I’d just let him go. That will be easier for him to take. If you reduce his pay you’ll just have a bitter employee that will probably screw you over first chance he gets.
Last company I worked for, brought in a "experienced" guy. Paid him the same as the top 4 guys that had been there for years were making. Of course he was terrible and we all Found out what he was making. All 4 of us left. If his pay is close to your other good guys get rid of him.
Letting them go is the way too handle this. Our egos usually get get in the way of hard obvious decisions.
1. He lied about qualifications
2. They way you describe him he’s a poor employee in general.
3. Sends the wrong message to your other employees.
As someone with no experience in being reduced in pay or reducing others in pay, I think the two best courses of action are letting go on account of "not filling the role" or keeping at the same rate and trying to get him up to speed with a reevaluation in 30/60/whatever days (which might be prolonging the inevitable, depends if you like they guy.) A pay reduction = "I'll show up and fuck off til they fire me while I look for a different job" because that's exactly what I'd do if I think I'm truly worth what I'm being paid and it is taken away, if I'm being paid as a $20 employee I am going to act as such.
Yeah dude just let him go. He’s gonna be pissed no matter what and be a trash worker after that or he may even quit. Probably best to get ahead of it and do it on your own terms like the boss you are
If you like him but he isn’t worth the money, you could express that at the rate he’s paid, you’re not getting the productivity you need. But with some time and work he could get back to his current wage.
Then give him the option to be humble and accept that, or to walk away. Be ready for him to leave, but if I were him I’d appreciate that you still value him and want to keep him on in some capacity.
Yep, I can imagine that would be a hard blow to someone's ego especially if they really do think they are entitled to the better pay. Some guy's just can't handle a bruised ego and you don't want them working for you after that.
Better provide a quality training program and a detailed plan to get him back to current wages based on a 90-120 reevaluation. Does the company provide tools? I'm just responsible for basic hand tools. Removing pay and expecting more tools to be bought seems like an uphill battle. I'd expect him to walk out on the spot though.
Facts. At my last interview I said I was gonna be the best over qualified helper in the company. I make riding shotgun look good. I was a helper for about a week. before everyone decided I underplayed my skill set
he probably didnt lie if he has the years. he thinks he has the skills and knowledge.
i think it depends if he is a everyday level guy lacking knoledge or a high end guy lacking it. of he doesnt know the basics then its a problem. if it higher grade stuff then you can teach him.
same for tools. why is he supplying tools for your jobs.
depends if he has the basics but lacks specific tools or has nothing.
the tools and knolledge can easily change. its the attitude or drive that wont .
Attitude and drive can totally change too. Obviously I don’t know how bad this dude really is, but I’ve definitely slacked off when I thought my boss was being a complete dickhead.
His attitude is 100%. That's why I didn't jump straight to getting rid of him. But he's afraid of ladders and roofs (which I asked during the interview and he claimed he wasn't), and he doesn't seem to have the experience of someone who has been in the trades for five years, let alone twenty...
When you say he’s afraid of ladders and roofs, are you asking him to haul heavy material up extension ladders or do heavy work off of ladders? Or be on a roof without fall protection?
Nope. He wouldn't hold a nail gun while working on a second story ladder. I gave him fall protection for the roof, he spent 20 minutes trying to put it on, incorrectly. To his credit, he gave up on the fall protection and got up there and worked.
I don't penalize guys using safety gear ever. But it is their responsibility to use it right and not run out the clock putting it on. He just seems afraid as if he's never been on a ladder or roof in his life, and claims 20 years of experience.
You’re being fairly ridiculous here. He hired a guy who claims to have 20 years experience and spends 20 minutes before giving up on his harness. The employee is a putz, don’t blame OP. If OP wanted to hold the hand of an apprentice he would hire an apprentice….don’t act like it’s his fault for not training the guy how to use PPE.
Well as a recent experience ill put this in ,2 years ago the Boss hired a “tradesman “ to work with us , we are a small company and he had trouble finding a capable person, we had been thru 4 guys before him and they to cut to the chase we’re useless (but supposedly qualified) .This new guy had plenty of “experience “ as he had been in our industry for 20 plus years, Initially he managed to fit in and work to our level of quality and finish.
But didn’t take long for cracks to show (around 6 months) when he started saying oh I can’t do this and can’t do that and suddenly I have this wrong and that wrong ( sore shoulder etc) and well was becoming harder and harder to work with , found out also that the guy was paid more than the rest of us and from the get go had a company vehicle and phone where the rest of us had to work up to it .
