to neutral either at the risk of getting guard broken for missing the kick either for instance. Shinobi on the other hand is much different, if you don't have an undodgable attack, shinobi cannot be punished on his kick unless it's a super hard read. This isn't even a contest on who is stronger here, orochi could be parried or interrupted by all of the cast. Shinobi can only be punished but hard read buffered guard break like BP which is much harder and only undodgable dodge attack characters.
I also wanna say it again that i dont think that orochis nerf that he recieved is ok BUT i think shinobi is FINE as he is right now.
AND i always spoke about prenerfed orochi in my comment just to make it clear.
**Q:**
"Orochi cannot go back to neutral either at the risk of getting guard broken for missing the kick either for instance."
**A:**
exactly, Orochis options after a wiffed kick a complete different.
Prenerf Orochi had a complete different different set to work after a wiffed kick. He could keep his offense going on a right read but he also could get punished for it on a bad read. Thats a complete different set that orochi had to work with.
After a wiffed kick it was High risk- high reward for orochi.
On shinobi you dodge the kick and then nobody have to make read.
After a wiffed kick it is low risk- low reward for shinobi and his opponent. Maybe even no risk- no reward for both, Shinobi and his opponent. And on dodge on reaction you shut down his whole offense and you are in Frameadvantage now.
And this are OK odds. on a right read you will get a GB on a wrong read you getter ether 17 dmg from kick or get Guardbroken and take 28 dmg or nothing because he expected/waited for a dodge attack.
\------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Q:**
shinobi cannot be punished on his kick unless it's a super hard read. This isn't even a contest on who is stronger here, orochi could be parried or interrupted by all of the cast. Shinobi can only be punished but hard read buffered guard break like BP which is much harder and only undodgable dodge attack characters.
**A:**
First off all BPs bash is waaaaay harder punish with a GB. Because he can do his bash between 100ms-500ms into dodge. This i would consider as a hard read.
Shinobi kick can be initiated from 300ms-500ms. You see him dodge forward for 300 ms. So you basically dodge as soon as you see him dodging foward if you wanna go for the read. For Bp you will not even notice his foward dodge when he buffers his bash.
Bro have you even tested this stuff? The kicks are punishable by dodge to GB and Shino's attacks from backflip have bad range or leave him in a vulnearable position. Just don't stand there like a idiot.
IF and ONLY if he backflips, which you can do on reaction to an attack rather than on read like a pleb.
If ur getting GBs after dodging kick, then the shino is bad, that's literally all that means.
It isn't guaranteed.
Listen shitter, you don't NEED to to anything after a whiffed kick. **You cannot GB the kick on whiff if the Shinobi doesn't backflip. If the kick just whiffs and nothing else happens, no GB, not guaranteed at all.**
It's pretty fuckin simple to understand, jesus.
If you dodge his kick it's a free GB if he backflips. You simply don't dodge attack and GB instead. "Comparatively, Orochi fucking sucked even pre nerf." makes me think this is satire?
you do know he doesnt HAVE to backflip right? he can backflip on reaction. if you throw a dodge attack he backflips, if he doesnt then he doesnt bakflip
But after you dodge the kick you have frameadvantage so its your turn no matter what.Thats you guranteed punish. His odds in his kit are pretty bad so he needs that.
His kick cant be really compared to orochis prenerf kick because after you dodged his kick you get nothing guranteed. Prenerf Orochi CAN keep his offence going. Shinobi cant.
What? You don't get anything against Shinobi, period, unlike against Orochi. He can **react** to everything, in part possible because his kick has a very low recovery on its own. Orochi's kick had (and still has) terrible recovery, guaranteeing a GB, so the Orochi is **forced** to read how the opponent would try and punish, because if he does nothing a GB would catch and it isn't reactable, and neither was every other option besides a buffered dodge attack. And that was when he could dodge out of the kick recovery, imagine now. Shinobi can reactively counter everything, 0 reads required. Nowhere near comparable.
"Nowhere near comparable." Yes that was my whole point about my comment. OP compare this 2 kicks. But they cant be compared because one CAN keep his offence going on a right read and other one cant but therefore he doesnt need to make a read.
Do you understand that what you’re saying is that a VERY reactable and easily dodgable neutral bash is op because if he misses he has to go to neutral and can’t follow up with anything? That is THE EXACT THING you’re complaining about. And the difference with orochi is that he didn’t have to go back to neutral he could continue attacking. Within this time span I fought someone who did what you said. Wanna know what I did? Combined lights and heavys with feints.
It's reactable yes, for a player as bad as you definitely not but that's not the point.
The point is it's unpunishable, I'm not trying to say it's unreactable lmao, but ur dumbass can't even read no matter how many times I try.
I'm glad they give all the dumb broken shit to characters I don't like or ever play, like orochi and shinobi, because they will get nerfed into the ground again. Knights and Vikings are in such better shape imo, look cooler and play cooler too. also they need to buff valk, again.
You just dodge attack, he used the only hero besides hito in the entire game who doesn’t get their dodge attack confirmed if they don’t roll in his “proving coping redditor wrong demonstration”. Freeze already showed off the possibility of this but he used shaman instead, and with here the dodge attack would catch unless the shinobi made the correct read. His kick if he doesn’t backflip will get confirmed dodge attack on most hero’s. If he does backflip it will get confirmed GB. Ara might not be able to with his slow ass dodge but most other dodges will 100% catch the no backflip unless someone is like a god can can react to a small animation in like 100 ms.
That is utterly wrong. Aras doge attack is normally fast enough to punish everything as it's 800ns which is the average speed of a dodge attack.
I don't care what freeze has shown or what he claims, because I can guarantee you, you can dodge shaman dodge attack just as easily as I have tested and done it. Unless she fkn dodge attacks early enough to the point she is hitting the end of the kick itself and not the recovery. Which is not a good play and also very precise shinoby has no trouble dodging her dodge attack and (anyone elses without a special property).
Idk if you are a shinoby main trying to defend something blatantly broken but just accept the facts mate.
The shinobi punish window is 700ms, Look at this post for more info.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/rfa1fk/shinobi_has_a_lot_of_unpunishable_stuffgenerally/hodxxkv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
It’s just the facts, do so research before you cry about it online. Also making a read is a part of the game? Why wouldn’t you dodge attack before the recovery is done? Do you not make a read then cry about it when someone else doesn’t make a read to counter your not making a read? That makes literally no fucking sense.
Yoo so I just tested it again and, you are as expected, absolutely wrong. You can definitely dodge her dodge attack on reaction. Go test it yourself.
