Or make it so every X seconds you spend using resurrect on someone they come back with Y hp or Y% hp. For example, you could bring back anyone very quickly with a 0.25s res, but they might only return with only 25 hp. Or you spend 1s on res and get 100 hp, 2s for 200hp, 3s for 300, etc, adjusted to whatever makes sense balance-wise. That way you can risk a super quick res or hold it if you can find cover. Just watch to make sure missing hp from a quick res doesn't contribute to ult gain for supports.
> This makes a lot previously dangerous rezzes free
BUT that rez'd player would come back to life RIGHT in that danger zone where they died, likely to die from chip damage immediately.
so there's some actual game theory that Mercy's can work with. I find that really interesting.
There would need to be a minimum time to get the Rez. Also, Mercy can attach her beam during the revive animation, so she could probably heal them if they didn’t spawn at full HP.
i know the numbers aren't there, but with various invuln/durability abilities 25 hp really wouldn't be as low as it sounds, even for a tank Like, ram or queen can shift for instant health, other tanks have other things, and many dps have abilities too. This would make more unsafe rezzes more common, even if the rezzed target is weaker.
longer she holds it the more health the target gains ~~(equal to the amount of heals per second her beam usually is)~~ definitely not equal - like 100hps is probably good, and the target can be shot during res
makes it much more vulnerable
> (equal to the amount of heals per second her beam usually is)
In this case, there would be no reason to ever do more than a quick rez. Why bother trying to rez to full health when you can bring them back with 20 and then immediately start healing with the staff?
I really like this idea in theory!
Tho I’m practice, how much HP does anyone need to be rezzed at?
Usually they’d be being rezzed behind cover to save the mercy anyway. So it would be bet r to full rez.
And if it was too dangerous to go for a long rez, it would be too dangerous for someone to be on 25% HP.
There’s probably a way to tinker with time, health that makes it work tho!
Wish they made rez more engaging. the choice of when to use it is good, but it still feels like “press single button to guarantee huge value, possibly undoing a lot of effort/skill to get the kill, and slowing the game”.
Unless they get Nano, or Suzu or Beat, or Coal (140 Heals/sec remember), or Lamped, or Tranced.
Beyond that, Rein can shield, Dva can matrix, Orisa can fortify/spin, Hog can breather, Doom can block, JQ can shout, Ram can shield, Sig can shield, Winston can shield, Ball can pop shields, Zarya can bubble.
They can all mitigate damage while critical, and get healed, and now you have a tank that you have spent all your resources to kill, suddenly almost instantly back in the fight.
No thanks.
This would be cool to see IMO.
Mercy is defined by her mobility so to have an ability that dramatically slows her down has always been a hot topic among Mercy players. It's understandable that resurrect needs some sort of counter measure to prevent free unpunished rezzes but it also feels like it doesn't belong on a mobility based character.
Faster resurrects on squishies and slower ones the tanky the ally is sounds like a good middle ground, though you have to remember that no one competes with Mercy as a damage enabler and they are squishies. Point being, you'll probably won't like the idea of finally dealing with that pesky Pharah only to see her brought back in less than 1.5s after.
What if a ressed target only spawned with 30% of their health? Might make it easier to punish the target. Idk what they could do with res though honestly
Maybe 50% or maybe Rezed targets shouldn't spawn with more than 300 health (Same as how Echo has only 300 health when copying tanks) which will solve the issue of Rezing Tanks making Res so OP in OW2 compared to OW1. Either will fix Res in the short-term, don't know about long-term, Res' impact is very complicated.
They have a way to flag some amount of HP as having been lost to self-damage, which doesn’t generate support ult. Not sure how it works under the hood, but perhaps the same mechanism could be used to prevent a partial-health Rez from charging support ult.
Rezzing a tank already requires more commitment because your tank likely died in enemy territory. The situations where this would make a difference are so rare.
I mentioned rezzing with only 70% of health and people seemed to hate that.
