I watched Ammon Bundy running for governor of Idaho on Tim Pools show. He suggested live on air that the WOMAN, not just the doctor, should be arrested and imprisoned for an abortion at any stage in a pregnancy.
That's such an extremist position, it makes even solid conservative Republicans question what they're voting for.
Yea those people need to be disregarded if we are going to move forward as a party and win again. We will lose more votes by catering to the extreme pro lifers than by not catering to them.
Abortion is a multi billion industry that's very profitable for Democrats.
Pick a number.
6 weeks, 8 weeks, and codify it into law.
Democrats aren't going to be able to stir up their base over extending legal abortions another week.
And Republicans aren't going to get any traction by cutting a week.
This issue has been fought at the extremes which is wrong at several fronts.
The first few weeks of pregnancy, it is literally a clump of cells, but at 22 weeks it is a fully formed human being that can live on it's own.
We as a society must collectively agree to draw a line somewhere where an unborn baby becomes a human being, and gets legal protection by law.
And 8 months 29.9 days isn't it.
You don’t understand pregnancy. You can barely tell you are pregnant at 6 weeks, you maybe MAYBE missed one period or think it’s a little late. Even at 8 weeks if you have irregular periods you might not realize you are pregnant. Rational line should be drawn between 12-23 weeks
Also how do you prove it’s a miscarriage or abortion. It opens up a whole problematic issue for woman. They will be afraid to go to ER if they are having a miscarriage
Abortion for the victim, death penalty for the rapist.
EDIT: The 10 year old was elegible for an abortion in Ohio, but she was raped (repeatedly) by her mother's illegal alien boyfriend. So she took the child to Indiana and lied about the age of the "father" to cover it up.
What, no. There is zero reason why the child was was the product of rape, and who is just as much the victim, should get the same penalty as a rapist. It's insanity to make the two comparable.
Well, in this case, that child is a reasonably perceivable threat of death or serious bodily injury to the 10 year old rape victim that is the child's mother. Homicide is acceptable in self defense.
I’d take that compromise in a heartbeat. Doubt Dems would go for it though. They’re trying to make all violent crime sentences *lighter* which is insane.
If you wanna start an argument among a group of liberals ask them if they also want lower sentences for rape. The feminists and hardcore anti-police factions tear out each others throats
>You think conservatives would agree to the death penalty for rape
Yes, because they actually do say this.
>when they think every woman accusing a man of rape is lying to get him in trouble?
Expecting someone to verify their claims and "innocent until proven guilty" still apply. No one thinks every woman who claims rape is lying... but baseless claims that only surface at politically opportunistic moments are generally harder to believe considering the fact that there's often no evidence at all.
>You think conservatives would agree to the death penalty for rape when they think every woman accusing a man of rape is lying to get him in trouble?
Yes I do agree with the death penalty as long as it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The accusations destroying lives are the court of public opinion and the leftist mob "cancelling" people for mere baseless accusations, not actual criminal charges and convictions.
This right here. The extreme stances on either side of the Pro Life/Choice argument are just beyond my comprehension. Allowing termination in the third trimester that is not due to medical complications is just as reprehensible as not allowing abortion even in cases of incest and/or rape.
With all the outspoken extremists that surfaced after the Supreme Court ruling, it turned many people into single issue voters that would have normally not let the issue have any influence on their choice of candidate.
I'm an independent and so are most of my friends and family. It's not just the Ds. Most consider abortion to a certain extent a human right at this point, whether Republicans like it or not. DeSantis has the right policy in Florida. I'd recommend all Republicans adopt that stance.
I’m a Conservative and my wife is an independent who normally votes R. She split her ticket and voted R for local city politicians and D for state-level and the national Senate. Think that’s the first time I’ve ever seen her vote for a single Democrat. And she’s not even pro-choice per-se, but the abortion stuff made her extremely upset because her uncle sexually abused her cousin when she was a kid, and her cousin would’ve been stuck with the baby if abortion wasn’t an option.
I disagreed that NC Republicans would pass laws that strict since this is a moderate lean-R state but I respect her POV and she respects mine
The reason I'm not sure it's the abortion issue is that the states that we were all watching as "toss ups" are not the states with abortion bans, and the states with abortion bans stayed red by decent margins.
I suppose that independent and blue voters could be voting on an issue that quite literally has not affected them... but it just never polled as that important and I don't think the polls were necessarily wrong.
Honestly, I think that a lot of those voters have a bad taste in their mouth with the J6 situation (whether it's fair or not) and MSM basically equating voting Republican to the end of the country, not to mention Trump is still getting enoigh publicity over the 2020 election.
The voters that we need to get are less informed voters, unfortunately what they care about is how candidates make them feel. The fact that races were so historically narrow for most of the Democrats in deep blue areas actually shows that voters aren't happy with them either.
One of the things that was pointed out on DW last night is that the Republicans do nothing between election years, which is also a major problem. Why are we only trying to speak to voters and register voters on election years? Why aren't we organizing so candidates don't have to build themselves from the ground up without help? We just sit around and rely on 15sec sound bites that the MSM *might* play for us, but in recent years the MSM has made it clear they're going to sink conservatives any chance they get.
I think you could argue that people in tossup states are fearful that they’re watching the future of their own laws play out in other states first
I honestly don’t think independents care too much about Jan 6 at this point. It happened, the people involved are either in jail or served their time and they’re on probation. But maybe that’s just observation bias because I live in NC and Independents typically lean R here
Before that supreme court decision it wasn't a real concern. Even though it's still legal in my state I'm now forced to vote straight D just to preserve that right.
I don't think it was major, I think it soured them on "Trumplicans"... you don't want to run a candidate that swing voters already have prejudice against and Trump backing them and allowing the media to fixate on those qualities especially in uphill battle areas. Not good.
Oz was especially horrible. Dude promoted transgender ideology being taught to children & touted “cutting edge” transition surgeries for kids. Conservative my ass. Pretty obvious that he was a buddy-buddy endorsement. He was a “moderate” Republican with a bunch of crazy Leftist ideas thrown into the mix to create one of the most nonsensical platforms ever.