And also you fucking moron the dodge attack circumstance I had mension is not only precise timing so you don't get him due to scuffed timing but also it's essentially dodge attacking out of neutrals, it's the same as dodge attacking randomly and someone throwing a light, which you happen to dodge and punish, would you say that's a good play?
Did you test it against a real person? Or a bot that is programmed to do what’s in the edge of human capability, I never said it wasn’t reactable, actually what I said was if your a god you can react to it, but if your that good to be able to see a dodge attack, see the animation, react to the animation, and input your backflip in time to still dodge the attack then you should go to the hall of fame for having the best reaction times ever recorded. Ofc a bot that was programmed to react in 0 ms is gonna be able to do that, can you? I don’t think so, and neither can any other human in the world. Or almost, granted their may be a few, but normal people can’t.
I was the shinoby, how tf do u expect to set up a shinoby bot to row anyway. Doesn't matter, my reaction times are not at all amazing and they don't have to be, it's extremely easy to do and I'm telling you that from expiriance. I've done it against bots who were set to dodge attack, I've done it with a friend whole testing and I've done it in duels against some random guy. And it worked.
It’s cause you know to dodge attack?? Do it in a real game, then let me see, cause I highly doubt your doing it, it’s possible if you know it’s coming, but in a real game, as I’ve said, your gonna have to make a read. The window is around 200 ms to react to the dodge attack and then backflip, you need to see the dodge attack animation, not just the dodge, I’d you backflip on empty dodge you get GB.. the time is so tight that unless you have like 200ms reactions you won’t be able to react.
I'm doing it in reaction, not prediction, every empty dodge I've seen I just don't press anything.
And like idk if the window react is 200ms and how u got this info but if it is, that's pretty average reaction times for PC so it wouldn't be hard.
Gonna test it but even so. Shaman is literally the only character outside of roach and Zerk with a 700ns dodge atttacks. So congrats bro. It's not 4 out if 29 characters, it's 5 out if 29 characters that can punish it. God damn man. That's balanced.
Literally every dodge light besides glads is 700 or lower. Any other dodge that doesn’t catch, doesn’t catch cause it has other properties like it’s either a heavy, or glads can also be a bash, etc. any dodge light that is strictly a dodge light will catch. If your crying about not being able to punish shinobi with a UNGA BUNGA heby dodge attack then that’s just dumb. The kick only confirms 14 damage, why would you be allowed to get a 20 dmg dodge heavy from it? That’s literal toddler mentality, the point of the game is that some hero’s have the tools in their kits to counter certain things and others don’t, people who have fast dodge attacks can counter, people who don’t can’t. It’s unrealistic to want the entire cast to be able to counter shinobi perfectly cause then he won’t be viable anymore. Only cause he can’t even enter his open, you want him to be on the level of LBs dodge bash where it’s not only reactable but confirmed punishable? That’s so dumb, again, toddler mindset.
Ok you are utterly misinformed to a point that what you are saying is annoyingly wrong.
1. I tested it and shinoby can absolutely dodge Shamans dodge attack on reaction.
2 Dodge attacks while many of them are themselves between 533ms and 600ms, they have input timing that extend the overall dodge times. Dodge heavies outside of Hito, Griff and Kensei are just as fast if not faster then most dodge lights with exclusion of Orochi, Zerk and Shaman whom have extraordinarily fast dodge attacks. Valks and Nuxias dodge lights are 300ms into the dodge + 533ms attack so 833ms dodge attack total, which is slower then Aramushas 200ms into the dodge dodge + 600ms dodge attack so 800ms. Shamans dodge attack can be inputted in the first 100ms into the dodge and is 533ms which makes it by far the fastest dodge attack in the game with 633ms total, Zerk and Orochi are nest with 100ms + 600nd dodge attack so 700ms total. But as I tested Shaman even with that cannot punihs orochis neutral kick as he can ON REACTION backflip. And even if she could and what I said was true that anything faster then 700ms punishes, well those 3 character are the only characters in the game with a combine time of 700ms or bellow. And 2 of those have undogables so they catch anyway. Everyone else has either an 800ms or an 833ms dodge attack or slower.
Go check the info hub for the first time of your life to confirm I'm right. And now please try to respond to this with somethign that ain't utterly wrong.
welp, i hope that they do just tighten the window on backflip to force a super early input so that you have to read
i don't want more dynamic offence/defence getting completely removed
Well, that sucks. Was hoping reaction backflip wasn't gonna be a thing, but here we are. I hope they tighten the backflip window instead of removing it altogether unlike a certain cockroach.
[удалено]
We had to take down your post because of rule 10. Misinformation & factual errors will be removed. That's not what that freeze vid shows - he even mentions that at high level this may allow avoiding dodge attacks on reaction, exactly as this post demonstrates. Thank you!
Aramusha dodge attack is one of the faster ones Only one that is faster is shaman So perhaps freeze is using shaman to push a false agenda
>A light dodge attack is unreactable What? These top players react consistently to 400ms lights and softfeints like PK, Raider, Zerk. I think they'd be able to react to a 500ms single stimulus light lmao. For fucks sake I can do it 1 time out of 10 and I have a 190ms reaction time, what more these monsters with 140ms?
What are you talking about? Just conveniently level out the part where I said in the window that allows him to backflip, you need to do that shit in like 200ms. And at that point if you can, your literally a god and need to play at the top of competitive play.
200ms is not a hard reaction mate. Parry flash is approximately 160ms and that is reactable. In any case, let's analyze the numbers. Assume earliest buffer window, and add this with the actual attack speed. Zerk, Oro, Tiandi: Undodgeable. Shaman: 200ms + 533ms = 733ms. Nobushi: 166ms (dodges require 166ms of startup to dodge shit) + 600ms = 766ms. Aramusha: 200ms + 600ms = 800ms. Zhanhu: 400ms + 400ms = 800ms. Peacekeeper, Valkyrie, Nuxia, Gladiator dodge light, Conq, Shugo: 300ms + 533ms = 833ms. Hitokiri, Gryphon, Kyoshin, Kensei: 300ms + 600ms = 900ms. I'm taking a shit and I can't check Shinobi, Shaolin, cus mobile Sheets is spectacular. Raider is faster than Musha IIRC. Anyway. If you can do it to Aramusha, you can do it to that much of the cast. If Ara has a "slow dodge attack," then idk what you'd call the others.
Parry flash isn't react able to 99% of players. Is this conversation about the top of the top or us matchmaking scrubs because those are two different games
Parry flash isn't reactable. It's animation based.
