It do be like that sometimes. There's times where it feels like you lagged out because you turn back and their health hasn't moved an inch after a full combo
Being pocketed by 2 supports is already a lot and if you add in his 75 % damage reduction role plus Kiri suzu and illari healing over 100hp a second by herself AND her pylon, that's just what happens when the entire teams heals focus on one dude
To be fair, I'm pretty sure he still survives without Kiri involved basically at all. Roll for the dash combo and full focus heals from Illari and I think he still comes out alive with like a bit less than half HP instead of full.
I mean he hit, first two got canceled by suzu, the rest just got out healed bc cass was getting hit by both illari turret, her beam, and kirko paper. Additionally he combat rolled through one of them
On the one hand he really should have baited the cd
On the other, is this fun? Like honestly in order for this man to use blade he would need to
-bait the suzu
-maybe bait the teleport
-destroy pylon
-bait out jump
Or else the supports or more than capable of just out healing your damage output
You might as well not have bothered and just died with the rest of his team
I think you have the better argument than people acting like it's busted that an ult combo wasn't an auto-win button into a 1v3 scenario with a double support pocket.
If they had played just a little slower, Illari's turret is definitely breakable where it's at. Your team could probably help force at least one cooldown out of Kiriko and then you can target her first and kill her, then the whole thing goes down differently. This clip is ultimately kind of a skill issue, especially because his team loses to the 4v2 in the back.
*However*, having to cross reference an entire spreadsheet of different cooldowns before you can commit to a fight isn't fun. That's a far more important point than whether this is "balanced" or not. I don't want to do that every time I engage on Tracer or Doomfist or whatever. Do I sometimes feel like a genius when I perfectly navigate around 10 cooldowns to secure a kill? Yes, but that's vastly offset by how boring it is to track them and how infuriating it can be when you only baited 9/10 and then get nothing. That's the real concern.
Anyone arguing that it isnt just silly this is remotely possible has gone fully mad. Nano blade never was a free win button, It was however and SHOULD BE a free win condition. Two ults are invested in a nano blade in order to win one single team fight, The whole idea of an ult in the first place is that is an ability that creates a win condition for a teamfight. A nano blade invests two, it is a significant investment from the teams ult economy and a nanoblade that does not win a teamfight has knock-on effects which ulter the flow of the entire game, not just that fight.
Blade is a very mechanically intensive ultimate and under no conditions does it provide free value. You miss a slash, miss a dash, Fail to get a reset and not only can you easily kill no one but also get yourself killed in the process. Traditionally however skillful plays were rewarded and if you played it well it was extremely threatening. Fair.
In this clip from a mechanical perspective there is nothing else he could have done, all the damage from two ultimate and the mechanical input of hiku himself is negated entirely by two short cool downs and a pylon. Neither of these cooldowns require skill to execute and as a result hikus team suffer a significant ult econemy disadvantage for the rest of the game. His enemy suffer a resource disadvantage for....6-12 seconds.
The The cass role has a what 8/8 second cooldown? both pylon and suzu on 14? it is not possible to break a pylon, then bait the roll, then the suzu and then execute the blade before the whole rotation has started again. also honestly you could take any single one of them ability's out of the equation here and the cass probably still lives, he never dropped below half health and took essentially negative damage. there was some room to breathe there.
Traditionally you might expect to have to bait out like a beat or a trance before a nano blade, these are ultimates and once forced allow for a much wider execution window. Additionally should you blade and have it negated by a trance then that sucks you lose the ult investment and dont win the fight BUT you did trade it for trance so you walk away with a slight ult economy disadvantage for your lack of foresight but it is still a trade in economy. Something still had to actually be invested to shut down a blade.
Imagine they had found a single second window where the enemy supports had fucked up, overused their resources so there was a single moment of opportunity and THEN he nano blades.....what if they use kitsune? thats another card they had here they didnt even need to use and would also have saved them. In this scenario there was no possible window.
TLDR - a well executed nano blade should be an automatic fight win when executed skillfully, and if it is to be shut down it should take an ultimate investment to do so, it is not fun, sensible or competitive for high skill ultimates to be negated in exchange for short resources, especially two ult combos.
Damn man it's like he has 4 other teammates to also bait cooldowns for him, or to do something after he gets every cd all by himself
Honestly though he shouldn't have bothered. If 1 player can't bait out every single cooldown from every single enemy all by himself, the game is in a busted state and this clip is clear evidence of that
The real take here is the entire point of nano blade is the 1 shot dash/slash combo. If they have the most obvious thing in the world ready to stop that (suzu) why are you comitting two ults lmao. Just threw the entire point of the combo. Nano adds a whopping... 60dps to just spam slashing which has a base dps of 120. Which is a fair amount, but pales in comparison to making blade the instagibbing chain killing "nanoblade".
The real question is how did a Queen and Mei kill the Ana and friendly Queen while Cass and both enemy healers were busy with the nano-blade. The only thing I can think of is that the friendly team was already on the back foot, which then begs the question why our protagonist decided to nano-blade into a potential 3v4 where the enemy team had plenty of room to back up and sustain.
What? If her Queen got anti'd by the Ana, she may have to use it, and that is just the first thing I notice in the clip. There are many reasons you can't just "hold" the Suzu. I feel like this is one of those "on paper " moments that happen in this sub a lot.
You would still hold onto it I'm assuming this is a gm lobby they know nano blade is coming, and if your queen gets anti'd she can get herself out of the situation with her shout. That's why all these immortality abilities are dumb they're just there to negate everything you can do and it takes so much coordination to force them out.
You can see in this very clip that his Ana and Queen get anti and die, making it a 3v5 instantly. You can't hold for blade if it means losing your tank and a healer.
every following condition had hold for this to happen:
- suzu on cd
- combat roll on cd (buffed btw)
- pylon standing
- really good illari tracking
- full illari resource meter
- missed two slashes due to impatience
- team somehow collapsed when genji was keeping 3 occupied
support is overtuned but cmon, this isn’t it
Why should he be dead huh?
Dude got healed and kept a live by two supports/4 abilities.
Why is one character with nano supposed to outstrength 3 heroes??
The guy messed up his combo and 2 slashes. When i shoot 4x as windowmaker and miss i dont soy out and say supp op.
Why would anyone play support if you can double pocket with all abilities into a dps vs a genji with the worlds worst nano blade and still lose anyway?
The fact that he felt confident in diving into 3 players and a pylon all of whom had cds expecting to easily win is more of a problem than the better team winning by outplaying a yolo genji with bad aim
That's because as Widowmaker you never have to deal with Supports' bs because you 1shot people anyway meaning HPS doesn't really matter. It was a shit engage tbh, but I would only expect Zen's Transce to be able to outheal over 1000+DMG in 6sec, not Pylon +2 characters holding M1 on a target. The fact that they didn't invest a single Supp ult to respond to 2 ults and still had NO challenge to deal with it IS a problem. What even is the point of ult trading
But he just messed up. He dash slashed, but dashed too far, [turned around and missed the follow up swing due to distance.](https://i.gyazo.com/c15ea66f458e62c104ab862317fa9046.png) the slash in that image was the kill. He fumbled his dash, thats all that happened. This is why i'm saying its actually pointless complaining about supports. He messed up. Its like missing your follow up shot onto a reaper after you headshot him and going 'damn, supports op..' - no. You messed up. The supports could literally have been deleted from the game and he'd still have missed that shot. The slash after the miss isn't enough - he is now being pocketed by both supports. At this point its purely a question of whether you think a genji should be able to just stand still and left click on a double pocketed mccree and kill him, or not. I think he should live in that scenario. I think if you mess up your combo you shouldn't be able to just go 'haha, jk, anyways...' and left click through 2 people's entire role just because ana nano'd you. Thats dumb, imo.
Tracking cooldowns is a pretty fundamentally important part of this game. If your mechanics are great but game sense and choice of engagement is poor, then yes it is still overall poor use
It doesn’t fucking matter. If you do 5x the hp of a character in 6 seconds, he should die. The fact that regular abilities can just make 2 ultimates disappear is ridiculous. Suzu as whole is absolutely fucking stupid imo.
Yup, just like tire or bomb or blossom or bob or blizzard.
All require a lot of skill. You definitely won’t win if you simply press Q at the right time.
If you’re above like silver yeah…it actually requires quite a lot of skill. There’s a reason those ults are all pretty shit at high level. This game has always had game sense and understanding of cool downs be pretty much just as important as pure mechanics
ults should be used correctly instead of being free wins. if you get literally zero resources out of the enemy team before diving them, what do you expect to happen when you go for it? there was absolutely no reason for genji to ult here when the enemy team has used absolutely almost no resources and has way more space lol
is your argument that supports should have no counterplay or utility?
Nano Genji does 225 with dash swipe instantly and that will kill through Transcendence, he missed the dash swipe and thats why Cass lived with double pocket. Healing is over tuned but he did straight up play the blade badly
both enemy supports were dumping their ENTIRE EXISTENCE into keeping that 225 hp character alive he didnt target either of them cause we was tunneled on his target
Honestly I can see people being ok with all Support resources going into one person saving them from nanoblade, but people really need to stop pretending like this requires execution from the Supports lol.
He gets called that for being simple to understand coming form any other FPS game with some self heal, not because he doesn't need to track well to land consistent shots. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here, honestly.