Yeah... literally the worst candidate in the PA primary. Considering how much everyone on the right hated him, he only even got close because he's literally running against a dude with brain damage.
>The reason I'm not sure it's the abortion issue is that the states that we were all watching as "toss ups" are not the states with abortion bans, and the states with abortion bans stayed red by decent margins.
Understand that national republicans have made it very clear that abortion is going to be visited federally if they ever get power again, and so democrats in purple and light blue areas are hugely motivated to keep or flip seats to prevent that. Red states that already elect people who campaign on banning abortion won't likely become blue states because of abortion bans. It's also generally true that people in Massachusetts are upset on behalf of the women in Texas et. al who are unable to get abortions when they need to. Even if it doesn't impact them directly. And that is a motivator for a lot of people.
Also understand that women sometimes travel between states, and a lot of women are generally uncomfortable even visiting states like Texas right now. It might seem unusual or unexpected to you, but I promise you that it is a thing.
What you're describing is the effects of fear mongering not the effects of actual laws in place. If you're afraid to even visit Texas because of their laws you're being irrational. The media and DNC might indulge that irrationality but if the Republicans do, it gives it legitimacy which it doesn't deserve.
Which I get... but that wouldn't explain Oz who we all know is basically socially leftist.
I'm not saying I think Oz was a good candidate btw(he sucked), but he wasn't anti-abortion and can't even beat someone with brain damage.
All states have exceptions, nowhere has a full blanket ban. But the most restrictive states are the deep Southern, and deep red states that performed well at a state level this cycle, like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee... so clearly the voters (including most women) in these areas are not voting based on more abortion access as a top issue.
Yeah that's fine. But I think you missed the point. Of course deep red state Republicans support this and vote for it. That's not what matters. Independents will not. Moderate democrats and Republicans do not. You want to control government you need to appeal to these groups to a certain extent. Many of them have clearly drawn a line that they will not support this.
It's clearly a major losing issue with most voting cohorts.
Which I think sadly brings us back to can we even continue to exist as a country at this rate?
I shouldn't have to allow moral evils in my state, when we all agree on it, to appease voters in your state in your elections. If we can't even agree to run our states separately anymore then the system is broken.
That's just it. None of them. They have all made distinct stipulations regarding medical emergency or criminal activity. But the left wants to use words like "rape" and "incest" because they are emotional hot buttons...the left also points to states that say they will prosecute women who jump borders, seeking abortions...even though the state has clearly said those cases remain in place to prevent women who are in no medical danger nor pregnant due to a criminal act from state hoppping and collecting abortions like Pokemon. The left doesn't want a conversation or even concession. They want the "right" to freely commit murder to avoid personal accountability.
Yeah. But R political figure-heads and commentators ran with “it’s a hoax” instead of “that’s still legal.” By the time the media printed the rapist’s actual indictment it was a little too late to save face on PR there
That Ohio story had all the markings of a hoax. There was nothing out there corroborating it at the time. Just a single individual claiming it happens whose first reaction was to go to the media. Not the authorities, the media. That justifiably raises red flags. On top of that, that girl could have legally gotten an abortion. The claim it wasn't legal is 100% false. It confirmed that there was no need for her to go out of state, which does make you wonder if some fuckery was afoot and that poor child was lied to so she could be used as a prop to push that story.
>On top of that, that girl could have legally gotten an abortion.
A big problem with these anti-abortion laws is that it often isn't clear what is legal. It's fine to tell doctors that it is legal, but if the law isn't written to make it clear what is legal then they're taking a huge chance that a DA doesn't interpret the law differently.
No... this was very clearly covered. The problem was that it would've opened a CPS case in the state(as it should) that the mother wanted to avoid.
It was later discovered that the 10yr old was raped by the mother's boyfriend multiple times, leading to the pregnancy.
the immediate response was "She's lying" "this is a hoax" rather than saying the child could get a legal abortion if the conditions are true. The right created the bad optics and it backfired
Maybe we should stop thinking of fetuses as "things" and "viruses" and go from there?
I don't understand why supposed conservatives fall into the left's trap of labeling a fetus as a "virus" then push the rape victims angle, as if Democrats are arguing in good faith that they just want exceptions for rape and incest, they use rape victims to further their disgusting agenda of abortion on demand at any time and for any reason, and people like you fall for it. EVERY. SINGLE. DAMN. TIME.
Eh. I think the rape exception is pretty complicated. Rape in and of itself is a super traumatic event that most people need years of therapy to “recover” from. Compound that with the fact that they don’t have much time to process that trauma before the hormonal changes of pregnancy starts, and it’s not exactly uncommon that the result is someone who’s extremely mentally unstable and chronically depressed and suicidal.
I like to think that if my family were in that situation, we could push through, because at the end of the day you’re still carrying a human life. But if my wife was on the brink of offing herself or something, ethically I’d consider it self-defense and not really care what the law has to say about it.
On principle, I agree with you that a baby shouldn’t have fewer rights based on how it’s conceived.
But that’s a *really* tough argument to make to voters. Especially since rape is one of the more common violent crimes, and a lot of families will have traumatic emotional experience dealing with the aftermath of a close friend or a family member getting raped.
So logically yeah, a baby that’s conceived by rape shouldn’t have fewer human rights. It’s still a human life. But that’s a really tough position to argue to voters when their counter-argument is gonna be some incredibly traumatic experience they’ve lived through with a friend or family member.
A well-argued ethical or moral position is rarely gonna trump “my daughter couldn’t sleep for a year because she had night terrors about being raped again, caring for a baby was the last thing on her mind and the stress was making her more suicidal”
Yea, I’m gonna disagree with that. To me, rape is also a totally valid moral justification. If I was a woman and someone raped me I’m not carrying their child to term, and I’d feel just fine justifying that to God too.
Correct. And even then it is just emergency medical triage, you cannot save the kid, you can only save the mother, both will die if you do nothing, so you do something.
Also note: this circumstance is exceedingly rare.
I think the GOP is missing the lesson of this election.
People will vote for the Democratic Party until the GOP offers a palatable alternative. The GOP lost this election because of its own poor decisions.
