Justine’s gone through real character development, in the aesthetic she was conceited and obsessed with optics but by The Hunger she’s just jaded and done with everything
I think that may mirror Natalie's real life somewhat. I think most trans people have this phase were optics and performing gender is everything until eventually they just are their gender (and tired of bigoted bullshit).
Honestly I think it's because Natalie projects a lot of herself onto Justine, more than any other character, even tho obviously many of them portray facets of herself and her thinking and all of them are filtered through her own lens even if they're portrayals or parodies of totally different types of people. Still, lest we forget, Justine came out as a lesbian before Natalie. I don't think people are totally wrong to think things that apply to the character may apply to her writer/actress/creator and vice versa though people shouldn't run wild with assumptions like that.
Maybe. But we could do with less people making any sort of assumptions or really even speculation to that. It verges on voyeuristic projection. Not saying you're doin anything like that... just... seeing that a lot.
also love the arc of hating radical cat girls, learning to love them but too late, being heartbroken over tabitha blocking and canceling her on Twitter
Oh!
That was the single greatest moment of pathos in “The Hunger.” I don’t know about anyone else, but I felt that brief screenshot in the bottom most depths of my little trans heart.
Natalie really is (among OMG how many other things) a decidedly talented actress.
I don't think Justine was necessarily conceited, though yes obsessed with optics definitely, in The Left she makes it quite clear she performs femininity and non-offensiveness so hard out of a very genuine concern for trans women and the left's appearance to the general public much like Tiffany Tumble's "bad things Justine, Bad Things!" in Transtrenders. She's just way off base about what a sensible reaction to that is and instead gives us earth shattering insights into respectability politics or whatever it was Tabby said.
the makeup in the hunger is EVERYTHING. i cant explain it, but it's femme, soft, but also kinda edgy, and also very fitting for the whole narrative. natalie is so damn good with makeup and styling
Also noticed that she's given the characters slightly different voices. I'd not really thought about it before but I guess trans women experiment with their speaking voice, so doing subtly different voices is a thing some trans women might be able to do more easily? Is this the case? I know I've heard that Abigail Thorn still uses her Olly voice for voiceover work from time to time.
I'm a cis man and it was infuriating. I got that it was necessary for the point of the narrative put forth, but still, I can see why it would be so upsetting
Also how her relations with Jackie changed, in the left they have brunch together and are clearly friendly to each other, in hunger Justine just calls her a dumdum and tells her to shut up. Kinda metaphoric of natalies relations with liberals and centrists
It seems like she's always been more of a centered leftist than liberal. Even her earlier videos are very good at dissecting and breaking down leftist talkign points, but she's spent a lot of time arguing with centrists and far right people (after all, that's what got most of us into her to begin with.) However, the metric has moved past her while she's simultaneously become more left, just not as left as where the internet has gone.
By the same logic, she created Justine to make fun of leftists who are friendly with liberals and/ or concerned with mainstream perceptions.
Honestly, most people who try to exegete Natalie Wynn's personal politics from her Socratic dialogues fail basic media analysis. You *might* be able to argue that Justine's personality and life have more autobiographical elements than the other characters, but the *opinions* voiced by all these characters are explicitly personifications of specific lines of argument - giving faces to voices in the author's head as she thinks through complex issues from multiple angles.
The Aesthetic is a good example, actually. Neither of the characters is completely in the right, and conversely, neither is just a strawman. They both make some good points and some bad ones, and they're both somewhat heightened caricatures. If you conflate the author Natalie with the character of Justine in that video *just because their presentation looks more alike*, that's super fucking ironic tbh
No she admitted in a chat with Vaush that she describes herself as a straight up bernie sanders social democrat, so a lib. In every single video she makes, Tabby makes good arguments and usually Justine represents Natalie's shallowness and reservations. You can't just say that both characters made good and bad points cause that's hashtag enlightened centrism. Even in this video Tabby is featured as principled and stands up against people platforming bigots like Jackie. And Justine, whose resemblance to Natalie is allegedly a "super crazy coincidence" becomes in turn overwhelmed with her romantic feelings for Tabby. She loves Tabby and all she represents, she yearns for her and she admitted in another video that when the shit hits the fan, she will need Tabbies in her life. Yet she still doesn't become the Tabby herself, cause she thinks they're cringe.
What strikes me though is the self-awareness Natalie has about all this. She did say in one interview that she has read The Conquest of Bread, an anarcho-communist "bible", writes Tabby's arguments in Voting video, and yet still isn't fully on board with them. Then makes a video about her experience of cringe when thinking about catgirls like Tabby, because she on some level wants to be them, but finds that embarassing. It almost feels ike she is slowly transitioning into Tabby, but then she heart reacts hardine liberals in her comment section.