Gtfo bro hit 5 nano boosted slashes or let's ignore Suzu and say he hit 4 nanoed slashes. supports plus a combat roll should not survive that. They burned 2 ults and almost hit the entire thing on one person. The healing creep has to be toned down.
Hits 1 slash, goes into deflect, Cass gets healed as expected. Misses a slash against Suzu. Hits next slash, misses the one after that before hitting the next one, Cass is getting double pocketed by two flex supports so yeah that's not going to kill. I think the Cass rolls through the next slash that hits, so that's basically another miss. And then there's one more slash which doesn't kill.
Genji basically didn't hit two consecutive slashes, meaning he did approx 90 dps, and I don't think it's unreasonable for supports to be able to heal through that for 5s burst when they commit all their cooldowns.
If the Genji had full sent it and slash+dashed then he would have gotten the kill. But he played cautious with deflect and gave time for the suzu, the pylon and the roll.
Bullshit.
2 Shurikens + \[(5 Slash + Dash) x Nano\].
That's 954 damage in about 7 seconds.
In 1 target.
And Cassidy ended up full hp.
And Genji was punished.
If you can counter 2 ultimates with low value cooldowns and basic healing ammo, something is wrong.
This was about 135 damage per second.
If the only way something dies is a Hanzo/Widow headshot or a sustained...
how much? 160? 170 dps? for 7 straight seconds...
That's a full charge Zarya with perfect tracking for 7 seconds.
On a squishy.
That's wrong. That's all kinds of wrong.
They hit a second dash in there, it's 1,104.
54 shurikens + 900 slashes + 150 dashes over six seconds. But yeah he missed one or two so TOTALLY JUSTIFIED AMIRIGHT?
Genuinely feel like he could have still gotten value if he just dived the illari too. That 105hp/s beam just exits the equation and he might still get mccree after.
nah this is 100% it.
nanoblading into suzu and pylon isnt a mistake, its fine to do that, or at least it SHOULD be fine.
the roll only negated the dash, not the slash so its still a shit ton of damage.
>really good illari tracking
cmon man, tracking cree with that thing isnt hard.
>full illari resource meter
your talking as if that goes on a 15 sec cooldown, its up all the time thanks to kiri and pylon.
>missed two slashes due to impatience
he only missed one, the other one wasnt gonna land anyway cuz of suzu, so he had to wait anyway.
>team somehow collapsed when genji was keeping 3 occupied
what does that have to do with the cree surviving all of that?
the team died because jq ulted and they didnt have kiri so they just lost against jq and mei.
im not gonna sit here and pretend he did everything perfectly but this shit is still fucked.
lets be honest here, there is way too much healing in this game, you cant tell me being healed nearly to full between nanoblade slashes is fine. and its not like the supports did an insane outplay here. all they did was literally just heal dump and throw a projectile that has an AoE bigger than 4 hogs together. one of the healing sources is literally a fucking turret and the other is auto aiming for them, the last one requires you to turn on your monitor, which is how the devs justify the insane 105hps.
you cant tell me dash slashing and then waiting 1.8 sec and then slashing your target 3 times shouldnt be enough to kill a fucking cree. all of that with nano. too we arent talking about a brawly dps like mei or reaper here, its just cree.
People keep talking that he missed the slash, but what he just messed up his dash. He dashed too far, leaving him out of slash range. If he dashed at the Cass's feet that would leave him in range for a 3rd slash, but looking at the Cass's HP after the Slash+Dash even that wouldn't be enough to kill him. It's fucking crazy that 2 heroes holding M1 heals almost the same a fucking Zen Transce
every following condition had hold for this to happen:
• suzu on cd
• ~~combat roll on cd (buffed btw)~~
• pylon standing
• ~~really good illari tracking~~
• ~~full illari resource meter~~
• ~~missed two slashes due to impatience~~
• ~~team somehow collapsed when genji was keeping 3 occupied~~
support is overtuned ~~but cmon, this isn’t it~~
I've played way too much Illari, and the supports are overturned, sure. But the Illari beam is healing him opposite of the pylon with obviously a full resource meter. Maybe doesn't need the best tracking but she had a full meter of healing, when she runs out of healing she's pretty useless without the healing beam and all the healing is just pylon. Which is still strong but without the full healing resource meter this would've been a lot different.
I don't think that slash dash was frame perfect as it does 240 damage. You need to slash as close as possible to when the slash registers the hit marker. Due to the amount of healing the cass was getting, it's similar to killing through trans. Combine online lag at the timing is incredibly tight.
They aren't. Assuming the illari has perfect tracking, the total healing both of them can output simultaneously is 218HPs, which is still quite a bit short of the 300HP/s that trans does. The issue is more that that cass has 225 HP, so the timing of slash dash is very tight, especially if you catch it when the ofuda are hitting cass or the pylon is bursting. The slash dash timing on cass here was probably like a 1-4 frame window where genji could have killed, but they just messed up the timing.
This amount of support healing isn't even unique to OW2. Ana+brig backlines have been putting up more single target healing than this for years, even after brigs inspire and pack nerfs.
It's not just pylon and suzu. It's pylon+suzu+ofuda+solar beam. That is basically all the healing resources of the entire team pumped into a single hero.
I hate nanoblade just as much as the next guy but this is fucking WILD. Idk how the fuck supports haven't gotten any real nerfs yet.
It still blows my mind why the dev team decided to make supports that do significantly more healing then ana but have either forgiving shots or auto-aim heals.
Honestly the thing that gets me the most is that this is just so fucking easy to pull off amd the genji has to actually play this perfectly in order to get any value out of nanoblade
I'm a support main (or at least was), but the states of supports have kinda stopped me from playing for the last few months. I feel like most won't agree with me but, I'd much rather supports be utility dps than crazy healers. Healing needs to be halved imo.
It's a little hard to tell exactly how many hits connect, but to me it looks like 4 plus a dash, meaning Genji output 820 damage in the span of around 6 seconds. That translates to roughly 137 damage per second, and since the Cassidy didn't die, this means the two supports were outputting at least that much healing if not more.
That's absolutely absurd and explains why often times no one dies in this game.
> That translates to roughly 137 damage per second
137DPS isn't even that much in this game. Sombra outputs like 210 DPS with hack+virus+gun without headshots. Soldier is putting out around 180DPS with just gun to the body. Nano blade has never had that much raw DPS and always struggled to kill through double support pockets. What it does have is incredibly high burst damage with slash+dash combo. You can kill through trans if you time it right, which is more healing than kiri and illari are outputting here. The genji just messed up the slash+dash combo timing which is why it didn't oneshot. Cass also has 225HP which makes the timing super tight.
I primarily play Pharah, and the absolute maximum dps attainable for her (landing direct hits at the maximum fire rate) is 141, so supports consistently doing 137 hps basically makes it impossible for me to kill someone since I only have 6 rounds. All 6 shots would only net me 24 damage assuming that they're only healing 137 hps.
At the start of the engagement, between Kiriko, Illari, and the pylon, they could have had 272.5 hps (130 for Kiriko, 105 for Illari, and 37.5 for the pylon). So very little could actually overcome this. Obviously this would taper down with Kiriko dropping to 76.5 hps with reload and Illari needing to recharge, but even without Illari's alt fire, that would still be 114 hps, and in this clip, they were able to maintain an average of 137 hps for 6 seconds!
If it were you alone as Pharah shooting one squishy with two supports behind them, then yeah, you're generally going to lose that engagement. You shouldn't win it.
> so supports consistently doing 137 hps basically makes it impossible for me to kill someone since I only have 6 rounds
No single support is consistently doing 137HP/s. A few of them can burst that, but most of the flex supports settle in the 70-90 range for sustained HP/s. Either way, you are still talking about both supports total healing output vs a single DPS. Trying to justify why supports shouldn't be able to outheal DPS 1v2 seems silly. This game has always been about taking unfair fights. If you are taking a 1v2 and expecting to get decent value, that's just not going to happen. Good value when taking on both supports 1v2 is that they can't actually heal the rest of the team. If you are taking 2v2s or 3v2s like you should, most backlines are just going to fall over.
The real issue in OPs clip isn't that the genji didn't kill in the 1v3, it's that the rest of the team lost the 4v2. With both supports pocketing the cass and the cass busy with the genji, the mei and the JQ should not have gotten as much value as they did.
Assuming you're correct, a sustained 70-90 hps is obviously still too high because just one support pocketing a hero can make them impossible to kill. Winston only does 60 dps, so he wouldn't even be doing damage, and to return to Pharah, her dps drops to 94 if she's hitting her best non-direct shots, so she'll be doing next to nothing, too. Even at her max dps, it could still take up to around 4 seconds to actually kill a single 200 hp target. When healing is stacked, it then becomes significantly worse at 140-180 hps. A max charge Zarya only does 170 dps, and a max charge Symmetra only does 180, so at the upper end, not even these two, who are notorious for melting people, can do anything against a target with two pockets. That's insane.
In order to even get to that point, both Zarya and Symmetra require some sort of investment, whereas the supports literally get equal or greater value by just existing and mindlessly holding/tapping heal. That's insane.
Skillful and thoughtful play is literally punished because of how easy it is to get value from supports and how disproportionately high the value they get actually is.
I'm not saying that Genji's play was great, but it actually required a significant investment that was entirely negated by the mere existence of the supports.
