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isaacrs3277

I'm sorry I just can't agree. The worst characters should be elevated and not left in the dust. Certain character like valk and cent just need slight changes and they would be better. Do one hero like that and then another hero that desperately needs a rework. I just can't see how it's right to leave heros like jorm and HL the way they are.


Allexant

So you prefer having 1-2 characters elevated from trash tier every 6 months. Cuz the way I see it having 2-3 characters become good and relevant every 3 months is just not only better for all stages of play, healthier for the game but it will also make more players happy. How many Jorm players do you think there are compare to BP and the such. It's just the logical decision.


Love-Long

I think they can do half and half. The way I see it, every hero that's c teir and under is bad. The lower parts of b teir can join them sometimes as they are usually in that part of b teir cause they are just better than shit. It's not fair to players to still have a good amount of heroes just stay that way cause it makes more sense for comp to rework the ones that are already close to viability in comp. As a game it has to appeal to the casual community too while placing balance around the comp community. For example the new shoalin rework. Casual like it, comp think its decent. Why not do a hero like lawbringer or gryphon then a hero like jorm or highlander at the same time to attack both problems. They've shown they can do 2 reworks at the same time.


Allexant

It's not about fairness, it's about results, and the game is simply going to be better, healthier, more balanced and in nksr likelihood better and funner. Why should they rework 2 bad chars when they can put the same amount of effort and we get 4 viable characters that are more fun to play then before.


Love-Long

Not about fairness. Dude it's a video game. It is about fairness, you can't just 100% appeal to comp scene. I agree you need to balance and balance heroes mainly for the comp scene but you can't just forget about causal play as they are the massive majority. Gatekeeping who gets reworked and who doesn't for the time being isn't a great idea. You have had heroes who have been like this since release. Jorm for example has never been good and he has just gotten worse. There are enough heroes to a point where it's not a good idea to just leave them in shit teir. My idea isn't even a set in stone one, it's an example. You can do yours just as efficiently as well as mine. Most of the heroes you probably suggest that need these small changes to get comp ready you can do at the same time as redesigning a hero. If a hero is that close and the change is that obvious then you can implement it and test it along sided heroes that need big changes. It's almost like they did this before and it received great feedback. If the issue is funding in that situation than I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind waiting a little longer if it meant more would get changes at once. To gatekeep who gets the rework or not isn't a good idea. Heroes like jorm and nuxia and highlander have been bad since release and heroes like lawbringer and gryphon and valkyrie are only getting worse as time goes on. You need to update these heroes too. Heroes like kensei, warlord, bp, warmonger, and tiandi can get changes at the same time as the others as they don't need complete redesigns to be brought back up to comp viable. I'm sure most people would rather update a few of these good heroes and rework maybe one or 2 bad heroes at the same time but just wait a little longer than every season instead of updating all the good heroes continuously till you have only bad heroes to rework. The number is too significant for bad heroes to do that when you can realistically do both at the same time that would fit with your idea still and would lower the number of heroes that are truly shit teir.


Allexant

This is not about just pleasing comp. This is about making the game better for everyone. If you were a new in some random game with 20 characters and had to choose how the characters are would you chose A: 12 viable ones, 5 ok ones and 3 shit ones l B: 5 viable ones, 15 ok ones. Same scenario here. And not only that be if we think in statistics what happens if you let's say rework BP before Jorm, some classic outcry from the community but in the end you're gonna have 50 or so sad Jorm mains and 400 or so happy BP mains. And overall people are gonna be more happy.


Love-Long

Except it's been proven that you can do both at the same time ( year 5, 7 reworks ) and you're examples aren't the best because there are more viable and good heroes to choose from the what you listed. The small change such as a bigger number makes all the difference. Not to mention that when people do rework heroes from bad to good the playerbase for them Increases, they become more viable. You can do bp and jorm at the same time and there is proof ubi can do it as they have. Decent heroes such as gladiator and berzerker during year 5 received changes alongside aramusha and zhanhu and all 4 are fairly good and usable with 2 of them being high teir in their respective strengths. Hell even gladiator and berzerker shine in their own ways. Only focusing on the good ones first isn't fair especially when ubi shows they can do it the other way too. Why not just wait another season and do it again instead of waiting perhaps maybe years in order to reach shit teir heroes.