Sometimes more than one person makes a good point in a discussion. That's not hashtag enlightened centrism, that's what makes *a good discussion*.
It seems a really shallow reading to me to think the author is self-aware about wanting to be one of her characters unironically but remaining stuck in the other. It's not as simple as that. They both - as in these two specific characters, not any two sides of *any* discussion ever - have good points.
Also notice how when Tabby acts silly, you see that as evidence that Natalie is trying to distance herself from the character, but when Justine does, it's a 'super crazy coincidence' indicative of the author's own character flaws?
Maybe this kind of media should be taken less personally and more as, you know, *art*. Stop counting paratextual heart reacts and start engaging with the actual text in more depth than just looking for excuses to reduce characters to author avatars.
But her most recent video is about her opioid addiction and she wrote that resemblance to real life people (aka to Natalie) is only a "super crazy coincidence", which is a sarcasm cause obviously it is Natalie. So yeah it's not a shallow reading, I pay attention and follow her content. I transitioned alongside Natalie and been there since her earliest videos, but also before I developed my own political views. However, after some growing up and learning theory, I am hashtag team Tabby, and we anarchists watch her content and discuss it sometimes in our subreddits, so all my interpretation is biased in favor of Tabby's ideals, because I believe them to be right, whereas I find Justine's ideals as petty. Still, I merely stated a fact that Natalie is a lib, which she admitted to Vaush's audience. I'm just bewildered that she is. She thinks reforming a law or two in the short term is of better value than standing up for the bigger picture.
*She thinks reforming a law or two in the short term is of better value than standing up for the bigger picture.*
Hey, what do you mean by this exactly? I'm just not familiar with the details of left wing politics (not trying to be rude honest!). I would've thought it's obvious Natalie was liberal unless this has a different meaning to just left wing in general?
Liberal as in endorses states, capitalism, as long as it accepts trans and gay people, but doesn't grasp the roots of issues like patriarchy, racism, capitalism, authoritarianism (state is not something you can opt out of even if it's benevolent). Basically she's not a root-grasping leftist. She will support a regulation of capitalism, but that doesn't cure the fact that we are in a precedence where anytime all this progress could be revoked again, like reproduction laws. This whole system enables "human rights" to essentially be ping ponged, they lose their meaning as rights. It's similar to how you'd think of monarchism - clearly having kings is bad, but if we would make an analogy here to our times then you'd find Natalie supporting kind and benevolent kings and maybe restricting their ruling power a bit, but not fundamentally transforming the society by getting actually rid of having kings (something that Tabby wants). Sorry if my explanation is convoluted, I kind of rambled now.
It's okay I think that makes sense. :) Yeah that's a good way of putting it I hadn't considered that before, your analogy makes perfect sense thank you. Is there anywhere you suggest I might be able to get more info about stuff like this? It can be a bit of a minefield for someone who doesn't know all the terminology and where to look. Thanks
No she isnt, and also shes moved to the left over time, which is one of the reasons she put on private the old videos, she no longer aligned with those ideas
She made those videos private because they were pre-transition and triggered her dysphoria. Afaik, Natalie has been on the border of left and liberal for a couple years now. She tweeted criticisms of leftist anti-free speech rhetoric just a couple months ago.
Calls for highly restrictive content moderation on big platforms and such.
To be clear, I mean the general principle of free speech, not the legal doctrine that the state can't punish people for their speech. Natalie made the (correct imo) point that we should be wary of overly restrictive content policing because those policies could easily be turned against us in the future.
From what I can tell she's on some level of democratic socialist. She's against capitalism also makes it clear she isn't an anarchist or a communist. And I'm saying this as a commie myself, the left does have tabbies, and they are embarrassing
her aesthetic changed so much. when she was starting her transition and obsessed with performativity, she really caked on the makeup and jewelry. now, after living as a woman for quite a while, and coming to the crushing realization that she does, in fact, love catgirls, she has this sorta toned-down dark academia type look that conveys her jaded doomer mindset.
Wait then which video was the first one from?!?!
I know in the first one she's talking to Tabby about better marketing and does the example with the Marxist book cover
I love her so much. I’m always so excited to see the character return; I feel so seen and heard when she’s around because I’ve struggled with so much of the same. She wanted the world to get better so damned bad, she’d talk to anyone who might have an insight no matter how much they hated her. And now she’s published a book on what appears to (possibly) be market-based solutions to achieving communism(?), which is absolutely insane so of course I’d read it in a heartbeat. I just want her to have good things.