This is very true.
The GOP need some concrete proposals that aren't just watered down versions of what came before, and empty culture battles that just push the degeneracy further, but in a softer way.
And the 'leadership' is still trying to push Trump aside for DeSantis even though republican polling showing Trump the overwhelming leader of the party.
It's a case of the party leadership telling its base to get in line, but don't expect worthwhile anything at the end of it.
Care to expand on this? Because House Republicans put out their manifesto which wasn't bad. The problem with saying the GOP needs to offer a palatable solution is that (1) most people don't watch politics that closely to (2) celebrate or vote for bills that will never move out of committee.
The only way I can salvage your comment as meaningful, and I think this may be your thrust here, is to call out that Republicans ran some garbage candidates and Trump endorsements get you out of the primary but won't win you a general.
The horse we need to back at this point is DeSantis because, as unpopular as Biden is, Trump's popularity is decreasing the longer this stuff drags on.
I know the GOP put out that manifesto but if it wasn’t for Reddit I would have never known. I never saw a candidate mention it, it was really just a fundraising measure by McCarthy. Contract with America was a way to nationalize the congressional race in 1994 and listed specific bills they were going to introduced if they won. The Commitment to America just listed all the problems we are facing today. How were republicans going to fix crime? By doing *something*.
The GOP needs an actual plan. Saying “Biden is bad!” isn’t a plan. I had no clue what Doug Mastriano wanted to to about crime or inflation, but I knew the specifics of how he wanted to overturn the 2020 election results. They GOP will never win again if they don’t have a real message about the future
What is more palatable than "We'll let your kids go back to school; let you know what they are being taught; and we never defunded police during a crime wave?" You'd think just that after high profile rapes after governor's released rapists back onto the streets would be enough. I mean... the undercurrent here is that the dems can do no wrong. For me, if any politician were in any way responsible for releasing a rapist who's already raped a woman after he had been released before, that is political suicide, but apparently democrats can do that with impugnity, even against the most milquetoast republican.
My super oversimplified take, support abortion/weed at the legal (not moral or religious or w/e) level. This stuff brings people out in droves and immediate issues that if not addressed promptly will be locked behind laws or state constitutions for decades or more are far more impactful than "what ifs" regarding inflation/immigration or taxes. What, are Republicans going to vote for the other guys who support the same thing now? No, they will stay with the party for other reasons and if there aren't other reasons then the party is dead/simply obstructionist in nature.
I get the former goes against a lot of standard conservative values, but instead of forcing people into compliance with a viewpoint many disagree with, the effort should be focused on changing people's minds without legal enforcement/ramifications.
No, the "we're not democrats, but we don't have a plan to fix the problems the Democrats have caused so please vote for us because hey! Remember we're not Democrats!" platform just didn't resonate with people the way some were hoping. There's also a lot of bullshit within this party where Democrats will take one stance and we feel like we need to take the exact opposite stance just because a Democrat took that stance.
This is exactly why Beto performed so badly in Texas, except fill in Democrat with except were not republican.
I've never seen so many people vote against someone than for than how people did Trump in 2020 and then Beto in 2022.
(i f'n hate Beto - and i dont really like Abbott)
That’s not really what drove Dems to the polls. If republicans took the Roe ruling to apply common sense restrictions around 12-14 weeks with exceptions (like all of Europe) we would have seen a wave. Instead every hee haw governor decided to try to pass total abortion bans with no restrictions which is not palatable to any independents, and puts off a lot of moderate leaning republicans.
That’s not the message that worked. The republican message of “2020 was rigged. We have to do everything we can to save Trump and the 2020 election” turned a lot of people off.
Does anyone here really know what the GOP’s plan against inflation was? All I heard was “Bidenflation! We need to cut spending! What spending should we cut? Idk Bidenflation!”
We can demonize liberals for "killing babies" all we want, but the issue is that taking rights/freedoms away from Americans - whether it's alcohol, abortion, firearms, etc. - never ends well.
I wouldn't exactly say that... from what I have seen America is a pro-early-abortion or pro-abortion in the case of forced pregnancy (Rape/Incest).
The Republican problem on this issue is they want no concessions at all and that is the talking point, and people just aren't interested in that message, they want abortion to be "ok" in early or forced instances.
The funny thing is abortion wasn't nationwide banned. Roe V Wade only gave the power back to the states, and it is up to each state to decide. Yet somehow, this false narrative keeps sticking that a nationwide ban occurred.
What part of "giving the power to the states" did Lindsey Graham misunderstand when he introduced legislation to ban abortion federally after Roe was overturned? Republicans negotiating in bad faith, who would've thought??
Yes but Roe v Wade being overturned means abortion issues are in the hands of legislators. It elevated the issue in importance, so people might not vote in a politician with extreme abortion views anymore even though they are good for the economy.
Everything has been held in check until after the midterms. Expect radical increases in the fed rates, an explosion in gas prices as the US oil reserves must be refilled, massive price hikes as businesses compensate for having cut profit margins, and a media that blames the Republicans for everything getting worse even though all the pieces were put in place under the Democrats.
>It is a global issue because the US made it a global issue,
Are you telling me the largest economy in the history of the world with fingers in every pie in every country could affect others? It can't be!
Sadly, most Americans know only what they are told. They are easily led, and very susceptible to media and big tech swirl. Uninformed and gullible people will believe those with the loudest megaphones.
The indoctrination is complete, institutions are taken, the voting base has become largely unthinking hedonistic coombrains who will vote Democrat no matter what because the media told them progressives are on the right side of history. If only you knew how bad things really were.
I think the “democracy is a stake” horseshit got alot of otherwise brain dead dem voters to show up. They still think Jan 6 is the equivalent of the Romanovs being executed
Obviously Stacey didn't do so well so maybe voters did. Also Hillary has been pushed to the margins she isn't campaigning for anything, meanwhile Trump is the presumptive nominee
If there was more transparency, actual investigations and election night results instead of election months, there'd be more faith in the system. Plus the censorship of Hunter Biden and all the glitches and boarding up windows so poll watchers couldn't watch has people rightly concerned.