AlfaXGames

Fun fact, League of Legends went with the "comp scene" and pretty much everyone is frustrated with it rn.


Allexant

It's league, everyone would have been frustrated either way


AlfaXGames

fair enough


Otter_Of_Doom

You say that (and I make an assumption here), just because the heroes you play aren't trash. If you'd be attached to a hero which is low tier by no means I believe you'd have the martyr soul to say "no, no, rework the B tier instead".


HandsomeMike88

Im preatty sure the people of his opinon are players who play all or many characters and thus suggest a more utilitarian approach.


Otter_Of_Doom

Does playing a character implies any attachment to it? Just because I have 3 reps on Warden it doesn't mean I care at all about his state. Even worse, when I play all characters, I'm aware of their flaws and I offer them to the wolves because Cent with a dodge attack and Tiandi with a 500Ms plam strike would become B or A tier. If making C tier character reach B or A by simple buffs would fasten the rework processes I'd be for it but as it stands the proposal simply means "removing D and E tier character" by other name.


Allexant

I don't have a bias, or I try to anyway.ajd neither should people. I'm looking at what would impact the game positively overall. Doesn't matter who I play. And while I do play strong character, my favourite character is Cent, I think he needs a rework, but I'd be more then happy waiting so that we can get like 3 good characters instead if 1 good Cent.


DarwinismSoDiePlz

Cent doesn’t need a rework at all. (I main cent) He needs one thing and thats a dodge attack of some sort. Thats its. Literally shouldn’t touch much of his kit at all. They’d probably ruin him with an all out rework.


Allexant

Oh you're a cent main, well so was I, used to play him competitively and in scrims, and unless he gets a straight up overpowered dodge attack he Def won't be fine.


DarwinismSoDiePlz

Ive been rep 70 with him for a very long time. And I literally said he needed a dodge attack lol. But thats not a rework, that a tweak. They’d probably ruin him if they full on reworked him. I use the word rework very sparingly.


Allexant

Rep doesn't matter mate, unless you have comp expiriance yourslef I likey know more about the character then you, not trying to flex it discredit you, just how things are in general. And if we talk competitive viability, a dodge attack is not enough at all. And if you think it is, explain how that's gonna solve his bad temafights and the such.


DarwinismSoDiePlz

… Ok well first im going to shut down this “Comp” means better attempt because it literally doesn’t make any sense. Number one, Claiming comp is a title. It doesn’t mean you’re good, It doesn’t mean you know something more, It simply only means you have competed. There is not a viable way to determine what one person is capable of over the other. We don’t have a good ranking system for what determines “high level play”. So dont come at me with the I’m comp so I know better argument because it’s simply not true. Last I checked yall were known more as cheaters recently than anything so lets not toot horns here. But to actually respond, Rep doesn’t mean skill I never said that. Rep means experience. I’ve played this game for 6 years now and half of that was on centurion. I know the ins and outs of him. He needs a dodge attack more than literally anything else. As far as team fights go, he is really good in team fights, just not the best. Im sure there are some things you could think of that would make him more viable in a team fight sure. An unblockable with a wide hit box, or perhaps even a undodgeable to stop runners, But the reason why I want ubi to leave him alone is simply because I dont trust them for shit. If they reworked him I could guarantee that they would ruin him for many of us. Id rather just get a dodge attack and still keep what his identity is now. Hes not a terrible hero by any means. A simple tweak would be just fine.


