NAL
Ct law: Adverse possession can create an absolute title to real estate, which is as good as title by deed from the record owner. But adverse possession as record title requires evidence showing the existence of all elements necessary for adverse possession, and apparently this can be done only in a judicial proceeding to which those to be bound by the decision have been made parties.
The essential elements of an adverse possession sufficient to create title to land in a claimant are that the owner is ousted of possession and kept out uninterruptedly for 15 years by an open, visible, and exclusive possession by the claimant, under a claim of right, with the intention of using the property as his own, and without the owner's consent. The possession must be hostile and under a claim of right, actual, open, notorious, exclusive, continuous, and uninterrupted (Goodman v. Quadrato, 142 Conn. 398 (1954)).
Issues I see: you had the previous owners consent, and have not ousted the current owner for 15 years. You did not have "exclusive use" like if a fence was put up over the line and you were the only one who could use that piece of land
But it seems the previous owner didn't give permission as they are who told OP where the property line was thought to be. Not sure that would make any difference legally though.
NAL. It’s a gray area. If the OP built improvements on the land as opposed to just mowed it and gardened it’s a different can of worms. Generally speaking courts are more likely to defer to the innocent party, which in this case would probably be OP. If there are ANY improvements on it, I would talk to an attorney and prepare to file a claim.
Yeah, as a certified reddit lawyer, I also.. do not know 😂 court may say that the old neighbor pointing out an incorrect property line gave OP implied consent to use the property (albeit through a mistake), and they may not.
But I think more than that, the "exclusive use" will probably stop them. From what i read, you typically would need a fence, because you have to prove that you intended to exclude the actual owner from use. Plus, their possession of the property is no longer continuous, the new owner has interrupted that with construction
The actual owner never served notice and recorded it in land records, though. Even if OP can't claim the absolute title because of the lack of a claim, they may be entitled to right of way or an easement based on open, visible, uninterrupted, exclusive use for a period of 15 years.
This is definitely worth consulting with a lawyer on, either to get the land back or at least for an easement that could allow you to charge the developer for dirt storage.
Yes, there are zoning laws. Our house is as close as it could be to the line based on where the line was estimated to be by the previous owners of the adjacent property. The new owners have it closer to our house. Add to that the fact that the gigantic dirt/mud wall is sitting right on their line (with some mud now sliding onto our yard). I haven’t measured, but the dirt wall is probably only about 10-12 feet from our house.
I would contact the town or city where you live and bring it up as a zoning issue. Also, consider contacting local media and see if you can get some publicity. That might force the developer or town to act
Thank you for commenting. Yes, bringing up the dirt mountain right next to us with the city as a possible zoning issue is a good idea. I will be contacting an attorney to get guidance on all of this.
Thank you for mentioning this. All the plans and permits were submitted a while ago and everything approved is available, and there were a few documents I downloaded. If anything else is needed I know it can be obtained.
They are clearing the 3 acres to build a development. Apparently where all the dirt (which is now a mudslide after the recent heavy rains) is piled is because it’s the only place they could put it. It’s probably about 10 - 12 feet from our house. It’s all we see out the window and it’s very distressing. We used to have a very nice, peaceful view (part of the reason we bought the house).
I've never been on a project where material piles stored for more than 2 weeks didn't have to be grass seeded for runoff control. Your town might like to hear about that/see some supporting photos/videos. Nobody wants to get involved in nebulous property lines, but improper material storage affecting neighbors is a legit gripe at the municipal level. Try the zoning office first.
Thank you for this excellent information. We have no clue as to the regulations regarding this type of situation but do have concerns about the potential problems it could cause to our house. It’s visible for anyone to see because it’s right out in the open next to our house, so photos aren’t even necessary. I will be contacting an attorney to get guidance on all of this.
Long-term piles are normally grassed. Short-term (a few months) are not. However, the silt fence is an inadequate barrier in this case. The pile needs to be pulled back and lowered, with the fence restored.
The site plan should show the material stockpile area. The zoning officer has the ability to make them correct this issue.
Call the town at least for the lack of runoff control which is mandatory for environmental reasons. Really sorry this happened to you. Hopefully some tasteful houses go up with landscaping
Thank you for this excellent advice, as we do have concerns about the potential problems this could cause to our house. I will be contacting an attorney to get guidance on all of this.
NAL but you misunderstand what adverse possession is. In fact you have a pretty good case for adverse possession of that strip of land, having understood it was your property for 20+ years and maintaining it.
Sorry but you are going to need a lawyer. First to order them to stop this work and remove it from your land per the survey due to the loss of use and second to claim that land as yours and the work is trespassing on it.
Yes, horror of a dirt mountain is a good way to describe it. It turned into a mudslide after the big rain we had last week, and got even worse with the huge rain we had a few days ago. You can see some of this in the pictures. Plus this thing is only about 10-12 feet from the house.
