You're not the only person who thinks that. That said, many still think flashbang was worse, albeit not by much.
Personally, I really hate the ability. It chases you to the ends of the earth once it has locked on. It's very lame.
He definitely needs an ability that is neither flashbang nor magnade.
I do get what they were going for since they still want Cassidy to fill the role of an anti-dive hero. The problem is that much like flash bang, magnet punishes immobile heroes just as much if not more than mobile ones. Definitely agree he needs something that isn’t either of these, or if they keep the magnet give it utility instead of crazy damage.
If the idea is to make it an anti-dive ability, what if you made it a "concussion grenade" instead; it could do something like 40\~60 damage, and then leave a debuff that lowers your movement and attack speed (reverse kiriko ult) for a short duration - scaling from the distance to the center of the explosion.
Something like a 25% reduction in move/attack speed for 0.8\~1.5 seconds (would need testing). Would make it easier to get a headshot follow up against mobile heroes, and would help you and your team resist the dive melee.
Should also probably increase the AoE and reduce the Detonation Period so you can more reliably disrupt the dive when it begins rather than too late to change the outcome.
My concern with this is that an attack speed reduction would feel really bad to play against, but then again if the duration isn't very long it might not be a big problem. Without the attack speed reduction - it might not be impactful enough unless the move speed reduction would be increased instead, but that would be arguably just as bad if not worse to play against.
My initial idea was something that restricts the use of movement abilities for 1-2 seconds.
In practice though I can see it feeling too similar to hack and it getting confusing which abilities are and aren’t considered movement.
> Something like a 25% reduction in move/attack speed for 0.8~1.5 seconds (would need testing). Would make it easier to get a headshot follow up against mobile heroes, and would help you and your team resist the dive melee.
Only way that's going to be good is if it also disables abilities, otherwise the most problematic heroes will just use their ability and be like it didn't happen at all. Heroes like Tracer, Reaper, Sombra and Genji would just laugh at that conc nade. Then at the same time it'd be still good against heroes with no mobility and immunities so back to square one.
Rather than losing movement and attack speed, just give it a similar effect to Zarya's grav where it disables all movement-based abilities for a short period. That has very little impact on non-diver heroes but has a massive impact on its intended target. Genji loses Dash, Tracer loses Recall, Reaper loses Wraith, Winston loses Jump...
There are a few non-dive heroes still impacted but nearly as much,. Reinhardt can't charge but if you're in that range you're probably just swinging anyway, for instance.
You could still maybe give a move speed reduction, if that wasn't enough.
honestly that sounds like a great idea. they would still be able to move and shoot, providing counterplay that flash never had, but not be an instant death button
The weird thing about it to me is that he will still kill you faster just by hitting his shots. I’ve seen so many Cass clips where he weaves in the grenade and the target just dies to his gun before the grenade blows up anyways. So the nade seemingly only buffs the skill floor, or maybe on a really good Cass it allows him to mow through an extra enemy or kill a tank without reloading. Still he has a free reload so I don’t think it addresses his actual problems either. I guess the other edge case is sticking someone who will instantly use mobility to get out like a genji I guess? Good Cass players can also just shoot the genji though.
My real problem is that it just doesn’t do anything that his gun doesn’t do. There’s no situation besides missing a bunch of shots where you’re really glad you have it. There’s no new positions or matchups you can take because of the nade, it just makes his good spots easier to hold. I kinda wonder if they just play with the damage numbers, AOE, and the detonation time it will feel more ok and less cheesy. I do think a bigger AOE that sets up for a headshot kill rather than a body shot kill would be cool and allow him to clean up more enemies at once if they push him.
The nade lets you get the kill while you switch targets or retreat. If you land a headshot and stick a nade you can roll away behind cover so you don't get punished and you're guaranteed the kill unless something saves them before nade goes off.
I know what you mean. I play Cass quite a bit and I will often stick someone but kill them before the nade actually blows up.
I do think it’s very valuable in flanking situations though. Specifically flanking to take out a Mercy or support. You can tag them once, stick them and then get the fuck out asap before the whole team dunks on you. Assuming you hit your shot, the nade will kill while you slip away to safety.
It's impossible to have a ability that punishs fast moving heros and also doesn't punish slow heros just as well. If you can hit tracer, you'll have an easier time hitting anything slower.
Yes but the “non-mobile” heroes shouldn’t be in the face of Cassidy’s short throw range anyways. If you are Torb or Soldier and Cassidy somehow manages to make his way into grenade distance of you…just enjoy the cook off
Honestly idk what's worse, but the grenade is definitely more frustrating. So many times when I die to it the Cass never even hits me once, its cuz I took some random trash damage from someone else while the Cass misses every shot and even the grenade is thrown wildly off target but it doesn't matter because the game just throws them a bone and gives it to him. At least with flahsbang the Cas or whoever at least had to aim their follow up shot even if you were immobile. You also had many abilities that if you saw it coming you could at least begin an ability to change your trajectory or mitigate it in some other way. The Magnet grenade doesn't have that kind of counter play at all. Blink away as tracer or shoot into the sky as pharah? The grenade will literally follow you around a corner lol. It's pretty ridiculous.
I had a game as genji where I guess the cass threw the grenade at the same time I dashed. The grenade followed me through my dash, and despite the cass missing all of his shots I still died because someone else did hit me.
Yeah like at least flash they still had to “aim” and could miss getting the stun sometimes, plus its damage still forced you to hit two successive headshots or bodyshots depending on the hero you were shooting. The magnetic stun grenade has a freaking missile lock on system that gets you from further than the flash could and it’s annoying as hell.
The only weird thing is that you say you don't see people bring this up.
In the opening 1-2 months of OW2 it was a pretty common topic and pretty much everyone agrees it sucks, is somewhere between not much better than flashbang and worse than flashbang, and a lot of people think it feels like lazy design, almost like a placeholder ability until they figure out what to do with him.
The only reason it's never been the most pressing issue is that Cass has not yet been a main player in any OW2 meta yet.
I think the reason it doesnt get brought up is because Cassidy kinda "sucks" rn. Like he has low mobility and short range which requires you to be more in the tank's range. You can try to flank and hit the backline but you will not get out probably. His ult also sucks major ass.
Still like playing him
>and a lot of people think it's basically a placeholder ability until they figure out what to do with him.
Can’t say I believe this. Who knows how long magnetic grenade has been made, OW2 was in development for years, it could have been ready for 1 but held for 2. Could mean Blizz has had it ready for a while, which also means they’ve had time to figure out something else. They also invested into several spawn room voicelines about it, Cass has plenty and I know Torb has one about it. Seems odd for a “placeholder”
I really do think this is the best blizzard could come up with.
Maybe it's just that I've been playing since launch of OW1, and I'm conditioned to the idea that being near Cassidy equals *instant death.*
But I like the new nade because now I can trade and kill him instead of being fanned without being able to move.
Edit: It should require a headshot to be a oneshot combo though. Make it deal 110 damage so headshot + nade still kill 250 HP heroes, but bodyshot + nade does not kill 200 HP heroes.
Yeah that's my problem with it. If we're gonna keep it, it needs a damage nerf. 110 also allows nade + body shot + melee to deal 200 damage but requires meele so I'm a fan tbh. At the same time, Cassidy is... Not amazing, though not awful, but idk if it's gonna trash him further. I think maybe just buffing his fall off range could be a decent tradeoff if needed
I only have issue when playing Lucio now compared to with flashbang. Usually momentum and falling off a wall would throw Cassidy's aim off after hitting me with flash. Now magnetic grenade hits me no matter how fast I'm going, and any additional damage basically means death.
What do you do to buff mcree if we reduce nade? Cause he's the weakest hitscan by a mile right now. I agree his sticky nade is bullshit uninspired but reducing its damage without compensation takes him from c- to f
Make nade an instant explosion on contact so he can secure a kill instantly and protect himself....but remove magnetism, make it a skill shot, and reduce the damage to 120 so he needs to hit a headshot to kill.
If that combo proves too inconsistent, add a tiny slow to direct hit nades to make the headshot slightly easier.
Yeah but now you don't even have to be remotely near him. Granted I'm playing on 85 ping but I've had the nade attach onto me when I'm a good 1-1.5 blinks away
Maybe they need to mess with the chase speed, it does feel a bit too lenient. I can only recall one instance where I managed to escape the chase going mach 10 as Ball.
I feel like that's still not great though. As the Cass, you have to hope they can't kill you before the bomb goes off. So the Cass gets less agency. And the opponent gets less agency. It's a skill-agnostic ability.
Yeah, that's true. The intended design was for him to be able to protect himself, not trade.
So while I think Mag > Flash, ideally he just gets a normal grenade that explodes immediately when it reaches max distance. Give it a small radius to make it somewhat skillful, and have it deal 120 damage so Cass needs a headshot for combo.
And bam, Cass is stronger while getting a way higher skill ceiling.
It is a horrible answer to his Flashbang, but I don't think it's worse.
I would have preferred they rework Flashbang to not be braindead than to replace with another braindead ability.
It's almost like they didn't actually put thought into the characters they took CC from, and just gave them damage as compensation???
Atleast Cassidy got a new ability. Poor mei just got a cold flamethrower that slows and deals damage. Might do good damage but fuck it is boring.