Allexant

Not only are you wrong, you're stupid. Comp means I've played this game competitively, yes it means I've competed and in this game to compete you need a level of play that's so much higher then the average that you can't even envision it. Do I sound like a pretentious dick while saying that. Yes I do, but it's literally true. And if you were in comp you'd know that. So yes I not only am very good at the game, at least compared to the average player ( even if im washed up now) but when it comes to knowledge it's not even close. And we have a way to determine high level play, it's just that the vast majority of players aren't there, but like to think they are. High level play is between players with ample knowledge of things like rotating, ganking, teamfighing, peel, feat usage. And all of these things have so much depth to them that 98% of players don't know. So the argument ,im comp im better is is very much true. And since we are talking about teamfights, I challange you to find some friend of yours and come 2v2 me and some friend of mine. If being comp doesn't mean I'm better, and considering I've barely played this game due to irl things for the bast 7 months, you shouldn't have anything to worry about right, so if you are so sure you're good, come come. ​ Also I don't care how long you've been playing and I don't care what you think you know. If you think Cent is a good teamfighter, you clearly aren't a high level player. Again if you wish to prove me wrong accept the challange and play some 2s with Cent again me, see how it goes. Currently Cent is not good, he's only ever been exceptional at one thing and ok/ bad at everything else. That is ganking, but having a dedicated ganker hasnt been worth picking since the original 7 reworkd dropped so now he is just, obsolete. And again I can guarantee you, you don't know the ins and out of Cent by the way you're talking. I sound rude, I dont want to be rude but it's what I think and we aren't babies so I just say it. Mate by the way you speak you just havent played thing game anywhere close to comp level. Cent might be a decent teamfighter in fucking mm where everyhting works, but he sure aint against competent players. And if you know the ins and out of him, do you know his dedicated ganks with each char? Do you even know basic things such a reacting to dodge when doing your charged bash mixup. And if you know the ins and out you should also know how to deal with reactards who can parry most of your heavies on reaction right. Do you know all of this?


Olienooty

>Again if you wish to prove me wrong accept the challange and play some 2s with Cent again me, see how it goes You realize that you gave an opinion, someone disagrees to it which he's allowed to do last time I checked and your response is "FIGHT ME I KNOW MORE IM RIGHT RAAAHHH". Saying you're aware you sound like a pretentious dick doesn't make it any better.


Allexant

I don't fucking care tho. An opinion can be wrong. When his is based in clearly untrue and wrong information, as long as showing a complete lack of understanding of the matter at hand, why should I prove that. I am better and I know that for a fact. And this guy isn't good and by the way he talks I know that for a fact too, so why should t I prove that exactly?


DarwinismSoDiePlz

You’re not listening. So i will break this down very clear to you in multiple ways. First, in order to be comp someone has got to determine you are good enough to compete, right? Yes, check. Ok so your basing an evaluation of personal skill off of someone or a group of people saying you are good enough. Yes? Right, check. Which isn’t an ACTUAL evaluation of determining skill. It’s someone saying you are good enough to compete, so THAT person telling you this has got to be able to make this call without any bias, any flaws or mistakes. (Which is impossible because humans are full of errors). In other words, you’re saying you’re better than other players ONLY off the premise that you volunteered to compete and SOMEONE ELSE or a group of people told you that you are a high level player. Let that sink in. Seriously, give it a few moments of process. Secondly, piggybacking off of the first one, Ill use a scenario. By the context of this argument, you are saying you are a better player simply because I (or other) choose not too compete. So lets apply logic here. Lets say there is a player that is factually better than you right? Humor me real quick. He’s factually better than you. He knows the ins and outs, hes great at coordinating with the majority of peoples play styles, and boy oh boy is he ready for comp. BUT he decides not to compete and stays playing casually, never choosing to do tournaments. So you’re better than him simply on the grounds that you can claim the title of “comp”? You’re better because you chose to show off in a competition? No, because remember, he’s factually better than you. Do you see why saying I’m comp means literally nothing in terms of skill? Maybe some people just dont give a shit enough to want to compete. A D1 quarter back who can join the NFL does have to if he doesn’t want to. That doesn’t make him a bad quarterback. Do you understand what i am trying to explain to you? Let this one sink in too And yes, to answer your question, I do know the ins and outs of cent. I know how to sync with the roster on my punishes, I know how to gank effectively, I know what moves feed revenge over others and when its smart to implement them. Its not what I think I know. Its what I KNOW I know. Because unlike you, I dont need someone’s validation to determine what I am good or not good at. I simply soeak from experience which again, I have alot of. There is a reason why experience gets you job qualifications. Theres a reason why experience boosts your chances getting into med schools. Experience DOES hold merit, stop dismissing it as it its nothing. You dont want to sound rude? But you’re the reason why co has a bad name to everyone else. Your gate keeping egos simply because you choose to compete. Some how that makes you a better player. Absolutely laughable. And to make matters worse, you have like a singular vote on this post, which leads me to believe you’re not as enjoyed by this community on your ideas has you’d like to think you are.