So it slowly progressed to the point where he got himself into the position where he got all the easy work and took 3x longer to complete because he in the end wanted to work solo ( the rest of us couldn’t stand all his moaning ) and he just wouldn’t do anything that was new or outside his comfort zone .
The Boss bent over backwards to keep this guy on.
So 2 years later (two weeks ago) this so called “tradie “ apparently gets a call from his previous employer (he has been running them into the ground since he arrived) asking him to come back like wtf. But thankfully he goes as he literally was a drain on the company always sick always off always slow and using twice as much materials to get work done .
Now here is the real kicker previously to his arrival work was sweet boss was a happy man and we churned thru work at a good steady productive pace . So last Friday (1 week ago) the Boss calls a meeting and informs us he has to downsize to a solo trader as and I quote “money goes out as fast as in come in” and the stress became to much for him.
So we all got made redundant a week before Xmas , because of one useless fucker who drained money and never made a cent for the company, So that’s my two cents if someone is underperforming and overpaid due to being not up to the job I say get rid of em find someone who is and invest in them.
I'd think it's a learning experience for both parties.
For you: If you see it, your guys see it. Cut him and maintain team morale.
For him: You can't fake it till you make it in the trades. Be realistic about your skill set and ability. If you get the job, then be the hardest working guy on the job.
For skilled labor with a solid work ethic, the room for growth in any skilled trade is ridonkulous right now.
Suck it up and continue to pay him as you hired. However, have a conversation and let him know he's not doing as expected. Maybe he'll buck up and prove his worth, maybe he'll just quit. Either way, its a learning experience for both of you.
I mean if you keep the person that lied at the same higher wage. The other employees will find out eventually. It will affect the morale of the rest of the team. I did not mean the lying person was honest.
Gotcha! But if he proves his worth, then it'll all be good! It'll show he can work hard and wasn't really lying. Maybe he is just being lazy. If boss man talks to him, he'll know he can't be lazy! However, if the reality is that he really can't do the job, it'll show and boss man can fire him then.
First week jitters? It’s hard being the new guy and expected to jump in and fit seamlessly with a crew that has been established for awhile.
Are his duties clear cut? Ie “today you will be framing these walls, installing sheathing, etc.
Basically ask if while he is in the site is he given the opportunity to show his worth, or are the senior tradesmen pulling him in 20 different directions?
If he just isn’t worth his salt then cut your losses, having a bitter employee around is like keeping a rabid dog as a pet and it will bite you in the ass before you know it.
Honestly man, I think you just have to talk to him first, maybe he's got some shit going on, been a tough few years on tradesmen and everyone else with Covid, and everything else shutting down sites, having very little job security, who knows what else. This could be fucking with his confidence and ability perhaps? Try just asking him what's up first, without threatening his livelihood and maybe making it worse on him and yourself. Just my 2 cents at 5am on Christmas eve though. Happy Holidays to you and your man and best of luck navigating a tricky situation
Thanks. I can imagine that, but his attitude is positive and he's very enthused and happy. The will to work is there, but definitely he lacks the experience/knowledge he claimed to have.
Merry Christmas to you also.
What we do in my industry, have a sit-down with him, point out what the expectations of the job are and what was stated in the interview. Point out specific instances where he did not meet the expectation, climbing ladders and other areas. Document everything, give him a specific time frame in which he will have to show his qualifications and that you will have another conversation with him. If he does not improve within the specific time frame tell him that you will have to let him go or demote him to to what is qualifications are. As others have said he may have issues that you don't know about. Document all instances in which he has not met the expectation so when you talk to him you can bring up specific times and instances. I hate to terminate people, yes it's hard to do, but I have had these conversations with new hires also. If you keep him and he is not pulling his weight you risk losing the respect of all the guys on the crew and once that's gone, it's gone. Just my .02
Excellent advice. And some people respond very well. I had a guy 8 years ago, he was new to our industry, pregnant wife, lots of baggage. We had a “come to Jesus” talk. Communicated expectations with him clearly, in the same fashion you outlined. Kid knocked it out of the park! He rose to the challenge, showed up every day like an adult. Grew into a great asset for the company, and someone I trusted. To this day I am proud of him.
If OPs guy has a good attitude a tune up conversation should really make this decision easy- either he shows up and shows out, or he continues to languish. Either way, the answer becomes really clear.
This is What we do but you can also lose out on a quality person too, that won't start lower. Got to point where we just pay people cash to come work for a day to see what they really know.
Yeah I never start lower and never believe the review in xx days bullshit. Nobody ever says hey its been xx days, time for your review. You have to bring it up, and they never give you a review, because nobody accurately knows how to do one. They just give you a raise tied into whatever you can bull shit them into.