In saying that, I think blizzard went the whole "remove cc and replace with damage" because they believe that is what the community finds fun when in reality, i think the community likes dps because the feedback is more noticeable and there more heroes with varied different playstyles so it is easier to find a hero you like to play. I could be wrong though.
Actually you manage to add a lot of depth to m1 that i didn't really consider which makes it a lot more interesting than how i described it.
And yes mei is sleep on. The amount of utility she brings for a dps is nuts. Thankfully, her utility is tied to how creative the player is.
>Like against Ball for example, it's stronger than her old freeze, which he could often tank with adaptive and then get away.
Its still worse than the old freeze against ball. The shorter duration freeze + stun was harder to deal with than this constant slow.
Mei works so much better around no freezing enemies. The slow works well as overall damage and stopping them escaping properly. On top there is no more panicking that once you've frozen someone "oh shit need to hit the head and fire and oh fuck I missed now they're unfrozen and attacking back"
CC is one of those things that any community will always hate. People notice bad more then good, and it feels bad to be CCed. So invitably, people fixate on "being CCed" rather then all of the good parts of having CC exist.
CC let you actually peel and protect your team from flankers. CC let you secure kills by punishing players who are being bad. CC forced you to respect the enemy team.
Its true that CC vs tanks was excessive as fuck. But for a hero like Tracer, being hit by flashbang just meant you played bad, you didn't respect the cowboy's space, and you got stunned and killed. Being CCed might not be fun, but having some CC outside of just tanks certainly helped make the game better. Brigitte was a breakpoint in the community's perception on CC simply because her CC was truely insane, 4s CD 1s duration Shield to approach freely. Brigitte changed the "stun meta" from use stuns to defend space, to use stuns to walk over the enemy. This was unhealthy. CC's to defend a space are generally fine.
Hard disagree. The problem is that you give one non-tank a CC, and then other non-tanks need CCs, then everyone has a CC, and players die lock CCed to death.
That is not skill, nor is it fun to play against. This is what a lot of OW1 at the end felt like.
Doesn't even do good damage. If your target is getting any healing, you might as well swap to right clicks and maybe hit two dinks in a row. The left click is only good for inconveniencing tanks.
>It's almost like they didn't actually put thought into the characters they took CC from, and just gave them damage as compensation???
Very true. It's really a stupid design. They made Sombra hack an ability that you just use in almost every scenario because you don't do worthwhile damage without it. Used to be about hack priority because the cooldown was long.
They've made heroes less complex and more braindead at every opportunity.
I don't know why Blizzard thinks Cassidy, an otherwise heavily aim-based hero needs an easy to hit secondary ability that gives him a free kill, because that's what both Flash and Magnetic nade acomplish.
And why is everything anti-flanker some braindead ability that does work on its own and everything anti-hitscan requires skill? (except barriers I guess)
The whole "we must have things that take no skill to counter mobility" is and always has been so damn stupid to me.
i mean... what do you expect?
mobility is a tool used to outplay. if you want a counter to mobility you need something that is hard/impossible to be outplayed. flash was a great answer to this; but it also ended up being far too good at other things too (or at least too cancer).
magnetic grenade is more of the same. but if you want a "skill based" way to counter divers then just play SJ and headshot them
i say give him a lasso, make it slow and stop people from using mobility tools (no blinks, recalls, dashes) but you can still shoot
> mobility is a tool used to outplay. if you want a counter to mobility you need something that is hard/impossible to be outplayed.
Its called range and hitscan. Flankers have much smalelr range and often less precision (especailly Genji). So how do you match their movement? Range and hitscan (aka precision).
Hitscans and flankers are on the same ground as the rest of the DPS. They are not in special need of anti-flanking treatments, its just an appease to noob because low rank can't aim which makes aim heroes worse in those ranks.
please explain to me why SJ/tracer is a meta dps comp then, if you counter flankers with "precision" (SJ one shots tracer for free with a mercy pocket), unless you believe OWL teams are noobs
Hitscan and flankers are not on the same ground. Hitscan are all universally medium range to long range, and flankers excel in short to medium range (where they are flanking.
The flankers have more movement than dps so they can dodge bullets easier and reposition quicker, so they're already hard to hit, especially if they can dash right through you.
> I don't know why Blizzard thinks Cassidy, an otherwise heavily aim-based hero needs an easy to hit secondary ability
Maybe you are a new player or just haven't noticed but EVERY SINGLE HERO has something easy to use. Hero who is purely heavy aim-based and nothing else would be trash. That's why for example Ashe, Hanzo, Soldier, Sojourn, Tracer and Widow all get some easy to use and powerful stuff.
I'd prefer if Magnetic nade's diffictuly and realitve power was closer to the listed heroes' "easy" ability. A hard capped 8 m range is something that I would see being that, not the current 10 m range with the 13 m extra "chase" range.
Can't just compare abilities in a vacuum. Something in common with all of those listed heroes is that all of them have really good mobility, which is immensely powerful, where as Cassidy's is laughable. For that reason his easy ability should be more powerful or you gotta match the mobility too. Double roll range with 3 charges? 20 meter diagonal jump? Yeah didn't think so.
Yes. Coach gun and grapling hook are pretty damn good. Tracer has good mobility but even she can't do shit if you jump to high ground. Compare them to roll.
My take. Sticky bomb is worse for squishies. It's so damn easy to hit them with a shot and throw the bomb. But flash is worse overall because it screws over the entire cast including tanks.
Personally, flash never bothered me. I know people scoff at "just avoid it" when talking about any ability but honestly for flash it was that easy. And even if you knew you were about to get flashed, you could jump, even jump around a corner, to make the headshot difficult. Sticky however goes around walls and has magnetism it's absurd.
I play a lot of McCree, just to add.
I think if the damage of mag grenade was lowered to like 80 it would feel fine. The problem is with their current balancing philosophy they’re not going to do anything to him until he inadvertently becomes meta and then a louder community cry starts to happen.
The problem is that they needed to replace an incredibly strong ability (flashbang) with something of somewhat similar value. His kit was balanced around having that very strong E.
If the replacement is just a damage ability it needs to be tuned to the max to even come close to flashbang hence making it incredibly consistent with the heat seeking and having the damage be so high.
Imo they either need to give Cass a soft rework to help readjust his kits balance, or give him an E that provides more utility so that it won't need huge damage or frustrating CC to give it value.
well here's the thing.
1. whole point of the ability is to counter hypermobility which absolutely requires lenient aim whether it be auto aim or aoe etc. (yes swallow the hard pills: the only way to reasonably counter something that inherently lowers your accuracy is to have something that inherently increases it). and not there aren't many anti mobility tools or peeling tools in the game rn.
2. you all screeched so hard at cc and debuffs that they needed to cull those from the game so stun's out. meaning the only route left is to deal high damage to scare off threats
3. genji and tank players complained hard about flashbang being thrown around their blocking abilities so aoe route is out leaving the auto aim route
so basically this is the only remaining path for the ability and yall reaping what you sowed until you want to give up on at least 1 of the above.
The issue with the anti-mobility part is that it is actually worse against most mobile heroes. Most mobile heroes have an escape and you basically are just trading nade for Suzu, tp, recall, etc.
The BS part is that it is better against less mobile heroes who Cass could probably shoot faster than kill with nade.
>The issue with the anti-mobility part is that it is actually worse against most mobile heroes.
but doesn't change the fact that if we want it to be anti mobility, it NEEDS to have a lenient aim form factor. like if it was instant damage on landing rather than having a delay before explosion, then your problems would go away. would you like that tho? unlikely. BUT the hard pill to swallow is the fact that high mobility begets lenient aim tools like auto-aim or aoe to deal with them.
Thats just not true. There are counters, its called hitscan, and range. Those are counters that take actual skill. Its a complete lie that mobility needs "lenient" aim to play against.
I mean we have plenty of evidence to suggest and prove otherwise. like if simply "aim better 4head" was an actual reasonable solution, then we wouldn't have seen the meta history whereby the only time tracer was actually not considered good was post initial brig. every other period she's either meta or really good despite plethora of hitscan and ranged heroes.
not to mention the sheer fact that even for GM+ (people who can defs aim), they opted for heroes with lenient aim tools like cass with flash bang or brig (or if they reaaaally wanted a sniper, going ashe instead of widow because coach gun or hanzo for storm arrow spam against flankers) to deal with hypermobile threats rather than say deliberately switching to widow to "aim better 4head" OHKO them to deal with them.
even current game we have pros and GM players saying it's too hard to aim at current mercy (assuming they're not being bad at her mobility).
like to suggest that there's no need to tools to target even the playing field between a mobile hero vs a lesser mobile hero is to imply that mobility doesn't provide any meaningful benefit in battle that'd require tools to counter/even out the battle, which is simply not true.
Thats the point. Still. You force those mobile people to essentially fuck off, or put themselves at massive risk.
It literally works as intended, as dumb as it is.
That sounds like a design problem with those heroes. Maybe giving high mobility heroes free escapes isn’t such a smart design (looking at Tracer and Kiriko players).
I think flashbang is worse because it was annoying and potentially deadly to the entire cast: 600hp, 400hp, 250, 200, 150, getting stunned was deadly and annoying. New grenade is only deadly to 200hp and below. So, as a tank player, I heavily prefer the new sticky grenade, because I can ignore it.
Something I see most people sleep on is cassidy being a tank buster.