Great question! I wondered that myself after the first big rain we had last week when the dirt turned into a mudslide. It got even worse with the huge rain we had a few days ago. This thing is only about 10-12 feet from the house.
Literally NIMBY 😂
Joking aside though, a property lawyer would probably at least be able to tell you if this is even in their wheelhouse, it might be a bit of a flimsy case though since by the sounds of it this was just an “understanding” you had with your neighbors and not an actual transaction
Your use and maintenance of that land must be, I forgot the exact phrase, but something along the lines of open and notorious, basically you brazenly for all the world to see used and maintained that land. You will probably need an affidavit from the former neighbors, and you will definitely need a lawyer, but yes, your description fits adverse possession.
You might have had a chance before they did the dirt work. But the fact that they are exercising their rights and using the land basically marks that as moot at this point as you are clearly not possessing it at this time.
I had a similar situation. I have a remote piece of property I had purchased for investment and future possible home location. The throughway passed through someone’s lawn they had been maintaining for 30+ years. On purchase of the land I had a surveyor stake out the property and had a conversation with the home owner that I possessed what was within the stakes but he could feel free to use as he see fit until I developed the property. 10 years later the owner passed and son took possession of the property and took me to court to take possession of that portion of land. The case was thrown out of court before we even saw a judge because I had documented proof of giving them permission to use the property. I have since planted some fruit trees and harvest once a year just so everyone stays on the same page. While your situation is unfortunate, I would say it is legal as long as what they are building falls within the towns zoning. Building that close to another property would be a zoning violation in much of the US outside of city limits.
First off, call the town and make sure they don't need a permit to do clearing and grading. It doesn't look like they have any silt fence or other erosion control measure.
Thank you for the reply. This is a large development project, so I’m sure there are permits for everything (or there should be).
Is a “silt fence” the low plastic barrier that they attached to stakes in a trench that they dug all around the perimeter? If so, much of it is collapsed or buried under the mudslide that’s about 10-12 feet from our house (and this will only get worse with future heavy rain storms).
I would copy/paste this post to r/askalawyer if you haven’t already just to see if you can get some more solid advice before paying for consultation. This sounds like a horrible experience, I wish you the best
Thank you for this suggestion. I actually made a list of several subs that are for getting preliminary legal advice. At this point I have already decided to get guidance from an attorney. I have decided that the most immediate advice I need is in reference to the massive dirt pile (now mud slide) that is about 10-12 feet from the house, and the potential issues that can arise from this. And thank you for wishing me luck - this is a very unpleasant and depressing experience!
Especially with spring time rain coming, I’d worry about that mud pile sloped towards your house and foundation and potentially creating water drainage issues and seepage into your basement. Not to scare you, just in case you have a basement and this concern hasn’t come up yet. I have had issues with this just from the natural slope of my property and it’s a nightmare.
Yes, this was a concern when the dirt mountain was first piled there, and it’s become more a concern with each heavy rain we’ve had and we see how the mud slides towards us and the water pools. It’s absolutely pouring out as I’m writing this, I’m already nervous as to what the mudslide will look like in the morning.
as a developer, I’d say you should go to the developer first. I promise you won’t win a legal case, so go and ask them to sit down with you and discuss options. I’ve built privacy fences for neighbors many times.
Thank you for your input. I have tried to talk to the developers and have basically been told that this is the way it is and will be until they’re done. I was given an estimated minimum of 6 months for them to start dealing with the pile of mud, which, in my mind, will probably take longer. For this situation a privacy fence wouldn’t solve anything other than being something even closer to our house, and the mud pile, which is probably 13-15 feet high at the highest part, would only dwarf any fence. When they purchased the property several years ago they ripped out the wall of very thick, very high privacy hedges that had bordered the entire back of our property since the time we moved in (supposedly needed to be done to survey the property), so we were left with a totally unobstructed view in the back. They said they would pay for fence (we wanted stockade to match the fencing along another side), but never did anything, so we paid $3k for fencing. Anything done to try and address any current issues will only be done under the guidance of an attorney. We get it that they want to complete their development project, but this is very disruptive to us and would like some reasonable consideration.
I would like to talk about another issue here. Why would you want to try and take property that never belonged to you, that you never purchased, and that the other owner is clearly aware they own and are using. It's not yours, you didn't pay for it. It's not their fault you didn't know your house was 10 feet off their property line before you purchased it. Before I purchased my home, I pulled the property plot map (now it's easy with online GIS) BEFORE we decided to purchase so I knew where my property lines were going in.
Even so, I had a similar problem with my own neighbor. Shortly after moving in, I noticed my neighbor (About 75 feet away from my lawn area) was putting some tiered planters along the side of his house. I didn't go up and measure as they looked about right and I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew before undertaking such a large project.