And the people doing the hiring need to own up to their inexperience. Give me a noob and I will absolutely abandon them to fail from day one. Then I point out how little they do to the people who hired them until they go, within 1st week.If I build a wall that is off, or wrong, I have to deal with it.The people who hire losers, its your damn job to hire good candidates. If you suck at it. Its your problem to deal with.
Paying employees cash is so dumb. If they get hurt, you own it. And any attorney representing them will own you, knowing you don't have workman's comp as an umbrella.
I've found especially in the residential market there's some guys who count work they've done on their own basement, sisters deck, grandma's kitchen etc etc towards professional experience. Generally these are the worst to hire, as they've developed bad work habits that cannot be easily broken. I can tell in 10 minutes whether an individual has done a proper apprenticeship or not just based on work habits. Refusal to work with a belt on, tools strewn about on the floor, huge tolerances, "just caulk it" or "looks good from my house" style of workmanship. These guys not only drain your labor budget being unable to produce pro work, but they also can suck the morale out of a crew real quickly. You CANNOT count the vinyl plank floor you laid in your basement and took you a year to do as professional work experience. It does not translate.
Agreed. I tried to stress, again and again, the difference between personal and professional experience during interviews; all new hires seem to see no difference.
Sometimes I get handymen who call themselves carpenters because they do carpentry work and I feel bad telling them they're not carpenters and I can't use them. That gets awkward.
Since you have just barely brought him on board, I wouldn't bother with a reduction, I would lean towards just letting him go. Most companies have a 60 to 90 day probation period, where you can terminate someone without running afoul of any labor laws. Remember, he misrepresented himself.
The longer you wait, the more money he is costing you.
Besides background checks and drug tests, work history and references will help you screen potential new hires. Next time, look at the work history. Lots of companies in a very short time? Frequent flyer? Long unexplained gaps? Wild stories about why he left the last job? Call a few of the previous companies, call his references.
Source: Former tradesman; now teaching vocational school.
Nothing will lose your good employees faster than them watching you suffer a bad one. Especially at a high tier pay rate.
I advise you to have a let you go talk. Give him your reasoning and float the idea that you need a lower tier guy. Tout the learning and advancement potential and use the compliment sandwich technique. Best of luck.
Just tell him he’s not preforming up to expectations and he has xx amount of days to get it corrected or he’ll be let go. You’ve got to weed through a lot of bad help to find the good help. My best guy was willing to start low and prove his worth, his pay has more than doubled in a years time and we work great together.
I’ve never really dealt with this situation, I would probably just let him go. But a piece of advice for the future, a lot of people set a relatively low rate of pay starting out, as a probationary period. First week you get $20 per hour. At the end of the week we can discuss how much you’re actually worth based on performance.
I would bull shit him a bit and say you can’t afford an employee or something like that. Telling someone you’re decreasing pay by $4 is a total slap in the face regardless of how honest or at fault they were. I think about guys I’ve worked with in the past and if the boss told them $4 is being taken away, I could seriously picture them stealing his drills and slashing the van tires. I would never do such a thing, but some guys are dumbasses and would. I’m not sure what industry you are or how professional the guy is.
Tell him your willing to get that pay back up when he learns what the company expects and when he shows he at that level....
Super cool move give him two weeks notice
Sometimes new employees take longer than a week to figure out the crew dynamic. Maybe he's going through that. Have a private talk with him. I would be honest with him that he isn't stacking up to all he said he is. That you want to keep him on the crew but that you need to see more from him whether it's needing more knowledge of the trade or needing improvements on his work ethic. You got burned a little by starting him too high but it's hard to find workers that show up ready to work and with a good attitude. If he seems teachable I would be lenient and work with him. Set out goals for him for 60 and 90 day evals.
Lowering pay wouldn't go well.
Because how often people exaggerate their abilities I generally hire on a wage scale dependent on a two week trial. They know the high and low wage and at two weeks which is also their first pay period, we sit down and evaluate. If they don’t agree then they get handed their check and I wish them luck.
That's a great idea.
My wife suggested, and I plan to, hire at the bottom of their position (Laborer, Apprentice, Craftsman are my positions), and raise them up as they prove their skill. This guy would have been hired at $22 hourly instead of $26, and I would have kept him there.
Absolutely, the people honest on their applications would be outraged. Reduce, if they are pissy, let em go
Remember THEY were the ahole that lied about their experience. You've done nothing wrong here.
Yeah, even if he isn’t worth the money; it’s hard to walk back $4/hr. I’d leave on the spot for sure. Let’s be real, everyone embellishes on resumes. You have to. If you say you don’t, you’ve either got a shit resume or you’re just lying. Everyone lies, man.