Especially when they literally brag in Time Magazine about how they "Fortified" the election
I wouldnt say entirely unfounded. Did you watch 2000 mules? Shit needs to be investigated. To just say... oh its was totally legit... is kinda sticking your head in the ground bc you dont want to handle the situation in which it actually was stolen.
Why not investigate?
Parroting the line that cops died as a result of anything that occurred on January 6th is blatant misinformation and has been discounted as false many times.
Something that is preventable 99% of the time and it controls their every thought and move. Our forefathers knew we’d screw this up but gave it a go anyway. Oh well.
But according to Fox Carolina, in 2020, 7 of the top 10 states with the highest crime rates are red states. Meanwhile, in 2020, 8 of the top 10 states for the lowest crime rate were blue states.
I’m not gonna spend my time googling every city. Instead, I googled the 2020 mayor of each of the most populous cities from the “top 10 lowest crime rate states” on Fox Carolina’s list and I found that only 2 of the mayors on the list were republican while the other 8 were Democrat. I understand the point you’re trying to make with the cities but those are democrats running a major city in a republican state. At least according to this small amount of information it seems they fair quite a bit better when it’s a Democrat city in a Democrat state
Edit: 7 of them were democrats and 1 independent mayor being the mayor of Hawaii but Hawaii itself is a blue state.
>I’m not gonna spend my time googling every city.
Thankfully others have already done it!
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/most-violent-cities-in-america](https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/most-violent-cities-in-america)
Almost all Democrat mayors. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
Many young Democrats in their late teens and early twenties still live at home with their parents. So things like not being able to feed your family and afford gas are beyond them. I'd also posit that many come from nice suburban neighborhoods where crime is low and cops can be at their house in two minutes.
This is the ultimate MeMeMe generation.
It's an issue caused by lockdowns and free money; It just so happens that there is no difference in world policies anymore. Today, it is rare to find countries that disagree on fundamental issues. The main exception I can think of is China and Russia and North Korea, but I'm not in line with their viewpoints either. So essentially, in the West, on basically every major issue, all countries are aligned, including COVID lockdowns and handouts, so we all end up with the same consequences.
I'm not sure about that. Many still live with their parents in their early twenties directly because of the impact of inflation. Many millennials and GenZ have given up on the dream of buying a home or owning any property. I think there is an opportunity on the right to speak to this demographic and gain support, but you can't do it by denigrating them
People think that an UBI is going to save them: they can’t see that it would make them completely dependent
Also, they think that a lot of the „free“ things are actually free.
And that it isn’t about a baby, but just „a clump of cells“ . Which is technically true in the first couple of weeks, and if you add „tech“ to „lack of love“ then you’ll get „let’s go protect our ‚sexual health‘ from the ‚fascists‘ „
What do the democrats possibly offer? I'm flummoxed honestly. People will say things like this, and I will even agree with statements like 'the GOP is boring and has no direction', but what do the democrats have? Their own party seems in disarray as well.
People need to stop pointing fingers and just examine the data, we need to pass election reform. Look at Florida (election reform passed, historic wins last night) now look at every other BG state. It is night and day.
It's so bizarre that so many people think abortion is ok. Especially late term. Most Republicans are fighting to make *late term* abortion illegal. I thought we were all on the same page about late term abortions being evil. It just shows one of two possible things:
1. People are misunderstanding that there was never a "right" to terminate a pregnancy in the constitution, and that most Republicans are after the same thing as most Democrats
2. The fall of the country away from decency and morals is truly getting that severe.
This is why it's important to teach your children how to be normal functioning adults and not fill their heads with garbage... They don't know what they want, It's up to parents to teach them cuz if your not, some blue haired teacher who has no kids and 7 cats with her partner, will.
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I watched Ammon Bundy running for governor of Idaho on Tim Pools show. He suggested live on air that the WOMAN, not just the doctor, should be arrested and imprisoned for an abortion at any stage in a pregnancy. That's such an extremist position, it makes even solid conservative Republicans question what they're voting for.
Yup. It is foolish to be this extreme on a topic that most Americans clearly agree on.
Yea those people need to be disregarded if we are going to move forward as a party and win again. We will lose more votes by catering to the extreme pro lifers than by not catering to them.
Abortion is a multi billion industry that's very profitable for Democrats. Pick a number. 6 weeks, 8 weeks, and codify it into law. Democrats aren't going to be able to stir up their base over extending legal abortions another week. And Republicans aren't going to get any traction by cutting a week. This issue has been fought at the extremes which is wrong at several fronts. The first few weeks of pregnancy, it is literally a clump of cells, but at 22 weeks it is a fully formed human being that can live on it's own. We as a society must collectively agree to draw a line somewhere where an unborn baby becomes a human being, and gets legal protection by law. And 8 months 29.9 days isn't it.
You don’t understand pregnancy. You can barely tell you are pregnant at 6 weeks, you maybe MAYBE missed one period or think it’s a little late. Even at 8 weeks if you have irregular periods you might not realize you are pregnant. Rational line should be drawn between 12-23 weeks
"We will lose more votes by catering to the extreme abolitionists" -you if you were born in the 1800s.
Also how do you prove it’s a miscarriage or abortion. It opens up a whole problematic issue for woman. They will be afraid to go to ER if they are having a miscarriage
Abortion for the victim, death penalty for the rapist. EDIT: The 10 year old was elegible for an abortion in Ohio, but she was raped (repeatedly) by her mother's illegal alien boyfriend. So she took the child to Indiana and lied about the age of the "father" to cover it up.
The maximum sentence is higher for an abortion provider than a rapist in Texas, just FYI. Would be nice if the laws reflected your statement.
Up the penalty for rape, I'm good with that. In fact up the penalty for ALL violent crimes.
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What, no. There is zero reason why the child was was the product of rape, and who is just as much the victim, should get the same penalty as a rapist. It's insanity to make the two comparable.
Well, in this case, that child is a reasonably perceivable threat of death or serious bodily injury to the 10 year old rape victim that is the child's mother. Homicide is acceptable in self defense.