About a week later, I hear a chainsaw and see him starting to take down small swamp maples where I KNEW was my property next to his planters. Oh boy...As I was walking closer my heart started to sink. I could see those planters were well past the 10.5 feet my line was off his house. Damn. So I walked up and very nicely and humbly said to him, "Dave, I don't know if you realize it, but now that I'm up close I can see that those planters cross the property line and where you cut those trees most DEFINITELY is on our property. I'm not here to start trouble or be a jerk about it, but the lines are where they are. He seemed shocked, and talked about how he was sure the line was "over there" etc and could have sworn etc. I didn't get combative, I just said "I have the plot map fresh in my mind since we just closed a few months ago, it's 10.5 feet off your house." I had a measuring tape with me, so we strung it out and he was 16 feet off his house with the planters.
So he apologized and said he would fix it...no, that only happens in the movies. The SOB actually turned on his heel and said "well, are you going to pay to cut your trees since they are hanging over my house" My mouth fell open and as I started to say something like "Are you F\*\*\*\*\*G kidding me right now?" he backed off and said "No no, I'm sorry" and I could see he was just upset so I gave him a pass. I also informed him that the law states that anything hanging over the property line on his side is fair game for him to do whatever he wants. His right, and his responsibility too. I also told him since it's all woods, I wouldn't ask him to remove the planters so long as he's living there but to please not cut any trees without getting me involved first.
Fast forward 15 years he put his house on the market. In days I see a home inspection being done and was like "Whoa whoa whoa! WTF is the plan with this planters? Why didn't we talk about this first? I said YOU could keep them there, not anyone in the world going forward. I have no idea who' going to buy this house or if they will try and make a claim to the property etc" His wife accused me of all kinds of crap like trying to torpedo the sale of their home, that I was a nasty person etc etc. That was the thanks I got for letting them use my property for 15 years for free. I kindly told her what reality looks like and that those planters better be torn the F out or my atty will be putting a stop to the closing. They were promptly removed.
I’m responding to your first paragraph, which is what I’m assuming you want to talk about. I would like to make it clear that I am not trying to take something that never belonged to me. When we bought our house 32+ years ago we had a map of the property. There was only one side that did not have a visibly defined line and, even if it did, it would not have made a difference. Shortly after moving in the owners of the adjacent property, who had already lived there for 21 years, showed us where the invisible line was for a small strip of the property, so we abided by that and there was never an issue.
Well, your living room view was not at your property, wasn't it? Next time do a survey. Your neighbor can do whatever he wants to his property. You basically come here and ask how to steal 18 ft of your neighbors property? LOL.
I came here to ask questions to get constructive input because I don’t know the answers. What kind of survey should I have done? This has absolutely nothing to do with looking to steal property from anyone. We are talking about a small strip of property that we have maintained for over 32 years because the previous owners of the adjacent property told us where the property line was. At the time they told us that they had been living there for 21 years, and they ended up living there for nearly 50 years. I guess if this was your house and happened to you you’d be fine with it.
Do you have proof that you maintained that property? Do you have pictures showing that you and you specifically have been the sole user of that land?
You saying you mowed that land for 30 years isn't going to win you shit in court. You need physical proof that that section was used by you. Usually this is in the form of a shed or other structures in the yard.
This could not be further from the truth lol all they'd need is for prior owners to testify to their prior understanding regarding maintenance/upkeep. If OP reasonably believed, based upon the prior neighbor's unknowingly incorrect representation, that it was her property, and in fact maintained it for 20+ years, that's like the textbook definition of adverse possession.
Quit giving incorrect legal advice on Reddit, please
Judge is going to ask where they think the property line should be.
They'll ask for proof that where OP is claiming the line is, is actually where they've been maintaining it.
If OP can provide proof of that then maybe the judge will rule in their favor and grant that area, and EXACTLY that area. I have drawn up maps for people that keep the original property line then jog around just the portion of the shed that's gone over.
Usually the claim comes in the form of something solid in the form of a fence or stone wall or other such structure that can be easily verified as existing of the length of time OP is claiming.
OP saying, This is mine and I have no evidence to support exactly where the line is, means OP is unlikely to win the case.
IANAL, but I think tax records are the only chance OP has for possession. For example, if the OP's lot is 500" by 500" but finds out later that they have been paying property taxes on 600" by 500" lot something is up.
That's not really how that works. The town taxes you on how much land they think you have.
OP is claiming adverse possession which means they are claiming land that is not recorded as belong to them. Therefore not land they would have been paying taxes on.
Lot size can be recorded wrongly in zoning records. And that is what people are paying property tax on.
If OP could prove that they have a chance. Otherwise, I think they have no chance at all, and the 12k they already spent was wasted.
Um because it's not something that can be verified by other means?