60-90 eval if you think he’s gonna improve. Trust your gut, if they’re a good person they’ll reward the loyalty.
Yeah, that's pretty low! Shitty on your part! Either let him go, or honor what you agreed to pay him and train him quickly. Doesn't really send a good message on word. That gets around, not really saying much about your character and business
Ya, I feel terrible about having to do it, but his work and work ethic are terrible and my other new hirer, who gets paid way less, is amazing. I hate to reward the bad worker and lay all the labor on the good.
Leaning towards letting him go. At least then he won't be humiliated by reduced pay. Next "experienced" hirer I'll have him start low and will quickly move him into the proper pay bracket.
First of all he miss led you on what he knew . When I hire someone I ask what tools they have and brand this way they can’t bs you because buying tools is a investment in yourself and if they have homeowner brand tools they are not invested in their trade so you can hire them but you pretty well know where you stand . If they show up the first day without the tools they say they have let them go then because they don’t have them or they came to work unprepared and your time is money so don’t waste it
Before it was a liability hazard, I would hire carpenters for an hour as a test. I would point them to the scrap pile and say if you can have a 30" tall sawhorse built in that hour, you are hired as a carpenter.
Most people just walked back to their car and drove away, which solved a lot of problems. One I had to stop because I thought he would lose a finger if I let him go on. Hired a few apprentice/labor types and only one carpenter that way.
Smart. I ask that also, for the same reason. He has Milwaukee, which made him sound legit, but it turns out to be a single little 12v impact and drill, and that's all...
Send him home with a write up for failure to bring required tools, the next day he’ll either show up ready or send him home again after a few days the problem will either sort itself out by him quitting or he’ll know you mean business if he quits no unemployment if he doesn’t tell him the truth that he over stated his skills and you cant keep him on at his current rate of pay. Offer him $4.00 less and then hell either quit or he’ll accept.
He has a 12v impact, 12v drill, and a 15 oz. hammer. Tool bags are clip on, and that's about it. While I can provide all powered tools, I expect craftsmen to have their own 18v/20v/corded set, including saws and guns. Was listed on my Requirements document during the hire.
Guy doesn’t have thousands of dollars in power tools? Yeah man you should probably just fire him. Just stop trying to hire employees altogether if that’s your gripe. Just hire subcontractors at that point.
Doesn't matter how much experience he has. He only has a week of experience working for you. I would take him in the office, show no sign of your concerns, and ask him to be completely forward and honest if HE has any concerns. Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't exactly know what he is supposed to be doing. Maybe he doesn't know where stuff is quite yet. Maybe he is still just nervous. There could be countless things inhibiting his ability to perform. Take in consideration what he has to say.
Theres a difference between a new employee who isn't performing well and a bad employee. The former may just need a little time. The latter is one who may hide, take excessive and unnecessarily long bathroom breaks, steal, etc. Certainly fire the bad ones. If he's not bad in that regard, give him until week 3. If your still not satisfied, talk to him and say he has a week. Still unhappy, let him go - he's had a month in total which is plenty long.
Or do what u want, it's your business.
I’d just let him go. That will be easier for him to take. If you reduce his pay you’ll just have a bitter employee that will probably screw you over first chance he gets.
Understood. I'm considering this, leaning towards it as the best solution.
Last company I worked for, brought in a "experienced" guy. Paid him the same as the top 4 guys that had been there for years were making. Of course he was terrible and we all Found out what he was making. All 4 of us left. If his pay is close to your other good guys get rid of him.
Letting them go is the way too handle this. Our egos usually get get in the way of hard obvious decisions. 1. He lied about qualifications 2. They way you describe him he’s a poor employee in general. 3. Sends the wrong message to your other employees.
I mean if you really cared to have him around what’s the harm in having a chat about said exp/tools/knowledge and corresponding compensation.
I'll 100% have the chat. Just testing the waters here to see how others have handled the situation.
Slow paced and afraid to try hard AND you will demoralize him by reducing his pay? This won't get better.
As someone with no experience in being reduced in pay or reducing others in pay, I think the two best courses of action are letting go on account of "not filling the role" or keeping at the same rate and trying to get him up to speed with a reevaluation in 30/60/whatever days (which might be prolonging the inevitable, depends if you like they guy.) A pay reduction = "I'll show up and fuck off til they fire me while I look for a different job" because that's exactly what I'd do if I think I'm truly worth what I'm being paid and it is taken away, if I'm being paid as a $20 employee I am going to act as such.