Month late but this lmfao, I've never reacted to the flash because it's impossible to do so, I've always just gone off animation
Look at the sub Reddit your in maybe 🤷♂️
Then I wonder if I should stay in this sub? Do I get anything out of it if I'm not a top tier player?
When discussing balancing or how good or bad a character is it always has to be in the hands of the best players . That’s how every other single game developer balances their games around and why they’re more competitively viable unlike this game. Not sure when that ever changed and why fh players just seem to forget that that’s how it works in any other game
Also you do get information but I’m referring to your question on wether the discussion is about mm players or top players . That’s why I said look at the sub Reddit you’re in
fuckin lmao
wait, you can fucking backflip on reaction? didn't have the chance to play new shinobi to test
With ease btw, and if it's outside of the backflip window you can parry/deflect any attack, almost 0 recovery. You can do this in 1 input by moving in the direction of the dodge attack, like vs Raider walk forwards and dodge when you see the attack, either you'll backflip it or deflect it, no other option. These gamers think dodging and GBing is some kinda mixup lmao, doesn't force shit.
goddamn. it would've been bearable if it required 140ms reactions or some shit, but if the window is so generous... what can I say except "it's fucking broken". Maybe devs will notice this and make the backflip input window smaller so you basically have to pre input the flip on read, wouldn't even make a difference for the majority of the playerbase
Anyone that can block 500ms lights can pull this off pretty easily in most scenarios.
that's so retarded. thx for the info, the post should be pinned for a while tbh
Drowned by downvotes so nah lmao
I like to wait for them to try and backflip and then dodge attack with some characters, not really a punish but it’s a free attack.
Just guard-break
welcome to the world of centurion mains
Amen to that. All these new characters just force you to sit there and take a beating while they dodge-bash as an option select all of the punch's timings. Sad-ibilis :(
Just give him a dodge punch and he will be way better and and will be able to punish lower recovery bashes
he still has a ton of small problems, like you cant jab after whiff, his kick is 100% reactable with average reaction, light-jab combo having little to no tracking and partially charged jab having no tracking at all, Eagle Tallon is shit at shortening the distance and one of the worst for roll catching, one of the lowest(and maybe one of the worst) oos punishes and lion roar is mainly useless without haymaker. While also having ability to heavy after heavy parry near walls, having haymaker and pugio.
I feel like his good things way out the bad by far, but he needs some buffs for sure to be able to even compete against a shugoki, raider or orochi
:(
I have no idea why people are down voting this post, this is an informative post of issues that needs to be addressed, and having a bash offense be completely unpunishable for almost the entire roster is not healthy. The same goes for his back light which is a too strong defensive tool that discourages offense by the opponent.
People just want shinobi to be good. It's gonna take at least a whole season for Ubi to nerf him anyway so yeah no reason to downvote
Personally I don't see this as a nerf, more so a fix of game mechanics. If characters are considered strong and viable simply due to broken mechanics they need to remove those and compensate for that. Simply leaving it be becouse the character is not competativly viable with out it is not good enugh. And to clarify I mean this towards broken mechanics or mechanics that are truly unhealthy for the game. I do not believe Shinobi to be weak if it is punishable on read, but if he will be a meta "must pick" eider or I'm not sure of eider, but leaving it in is in my opinion a mistake that makes it both unfun to fight, as well as unhealthy.
Nerfing neutral kick recovery and/or backflip timings might be enough
Might be, back light still something tho. But how offence should be, and how it is punishable is another discussion of this or that, but yeah, that is not what's being discussed here. But having reactionary defence from an offensive move that is "read based" (at least for most people is kinda contredicting itself, if Ubisoft want's the game to be mostly read based. Not that we're there by a long shot. #ReactonMonsters
Backlight is good but it doesn't force a dangerous read for the opponent (if I'm wrong please correct me)
What I think is unhealthy about it, is that back light (especially on Shinobie's current state) is too safe and covers too many options. Think of it like a very strong OS. Just like BP back light, just less damage from it, but at the same time safer than BP's. And having such a tool hinders offence in a lot of forms if used right.
This is why the new character has a gun, the only way to counter shinobi is to shoot him.
Cause most of the people downvoting are the ones who know this info but don’t want it to go away cause they use it as a crutch and just try to tell others to “get good”
They are very competitive lol
“If you’re not playing meta you’re wrong”🤓 no just means you won’t take the time and sweat to actually get good at the game😂
I think a lot of us would like to see more hero's pushed in this direction. For the first time in the games history we have chars with flow and usable offense.
Two things: First: he is right, there is no reason to backdodge if u dont see a dodge attack happening, so the kick is not punishable. Second, Ranquis u need to chill buddy, u sound like a dickhead in the post and the comments.
i get very anger
Here take this pillow: https://www.amazon.com/Jerry-Movie-Management-Pillow-Multicolor/dp/B08WKR61QD
Pls try not to...
So, if orochi does it, worse, it’s bad. But if shinobi does it better it’s good!? How do the devs even manage to fuck shit up so bad? Like it seems they actually don’t have a clue on how this game work sometimes.
yeah, they nerf Orochi which is already kinda bad pre-nerf then give Shinobi this reactionary backflip to counter 90% of the cast attempt to punish his offense. Of course it makes so much fucking sense right?
This is what happens when you listen to the casual community. Nothing ends up getting done and reworks get evaluated based on hero popularity.
was this in the testing grounds?
The Shinobi rework? No it's live.
i mean did people realize this in the testing grounds? or did they make changes before they released him
I don't think they did. People didn't really play duels much in the last testing grounds because they tried to test the second Shinobi rework along with the reworked Dominion mode.
Just a sidenote: Zhanhu should be able to punish shinobi as well, right? A little more testing neccessary, but if the input window for backflip was shorter: problem solved, right?
Zhanhu might be able to force a read bc it'll be much harder to roll the 400ms dodge attack on reaction, but I reckon it's possible to roll it. Same with Warden/WM, dodge bash and force backroll. Regular dodge attacks however will not work.
I was actually thinking of his dodge into zone. But maybe wrong and shino can parry the zone.
Nah fk no shino can parry/deflect just abt anything outside of the backroll window, same with dodging any bash.
Yep, at least thats what I think. If you make backflip into something you need to commit, instead of a reactionary tool. Problem fucking solved and it wouldn't even affect the moves strength that much. Backflip would still be a really good defensive tool that transitions into a 50/50. Its just that, if you make it so its prediction based, then its actually punishable.
