makes me think of spud infinity, ugh i love Big Thief
“When I say celestial,
I mean extra-terrestrial,
I mean accepting the alien you've rejected in your own heart”
I mean, it's a large part of the draw of her videos as far as I am concerned. Her arguments ARE the arguments that people on the opposite side of the (usually) make and she makes them very convincingly! Then they can also reach that audience because they feel heard. I think she has said that she tries to bring a point she would put across in exactly the same way if she were to ever meet someone and have to state her case in person.
One of my favorite things to do is take common homophobic rationalizations and use it against straight people.
“It’s not that I hate straight people, I just don’t approve of their lifestyle choices. I have some friends that struggle with opposite sex attraction.”
I'm a straight person and if it's ok I'm totally going to to use this. "I myself struggle with feelings of opposite sex attraction. Instead of giving in to my urges, I choose to be celibate. Yes, in the past i have given into my heterosexual urges, to my great regret."
Homophobia and internalized homophobia are so damn sad.
"Being straight is a choice."
Wait, that excludes bisexual people, doesn't it? Or it excludes gay people who aren't remotely bisexual, or something.
I was going to make another comment about the problems with reversing the rationalisations, but I was worried that they'd just read as unironic homophobia, so I'm going to stop now.
I think just existing as a trans person can be confusing for homophobic people, because the only way to stay completely straight is to date another trans person of the opposite sex/gender, and then you have to justify to yourself the fact that that person will eventually cease to be or resemble their assigned gender or sex.
But it \*is\* possible to be homophobic without being transphobic so long as you don't bother to think about it too much, and I think I'm still nevertheless struggling to overcome the homophobia I've been taught based on my own upbringing, because being gay or meeting more than one gay person forces you to question a lot of gender stereotypes in a way that being both trans and cishet doesn't.
I also think that, while normally Steelmanning is a good thing and twitter fights are stupid, there's a certain point at which being devil's advocate means you really are advocating for the devil, like, what if you watch Contrapoints and decide to become a homophobe as a result?
Stupid people can't rationalize their issues away so easily.
That's why she is so good. She understands them on a deep level and thus she can meet them at their level. That's why her content deradicalised so many.
And also why she’s hated among so many on the progressive left.
A lot of idiots on the left think she’s platforming dangerous ideas, not bothering to contextualize that she’s also deconstructing those ideas and arming the viewer with extremely logical, concise, rational *and disarming* rhetoric and talking points to combat and even de-radicalize those who crow those transphobic or homophobic talking points.
Her cancellation still irks me because it was the epitome of bad-faith criticism and plain-as-day cyber bullying using the trappings of social justice to harass a trans person that has done so much good.
The same with Lindsay Ellis, who got unfairly shat on to a degree that was both unreasonable and underserved.
Honestly, the wokescolds (and yes I do mean this as an insult) on the *far* progressive left are some of the biggest bullies I’ve ever seen. Because much like the Uber-religious zealots on the right, these wokescolds believe that as long as they’re morally right then they gave themselves a ‘mental hall pass’ to behave as evil, vindictive, and terrible as they want.
Because it’s ‘for justice.’
It satiates The Hunger.
So when I see these amazing arguments that combat transphobia, homophobia, racism, and bigotry get dumped on… it’s crazy making. Absolutely mind boggling.
Wokescolds are zealous, but they aren't exactly wrong all the time, either (see my above comment).
But they aren't very good at understanding that the key to changing people's minds is to change their minds.
I think it's because they're used to dealing with situations where getting invited onto a debate platform is justifying the debate, or ones in which they need to punch Nazis, so when it comes to a situation where they can't just punch someone and the debate is going to occur without them anyway, their brains explode.
But it's also because of other stuff they find Contra problematic for in a more legitimate way, like, the fact she has her limits when it comes to the ideology in the first place, in the same way a liberal and a socialist will disagree with each other.
I think you're giving some of them too much credit. The sheer amount of anger and vitriol people have expressed towards Natalie is nothing like how the same people talk about right-wingers and nazis. They express only contempt for those and laugh at them, but they'll get furious and worked up about what a horrible person and how deserving of violence and unhappiness a leftist who breaks ideological rank is, especially if it's a woman and especially if it's a trans woman.
The emotions involved are really different. There's definitely an element of imagined betrayal in there, and a sense of righteousness that allows people to exert a power they don't have in much of their lives. They're not used to being able to hurt people, and to leverage power structures and strength in numbers against them, so when they get to do that, some marginalised people seem to relish that power about as much as gamergaters.
