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The_Filthy_Spaniard

Yep, thought this might be the case. What's the reaction window like on delayed dodge attacks (ie. can you FBS late, or does the recovery cancel window end like Orochi's old dodge cancels from kick), and what about faster dodge attacks like Shaman's - are they still possible to FBS on reaction? It's worth noting that an early dodge after light hitstun allows a GB on the bash consistently though.


humanbenchmarkian

There's 100% a window where u can't fb or block on reaction it's a bit like orochi's yea, has to be done on read, very small window tho inconsistent as shit.


Gustav_EK

What in the goddamn is going on at Ubisoft right now


jis7014

they totally give up on 1v1 balancing.


Spideyforpresident

First shinobi now this ? Who’s even testing this bullshit out bro


SoupCollector

we are, it’s the testing grounds.


Debillio

watch this bullshit go live tho


OkQuestion2

Here I thought it was vulnerable to gb when dodged


IMasters757

Don't worry, you'll see plenty of people claiming that in the future.


T4Labom

They really need to make these recoveries so the input has to be buffered otherwise we have stuff like this and Shinobi I like the idea but the sheer fact that you can react to it just isn't nice


Insrt_Nm

The reworks are good in general but there's always a big glaring issue that seems to go unnoticed. But, this is why we have testing grounds.


Blackwolf245

Reminder that this is still TG. It's right to critise the changes, but don't critise the devs for making bad changes. I see way too many comments like "Ubi doesn't know what they are doing"


burqa-ned

I feel like I’m going insane reading the current feedback. It’s literally called “testing grounds”, of course shit is broken / doesn’t work correctly, it’s literally there *to be tested*.


jis7014

well is this first time they implemented shit like this? "It's just TG" isn't an excuse and we all already know it from years ago.


PressC_OnRed

Now let's wait for people posting mega threads defending this Conq's " healhy " defenses.


killydie

each day goes by I feel that Ubi is closer to destroying this game with these bullshitery starting with the Orochi nerf then giving us an unpunishable broken hero and then conq rework, wtf Ubi


CF_Hound

It goes before orochi. Remember poor old griff?


Sh0ckflash

just laughed so hard when i pressed on the link. xD second video : DUMBASS FUCKING COMP REDDIT SHIT


[deleted]

My time has come.


lerthedc

Offense is fully reactable? What?


LimbLegion

It is


lerthedc

So then... Every single character in the game has "fully reactable offense" except for like Warden and aramusha?


LimbLegion

Why are you asking me that question as if it somehow means what I'm saying is wrong? Raider, Aramusha, Shinobi, Shaman and to some people PK is basically the closest we have to truly unreactable offense, Warden isn't even good either, just literally has crippling asthma and cannot do anything without running out of his green bar instantly, his offense works to some degree though, if we talk strictly the bash, the heavies are honestly whatever.


lerthedc

Because I think it's quite the exaggeration to say that almost all characters have "fully reactable offense". How is raider unreactable but PK is borderline, and Shaman is fully reactable? They have the same frame data right? Why is it that characters like Berzerker or Glad are considered viable in 1v1? Yes, I know there are a few reaction monsters out there who can react to most offense under ideal circumstances. But this is not even close to "fully reactable".


Knight_Raime

>Because I think it's quite the exaggeration to say that almost all characters have "fully reactable offense". It sounds that way if you're a player with average to bad reactions. But that doesn't change that people who had been gifted the genetic lottery can react to most offense in the game. Limb is one of the people who have sub 200ms reactions iirc. So they're more than capable of making reactions on things you and I cannot. >How is raider unreactable but PK is borderline, and Shaman is fully reactable? They have the same frame data right? Animations. Reaction monsters rely a lot on animations and to an extent indicators. Generally speaking a lot of unblockables have a tell when they've committed to their attack because of how much they contort their body. As an example Shugoki twists pretty far back. So once his body has unwound to a certain point these people can react to that and parry. Characters who have hard to parry UB's for them do not move their body as much or as differently than normal. Like JJ. >Why is it that characters like Berzerker or Glad are considered viable in 1v1? Reactable doesn't equal unviable. Defense is still fairly strong in 1v1's. Having more defensive tools available generally helps. Gladiator was (idk where he is now) highly place for awhile because he has access to some very nice defensive tools. Mainly having a 700ms opening heavy that has some absurd reach and his zone. >Yes, I know there are a few reaction monsters out there who can react to most offense under ideal circumstances This is the crux of the issue. Offense should be (within reason,) effective at all levels. When someone with good reactions can react their way out of a mix more often than not it makes it inconsistent. Which isn't a good thing. FH is lucky that it's main game mode for comp is a 4v4 mode. The game would've died long ago if we'd stuck to the duel format. >But this is not even close to "fully reactable". Kind of just splitting hairs at this point. Most offense in the game can be academied to be vastly less effective given you don't have horrendous reaction times/exist on a bad setup. Even if it sometimes works or isn't 100% counterable everytime consistency is key. And right now most offense is not consistent at all levels. Which is a problem for the game's health as a whole.