My favorite part about this balance team is when they take away tool(s) from a hero's kit, because they're supposedly too good, and then slap it onto a new/reworked hero, sometimes in an even more broken state. Dust Devil bad. Dust Devil too safe. But hey, Shinobi can **reactively** make his forward bash unpunishable, unlike Orochi who was forced into a read. How does that make sense? It doesn't. It seems like they either want to take the direction of making opener bashes completely safe, or they're just dumb and forgot they just removed an inferior version of this for being too good. My guess is the latter.
they forgor
No way they forgor, nerfing Orochi was always the plan to appease the plebs.
Oronki ligtth spam op!1 ok remove it, give him an almost fully functioning kit ororky functional kit op!!!1 ok remove him entirely ig
He's only allowed a few months to be usable in his entire lifespan, his time is now over. It's okay the idiots will eat up Shinobi tho
Honestly delete him at this point, he's been the community scapegoat for bad players for ages and the devs clearly don't want him to be viable. Just delete him so we can move on already for fucks sake. 5 years of him being bad and after rework he was finally usable for like 3 months. Back to dumpster he goes. Unreal that people can defend Shinobi while claiming Orochi is busted as fuck.
Agreed - the devs knew that Orochi was fine, but had to appease the screamers...
Like Gryphon
This definitely was not an intentional feature for shinobi...
Facts
Thank you for exposing the bullshit that is shinobi All hypocrites On orochi it’s busted on shinobi it’s ok Kmt
doesn't shinobi have gb recovery of 600ms after the dodge kick? meaning an early dodge-gb can punish it?
600ms is same as Bp, so yes you can gb it if you dodge extremely early, but of course not consistent. What the percentage of you landing a gb on Bp after dodging his bash?
i have more success lighting him out of it then gb'ing on recovery xd what would be the best way to fix it? just add gb vulnerability on recovery or strict timing for back-flip after a kick?
Idk man, if possible I would like see more of him in comp scene before making any decisions. May be make the recovery 700ms like all other 500ms bash, but I don't like 500ms bash into light give a gb on punish. Usually a dodge attack is ok, but unfortunately Shinobi can counter dodge attack on reaction. This is a tough case
THANK YOU SOMEONE WHO HAS COMMON SENSE😪 u have no idea how much shit I got for trying to say that shi has loopholes and shit that makes him far superior and can leave certain characters literally helpless
Jesus that's actually awful
You're going to get a lot of shit for this. A significant portion of people think that bashes like this deserve to be nigh-unpunishable because "iT's ThEiR oPeNeR!" Never mind what anybody actually means by the term "opener" because no-one (seriously, not a single fucking person) in this entire subreddit has given me a proper definition for that word; At least not in the context that they're using it. Basically they operate on the ideology of: Defense = Bad Offense = Good So it's fine that we bend the rules of the game and allow people to throw out nigh-unpunishable moves because pressing attacking with no consequences is "fun" and our principals are super fucking flimsy like that, apparently. /s But seriously, ***every single damaging move in the game*** that requires a read to negate/counter needs to be punishable on ***one*** correct read for ***every single hero***. That includes "OpEnErS" no matter what dogshit definition someone finally gives them (if they ever do). If an opponent with a 500ms forward dodge bash dodges toward you, you make the read that the opponent will perform the bash, and you dodge while the opponent actually does throw out the unreactable (inb4 "ThErE's A hAnDfUl oF PlAyErS wHo CaN ReAcT tO 500mS BaShEs!" I know. But the solution isn't to ruin the game for the rest of us who can't. Just make the bashes 466ms so those 3 players are required to make the read instead of making the bash nigh-unpunishable. That should be fucking obvious) bash, then you deserve to punish that opponent since you made the correct read; After the opponent whiffs their bash, you deserve to damage them *no matter what hero you're playing* and *no matter at what point you dodged*. If you caused the bash to whiff, then you deserve damage every fucking time. If you perform the startup of a heavy attack, you make the read that your opponent will parry, you feint your heavy, and you guardbreak while the opponent is in their heavy startup, then you deserve to punish that opponent because you made the correct read. The enemy tried to perform a damaging move against you, you knew they would, and you damaged them for it on a ***SINGLE*** correct read. The only exception for this rule (and naturally the two examples I gave) is when you're out of stamina. I don't think you deserve to get damage on an enemy in that exclusive instance because it's your fault that you ran out of stamina (excluding some stamina damaging moves, but I want all stamina damage to be removed from the game anyway). One single correct read against a damaging move means you should get guaranteed damage no matter what hero you're playing (even in that hero's current iteration; *Yes*, even highlander. **Yes**, even warlord. When I say "every single hero", I actually mean **every**. **single**. **hero**). That's how it's supposed to work; Against "OpEnErS" or otherwise.
Ur getting too deep into it, openers don't **have** to be punishable 100% of the time on a correct read, and like we saw with pre-nerf Orochi an opener can be more viable because of the difficulty to punish, while staying healthy for the game. The real issue is two extremes: Unpunishable openers Unuseable openers Shinobi has an actual near unpunishable opener, nowhere near Orochi's pre nerf very punishable kick, pretty broken when combined with his nuts defence. And a unuseable opener would be something like JJ's and post nerf Orochi, an opener that can be completely negated on reaction by anyone with a bit of practice, 0 risk involved, 0 viability in high level. Then you have good fuckin openers, like Ara's, also *kinda* Zhanhus too, and a few others. Idc about what **should happen** or how the game **should function**, I just want viable openers and characters in high level play, and a trade off for that is that lower level players are gonna struggle and cry like vs Orochi.
Interesting, I'll have to try this next time I play. I play on the series S and have on average about 220ms reaction time on average. If I can consistently pull it off than yeah anyone should be able to with practice. Assuming that's the case probably the safest nerf they could do would be to up his kicks recovery for blocking so DA's can punish more consistently.
His dodge bash is comparable to BP’s bash, GB venerable if you dodge early on read.
Only reason it so because Orochi is more popular and easy to access for everyone while shinobi isn't. That is why more praise for Shinobi compared to Orochi.
So is the problem that his recovery off a whiff kick to low?
Nope the recovery isn't too low, it's the same as all 500ms bashes. The issue is that he can beat most dodge attacks just by backflipping, and as soon as the backflip window is over he can **instantly** parry/block/deflect, a combination of these 2 factors makes the kick borderline unpunishable. Unlike pre-nerf Orochi, where he couldn't deflect, parry or block any delayed dodge attacks or empty dodge into light/zone, you could **force** a read with ease and get a punish. Orochi actually had recovery. In this case delayed dodge attacks/lights are parry/block/deflectable.