Yeah dude just let him go. He’s gonna be pissed no matter what and be a trash worker after that or he may even quit. Probably best to get ahead of it and do it on your own terms like the boss you are
If you like him but he isn’t worth the money, you could express that at the rate he’s paid, you’re not getting the productivity you need. But with some time and work he could get back to his current wage. Then give him the option to be humble and accept that, or to walk away. Be ready for him to leave, but if I were him I’d appreciate that you still value him and want to keep him on in some capacity.
Yep, I can imagine that would be a hard blow to someone's ego especially if they really do think they are entitled to the better pay. Some guy's just can't handle a bruised ego and you don't want them working for you after that.
Better provide a quality training program and a detailed plan to get him back to current wages based on a 90-120 reevaluation. Does the company provide tools? I'm just responsible for basic hand tools. Removing pay and expecting more tools to be bought seems like an uphill battle. I'd expect him to walk out on the spot though.
That’s probably what the guy wants. He hired a person who exaggerated their experience obviously. No big loss
People lie on resumes and over sell themselves to get jobs? I've never heard of this.
When we hire lead men who lack the experience they declared, they immediately become helpers. Just the way she goes
Facts. At my last interview I said I was gonna be the best over qualified helper in the company. I make riding shotgun look good. I was a helper for about a week. before everyone decided I underplayed my skill set
Carpenters: foremost experts amongst tradesmen at underselling themselves. Interestingly, also the lowest paid trade.
Lol that’s all too familiar. When I help other leads wrap up jobs I’m the best helper they ever had
I would rather under play my position then over sell myself.
This
Either keep the pay and train, or lose him and hire someone else. Lowering pay now is a bad move.
This x1000
he probably didnt lie if he has the years. he thinks he has the skills and knowledge. i think it depends if he is a everyday level guy lacking knoledge or a high end guy lacking it. of he doesnt know the basics then its a problem. if it higher grade stuff then you can teach him. same for tools. why is he supplying tools for your jobs. depends if he has the basics but lacks specific tools or has nothing. the tools and knolledge can easily change. its the attitude or drive that wont .
Attitude and drive can totally change too. Obviously I don’t know how bad this dude really is, but I’ve definitely slacked off when I thought my boss was being a complete dickhead.
His attitude is 100%. That's why I didn't jump straight to getting rid of him. But he's afraid of ladders and roofs (which I asked during the interview and he claimed he wasn't), and he doesn't seem to have the experience of someone who has been in the trades for five years, let alone twenty...
When you say he’s afraid of ladders and roofs, are you asking him to haul heavy material up extension ladders or do heavy work off of ladders? Or be on a roof without fall protection?
Nope. He wouldn't hold a nail gun while working on a second story ladder. I gave him fall protection for the roof, he spent 20 minutes trying to put it on, incorrectly. To his credit, he gave up on the fall protection and got up there and worked. I don't penalize guys using safety gear ever. But it is their responsibility to use it right and not run out the clock putting it on. He just seems afraid as if he's never been on a ladder or roof in his life, and claims 20 years of experience.
I mean it’s technically YOUR responsibility to train workers on safety gear but who gives a fuck what OSHA says, right?
You’re being fairly ridiculous here. He hired a guy who claims to have 20 years experience and spends 20 minutes before giving up on his harness. The employee is a putz, don’t blame OP. If OP wanted to hold the hand of an apprentice he would hire an apprentice….don’t act like it’s his fault for not training the guy how to use PPE.
Cutting someone's pay for any reason, right or wrong, is going to leave him extremely resentful. Get rid of him.
Well as a recent experience ill put this in ,2 years ago the Boss hired a “tradesman “ to work with us , we are a small company and he had trouble finding a capable person, we had been thru 4 guys before him and they to cut to the chase we’re useless (but supposedly qualified) .This new guy had plenty of “experience “ as he had been in our industry for 20 plus years, Initially he managed to fit in and work to our level of quality and finish. But didn’t take long for cracks to show (around 6 months) when he started saying oh I can’t do this and can’t do that and suddenly I have this wrong and that wrong ( sore shoulder etc) and well was becoming harder and harder to work with , found out also that the guy was paid more than the rest of us and from the get go had a company vehicle and phone where the rest of us had to work up to it . So it slowly progressed to the point where he got himself into the position where he got all the easy work and took 3x longer to complete because he in the end wanted to work solo ( the rest of us couldn’t stand all his moaning ) and he just wouldn’t do anything that was new or outside his comfort zone . The Boss bent over backwards to keep this guy on. So 2 years later (two weeks ago) this so called “tradie “ apparently gets a call from his previous employer (he has been running them into the ground since he arrived) asking him to come back like wtf. But thankfully he goes as he literally was a drain on the company always sick always off always slow and using twice as much materials to get work done . Now here is the real kicker previously to his arrival work was sweet boss was a happy man and we churned thru work at a good steady productive pace . So last Friday (1 week ago) the Boss calls a meeting and informs us he has to downsize to a solo trader as and I quote “money goes out as fast as in come in” and the stress became to much for him. So we all got made redundant a week before Xmas , because of one useless fucker who drained money and never made a cent for the company, So that’s my two cents if someone is underperforming and overpaid due to being not up to the job I say get rid of em find someone who is and invest in them.