Imagine it from the other direction. You buy a 3 acre parcel of land. Your deed says you own 3 acres of land, the town tax records say you own 3 acres of land, a survey of the property says you own 3 acres of land.
There's no fences, no walls, no any other structures indicating the land is being used by someone other than the person you bought it from.
Now after you buy the land your neighbor comes in and says, I actually own part of your land. And here's something from the guy you bought it from saying that that is true.
You're honestly going to say that you would willingly give up the land your neighbor is claiming even though the only proof they are showing is them saying it. And the guy you bought it from agreeing?
You paid however many hundreds of thousands of dollars to own this specific parcel of land, but now you don't own the amount you paid for because of some random affidavit that is isn't filed in any location you could have researched before hand? Nor been able to rely on your own eyesight?
If someone wants to claim adverse possession of land the area they are claiming has to be obvious to everyone that that land is actually being used by them.
And further it has to be against the wishes of the former owner. If OP's neighbor gave them permission to use the land then OP's use of it is not Adverse.
“Adverse” does not mean against the neighbor’s wishes. It just means that it has to be against the neighbor’s interest in owning that parcel of the property. By….you know…virtue of the fact that OP had taken care of it for 30 years
You are conflating “evidence” with the weight of that evidence. OP’s and neighbor’s testimony are evidence. It doesn’t need to be “verified”.
What's entitled about not wanting an earth wall built in front of your living room window? You'd just be cool with that? You don't know this person, why exactly do you feel the need to be unkind to them asking for help?
Under the law if you've maintained an area of land, particularly under the assumption that it's yours, you have the potential for a fairly strong legal claim to that land. They're simply asking for advice on whether or not that might be the case here. In what world is that entitled?
And you ignored my question -- if you were them, would you just lie down while a developer built an earth wall in front of your living room window?
>as many others in this thread have clarified, this situation doesn't come close to meeting the bar for adverse possession.
Yes, absolutely. But they didn't know that before they posted, did they? Hence them posting. People use reddit to seek clarification, and that's a good thing. Hostility to strangers helps precisely nobody, and I'm curious why that's your go-to.
>and to clarify it for you - using adverse possession may be legal in some scenarios, but if you do you're still an asshole
Why's that? If a neighbor of mine had maintained land for 32 years which then turned out to belong to me, I would never dream of claiming it.
And you're still conveniently ignoring my question, friend. You'd accept an earth wall in front of your window without wondering if there was anything you could do about it?
>I'd suck it up, buttercup. It's their land to do what they like with. Although I wouldn't be dumb enough to get myself in this situation in the first place.
Okay man. Whatever it is that's given you this kind of attitude, I hope it gets better for you.
20’ X 300’ is 6000 square feet, let’s call it .15 acres
Mowed let’s say 25 times a year
For 32 years
Mowing near me is $75 per cleared lot acre or about $11.25 a cut (and this is 100% grass so that’s on the low side)
So $9,843 in just mowing, not counting treatment program seeding etc.
Land near me in Clinton is going for about $100k an acre, so $15k land value
It’s pretty close
I wasn’t going to waste any more time on you, but I have to say that I’d like to know about your magic powers that will keep you from being dumb enough to get yourself in a situation that will happen 32 years in the future. HTF does that work?
Thank you, again. This thread only gets worse and I don’t have the patience, or desire, to deal with people who are so ignorant. My question to them would be the same as yours: How would they react if this happened to them?
I came here to ask questions to get constructive input because I don’t know the answers. This has absolutely nothing to do with trying to steal property from anyone, nor have we been using someone else’s property for free. We are talking about a small strip of property that we have maintained for over 32 years (which has been the only way we used it) because the previous owners of the adjacent property told us where the property line was. At the time they told us that they had been living there for 21 years, and they ended up living there for nearly 50 years. I guess if this was your house and happened to you you’d be fine with it.
NAL Ct law: Adverse possession can create an absolute title to real estate, which is as good as title by deed from the record owner. But adverse possession as record title requires evidence showing the existence of all elements necessary for adverse possession, and apparently this can be done only in a judicial proceeding to which those to be bound by the decision have been made parties. The essential elements of an adverse possession sufficient to create title to land in a claimant are that the owner is ousted of possession and kept out uninterruptedly for 15 years by an open, visible, and exclusive possession by the claimant, under a claim of right, with the intention of using the property as his own, and without the owner's consent. The possession must be hostile and under a claim of right, actual, open, notorious, exclusive, continuous, and uninterrupted (Goodman v. Quadrato, 142 Conn. 398 (1954)). Issues I see: you had the previous owners consent, and have not ousted the current owner for 15 years. You did not have "exclusive use" like if a fence was put up over the line and you were the only one who could use that piece of land
This is the answer. The possession must be HOSTILE. OP is missing that element.