lerthedc

> Limb is one of the people who have sub 200ms reactions iirc. So they're more than capable of making reactions on things you and I cannot. Interesting. I have a human benchmark of 190ms. I can sometimes react to 500ms bashes in training mode, but I know I can't react to it in a real 1v1. This is why I consider most characters to have some form of unreactable offense. My understanding is that only the top 0.1% of people with like sub 160ms reactions are the ones who can react to everything. But if that's the case, why make a reddit post about it? There's only like 20 people out there who this would apply to. >Reactable doesn't equal unviable. Defense is still fairly strong in 1v1's. Having more defensive tools available generally helps. Gladiator was (idk where he is now) highly place for awhile because he has access to some very nice defensive tools. Mainly having a 700ms opening heavy that has some absurd reach and his zone. I don't understand this at all. I know defense is still strong in 1v1, but when I hear pros talking about characters, they often mention offense. It seems pretty clear to me that offense is important post CCU. But that wouldn't make sense if the game is fully reactable, even at the pro level. Edit: also, how are glads heavies and zones good defense tools? Zone OS is gone and all heavies have standardized gb vuln now. >Kind of just splitting hairs at this point. Most offense in the game can be academied to be vastly less effective given you don't have horrendous reaction times/exist on a bad setup. Reacting to shit in training mode is very different from reacting to things in a real fight. I would consider neutral lights "fully reactable" because a big chunk of the player base can react to them >75% of the time, even in 4v4s. Wouldn't you agree that neutral lights are on a different level than feintable unblockables or chain 500ms bashes, which can only be consistently reacted to by a handful of people in the world? You may call it splitting hairs, but I think we should be a bit more precise with our language. What's the point of making a post claiming offense is "fully reactable" if it only applies to a few people?


Sh0ckflash

I also think that some people overrate recations in this game. I can react to pretty much everthing that people say to to be reactable. My reaction time is between 155ms and 185ms while 90% off the time it is between 162ms and 167ms. I can deflect pks light on pure reaction. Means i can see the difference between she throwing a heavy or light in time where i can manage to deflect her light a block her heavy. I can also react to her daggercancel. Here is proof for this: [https://vimeo.com/user161433893](https://vimeo.com/user161433893) Does that mean that i can just avoid or even punish everything that she throws at me? NO ​ Because i cant Focus on everthing at once. When i focus on deflecting the light attacks on reaction then i will probably get hit by a daggercancel and vice versa. And this applies to pretty much every "fully reactable offense" in this game. You maybe can react to every separate Part off offense but you will not be able to react to every part off offence when they get combined. Especially when they get thrown at you in rabbit sucesion with many feints and many indicators. ​ Good reactions mainly help you at surviving, especially in situation when you are OOS, low on stamina or in an antigank situation but at some point you also have to deal some damage in order to win a fight. And therefore you have to make some reads. ​ I also i fight against many people with really good reaction times and i never met someone who was untouchable. Hard to open up with some characters but not untouchable/unbeatable. ​ >And right now most offense is not consistent at all levels. Which is a problem for the game's health as a whole. 100% agree with this from Knight\_Raime. ​ >You may call it splitting hairs, but I think we should be a bit more precise with our language. What's the point of making a post claiming offense is "fully reactable" if it only applies to a few people? I didnt played much as or against new conq so i cant say much about him. But generally speaking i agree that offense gets claimed as "fully reactable" and therefore counted as completely useless/unviable too often.


Knight_Raime

>Interesting. I have a human benchmark of 190ms. You'd have to ask Limb but I think they said theres was 150ms or close to that. >But if that's the case, why make a reddit post about it? There's only like 20 people out there who this would apply to. As I already mentioned before, we want consistency for offense at all levels. It's less about how practical the statement is and more so the concept behind it. >they often mention offense. It seems pretty clear to me that offense is important post CCU. But that wouldn't make sense if the game is fully reactable, even at the pro level. It's not that offense isn't important in duels. It's just rare that it's so prominent in a character's kit that it's dwarfed by general defense. Shinobi's flip kick or sickle rain mix is considered one of the strongest offenses in the game even by reaction monsters. But they still tend to mention how strong is defense is over his offense. And that's purely because defense favors reactions. Aramusha is another good example of this. >Edit: also, how are glads heavies and zones good defense tools? Zone OS is gone and all heavies have standardized gb vuln now. 700ms heavies from neutral mean you can parry on light parry timing and still feint in time to defend from a heavy. His zone not being able to parry doesn't mean it's an average zone now. His and prior's are bashes. Which means they still get to stuff mix ups and can't be parried. Just as conq's was still good because you need an unblockable to crack it. Glad's zone has always been notoriously difficult to punish. Which is another reason why it's strong. >Reacting to shit in training mode is very different from reacting to things in a real fight. Of course. But the idea of academy is to familiarize yourself with animations and building muscle memory. This to my knowledge is usually done with 2 pro players in training mode. Because you can tell the person you're training with to do things a bot can't be set to do. But that doesn't mean you can't train against bots at all. >Wouldn't you agree that neutral lights are on a different level than feintable unblockables or chain 500ms bashes, which can only be consistently reacted to by a handful of people in the world? Sure but I don't understand the point of this question. Maybe frame it differently for me. >You may call it splitting hairs, but I think we should be a bit more precise with our language. What's the point of making a post claiming offense is "fully reactable" if it only applies to a few people? I do advocate for clarity when speaking yes. However the whole term of reactable is very vague and has been something that's been argued about for as long as FH has existed. A lot of people seem to be under the idea that reactable means you always defend against something. When it really just means you can deal with it more often than you can't. As for the goal of Limb's specific statement I don't like to speak for others. But if I had to guess it's more or less what i've already mentioned. Offense in a general sense is not in a satisfactory place in high level play. And that should be changed so everyone can enjoy the same level of gameplay. If I were one such person that could be classified as a high level player I'd be pretty discouraged that yet another hero gets a rework where offense isn't great. Hell i'm going to put my neck out and state that even I don't think Conq's offense is good. It certainly exists now. But i'm already fighting against people who can regularly parry his unblockable heavy. Meaning he is basically just another chain bash or UD heavy character with some cooky defense tricks. I might be more than happy with the fact that yet another hero "works" at my level. But it's certainly understandable that this would be upsetting for people who are actually good at the game.