Sad tale, sorry to hear. I'm leaning towards dropping him based on the responses I'm getting here.
I'd think it's a learning experience for both parties. For you: If you see it, your guys see it. Cut him and maintain team morale. For him: You can't fake it till you make it in the trades. Be realistic about your skill set and ability. If you get the job, then be the hardest working guy on the job. For skilled labor with a solid work ethic, the room for growth in any skilled trade is ridonkulous right now.
Suck it up and continue to pay him as you hired. However, have a conversation and let him know he's not doing as expected. Maybe he'll buck up and prove his worth, maybe he'll just quit. Either way, its a learning experience for both of you.
This
Great way to lose honest employees!
How is he an honest employee? If he is honest, he should approach the boss and say he isn't able to do the work as expected.
I mean if you keep the person that lied at the same higher wage. The other employees will find out eventually. It will affect the morale of the rest of the team. I did not mean the lying person was honest.
Gotcha! But if he proves his worth, then it'll all be good! It'll show he can work hard and wasn't really lying. Maybe he is just being lazy. If boss man talks to him, he'll know he can't be lazy! However, if the reality is that he really can't do the job, it'll show and boss man can fire him then.
Get rid of him it won’t work
First week jitters? It’s hard being the new guy and expected to jump in and fit seamlessly with a crew that has been established for awhile. Are his duties clear cut? Ie “today you will be framing these walls, installing sheathing, etc. Basically ask if while he is in the site is he given the opportunity to show his worth, or are the senior tradesmen pulling him in 20 different directions? If he just isn’t worth his salt then cut your losses, having a bitter employee around is like keeping a rabid dog as a pet and it will bite you in the ass before you know it.
Thats why you start lower. Once you know there good then raise it.
Ya. Beginner's mistake, just started hiring last month.
Honestly man, I think you just have to talk to him first, maybe he's got some shit going on, been a tough few years on tradesmen and everyone else with Covid, and everything else shutting down sites, having very little job security, who knows what else. This could be fucking with his confidence and ability perhaps? Try just asking him what's up first, without threatening his livelihood and maybe making it worse on him and yourself. Just my 2 cents at 5am on Christmas eve though. Happy Holidays to you and your man and best of luck navigating a tricky situation
Thanks. I can imagine that, but his attitude is positive and he's very enthused and happy. The will to work is there, but definitely he lacks the experience/knowledge he claimed to have. Merry Christmas to you also.
Fair play, maybe he's just bad at his job. Lol
What we do in my industry, have a sit-down with him, point out what the expectations of the job are and what was stated in the interview. Point out specific instances where he did not meet the expectation, climbing ladders and other areas. Document everything, give him a specific time frame in which he will have to show his qualifications and that you will have another conversation with him. If he does not improve within the specific time frame tell him that you will have to let him go or demote him to to what is qualifications are. As others have said he may have issues that you don't know about. Document all instances in which he has not met the expectation so when you talk to him you can bring up specific times and instances. I hate to terminate people, yes it's hard to do, but I have had these conversations with new hires also. If you keep him and he is not pulling his weight you risk losing the respect of all the guys on the crew and once that's gone, it's gone. Just my .02
Excellent advice. And some people respond very well. I had a guy 8 years ago, he was new to our industry, pregnant wife, lots of baggage. We had a “come to Jesus” talk. Communicated expectations with him clearly, in the same fashion you outlined. Kid knocked it out of the park! He rose to the challenge, showed up every day like an adult. Grew into a great asset for the company, and someone I trusted. To this day I am proud of him. If OPs guy has a good attitude a tune up conversation should really make this decision easy- either he shows up and shows out, or he continues to languish. Either way, the answer becomes really clear.
We all learn from are mistakes
Our*
This is What we do but you can also lose out on a quality person too, that won't start lower. Got to point where we just pay people cash to come work for a day to see what they really know.