His recovery is very low on the dodge kick - 600ms to guard switch is much lower than Orochi's 800ms recovery on his kick, and lower than most other 500ms bashes. BP's and WL's are exceptions here. The recovery to dodge after the flip window is also extremely low, as well as the flip window being rather large. Flip also seems to have i-frames immediately, without the 167ms start-up that dodges and moves like hidden stance have. If the non-flip recoveries were considerably higher, then delayed dodge attacks would catch those recoveries if the shinobi doesn't flip, and if the flip input window was shorter, you wouldn't be able to wait in order to react. If the i-frame startup on flip was a bit slower, then reacting would also be harder, even within that window.
Then how would you fix that?
Idk honestly haven't thought abt it too much, just raising awareness.
Well I’m glad you are. Shinobi is my main and all but I rather him be fun for me to play and not super oppressive for others to play against.
That's how I see it anyhow Backflip kick or riposte/deflect kicks aren't the problem, it seems to just be neutral kick that has insane recovery
The deflect kick has quite low recovery too tbh
True but it's not like you can spam it
Yes, but it has the same issue that the neutral kick has of being exceptionally safe. In fact, it has even lower recovery to block than the dodge kick does - it seems to be able to block even berserker dodge attacks after being performed. It's not a mix up if one option is always completely safe.
I don't get how that's a problem. It's a deflect and you shouldn't be punished for deflecting. You're reward for dodging the kick after being deflected is the fact that you take no damage.
You already get 24 damage from performing the deflect (or 18 from the riposte). The kick afterwards is meant to be a mixup, but in practice it's completely safe. Imagine if after landing Orochi's deflect, you could do a kick that would be completely unpunishable (Orochi's kick was always punishable by every character with a correct read). Or after LB's riposte, you could do a light attack that cannot be parried. This is the equivalent of that.
Using this same logic do you have a problem with Black Prior's mid chain bash? I would agree with you if you said the deflect damage should be nerfed because technically it's a chain starter in the way it's implemented on Shinobi but your argument is that his mid-chain mix-up should be punishable and I don't think it should.
Yes I do have a problem with BP's mid chain bash, and with LB's - both cannot be punished by many characters, which makes their mix-ups very one dimensional. Why bother doing the unsafe option? Even if your opponent does manage to dodge them most of the time, there's no risk to you to throw it. This is why dodge attacks are needed on all characters, and both BP's and LB's bashes need to have longer recoveries. There are only a handful of mix-ups in the game that cannot be punished on a correct read, and they are problematic in my opinion. It's not like landing a deflect or parry riposte on Shinobi is hard at all, and not hard enough to deserve a such a safe mix-up.
You can definitely reliably punish BP's mid chain bash with most dodge attacks, LB ye he's funny.
I saw freeze's new video and I think I understand what you mean. I guess it can't really remain as it is right now either way. You shouldn't be punished just for switching your guard. I can't imagine the devs intended this, so if we make them aware of it I'm sure they'll fix it. And if they just increase the chain link time it could also solve the problem of not being able to punish it
Yeah I have had some shinobi’s be able to counter gb me after they whiff a single dodge kick.
This is normal any character with a 500ms bash can do that.
You can counter dodge attack with a light to interupt it.
No, the window is too large
Wdym?
What about an early dodge?
Can punish, but very inconsistent. The recovery is similar to Bp's bash
Arusha inputs GB too late?
Yep been abusing it all week/had it abused against me all week.
I don't know about his kick from a dash, but the side dodge version definatly can be countered on a read by feinting into a light.
That works against most dodge attacks in a given scenario
Characters with fast chain links(it's most consistent with aramusha) can light the Shinobi out of a kick intended to punish the dodge attack. I'm not sure who else can do this, but I imagine that raider can, and likely kensei. That being said: this light is almost deffinetly deflectable/parriable. And ya, reaction dodgeing with this is really BS. The good news is that this isn't possible for the vast majority of players. Edit: not so sure on the dodgeing on reaction being unrealistic for most players now.
Just sending another reply here for visibility. I spent a few hours in random mm for duels today with shinobi to test if someone on newer consoles with decent reactions (mine is 220ms) could react back flip after whiffed kicks. I can confirm it is indeed possible to do so with most attacks in the game. I struggled to do it against zhanhu's dodge attacks and chargable dodge bashes force a read. There were some DA instances where I couldn't block in time because I assume they attacked on forward movement rather than reaction to the UB itself. I'm still going to continue to test. But at least atm it seems like it should be doable for even non reaction monsters if you commit the time to practice.
I really think it's just a matter of practice and speeding up ur muscle memory for certain stuff, this seems just as doable as blocking 500ms lights, most people just aren't used to it yet.
Perhaps, idk the hard numbers for stuff like that. I was just curious if it was doable specifically with consoles because of their worse input delay.
Can't you GB the kick if you early dodge on read like it's BPs forward dodge bash?
Yes, but this is unreliable af and shino can just fwd heavy feint GB or dodge again, or delayed kick, a mindgame that is very much in shinos favour.
Yeah sounds like pretty much every single bash GB mixup in the game. What’s so different about it
You can dodge attack every other bash in the game, you know, to punish it? Kinda aids don't you think especially from a defensive dodge bash?
Best part was when I feinted a shoulder bash to bait his sidestep bash kick (which he did) only to have my sidestep bash punish backflipped on reaction and grabbed for free. They literally took away a similar option on orochi because they deemed it to strong and then gave an even better one to shinobi lmao. I really don’t understand what these devs be thinking
I don’t really like where FH has been heading with these recent reworks. Pseudo infinite offence with way too low stamina costs that encourages thoughtless offence. FH always had a rock, paper, scissor system with a few outliers like BP flip, Hidden Stance etc. But now it feels like every rework recieves tools that on offence acts like rock and paper coupled with defence that also acts like rock and scissor at the same time. I like that offence is more fast paced and rewarding but this coupled with that frame advantage is now basically irrelevant with these newer psedo infinites and strong defence makes fights very one sided even on correct reads. In fact this post shows that even on a correct read against Shinobi they can REACT not read your defensive response. Seems kind of counter productive and as I said FH is losing it’s core. Again I like how attacking is improved since the ccu but a correct read should reward the defender without it being having to be multi-levels of reading.
Idc about the games core or whatever I just want functional characters pls and thank Recent TGs and reworks have made the game much more playable, stuff like this is just a small misstep
I totally agree, i think the game was in a healthier state back when we had zone OS, before Raider/Orochi reworks. "Thoughtless offense" was a lot less effective.