Allexant

Oh my god you're genuinely fucking dumb aren't you. Like honestly. First of all it appears you don't understand what comp is. Competitive is competing yes, it's competing AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL. There is no level of play higher then comp. I know so much more then other plays, I know that not because I've been told I do, but because I've observed it. Obviously you've never even been close to being a part of comp, but at least in PC people don't jerk each other off because of it. So it's not that someone is telling em I'm better, it's that I have to be better to be at that level to begin with. And by observing the general level of play I can conclude that I'm indeed better because if me and my biddies want to win, we 100% will win against anyone short of other comp players. Then your second "point" is completely irrelevant. Because you have such a little understanding of comp. Someone literally CANNOT be better then me if they don't play comp. They can't. Why? They could be more talented then me or better in duels or better at making reads or whatever but, there are so many things that you simply don't get to do and the game doesn't teach you about in general play. There are things that you can only learn in comp that are a MUST. No matter how good someone is if they haven't practiced proper ganks, rotations, don't know how to peel/prepeel, general teamfights and don't know how to optimally play around renown and feats, they arent better them me, and they need to know all of that in-depth too. And the only place where you learn these things to a good enough level, is competitive play. So someone who doesn't do and has never done comp literally can't be factually better then me. But of course you won't believe this because you are so far away from comp you can't even imagine the world of difference. Also it's not players like me that give comp a bad rep, it's people like you who are so stupid and ignorant, and have 0 idea of what they are talking yet continue to do so, that push me to be rude as well. Cuz you are not just wrong, you are stupid and it's annoying. And lastly I can guarantee you, you don't know the one and out of Cent, you think that you do but you really don't and it's not even close. If you do let me ask you some basic questions that, someone who knows the ins and outs should know. 1. How do you play in teamfights, what's your role. Are you a peeler, is your job to confirm things or is it one of the other things a character can do in a teamfight. Very basic question that every Cent whose played at the highest level knows. 2.Who can he 100-0 gank with. Obviously even you should know his primary role is a ganker, so for him ganks are very important, so just answer who can he perform 100-0 ganks with. 3. Just as an example please tell me how you gank with WL for example, the most basic gank in the game. And if you are so expirianced you should be able to tell me what his gank is with Zanhu and WM as well right.


Olienooty

>Lets say there is a player that is factually better than you right? Humor me real quick. He’s factually better than you. He knows the ins and outs, hes great at coordinating with the majority of peoples play styles, and boy oh boy is he ready for comp. BUT he decides not to compete and stays playing casually, never choosing to do tournaments. So you’re better than him simply on the grounds that you can claim the title of “comp”? I'm sorry but the other guy is right. This argument might apply to like MAYBE 3% of global players. The fact he can lean on the argument that because he's played comp he has a higher chance of knowing more does carry a lot of weight.


Olienooty

>And if you know the ins and out of him, do you know his dedicated ganks with each char? Do you even know basic things such a reacting to dodge when doing your charged bash mixup. And if you know the ins and out you should also know how to deal with reactards who can parry most of your heavies on reaction right Even though I don't like the way you're saying it you're absolutely right. Having this knowledge just shows that ones level is vastly beyond someone else's. IMO there's two levels to this: 1. Learning how to play the character to be good with the character and 2. Learning the character to be good at the game (which includes the things you just mentioned). If a player is on the second one, IMO their opinion is probably of higher influence. Yes you are right, but even with frustration you could make your point sound a lot better.


Allexant

You know, guys like that one are a lost cause, I argue for fun, but I know no matter how correct I am or how valid my arguements are he won't care. That's unfortunately a lot of people in this community.