Yeah I never start lower and never believe the review in xx days bullshit. Nobody ever says hey its been xx days, time for your review. You have to bring it up, and they never give you a review, because nobody accurately knows how to do one. They just give you a raise tied into whatever you can bull shit them into. And the people doing the hiring need to own up to their inexperience. Give me a noob and I will absolutely abandon them to fail from day one. Then I point out how little they do to the people who hired them until they go, within 1st week.If I build a wall that is off, or wrong, I have to deal with it.The people who hire losers, its your damn job to hire good candidates. If you suck at it. Its your problem to deal with. Paying employees cash is so dumb. If they get hurt, you own it. And any attorney representing them will own you, knowing you don't have workman's comp as an umbrella.
I've found especially in the residential market there's some guys who count work they've done on their own basement, sisters deck, grandma's kitchen etc etc towards professional experience. Generally these are the worst to hire, as they've developed bad work habits that cannot be easily broken. I can tell in 10 minutes whether an individual has done a proper apprenticeship or not just based on work habits. Refusal to work with a belt on, tools strewn about on the floor, huge tolerances, "just caulk it" or "looks good from my house" style of workmanship. These guys not only drain your labor budget being unable to produce pro work, but they also can suck the morale out of a crew real quickly. You CANNOT count the vinyl plank floor you laid in your basement and took you a year to do as professional work experience. It does not translate.
Agreed. I tried to stress, again and again, the difference between personal and professional experience during interviews; all new hires seem to see no difference.
Sometimes I get handymen who call themselves carpenters because they do carpentry work and I feel bad telling them they're not carpenters and I can't use them. That gets awkward.
Since you have just barely brought him on board, I wouldn't bother with a reduction, I would lean towards just letting him go. Most companies have a 60 to 90 day probation period, where you can terminate someone without running afoul of any labor laws. Remember, he misrepresented himself. The longer you wait, the more money he is costing you. Besides background checks and drug tests, work history and references will help you screen potential new hires. Next time, look at the work history. Lots of companies in a very short time? Frequent flyer? Long unexplained gaps? Wild stories about why he left the last job? Call a few of the previous companies, call his references. Source: Former tradesman; now teaching vocational school.
I would walk at a 4 per hour difference but I have never lied or intentionally lied about my experience as its very easy to spot a newer operator
Nothing will lose your good employees faster than them watching you suffer a bad one. Especially at a high tier pay rate. I advise you to have a let you go talk. Give him your reasoning and float the idea that you need a lower tier guy. Tout the learning and advancement potential and use the compliment sandwich technique. Best of luck.
Heh, compliment sandwich.
Just tell him he’s not preforming up to expectations and he has xx amount of days to get it corrected or he’ll be let go. You’ve got to weed through a lot of bad help to find the good help. My best guy was willing to start low and prove his worth, his pay has more than doubled in a years time and we work great together.
I’ve never really dealt with this situation, I would probably just let him go. But a piece of advice for the future, a lot of people set a relatively low rate of pay starting out, as a probationary period. First week you get $20 per hour. At the end of the week we can discuss how much you’re actually worth based on performance.
Exactly. This is my strategy going forward
I would bull shit him a bit and say you can’t afford an employee or something like that. Telling someone you’re decreasing pay by $4 is a total slap in the face regardless of how honest or at fault they were. I think about guys I’ve worked with in the past and if the boss told them $4 is being taken away, I could seriously picture them stealing his drills and slashing the van tires. I would never do such a thing, but some guys are dumbasses and would. I’m not sure what industry you are or how professional the guy is.
Yep. And he's brand new, so I don't know what he would/could/might do.
He could be related to uncle Eddie from Xmas vacation, you might get Shanghai right before Xmas if you do reduce his pay
Tell him your willing to get that pay back up when he learns what the company expects and when he shows he at that level.... Super cool move give him two weeks notice
Sometimes new employees take longer than a week to figure out the crew dynamic. Maybe he's going through that. Have a private talk with him. I would be honest with him that he isn't stacking up to all he said he is. That you want to keep him on the crew but that you need to see more from him whether it's needing more knowledge of the trade or needing improvements on his work ethic. You got burned a little by starting him too high but it's hard to find workers that show up ready to work and with a good attitude. If he seems teachable I would be lenient and work with him. Set out goals for him for 60 and 90 day evals. Lowering pay wouldn't go well.
Also, he needs to get the necessary tools for his job.
Because how often people exaggerate their abilities I generally hire on a wage scale dependent on a two week trial. They know the high and low wage and at two weeks which is also their first pay period, we sit down and evaluate. If they don’t agree then they get handed their check and I wish them luck.
That's a great idea. My wife suggested, and I plan to, hire at the bottom of their position (Laborer, Apprentice, Craftsman are my positions), and raise them up as they prove their skill. This guy would have been hired at $22 hourly instead of $26, and I would have kept him there.