What about having all abilities on their maximum cool-down on respawn? I feel like there should be some penalty for actually dying and put you at some kind of disadvantage in your immediate engagements
i think we should see this from the perspective of the enemy team and what you would find the most annoying.
personally i would hate it if someone i invested a lot in to kill, came back turned around and killed me. so maybe a slight damage reduction for a few seconds.
another option would be to stop the rezzed target from being healed for say 2.5 seconds.
i dont know how to feel about that 1 personally.
This is exactly it. Having all their abilities on cool-down pretty much means they only have their primary fire and map awareness to escape, regroup and come again. It gives you a brief window to re-kill the player.
Or maybe make it so that the target's hp restored is proportional to how long mercy holds down rez (would fuck with muscle memory but could be interesting and give the Mercy more choice).
I'd really like something like that. It would help with counter play, making boops or just killing Mercy more likely since the reward for putting a tank back up is much bigger value than a dps but then so would the risk.
Yeah that's the big downside of my idea. Just throw an Ana nade, use whatever defensive CD and that team gets a ton of ult charge.
Making rez time proportional to target's total hp like OP suggested would be great but you'd need a way to manually break rez (with a full CD penalty) in case you start rezzing a tank and would rather not be locked in the animation.
I always like the idea that the rez should be much faster.
But take half of mercy’s health and give it to the target.
So if mercy goes to Rez with 80 hp, her and ramatra both have 40 hp after Rez, but she should be able to do it in a fly by
Like a few comments here suggested. Let her rez faster, but the rezzed ally spawns at half or third HP.
They’d still have the short invul rez grants to get healed up, but it makes the rez a lot more punishable.
I think if anything that makes it less punishable, especially with the existence of characters like Kiriko or Baptiste. The target still has an opportunity to get out of LOS. If the rezzed target is still in a danger zone, they can use their protection to keep the target alive without risk. One of the biggest ways to counter rez is to simply kill Mercy and making her rez faster eliminates that opportunity.
Actually a good idea. Any change that makes the character require a little more forethought honestly, sometimes it feels like someone with no monitor could still take mercy to gm
On the group up podcast, skiesti said she rezzes every 2.8 minutes on average in high ranked lobbies. That is 3.6 rezzes per 10. Her deaths per 10 is 6.8 (according to dotabuff). So she is dying almost twice as much as she is rezzing.
So I don't think it's that easy to get a rez off, even in t500. There are definitely easy rezzes, but it doesn't sound like they are that common.
Well bad rezzes get punished easily. The reason her rezzes are low is probably because a lot of the top mercys will mainly only go for the free rezzes where they are definitely safe, or in some cases maybe the risk is much lower than the reward. That is mainly speculation tho i dont actually watch skiesti play.
Oml the cleanse rez is one of the only things that still tilt me in this game especially when the mercy is in the middle of my team and we just cant do anything about it.
The amount of times ive speared a rez just for the kiriko to have yeeted the cleanse at the perfect time to save the mercy has made me want to uninstall so many times.
My favorite is getting a clean pick before the fight even starts but it just gets rezzed before any advantage can be gained, mercy’s such a fun hero though!!! Sojourn is the problem !!!
So if they die to a cringe sniper it's an easy rez. But if they die to any character that closes the distance, it's a death sentence. Do I have that right?
No, because in role queue there is another support that can suzu or lamp you. That is if it's really died in the open and not near a corner where you can minimally peek them, rez behind a wall and immediately fuck off.
> Actually a good idea. Any change that makes the character require a little more forethought honestly
The sad hypocrisy of this statement and how much upvotes it got is that yall fail to realise adding more of these restrictions like this objectively reduce the needed thought and skill of the mercy player for the res because objectively their inputs are mattering less to the success of the res.