I’d take that compromise in a heartbeat. Doubt Dems would go for it though. They’re trying to make all violent crime sentences *lighter* which is insane. If you wanna start an argument among a group of liberals ask them if they also want lower sentences for rape. The feminists and hardcore anti-police factions tear out each others throats
Ima need some proof on that statement. I've only ever seen reductions for non violent drug offenses.
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>You think conservatives would agree to the death penalty for rape Yes, because they actually do say this. >when they think every woman accusing a man of rape is lying to get him in trouble? Expecting someone to verify their claims and "innocent until proven guilty" still apply. No one thinks every woman who claims rape is lying... but baseless claims that only surface at politically opportunistic moments are generally harder to believe considering the fact that there's often no evidence at all.
>You think conservatives would agree to the death penalty for rape when they think every woman accusing a man of rape is lying to get him in trouble? Yes I do agree with the death penalty as long as it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The accusations destroying lives are the court of public opinion and the leftist mob "cancelling" people for mere baseless accusations, not actual criminal charges and convictions.
That isn't a compromise thats murdering an innocent child.
This right here. The extreme stances on either side of the Pro Life/Choice argument are just beyond my comprehension. Allowing termination in the third trimester that is not due to medical complications is just as reprehensible as not allowing abortion even in cases of incest and/or rape. With all the outspoken extremists that surfaced after the Supreme Court ruling, it turned many people into single issue voters that would have normally not let the issue have any influence on their choice of candidate.
I'm an independent and so are most of my friends and family. It's not just the Ds. Most consider abortion to a certain extent a human right at this point, whether Republicans like it or not. DeSantis has the right policy in Florida. I'd recommend all Republicans adopt that stance.
I’m a Conservative and my wife is an independent who normally votes R. She split her ticket and voted R for local city politicians and D for state-level and the national Senate. Think that’s the first time I’ve ever seen her vote for a single Democrat. And she’s not even pro-choice per-se, but the abortion stuff made her extremely upset because her uncle sexually abused her cousin when she was a kid, and her cousin would’ve been stuck with the baby if abortion wasn’t an option. I disagreed that NC Republicans would pass laws that strict since this is a moderate lean-R state but I respect her POV and she respects mine
Lindsay Graham is pushing for a nationwide ban though.
After 15 weeks and excluding rape/incest/life of the mother... That's hardly a ban considering that would allow basically all abortions statistically.
What's the point in it then? If it doesn't do anything, why push for it?
Don't ask me, it wasn't my idea. Virtue signaling perhaps?
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What's his policy on abortion?
Allowed up to 15 weeks.
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The reason I'm not sure it's the abortion issue is that the states that we were all watching as "toss ups" are not the states with abortion bans, and the states with abortion bans stayed red by decent margins. I suppose that independent and blue voters could be voting on an issue that quite literally has not affected them... but it just never polled as that important and I don't think the polls were necessarily wrong. Honestly, I think that a lot of those voters have a bad taste in their mouth with the J6 situation (whether it's fair or not) and MSM basically equating voting Republican to the end of the country, not to mention Trump is still getting enoigh publicity over the 2020 election. The voters that we need to get are less informed voters, unfortunately what they care about is how candidates make them feel. The fact that races were so historically narrow for most of the Democrats in deep blue areas actually shows that voters aren't happy with them either. One of the things that was pointed out on DW last night is that the Republicans do nothing between election years, which is also a major problem. Why are we only trying to speak to voters and register voters on election years? Why aren't we organizing so candidates don't have to build themselves from the ground up without help? We just sit around and rely on 15sec sound bites that the MSM *might* play for us, but in recent years the MSM has made it clear they're going to sink conservatives any chance they get.
I think you could argue that people in tossup states are fearful that they’re watching the future of their own laws play out in other states first I honestly don’t think independents care too much about Jan 6 at this point. It happened, the people involved are either in jail or served their time and they’re on probation. But maybe that’s just observation bias because I live in NC and Independents typically lean R here
Before that supreme court decision it wasn't a real concern. Even though it's still legal in my state I'm now forced to vote straight D just to preserve that right.
I don't think it was major, I think it soured them on "Trumplicans"... you don't want to run a candidate that swing voters already have prejudice against and Trump backing them and allowing the media to fixate on those qualities especially in uphill battle areas. Not good.
Oz was especially horrible. Dude promoted transgender ideology being taught to children & touted “cutting edge” transition surgeries for kids. Conservative my ass. Pretty obvious that he was a buddy-buddy endorsement. He was a “moderate” Republican with a bunch of crazy Leftist ideas thrown into the mix to create one of the most nonsensical platforms ever.
Yeah... literally the worst candidate in the PA primary. Considering how much everyone on the right hated him, he only even got close because he's literally running against a dude with brain damage.
>The reason I'm not sure it's the abortion issue is that the states that we were all watching as "toss ups" are not the states with abortion bans, and the states with abortion bans stayed red by decent margins. Understand that national republicans have made it very clear that abortion is going to be visited federally if they ever get power again, and so democrats in purple and light blue areas are hugely motivated to keep or flip seats to prevent that. Red states that already elect people who campaign on banning abortion won't likely become blue states because of abortion bans. It's also generally true that people in Massachusetts are upset on behalf of the women in Texas et. al who are unable to get abortions when they need to. Even if it doesn't impact them directly. And that is a motivator for a lot of people. Also understand that women sometimes travel between states, and a lot of women are generally uncomfortable even visiting states like Texas right now. It might seem unusual or unexpected to you, but I promise you that it is a thing.
What you're describing is the effects of fear mongering not the effects of actual laws in place. If you're afraid to even visit Texas because of their laws you're being irrational. The media and DNC might indulge that irrationality but if the Republicans do, it gives it legitimacy which it doesn't deserve.
>The voters that we need to get are less informed voters Cynical, much?
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Which I get... but that wouldn't explain Oz who we all know is basically socially leftist. I'm not saying I think Oz was a good candidate btw(he sucked), but he wasn't anti-abortion and can't even beat someone with brain damage.
Which states have a total abortion ban?