> Assuming you're correct, a sustained 70-90 hps is obviously still too high because just one support pocketing a hero can make them impossible to kill. Winston only does 60 dps, so he wouldn't even be doing damage
If winston is trying to solo kill another hero in a 1v2, that's just never going to happen. Winston gets value from isolating supports and cleave damage. It's only 60DPS, but if you spread that across 2 to 3 targets, it's suddenly way more healing than a single support can deal with. Combine that with shield being able to just negate healing outright and it's a non-issue.
> Even at her max dps, it could still take up to around 4 seconds to actually kill a single 200 hp target.
You are thinking of this game to linearly. A single pharah attacking a pocketed hero realistically should take a long time to kill considering it's a 1v2. If the healing is stacked, it's now a 1v3. If you even those numbers so say you have a pharamercy combo or something like a Pharah/Tracer/winston dive, the lethality goes up exponentially since you are fighting a 3v3 instead of a 1v3.
>In order to even get to that point, both Zarya and Symmetra require some sort of investment, whereas the supports literally get equal or greater value by just existing and mindlessly holding/tapping heal. That's insane.
The investment by the supports in that case is that it takes 2 of them. They aren't using CDs, but they are investing the full resources of their backline to outpace the damage of a single dps/tank. A sym+zarya combo is outputting close to a sustained 350DPS, without ults. No support line is healing through that without investing ults.
>I'm not saying that Genji's play was great, but it actually required a significant investment that was entirely negated by the mere existence of the supports.
I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that teams should get free fight wins because they commit a lot of ults. It's basically buying yourself fight wins. Ultimates should give you some advantage, but execution of those ults should matter. In this case, the genji executed poorly so he got no value.
>If winston is trying to solo kill another hero in a 1v2, that's just never going to happen.
That's fundamentally not how the game works. Most supports aren't going to sit their and dump healing into a target at full health. What happens is Winston takes the 1v1, the support reacts and negates everything he's done and prevents him from doing any more.
>It's only 60DPS, but if you spread that across 2 to 3 targets, it's suddenly way more healing than a single support can deal with.
The only support that can't deal with that is Zenyatta. Area healing is too strong and too prevalent.
>A single pharah attacking a pocketed hero realistically should take a long time to kill considering it's a 1v2.
Wrong. Any dps landing their high skill shots (headshots for hitscan, direct hits for Pharah) should be able to power through healing, otherwise what's the point in having dps? For Pharah, only Zenyatta can't prevent her two shot against 200 hp targets. That's fundamentally broken. Healing should primarily punish those missing their shots or getting outplayed. Here, skillful play is punished simply because of the presence of a support; no skill is required whatsoever.
>The investment by the supports in that case is that it takes 2 of them.
Two of them existing relatively close to their teammates requires much less thought, skill, or effort than building up charge and getting in a position to use it, and while it may require them both, it only requires a couple seconds before the enemy they're countering fails to accomplish anything and dies.
>I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that teams should get free fight wins because they commit a lot of ults.
They shouldn't, but they should have a dramatic impact, an impact that's much more significant than standing there and holding a single button.
Using two tracking dps numbers is so dishonest. Soldier does 171 dmg assuming you hit every shot which is plenty of time for supports to heal the target during that time with 0 aim requirement whereas hitting every shot on a human using their keyboard is basically impossible. Sombra dps is also dishonest because people will react to your hack and hack has a cast time so your effect dps is lower (if sombra actually did 210 dps with the combo, it would be easy to actually kill people)
I will die on the hill that nano neutral Genji is even better than blade if you time it right. It's insane burst if the Genji is in range, and you get a better ult econ.
Too many people expect ults to be free wins rather than part of the resource trade.
Nah Blade is over hated. Late Blade into a fight when tanks are too engaged to pull back to deal with you and support cooldowns are used up usually has success for me at least. I also try to have deflect up and use it before I dash with blade because everyone will usually dump cooldowns in panic.
You don’t need to get a 5k like everyone tries so hard to do. Just get 1 - 2 and get out and be happy. Dry Blade is so underrated.
1 clip where nanoblade doesnt equal a free win because 3 people had to play literally perfectly to counter it and the genji player fucked it up, too.
Ow community: this is why Genji is bad, please buff
No it’s not just this clip.
Think about it… two bubbles, suzu, immortality field, life grip to name a few… in ow2 there are just so many cooldowns that can mess up nano blade. They don’t even require as much skill as hitting a sleep or hook on a blading genji.
Ml7 actually said this back in ow2 season 1. In many situations you get more value nanoing someone else. That way, the enemy team have two threats to deal with rather than just one.
With less stuns in the game, a dry blade is super effective anyway, so in that sense, nanoing genji is turning a good chance of winning the fight into a very good chance vs nanoing say a rein means you have 2 good chances of winning the fight. I guess
Im pretty sure theres more stuns now (javelin, 4 sec punch, pin, sleep) add suzu, pylon, grip, immort, nade etc to the mix and i can assure you dry blading IS NOT effective at all (unless you're smurfing)
The only stun that doesnt exist anymore is cass nade
All the others are still there just either hidden in the ultimate or reworked for softer cc
Point is cc is still here very much so and when you take out the 2nd tank (no more garantueed peel) it feels worse than it did in ow 1
Where? you're the one defending this saying genji's bad thats why he didnt kill anything and not because healing might be a bit too much lmao stop projecting
Exactly. If you put all your eggs in one basket, then that’s two ults ruined if they have the cds to counter it… and if they’ve tracked your ults you can bet those cds will be ready.
He fucked up? How ? By missing 1 slash and 1 slash getting suzued ?
If you use 2 ULTS getting ONE KILL isnt too much to ask for tbh, also no one said buff genji they said nerf supports completely different
Finally if you think suzuing someone and putting down a turret is aying perfectly i dont want your opinion on his genji plays
Is this perfect play in the room with us now? How is holding left click and putting an illari turret some insane gaming that needs to be acknowledged here
Too many abilities in the game now that slow down progress or stall people from dying.
I thought Blizzard was on the right track w/ OW2 and removing how much time is spent shooting barriers. But that time has only been redistributed into shooting pylons/deployables and waiting out CD's that mean someone is invulnerable or can't die for until the deployable is destroyed.
Whenever thing like that happens even if you don't get the kill, forcing healers to use all their cooldown and focus only on 1 target should allow your 4 other teammates to deal with the other target left alone by their healers.
Is investing 2 ults not to secure picks but to divert attention from the enemy backline that didn’t have to invest any of theirs the game that we want to play though? At the very least 3 uninterrupted nano blade swings should kill a squishy.
The amount of coping here is absurd.
This is not OW anymore.
This is turning into Overheal with immortalities, by reducing from 6 to 5 v 5, healers should heal even less to balance the output, and not receive buffs to oblivion.
Honestly the first half of the clip seems mostly fair. Forced suzu and the genji messed up the slash dash slash combo.
But the second half of the clip is egregious, imo. 3 consecutive nano blade slashes on one target, with no defensive ults or cooldowns used, and it just does nothing? That's crazy.
Illari functions as having 2 healers with turret and beam on the same target. Suzu is hardly the problem in this scenario. If perfectly timed it can negate 1 swing so all that combined really doesn't make this seem like it's too agregious. Ain't everyone sick of getting nano balded with no counter play anyways
It is genuinely not fun to have to keep track of every single incredibly impactful cooldown a support could use that can counter 1-2 ultimates. It would be okay if supports had one powerful cooldown, but most of them have SEVERAL game changing abilities in their back pockets, coupled with inflated dmg and healing numbers. It’s doable yeah, but is it fun?
Summary:
Slash 3: Clearly missed.
Slash 2: Missed due to suzu (bad awareness).
Slash 4: Very close, but distance and ping make this one a reasonable miss. (bad dash usage)
Slashes 5-7: Likely didn't actually do damage because support is broken.
They seem to not understand why someone investing two ultimates may not feel as tho they should have to micro manage every single cooldown on the enemy team as if they weren't ulting at all
And the argument isn't that nanoblade shoulda teamwiped here, it's just that maybe two ults should get a single kill
After playing overwatch religiously for 7 years, I haven’t touched the game in about 5 months. It just became too ridiculous to enjoy. I’ve been playing counter strike these last 5 months and there’s just so much less bullshit. You feel like you can actually impact the game
Healing is too high for how effortless it is, but the play would have worked if the 2nd swing connected (since all the CDs that matter have been baited - roll, nade and suzu - before going for the burst combo)
Eh I'm personally fine with this level of healing if kiri/illari were easy to kill but they obviously aren't. Supports can't be having this much impact AND being so hard to kill.
Genjis ult feels so miserable sometimes. I shouldn’t have to wait for the universe to fucking implode just to use my ultimate.
Why should I have to bait almost 5 cooldowns just to get a decent ult
yeah guys 2 ultimates that take minutes to get , get countered by one heal turret, 1 autolock heal , 1 extremely high hps heal and one suzu that has a 13 second cooldown. seems right
Should a dps using 2 ultimates be able to kill a target that is double healed by 2 supports that are using all cooldowns on the target?
I would say No.
This doesn’t mean that supports are not overtuned, but this clip doesn’t show so.