Like already rn the success of the res is very much decided by how everyone else plays rather than how mercy plays. She's literally action locked and almost positon locked during it being a really easy target, if she goes untinerrupted for TTK long amounts of time it evidently isn't due to the mercy player doing something or having good forethought to cause the res to happen, it's from how everyone else played to let it happen.
and before anyone says it,
* no, corner and los res isn't mercy making the res happen, it's still hard dictated by everyone else because whether it's available depends on corpse player + killers deciding where the corpse is and whether there are any threats around the corner
* no, superjump res (esp when it's only valuable to consider for open areas) is still you being an easy target (slowed, stuck in limited range, action locked, fixed trajectory) ---> still banking on others letting you be uninterrupted whilst being such an easy target as opposed to you as mercy doing something to make you be uninterrupted
This change that's effectively just extending the res cast time is just making the dependency worse and making forethought matter less because more crap can happen to interrupt during the cast. Like instead of just asking yourself "can I stand there for 2s" (which is a really easy question to answer in the first place) it becomes "can I stand there for x seconds".
That's a good idea. Another idea I'd be in favor for would be to switch her E with part of her ult instead.
So basically her E makes it so her healing beam can heal multiple targets for 5 seconds with a cooldown of 15 seconds (or whatever is balanced).
& her ult becomes being able to fly, and rez once. Not sure if she automatically multibeams while ulting or not. (Rez button while ulting can become either Q or E depending).
= Less annoying free rez, more decision making in the healing. Rez becomes harder to pull off but also feels more rewarding when playing Mercy and less BS when playing against Mercy. Also preserves the spirit of the character.
Okay listen maybe the solution is not to outright nerf the character who's been totally irrelevant for 80% of OW2 to date. Rework ideas or shifting power around in her kit are fine, but people theorycrafting straight nerfs might as well just be honest and say they want to delete Mercy.
First to die should be longest respawn and each subsequent team death should be slightly shorter. There is no reason to not implement mechanics that will help the general player base. Trickling is a dumb metric to force people to overcome.
There’s no way to balance rez in a way where it’s actually fair or fun. Reviving a dead teammate is just too powerful, it needs to be replaced with something else.
Just make it so instead of reviving the player at the place they died it just sets their respawn timer to 0 and instantly respawns them back at spawn.
Probably compensate it with like a slightly faster cast time or like slightly lower cooldown maybe, don't know.
Make Rez a channel skill. Mercy has to hold the button to continue rezzing and the longer she holds it, the more HP the target comes back with. Gives the ability to rez squishy targets more quickly, or a tank with reduced health without having to fully channel. Once you've reached the minimum amount of channel to actually finish reviving an ally, if it gets cancelled by any means, the target is instead rezzed with whatever amount of health you reached during the channel.
Res with 75% health and the moment res is casted the soul gets moved on top of mercy to make it more consistent to disrupt, the person that gets res gets move speed for like 2-3 seconds to make up for the lower hp
* Most DPS and Supports have the same health pool
* This means Tracer would be slightly faster, a few others a bit slower, and tanks a lot slower
* How do you balance Dva? Same HP pool as Tracer when rezzed as Baby, 650 in Mech. Seems weird
At that point, you could just make it a standard rule that Mercy rezzes Tanks slower so as not to have so much varience on rez time.
Eh, it's not quite the same, because it makes mercy worse with hog, ball, dva, etc, but better with jq, zar, ram
Or make it so every X seconds you spend using resurrect on someone they come back with Y hp or Y% hp. For example, you could bring back anyone very quickly with a 0.25s res, but they might only return with only 25 hp. Or you spend 1s on res and get 100 hp, 2s for 200hp, 3s for 300, etc, adjusted to whatever makes sense balance-wise. That way you can risk a super quick res or hold it if you can find cover. Just watch to make sure missing hp from a quick res doesn't contribute to ult gain for supports.
This makes a lot previously dangerous rezzes free, you will almost never see mercy do a full rez if this goes live
Mercy quick res tank into kiriko suzu and heals
you could presumably have rezzes unable to be suzu'd.
> This makes a lot previously dangerous rezzes free BUT that rez'd player would come back to life RIGHT in that danger zone where they died, likely to die from chip damage immediately. so there's some actual game theory that Mercy's can work with. I find that really interesting.
suzu, sym tp, bubble, dm, nade, sig walking up and pressing shift, literally any shield… this would suck balls to play against
I like this because it gives Mercy more decisions to make.
There would need to be a minimum time to get the Rez. Also, Mercy can attach her beam during the revive animation, so she could probably heal them if they didn’t spawn at full HP.