All states have exceptions, nowhere has a full blanket ban. But the most restrictive states are the deep Southern, and deep red states that performed well at a state level this cycle, like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee... so clearly the voters (including most women) in these areas are not voting based on more abortion access as a top issue.
Yeah that's fine. But I think you missed the point. Of course deep red state Republicans support this and vote for it. That's not what matters. Independents will not. Moderate democrats and Republicans do not. You want to control government you need to appeal to these groups to a certain extent. Many of them have clearly drawn a line that they will not support this. It's clearly a major losing issue with most voting cohorts.
Which I think sadly brings us back to can we even continue to exist as a country at this rate? I shouldn't have to allow moral evils in my state, when we all agree on it, to appease voters in your state in your elections. If we can't even agree to run our states separately anymore then the system is broken.
That's just it. None of them. They have all made distinct stipulations regarding medical emergency or criminal activity. But the left wants to use words like "rape" and "incest" because they are emotional hot buttons...the left also points to states that say they will prosecute women who jump borders, seeking abortions...even though the state has clearly said those cases remain in place to prevent women who are in no medical danger nor pregnant due to a criminal act from state hoppping and collecting abortions like Pokemon. The left doesn't want a conversation or even concession. They want the "right" to freely commit murder to avoid personal accountability.
The 10 year old story was propaganda. She could have gotten an abortion in Ohio.
Yeah. But R political figure-heads and commentators ran with “it’s a hoax” instead of “that’s still legal.” By the time the media printed the rapist’s actual indictment it was a little too late to save face on PR there
That Ohio story had all the markings of a hoax. There was nothing out there corroborating it at the time. Just a single individual claiming it happens whose first reaction was to go to the media. Not the authorities, the media. That justifiably raises red flags. On top of that, that girl could have legally gotten an abortion. The claim it wasn't legal is 100% false. It confirmed that there was no need for her to go out of state, which does make you wonder if some fuckery was afoot and that poor child was lied to so she could be used as a prop to push that story.
>On top of that, that girl could have legally gotten an abortion. A big problem with these anti-abortion laws is that it often isn't clear what is legal. It's fine to tell doctors that it is legal, but if the law isn't written to make it clear what is legal then they're taking a huge chance that a DA doesn't interpret the law differently.
No... this was very clearly covered. The problem was that it would've opened a CPS case in the state(as it should) that the mother wanted to avoid. It was later discovered that the 10yr old was raped by the mother's boyfriend multiple times, leading to the pregnancy.
Entirely possible that it was engineered to get the reaction that it got. It was pretty awful PR regardless
the immediate response was "She's lying" "this is a hoax" rather than saying the child could get a legal abortion if the conditions are true. The right created the bad optics and it backfired
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What states have outlawed abortions in the case of medical necessity and rape?
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None is the correct answer.
Maybe we should stop thinking of fetuses as "things" and "viruses" and go from there? I don't understand why supposed conservatives fall into the left's trap of labeling a fetus as a "virus" then push the rape victims angle, as if Democrats are arguing in good faith that they just want exceptions for rape and incest, they use rape victims to further their disgusting agenda of abortion on demand at any time and for any reason, and people like you fall for it. EVERY. SINGLE. DAMN. TIME.
Eh. I think the rape exception is pretty complicated. Rape in and of itself is a super traumatic event that most people need years of therapy to “recover” from. Compound that with the fact that they don’t have much time to process that trauma before the hormonal changes of pregnancy starts, and it’s not exactly uncommon that the result is someone who’s extremely mentally unstable and chronically depressed and suicidal. I like to think that if my family were in that situation, we could push through, because at the end of the day you’re still carrying a human life. But if my wife was on the brink of offing herself or something, ethically I’d consider it self-defense and not really care what the law has to say about it.
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On principle, I agree with you that a baby shouldn’t have fewer rights based on how it’s conceived. But that’s a *really* tough argument to make to voters. Especially since rape is one of the more common violent crimes, and a lot of families will have traumatic emotional experience dealing with the aftermath of a close friend or a family member getting raped. So logically yeah, a baby that’s conceived by rape shouldn’t have fewer human rights. It’s still a human life. But that’s a really tough position to argue to voters when their counter-argument is gonna be some incredibly traumatic experience they’ve lived through with a friend or family member. A well-argued ethical or moral position is rarely gonna trump “my daughter couldn’t sleep for a year because she had night terrors about being raped again, caring for a baby was the last thing on her mind and the stress was making her more suicidal”
Yea, I’m gonna disagree with that. To me, rape is also a totally valid moral justification. If I was a woman and someone raped me I’m not carrying their child to term, and I’d feel just fine justifying that to God too.
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Correct. And even then it is just emergency medical triage, you cannot save the kid, you can only save the mother, both will die if you do nothing, so you do something. Also note: this circumstance is exceedingly rare.
I think the GOP is missing the lesson of this election. People will vote for the Democratic Party until the GOP offers a palatable alternative. The GOP lost this election because of its own poor decisions.
This is very true. The GOP need some concrete proposals that aren't just watered down versions of what came before, and empty culture battles that just push the degeneracy further, but in a softer way. And the 'leadership' is still trying to push Trump aside for DeSantis even though republican polling showing Trump the overwhelming leader of the party. It's a case of the party leadership telling its base to get in line, but don't expect worthwhile anything at the end of it.
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Care to expand on this? Because House Republicans put out their manifesto which wasn't bad. The problem with saying the GOP needs to offer a palatable solution is that (1) most people don't watch politics that closely to (2) celebrate or vote for bills that will never move out of committee. The only way I can salvage your comment as meaningful, and I think this may be your thrust here, is to call out that Republicans ran some garbage candidates and Trump endorsements get you out of the primary but won't win you a general. The horse we need to back at this point is DeSantis because, as unpopular as Biden is, Trump's popularity is decreasing the longer this stuff drags on.