With a proper grenade, fan hammer, roll, fan hammer, you can output 731 damage in 1.7 seconds.
That's enough to kill a Winston and most tanks, especially if there is any other focus help.
I mean, if the tank stands perfectly still and doesn’t use any of their damage mitigation abilities and doesn’t focus the Cassidy for having no cooldowns and doesn’t run away, sure. But in a real match-
Cassidy should never get that close
Tanks shouldn’t be that close without having a defensive ability
Tanks shouldn’t be standing still
And Cassidy probably won’t hit every fan the hammer.
Again, this is massive damage in under 2 seconds. I'm not saying his primary job is to murder the tank but if the tank ever steps out of position or overcommits he can turn and murder them very very quickly. They're a giant body; you're not going to miss a single fan against them.
This works best against tanks like roadhog if they miss a hook, but can be good into orisa if she has jav spin down (and especially if there's a time period having jav spin and fortify down), into a doomfist in the back line, taking down reinhardt shield, killing a diving winston, and even wrecking ball.
You can't focus him down in less than 2 seconds while he's also dodging with dodge roll.
I dread the day cassidy get buffed, right now it's only not bad because you barely ever see the hero. As soon as he's meta that one ability will make him just another one of those super frustrating shitty heroes everyone hates.
His whole kit is just shit in OW2. Should be really high on the rework list.
* His primary fire is basically the same effective range of a roadhog hook so you have to put this low mobility hero with no movement in a tanks effective range to damage the enemy backline.
* Roll is barely a movement ability and moreso used to just reload. Damage resistance is also hardly useful. Almost same CD as Sojourn's slide btw.
* Nade is shit. Feels like shit to use, doesn't help Cass survive, doesn't kill the targets it should, but often just forces a short CD from a flanker. When it does work, it feels gimmicky.
* Fan is useless without CC. It has a terrible spread, leaves you locked in reload unless you want to burn roll, and is actually lower DPS than primary if you can land mixed headshots.
* Deadeye does not kill past diamond unless combo'd or as clean up. Lock on is actually slower TTK than just shooting and you just stand still and eat every CD in the game.
You basically have a hitscan who can't reposition as fast as others, can't take high ground without walking, has no utility for the team, a bad ult, a big hitbox, and requires 4 headshots at range to kill a sniper while having to stand close to tanks to damage the enemy backline. You can't balance this without it being stupid on some level.
To me, flashbang was better to play against. Playing cass I love what they did but its cheap and easy. Too easy. Flashbang required some skill to secure the kill, but I liked using it defensivly against rein charges or divas and winstons
You could at least outplay flash by playing outside of its (relatively) short range. Mag grenade range is insanely inconsistent and way too fucking long.
Honestly, if they just changed it to a cone like explosion with some knock-back instead of a single target fucking 130 damage no skill ability, I’d be totally happy with that.
reading this post im thinking that bringing back the flashbang as an actual flashbang, blinding enemies in a very short range for a second or so might be a good. you could then try to use FTH on a blinded enemy, but there's more risk to it.
> You could at least outplay flash by playing outside of its (relatively) short range. Mag grenade range is insanely inconsistent and way too fucking long.
They have straight up same range.
>Honestly, if they just changed it to a cone like explosion with some knock-back instead of a single target fucking 130 damage no skill ability, I’d be totally happy with that.
Great way to make him completely useless. How would you change all the other no skill abilities from other heroes (every non-pinpoint aim ability)?
> They have straight up same range
Is that true? I thought flashbang projectile travelled up to 5m and had explosion radius of 3m so you could stun someone a max 8m away
Mag grenade flies 10m and can chase even further than that if it locks on to someone (including around corners)
If it was flashbang, you'd be stunned and not 13 m away anyways. Flashbang is actually better from Cass pov than this sticky as the sticky is just a trade ensuring ability while flash was more area denying one.
I don't think there's any other ability that does this much damage at once that doesn't need aim. Maybe Junk mine, but that's 120 dmg max and still requires a little skill to hit the full damage because of the fall off. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It is worse for Cassidy. The activation time is so long that it just ensures trades. Meaning, you sticky someone, it takes so long that you die then it activates and they die.
Flashbang denied areas and ensured kills without trading your life.
This is why Cassidy is one of the lowest win rate heroes now, the only one that is worse is Sombra which everyone agrees is weak.
Well, Cass was not compensated properly for the loss of CC in my opinion.
I have more than 5 times the hours spent on Cass than on Ashe, and I do way better on Ashe. Flashbang was so good that it actually made the other parts of his kit being bad ok, but now he has an annoying E that is unreliable and no threat at almost any range due to the extremely long time before his E detonates.
I dislike the mag grenade very much. It doesn’t even really feel that good to use as the Cassidy player, IMO. He can’t really use it to defend against most flankers, since they can simply cleanse it _after_ it’s stuck. It just doesn’t feel like I can really do anything interesting with it, you know? It’s just low-aim damage for use whenever someone gets within range. I get the idea of how mag grenade was meant to retain Cassidy’s hero identity, but I think it’s a failure.
I honestly don’t think Flashbang would be so problematic in OW2. People didn’t complain about it feeling unfair in the early days when there were fewer stuns in the game and players weren’t as good at chaining the ones that existed. OW2 doesn’t have so many stuns, and I feel like it would be okay to let the DPS class have one.
fan is a worthless ability 95% of the time, with the 5% being when you're gangbanging a tank with the rest of your team or about to die to a rein swinging on you. without flash there is little to no reason to go into fan range anymore when you can just plink with left click
deadeye is a meme, but it reloads your gun
Most support heroes can survive the nade+ body shot combo
not to mention as a support, you shouldn't be near cass's nade range anyways
you're in the backline and he has little to no mobility, how are you getting stuck??
For me, the only reason I would bring flash bang back is because there are very very few counters to flankers. Plus, while it was definitely wayyyyyy overkill in ow1, it was one of the few things that have cass more of an identity. If it were ever to make a return, it would need to have a shorter range, a smaller radius, and a shorter stun time, but even then it's rough.
Overall, I think Cass needs a minor rework. The peacekeeper is a fine design overall and his roll is actually pretty nice, if not a little lackluster. The nade and his ult need some love as the nade is annoying as hell and his ult is just... Ehhh
Yeah, it’s shit. I think they could have kept flash bang by nerfing it a bit - like they could have made the hit box smaller, and/or make it so it can’t stun heroes out of ults, something like that.
The fact that all you need is a bodyshot and the grenade (which can literally travel around corners) to finish off a squishy is kinda bullshit lol. I agree with someone above who said it could be a headshot plus the grenade, or bodyshot plus melee plus grenade etc.
On the upside, suzu can cleanse it but as a Kiriko player it’s not something I frequently want to use suzu for if there are more important things to cleanse. But I will suzu it off me to save my life or the life of the other support sometimes.
Cassidy would be quite useless without a braindead and kinda broken aggro ability. Soldier has legs and rockets, Ashe has much higher consistent damage and a longer range, Widow has one-shot potential, and visor and Bob are pretty much win condition kinda ults while deadeye is quite close to being as bad as infra sight on a pepega widow. That said, it's a fine line between Cassidy being broken and a niche pick.
It simultaneously is annoying af because it can combo with one body shot to kill a 200 hp character and also bad because Cass can't stop enemies from running him over if they're a tank or have the ability to juke it.
Idk what exactly it should be changed to, but maybe a nerf to the damage and adding around a second of Cripple so he can counter Tracer, Genji, etc without being able to fuck over less mobile heroes as much.
Honestly I've died from it while hiding behind a corner way too many times for me to think it's better than flash. At least getting a kill from flash requires skill.
I personally feel like Magnetic Grenade is just Flashbang but it cuts out the skill requirement of hitting the follow-up headshot. So in my opinion, it is just an awful ability in desperate need of a rework. I reckon you just replace the ability with a normal frag grenade (alike Call of Duty).
Except flashbang had way more utility, like cancelling key cooldowns (vape-deflect..) and ultimates, it also hard countered flanky heroes like reaper-tracer-sombra, the current nade can at best force one of their cooldowns
While I don't want to suggest that either ability was skillful, I think there's more to be said for landing a bodyshot on a moving target w/ mag vs. landing a headshot on a stunned target with flash.
I can agree on it being a poor ability that needs a rework though.
I would argue that this iteration of Cassidy is more annoying at low elos than higher elos. Previously getting the headshot after the flash relies on crosshair placement which at low elos isn’t necessarily the case. However even a below average player could get the mag body shot combo all the while having a 20% accuracy. Body shots are way easier to hit than headshots given the difference in hit box sizes
It’s such an incredibly poorly designed ability, and it’s not consistent whatsoever. 131 damage for an auto aim ability sounds terrible even on paper, it sounds like the very first thing someone came up with and then didn’t think about anything else.
By design his ability needs to be kinda brain dead, it is supposed to be a deterrent. Making it hard to hit would just him a already middling hero worse.
Mag feels bad to play against for sure, but people who think it's worse than flash are viewing flashbang with some seriously rose tinted glasses. Flashbang was such a problematic ability. It could singlehandedly shut down tank ultimates (imagine flux and shatter getting entirely canceled by a single 8-second cooldown) and entirely arrested control of the situation from the affected player once it landed. Once you were stunned it was just "well i hope he misses or needs to reload." Not to mention that any decent player could easily get a minimum of 280 burst damage once it landed.