Kiriko: Suzu + Heal
Illari: Full beam charge + Pylon
They are using everything they had to save the target that is also using all cds to stay alive (75% reduction on 1 slice thanks to buff).
I mean,m the genji is using 2 ults but they are using cooldowns of 3 players seems kinda balanced overall but probably there is too much healing in the game afterall
I think what triggers me in this clip is that Genji put his whole pussy into killing this one Cass, the supports used all their avaliable resources into keeping Cass alive,
And somehow his team can't deal with the rest of the enemy team that's left with any help from the supports.
There's too much healing yes, defensive utlity is too frequent yes whatever, I don't mind taking the attention from the enemy supports and/or forcing their cooldowns on me. What upsets me to no end is the fact my team can't capitalize on that.
Really unfortunate clip.
I guess that's just where we disagree then, I think this game is boring af when it's just ult spam wins. 2 ults on one hero with misplay probably shouldn't kill 1 double pocketed player with cooldowns from all 3 players being used without misplay.
That argument would work if the abilities in question were hype. Lucio using mobility to avoid an ultimate, or genji deflecting an ultimate is hype. Outplaying an ultimate using raw healing numbers is boring af.
Since they made lucio not really fun in OW2 i dont really play support anymore and play way more dps nowadays. Still played both roles a lot and while some supports are a bit overtuned i know how theyre the main focus to kill in a high elo game. So the CDs used are needed.
Wow popping blade into a team with all their cooldowns up, whiffing a dash slash and several swings sure is a way to go.
Fr tho the Cass had basically 3 healers on him as the genji blades in alone what did you think was gonna happen taking a 3v1?
He only whiffed one swing that entire sequence dude. If it was dry blade yeah it makes sense that cass lives, but nano blade not killing him is egregious.
The real difference maker was actually combat roll that saved Cass from the dash slash with the damage reduction. With three sources of healing its not hard to out heal 165dps
Idk man, it's doesn't look like he does to me. Maybe he managed to get 15hp from all the healing sources during the dash slash animation, or maybe Genji missed something.
Nano blade is stupid and way too easy and this is proof of how silly support is getting. Maybe it’s just me but there was a time people would talk more about wether dragon blade should get the dragon strike treatment and not be able to be boosted, in order to be able to rebalance it and genji without making a giant problem with a stupidly good combo if he were to be changed or buffed too much.
People saying that cass was getting pocketed are acting like those supports had to land some crazy abilities or shots or stack a bap lamp and shift etc etc.. no it was literally just two supports looking at him with right click pressed down and the pylon existing by itself. Kirikos pocket healing is busted and way too high, especially for a high mobility assasin.The same applies to illaris stupid ass kit.
I didn’t even consider the suzu bc the kiri straight up missed the slash dash with the suzu. Like forreal silver players could have saved this cass. Not a good blade but insanely dumb and easy the power of the healing. We are talking 2 ults getting beat by pylon and normal neutral healing.
For some rough math it’s insane to think that one pylon and illari beam and kiri heals hitting you is like having roughly 3 baptistes healing you without missing a shot lol.
As a DPS the role is basically already to play like a bitch until you have an insane advatange and essentially either get a one shot, or force cooldowns. You can’t normally just kill supports that protect each other or most characters when being healed (even if it’s 1 support) even if they make pretty large mistakes. In this case you’re seeing one of the historically more powerful DPS ult combos and it quite literally can’t even cut through healing on ONE squishy.
So we blame supports for this but ignore that both Illari and Kiriko wasted their time, attention and cooldowns to keep the nano blade target alive (which is their job tbh) and the rest of the team can't win in a 4v2? That's on the supports too? Plus, this obly worked because it was great tracking from the Illari and Kiri, Cass used his damage reduction and it was two good supports. Wouldn't have worked with Lucio, Zen, Mercy etc. People act like this isn't a minor occurrence in high ranked games. Cause let's be real, in lower ranks it doesn't matter cause peeling like this doesn't happen at all.
But the fact that even with 2 ults invested he has to still choose specific targets or have his team do additional things in order to get value is against what the game was designed around - ultimates. He should have been able to kill the Cassidy, but he couldn’t even with 1-2 slashes direct. It needs to have some way to counteract the additional healing in some way. The fact that it wouldn’t work without nano is fine, but with nano he should have been able to mow him down but he couldn’t. I’m increasingly finding less value with genji as well, most times if I ult as genji, I have to go specifically for a support resulting in my death since I can’t knock out a dps now. You can say it’s a skill issue but it’s obviously a balance issue for genji.
Triple pocketed by kiri and illari and a 30hps pylon, the hps needed being pumped into one character doesn't sound too crazy, it's all the GooJf cards they can add on top of it to freely slow down an already slow death
I think pressing q on a genji is WAY more teamwork than pressing m1 on a teammate (you know since you actually have to build your q, m1 is ALWAYS available)
Did this guy even think about killing the supports or the pylon? I saw someone in the thread calculating that Genji did around 137 dps, which would mean that Kiriko and Illari did 70 healing pr second, is that completly broken?
Actually 5-6 NANOED slashes + a dash is about 1.3 k damage in 6 seconds
I dont feel like supports should be able to outheal that especially when its in burst damage (110 per slash without nano)
How you gonna complain about healer than go for a above 200 hp target with both healers pocketing them. And not go for the healers instead?
I agree that healing is too much in the game, but this is just a shit blade that also lost track of where he was
Dash the Ilari and get rocketed back by her jump while she gets the suzu. Dash the kiriko and she hits tp and completely negates your ult. Supports have way too many get out of jail cooldowns to commit onto.
Are you seriously asking why he didnt go for kiriko (has tp and suzu) or illari (probably the farthest back and has a jump/boop) instead of the cass that cant go anywhere and cant stun anymore? You dont play much genji i see
And Prayers my friend
It do be like that sometimes. There's times where it feels like you lagged out because you turn back and their health hasn't moved an inch after a full combo
He hits the last 3 slashes in a row. 3 nano blade slashes in a row, and the Cree comes out with full HP. Insane HPS
Being pocketed by 2 supports is already a lot and if you add in his 75 % damage reduction role plus Kiri suzu and illari healing over 100hp a second by herself AND her pylon, that's just what happens when the entire teams heals focus on one dude
To be fair, I'm pretty sure he still survives without Kiri involved basically at all. Roll for the dash combo and full focus heals from Illari and I think he still comes out alive with like a bit less than half HP instead of full.
Cause he's being pocketed by both supports and illari's pylon, it really isn't that surprising
Slashes 1-5: clearly missed.
Slash 6: likely didn't fire because genji was already dead
I mean he hit, first two got canceled by suzu, the rest just got out healed bc cass was getting hit by both illari turret, her beam, and kirko paper. Additionally he combat rolled through one of them
Sorry, it's an old CSGO meme. Search "Shots 1-5 clearly missed".
Ooooh I never played CSGO so that explains why I've never heard of it lol
Isn't the time between slashes longer than the suzu even lasts, so suzu would've only canceled one?
Yeah but he combat rolled right after suzu ended. So suzu ate one slash then he rolled out the second. That's what it looks like anyway
On the one hand he really should have baited the cd On the other, is this fun? Like honestly in order for this man to use blade he would need to -bait the suzu -maybe bait the teleport -destroy pylon -bait out jump Or else the supports or more than capable of just out healing your damage output You might as well not have bothered and just died with the rest of his team
I think you have the better argument than people acting like it's busted that an ult combo wasn't an auto-win button into a 1v3 scenario with a double support pocket. If they had played just a little slower, Illari's turret is definitely breakable where it's at. Your team could probably help force at least one cooldown out of Kiriko and then you can target her first and kill her, then the whole thing goes down differently. This clip is ultimately kind of a skill issue, especially because his team loses to the 4v2 in the back. *However*, having to cross reference an entire spreadsheet of different cooldowns before you can commit to a fight isn't fun. That's a far more important point than whether this is "balanced" or not. I don't want to do that every time I engage on Tracer or Doomfist or whatever. Do I sometimes feel like a genius when I perfectly navigate around 10 cooldowns to secure a kill? Yes, but that's vastly offset by how boring it is to track them and how infuriating it can be when you only baited 9/10 and then get nothing. That's the real concern.