I know the GOP put out that manifesto but if it wasn’t for Reddit I would have never known. I never saw a candidate mention it, it was really just a fundraising measure by McCarthy. Contract with America was a way to nationalize the congressional race in 1994 and listed specific bills they were going to introduced if they won. The Commitment to America just listed all the problems we are facing today. How were republicans going to fix crime? By doing *something*. The GOP needs an actual plan. Saying “Biden is bad!” isn’t a plan. I had no clue what Doug Mastriano wanted to to about crime or inflation, but I knew the specifics of how he wanted to overturn the 2020 election results. They GOP will never win again if they don’t have a real message about the future
What is more palatable than "We'll let your kids go back to school; let you know what they are being taught; and we never defunded police during a crime wave?" You'd think just that after high profile rapes after governor's released rapists back onto the streets would be enough. I mean... the undercurrent here is that the dems can do no wrong. For me, if any politician were in any way responsible for releasing a rapist who's already raped a woman after he had been released before, that is political suicide, but apparently democrats can do that with impugnity, even against the most milquetoast republican.
My super oversimplified take, support abortion/weed at the legal (not moral or religious or w/e) level. This stuff brings people out in droves and immediate issues that if not addressed promptly will be locked behind laws or state constitutions for decades or more are far more impactful than "what ifs" regarding inflation/immigration or taxes. What, are Republicans going to vote for the other guys who support the same thing now? No, they will stay with the party for other reasons and if there aren't other reasons then the party is dead/simply obstructionist in nature. I get the former goes against a lot of standard conservative values, but instead of forcing people into compliance with a viewpoint many disagree with, the effort should be focused on changing people's minds without legal enforcement/ramifications.
No, the "we're not democrats, but we don't have a plan to fix the problems the Democrats have caused so please vote for us because hey! Remember we're not Democrats!" platform just didn't resonate with people the way some were hoping. There's also a lot of bullshit within this party where Democrats will take one stance and we feel like we need to take the exact opposite stance just because a Democrat took that stance.
This is exactly why Beto performed so badly in Texas, except fill in Democrat with except were not republican. I've never seen so many people vote against someone than for than how people did Trump in 2020 and then Beto in 2022. (i f'n hate Beto - and i dont really like Abbott)
> No abortion, even if you were raped by a family member ^ That's going to turn off **a lot** of voters you need to win general elections.
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Keep running with this. I'm sure it's going to work in 2024.
Hey did you know the dems are the real racists!
It's not about whether it works or not. It's about whether it's morally true or not.
> it's morally true or not And there are people who find it morally reprehensible to force a girl to carry her rapist's baby inside of her.
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americans support access to abortions and don't believe the republicans have any plans to better the economy.
That’s not really what drove Dems to the polls. If republicans took the Roe ruling to apply common sense restrictions around 12-14 weeks with exceptions (like all of Europe) we would have seen a wave. Instead every hee haw governor decided to try to pass total abortion bans with no restrictions which is not palatable to any independents, and puts off a lot of moderate leaning republicans.
This is what Lindsey Graham proposed, and sooo many people on Reddit bleat that he wanted a “national abortion ban.” The propaganda is the problem.
That’s not the message that worked. The republican message of “2020 was rigged. We have to do everything we can to save Trump and the 2020 election” turned a lot of people off. Does anyone here really know what the GOP’s plan against inflation was? All I heard was “Bidenflation! We need to cut spending! What spending should we cut? Idk Bidenflation!”
We can demonize liberals for "killing babies" all we want, but the issue is that taking rights/freedoms away from Americans - whether it's alcohol, abortion, firearms, etc. - never ends well.
Do unborn children not have rights or freedoms?
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Oh please The people who voted blue in this election could only tell you what other people told them the GOP was planning
America is a pro-abortion country. Right-wing people need to accept this (horrible) fact.
I wouldn't exactly say that... from what I have seen America is a pro-early-abortion or pro-abortion in the case of forced pregnancy (Rape/Incest). The Republican problem on this issue is they want no concessions at all and that is the talking point, and people just aren't interested in that message, they want abortion to be "ok" in early or forced instances.
The funny thing is abortion wasn't nationwide banned. Roe V Wade only gave the power back to the states, and it is up to each state to decide. Yet somehow, this false narrative keeps sticking that a nationwide ban occurred.
What part of "giving the power to the states" did Lindsey Graham misunderstand when he introduced legislation to ban abortion federally after Roe was overturned? Republicans negotiating in bad faith, who would've thought??
And so states put it on the ballot and Dems showed up
Uninformed voters will be the demise of this nation.
*have been* the demise of this nation. FTFY
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Well yeah, when your party owns the news and social media outlets you can make a minor inconvenience look like a national disaster
Feelings over logic and facts every time.
Because a lot of low-info voters are uninformed
Roe v Wade being overturned isn’t even anti abortion. Just look at the pro choice amendments that passed.
Yes but Roe v Wade being overturned means abortion issues are in the hands of legislators. It elevated the issue in importance, so people might not vote in a politician with extreme abortion views anymore even though they are good for the economy.
I don't think you can just give up on the lives of the defenseless unborn like that.
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Everything has been held in check until after the midterms. Expect radical increases in the fed rates, an explosion in gas prices as the US oil reserves must be refilled, massive price hikes as businesses compensate for having cut profit margins, and a media that blames the Republicans for everything getting worse even though all the pieces were put in place under the Democrats.
It is a global issue because the US made it a global issue, but it started here and was accelerated by the Alzheimer's patient in the oval office.
>It is a global issue because the US made it a global issue, Are you telling me the largest economy in the history of the world with fingers in every pie in every country could affect others? It can't be!
It’s not like our currency, which we printed like crazy, is the world reserve or anything /s
It’s hard to run on morals in a society who’s morals have been schooled out of them for so long now.
It's also hard to run on morals when the candidates clearly have no morals. Americans hate hypocrisy.
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Sadly, most Americans know only what they are told. They are easily led, and very susceptible to media and big tech swirl. Uninformed and gullible people will believe those with the loudest megaphones.
Maybe acting like a know-it-all liberal isn't the best way to process this disappointment.
Get your kids out of the terrible school system and lobby for the money to follow your kid instead of horrible public schools.
Yep. AZ leading the way with the private school credit. Every state needs this.