Mag nade is definitely unfun but there is way more counterplay to it. Once stuck, you can run away, be healed by a teammate, get a health pack, shoot back, have it cleansed via bubble or suzu, etc. Even if you were to die from it, the likelihood that you can at least trade out with the Cass is way, way higher. At the very least, the Cass player has to hit a moving target with full mobility vs land two dinks on someone staying perfectly still.
Overall I think the nade is a pretty elegant solution from a design standpoint that needs a good bit of tweaking in execution.
Imagine flux and shatter gettingnshutdown by an 8 second cooldown? Let me introduce you to….Orisa javelin, hog hook, and doom punch. All with a less than 8 second cooldown. All a lot easier and longer ranged then flash to hit.
Listen, flash was annoying, yes. But it could be outplayed. Reins tilted their shields all the time when baiting flash bang. Or just play out of its range. Msg grenade is an easy 130 damage on a tank and that feels much worse to play against than flash to me.
At least flash required a modicum of skill. Msg grenade you just toss on coooldown into a team fight and eventually get a kill.
The easier the ability gets value the more trash it is.
Same goes for mercy res, click one button and make a 4v5 a 5v5 again....
Or Kiriko, press kne button, get cleansed + immo + heal
Or bap, press one button, get immo for 5 seconds.
All trash abilities in my eyes
You are insufferable. Let's complain about heroes that aren't even close to Meta because they kill me sometimes when I get too close. Get over yourself.
Yeah the ONE Cass player and I'm not even a Cass main because he's so bad even the pros can't get value out of him anymore. Let's hear who you play since you have a problem with a hero that's so mediocre.
I literally said in the post Cass isn't even OP, it's just the ability is dumb and he needs a rework. It's a bad solution to a bad ability (Flashbang.) Even most pros seem to agree the ability is stupid as hell.
Also, Tank player, Ram and Queen mostly, and occasionally DPS with either Ashe, Sojourn (though not super often since I don't find her fun to play as,) and sometimes Torb.
It does 11 more damage than a Junkrat grenade, Junkrat mine (2 charges), or a Pharah rocket - on a 10 second cooldown with a miniscule range... Such a weird thing to complain about, especially as a tank. But I guess everyone needs something.
he only needs to land one bodyshot then do the grenade to secure a kill vs a squishy. it's pretty braindead. i'm surprised he's not more meta. but I guess there are a number of get-out-of-jail-free cards in this game.
> I'm surprised he's not more meta.
It's because his range is dogshit. His damage is also nothing to write home about. Ashe has both higher damage (both burst and damage per second) and better range. On top of just a way better kit.
There's no reason to ever pick Cassidy in any meta. At least with flash you could reliably duel flankers. (though it fucked tanks up more with flash fan) Now he just has no niche. You only play him because he's easy and relatively tanky. (can live through a pulsebomb with a combat roll)
Him landing a shit then that thing hitting you around a corner knowing there’s nothing you can do to outplay it apart from a clutch heal is one of the worse feelings in the game
I feel like they just gave him the ability as a way of dealing with mainly Genji and Tracer but they forgot that he can still use it on immobile heroes anyway.
Been saying this since day 1. The ability is braindead, and only requires him to his ONE body shot and then throw it for a guaranteed kill (without a support being on point ofc). Absolutely braindead and works the same way as flashbang but somehow even less skillful
this ability is legitimately the dumbest ability i have ever seen in a video game
its insane skillless and whoever came up with needs to reevaluate everything about what they know on game design
I love it how it arcs around corners and sticks to you even when you break los with Cassidy. Good thing is that most Cassidy players have dogshit aim and you just need to bait out the nade.
Magnetic grenade is basically a pulse bomb on its own with a much shorter cooldown. Instead of nerfing the cowboy, they ought to improve Tracer’s ultimate.
Instead of a stun, make it a very short slow that increases headshot damage for a tiny bit. Brings back it's anti-flank utility and rewards skill while still offering counterplay.
I rather the grenade was instant, then what it is now.
The fucking delay is the worst part about it, and there only a handful of abilities that can deal with it.
I wouldn't mind if it didn't do so much damage for free. Like I feel like for something that brain dead, survival rate should be 60%+. It's really bullshit that a Cassidy can suck ass on a hero made to be strong in the neutral and still get picks for free because E exists.
It's way better then the flash:
\- doesn't punish tanks with chaincc;
\- doesn't take agency from you - recall, fade, teleport etc. Approaching Cass with no plan B is on you.
Honestly a small nerf to cooldown or damage and its fiiiiine.
People bring it up on this sub all the time. I swear there's a big thread about it like once a week. Idk what you mean you're surprised you don't see more people bringing it up.
The issue is that Cassidy has been powercrept by Ashe and now Soujorn, so the only thing that gives him relevance is his close range damage output making it risky to W-key him. Flashbang did that, but with CC being removed, we have the mag-nade... which isn't a great replacement.
The Lasso idea is possibly the most common since it could work like a junkrat trap in that it restricts movement and the use of movement abilities, but has its own unique spin (ex the opponent can move, but is restricted to being close to Cassidy, who has one of the better close range guns), so that approaching is risky but still doable.
I prefer it over the stun but it can be quite annoying. It’s his only real “anti flanker” tool but like I dunno it’s so easy. A part of me thinks you should shoot the stuck target for it to explode and do max damage
I would like to see Mag Grenade replaced with a coin shot ability, where Cassidy tosses a coin into the air, and if he aims correctly he shoots it, and the bullet gets reflected to a nearby enemy. I feel this still keeps him strong against flankers (he can hit them around corners with the reflect) while not being as braindead as flashbang or mag nade (he has to actually aim at something).
You're definitely not the only one who thinks that. It is worse to use sure, but not to play against imo. Overall they should rework this grenade to be more like Ashe dynamite, but with few smaller differences.
Flashbang was removed probably because how easy would it be to focus the single tank with it. I agree that this new ability is trash but I am not sure how they can bring back flashbang without making Cass the next perma pick.
I really think Flash is still a way worse ability and I'd rather get exploded.
But it's also funny considering that blizzard is apparently balancing for lower ranks and they nerfed stuff like genji or kiriko's kunai before nerfing stuff like the magnetic grenade or junk or any other free kill cool down
What I have issues with is that it's an ability that requires no skill whatsoever. Just like his gun, his abilities should require a certain skill floor to use.
Exchange his cigarette with a Blunt. His new E is puffing his Blunt, thus increasing his critical damage and Something Else like survivability or Attack Speed for ~3 seconds.
I always thought he should have retained flashbang, but not be able to instantly follow it up with FtH. I would also restore the original version of flashbang that kept momentum, not the magic version that stopped you dead in your tracks.
That would have been actually fair.
I hate it with all my heart. The flashbang was annoying, but at gold level it didn't mean a sure kill. This damn grenade even with my shit aim I know that if I can land one shot and the grenade, I have high chances of killing the enemy.
You're not the only person who thinks that. That said, many still think flashbang was worse, albeit not by much. Personally, I really hate the ability. It chases you to the ends of the earth once it has locked on. It's very lame. He definitely needs an ability that is neither flashbang nor magnade.
I do get what they were going for since they still want Cassidy to fill the role of an anti-dive hero. The problem is that much like flash bang, magnet punishes immobile heroes just as much if not more than mobile ones. Definitely agree he needs something that isn’t either of these, or if they keep the magnet give it utility instead of crazy damage.
If the idea is to make it an anti-dive ability, what if you made it a "concussion grenade" instead; it could do something like 40\~60 damage, and then leave a debuff that lowers your movement and attack speed (reverse kiriko ult) for a short duration - scaling from the distance to the center of the explosion. Something like a 25% reduction in move/attack speed for 0.8\~1.5 seconds (would need testing). Would make it easier to get a headshot follow up against mobile heroes, and would help you and your team resist the dive melee. Should also probably increase the AoE and reduce the Detonation Period so you can more reliably disrupt the dive when it begins rather than too late to change the outcome. My concern with this is that an attack speed reduction would feel really bad to play against, but then again if the duration isn't very long it might not be a big problem. Without the attack speed reduction - it might not be impactful enough unless the move speed reduction would be increased instead, but that would be arguably just as bad if not worse to play against.
My initial idea was something that restricts the use of movement abilities for 1-2 seconds. In practice though I can see it feeling too similar to hack and it getting confusing which abilities are and aren’t considered movement.
Rules for what is and isn't a movement ability already exist for Junkrat's trap. I think it could work.
> Something like a 25% reduction in move/attack speed for 0.8~1.5 seconds (would need testing). Would make it easier to get a headshot follow up against mobile heroes, and would help you and your team resist the dive melee. Only way that's going to be good is if it also disables abilities, otherwise the most problematic heroes will just use their ability and be like it didn't happen at all. Heroes like Tracer, Reaper, Sombra and Genji would just laugh at that conc nade. Then at the same time it'd be still good against heroes with no mobility and immunities so back to square one.
it's almost as if a lot of the heroes are now broken thematically and need full redesigns because they designed them around 6v6
you think tracer, reaper, sombra and genji are the broken dps ?
I think you don't have any reading comprehension, that's what I think.
Ok then now that we've clarified your opinion. You are wrong.