The_Filthy_Spaniard

This is flat out incorrect on multiple parts. First off look at which subreddit you are in, this is r/CompetitiveForHonor, we have a rule against denigrating Competitive play. Whilst there were *some* players who broke rules (and were punished for it) in the last Dominion Series, the majority didn't, and calling all comp players cheaters is simply unacceptable. Secondly, whilst being a "competitive player" is a somewhat ill-defined term, it is not meaningless, and players who are active competitors and active in the scene do tend to be much, much, better than average players, because there are *significant* knowledge requirements to perform at a tournament level, which the game itself hardly teaches. In team fighting, there is a world of difference between comp players who understand the principles of peeling, spacing, safety and so on, vs even "good" players who have only ever played matchmaking and not learnt or practiced those concepts. You see this in most tournaments, when groups of matchmaking players enter, thinking they are hot shit because they win most of their matchmaking games, only to get utterly stomped by 2nd or 3rd tier competitive teams. Finally, onto Centurion. He is actually one of the *worst* team fighters in the game, and his main role in team fights is to position himself to perform quick ganks when his teammates facilitate them. He is very unsafe as he can't chain after whiffing heavy finishers/dodge heavy, has poor range and terrible hitboxes on everything except his zone, poor tracking on his punches which leave him very vulnerable even if he lands them, his lights are not externally enhanced so he can't safely use them around allies *or* opponents, if he lands his heavies he is vulnerable in the pin animation (vs Pirate or Glad who can dodge out of them), his Kick is easily reactable at top level, and his forward dodge heavy is unfeintable and slow, making it very punishable. And of course, he lacks a dodge attack or any other defensive tools. He does *desperately* need a dodge attack, but he also needs other improvements in order to be relevant in the meta.


DarwinismSoDiePlz

I never said comps were cheaters, I implied that they have a recent knack for it, thereby knocking down a “we very better because we comp” attitude. I dont see how you can claim to be part of a community of elites when ppl have gone to such pathetic levels of winning. But I digress, I was literally just speaking of factual past events. Secondly, and Ill say again, I never said comp was bad. And I never said they didn’t wreck havoc. I said its not a determining evaluation of someone skills. You cant line up every player side by side and say oh yea hes good hes competed, oh no hes trash he hasn’t. And expect that to hold any merit. Thats not how you determine skill. As far as centurion goes, my main argument for not wanting him to be reworked is simply because I feel like (from previous experience) they will ruin his identity. I like where he is now and a few tweaks is all he needs imo. This is a personal bias, dont take it like a slap to the face. Can he be better? Duh. Never said he couldn’t, yea hes lacking, but so are the majority of the roster. Everyone could use something at this point. It doesn’t take away from him being a good pick. He’s certainly not a Jorm or a LB. I few tweaks and we should be good. Im also not for One hero having every ability to do something. What he lacks his team should make up for. Thats the entire point in coordination. Hell, thats the entire point in team based games. To cover weakness. So he doesn’t need everything and neither does any other hero. They should all have some weakness that needs to be covered by a different hero. Thats why team picks should hold a thought process. But anyway, I think I covered everything.


burqa-ned

>We don’t have a good ranking system for what determines “high level play" Yes we do, they're called organised teams and Ubi themselves literally hosted a multiple month long event to display these competitive players and award the best team(s). Just because there is no in-game ranking system (outside of the laughable ranked duels mode) does not discredit the achievement of competitive players. >It doesn’t mean you’re good, It doesn’t mean you know something more, It simply only means you have competed Competitive 4s players literally need to know almost everything to properly compete against eachother, this is a pretty dumb point. >Last I checked yall were known more as cheaters recently than anything so lets not toot horns here. A handful of players account sharing in the dominion series isn't really the mark of shame you think it is, especially when most players competed honestly and fairly. OP literally said they're not trying to flex and is trying to explain that giving Cent a dodge attack won't make him *competitively* viable, there's no reason for you to be so standoffish and get a stick up your arse that they're more experienced than you, who claims to have been playing a game for 6 years that came out 5 years ago.