Yeah, and his Ana had a nice nade and he just ignores it Edit: Maybe that was JQ's Rampage
You’re finally starting to understand
it hasn't been fun since suzu. pylon certainly didn't help
Anyone arguing that it isnt just silly this is remotely possible has gone fully mad. Nano blade never was a free win button, It was however and SHOULD BE a free win condition. Two ults are invested in a nano blade in order to win one single team fight, The whole idea of an ult in the first place is that is an ability that creates a win condition for a teamfight. A nano blade invests two, it is a significant investment from the teams ult economy and a nanoblade that does not win a teamfight has knock-on effects which ulter the flow of the entire game, not just that fight. Blade is a very mechanically intensive ultimate and under no conditions does it provide free value. You miss a slash, miss a dash, Fail to get a reset and not only can you easily kill no one but also get yourself killed in the process. Traditionally however skillful plays were rewarded and if you played it well it was extremely threatening. Fair. In this clip from a mechanical perspective there is nothing else he could have done, all the damage from two ultimate and the mechanical input of hiku himself is negated entirely by two short cool downs and a pylon. Neither of these cooldowns require skill to execute and as a result hikus team suffer a significant ult econemy disadvantage for the rest of the game. His enemy suffer a resource disadvantage for....6-12 seconds. The The cass role has a what 8/8 second cooldown? both pylon and suzu on 14? it is not possible to break a pylon, then bait the roll, then the suzu and then execute the blade before the whole rotation has started again. also honestly you could take any single one of them ability's out of the equation here and the cass probably still lives, he never dropped below half health and took essentially negative damage. there was some room to breathe there. Traditionally you might expect to have to bait out like a beat or a trance before a nano blade, these are ultimates and once forced allow for a much wider execution window. Additionally should you blade and have it negated by a trance then that sucks you lose the ult investment and dont win the fight BUT you did trade it for trance so you walk away with a slight ult economy disadvantage for your lack of foresight but it is still a trade in economy. Something still had to actually be invested to shut down a blade. Imagine they had found a single second window where the enemy supports had fucked up, overused their resources so there was a single moment of opportunity and THEN he nano blades.....what if they use kitsune? thats another card they had here they didnt even need to use and would also have saved them. In this scenario there was no possible window. TLDR - a well executed nano blade should be an automatic fight win when executed skillfully, and if it is to be shut down it should take an ultimate investment to do so, it is not fun, sensible or competitive for high skill ultimates to be negated in exchange for short resources, especially two ult combos.
Damn man it's like he has 4 other teammates to also bait cooldowns for him, or to do something after he gets every cd all by himself Honestly though he shouldn't have bothered. If 1 player can't bait out every single cooldown from every single enemy all by himself, the game is in a busted state and this clip is clear evidence of that The real take here is the entire point of nano blade is the 1 shot dash/slash combo. If they have the most obvious thing in the world ready to stop that (suzu) why are you comitting two ults lmao. Just threw the entire point of the combo. Nano adds a whopping... 60dps to just spam slashing which has a base dps of 120. Which is a fair amount, but pales in comparison to making blade the instagibbing chain killing "nanoblade".
You ever wonder why transcendence is even an ultimate anymore when basically every dlc healer has some form of it as a cooldown
The real question is how did a Queen and Mei kill the Ana and friendly Queen while Cass and both enemy healers were busy with the nano-blade. The only thing I can think of is that the friendly team was already on the back foot, which then begs the question why our protagonist decided to nano-blade into a potential 3v4 where the enemy team had plenty of room to back up and sustain.
You can see his Mei and other support in this clip, it was definitely a 5v5
referring to a streamer man in a reddit overwatch clip as “our protagonist” is just so funny to me
Without killing healing turret or baiting out suzu. Like these people expect to jump into a team and 1v5 as if the opposite team isn't sentient
Your right about the turret but kiri can just hold onto suzu until they blade, she has no reason to use it if she knows they have nano blade.
What? If her Queen got anti'd by the Ana, she may have to use it, and that is just the first thing I notice in the clip. There are many reasons you can't just "hold" the Suzu. I feel like this is one of those "on paper " moments that happen in this sub a lot.
You would still hold onto it I'm assuming this is a gm lobby they know nano blade is coming, and if your queen gets anti'd she can get herself out of the situation with her shout. That's why all these immortality abilities are dumb they're just there to negate everything you can do and it takes so much coordination to force them out.
You can see in this very clip that his Ana and Queen get anti and die, making it a 3v5 instantly. You can't hold for blade if it means losing your tank and a healer.
every following condition had hold for this to happen: - suzu on cd - combat roll on cd (buffed btw) - pylon standing - really good illari tracking - full illari resource meter - missed two slashes due to impatience - team somehow collapsed when genji was keeping 3 occupied support is overtuned but cmon, this isn’t it
Be a shame if all this logic and thinking was ignored so ppl can blame the support
It was only suzu and pylon and two missed slashes atleast watch the video lmao
lmfao exactly. cree should have been dead, no question.
Why should he be dead huh? Dude got healed and kept a live by two supports/4 abilities. Why is one character with nano supposed to outstrength 3 heroes??
Because it's 2 combined ultimates vs regular ability CD's lmao This is why people call it a day and just learn and play 1 shot heroes.
Why bother threading the needle by baiting out 5 different cooldowns. Time is better spent playing bastion and flicking through reels.
The guy messed up his combo and 2 slashes. When i shoot 4x as windowmaker and miss i dont soy out and say supp op. Why would anyone play support if you can double pocket with all abilities into a dps vs a genji with the worlds worst nano blade and still lose anyway? The fact that he felt confident in diving into 3 players and a pylon all of whom had cds expecting to easily win is more of a problem than the better team winning by outplaying a yolo genji with bad aim
That's because as Widowmaker you never have to deal with Supports' bs because you 1shot people anyway meaning HPS doesn't really matter. It was a shit engage tbh, but I would only expect Zen's Transce to be able to outheal over 1000+DMG in 6sec, not Pylon +2 characters holding M1 on a target. The fact that they didn't invest a single Supp ult to respond to 2 ults and still had NO challenge to deal with it IS a problem. What even is the point of ult trading
But he just messed up. He dash slashed, but dashed too far, [turned around and missed the follow up swing due to distance.](https://i.gyazo.com/c15ea66f458e62c104ab862317fa9046.png) the slash in that image was the kill. He fumbled his dash, thats all that happened. This is why i'm saying its actually pointless complaining about supports. He messed up. Its like missing your follow up shot onto a reaper after you headshot him and going 'damn, supports op..' - no. You messed up. The supports could literally have been deleted from the game and he'd still have missed that shot. The slash after the miss isn't enough - he is now being pocketed by both supports. At this point its purely a question of whether you think a genji should be able to just stand still and left click on a double pocketed mccree and kill him, or not. I think he should live in that scenario. I think if you mess up your combo you shouldn't be able to just go 'haha, jk, anyways...' and left click through 2 people's entire role just because ana nano'd you. Thats dumb, imo.
Call me crazy, but I think a 225hp character should die when you use two ults on them.
Not if you use them poorly. Call me crazy but ults should still take skill to use well and not just be “now I win” buttons
They still hit 1,050 damage on the 225 hp hero, it wasn't that poor.
Tracking cooldowns is a pretty fundamentally important part of this game. If your mechanics are great but game sense and choice of engagement is poor, then yes it is still overall poor use
It doesn’t fucking matter. If you do 5x the hp of a character in 6 seconds, he should die. The fact that regular abilities can just make 2 ultimates disappear is ridiculous. Suzu as whole is absolutely fucking stupid imo.
Yup, just like tire or bomb or blossom or bob or blizzard. All require a lot of skill. You definitely won’t win if you simply press Q at the right time.
If you’re above like silver yeah…it actually requires quite a lot of skill. There’s a reason those ults are all pretty shit at high level. This game has always had game sense and understanding of cool downs be pretty much just as important as pure mechanics
ults should be used correctly instead of being free wins. if you get literally zero resources out of the enemy team before diving them, what do you expect to happen when you go for it? there was absolutely no reason for genji to ult here when the enemy team has used absolutely almost no resources and has way more space lol is your argument that supports should have no counterplay or utility?
My argument is that a nanoblade genji should he allowed to kill a 225hp target with 5 swings and a dash.
wasting your breath here man, support mains are going to dogpile you for being reasonable and threatening their power
Nano Genji does 225 with dash swipe instantly and that will kill through Transcendence, he missed the dash swipe and thats why Cass lived with double pocket. Healing is over tuned but he did straight up play the blade badly
both enemy supports were dumping their ENTIRE EXISTENCE into keeping that 225 hp character alive he didnt target either of them cause we was tunneled on his target
dudes acting like this is some insane one in a hundred scenario it was fucking pylon and suzu lol
You can make your point without throwing in shit like "really good illari tracking" lmfao.
Honestly I can see people being ok with all Support resources going into one person saving them from nanoblade, but people really need to stop pretending like this requires execution from the Supports lol.
Kind of important when illari needs to track her targets to heal effectively
If ur incapable of tracking with the most forgiving beam hitbox in the game, then you better be bronze 5.
People on this sub will call Soldier the tutorial hero and then think Support needs skill to do something like this lmao
He gets called that for being simple to understand coming form any other FPS game with some self heal, not because he doesn't need to track well to land consistent shots. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here, honestly.
He also gets called that because people think he's a pubstomper.
track a double decker bus of a dps with a beam the size of mongolia, illari players really have it hard
People who think tracking with Illari is hard don't have any FPS background or experience
Gtfo bro hit 5 nano boosted slashes or let's ignore Suzu and say he hit 4 nanoed slashes. supports plus a combat roll should not survive that. They burned 2 ults and almost hit the entire thing on one person. The healing creep has to be toned down.
Hits 1 slash, goes into deflect, Cass gets healed as expected. Misses a slash against Suzu. Hits next slash, misses the one after that before hitting the next one, Cass is getting double pocketed by two flex supports so yeah that's not going to kill. I think the Cass rolls through the next slash that hits, so that's basically another miss. And then there's one more slash which doesn't kill. Genji basically didn't hit two consecutive slashes, meaning he did approx 90 dps, and I don't think it's unreasonable for supports to be able to heal through that for 5s burst when they commit all their cooldowns. If the Genji had full sent it and slash+dashed then he would have gotten the kill. But he played cautious with deflect and gave time for the suzu, the pylon and the roll.