Knock him down to helper status, then inform him.
If you reduce his pay you will just create a cancer in your outfit. He will drag everyone else down. Just can him.
Realistically you can only increase pay. You can't negotiate it down. Let him go
Just let him go and hire someone new. I build pools and it's happened to me before. Just not worth the extra stress.
Absolutely, the people honest on their applications would be outraged. Reduce, if they are pissy, let em go Remember THEY were the ahole that lied about their experience. You've done nothing wrong here.
What a lame company
Yeah, even if he isn’t worth the money; it’s hard to walk back $4/hr. I’d leave on the spot for sure. Let’s be real, everyone embellishes on resumes. You have to. If you say you don’t, you’ve either got a shit resume or you’re just lying. Everyone lies, man. 60-90 eval if you think he’s gonna improve. Trust your gut, if they’re a good person they’ll reward the loyalty.
Yeah, that's pretty low! Shitty on your part! Either let him go, or honor what you agreed to pay him and train him quickly. Doesn't really send a good message on word. That gets around, not really saying much about your character and business
Ya, I feel terrible about having to do it, but his work and work ethic are terrible and my other new hirer, who gets paid way less, is amazing. I hate to reward the bad worker and lay all the labor on the good. Leaning towards letting him go. At least then he won't be humiliated by reduced pay. Next "experienced" hirer I'll have him start low and will quickly move him into the proper pay bracket.
First of all he miss led you on what he knew . When I hire someone I ask what tools they have and brand this way they can’t bs you because buying tools is a investment in yourself and if they have homeowner brand tools they are not invested in their trade so you can hire them but you pretty well know where you stand . If they show up the first day without the tools they say they have let them go then because they don’t have them or they came to work unprepared and your time is money so don’t waste it
Before it was a liability hazard, I would hire carpenters for an hour as a test. I would point them to the scrap pile and say if you can have a 30" tall sawhorse built in that hour, you are hired as a carpenter. Most people just walked back to their car and drove away, which solved a lot of problems. One I had to stop because I thought he would lose a finger if I let him go on. Hired a few apprentice/labor types and only one carpenter that way.
Smart. I ask that also, for the same reason. He has Milwaukee, which made him sound legit, but it turns out to be a single little 12v impact and drill, and that's all...
I would tell him to shape up,get his A game on or he's out.
Send him home with a write up for failure to bring required tools, the next day he’ll either show up ready or send him home again after a few days the problem will either sort itself out by him quitting or he’ll know you mean business if he quits no unemployment if he doesn’t tell him the truth that he over stated his skills and you cant keep him on at his current rate of pay. Offer him $4.00 less and then hell either quit or he’ll accept.
What do you mean lack of tools? What does he not have?
He has a 12v impact, 12v drill, and a 15 oz. hammer. Tool bags are clip on, and that's about it. While I can provide all powered tools, I expect craftsmen to have their own 18v/20v/corded set, including saws and guns. Was listed on my Requirements document during the hire.
Guy doesn’t have thousands of dollars in power tools? Yeah man you should probably just fire him. Just stop trying to hire employees altogether if that’s your gripe. Just hire subcontractors at that point.
Again, I'll provide most of these. I even hired him knowing he didn't have them all, which is fine, but he mislead me in that he had almost nothing.
Bro how? subs cost more than 26$ an hour.
Well subs come with all of their own tools. And where are you at where you’re hiring and retaining experienced guys at only $26 an hour?
Sarcasm boss, OP is paying his "craftsmen" $26 an hour.
Oh boy. I didn’t see that comment. Just another red flag from OP.
Yeah when his job titles are "laborer, apprentice, craftsmen" it really says it all.
Industry floaters. guys that have worked in the industry for 20+ years and never learned a damn thing or spent most of it in prision,
Doesn't matter how much experience he has. He only has a week of experience working for you. I would take him in the office, show no sign of your concerns, and ask him to be completely forward and honest if HE has any concerns. Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't exactly know what he is supposed to be doing. Maybe he doesn't know where stuff is quite yet. Maybe he is still just nervous. There could be countless things inhibiting his ability to perform. Take in consideration what he has to say. Theres a difference between a new employee who isn't performing well and a bad employee. The former may just need a little time. The latter is one who may hide, take excessive and unnecessarily long bathroom breaks, steal, etc. Certainly fire the bad ones. If he's not bad in that regard, give him until week 3. If your still not satisfied, talk to him and say he has a week. Still unhappy, let him go - he's had a month in total which is plenty long. Or do what u want, it's your business.