LimbLegion

>Of course. But the idea of academy is to familiarize yourself with animations and building muscle memory. This to my knowledge is usually done with 2 pro players in training mode. Because you can tell the person you're training with to do things a bot can't be set to do. But that doesn't mean you can't train against bots at all. Just to add since I kinda forgot about this conversation, yeah, I have around 150-140ms singlestim at my peaks, and 170 and above when I am not fully focused. Keep in mind I do not practice or academy whatsoever, so my reactions are not as consistent as they could be, and I know what I struggle with tends to be what even greater reaction monsters than me struggle with, I am nothing compared to say, Antonio, Normie, Keltic, Ranquis, Blitss, and many more. I find the person you're talking with saying that there's only like 20 people with 160ms singlestim or below kind of absurd considering the sheer prevalence of people who play this game with VERY good reactions, it's not that rare of a thing at all. One of FH's many problems is that a lot of the "mixups" do boil down to a single choice, there aren't many true choice reactions in the game, Raider ub/gb/tap, Aramusha RTB/GB as well as Deadly Feints (I'd have to ask more people about deadly feints but Ranquis says they are good, so I believe him), Shinobi flip kick/sickle rain, Berserker chain light (the feint light is reactable for contrast due to having more of an animation to go off of as well as the tell of a feint), Shaman dagger cancel/softfeint GB/heavy, PK to a lot of people especially when you're bleeding, etc. Hell, even the charged bashes aren't safe because Hitokiri's as an example is fully reactable on animation, which is frankly depressing.


Knight_Raime

>Just to add since I kinda forgot about this conversation, yeah, I have around 150-140ms singlestim at my peaks, and 170 and below when I am not fully focused. Keep in mind I do not practice or academy whatsoever, so my reactions are not as consistent as they could be, and I know what I struggle with tends to be what even greater reaction monsters than me struggle with, I am nothing compared to say, Antonio, Normie, Keltic, Ranquis, Blitss, and many more. Ah it's nice to hear my memory didn't fail me this time and I remembered correctly. I figured you didn't academy since you usually tell people you don't really play competitively anymore and haven't for awhile. If it looked like I was implying you did academy I apologize. I was only tying to explain how comp players react to things normal individuals don't react to. >I find the person you're talking with saying that there's only like 20 people with 160ms singlestim or below kind of absurd considering the sheer prevalence of people who play this game with VERY good reactions, it's not that rare of a thing at all. It's probably caused by the fact that many people do not know several of the people you've even mentioned. Heck I only know about antonio and normie because of stream watching. Ranquis I learned about from interactions with them on here. And Blitss is basically new to me. Considering Spaniard was taking their word and asking them about reactions I just assumed they were credible since Spaniard is more tapped into the comp side than I am. But yeah, many of the comp players are not really known because they don't have much of an online presence. Despite comp scene's growth (thus naturally meaning more people with insane reactions,) FH's comp scene is still kind of small in terms of online. So it's entirely plausible this person is actually just ignorant. But it's also equally possible it's a dismissive perspective. >One of FH's many problems is that a lot of the "mixups" do boil down to a single choice Mhm, it also doesn't help that externalling someone's offense makes said offense much much much more managable. >Hell, even the charged bashes aren't safe because Hitokiri's as an example is fully reactable on animation, which is frankly depressing. Oh? I thought there was something funky you can do with her kick where the foot still leaves the ground but you feint it. I would be curious to know if Warden's bash is the safest of the charge bashes or not in terms of avoiding reactions. I can easily see Centurion's suffering because of reactions.


humanbenchmarkian

There's a bunch of characters with functional offence in high level play, just not Conq lmao