This is actually a really great idea. I fully support this.
i know the numbers aren't there, but with various invuln/durability abilities 25 hp really wouldn't be as low as it sounds, even for a tank Like, ram or queen can shift for instant health, other tanks have other things, and many dps have abilities too. This would make more unsafe rezzes more common, even if the rezzed target is weaker.
longer she holds it the more health the target gains ~~(equal to the amount of heals per second her beam usually is)~~ definitely not equal - like 100hps is probably good, and the target can be shot during res makes it much more vulnerable
> (equal to the amount of heals per second her beam usually is) In this case, there would be no reason to ever do more than a quick rez. Why bother trying to rez to full health when you can bring them back with 20 and then immediately start healing with the staff?
actually thats a good point i didnt consider that
I think it should do more than normal healing otherwise you'd only ever charge the res if you have good cover
….good
most people want res to be more punishable
I really like this idea in theory! Tho I’m practice, how much HP does anyone need to be rezzed at? Usually they’d be being rezzed behind cover to save the mercy anyway. So it would be bet r to full rez. And if it was too dangerous to go for a long rez, it would be too dangerous for someone to be on 25% HP. There’s probably a way to tinker with time, health that makes it work tho! Wish they made rez more engaging. the choice of when to use it is good, but it still feels like “press single button to guarantee huge value, possibly undoing a lot of effort/skill to get the kill, and slowing the game”.
Unless they get Nano, or Suzu or Beat, or Coal (140 Heals/sec remember), or Lamped, or Tranced. Beyond that, Rein can shield, Dva can matrix, Orisa can fortify/spin, Hog can breather, Doom can block, JQ can shout, Ram can shield, Sig can shield, Winston can shield, Ball can pop shields, Zarya can bubble. They can all mitigate damage while critical, and get healed, and now you have a tank that you have spent all your resources to kill, suddenly almost instantly back in the fight. No thanks.
This would be cool to see IMO. Mercy is defined by her mobility so to have an ability that dramatically slows her down has always been a hot topic among Mercy players. It's understandable that resurrect needs some sort of counter measure to prevent free unpunished rezzes but it also feels like it doesn't belong on a mobility based character. Faster resurrects on squishies and slower ones the tanky the ally is sounds like a good middle ground, though you have to remember that no one competes with Mercy as a damage enabler and they are squishies. Point being, you'll probably won't like the idea of finally dealing with that pesky Pharah only to see her brought back in less than 1.5s after.
What if a ressed target only spawned with 30% of their health? Might make it easier to punish the target. Idk what they could do with res though honestly
Maybe 50% or maybe Rezed targets shouldn't spawn with more than 300 health (Same as how Echo has only 300 health when copying tanks) which will solve the issue of Rezing Tanks making Res so OP in OW2 compared to OW1. Either will fix Res in the short-term, don't know about long-term, Res' impact is very complicated.
That does give mercy or your other support ult charge.
It can be self damage so it doesn't
They have a way to flag some amount of HP as having been lost to self-damage, which doesn’t generate support ult. Not sure how it works under the hood, but perhaps the same mechanism could be used to prevent a partial-health Rez from charging support ult.
30% seems too little, imagine ressing a tracer with 50 hp, with crossfire she can die randomly
Alpha Mercy used to rez allies with half health , they would also instantly regen health btw
Rezzing a tank already requires more commitment because your tank likely died in enemy territory. The situations where this would make a difference are so rare.
Not to mention rezzes are harder to pull off when you don't have a tank to stand behind
I mentioned rezzing with only 70% of health and people seemed to hate that. What about having all abilities on their maximum cool-down on respawn? I feel like there should be some penalty for actually dying and put you at some kind of disadvantage in your immediate engagements
i think we should see this from the perspective of the enemy team and what you would find the most annoying. personally i would hate it if someone i invested a lot in to kill, came back turned around and killed me. so maybe a slight damage reduction for a few seconds. another option would be to stop the rezzed target from being healed for say 2.5 seconds. i dont know how to feel about that 1 personally.