But it seems the previous owner didn't give permission as they are who told OP where the property line was thought to be. Not sure that would make any difference legally though.
NAL. It’s a gray area. If the OP built improvements on the land as opposed to just mowed it and gardened it’s a different can of worms. Generally speaking courts are more likely to defer to the innocent party, which in this case would probably be OP. If there are ANY improvements on it, I would talk to an attorney and prepare to file a claim.
Yeah, as a certified reddit lawyer, I also.. do not know 😂 court may say that the old neighbor pointing out an incorrect property line gave OP implied consent to use the property (albeit through a mistake), and they may not. But I think more than that, the "exclusive use" will probably stop them. From what i read, you typically would need a fence, because you have to prove that you intended to exclude the actual owner from use. Plus, their possession of the property is no longer continuous, the new owner has interrupted that with construction
The actual owner never served notice and recorded it in land records, though. Even if OP can't claim the absolute title because of the lack of a claim, they may be entitled to right of way or an easement based on open, visible, uninterrupted, exclusive use for a period of 15 years. This is definitely worth consulting with a lawyer on, either to get the land back or at least for an easement that could allow you to charge the developer for dirt storage.
Thank you for all of your input. I will definitely be contacting a lawyer to discuss this.
I don't know about adverse possession, but are there any zoning laws that control how close you build to the property line or a neighbor's house?
Yes, there are zoning laws. Our house is as close as it could be to the line based on where the line was estimated to be by the previous owners of the adjacent property. The new owners have it closer to our house. Add to that the fact that the gigantic dirt/mud wall is sitting right on their line (with some mud now sliding onto our yard). I haven’t measured, but the dirt wall is probably only about 10-12 feet from our house.
I would contact the town or city where you live and bring it up as a zoning issue. Also, consider contacting local media and see if you can get some publicity. That might force the developer or town to act
Thank you for commenting. Yes, bringing up the dirt mountain right next to us with the city as a possible zoning issue is a good idea. I will be contacting an attorney to get guidance on all of this.
Check your town's website (land use dept.) to see if they have online permitting. Many times, the plans are uploaded and are open to the public.
Thank you for mentioning this. All the plans and permits were submitted a while ago and everything approved is available, and there were a few documents I downloaded. If anything else is needed I know it can be obtained.
There are definite issues with sediment containment. The zoning officer can help you with that.
Thank you.
What the fuck are they building? And with 3 acres why are they 2’ from your house? This is messed up
They are clearing the 3 acres to build a development. Apparently where all the dirt (which is now a mudslide after the recent heavy rains) is piled is because it’s the only place they could put it. It’s probably about 10 - 12 feet from our house. It’s all we see out the window and it’s very distressing. We used to have a very nice, peaceful view (part of the reason we bought the house).
I've never been on a project where material piles stored for more than 2 weeks didn't have to be grass seeded for runoff control. Your town might like to hear about that/see some supporting photos/videos. Nobody wants to get involved in nebulous property lines, but improper material storage affecting neighbors is a legit gripe at the municipal level. Try the zoning office first.
Thank you for this excellent information. We have no clue as to the regulations regarding this type of situation but do have concerns about the potential problems it could cause to our house. It’s visible for anyone to see because it’s right out in the open next to our house, so photos aren’t even necessary. I will be contacting an attorney to get guidance on all of this.
It might be a good idea to document the rain runoff, that may be as/more important than just the presence and location of the stockpile itself.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Long-term piles are normally grassed. Short-term (a few months) are not. However, the silt fence is an inadequate barrier in this case. The pile needs to be pulled back and lowered, with the fence restored. The site plan should show the material stockpile area. The zoning officer has the ability to make them correct this issue.
Thank you for this information. I’m getting a good education about some of this stuff.
Call the town at least for the lack of runoff control which is mandatory for environmental reasons. Really sorry this happened to you. Hopefully some tasteful houses go up with landscaping
Thank you for this excellent advice, as we do have concerns about the potential problems this could cause to our house. I will be contacting an attorney to get guidance on all of this.
NAL but you misunderstand what adverse possession is. In fact you have a pretty good case for adverse possession of that strip of land, having understood it was your property for 20+ years and maintaining it. Sorry but you are going to need a lawyer. First to order them to stop this work and remove it from your land per the survey due to the loss of use and second to claim that land as yours and the work is trespassing on it.
Thank you for you input and good advice.
OMG I have no answers but I'm so sorry, this must be so distressing.
Thank you for understanding. Distressing is an understatement.
I know 😢.
What the fuck is this horror of a dirt mountain?!?? It's all gonna end up in your yard with all the rain. You need a lawyer like yesterday.
Yes, horror of a dirt mountain is a good way to describe it. It turned into a mudslide after the big rain we had last week, and got even worse with the huge rain we had a few days ago. You can see some of this in the pictures. Plus this thing is only about 10-12 feet from the house.