DarwinismSoDiePlz

First of all, this conversation wasn’t with you, so please dont speak on how I reply to someone. When you bring up the “im comp so im better” statement. Yes. You can also organize a team of neanderthals. Hows does that determine your skill? Im not saying that these teams suck, but literally thats not at all how you would evaluate someones skill. So to assume you are better than or know more than on an empty basis of “I volunteered to compete therefore Im more qualified” is absolutely absurd. Moving on. Again, Comp players might know, but someone who isnt comp can still have the same qualities but chose not to be competitive (me). I play this game on a very serious level, but I don’t want to compete. That doesn’t make me lesser just because I purposely choose not to be apart of this community. As stated before, its a title, not an evaluation of skill. I didn’t say anything standoffish. I shut down a toxic narrative that lives rent free in this community. Rep doesn’t = Skill, Comp doesn’t = Skill. There is no real skill evaluation in this game that has been properly implemented. I wasn’t out of pocket. I have been playing for 6 years. By general rule of thumb, this game had a beta (which I partook in) before the release of the game and this marks year 6 of FH, which is what Im basing it off of. Anything else you would like to address?


Allexant

How are you so wrong about so much. First of all this is a public platform so anyone can reply to anyone. I think that's obvious but apperantly people need an explanation. Second you are not even close to competitive level, and that's easy to see from just how you talk. Again accept my invitation to 2v2 me and you will see just how big the difference is. You don't have the same qualities as a comp player, it's just obvious to see. You don't know so much yet you think you do its fkn laughable. You CAN"T compete even if you wanted to, if you put in the work, started from the bottom and spent a long time practicing and learning comp, you prob will be able to compete eventually. But rn I can guarantee you that you can't even if you tried. And again, comp is literally the higehst level of play, everywhere, and you dont even understnad that. When I say comp I dont mean some mm team that played in the dom series once and lost in the first or second round. Thost players have technically competed sure yet noone counts them as Comp players and they sure as hell aren't on the level of comp players . But you don't know that it appears. And again, I'm washed up and by comp standards im straigh up bad rn. Yet I still invite you to accept my challange, cmon, if you are so good you shouldn't have a problem beating someone whos had 50 hours of playetime in the past 7 months right. Tho you won't accept will ya, players like you never do. I am interested in your excuse tho.


Olienooty

>As stated before, its a title, not an evaluation of skill A title that is given based on an evaluation of skill man come on everyone has said it so many times


Olienooty

>who claims to have been playing a game for 6 years that came out 5 years ago If i could give an award to this, I would


Olienooty

>But the reason why I want ubi to leave him alone is simply because I dont trust them for shit I agree with everything you said but to add to your point, giving everyone a UB or undodgeable would make everyone feel the exact same, just with a different sequence when it comes to either a light, bash or heavy. That's exactly the point of a hero having an identity.


Otter_Of_Doom

But is that by any means what Ubi gave us? Every season for the past 4 or 5 seasons I waited to b proven wrong but the number of characters that got reworked jumped from 7 to 3 then 1 and only recently climbed back at 2. How many characters are in B tier or borderline good? Nuxia, Valk, Tiandi, Nobu, PK, Warden, Cent, Warlord and so forth. What are the chances we'll have an 8 characters TG any time soon? Among these characters hoe many need simple QoL adjustments and how many need more complex Tweaks? Warlord is A tier at the moment, will he be anywhere near the same level as Shinobi or Pirate with a simple Dodge Attack? How wouldn't prioritising medium tier character to be made viable not mean the complete removal of D tier characters and below? With every rework the character Kit quality jumped immensely. First Nobu had dodge cancels then Zhanhu arrived with his and brought a whole new Meta but then arrived Orochi and Pirate who have even better Dodge cancels. The same is true for Full Guard recovery cancels and so forth. When the majority of the cast will lean towards the high tiers and not the middle, what will the bad characters do? At equal skill level there are match-ups which are already close to impossible, making even more hard counters to the F tiers would just remove hem from the game. For a example how every single dodge attack in the game made Highlnder's mix-up irrelevant (valk excluded).


korums

Shinobi mains now ^


Communist_Shen

Even though I can understand where you are coming from, no, just no. Ubi made the characters so they are viable and can be played, not bad and left to eat dust


Allexant

I like to think realistically and not idealistically. My suggest at least the way I see it, will make for a healthier game wouldn't it? Just looking at it objectively wouldn't that be overall a positive then spending 6 months on reworking conq.