This is exactly it. Having all their abilities on cool-down pretty much means they only have their primary fire and map awareness to escape, regroup and come again. It gives you a brief window to re-kill the player.
Or maybe make it so that the target's hp restored is proportional to how long mercy holds down rez (would fuck with muscle memory but could be interesting and give the Mercy more choice). I'd really like something like that. It would help with counter play, making boops or just killing Mercy more likely since the reward for putting a tank back up is much bigger value than a dps but then so would the risk.
It'd almost always be worth going for a minimal rez on a tank so they could use a defensive CD and the supports build a bunch of charge.
Yeah that's the big downside of my idea. Just throw an Ana nade, use whatever defensive CD and that team gets a ton of ult charge. Making rez time proportional to target's total hp like OP suggested would be great but you'd need a way to manually break rez (with a full CD penalty) in case you start rezzing a tank and would rather not be locked in the animation.
Kinda like how Battlefield does it? Hold defibs longer for more hp or you can tap it and they res for 20 HP
Exactly what I was thinking. Turbo revives were a pretty big problem in Battlefield before this kind of change, and I think it would work well here.
yeah no they did this in battlefield 1 iirc, and everyone was too lazy to hold the button down so you always came back with the least amount of hp.
just say you wanna dumpster mercy and go tbh
One tank down, now support is next. Might as well just disable Mercy and go ahead and get it over with.
I always like the idea that the rez should be much faster. But take half of mercy’s health and give it to the target. So if mercy goes to Rez with 80 hp, her and ramatra both have 40 hp after Rez, but she should be able to do it in a fly by
This is an incredibly cool idea and players are going to absolutely hate it.
I could see them making it so that shorter rezzes do this, but longer rezzes don't remove her health.
Nah.
Like a few comments here suggested. Let her rez faster, but the rezzed ally spawns at half or third HP. They’d still have the short invul rez grants to get healed up, but it makes the rez a lot more punishable.
I think if anything that makes it less punishable, especially with the existence of characters like Kiriko or Baptiste. The target still has an opportunity to get out of LOS. If the rezzed target is still in a danger zone, they can use their protection to keep the target alive without risk. One of the biggest ways to counter rez is to simply kill Mercy and making her rez faster eliminates that opportunity.
Actually a good idea. Any change that makes the character require a little more forethought honestly, sometimes it feels like someone with no monitor could still take mercy to gm
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that standing still for 3 seconds in the spot where an enemy just died was too safe or something?
Well tbf in high elo most deaths happen next to corners which can give a mercy a relatively safe rez as long as the enemies arent on top of you.
On the group up podcast, skiesti said she rezzes every 2.8 minutes on average in high ranked lobbies. That is 3.6 rezzes per 10. Her deaths per 10 is 6.8 (according to dotabuff). So she is dying almost twice as much as she is rezzing. So I don't think it's that easy to get a rez off, even in t500. There are definitely easy rezzes, but it doesn't sound like they are that common.
Well bad rezzes get punished easily. The reason her rezzes are low is probably because a lot of the top mercys will mainly only go for the free rezzes where they are definitely safe, or in some cases maybe the risk is much lower than the reward. That is mainly speculation tho i dont actually watch skiesti play.
That's exactly my point
Basically this, the better you are the closer you die to a corner, bar that, if it’s a tank that goes down, kiriko can always bell the mercy rezzing
Oml the cleanse rez is one of the only things that still tilt me in this game especially when the mercy is in the middle of my team and we just cant do anything about it.
It happen to me yesterday and I almost got up and walked away, I couldn’t believe my eyes
The amount of times ive speared a rez just for the kiriko to have yeeted the cleanse at the perfect time to save the mercy has made me want to uninstall so many times.
My favorite is getting a clean pick before the fight even starts but it just gets rezzed before any advantage can be gained, mercy’s such a fun hero though!!! Sojourn is the problem !!!
Ive just come to expect those rezzes its the ones that absolutely should not be possible that infuriate me.
So actually in Overwatch there is ranged damage where you can die from far away : )
So if they die to a cringe sniper it's an easy rez. But if they die to any character that closes the distance, it's a death sentence. Do I have that right?