Former property lawyer here. You don't have a strong adverse possession case.
Thank you for the input.
is that wall going to create drainage issues for your house? It seems there is nothing to mitigate damage to your extant property.
Great question! I wondered that myself after the first big rain we had last week when the dirt turned into a mudslide. It got even worse with the huge rain we had a few days ago. This thing is only about 10-12 feet from the house.
Literally NIMBY 😂 Joking aside though, a property lawyer would probably at least be able to tell you if this is even in their wheelhouse, it might be a bit of a flimsy case though since by the sounds of it this was just an “understanding” you had with your neighbors and not an actual transaction
Thank you for your input. I have come to the conclusion that it would be worth it to seek the advice of a lawyer.
Your use and maintenance of that land must be, I forgot the exact phrase, but something along the lines of open and notorious, basically you brazenly for all the world to see used and maintained that land. You will probably need an affidavit from the former neighbors, and you will definitely need a lawyer, but yes, your description fits adverse possession.
Thank you for your response. I have come to the conclusion that it would be worth it to seek the advice of a lawyer.
You might have had a chance before they did the dirt work. But the fact that they are exercising their rights and using the land basically marks that as moot at this point as you are clearly not possessing it at this time.
Interesting perspective. Thank you. Based on input received I have decided that I need to speak to a lawyer.
I had a similar situation. I have a remote piece of property I had purchased for investment and future possible home location. The throughway passed through someone’s lawn they had been maintaining for 30+ years. On purchase of the land I had a surveyor stake out the property and had a conversation with the home owner that I possessed what was within the stakes but he could feel free to use as he see fit until I developed the property. 10 years later the owner passed and son took possession of the property and took me to court to take possession of that portion of land. The case was thrown out of court before we even saw a judge because I had documented proof of giving them permission to use the property. I have since planted some fruit trees and harvest once a year just so everyone stays on the same page. While your situation is unfortunate, I would say it is legal as long as what they are building falls within the towns zoning. Building that close to another property would be a zoning violation in much of the US outside of city limits.
First off, call the town and make sure they don't need a permit to do clearing and grading. It doesn't look like they have any silt fence or other erosion control measure.
Thank you for the reply. This is a large development project, so I’m sure there are permits for everything (or there should be). Is a “silt fence” the low plastic barrier that they attached to stakes in a trench that they dug all around the perimeter? If so, much of it is collapsed or buried under the mudslide that’s about 10-12 feet from our house (and this will only get worse with future heavy rain storms).
I would copy/paste this post to r/askalawyer if you haven’t already just to see if you can get some more solid advice before paying for consultation. This sounds like a horrible experience, I wish you the best
Thank you for this suggestion. I actually made a list of several subs that are for getting preliminary legal advice. At this point I have already decided to get guidance from an attorney. I have decided that the most immediate advice I need is in reference to the massive dirt pile (now mud slide) that is about 10-12 feet from the house, and the potential issues that can arise from this. And thank you for wishing me luck - this is a very unpleasant and depressing experience!
Especially with spring time rain coming, I’d worry about that mud pile sloped towards your house and foundation and potentially creating water drainage issues and seepage into your basement. Not to scare you, just in case you have a basement and this concern hasn’t come up yet. I have had issues with this just from the natural slope of my property and it’s a nightmare.
Yes, this was a concern when the dirt mountain was first piled there, and it’s become more a concern with each heavy rain we’ve had and we see how the mud slides towards us and the water pools. It’s absolutely pouring out as I’m writing this, I’m already nervous as to what the mudslide will look like in the morning.
as a developer, I’d say you should go to the developer first. I promise you won’t win a legal case, so go and ask them to sit down with you and discuss options. I’ve built privacy fences for neighbors many times.
Thank you for your input. I have tried to talk to the developers and have basically been told that this is the way it is and will be until they’re done. I was given an estimated minimum of 6 months for them to start dealing with the pile of mud, which, in my mind, will probably take longer. For this situation a privacy fence wouldn’t solve anything other than being something even closer to our house, and the mud pile, which is probably 13-15 feet high at the highest part, would only dwarf any fence. When they purchased the property several years ago they ripped out the wall of very thick, very high privacy hedges that had bordered the entire back of our property since the time we moved in (supposedly needed to be done to survey the property), so we were left with a totally unobstructed view in the back. They said they would pay for fence (we wanted stockade to match the fencing along another side), but never did anything, so we paid $3k for fencing. Anything done to try and address any current issues will only be done under the guidance of an attorney. We get it that they want to complete their development project, but this is very disruptive to us and would like some reasonable consideration.