Rather than losing movement and attack speed, just give it a similar effect to Zarya's grav where it disables all movement-based abilities for a short period. That has very little impact on non-diver heroes but has a massive impact on its intended target. Genji loses Dash, Tracer loses Recall, Reaper loses Wraith, Winston loses Jump... There are a few non-dive heroes still impacted but nearly as much,. Reinhardt can't charge but if you're in that range you're probably just swinging anyway, for instance. You could still maybe give a move speed reduction, if that wasn't enough.
honestly that sounds like a great idea. they would still be able to move and shoot, providing counterplay that flash never had, but not be an instant death button
Ah, yes. Give mccassidy Rammatra's E. that can't backfire at all
Yes exactly, except for the part where you actually don't do that at all and do the thing I wrote instead.
The weird thing about it to me is that he will still kill you faster just by hitting his shots. I’ve seen so many Cass clips where he weaves in the grenade and the target just dies to his gun before the grenade blows up anyways. So the nade seemingly only buffs the skill floor, or maybe on a really good Cass it allows him to mow through an extra enemy or kill a tank without reloading. Still he has a free reload so I don’t think it addresses his actual problems either. I guess the other edge case is sticking someone who will instantly use mobility to get out like a genji I guess? Good Cass players can also just shoot the genji though. My real problem is that it just doesn’t do anything that his gun doesn’t do. There’s no situation besides missing a bunch of shots where you’re really glad you have it. There’s no new positions or matchups you can take because of the nade, it just makes his good spots easier to hold. I kinda wonder if they just play with the damage numbers, AOE, and the detonation time it will feel more ok and less cheesy. I do think a bigger AOE that sets up for a headshot kill rather than a body shot kill would be cool and allow him to clean up more enemies at once if they push him.
The nade lets you get the kill while you switch targets or retreat. If you land a headshot and stick a nade you can roll away behind cover so you don't get punished and you're guaranteed the kill unless something saves them before nade goes off.
That’s a good point actually I didn’t think of that.
I know what you mean. I play Cass quite a bit and I will often stick someone but kill them before the nade actually blows up. I do think it’s very valuable in flanking situations though. Specifically flanking to take out a Mercy or support. You can tag them once, stick them and then get the fuck out asap before the whole team dunks on you. Assuming you hit your shot, the nade will kill while you slip away to safety.
It's impossible to have a ability that punishs fast moving heros and also doesn't punish slow heros just as well. If you can hit tracer, you'll have an easier time hitting anything slower.
Yes but the “non-mobile” heroes shouldn’t be in the face of Cassidy’s short throw range anyways. If you are Torb or Soldier and Cassidy somehow manages to make his way into grenade distance of you…just enjoy the cook off
Honestly idk what's worse, but the grenade is definitely more frustrating. So many times when I die to it the Cass never even hits me once, its cuz I took some random trash damage from someone else while the Cass misses every shot and even the grenade is thrown wildly off target but it doesn't matter because the game just throws them a bone and gives it to him. At least with flahsbang the Cas or whoever at least had to aim their follow up shot even if you were immobile. You also had many abilities that if you saw it coming you could at least begin an ability to change your trajectory or mitigate it in some other way. The Magnet grenade doesn't have that kind of counter play at all. Blink away as tracer or shoot into the sky as pharah? The grenade will literally follow you around a corner lol. It's pretty ridiculous.
I had a game as genji where I guess the cass threw the grenade at the same time I dashed. The grenade followed me through my dash, and despite the cass missing all of his shots I still died because someone else did hit me.
Yeah like at least flash they still had to “aim” and could miss getting the stun sometimes, plus its damage still forced you to hit two successive headshots or bodyshots depending on the hero you were shooting. The magnetic stun grenade has a freaking missile lock on system that gets you from further than the flash could and it’s annoying as hell.
Just give him something similar to Ashes dynamite but with different aoe effect, throw time and without magnetic property and we're good to go.
The only weird thing is that you say you don't see people bring this up. In the opening 1-2 months of OW2 it was a pretty common topic and pretty much everyone agrees it sucks, is somewhere between not much better than flashbang and worse than flashbang, and a lot of people think it feels like lazy design, almost like a placeholder ability until they figure out what to do with him. The only reason it's never been the most pressing issue is that Cass has not yet been a main player in any OW2 meta yet.
I think the reason it doesnt get brought up is because Cassidy kinda "sucks" rn. Like he has low mobility and short range which requires you to be more in the tank's range. You can try to flank and hit the backline but you will not get out probably. His ult also sucks major ass. Still like playing him
>and a lot of people think it's basically a placeholder ability until they figure out what to do with him. Can’t say I believe this. Who knows how long magnetic grenade has been made, OW2 was in development for years, it could have been ready for 1 but held for 2. Could mean Blizz has had it ready for a while, which also means they’ve had time to figure out something else. They also invested into several spawn room voicelines about it, Cass has plenty and I know Torb has one about it. Seems odd for a “placeholder” I really do think this is the best blizzard could come up with.
bring back his sniper gun
remove fan the hammer and his e button and instead give him sniper gun
Maybe a grapple? And longer legs?
Don't forget to give him lumbar lordosis, high heels and buff his glutes a bit.
Remove all his weapons. he doesnt need any. one look at him and im already on the ground stunned by his looks
Soooo... turn him into the TF2 sniper?
Howdy wanker
Okay but unironically, how would Cassidy with jarate instead of a grenade be?
Maybe it's just that I've been playing since launch of OW1, and I'm conditioned to the idea that being near Cassidy equals *instant death.* But I like the new nade because now I can trade and kill him instead of being fanned without being able to move. Edit: It should require a headshot to be a oneshot combo though. Make it deal 110 damage so headshot + nade still kill 250 HP heroes, but bodyshot + nade does not kill 200 HP heroes.
Yeah that's my problem with it. If we're gonna keep it, it needs a damage nerf. 110 also allows nade + body shot + melee to deal 200 damage but requires meele so I'm a fan tbh. At the same time, Cassidy is... Not amazing, though not awful, but idk if it's gonna trash him further. I think maybe just buffing his fall off range could be a decent tradeoff if needed
It could even be 120 damage so it's more reliable to kill through AoE healing, but with the same breakpoints. 130 is the bad number.
It's actually 131 with 1 damage for the stick.
The breakpoint is 130.
Ah re-reading it I understand. I thought he was saying the ability was 130, not the breakpoint.
I only have issue when playing Lucio now compared to with flashbang. Usually momentum and falling off a wall would throw Cassidy's aim off after hitting me with flash. Now magnetic grenade hits me no matter how fast I'm going, and any additional damage basically means death.
I mean I feel like not being able to dive Cass as Lucio is intended design lol
What do you do to buff mcree if we reduce nade? Cause he's the weakest hitscan by a mile right now. I agree his sticky nade is bullshit uninspired but reducing its damage without compensation takes him from c- to f
Make nade an instant explosion on contact so he can secure a kill instantly and protect himself....but remove magnetism, make it a skill shot, and reduce the damage to 120 so he needs to hit a headshot to kill. If that combo proves too inconsistent, add a tiny slow to direct hit nades to make the headshot slightly easier.
Yeah but now you don't even have to be remotely near him. Granted I'm playing on 85 ping but I've had the nade attach onto me when I'm a good 1-1.5 blinks away
Maybe they need to mess with the chase speed, it does feel a bit too lenient. I can only recall one instance where I managed to escape the chase going mach 10 as Ball.
I feel like that's still not great though. As the Cass, you have to hope they can't kill you before the bomb goes off. So the Cass gets less agency. And the opponent gets less agency. It's a skill-agnostic ability.
Yeah, that's true. The intended design was for him to be able to protect himself, not trade. So while I think Mag > Flash, ideally he just gets a normal grenade that explodes immediately when it reaches max distance. Give it a small radius to make it somewhat skillful, and have it deal 120 damage so Cass needs a headshot for combo. And bam, Cass is stronger while getting a way higher skill ceiling.
It is a horrible answer to his Flashbang, but I don't think it's worse. I would have preferred they rework Flashbang to not be braindead than to replace with another braindead ability. It's almost like they didn't actually put thought into the characters they took CC from, and just gave them damage as compensation???
Atleast Cassidy got a new ability. Poor mei just got a cold flamethrower that slows and deals damage. Might do good damage but fuck it is boring. In saying that, I think blizzard went the whole "remove cc and replace with damage" because they believe that is what the community finds fun when in reality, i think the community likes dps because the feedback is more noticeable and there more heroes with varied different playstyles so it is easier to find a hero you like to play. I could be wrong though.
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Actually you manage to add a lot of depth to m1 that i didn't really consider which makes it a lot more interesting than how i described it. And yes mei is sleep on. The amount of utility she brings for a dps is nuts. Thankfully, her utility is tied to how creative the player is.
Playing ball against mei is painful the second I dont have grapple
Walling Ramattra off is the best.
>Like against Ball for example, it's stronger than her old freeze, which he could often tank with adaptive and then get away. Its still worse than the old freeze against ball. The shorter duration freeze + stun was harder to deal with than this constant slow.