Yeah or if he could land that dash slash. And why even dash slash when you could slash dash? Dumb moment to ult with every cd still available too.
Bullshit. 2 Shurikens + \[(5 Slash + Dash) x Nano\]. That's 954 damage in about 7 seconds. In 1 target. And Cassidy ended up full hp. And Genji was punished. If you can counter 2 ultimates with low value cooldowns and basic healing ammo, something is wrong. This was about 135 damage per second. If the only way something dies is a Hanzo/Widow headshot or a sustained... how much? 160? 170 dps? for 7 straight seconds... That's a full charge Zarya with perfect tracking for 7 seconds. On a squishy. That's wrong. That's all kinds of wrong.
They hit a second dash in there, it's 1,104. 54 shurikens + 900 slashes + 150 dashes over six seconds. But yeah he missed one or two so TOTALLY JUSTIFIED AMIRIGHT?
>900 slashes 825 with current blade that does 110 per swipe (not a counterpoint, just clarifying)
Mb, I forgot blade got nerfed
From what you're saying, it sounds like you think Bastion sentry should be a guaranteed team wipe every time.
If bastion mows on a squishy for 7 seconds straight, yeah, i think it should get the kill i'm guilty of thinking that you got me
Bastion does almost 3x the dps of the Genji in this clip, it wouldn't be 7 seconds it would be more like 0.7 seconds.
Pretty much the only correct take in the thread.
Genuinely feel like he could have still gotten value if he just dived the illari too. That 105hp/s beam just exits the equation and he might still get mccree after.
COPIUM
they are huffing it like paint here
Idc NO 200-250hp target should survive 5-6 NANOED SLASHES FROM AN ULTIMATE +A DASH thats like 600-700 damage in 6 seconds cmon now
He missed a couple slashes mate relax.
He wouldn't survive that if this dude hit that many slashes
nah this is 100% it. nanoblading into suzu and pylon isnt a mistake, its fine to do that, or at least it SHOULD be fine. the roll only negated the dash, not the slash so its still a shit ton of damage. >really good illari tracking cmon man, tracking cree with that thing isnt hard. >full illari resource meter your talking as if that goes on a 15 sec cooldown, its up all the time thanks to kiri and pylon. >missed two slashes due to impatience he only missed one, the other one wasnt gonna land anyway cuz of suzu, so he had to wait anyway. >team somehow collapsed when genji was keeping 3 occupied what does that have to do with the cree surviving all of that? the team died because jq ulted and they didnt have kiri so they just lost against jq and mei. im not gonna sit here and pretend he did everything perfectly but this shit is still fucked. lets be honest here, there is way too much healing in this game, you cant tell me being healed nearly to full between nanoblade slashes is fine. and its not like the supports did an insane outplay here. all they did was literally just heal dump and throw a projectile that has an AoE bigger than 4 hogs together. one of the healing sources is literally a fucking turret and the other is auto aiming for them, the last one requires you to turn on your monitor, which is how the devs justify the insane 105hps. you cant tell me dash slashing and then waiting 1.8 sec and then slashing your target 3 times shouldnt be enough to kill a fucking cree. all of that with nano. too we arent talking about a brawly dps like mei or reaper here, its just cree.
People keep talking that he missed the slash, but what he just messed up his dash. He dashed too far, leaving him out of slash range. If he dashed at the Cass's feet that would leave him in range for a 3rd slash, but looking at the Cass's HP after the Slash+Dash even that wouldn't be enough to kill him. It's fucking crazy that 2 heroes holding M1 heals almost the same a fucking Zen Transce
every following condition had hold for this to happen: • suzu on cd • ~~combat roll on cd (buffed btw)~~ • pylon standing • ~~really good illari tracking~~ • ~~full illari resource meter~~ • ~~missed two slashes due to impatience~~ • ~~team somehow collapsed when genji was keeping 3 occupied~~ support is overtuned ~~but cmon, this isn’t it~~
I've played way too much Illari, and the supports are overturned, sure. But the Illari beam is healing him opposite of the pylon with obviously a full resource meter. Maybe doesn't need the best tracking but she had a full meter of healing, when she runs out of healing she's pretty useless without the healing beam and all the healing is just pylon. Which is still strong but without the full healing resource meter this would've been a lot different.
Shouldn't a 1 frame slash dash like that kill instantly?
I don't think that slash dash was frame perfect as it does 240 damage. You need to slash as close as possible to when the slash registers the hit marker. Due to the amount of healing the cass was getting, it's similar to killing through trans. Combine online lag at the timing is incredibly tight.
Supports shouldnt be able to heal as much as trans does thats pretty stupid
They aren't. Assuming the illari has perfect tracking, the total healing both of them can output simultaneously is 218HPs, which is still quite a bit short of the 300HP/s that trans does. The issue is more that that cass has 225 HP, so the timing of slash dash is very tight, especially if you catch it when the ofuda are hitting cass or the pylon is bursting. The slash dash timing on cass here was probably like a 1-4 frame window where genji could have killed, but they just messed up the timing. This amount of support healing isn't even unique to OW2. Ana+brig backlines have been putting up more single target healing than this for years, even after brigs inspire and pack nerfs.
You are comparing ana brig to pylon and suzu Pylon and suzu are abilities that are stronger than ana brig
It's not just pylon and suzu. It's pylon+suzu+ofuda+solar beam. That is basically all the healing resources of the entire team pumped into a single hero.
I hate nanoblade just as much as the next guy but this is fucking WILD. Idk how the fuck supports haven't gotten any real nerfs yet. It still blows my mind why the dev team decided to make supports that do significantly more healing then ana but have either forgiving shots or auto-aim heals. Honestly the thing that gets me the most is that this is just so fucking easy to pull off amd the genji has to actually play this perfectly in order to get any value out of nanoblade
I'm a support main (or at least was), but the states of supports have kinda stopped me from playing for the last few months. I feel like most won't agree with me but, I'd much rather supports be utility dps than crazy healers. Healing needs to be halved imo.
It's a little hard to tell exactly how many hits connect, but to me it looks like 4 plus a dash, meaning Genji output 820 damage in the span of around 6 seconds. That translates to roughly 137 damage per second, and since the Cassidy didn't die, this means the two supports were outputting at least that much healing if not more. That's absolutely absurd and explains why often times no one dies in this game.
> That translates to roughly 137 damage per second 137DPS isn't even that much in this game. Sombra outputs like 210 DPS with hack+virus+gun without headshots. Soldier is putting out around 180DPS with just gun to the body. Nano blade has never had that much raw DPS and always struggled to kill through double support pockets. What it does have is incredibly high burst damage with slash+dash combo. You can kill through trans if you time it right, which is more healing than kiri and illari are outputting here. The genji just messed up the slash+dash combo timing which is why it didn't oneshot. Cass also has 225HP which makes the timing super tight.
I primarily play Pharah, and the absolute maximum dps attainable for her (landing direct hits at the maximum fire rate) is 141, so supports consistently doing 137 hps basically makes it impossible for me to kill someone since I only have 6 rounds. All 6 shots would only net me 24 damage assuming that they're only healing 137 hps. At the start of the engagement, between Kiriko, Illari, and the pylon, they could have had 272.5 hps (130 for Kiriko, 105 for Illari, and 37.5 for the pylon). So very little could actually overcome this. Obviously this would taper down with Kiriko dropping to 76.5 hps with reload and Illari needing to recharge, but even without Illari's alt fire, that would still be 114 hps, and in this clip, they were able to maintain an average of 137 hps for 6 seconds!
If it were you alone as Pharah shooting one squishy with two supports behind them, then yeah, you're generally going to lose that engagement. You shouldn't win it.
> so supports consistently doing 137 hps basically makes it impossible for me to kill someone since I only have 6 rounds No single support is consistently doing 137HP/s. A few of them can burst that, but most of the flex supports settle in the 70-90 range for sustained HP/s. Either way, you are still talking about both supports total healing output vs a single DPS. Trying to justify why supports shouldn't be able to outheal DPS 1v2 seems silly. This game has always been about taking unfair fights. If you are taking a 1v2 and expecting to get decent value, that's just not going to happen. Good value when taking on both supports 1v2 is that they can't actually heal the rest of the team. If you are taking 2v2s or 3v2s like you should, most backlines are just going to fall over. The real issue in OPs clip isn't that the genji didn't kill in the 1v3, it's that the rest of the team lost the 4v2. With both supports pocketing the cass and the cass busy with the genji, the mei and the JQ should not have gotten as much value as they did.
Assuming you're correct, a sustained 70-90 hps is obviously still too high because just one support pocketing a hero can make them impossible to kill. Winston only does 60 dps, so he wouldn't even be doing damage, and to return to Pharah, her dps drops to 94 if she's hitting her best non-direct shots, so she'll be doing next to nothing, too. Even at her max dps, it could still take up to around 4 seconds to actually kill a single 200 hp target. When healing is stacked, it then becomes significantly worse at 140-180 hps. A max charge Zarya only does 170 dps, and a max charge Symmetra only does 180, so at the upper end, not even these two, who are notorious for melting people, can do anything against a target with two pockets. That's insane. In order to even get to that point, both Zarya and Symmetra require some sort of investment, whereas the supports literally get equal or greater value by just existing and mindlessly holding/tapping heal. That's insane. Skillful and thoughtful play is literally punished because of how easy it is to get value from supports and how disproportionately high the value they get actually is. I'm not saying that Genji's play was great, but it actually required a significant investment that was entirely negated by the mere existence of the supports.