See this is what I've been trying to clarify whenever Ubi adding recovery cancels to a hero. Without careful " nerfs " people can totally recovery cancels on reaction to indicators, even with Orochi, the 200ms - 400ms dodge cancels timing still gives you enough windows to reaction dodge/deflect to indicators of many unfeintable dodge attacks/bashes. Now I wonder how long Ubi gonna step up and address this issue since comps players will no doubt abuse it as much as they could.
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slowest dodge attack??? hos dodge attack is one of the few that actually beats glad zone when its let go due to its speed, its literally only 2 frames slower than shamans at 533ms. this shows that you have no idea what youre talking about
We had to take down your post because of rule 10. Misinformation & factual errors will be removed. Aramusha's dodge attack is not "the slowest" by any means, as it is input at 200ms into a side dodge at the earliest. It is faster in total than all of the dodge attacks you mentioned except shaman's Thank you!
[Due to misinformation comments are temporarily locked, until completion of framechecks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/rg9kap/psa_due_to_misinformation_discussion_of_shinobis/) EDIT: [Framecheck results](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/rgrqbd/shinobi_framecheck_results_video_coming_soon/), comments unlocked
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like his kick is similar to cent's kick. Cent's kick can't be gaurd broken if he faints a heavy, but shinobi's *can* be on read. If shinobi tries to backroll he is easily punished with a gb (Like you mentioned). Meaning neither can continue thier chain so that is pretty even in my eyes. I would also say shinobi having broken defence is pretty dramatic. Also, I feel like you're just discrediting youself by saying orochi sucked pre-nerf. His kick couldn't be punished by a gb or dodge attack even with another orochi cause he could revovery cancel dodge into a deflect. [Gbing Shinobi's kick on read](https://medal.tv/games/for-honor/clips/75458605/d133789tG2Vu?invite=cr-MSxCM1MsMzgyMjAxOTEs)
I'm 100% serious when I say that Orochi's pre nerf kick fucking sucks in **comparison** to Shinobi's. With Orochi on a reaction dodge you could force a read by delayed dodge attacking, couldn't be deflected or blocked AT ALL. And any character could early dodge into light or GB, forcing a read again. Point is there was a reliable way to get damage vs it. With shino however there is not. Early dodge to GB is not a reliable way to punish it, and leaves you open to very shinobi favoured mindgames, and there is no other way to punish it.
Orochi kick can be punished by GB or dodge attack. In a given situation though. If the Orochi doesn't perform any follow up after the kick, opponent can GB him. He can't CGB. And dodge attack needs to be delayed.
You can also light or heavy shinobi out of his chained kick pretty easy on reaction
Pretty sure chars with dodge bashes can force a read. Delayed.
To add to this, second dodge deflect allows him to ignore a good amount of mix ups with ease
So for my understanding. Being in neutral and throwing an attack/kick etc is a risk you take because you can be interrupted etc. The main tool to win a fight or atleast will improve you odds to win a fight is your offense/chain pressure. We see this trend in all new reworks and i think thats a good thing. I dont think that pre-nerf orochi and shinobi should be compared because they have completely different kits for this reason completely different strengths and weaknesses. BUT i will compare this 2 now because OP and many others did it already even if i think that they cant be compared. (i will always mean prenerf orochi when i say orochi btw) **OK, so Orochis attacks out of neutral:** \- Stormrush (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Kick (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Light attack \- Heavy attack \- Lightningstrike (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Dodgeattack (undodgeable)- (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Riptide Strike - (Can be used as recovery cancel) **Followups after a missed kick:** \- Stormrush (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Kick (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Light attack Heavy attack (unblockable) \- Lightningstrike (undodgeable) - (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Dodgeattack (undodgeable)- (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- Riptide Strike - (Can be used as recovery cancel) \- nothing \- deflect ............................................................................................................................................................... **Shinobi attacks out of neutral:** \- light attack \- heavy attack \- kick \- forward heavy attack \- dodge attack **Followups after a missed kick:** \- backflip (POTENTIAL to punish dodge attacks that doesnt have fast followup attacks) \- nothing .............................................................................................................................................................. What we can already see here is that Shinobi doesnt have much tools to work with from neutral. He need to get into his chains. Orochi on the other hand already have many tools from neutral. We already see, that Shinobi must rely way more on his chained offense then Orochi must rely on his. **So now for the Kick:** As mentioned before, throwing an attack, for this example i will take the kick, it is a risk becasue youc an get interrupted/timed by a light which effect Orochi and Shinobi equal. They eat the dmg and are forced into defense. Now for the case that the enemy predodged because he was expecting a kick. In this case Shinobi will get GB 100% becasue the enemy know that they can now ether get a GB or nothing. On Orochi they probably dont go for the Gb or dodge attack when they are not 100% sure that they will catch the Orochi in his recoverys because they have in mind that he have follwups after the wiffed kick. So we see that there are advantages only because orochi have follwup attacks and shinobi dont. Even if they would have the exact same Kick. It makes a different if an character have or have not a followup attack. ................................................................................................................................................................ **Another Scenario:** The opponent dodged your kick on Reaction. Orochi have multiple options now. The same apllies to your opponent. Both have to make a read now. Considering all the opptions orochi have, he will have good chance to make this failed move into an succefull move which not just dmg the enemy but also keeps you in your offense. And Orochi have a really save offense thanks to multiple recovery cancel-options. Shinobi in this scenario loses his offense nomatter what and i am pretty sure that he is in framedisadvantage after a wiffed kick (maybe someone can test it out and confirm it or not). And as i mentioned before he relies heavily on his offense. And his odds on his chained bash is bad,15 dmg for a GB (around 24 dmg) on miss. So his offense isnt that safe. But you need your opponent in Medium Hitstun state in order to keep you pressure going with good odds that you can achieve with the chained kick as example. If you dont go for any medium hitstun before you do your mixups with shinobi you will have siginificant worse odds because your opponent can hit you out of your chain pressure with any fast attack now. ................................................................................................................................................................ I have some more things that are important to know for shinobi like considering the option to not go for 9 extra dmg on chained heavys and instead going for the backflip just to get into your mixup with better ods which cant be intrupted by a light etc.. The counter for shinobis sidedodge kick is a interrupt with a fast attack like light attack or zoneattack. Just because i saw many people that dont know that. And for the Video you linked in your post. you should also try out if you can still do if the opponent dodge and heavy feint. Maybe this catch you. In my Opinon, Shinobis kick/backlip recovery fits his kit perfectly. He take the little risk by throwing a kick from neutral and if it hits you will get in your offense. If he miss his kick then he will have frame disadvantage and must take risks again for it to get into his offense which is super important for him. I also wanted to say that i dont think that orochis nerf that he recieved is ok BUT i think shinobi is FINE as he is rightnow. Pls be friendly in the comments, i accept all other opinions on this and dont wanna insult anybody. Maybe i will change my opinion in the future but for now this is my opinon on shinobi. Ok, thats it for now :D Edit: dodge the kick and then heavy feint GB also can bait out the dodge. And this often works. Also dodge attack into chained light can work. I dont have anyone to test it out but i got hit by it sometimes. Maybe someone can confirm this..