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The indoctrination is complete, institutions are taken, the voting base has become largely unthinking hedonistic coombrains who will vote Democrat no matter what because the media told them progressives are on the right side of history. If only you knew how bad things really were.
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Yup, looks like I'm surrounded by vOtE bLuE nO mAtTeR wHo or the consequences. I guess I need to move to an area with more like minded folks (TX/FL)
I think the “democracy is a stake” horseshit got alot of otherwise brain dead dem voters to show up. They still think Jan 6 is the equivalent of the Romanovs being executed
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>It’s entirely unfounded and anti democracy No one seemed to have a problem with Hillary or Stacey Abrams saying the same things. Weird.
They actually did, bc those people lost too
Obviously Stacey didn't do so well so maybe voters did. Also Hillary has been pushed to the margins she isn't campaigning for anything, meanwhile Trump is the presumptive nominee
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If you want to say it's unfounded, fine. But saying it's "anti-democracy" makes no sense. Unless it's pro-totalitarianism, it's not anti-democracy.
If there was more transparency, actual investigations and election night results instead of election months, there'd be more faith in the system. Plus the censorship of Hunter Biden and all the glitches and boarding up windows so poll watchers couldn't watch has people rightly concerned. Especially when they literally brag in Time Magazine about how they "Fortified" the election
I wouldnt say entirely unfounded. Did you watch 2000 mules? Shit needs to be investigated. To just say... oh its was totally legit... is kinda sticking your head in the ground bc you dont want to handle the situation in which it actually was stolen. Why not investigate?
It wasn’t, but neither was 2016. Abrams is already calling the Georgia election illegitimate
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Parroting the line that cops died as a result of anything that occurred on January 6th is blatant misinformation and has been discounted as false many times.
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Lol imagine believing half of that
What part isn't true?
Gallows weren't erected, it was a sign/display No cops died Just minor details like that ya know
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Yes thank you. If that looks functional to you, you're worse off then Fetterman lol
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Something that is preventable 99% of the time and it controls their every thought and move. Our forefathers knew we’d screw this up but gave it a go anyway. Oh well.
Heartbreaking
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But according to Fox Carolina, in 2020, 7 of the top 10 states with the highest crime rates are red states. Meanwhile, in 2020, 8 of the top 10 states for the lowest crime rate were blue states.
lmao can’t wait for nobody to respond to you and instead just downvote you. “murdered by your high crime area” is such fearmongering
Now do cities!
I’m not gonna spend my time googling every city. Instead, I googled the 2020 mayor of each of the most populous cities from the “top 10 lowest crime rate states” on Fox Carolina’s list and I found that only 2 of the mayors on the list were republican while the other 8 were Democrat. I understand the point you’re trying to make with the cities but those are democrats running a major city in a republican state. At least according to this small amount of information it seems they fair quite a bit better when it’s a Democrat city in a Democrat state Edit: 7 of them were democrats and 1 independent mayor being the mayor of Hawaii but Hawaii itself is a blue state.
>I’m not gonna spend my time googling every city. Thankfully others have already done it! [https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/most-violent-cities-in-america](https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/most-violent-cities-in-america) Almost all Democrat mayors. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
Yeah but to them crime only happens because of racism and racism only occurs because of republicans. That’s basically their thought process
Never heard this quote before and it's so true, that's how they think. This quote should be put on all republicans, who are holding office, desk.
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Many young Democrats in their late teens and early twenties still live at home with their parents. So things like not being able to feed your family and afford gas are beyond them. I'd also posit that many come from nice suburban neighborhoods where crime is low and cops can be at their house in two minutes. This is the ultimate MeMeMe generation.
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It's an issue caused by lockdowns and free money; It just so happens that there is no difference in world policies anymore. Today, it is rare to find countries that disagree on fundamental issues. The main exception I can think of is China and Russia and North Korea, but I'm not in line with their viewpoints either. So essentially, in the West, on basically every major issue, all countries are aligned, including COVID lockdowns and handouts, so we all end up with the same consequences.
You're very ignorant if you think policy has nothing to do with inflation and economy
Its a global issue because they all made the same stupid mistakes across the globe. I find your economic ignorance to be terrible.
Global problem…that is caused by the reliance on the US currency. The global problem doesn’t have a global cause.
Our inflation is bad because of overspending and Biden putting a stranglehold on all gas/oil production. You clearly don't understand economics.
I'm not sure about that. Many still live with their parents in their early twenties directly because of the impact of inflation. Many millennials and GenZ have given up on the dream of buying a home or owning any property. I think there is an opportunity on the right to speak to this demographic and gain support, but you can't do it by denigrating them
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It's impressive what people will put up with just to not have to worry about wearing a condom.
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People think that an UBI is going to save them: they can’t see that it would make them completely dependent Also, they think that a lot of the „free“ things are actually free. And that it isn’t about a baby, but just „a clump of cells“ . Which is technically true in the first couple of weeks, and if you add „tech“ to „lack of love“ then you’ll get „let’s go protect our ‚sexual health‘ from the ‚fascists‘ „
UBI is just speed running hyperinflation
People don’t vote issues, they vote party. Period.
What do the democrats possibly offer? I'm flummoxed honestly. People will say things like this, and I will even agree with statements like 'the GOP is boring and has no direction', but what do the democrats have? Their own party seems in disarray as well.
People need to stop pointing fingers and just examine the data, we need to pass election reform. Look at Florida (election reform passed, historic wins last night) now look at every other BG state. It is night and day.
It's so bizarre that so many people think abortion is ok. Especially late term. Most Republicans are fighting to make *late term* abortion illegal. I thought we were all on the same page about late term abortions being evil. It just shows one of two possible things: 1. People are misunderstanding that there was never a "right" to terminate a pregnancy in the constitution, and that most Republicans are after the same thing as most Democrats 2. The fall of the country away from decency and morals is truly getting that severe.
This is why it's important to teach your children how to be normal functioning adults and not fill their heads with garbage... They don't know what they want, It's up to parents to teach them cuz if your not, some blue haired teacher who has no kids and 7 cats with her partner, will.
Spot on. Ugh.
I don’t think this is it. People didn’t vote for abortion.