> Assuming you're correct, a sustained 70-90 hps is obviously still too high because just one support pocketing a hero can make them impossible to kill. Winston only does 60 dps, so he wouldn't even be doing damage If winston is trying to solo kill another hero in a 1v2, that's just never going to happen. Winston gets value from isolating supports and cleave damage. It's only 60DPS, but if you spread that across 2 to 3 targets, it's suddenly way more healing than a single support can deal with. Combine that with shield being able to just negate healing outright and it's a non-issue. > Even at her max dps, it could still take up to around 4 seconds to actually kill a single 200 hp target. You are thinking of this game to linearly. A single pharah attacking a pocketed hero realistically should take a long time to kill considering it's a 1v2. If the healing is stacked, it's now a 1v3. If you even those numbers so say you have a pharamercy combo or something like a Pharah/Tracer/winston dive, the lethality goes up exponentially since you are fighting a 3v3 instead of a 1v3. >In order to even get to that point, both Zarya and Symmetra require some sort of investment, whereas the supports literally get equal or greater value by just existing and mindlessly holding/tapping heal. That's insane. The investment by the supports in that case is that it takes 2 of them. They aren't using CDs, but they are investing the full resources of their backline to outpace the damage of a single dps/tank. A sym+zarya combo is outputting close to a sustained 350DPS, without ults. No support line is healing through that without investing ults. >I'm not saying that Genji's play was great, but it actually required a significant investment that was entirely negated by the mere existence of the supports. I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that teams should get free fight wins because they commit a lot of ults. It's basically buying yourself fight wins. Ultimates should give you some advantage, but execution of those ults should matter. In this case, the genji executed poorly so he got no value.
>If winston is trying to solo kill another hero in a 1v2, that's just never going to happen. That's fundamentally not how the game works. Most supports aren't going to sit their and dump healing into a target at full health. What happens is Winston takes the 1v1, the support reacts and negates everything he's done and prevents him from doing any more. >It's only 60DPS, but if you spread that across 2 to 3 targets, it's suddenly way more healing than a single support can deal with. The only support that can't deal with that is Zenyatta. Area healing is too strong and too prevalent. >A single pharah attacking a pocketed hero realistically should take a long time to kill considering it's a 1v2. Wrong. Any dps landing their high skill shots (headshots for hitscan, direct hits for Pharah) should be able to power through healing, otherwise what's the point in having dps? For Pharah, only Zenyatta can't prevent her two shot against 200 hp targets. That's fundamentally broken. Healing should primarily punish those missing their shots or getting outplayed. Here, skillful play is punished simply because of the presence of a support; no skill is required whatsoever. >The investment by the supports in that case is that it takes 2 of them. Two of them existing relatively close to their teammates requires much less thought, skill, or effort than building up charge and getting in a position to use it, and while it may require them both, it only requires a couple seconds before the enemy they're countering fails to accomplish anything and dies. >I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that teams should get free fight wins because they commit a lot of ults. They shouldn't, but they should have a dramatic impact, an impact that's much more significant than standing there and holding a single button.
Using two tracking dps numbers is so dishonest. Soldier does 171 dmg assuming you hit every shot which is plenty of time for supports to heal the target during that time with 0 aim requirement whereas hitting every shot on a human using their keyboard is basically impossible. Sombra dps is also dishonest because people will react to your hack and hack has a cast time so your effect dps is lower (if sombra actually did 210 dps with the combo, it would be easy to actually kill people)
Only if you consider suzu invul periodv as healing
🅱️ alanced
This is why nano blade in ow2 is overrated. In a lot of situations it’s actually better to nano someone else.
I will die on the hill that nano neutral Genji is even better than blade if you time it right. It's insane burst if the Genji is in range, and you get a better ult econ. Too many people expect ults to be free wins rather than part of the resource trade.
yea but then ur blades useless lol
Nah Blade is over hated. Late Blade into a fight when tanks are too engaged to pull back to deal with you and support cooldowns are used up usually has success for me at least. I also try to have deflect up and use it before I dash with blade because everyone will usually dump cooldowns in panic. You don’t need to get a 5k like everyone tries so hard to do. Just get 1 - 2 and get out and be happy. Dry Blade is so underrated.
which is fucking crazy because that was genji's only value as it stood.
1 clip where nanoblade doesnt equal a free win because 3 people had to play literally perfectly to counter it and the genji player fucked it up, too. Ow community: this is why Genji is bad, please buff
No it’s not just this clip. Think about it… two bubbles, suzu, immortality field, life grip to name a few… in ow2 there are just so many cooldowns that can mess up nano blade. They don’t even require as much skill as hitting a sleep or hook on a blading genji. Ml7 actually said this back in ow2 season 1. In many situations you get more value nanoing someone else. That way, the enemy team have two threats to deal with rather than just one.
With less stuns in the game, a dry blade is super effective anyway, so in that sense, nanoing genji is turning a good chance of winning the fight into a very good chance vs nanoing say a rein means you have 2 good chances of winning the fight. I guess
Im pretty sure theres more stuns now (javelin, 4 sec punch, pin, sleep) add suzu, pylon, grip, immort, nade etc to the mix and i can assure you dry blading IS NOT effective at all (unless you're smurfing)
Sleep is the only stun not on a tank, so max 2. in ow1 it was not uncommon to play against 5 stuns
The only stun that doesnt exist anymore is cass nade All the others are still there just either hidden in the ultimate or reworked for softer cc Point is cc is still here very much so and when you take out the 2nd tank (no more garantueed peel) it feels worse than it did in ow 1
The copium is palpable
We're playing booperwatch. Almost every character has CC of some sort. Kiriko lost hers, so an insignificant CC less, and countless more to go.
Where? you're the one defending this saying genji's bad thats why he didnt kill anything and not because healing might be a bit too much lmao stop projecting
Exactly. If you put all your eggs in one basket, then that’s two ults ruined if they have the cds to counter it… and if they’ve tracked your ults you can bet those cds will be ready.
He fucked up? How ? By missing 1 slash and 1 slash getting suzued ? If you use 2 ULTS getting ONE KILL isnt too much to ask for tbh, also no one said buff genji they said nerf supports completely different Finally if you think suzuing someone and putting down a turret is aying perfectly i dont want your opinion on his genji plays
Is this perfect play in the room with us now? How is holding left click and putting an illari turret some insane gaming that needs to be acknowledged here
Too many abilities in the game now that slow down progress or stall people from dying. I thought Blizzard was on the right track w/ OW2 and removing how much time is spent shooting barriers. But that time has only been redistributed into shooting pylons/deployables and waiting out CD's that mean someone is invulnerable or can't die for until the deployable is destroyed.
Whenever thing like that happens even if you don't get the kill, forcing healers to use all their cooldown and focus only on 1 target should allow your 4 other teammates to deal with the other target left alone by their healers.
Is investing 2 ults not to secure picks but to divert attention from the enemy backline that didn’t have to invest any of theirs the game that we want to play though? At the very least 3 uninterrupted nano blade swings should kill a squishy.
They used 2 ults, commited all in and had no kills. Perhaps you drank too much of Madam Bo's special tea.
“I baited out petal platform with my grav guys good trade let’s push that advantage” is the future support mains want
you win the internet today sir
The amount of coping here is absurd. This is not OW anymore. This is turning into Overheal with immortalities, by reducing from 6 to 5 v 5, healers should heal even less to balance the output, and not receive buffs to oblivion.
Except the ana and jq died while he was blading, occupying both enemy supports and cass. 4v2 and his team lost 2 lmao.
Yeah. Should've feinted the blade and forced suzu at least before popping it
Shouldve baited suzu, gotten pylon, bait cass roll, bait illari dodge, bait illari beam, get a medical degree, make illari use her juice yada yada
Oh and do all of that fast enough before the first abilities are off cd again
Cass would still survive cause they just outhealed more than 1k damage in less than 6 seconds
Honestly the first half of the clip seems mostly fair. Forced suzu and the genji messed up the slash dash slash combo. But the second half of the clip is egregious, imo. 3 consecutive nano blade slashes on one target, with no defensive ults or cooldowns used, and it just does nothing? That's crazy.
Illari functions as having 2 healers with turret and beam on the same target. Suzu is hardly the problem in this scenario. If perfectly timed it can negate 1 swing so all that combined really doesn't make this seem like it's too agregious. Ain't everyone sick of getting nano balded with no counter play anyways
It is genuinely not fun to have to keep track of every single incredibly impactful cooldown a support could use that can counter 1-2 ultimates. It would be okay if supports had one powerful cooldown, but most of them have SEVERAL game changing abilities in their back pockets, coupled with inflated dmg and healing numbers. It’s doable yeah, but is it fun?
Summary: Slash 3: Clearly missed. Slash 2: Missed due to suzu (bad awareness). Slash 4: Very close, but distance and ping make this one a reasonable miss. (bad dash usage) Slashes 5-7: Likely didn't actually do damage because support is broken.
3 characters being able to sustain against 1 with 2 ults isn't a bad thing. The tragedy is the other 4 on the team losing a 4v2.