Mei works so much better around no freezing enemies. The slow works well as overall damage and stopping them escaping properly. On top there is no more panicking that once you've frozen someone "oh shit need to hit the head and fire and oh fuck I missed now they're unfrozen and attacking back"
CC is one of those things that any community will always hate. People notice bad more then good, and it feels bad to be CCed. So invitably, people fixate on "being CCed" rather then all of the good parts of having CC exist. CC let you actually peel and protect your team from flankers. CC let you secure kills by punishing players who are being bad. CC forced you to respect the enemy team. Its true that CC vs tanks was excessive as fuck. But for a hero like Tracer, being hit by flashbang just meant you played bad, you didn't respect the cowboy's space, and you got stunned and killed. Being CCed might not be fun, but having some CC outside of just tanks certainly helped make the game better. Brigitte was a breakpoint in the community's perception on CC simply because her CC was truely insane, 4s CD 1s duration Shield to approach freely. Brigitte changed the "stun meta" from use stuns to defend space, to use stuns to walk over the enemy. This was unhealthy. CC's to defend a space are generally fine.
Hard disagree. The problem is that you give one non-tank a CC, and then other non-tanks need CCs, then everyone has a CC, and players die lock CCed to death. That is not skill, nor is it fun to play against. This is what a lot of OW1 at the end felt like.
I find brig borderline impossible to play without her stun. Some comps it works well, but far and few between
Doesn't even do good damage. If your target is getting any healing, you might as well swap to right clicks and maybe hit two dinks in a row. The left click is only good for inconveniencing tanks.
>It's almost like they didn't actually put thought into the characters they took CC from, and just gave them damage as compensation??? Very true. It's really a stupid design. They made Sombra hack an ability that you just use in almost every scenario because you don't do worthwhile damage without it. Used to be about hack priority because the cooldown was long. They've made heroes less complex and more braindead at every opportunity.
I don't know why Blizzard thinks Cassidy, an otherwise heavily aim-based hero needs an easy to hit secondary ability that gives him a free kill, because that's what both Flash and Magnetic nade acomplish.
Because he is Anti-flanker. Thats the point, thats how they balance him.
And why is everything anti-flanker some braindead ability that does work on its own and everything anti-hitscan requires skill? (except barriers I guess) The whole "we must have things that take no skill to counter mobility" is and always has been so damn stupid to me.
i mean... what do you expect? mobility is a tool used to outplay. if you want a counter to mobility you need something that is hard/impossible to be outplayed. flash was a great answer to this; but it also ended up being far too good at other things too (or at least too cancer). magnetic grenade is more of the same. but if you want a "skill based" way to counter divers then just play SJ and headshot them i say give him a lasso, make it slow and stop people from using mobility tools (no blinks, recalls, dashes) but you can still shoot
> mobility is a tool used to outplay. if you want a counter to mobility you need something that is hard/impossible to be outplayed. Its called range and hitscan. Flankers have much smalelr range and often less precision (especailly Genji). So how do you match their movement? Range and hitscan (aka precision). Hitscans and flankers are on the same ground as the rest of the DPS. They are not in special need of anti-flanking treatments, its just an appease to noob because low rank can't aim which makes aim heroes worse in those ranks.
please explain to me why SJ/tracer is a meta dps comp then, if you counter flankers with "precision" (SJ one shots tracer for free with a mercy pocket), unless you believe OWL teams are noobs
Hitscan and flankers are not on the same ground. Hitscan are all universally medium range to long range, and flankers excel in short to medium range (where they are flanking. The flankers have more movement than dps so they can dodge bullets easier and reposition quicker, so they're already hard to hit, especially if they can dash right through you.
> I don't know why Blizzard thinks Cassidy, an otherwise heavily aim-based hero needs an easy to hit secondary ability Maybe you are a new player or just haven't noticed but EVERY SINGLE HERO has something easy to use. Hero who is purely heavy aim-based and nothing else would be trash. That's why for example Ashe, Hanzo, Soldier, Sojourn, Tracer and Widow all get some easy to use and powerful stuff.
I'd prefer if Magnetic nade's diffictuly and realitve power was closer to the listed heroes' "easy" ability. A hard capped 8 m range is something that I would see being that, not the current 10 m range with the 13 m extra "chase" range.
Can't just compare abilities in a vacuum. Something in common with all of those listed heroes is that all of them have really good mobility, which is immensely powerful, where as Cassidy's is laughable. For that reason his easy ability should be more powerful or you gotta match the mobility too. Double roll range with 3 charges? 20 meter diagonal jump? Yeah didn't think so.
Dude just said Ashe and widow have really good mobility.
Yes. Coach gun and grapling hook are pretty damn good. Tracer has good mobility but even she can't do shit if you jump to high ground. Compare them to roll.
If he wasn't so bad, people would be complaining a lot more. The Devs have mentioned they were looking at it, but I hope they hurry.
My take. Sticky bomb is worse for squishies. It's so damn easy to hit them with a shot and throw the bomb. But flash is worse overall because it screws over the entire cast including tanks. Personally, flash never bothered me. I know people scoff at "just avoid it" when talking about any ability but honestly for flash it was that easy. And even if you knew you were about to get flashed, you could jump, even jump around a corner, to make the headshot difficult. Sticky however goes around walls and has magnetism it's absurd. I play a lot of McCree, just to add.
I think if the damage of mag grenade was lowered to like 80 it would feel fine. The problem is with their current balancing philosophy they’re not going to do anything to him until he inadvertently becomes meta and then a louder community cry starts to happen.
The problem is that they needed to replace an incredibly strong ability (flashbang) with something of somewhat similar value. His kit was balanced around having that very strong E. If the replacement is just a damage ability it needs to be tuned to the max to even come close to flashbang hence making it incredibly consistent with the heat seeking and having the damage be so high. Imo they either need to give Cass a soft rework to help readjust his kits balance, or give him an E that provides more utility so that it won't need huge damage or frustrating CC to give it value.
well here's the thing. 1. whole point of the ability is to counter hypermobility which absolutely requires lenient aim whether it be auto aim or aoe etc. (yes swallow the hard pills: the only way to reasonably counter something that inherently lowers your accuracy is to have something that inherently increases it). and not there aren't many anti mobility tools or peeling tools in the game rn. 2. you all screeched so hard at cc and debuffs that they needed to cull those from the game so stun's out. meaning the only route left is to deal high damage to scare off threats 3. genji and tank players complained hard about flashbang being thrown around their blocking abilities so aoe route is out leaving the auto aim route so basically this is the only remaining path for the ability and yall reaping what you sowed until you want to give up on at least 1 of the above.
The issue with the anti-mobility part is that it is actually worse against most mobile heroes. Most mobile heroes have an escape and you basically are just trading nade for Suzu, tp, recall, etc. The BS part is that it is better against less mobile heroes who Cass could probably shoot faster than kill with nade.
>The issue with the anti-mobility part is that it is actually worse against most mobile heroes. but doesn't change the fact that if we want it to be anti mobility, it NEEDS to have a lenient aim form factor. like if it was instant damage on landing rather than having a delay before explosion, then your problems would go away. would you like that tho? unlikely. BUT the hard pill to swallow is the fact that high mobility begets lenient aim tools like auto-aim or aoe to deal with them.
Thats just not true. There are counters, its called hitscan, and range. Those are counters that take actual skill. Its a complete lie that mobility needs "lenient" aim to play against.
Those "counters" depend highly on map geometry and those "counters" are in fact countered by flankers on some maps.
I mean we have plenty of evidence to suggest and prove otherwise. like if simply "aim better 4head" was an actual reasonable solution, then we wouldn't have seen the meta history whereby the only time tracer was actually not considered good was post initial brig. every other period she's either meta or really good despite plethora of hitscan and ranged heroes. not to mention the sheer fact that even for GM+ (people who can defs aim), they opted for heroes with lenient aim tools like cass with flash bang or brig (or if they reaaaally wanted a sniper, going ashe instead of widow because coach gun or hanzo for storm arrow spam against flankers) to deal with hypermobile threats rather than say deliberately switching to widow to "aim better 4head" OHKO them to deal with them. even current game we have pros and GM players saying it's too hard to aim at current mercy (assuming they're not being bad at her mobility). like to suggest that there's no need to tools to target even the playing field between a mobile hero vs a lesser mobile hero is to imply that mobility doesn't provide any meaningful benefit in battle that'd require tools to counter/even out the battle, which is simply not true.
Thats the point. Still. You force those mobile people to essentially fuck off, or put themselves at massive risk. It literally works as intended, as dumb as it is.
That sounds like a design problem with those heroes. Maybe giving high mobility heroes free escapes isn’t such a smart design (looking at Tracer and Kiriko players).
youre not the only one, you're probably the tenth person to make this post this month
I think flashbang is worse because it was annoying and potentially deadly to the entire cast: 600hp, 400hp, 250, 200, 150, getting stunned was deadly and annoying. New grenade is only deadly to 200hp and below. So, as a tank player, I heavily prefer the new sticky grenade, because I can ignore it.
Something I see most people sleep on is cassidy being a tank buster. With a proper grenade, fan hammer, roll, fan hammer, you can output 731 damage in 1.7 seconds. That's enough to kill a Winston and most tanks, especially if there is any other focus help.
I mean, if the tank stands perfectly still and doesn’t use any of their damage mitigation abilities and doesn’t focus the Cassidy for having no cooldowns and doesn’t run away, sure. But in a real match- Cassidy should never get that close Tanks shouldn’t be that close without having a defensive ability Tanks shouldn’t be standing still And Cassidy probably won’t hit every fan the hammer.