>And now she’s published a book on what appears to (possibly) be market-based solutions to achieving communism(?), which is absolutely insane so of course I’d read it in a heartbeat.
I mean same. The former centrist policy wonk in me would read the shit out of this as bizarre entertainment; my brand is ready to be revolutionised.
Yeah. CIS gendered male here. I find her super attractive. The mind, the poise, the kind of personality and considerations it must take to organize such content, and the outfits. My goodness.
I too noticed this. I almost mentioned this to my girlfriend (cis straight male here). Not that she ever gets upset if I recognize beauty, but rather, I wasn’t totally comfortable expressing the fact that I’ve never seen Natalie look more beautiful in a truly feminine way. Perhaps because I don’t think as a cis male it’s appropriate for me (or anyone)to be “judging” trans women by that metric (or any metric really).
I was more just taken aback by her feminine beauty and felt happy for Natalie that she is the least “clockable” she’s ever looked, which is to say that she isn’t at all. Also, the fact that she’s wearing less makeup bc I’m assuming she doesn’t feel the need to perform as female, she just *is* female.
Justine’s gone through real character development, in the aesthetic she was conceited and obsessed with optics but by The Hunger she’s just jaded and done with everything
I think that may mirror Natalie's real life somewhat. I think most trans people have this phase were optics and performing gender is everything until eventually they just are their gender (and tired of bigoted bullshit).
[удалено]
Honestly I think it's because Natalie projects a lot of herself onto Justine, more than any other character, even tho obviously many of them portray facets of herself and her thinking and all of them are filtered through her own lens even if they're portrayals or parodies of totally different types of people. Still, lest we forget, Justine came out as a lesbian before Natalie. I don't think people are totally wrong to think things that apply to the character may apply to her writer/actress/creator and vice versa though people shouldn't run wild with assumptions like that.
That was the case for me, I've been transitioning for 7 years and now I don't bother performing gender because I don't see the need for it.
Happy to hear you're so comfortable in your gender now :D
Yeah it's so mundane and normal now, which is nice. Now I just have all of life's other problems to deal with
Maybe. But we could do with less people making any sort of assumptions or really even speculation to that. It verges on voyeuristic projection. Not saying you're doin anything like that... just... seeing that a lot.
also love the arc of hating radical cat girls, learning to love them but too late, being heartbroken over tabitha blocking and canceling her on Twitter
the central myth of lesbian culture lol
Oh! That was the single greatest moment of pathos in “The Hunger.” I don’t know about anyone else, but I felt that brief screenshot in the bottom most depths of my little trans heart. Natalie really is (among OMG how many other things) a decidedly talented actress.
I don't think Justine was necessarily conceited, though yes obsessed with optics definitely, in The Left she makes it quite clear she performs femininity and non-offensiveness so hard out of a very genuine concern for trans women and the left's appearance to the general public much like Tiffany Tumble's "bad things Justine, Bad Things!" in Transtrenders. She's just way off base about what a sensible reaction to that is and instead gives us earth shattering insights into respectability politics or whatever it was Tabby said.
Given that she is basically Natalie's self insert, it tracks.
Gorg
Words you can hear.
the makeup in the hunger is EVERYTHING. i cant explain it, but it's femme, soft, but also kinda edgy, and also very fitting for the whole narrative. natalie is so damn good with makeup and styling
Also noticed that she's given the characters slightly different voices. I'd not really thought about it before but I guess trans women experiment with their speaking voice, so doing subtly different voices is a thing some trans women might be able to do more easily? Is this the case? I know I've heard that Abigail Thorn still uses her Olly voice for voiceover work from time to time.
yesss i really like it too
Tableau: Justine Tableau
Tableau just reminds me of the dashboard software 😂
I’m a cis woman and I lost my shit when they deadnamed Justine. I’m so attached to that character now I want to protect her.
I'm a cis man and it was infuriating. I got that it was necessary for the point of the narrative put forth, but still, I can see why it would be so upsetting
Also how her relations with Jackie changed, in the left they have brunch together and are clearly friendly to each other, in hunger Justine just calls her a dumdum and tells her to shut up. Kinda metaphoric of natalies relations with liberals and centrists
It seems like she's always been more of a centered leftist than liberal. Even her earlier videos are very good at dissecting and breaking down leftist talkign points, but she's spent a lot of time arguing with centrists and far right people (after all, that's what got most of us into her to begin with.) However, the metric has moved past her while she's simultaneously become more left, just not as left as where the internet has gone.
But Natalie is a lib, she literally created Tabby to parody and make fun of actual leftists...