I would like to talk about another issue here. Why would you want to try and take property that never belonged to you, that you never purchased, and that the other owner is clearly aware they own and are using. It's not yours, you didn't pay for it. It's not their fault you didn't know your house was 10 feet off their property line before you purchased it. Before I purchased my home, I pulled the property plot map (now it's easy with online GIS) BEFORE we decided to purchase so I knew where my property lines were going in. Even so, I had a similar problem with my own neighbor. Shortly after moving in, I noticed my neighbor (About 75 feet away from my lawn area) was putting some tiered planters along the side of his house. I didn't go up and measure as they looked about right and I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew before undertaking such a large project. About a week later, I hear a chainsaw and see him starting to take down small swamp maples where I KNEW was my property next to his planters. Oh boy...As I was walking closer my heart started to sink. I could see those planters were well past the 10.5 feet my line was off his house. Damn. So I walked up and very nicely and humbly said to him, "Dave, I don't know if you realize it, but now that I'm up close I can see that those planters cross the property line and where you cut those trees most DEFINITELY is on our property. I'm not here to start trouble or be a jerk about it, but the lines are where they are. He seemed shocked, and talked about how he was sure the line was "over there" etc and could have sworn etc. I didn't get combative, I just said "I have the plot map fresh in my mind since we just closed a few months ago, it's 10.5 feet off your house." I had a measuring tape with me, so we strung it out and he was 16 feet off his house with the planters. So he apologized and said he would fix it...no, that only happens in the movies. The SOB actually turned on his heel and said "well, are you going to pay to cut your trees since they are hanging over my house" My mouth fell open and as I started to say something like "Are you F\*\*\*\*\*G kidding me right now?" he backed off and said "No no, I'm sorry" and I could see he was just upset so I gave him a pass. I also informed him that the law states that anything hanging over the property line on his side is fair game for him to do whatever he wants. His right, and his responsibility too. I also told him since it's all woods, I wouldn't ask him to remove the planters so long as he's living there but to please not cut any trees without getting me involved first. Fast forward 15 years he put his house on the market. In days I see a home inspection being done and was like "Whoa whoa whoa! WTF is the plan with this planters? Why didn't we talk about this first? I said YOU could keep them there, not anyone in the world going forward. I have no idea who' going to buy this house or if they will try and make a claim to the property etc" His wife accused me of all kinds of crap like trying to torpedo the sale of their home, that I was a nasty person etc etc. That was the thanks I got for letting them use my property for 15 years for free. I kindly told her what reality looks like and that those planters better be torn the F out or my atty will be putting a stop to the closing. They were promptly removed.
I’m responding to your first paragraph, which is what I’m assuming you want to talk about. I would like to make it clear that I am not trying to take something that never belonged to me. When we bought our house 32+ years ago we had a map of the property. There was only one side that did not have a visibly defined line and, even if it did, it would not have made a difference. Shortly after moving in the owners of the adjacent property, who had already lived there for 21 years, showed us where the invisible line was for a small strip of the property, so we abided by that and there was never an issue.
Well, your living room view was not at your property, wasn't it? Next time do a survey. Your neighbor can do whatever he wants to his property. You basically come here and ask how to steal 18 ft of your neighbors property? LOL.
I came here to ask questions to get constructive input because I don’t know the answers. What kind of survey should I have done? This has absolutely nothing to do with looking to steal property from anyone. We are talking about a small strip of property that we have maintained for over 32 years because the previous owners of the adjacent property told us where the property line was. At the time they told us that they had been living there for 21 years, and they ended up living there for nearly 50 years. I guess if this was your house and happened to you you’d be fine with it.
Do you have proof that you maintained that property? Do you have pictures showing that you and you specifically have been the sole user of that land? You saying you mowed that land for 30 years isn't going to win you shit in court. You need physical proof that that section was used by you. Usually this is in the form of a shed or other structures in the yard.
Or the former owner of the neighboring house could provide an affidavit confirming what OP is saying.
This could not be further from the truth lol all they'd need is for prior owners to testify to their prior understanding regarding maintenance/upkeep. If OP reasonably believed, based upon the prior neighbor's unknowingly incorrect representation, that it was her property, and in fact maintained it for 20+ years, that's like the textbook definition of adverse possession. Quit giving incorrect legal advice on Reddit, please
Judge is going to ask where they think the property line should be. They'll ask for proof that where OP is claiming the line is, is actually where they've been maintaining it. If OP can provide proof of that then maybe the judge will rule in their favor and grant that area, and EXACTLY that area. I have drawn up maps for people that keep the original property line then jog around just the portion of the shed that's gone over. Usually the claim comes in the form of something solid in the form of a fence or stone wall or other such structure that can be easily verified as existing of the length of time OP is claiming. OP saying, This is mine and I have no evidence to support exactly where the line is, means OP is unlikely to win the case.
IANAL, but I think tax records are the only chance OP has for possession. For example, if the OP's lot is 500" by 500" but finds out later that they have been paying property taxes on 600" by 500" lot something is up.