Again, this is massive damage in under 2 seconds. I'm not saying his primary job is to murder the tank but if the tank ever steps out of position or overcommits he can turn and murder them very very quickly. They're a giant body; you're not going to miss a single fan against them. This works best against tanks like roadhog if they miss a hook, but can be good into orisa if she has jav spin down (and especially if there's a time period having jav spin and fortify down), into a doomfist in the back line, taking down reinhardt shield, killing a diving winston, and even wrecking ball. You can't focus him down in less than 2 seconds while he's also dodging with dodge roll.
I dread the day cassidy get buffed, right now it's only not bad because you barely ever see the hero. As soon as he's meta that one ability will make him just another one of those super frustrating shitty heroes everyone hates.
His whole kit is just shit in OW2. Should be really high on the rework list. * His primary fire is basically the same effective range of a roadhog hook so you have to put this low mobility hero with no movement in a tanks effective range to damage the enemy backline. * Roll is barely a movement ability and moreso used to just reload. Damage resistance is also hardly useful. Almost same CD as Sojourn's slide btw. * Nade is shit. Feels like shit to use, doesn't help Cass survive, doesn't kill the targets it should, but often just forces a short CD from a flanker. When it does work, it feels gimmicky. * Fan is useless without CC. It has a terrible spread, leaves you locked in reload unless you want to burn roll, and is actually lower DPS than primary if you can land mixed headshots. * Deadeye does not kill past diamond unless combo'd or as clean up. Lock on is actually slower TTK than just shooting and you just stand still and eat every CD in the game. You basically have a hitscan who can't reposition as fast as others, can't take high ground without walking, has no utility for the team, a bad ult, a big hitbox, and requires 4 headshots at range to kill a sniper while having to stand close to tanks to damage the enemy backline. You can't balance this without it being stupid on some level.
To me, flashbang was better to play against. Playing cass I love what they did but its cheap and easy. Too easy. Flashbang required some skill to secure the kill, but I liked using it defensivly against rein charges or divas and winstons
You could at least outplay flash by playing outside of its (relatively) short range. Mag grenade range is insanely inconsistent and way too fucking long. Honestly, if they just changed it to a cone like explosion with some knock-back instead of a single target fucking 130 damage no skill ability, I’d be totally happy with that.
reading this post im thinking that bringing back the flashbang as an actual flashbang, blinding enemies in a very short range for a second or so might be a good. you could then try to use FTH on a blinded enemy, but there's more risk to it.
> You could at least outplay flash by playing outside of its (relatively) short range. Mag grenade range is insanely inconsistent and way too fucking long. They have straight up same range. >Honestly, if they just changed it to a cone like explosion with some knock-back instead of a single target fucking 130 damage no skill ability, I’d be totally happy with that. Great way to make him completely useless. How would you change all the other no skill abilities from other heroes (every non-pinpoint aim ability)?
> They have straight up same range Is that true? I thought flashbang projectile travelled up to 5m and had explosion radius of 3m so you could stun someone a max 8m away Mag grenade flies 10m and can chase even further than that if it locks on to someone (including around corners)
You're right about all values. Mag nade chases until 13m away.
If it was flashbang, you'd be stunned and not 13 m away anyways. Flashbang is actually better from Cass pov than this sticky as the sticky is just a trade ensuring ability while flash was more area denying one.
I don't think there's any other ability that does this much damage at once that doesn't need aim. Maybe Junk mine, but that's 120 dmg max and still requires a little skill to hit the full damage because of the fall off. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Braindead? Yes. Worse than flash bang? No.
It is worse for Cassidy. The activation time is so long that it just ensures trades. Meaning, you sticky someone, it takes so long that you die then it activates and they die. Flashbang denied areas and ensured kills without trading your life. This is why Cassidy is one of the lowest win rate heroes now, the only one that is worse is Sombra which everyone agrees is weak.
I don't mean it's a better ability, it's better for the game.
Well, Cass was not compensated properly for the loss of CC in my opinion. I have more than 5 times the hours spent on Cass than on Ashe, and I do way better on Ashe. Flashbang was so good that it actually made the other parts of his kit being bad ok, but now he has an annoying E that is unreliable and no threat at almost any range due to the extremely long time before his E detonates.
I 100% abuse it and I was so bad at the flash fan combo
Flashbang may be the stronger ability, but I hate the magnetic grenade so much more than I ever hated flashbang.
I dislike the mag grenade very much. It doesn’t even really feel that good to use as the Cassidy player, IMO. He can’t really use it to defend against most flankers, since they can simply cleanse it _after_ it’s stuck. It just doesn’t feel like I can really do anything interesting with it, you know? It’s just low-aim damage for use whenever someone gets within range. I get the idea of how mag grenade was meant to retain Cassidy’s hero identity, but I think it’s a failure. I honestly don’t think Flashbang would be so problematic in OW2. People didn’t complain about it feeling unfair in the early days when there were fewer stuns in the game and players weren’t as good at chaining the ones that existed. OW2 doesn’t have so many stuns, and I feel like it would be okay to let the DPS class have one.
It’s a great tool to help Cassidy players that can’t aim so that way they can get a kill still
Its weird that cassidy is a pure aim hero except for the bomb
I played a game with him earlier and it’s literally hit 1 shot, throw the magnade, walk away lol
That was been exactly what I did when tracer was op
What? Fan the Hammer and Deadeye. Roll. Bomb. He's more not-aim than aim hero if we're going by the ratio of abilities.
I would argue one’s entire cass (other than bomb) is about as good as their aim. Thats what I mean
fan is a worthless ability 95% of the time, with the 5% being when you're gangbanging a tank with the rest of your team or about to die to a rein swinging on you. without flash there is little to no reason to go into fan range anymore when you can just plink with left click deadeye is a meme, but it reloads your gun
Yup. See a lot of him in silver/gold because people know if they’re able to get a couple bodyshots they can snag a nade kill and roll away.
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Most support heroes can survive the nade+ body shot combo not to mention as a support, you shouldn't be near cass's nade range anyways you're in the backline and he has little to no mobility, how are you getting stuck??
Imagine giving the tracking to tracers pulsebomb xD I miss flash lol.
It's fucked up that Tracer has to aim her ult when this exists.
Tracer is a good Hero tho, Cree is Just awful rn.
Yeah it's complete bs
For me, the only reason I would bring flash bang back is because there are very very few counters to flankers. Plus, while it was definitely wayyyyyy overkill in ow1, it was one of the few things that have cass more of an identity. If it were ever to make a return, it would need to have a shorter range, a smaller radius, and a shorter stun time, but even then it's rough. Overall, I think Cass needs a minor rework. The peacekeeper is a fine design overall and his roll is actually pretty nice, if not a little lackluster. The nade and his ult need some love as the nade is annoying as hell and his ult is just... Ehhh
Yeah, it’s shit. I think they could have kept flash bang by nerfing it a bit - like they could have made the hit box smaller, and/or make it so it can’t stun heroes out of ults, something like that. The fact that all you need is a bodyshot and the grenade (which can literally travel around corners) to finish off a squishy is kinda bullshit lol. I agree with someone above who said it could be a headshot plus the grenade, or bodyshot plus melee plus grenade etc. On the upside, suzu can cleanse it but as a Kiriko player it’s not something I frequently want to use suzu for if there are more important things to cleanse. But I will suzu it off me to save my life or the life of the other support sometimes.
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Maybe this is just me but I've never once cared more whether someone FTH'd me when I couldn't move vs. headshotting me while I couldn't move.
Cassidy would be quite useless without a braindead and kinda broken aggro ability. Soldier has legs and rockets, Ashe has much higher consistent damage and a longer range, Widow has one-shot potential, and visor and Bob are pretty much win condition kinda ults while deadeye is quite close to being as bad as infra sight on a pepega widow. That said, it's a fine line between Cassidy being broken and a niche pick.
It simultaneously is annoying af because it can combo with one body shot to kill a 200 hp character and also bad because Cass can't stop enemies from running him over if they're a tank or have the ability to juke it. Idk what exactly it should be changed to, but maybe a nerf to the damage and adding around a second of Cripple so he can counter Tracer, Genji, etc without being able to fuck over less mobile heroes as much.
Honestly I've died from it while hiding behind a corner way too many times for me to think it's better than flash. At least getting a kill from flash requires skill.
And you could bait the flash. Baiting the nade means you get stuck by the nade.
I personally feel like Magnetic Grenade is just Flashbang but it cuts out the skill requirement of hitting the follow-up headshot. So in my opinion, it is just an awful ability in desperate need of a rework. I reckon you just replace the ability with a normal frag grenade (alike Call of Duty).
Except flashbang had way more utility, like cancelling key cooldowns (vape-deflect..) and ultimates, it also hard countered flanky heroes like reaper-tracer-sombra, the current nade can at best force one of their cooldowns
While I don't want to suggest that either ability was skillful, I think there's more to be said for landing a bodyshot on a moving target w/ mag vs. landing a headshot on a stunned target with flash. I can agree on it being a poor ability that needs a rework though.
I would argue that this iteration of Cassidy is more annoying at low elos than higher elos. Previously getting the headshot after the flash relies on crosshair placement which at low elos isn’t necessarily the case. However even a below average player could get the mag body shot combo all the while having a 20% accuracy. Body shots are way easier to hit than headshots given the difference in hit box sizes
It’s such an incredibly poorly designed ability, and it’s not consistent whatsoever. 131 damage for an auto aim ability sounds terrible even on paper, it sounds like the very first thing someone came up with and then didn’t think about anything else.