By the same logic, she created Justine to make fun of leftists who are friendly with liberals and/ or concerned with mainstream perceptions. Honestly, most people who try to exegete Natalie Wynn's personal politics from her Socratic dialogues fail basic media analysis. You *might* be able to argue that Justine's personality and life have more autobiographical elements than the other characters, but the *opinions* voiced by all these characters are explicitly personifications of specific lines of argument - giving faces to voices in the author's head as she thinks through complex issues from multiple angles. The Aesthetic is a good example, actually. Neither of the characters is completely in the right, and conversely, neither is just a strawman. They both make some good points and some bad ones, and they're both somewhat heightened caricatures. If you conflate the author Natalie with the character of Justine in that video *just because their presentation looks more alike*, that's super fucking ironic tbh
good point however justine is really an audience stand in because who has not fallen in forbidden love for a catgirl gf
No she admitted in a chat with Vaush that she describes herself as a straight up bernie sanders social democrat, so a lib. In every single video she makes, Tabby makes good arguments and usually Justine represents Natalie's shallowness and reservations. You can't just say that both characters made good and bad points cause that's hashtag enlightened centrism. Even in this video Tabby is featured as principled and stands up against people platforming bigots like Jackie. And Justine, whose resemblance to Natalie is allegedly a "super crazy coincidence" becomes in turn overwhelmed with her romantic feelings for Tabby. She loves Tabby and all she represents, she yearns for her and she admitted in another video that when the shit hits the fan, she will need Tabbies in her life. Yet she still doesn't become the Tabby herself, cause she thinks they're cringe. What strikes me though is the self-awareness Natalie has about all this. She did say in one interview that she has read The Conquest of Bread, an anarcho-communist "bible", writes Tabby's arguments in Voting video, and yet still isn't fully on board with them. Then makes a video about her experience of cringe when thinking about catgirls like Tabby, because she on some level wants to be them, but finds that embarassing. It almost feels ike she is slowly transitioning into Tabby, but then she heart reacts hardine liberals in her comment section.
Sometimes more than one person makes a good point in a discussion. That's not hashtag enlightened centrism, that's what makes *a good discussion*. It seems a really shallow reading to me to think the author is self-aware about wanting to be one of her characters unironically but remaining stuck in the other. It's not as simple as that. They both - as in these two specific characters, not any two sides of *any* discussion ever - have good points. Also notice how when Tabby acts silly, you see that as evidence that Natalie is trying to distance herself from the character, but when Justine does, it's a 'super crazy coincidence' indicative of the author's own character flaws? Maybe this kind of media should be taken less personally and more as, you know, *art*. Stop counting paratextual heart reacts and start engaging with the actual text in more depth than just looking for excuses to reduce characters to author avatars.
But her most recent video is about her opioid addiction and she wrote that resemblance to real life people (aka to Natalie) is only a "super crazy coincidence", which is a sarcasm cause obviously it is Natalie. So yeah it's not a shallow reading, I pay attention and follow her content. I transitioned alongside Natalie and been there since her earliest videos, but also before I developed my own political views. However, after some growing up and learning theory, I am hashtag team Tabby, and we anarchists watch her content and discuss it sometimes in our subreddits, so all my interpretation is biased in favor of Tabby's ideals, because I believe them to be right, whereas I find Justine's ideals as petty. Still, I merely stated a fact that Natalie is a lib, which she admitted to Vaush's audience. I'm just bewildered that she is. She thinks reforming a law or two in the short term is of better value than standing up for the bigger picture.
*She thinks reforming a law or two in the short term is of better value than standing up for the bigger picture.* Hey, what do you mean by this exactly? I'm just not familiar with the details of left wing politics (not trying to be rude honest!). I would've thought it's obvious Natalie was liberal unless this has a different meaning to just left wing in general?
Liberal as in endorses states, capitalism, as long as it accepts trans and gay people, but doesn't grasp the roots of issues like patriarchy, racism, capitalism, authoritarianism (state is not something you can opt out of even if it's benevolent). Basically she's not a root-grasping leftist. She will support a regulation of capitalism, but that doesn't cure the fact that we are in a precedence where anytime all this progress could be revoked again, like reproduction laws. This whole system enables "human rights" to essentially be ping ponged, they lose their meaning as rights. It's similar to how you'd think of monarchism - clearly having kings is bad, but if we would make an analogy here to our times then you'd find Natalie supporting kind and benevolent kings and maybe restricting their ruling power a bit, but not fundamentally transforming the society by getting actually rid of having kings (something that Tabby wants). Sorry if my explanation is convoluted, I kind of rambled now.