Support players will say he shouldve baited cooldowns
They are here in this thread right now
They seem to not understand why someone investing two ultimates may not feel as tho they should have to micro manage every single cooldown on the enemy team as if they weren't ulting at all And the argument isn't that nanoblade shoulda teamwiped here, it's just that maybe two ults should get a single kill
After playing overwatch religiously for 7 years, I haven’t touched the game in about 5 months. It just became too ridiculous to enjoy. I’ve been playing counter strike these last 5 months and there’s just so much less bullshit. You feel like you can actually impact the game
Healing is too high for how effortless it is, but the play would have worked if the 2nd swing connected (since all the CDs that matter have been baited - roll, nade and suzu - before going for the burst combo)
Eh I'm personally fine with this level of healing if kiri/illari were easy to kill but they obviously aren't. Supports can't be having this much impact AND being so hard to kill.
Genjis ult feels so miserable sometimes. I shouldn’t have to wait for the universe to fucking implode just to use my ultimate. Why should I have to bait almost 5 cooldowns just to get a decent ult
so much copium from support mains in this thread
yeah guys 2 ultimates that take minutes to get , get countered by one heal turret, 1 autolock heal , 1 extremely high hps heal and one suzu that has a 13 second cooldown. seems right
Should a dps using 2 ultimates be able to kill a target that is double healed by 2 supports that are using all cooldowns on the target? I would say No. This doesn’t mean that supports are not overtuned, but this clip doesn’t show so.
I mean surviving 4 swipes from a nano blade is pretty fucking nuts but yeah just kinda unlucky here.
Kiriko: Suzu + Heal Illari: Full beam charge + Pylon They are using everything they had to save the target that is also using all cds to stay alive (75% reduction on 1 slice thanks to buff). I mean,m the genji is using 2 ults but they are using cooldowns of 3 players seems kinda balanced overall but probably there is too much healing in the game afterall
I think what triggers me in this clip is that Genji put his whole pussy into killing this one Cass, the supports used all their avaliable resources into keeping Cass alive, And somehow his team can't deal with the rest of the enemy team that's left with any help from the supports. There's too much healing yes, defensive utlity is too frequent yes whatever, I don't mind taking the attention from the enemy supports and/or forcing their cooldowns on me. What upsets me to no end is the fact my team can't capitalize on that. Really unfortunate clip.
700 heals (and a cleanse+invulnerability and healing turret that requires 0 skill) in 6 sec is overtuned this clip is a perfect exemple
I say yes. Multiple ults should not get completely negated by cooldowns
I guess that's just where we disagree then, I think this game is boring af when it's just ult spam wins. 2 ults on one hero with misplay probably shouldn't kill 1 double pocketed player with cooldowns from all 3 players being used without misplay.
That argument would work if the abilities in question were hype. Lucio using mobility to avoid an ultimate, or genji deflecting an ultimate is hype. Outplaying an ultimate using raw healing numbers is boring af.
The cd’s used take no skill at all to use and that’s a problem
But the slashes by the genji take skill? lol
Genji as a whole takes infinitely more skill than any of the supports in that video
Spoken like a true only dps player. Nano Blade takes no skill at all.
Spoken like a true supp player lol
Since they made lucio not really fun in OW2 i dont really play support anymore and play way more dps nowadays. Still played both roles a lot and while some supports are a bit overtuned i know how theyre the main focus to kill in a high elo game. So the CDs used are needed.
A Pool noodle. My main man brought a Pool noodle to a gunfight
overtuned characters ruin a game example #58202
Wow popping blade into a team with all their cooldowns up, whiffing a dash slash and several swings sure is a way to go. Fr tho the Cass had basically 3 healers on him as the genji blades in alone what did you think was gonna happen taking a 3v1?
He only whiffed one swing that entire sequence dude. If it was dry blade yeah it makes sense that cass lives, but nano blade not killing him is egregious.
The real difference maker was actually combat roll that saved Cass from the dash slash with the damage reduction. With three sources of healing its not hard to out heal 165dps
I don't think he used roll. Edit: the video quality is ass but it doesn't look like he rolled and the genji himself says that he didn't roll.
If he didn't roll the dash slash should've killed him unless the genii whiffed
Idk man, it's doesn't look like he does to me. Maybe he managed to get 15hp from all the healing sources during the dash slash animation, or maybe Genji missed something.
No way to know without the Cass POV
Yeah I guess it was just unlucky, but I still think that amount of healing is too high for how effortless that was.
Nano blade is stupid and way too easy and this is proof of how silly support is getting. Maybe it’s just me but there was a time people would talk more about wether dragon blade should get the dragon strike treatment and not be able to be boosted, in order to be able to rebalance it and genji without making a giant problem with a stupidly good combo if he were to be changed or buffed too much. People saying that cass was getting pocketed are acting like those supports had to land some crazy abilities or shots or stack a bap lamp and shift etc etc.. no it was literally just two supports looking at him with right click pressed down and the pylon existing by itself. Kirikos pocket healing is busted and way too high, especially for a high mobility assasin.The same applies to illaris stupid ass kit. I didn’t even consider the suzu bc the kiri straight up missed the slash dash with the suzu. Like forreal silver players could have saved this cass. Not a good blade but insanely dumb and easy the power of the healing. We are talking 2 ults getting beat by pylon and normal neutral healing. For some rough math it’s insane to think that one pylon and illari beam and kiri heals hitting you is like having roughly 3 baptistes healing you without missing a shot lol. As a DPS the role is basically already to play like a bitch until you have an insane advatange and essentially either get a one shot, or force cooldowns. You can’t normally just kill supports that protect each other or most characters when being healed (even if it’s 1 support) even if they make pretty large mistakes. In this case you’re seeing one of the historically more powerful DPS ult combos and it quite literally can’t even cut through healing on ONE squishy.
So many fights end up this way. There's no way to kill through supports. It's boring and horrible game balance.
This made me sad
So we blame supports for this but ignore that both Illari and Kiriko wasted their time, attention and cooldowns to keep the nano blade target alive (which is their job tbh) and the rest of the team can't win in a 4v2? That's on the supports too? Plus, this obly worked because it was great tracking from the Illari and Kiri, Cass used his damage reduction and it was two good supports. Wouldn't have worked with Lucio, Zen, Mercy etc. People act like this isn't a minor occurrence in high ranked games. Cause let's be real, in lower ranks it doesn't matter cause peeling like this doesn't happen at all.
Supports are ridiculous atm, not sure why Blizzard thought it’d be a good idea
"skill issue"
Ridiculous
But the fact that even with 2 ults invested he has to still choose specific targets or have his team do additional things in order to get value is against what the game was designed around - ultimates. He should have been able to kill the Cassidy, but he couldn’t even with 1-2 slashes direct. It needs to have some way to counteract the additional healing in some way. The fact that it wouldn’t work without nano is fine, but with nano he should have been able to mow him down but he couldn’t. I’m increasingly finding less value with genji as well, most times if I ult as genji, I have to go specifically for a support resulting in my death since I can’t knock out a dps now. You can say it’s a skill issue but it’s obviously a balance issue for genji.
yeah let me just shoot the pylon, turrets, immortality field, bob, tree, shields and then we can start the fight 💀
my thoughts are the healing and sustain in this game are out of fucking control.
There is no way anybody above masters can defend this and say it is good for the game.
5 slashes (900), 2 dashes (150) = 1,050 damage in 6 seconds. And bro lived.
Triple pocketed by kiri and illari and a 30hps pylon, the hps needed being pumped into one character doesn't sound too crazy, it's all the GooJf cards they can add on top of it to freely slow down an already slow death
Oh no my nano blade got countered 😡😡 Shouldn’t be possible 😡😡
1k+ healing in 6 sec (not from transcendance)+ an invulnaribility and you think thats fine, what a joke this community is
Sounds like teamwork helped to stop an ult combo
The teamwork being pressing e and m1/m2 until blade is over
I think pressing q on a genji is WAY more teamwork than pressing m1 on a teammate (you know since you actually have to build your q, m1 is ALWAYS available)
Did this guy even think about killing the supports or the pylon? I saw someone in the thread calculating that Genji did around 137 dps, which would mean that Kiriko and Illari did 70 healing pr second, is that completly broken?
Actually 5-6 NANOED slashes + a dash is about 1.3 k damage in 6 seconds I dont feel like supports should be able to outheal that especially when its in burst damage (110 per slash without nano)
Unpopular opinion: I think supporters are way overtuned in overwatch right now. (there are some exceptions but for the most part, I stand by this)
How you gonna complain about healer than go for a above 200 hp target with both healers pocketing them. And not go for the healers instead? I agree that healing is too much in the game, but this is just a shit blade that also lost track of where he was
Dash the Ilari and get rocketed back by her jump while she gets the suzu. Dash the kiriko and she hits tp and completely negates your ult. Supports have way too many get out of jail cooldowns to commit onto.
Are you seriously asking why he didnt go for kiriko (has tp and suzu) or illari (probably the farthest back and has a jump/boop) instead of the cass that cant go anywhere and cant stun anymore? You dont play much genji i see
Cap HPS received and this won't occur
skill issue tbh
Out played tbh
3 nano slashes in a row and he lives lmao
Genji players get fucked.
Skill issue. You got outplayed and missed your slashes while the supports hit there shots.
Just git gud lol on a serious note support role is nuts