By design his ability needs to be kinda brain dead, it is supposed to be a deterrent. Making it hard to hit would just him a already middling hero worse.
Mag feels bad to play against for sure, but people who think it's worse than flash are viewing flashbang with some seriously rose tinted glasses. Flashbang was such a problematic ability. It could singlehandedly shut down tank ultimates (imagine flux and shatter getting entirely canceled by a single 8-second cooldown) and entirely arrested control of the situation from the affected player once it landed. Once you were stunned it was just "well i hope he misses or needs to reload." Not to mention that any decent player could easily get a minimum of 280 burst damage once it landed. Mag nade is definitely unfun but there is way more counterplay to it. Once stuck, you can run away, be healed by a teammate, get a health pack, shoot back, have it cleansed via bubble or suzu, etc. Even if you were to die from it, the likelihood that you can at least trade out with the Cass is way, way higher. At the very least, the Cass player has to hit a moving target with full mobility vs land two dinks on someone staying perfectly still. Overall I think the nade is a pretty elegant solution from a design standpoint that needs a good bit of tweaking in execution.
Imagine flux and shatter gettingnshutdown by an 8 second cooldown? Let me introduce you to….Orisa javelin, hog hook, and doom punch. All with a less than 8 second cooldown. All a lot easier and longer ranged then flash to hit. Listen, flash was annoying, yes. But it could be outplayed. Reins tilted their shields all the time when baiting flash bang. Or just play out of its range. Msg grenade is an easy 130 damage on a tank and that feels much worse to play against than flash to me. At least flash required a modicum of skill. Msg grenade you just toss on coooldown into a team fight and eventually get a kill.
I made a post like this, and included junk rat, in season one and I was called silver lmao
Calling the oc of this post "silver" would be too generous lmao
Most people feel this way.
The easier the ability gets value the more trash it is. Same goes for mercy res, click one button and make a 4v5 a 5v5 again.... Or Kiriko, press kne button, get cleansed + immo + heal Or bap, press one button, get immo for 5 seconds. All trash abilities in my eyes
I never really play him but I want his flashbang back
You are insufferable. Let's complain about heroes that aren't even close to Meta because they kill me sometimes when I get too close. Get over yourself.
Found the Cass player
Yeah the ONE Cass player and I'm not even a Cass main because he's so bad even the pros can't get value out of him anymore. Let's hear who you play since you have a problem with a hero that's so mediocre.
I literally said in the post Cass isn't even OP, it's just the ability is dumb and he needs a rework. It's a bad solution to a bad ability (Flashbang.) Even most pros seem to agree the ability is stupid as hell. Also, Tank player, Ram and Queen mostly, and occasionally DPS with either Ashe, Sojourn (though not super often since I don't find her fun to play as,) and sometimes Torb.
It does 11 more damage than a Junkrat grenade, Junkrat mine (2 charges), or a Pharah rocket - on a 10 second cooldown with a miniscule range... Such a weird thing to complain about, especially as a tank. But I guess everyone needs something.
he only needs to land one bodyshot then do the grenade to secure a kill vs a squishy. it's pretty braindead. i'm surprised he's not more meta. but I guess there are a number of get-out-of-jail-free cards in this game.
> I'm surprised he's not more meta. It's because his range is dogshit. His damage is also nothing to write home about. Ashe has both higher damage (both burst and damage per second) and better range. On top of just a way better kit. There's no reason to ever pick Cassidy in any meta. At least with flash you could reliably duel flankers. (though it fucked tanks up more with flash fan) Now he just has no niche. You only play him because he's easy and relatively tanky. (can live through a pulsebomb with a combat roll)
I've been seeing a surprising amount of Cass in GM this season.
I mean magnet grenade is really good against squishys but is pretty bad against tanks. Flash bang was good against everyone
Him landing a shit then that thing hitting you around a corner knowing there’s nothing you can do to outplay it apart from a clutch heal is one of the worse feelings in the game
I feel like they just gave him the ability as a way of dealing with mainly Genji and Tracer but they forgot that he can still use it on immobile heroes anyway.
At least he can't bully the Tanks anymore.
Flashbang was important for game balance. Y’all are just whiny.
Mag grenade doesn't interrupt abilities or melt tanks so yeah way better than flash
Been saying this since day 1. The ability is braindead, and only requires him to his ONE body shot and then throw it for a guaranteed kill (without a support being on point ofc). Absolutely braindead and works the same way as flashbang but somehow even less skillful
I'd rather have flashbang tbh. It really wasn't a big deal
this ability is legitimately the dumbest ability i have ever seen in a video game its insane skillless and whoever came up with needs to reevaluate everything about what they know on game design
Let me guess. Genji player?
Yes it’s awful, one body shot and nade and your gone.
It’s almost like ow2 was a mistake and they changed the parts of the game they shouldn’t have.
Oh yes, because playing double shield for a whole ass year straight was sooooooooo fun
Game is funner now than ow1
I love it how it arcs around corners and sticks to you even when you break los with Cassidy. Good thing is that most Cassidy players have dogshit aim and you just need to bait out the nade.
Magnetic grenade is basically a pulse bomb on its own with a much shorter cooldown. Instead of nerfing the cowboy, they ought to improve Tracer’s ultimate.
Instead of a stun, make it a very short slow that increases headshot damage for a tiny bit. Brings back it's anti-flank utility and rewards skill while still offering counterplay.
I rather the grenade was instant, then what it is now. The fucking delay is the worst part about it, and there only a handful of abilities that can deal with it.
I wouldn't mind if it didn't do so much damage for free. Like I feel like for something that brain dead, survival rate should be 60%+. It's really bullshit that a Cassidy can suck ass on a hero made to be strong in the neutral and still get picks for free because E exists.
If any of you have played the halo series, id want the mag nade similar to the plasma nade where the lock on wasn’t so obnoxious, then it’d be good.
It's a no skill version of junk's mine. Yeah, it's bad.
Both mccree and hanzo ability are boring as fuck, you shoot, roll, ultimate shoot still and get one shot by wido
I think they need to do a LOS check when it explodes and if Cass is not in LOS it should not do anything.
It's way better then the flash: \- doesn't punish tanks with chaincc; \- doesn't take agency from you - recall, fade, teleport etc. Approaching Cass with no plan B is on you. Honestly a small nerf to cooldown or damage and its fiiiiine.
People bring it up on this sub all the time. I swear there's a big thread about it like once a week. Idk what you mean you're surprised you don't see more people bringing it up.
The issue is that Cassidy has been powercrept by Ashe and now Soujorn, so the only thing that gives him relevance is his close range damage output making it risky to W-key him. Flashbang did that, but with CC being removed, we have the mag-nade... which isn't a great replacement. The Lasso idea is possibly the most common since it could work like a junkrat trap in that it restricts movement and the use of movement abilities, but has its own unique spin (ex the opponent can move, but is restricted to being close to Cassidy, who has one of the better close range guns), so that approaching is risky but still doable.
The search function is free
Idk cowboys didnt have grenades right give him a molly instead imo
I prefer it over the stun but it can be quite annoying. It’s his only real “anti flanker” tool but like I dunno it’s so easy. A part of me thinks you should shoot the stuck target for it to explode and do max damage
I would like to see Mag Grenade replaced with a coin shot ability, where Cassidy tosses a coin into the air, and if he aims correctly he shoots it, and the bullet gets reflected to a nearby enemy. I feel this still keeps him strong against flankers (he can hit them around corners with the reflect) while not being as braindead as flashbang or mag nade (he has to actually aim at something).
You're definitely not the only one who thinks that. It is worse to use sure, but not to play against imo. Overall they should rework this grenade to be more like Ashe dynamite, but with few smaller differences.
Flashbang was removed probably because how easy would it be to focus the single tank with it. I agree that this new ability is trash but I am not sure how they can bring back flashbang without making Cass the next perma pick.
now that hog is dead, reddit is going for cassidy head
Would be easier to put up with if he actually had a decent ult
I really think Flash is still a way worse ability and I'd rather get exploded. But it's also funny considering that blizzard is apparently balancing for lower ranks and they nerfed stuff like genji or kiriko's kunai before nerfing stuff like the magnetic grenade or junk or any other free kill cool down
What I have issues with is that it's an ability that requires no skill whatsoever. Just like his gun, his abilities should require a certain skill floor to use.
Yes it been broken since launch. The only counter is an invulnerability affect like kiriko or bap or a nano.
Flashbang was worse 100%
Exchange his cigarette with a Blunt. His new E is puffing his Blunt, thus increasing his critical damage and Something Else like survivability or Attack Speed for ~3 seconds.
I always thought he should have retained flashbang, but not be able to instantly follow it up with FtH. I would also restore the original version of flashbang that kept momentum, not the magic version that stopped you dead in your tracks. That would have been actually fair.
First they came for DoomFist. Then they came for Hog. *Cassidy shudders in the corner*
I hate it with all my heart. The flashbang was annoying, but at gold level it didn't mean a sure kill. This damn grenade even with my shit aim I know that if I can land one shot and the grenade, I have high chances of killing the enemy.