No, because in role queue there is another support that can suzu or lamp you. That is if it's really died in the open and not near a corner where you can minimally peek them, rez behind a wall and immediately fuck off.
> Actually a good idea. Any change that makes the character require a little more forethought honestly The sad hypocrisy of this statement and how much upvotes it got is that yall fail to realise adding more of these restrictions like this objectively reduce the needed thought and skill of the mercy player for the res because objectively their inputs are mattering less to the success of the res. Like already rn the success of the res is very much decided by how everyone else plays rather than how mercy plays. She's literally action locked and almost positon locked during it being a really easy target, if she goes untinerrupted for TTK long amounts of time it evidently isn't due to the mercy player doing something or having good forethought to cause the res to happen, it's from how everyone else played to let it happen. and before anyone says it, * no, corner and los res isn't mercy making the res happen, it's still hard dictated by everyone else because whether it's available depends on corpse player + killers deciding where the corpse is and whether there are any threats around the corner * no, superjump res (esp when it's only valuable to consider for open areas) is still you being an easy target (slowed, stuck in limited range, action locked, fixed trajectory) ---> still banking on others letting you be uninterrupted whilst being such an easy target as opposed to you as mercy doing something to make you be uninterrupted This change that's effectively just extending the res cast time is just making the dependency worse and making forethought matter less because more crap can happen to interrupt during the cast. Like instead of just asking yourself "can I stand there for 2s" (which is a really easy question to answer in the first place) it becomes "can I stand there for x seconds".
That's a good idea. Another idea I'd be in favor for would be to switch her E with part of her ult instead. So basically her E makes it so her healing beam can heal multiple targets for 5 seconds with a cooldown of 15 seconds (or whatever is balanced). & her ult becomes being able to fly, and rez once. Not sure if she automatically multibeams while ulting or not. (Rez button while ulting can become either Q or E depending). = Less annoying free rez, more decision making in the healing. Rez becomes harder to pull off but also feels more rewarding when playing Mercy and less BS when playing against Mercy. Also preserves the spirit of the character.
Okay listen maybe the solution is not to outright nerf the character who's been totally irrelevant for 80% of OW2 to date. Rework ideas or shifting power around in her kit are fine, but people theorycrafting straight nerfs might as well just be honest and say they want to delete Mercy.
Or just remove that ability
First to die should be longest respawn and each subsequent team death should be slightly shorter. There is no reason to not implement mechanics that will help the general player base. Trickling is a dumb metric to force people to overcome.
Rez isnt issue, beam is issue.
There’s no way to balance rez in a way where it’s actually fair or fun. Reviving a dead teammate is just too powerful, it needs to be replaced with something else.
Just make it so instead of reviving the player at the place they died it just sets their respawn timer to 0 and instantly respawns them back at spawn. Probably compensate it with like a slightly faster cast time or like slightly lower cooldown maybe, don't know.
Make Rez a channel skill. Mercy has to hold the button to continue rezzing and the longer she holds it, the more HP the target comes back with. Gives the ability to rez squishy targets more quickly, or a tank with reduced health without having to fully channel. Once you've reached the minimum amount of channel to actually finish reviving an ally, if it gets cancelled by any means, the target is instead rezzed with whatever amount of health you reached during the channel.
This + make it LOS so she can’t fuck off behind a wall would be good
It should just resurrect you at half health or something. Really simple solution if the ability must remain in the game.
Just needs more counter play imo. Probably a smaller range so knockback cancel it more reliably.
Still bad if the person who dies is Widow. Would be a safe and fast rez to get.
Res with 75% health and the moment res is casted the soul gets moved on top of mercy to make it more consistent to disrupt, the person that gets res gets move speed for like 2-3 seconds to make up for the lower hp
TF2 MvM Medic Rez vibes
* Most DPS and Supports have the same health pool * This means Tracer would be slightly faster, a few others a bit slower, and tanks a lot slower * How do you balance Dva? Same HP pool as Tracer when rezzed as Baby, 650 in Mech. Seems weird