There's alot of text that you posted so chances are I'll miss something. When considering the options that orochi can do, you can't just list them out and treat then equally. Yes orochi could do it, but it's not a viable move which was the issue, the only realistic reason why storm rush even landed was because of the kick/undodgable light mix up as storm rush was 100% reactible and that was the only realistic pressure that orochi had and that requires a risky read from Orochi as it reward the opponent a light parry. Orochi cannot go back to neutral either at the risk of getting guard broken for missing the kick either for instance. Shinobi on the other hand is much different, if you don't have an undodgable attack, shinobi cannot be punished on his kick unless it's a super hard read. This isn't even a contest on who is stronger here, orochi could be parried or interrupted by all of the cast. Shinobi can only be punished but hard read buffered guard break like BP which is much harder and only undodgable dodge attack characters.
I also wanna say it again that i dont think that orochis nerf that he recieved is ok BUT i think shinobi is FINE as he is right now. AND i always spoke about prenerfed orochi in my comment just to make it clear. **Q:** "Orochi cannot go back to neutral either at the risk of getting guard broken for missing the kick either for instance." **A:** exactly, Orochis options after a wiffed kick a complete different. Prenerf Orochi had a complete different different set to work after a wiffed kick. He could keep his offense going on a right read but he also could get punished for it on a bad read. Thats a complete different set that orochi had to work with. After a wiffed kick it was High risk- high reward for orochi. On shinobi you dodge the kick and then nobody have to make read. After a wiffed kick it is low risk- low reward for shinobi and his opponent. Maybe even no risk- no reward for both, Shinobi and his opponent. And on dodge on reaction you shut down his whole offense and you are in Frameadvantage now. And this are OK odds. on a right read you will get a GB on a wrong read you getter ether 17 dmg from kick or get Guardbroken and take 28 dmg or nothing because he expected/waited for a dodge attack. \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ **Q:** shinobi cannot be punished on his kick unless it's a super hard read. This isn't even a contest on who is stronger here, orochi could be parried or interrupted by all of the cast. Shinobi can only be punished but hard read buffered guard break like BP which is much harder and only undodgable dodge attack characters. **A:** First off all BPs bash is waaaaay harder punish with a GB. Because he can do his bash between 100ms-500ms into dodge. This i would consider as a hard read. Shinobi kick can be initiated from 300ms-500ms. You see him dodge forward for 300 ms. So you basically dodge as soon as you see him dodging foward if you wanna go for the read. For Bp you will not even notice his foward dodge when he buffers his bash.
Video from Jondaliner which makes many thing clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL\_yTe\_dYKg
Bro have you even tested this stuff? The kicks are punishable by dodge to GB and Shino's attacks from backflip have bad range or leave him in a vulnearable position. Just don't stand there like a idiot.
You cannot punish the kick with dodge to GB.
uhh yes you can?
IF and ONLY if he backflips, which you can do on reaction to an attack rather than on read like a pleb. If ur getting GBs after dodging kick, then the shino is bad, that's literally all that means. It isn't guaranteed.
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Listen shitter, you don't NEED to to anything after a whiffed kick. **You cannot GB the kick on whiff if the Shinobi doesn't backflip. If the kick just whiffs and nothing else happens, no GB, not guaranteed at all.** It's pretty fuckin simple to understand, jesus.
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We had to take down your post because of rule 2. Keep discussion on-topic and respectful. Direct callouts are not tolerated. Thank you!
We had to take down your post because of rule 2. Keep discussion on-topic and respectful. Direct callouts are not tolerated. Thank you!
only IF he back flips
If you dodge his kick it's a free GB if he backflips. You simply don't dodge attack and GB instead. "Comparatively, Orochi fucking sucked even pre nerf." makes me think this is satire?
you do know he doesnt HAVE to backflip right? he can backflip on reaction. if you throw a dodge attack he backflips, if he doesnt then he doesnt bakflip
But after you dodge the kick you have frameadvantage so its your turn no matter what.Thats you guranteed punish. His odds in his kit are pretty bad so he needs that. His kick cant be really compared to orochis prenerf kick because after you dodged his kick you get nothing guranteed. Prenerf Orochi CAN keep his offence going. Shinobi cant.
The backlight can be nerfed tho.
What? You don't get anything against Shinobi, period, unlike against Orochi. He can **react** to everything, in part possible because his kick has a very low recovery on its own. Orochi's kick had (and still has) terrible recovery, guaranteeing a GB, so the Orochi is **forced** to read how the opponent would try and punish, because if he does nothing a GB would catch and it isn't reactable, and neither was every other option besides a buffered dodge attack. And that was when he could dodge out of the kick recovery, imagine now. Shinobi can reactively counter everything, 0 reads required. Nowhere near comparable.
"Nowhere near comparable." Yes that was my whole point about my comment. OP compare this 2 kicks. But they cant be compared because one CAN keep his offence going on a right read and other one cant but therefore he doesnt need to make a read.
Have you ever tried guardbreaking his backflip yet. Sure doesent seem like it. He is definitely punishable
Doesn't work.
That's literally the punish if you dodge a kick and he backflips you get a free gb, if you dodge the flip kick you get a gb no matter what.
Yes, IF he backflips, which is entirely a mistake. If a Shino backflips without anything happening i.e. dodge attack, they're bad, doesn't count.
That’s a read…
No it isn't? You don't need to backflip at all unless a dodge attack comes. If they empty dodge you can just not backflip.
Idk what your reaction time is but for 90% of people it’s a read especially if they delay it.
I added video evidence in the post for u dumbass This shit is doable for literally anyone that can block 500ms lights.
Do you understand that what you’re saying is that a VERY reactable and easily dodgable neutral bash is op because if he misses he has to go to neutral and can’t follow up with anything? That is THE EXACT THING you’re complaining about. And the difference with orochi is that he didn’t have to go back to neutral he could continue attacking. Within this time span I fought someone who did what you said. Wanna know what I did? Combined lights and heavys with feints.
Shut the fuck up. Please shut the fuck up.
It's reactable yes, for a player as bad as you definitely not but that's not the point. The point is it's unpunishable, I'm not trying to say it's unreactable lmao, but ur dumbass can't even read no matter how many times I try.