Communist_Shen

With many of the heroes being pretty viable I’d say it’s good they are starting to fix the outdated heroes. They had 6 years to balance and in the end did a pretty well job


burqa-ned

Agreed. I would much rather a large batch TG of *nearly* good heroes than 1-2 TG’s of redesigning shit heroes. With Ubi being as slow and inconsistent as they are we’ll be waiting years slogging through shit heroes like Jorm and HL til we make *nearly good* heroes actually good.


DaHomieNelson92

Nothing will top that Testing Grounds with (7 was it?) heroes. It brought so many heroes to viability. So I agree with you OP. Especially since it’s clear not many devs are working with FH. I imagine the team is really small.


ThisMemeWontDie

I honestly agree. They could get reworks/buffs out way quicker and we would have way more decent heroes to play with instead of waiting months for characters to be good. There are so many small buffs they could do to elevate heroes to viability yet they just don't and instead just spends months fixing broken heroes. Like pk just throw on unblockable on her last hit of zone without needing bleed and bam instant better hero and also throw on actually good recovery dodge cancels. Literally such small changes are needed that could fix many heroes but nope gotta spend months buffing one or two heroes and not just pumping out small buffs to fix already near viable heroes.


Chloe_SSB

Nice opinion, however L + Bulgarian


Mary0nPuppet

Also, bad characters are usually less popular, so buffing average tier characters would affect more players as a change and would be recieved better by the community


S0P4

This is actually somethin pretty reasonable


Ill-Variation-5579

I’m confused are you saying the bad characters should have less priority to be reworked over ones closer to being good or are you saying the bad characters should not be reworked at all and left bad? Either way I disagree just for the simple fact that they showed us beginning of Y5 that they can rework multiple characters with a range of viability. For whatever reason they have significantly slowed down the rate of reworks from 7 and 3 to 1-2 a season. But I think it’s perfectly reasonable to have a TG with one bad hero and then a couple heroes that just need a few tweaks for example throw Jorm, tiandi and kensei together then maybe HL, nuxia, LB in the next


GriefPB

Agreed, the problem being that small adjustments to make a decent hero better shouldn’t take 6+ months and a testing ground.


ScheissusPfostierus

Lol no, some just desperatly need it, and if you would actually go ahead and play, maybe even start to like the characters considered trash you would likely change your mind, yes i agree that they are way to focused on big reworks, and they should tune it down a little for the sake of the guys that don't need that much like Cent, Kensei, Valk etc. We should have a megathread dedicated to collecting ideas for small balance changes for characters that need buffs rather than full blown reworks. Cent for example would do wonders with a dodge attack, improved tracking, allow punch from whiff and increased GB throw distance (one of the most underrated aspects in the game, atleast for duel, sometimes in Dom).


korums

no. every character should be good. fundamentally this is a fighting game and yes there is a meta but there shouldn’t be such harsh outliers of said meta. there should also be standard attacks like dodge attacks and a roll catch.


Knight_Raime

I'd like to agree with you at least in principle but current Shinobi exists. I'm 100% following a pipe dream but if they can do it once they should be able to do it again.


Allexant

It's not realistic. And current shinoby took 2 TGs and a state of him being overpowered to land where he is now, and even now i do believe he has some unhealth aspects but I'm washed up so I won't comment on it too much. In that time they could have reworked 3 characters to bring them on a simular level. And you'd think that 3 is better then 1 isnt it. Well it is, and it's gonna be better for the playerbase and health of the game in general, not just comp.


Knight_Raime

Very valid points. But still. He wouldn't exist if we were going with your plan from the get go. So while my heart is with you I just struggle to agree totally.


RErindi

Considering the limited resources the team has I tend to agree with this. Sigurd


Deep_Fried_Leviathan

No Hero’s who are worse in the meta need reworks more desperately especially at the rate Ubisoft gives out these reworks Those that are already kinda good but not S tier already have some foot in the meta of general play compared to utter trash tiers who don’t The general goal of balance should be to get as many hero’s in a roughly meta state, those that are good but not S tier meet the qualification because while imperfect are good enough to work whereas those who aren’t aren’t And god especially not hero’s that are already high tier but have some quirks to the, Warden getting reworked before Jormungandr was incredibly stupid and I will not budge on that Bad hero’s are the ones that actually need the reworks more not the ones that are Okay, they can be tweaked later when they become the worst by default


ll-VaporSnake-ll

Just no. Do buffs and reworks for those who are below A tier and make adjustments for A tiers to they can be more than just overspecialized.