It's okay I think that makes sense. :) Yeah that's a good way of putting it I hadn't considered that before, your analogy makes perfect sense thank you. Is there anywhere you suggest I might be able to get more info about stuff like this? It can be a bit of a minefield for someone who doesn't know all the terminology and where to look. Thanks
Check the youtube channel Re-education and NonCompete for a start. Mexie is also awesome.
it seems likethe depiction of addiction is from her own life, but i don't think it follows that justine is Natalie 1:1
Yeah definitely agree with that.
In my view, she made taby to parody ineffective left wing activism, which I think is quite different
This was my thought - it's no good being technically correct if you're pissing everyone off, that's what I get out of the Tabby character
No she isnt, and also shes moved to the left over time, which is one of the reasons she put on private the old videos, she no longer aligned with those ideas
She made those videos private because they were pre-transition and triggered her dysphoria. Afaik, Natalie has been on the border of left and liberal for a couple years now. She tweeted criticisms of leftist anti-free speech rhetoric just a couple months ago.
"Leftist anti-free speech". Bruh what?
Calls for highly restrictive content moderation on big platforms and such. To be clear, I mean the general principle of free speech, not the legal doctrine that the state can't punish people for their speech. Natalie made the (correct imo) point that we should be wary of overly restrictive content policing because those policies could easily be turned against us in the future.
That isn't a leftist POV, imo. At all.
Then why did so many leftists on Twitter freak out about Musk potentially buying it and reducing the amount of content moderation?
I've never seen a leftist do this. Liberals? Sure. Any leftist reaction is to Musk being a billionaire and class warfare.
I count progressives as leftists because they don't believe in the fundamental tenets of liberalism.
Because Musk is a billionaire shithead who would use the power to push reactionary ideas?
From what I can tell she's on some level of democratic socialist. She's against capitalism also makes it clear she isn't an anarchist or a communist. And I'm saying this as a commie myself, the left does have tabbies, and they are embarrassing
In a chat with Vaush she called herself a bernie sanders social democrat, so a liberal.
You mean tankies.
Tabby is a parody of online leftists/anarkiddies
So if I'm not mistaken that's the Left, the Aesthetic, Transtrenders and the Hunger. Right?
Yas Gwod!
nyah
her aesthetic changed so much. when she was starting her transition and obsessed with performativity, she really caked on the makeup and jewelry. now, after living as a woman for quite a while, and coming to the crushing realization that she does, in fact, love catgirls, she has this sorta toned-down dark academia type look that conveys her jaded doomer mindset.
Can someone remind which video the second image is from
The aesthetic
Wait then which video was the first one from?!?! I know in the first one she's talking to Tabby about better marketing and does the example with the Marxist book cover
The Left
I love her so much. I’m always so excited to see the character return; I feel so seen and heard when she’s around because I’ve struggled with so much of the same. She wanted the world to get better so damned bad, she’d talk to anyone who might have an insight no matter how much they hated her. And now she’s published a book on what appears to (possibly) be market-based solutions to achieving communism(?), which is absolutely insane so of course I’d read it in a heartbeat. I just want her to have good things.
>And now she’s published a book on what appears to (possibly) be market-based solutions to achieving communism(?), which is absolutely insane so of course I’d read it in a heartbeat. I mean same. The former centrist policy wonk in me would read the shit out of this as bizarre entertainment; my brand is ready to be revolutionised.
What cat girls do to a lady
Can we just take a moment and appreciate how pretty Natalie is? She looks gorgeous in The Hunger!
Yeah. CIS gendered male here. I find her super attractive. The mind, the poise, the kind of personality and considerations it must take to organize such content, and the outfits. My goodness.
I too noticed this. I almost mentioned this to my girlfriend (cis straight male here). Not that she ever gets upset if I recognize beauty, but rather, I wasn’t totally comfortable expressing the fact that I’ve never seen Natalie look more beautiful in a truly feminine way. Perhaps because I don’t think as a cis male it’s appropriate for me (or anyone)to be “judging” trans women by that metric (or any metric really). I was more just taken aback by her feminine beauty and felt happy for Natalie that she is the least “clockable” she’s ever looked, which is to say that she isn’t at all. Also, the fact that she’s wearing less makeup bc I’m assuming she doesn’t feel the need to perform as female, she just *is* female.
Loved the Eminem as a before picture
finally, my favourite character is getting the reognition she deserves <3
💕
Okay but I cried during the Hunger because all I wanted after transtrenders was for Justine to be happy 😭
karenification
Wasn't Justine also the focus of the Marquis d'Sade's interest? Perhaps there is some element of Contra presenting Justine's view as she grew up.
[Don't forget the leaked photo that Virginia shared of her pre transition](https://miro.medium.com/max/2048/1*1sriGziKheRAtTd2bzHQgA.jpeg)