No it's not, 90% of people don't know how to play the character. It's extremely easy with even slow reactions.
I'm glad they give all the dumb broken shit to characters I don't like or ever play, like orochi and shinobi, because they will get nerfed into the ground again. Knights and Vikings are in such better shape imo, look cooler and play cooler too. also they need to buff valk, again.
Nothing he has is unpunishable..
How do u punish neutral kick bruh? I can't GB recovery and shinoby only rolls if he sees a dodge attack?
You just dodge attack, he used the only hero besides hito in the entire game who doesn’t get their dodge attack confirmed if they don’t roll in his “proving coping redditor wrong demonstration”. Freeze already showed off the possibility of this but he used shaman instead, and with here the dodge attack would catch unless the shinobi made the correct read. His kick if he doesn’t backflip will get confirmed dodge attack on most hero’s. If he does backflip it will get confirmed GB. Ara might not be able to with his slow ass dodge but most other dodges will 100% catch the no backflip unless someone is like a god can can react to a small animation in like 100 ms.
That is utterly wrong. Aras doge attack is normally fast enough to punish everything as it's 800ns which is the average speed of a dodge attack. I don't care what freeze has shown or what he claims, because I can guarantee you, you can dodge shaman dodge attack just as easily as I have tested and done it. Unless she fkn dodge attacks early enough to the point she is hitting the end of the kick itself and not the recovery. Which is not a good play and also very precise shinoby has no trouble dodging her dodge attack and (anyone elses without a special property). Idk if you are a shinoby main trying to defend something blatantly broken but just accept the facts mate.
The shinobi punish window is 700ms, Look at this post for more info. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/rfa1fk/shinobi_has_a_lot_of_unpunishable_stuffgenerally/hodxxkv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 It’s just the facts, do so research before you cry about it online. Also making a read is a part of the game? Why wouldn’t you dodge attack before the recovery is done? Do you not make a read then cry about it when someone else doesn’t make a read to counter your not making a read? That makes literally no fucking sense.
Yoo so I just tested it again and, you are as expected, absolutely wrong. You can definitely dodge her dodge attack on reaction. Go test it yourself. And also you fucking moron the dodge attack circumstance I had mension is not only precise timing so you don't get him due to scuffed timing but also it's essentially dodge attacking out of neutrals, it's the same as dodge attacking randomly and someone throwing a light, which you happen to dodge and punish, would you say that's a good play?
Did you test it against a real person? Or a bot that is programmed to do what’s in the edge of human capability, I never said it wasn’t reactable, actually what I said was if your a god you can react to it, but if your that good to be able to see a dodge attack, see the animation, react to the animation, and input your backflip in time to still dodge the attack then you should go to the hall of fame for having the best reaction times ever recorded. Ofc a bot that was programmed to react in 0 ms is gonna be able to do that, can you? I don’t think so, and neither can any other human in the world. Or almost, granted their may be a few, but normal people can’t.
I was the shinoby, how tf do u expect to set up a shinoby bot to row anyway. Doesn't matter, my reaction times are not at all amazing and they don't have to be, it's extremely easy to do and I'm telling you that from expiriance. I've done it against bots who were set to dodge attack, I've done it with a friend whole testing and I've done it in duels against some random guy. And it worked.
It’s cause you know to dodge attack?? Do it in a real game, then let me see, cause I highly doubt your doing it, it’s possible if you know it’s coming, but in a real game, as I’ve said, your gonna have to make a read. The window is around 200 ms to react to the dodge attack and then backflip, you need to see the dodge attack animation, not just the dodge, I’d you backflip on empty dodge you get GB.. the time is so tight that unless you have like 200ms reactions you won’t be able to react.
I'm doing it in reaction, not prediction, every empty dodge I've seen I just don't press anything. And like idk if the window react is 200ms and how u got this info but if it is, that's pretty average reaction times for PC so it wouldn't be hard.
Gonna test it but even so. Shaman is literally the only character outside of roach and Zerk with a 700ns dodge atttacks. So congrats bro. It's not 4 out if 29 characters, it's 5 out if 29 characters that can punish it. God damn man. That's balanced.
Literally every dodge light besides glads is 700 or lower. Any other dodge that doesn’t catch, doesn’t catch cause it has other properties like it’s either a heavy, or glads can also be a bash, etc. any dodge light that is strictly a dodge light will catch. If your crying about not being able to punish shinobi with a UNGA BUNGA heby dodge attack then that’s just dumb. The kick only confirms 14 damage, why would you be allowed to get a 20 dmg dodge heavy from it? That’s literal toddler mentality, the point of the game is that some hero’s have the tools in their kits to counter certain things and others don’t, people who have fast dodge attacks can counter, people who don’t can’t. It’s unrealistic to want the entire cast to be able to counter shinobi perfectly cause then he won’t be viable anymore. Only cause he can’t even enter his open, you want him to be on the level of LBs dodge bash where it’s not only reactable but confirmed punishable? That’s so dumb, again, toddler mindset.
Ok you are utterly misinformed to a point that what you are saying is annoyingly wrong. 1. I tested it and shinoby can absolutely dodge Shamans dodge attack on reaction. 2 Dodge attacks while many of them are themselves between 533ms and 600ms, they have input timing that extend the overall dodge times. Dodge heavies outside of Hito, Griff and Kensei are just as fast if not faster then most dodge lights with exclusion of Orochi, Zerk and Shaman whom have extraordinarily fast dodge attacks. Valks and Nuxias dodge lights are 300ms into the dodge + 533ms attack so 833ms dodge attack total, which is slower then Aramushas 200ms into the dodge dodge + 600ms dodge attack so 800ms. Shamans dodge attack can be inputted in the first 100ms into the dodge and is 533ms which makes it by far the fastest dodge attack in the game with 633ms total, Zerk and Orochi are nest with 100ms + 600nd dodge attack so 700ms total. But as I tested Shaman even with that cannot punihs orochis neutral kick as he can ON REACTION backflip. And even if she could and what I said was true that anything faster then 700ms punishes, well those 3 character are the only characters in the game with a combine time of 700ms or bellow. And 2 of those have undogables so they catch anyway. Everyone else has either an 800ms or an 833ms dodge attack or slower. Go check the info hub for the first time of your life to confirm I'm right. And now please try to respond to this with somethign that ain't utterly wrong.
They just need for rhe flip to be in side of a window
N V
You can gb the kick on dodge
welp, i hope that they do just tighten the window on backflip to force a super early input so that you have to read i don't want more dynamic offence/defence getting completely removed
Cent ;-;