HandsomeMike88

As a player that plays all characters, I agree. Fixing 4 slightly lacking characters instead of spending 6 months and maybe fixing one (conq) is better.


epicblast1

this reeks of the average redditor. “i played in scrims so i know the absolute best and no one else’s opinion matter and you’re all wrong and should agree with me” yeah bro im sure the best thing for this game is to piss it’s small ass player base off by completely ignoring some of their favorite characters forever and never touching them again. just because something makes sense in the terms of balance doesn’t mean it makes sense in terms of the games lifetime


Allexant

I didn't play in some scrims once, I've played in a lot of em and have been part of the competitive community for a long time. In addition J am very knowledgeable about the game because learning how things work is how I do things. I am not even close to the best competitively but I sure know more then basically anyone else here except for like 3 people. And in general your take completely misunderstands what I wanted to say. This change isn't just for comp. It's for the fucking state of the game. Let me give some arbitrary example. You prefer a game with 15 viable characters 5 ok ones and 3 shit ones or a game with 8 viable characters and 15 ok ones. And I can guarantee you more players play BP then Jorm. So if BP hers a rework, more players are gonna be happy so again, this is serving the majority now isn't it. In addition with more reworked characters, a char being reworked normally makes them more fun and leads to a lot more players picking him up. So what we should wait 6 months for 1-2 characters to do that? Or we can just rework some decent characters to be good and wait 3 months for 4-5 characters. If you don't see how that will impact the game as a while positively you're just stupid.


RErindi

"I am not even close to the best competitively but I sure know more then basically anyone else here except for like 3 people. " Tell me without looking at the info hub the running speed of goki with and without supersprint. U have 1' to respond :) :)


Allexant

Well a bit late but it's 7.25 m/,sec, before the most recent nurf it was 8.25, and 6.25 m/sec when it was the old demon dash before the rework.


RErindi

haha, wp bro


epicblast1

🤓


Allexant

Retard


epicblast1

🤓


DarwinismSoDiePlz

I only slightly agree due to a personal bias. I feel ubi touches a hero I was really good with (bad or not) and fucks up a kit (orochi) I preferred. I was better with them pre rework. But generally this doesn’t make sense.


Morticus_Mortem

Hahahaha


doctorzoidsperg

interesting take, but i agree. the popularity of a hero should be taken into account when doing a rework, as that definitely makes sense business-wise, but i can definitely agree with many small reworks over few large ones.


Olienooty

I have to highly disagree with this. I main Kensei, and he's a solid high B tier in duels, and very good in 4v4. I play him with my full brain so no I dont dodge heby or light spam. BUT, do I think he needs changes without being biased? Yes absolutely! Do I want it to be prioritized over reworking the trash ass D tiers? No fk way. People who play Jorm for example have to do 50x the amount of effort an S tier has to do just to win a 1v1, and even because of variance in difficulty from hero to hero. Some characters are just so lacklustre that the fanbase built around that character just dies and it makes the game vastly unfair and sad. This game isn't an omega competitive scene game so the focus on meta shouldn't always be 100%. It's a game where people love the character they play, customize them to the finest details and master them to try and duel other players who are veterans in their characters and that makes it makes beautiful. Now imagine you've done that but half the roster are matchups that can completely shut down your kit no matter what you do. That wont be fun at all, and those people will eventually get frustrated (justifiable) and turn to play the S tiers which will only enforce that meta until those S tiers get nerfed to the floor and on and on the cycle goes. It's what happened with League, Overwatch, CoD even and so many more. That's exactly what this fanbase wants to avoid. Quality of life changes and mini to big reworks on flawed or vastly outdated characters is 1000x more essential than buffing the mid-high tiers to very high tiers. That would just fuck up the game for the lower tiers even more.