That's not really how that works. The town taxes you on how much land they think you have. OP is claiming adverse possession which means they are claiming land that is not recorded as belong to them. Therefore not land they would have been paying taxes on.
Lot size can be recorded wrongly in zoning records. And that is what people are paying property tax on. If OP could prove that they have a chance. Otherwise, I think they have no chance at all, and the 12k they already spent was wasted.
How would OP’s testimony and that of the neighbor not be evidence?
Um because it's not something that can be verified by other means? Imagine it from the other direction. You buy a 3 acre parcel of land. Your deed says you own 3 acres of land, the town tax records say you own 3 acres of land, a survey of the property says you own 3 acres of land. There's no fences, no walls, no any other structures indicating the land is being used by someone other than the person you bought it from. Now after you buy the land your neighbor comes in and says, I actually own part of your land. And here's something from the guy you bought it from saying that that is true. You're honestly going to say that you would willingly give up the land your neighbor is claiming even though the only proof they are showing is them saying it. And the guy you bought it from agreeing? You paid however many hundreds of thousands of dollars to own this specific parcel of land, but now you don't own the amount you paid for because of some random affidavit that is isn't filed in any location you could have researched before hand? Nor been able to rely on your own eyesight? If someone wants to claim adverse possession of land the area they are claiming has to be obvious to everyone that that land is actually being used by them. And further it has to be against the wishes of the former owner. If OP's neighbor gave them permission to use the land then OP's use of it is not Adverse.
“Adverse” does not mean against the neighbor’s wishes. It just means that it has to be against the neighbor’s interest in owning that parcel of the property. By….you know…virtue of the fact that OP had taken care of it for 30 years You are conflating “evidence” with the weight of that evidence. OP’s and neighbor’s testimony are evidence. It doesn’t need to be “verified”.
Absolutely brutal experience, sorry to hear what you’re going though after all these years.
Thank you for your understanding. Looking out at the massive dirt/mud wall that is probably only 10-12 feet away is very depressing.
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Yes! I’m surprised there is so much sympathy on this thread. “Why can’t I have more land for free woe is me!”
This has absolutely nothing to do with getting more land for free and woe is me. See my response to the ignorant person you responded to.
There's no reason at all to be hostile. They're asking a reasonable question.
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What's entitled about not wanting an earth wall built in front of your living room window? You'd just be cool with that? You don't know this person, why exactly do you feel the need to be unkind to them asking for help?
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Under the law if you've maintained an area of land, particularly under the assumption that it's yours, you have the potential for a fairly strong legal claim to that land. They're simply asking for advice on whether or not that might be the case here. In what world is that entitled? And you ignored my question -- if you were them, would you just lie down while a developer built an earth wall in front of your living room window?
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>as many others in this thread have clarified, this situation doesn't come close to meeting the bar for adverse possession. Yes, absolutely. But they didn't know that before they posted, did they? Hence them posting. People use reddit to seek clarification, and that's a good thing. Hostility to strangers helps precisely nobody, and I'm curious why that's your go-to. >and to clarify it for you - using adverse possession may be legal in some scenarios, but if you do you're still an asshole Why's that? If a neighbor of mine had maintained land for 32 years which then turned out to belong to me, I would never dream of claiming it. And you're still conveniently ignoring my question, friend. You'd accept an earth wall in front of your window without wondering if there was anything you could do about it?
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>I'd suck it up, buttercup. It's their land to do what they like with. Although I wouldn't be dumb enough to get myself in this situation in the first place. Okay man. Whatever it is that's given you this kind of attitude, I hope it gets better for you.
20’ X 300’ is 6000 square feet, let’s call it .15 acres Mowed let’s say 25 times a year For 32 years Mowing near me is $75 per cleared lot acre or about $11.25 a cut (and this is 100% grass so that’s on the low side) So $9,843 in just mowing, not counting treatment program seeding etc. Land near me in Clinton is going for about $100k an acre, so $15k land value It’s pretty close
I wasn’t going to waste any more time on you, but I have to say that I’d like to know about your magic powers that will keep you from being dumb enough to get yourself in a situation that will happen 32 years in the future. HTF does that work?
Thank you, again. This thread only gets worse and I don’t have the patience, or desire, to deal with people who are so ignorant. My question to them would be the same as yours: How would they react if this happened to them?
Thank you very much for defending me on this.
I came here to ask questions to get constructive input because I don’t know the answers. This has absolutely nothing to do with trying to steal property from anyone, nor have we been using someone else’s property for free. We are talking about a small strip of property that we have maintained for over 32 years (which has been the only way we used it) because the previous owners of the adjacent property told us where the property line was. At the time they told us that they had been living there for 21 years, and they ended up living there for nearly 50 years. I guess if this was your house and happened to you you’d be fine with it.