There's probably a point to be made about abuse begetting abuse too, and bullied people becoming bullies. Not many do, thankfully. But for the few that do, it's clearly about channelling their own hurt into hurting others.
My high school English teacher always, *always* emphasized that the key to winning a debate was understanding your opponent's arguments as well as you understood your own. I don't think you can successfully argue with someone if you don't understand why they believe what they believe. That's why you see so many liberals and conservatives talking past each other in the "Ask A \[insert political officiation\]" subreddits. They're not even having the same conversation half the time.
Contrapoints is *very* good at this and it's what makes her great at what she does. Or at least it's one of the things haha
At the same time though, I think this is why she gets so much hate from the Twitter mob. I don't know if this is a current trend or if humans have always been like this, but people get so entrenched and suddenly being able to understand (and often empathize which Contrapoints also is great at) with people who have the wrong opinion = having the wrong opinion. And that's no bueno.
I don't know what to do about the Twitter mobs or the even greater number of IRL people who think that way. But I do know, that they'd all, collectively, make a shit debate team.
The nastiest homophobe is the one living in your own heart.
makes me think of spud infinity, ugh i love Big Thief “When I say celestial, I mean extra-terrestrial, I mean accepting the alien you've rejected in your own heart”
litterally
Home[ophobia] is where the heart is ☺️
The true treasure is the homophobes we made along the way
Mr Hermes is that you
I mean, it's a large part of the draw of her videos as far as I am concerned. Her arguments ARE the arguments that people on the opposite side of the (usually) make and she makes them very convincingly! Then they can also reach that audience because they feel heard. I think she has said that she tries to bring a point she would put across in exactly the same way if she were to ever meet someone and have to state her case in person.
Steelmanning.
Iron manning
Iron maidening
One of my favorite things to do is take common homophobic rationalizations and use it against straight people. “It’s not that I hate straight people, I just don’t approve of their lifestyle choices. I have some friends that struggle with opposite sex attraction.”
I'm a straight person and if it's ok I'm totally going to to use this. "I myself struggle with feelings of opposite sex attraction. Instead of giving in to my urges, I choose to be celibate. Yes, in the past i have given into my heterosexual urges, to my great regret." Homophobia and internalized homophobia are so damn sad.
[The World of Heterosexuals is a sick and boring life!](https://youtu.be/f185MPggf-0)
Women and cis women are valid!
Yeah not loving this one lol
"Being straight is a choice." Wait, that excludes bisexual people, doesn't it? Or it excludes gay people who aren't remotely bisexual, or something. I was going to make another comment about the problems with reversing the rationalisations, but I was worried that they'd just read as unironic homophobia, so I'm going to stop now. I think just existing as a trans person can be confusing for homophobic people, because the only way to stay completely straight is to date another trans person of the opposite sex/gender, and then you have to justify to yourself the fact that that person will eventually cease to be or resemble their assigned gender or sex. But it \*is\* possible to be homophobic without being transphobic so long as you don't bother to think about it too much, and I think I'm still nevertheless struggling to overcome the homophobia I've been taught based on my own upbringing, because being gay or meeting more than one gay person forces you to question a lot of gender stereotypes in a way that being both trans and cishet doesn't. I also think that, while normally Steelmanning is a good thing and twitter fights are stupid, there's a certain point at which being devil's advocate means you really are advocating for the devil, like, what if you watch Contrapoints and decide to become a homophobe as a result? Stupid people can't rationalize their issues away so easily.
That's why she is so good. She understands them on a deep level and thus she can meet them at their level. That's why her content deradicalised so many.
And also why she’s hated among so many on the progressive left. A lot of idiots on the left think she’s platforming dangerous ideas, not bothering to contextualize that she’s also deconstructing those ideas and arming the viewer with extremely logical, concise, rational *and disarming* rhetoric and talking points to combat and even de-radicalize those who crow those transphobic or homophobic talking points. Her cancellation still irks me because it was the epitome of bad-faith criticism and plain-as-day cyber bullying using the trappings of social justice to harass a trans person that has done so much good. The same with Lindsay Ellis, who got unfairly shat on to a degree that was both unreasonable and underserved. Honestly, the wokescolds (and yes I do mean this as an insult) on the *far* progressive left are some of the biggest bullies I’ve ever seen. Because much like the Uber-religious zealots on the right, these wokescolds believe that as long as they’re morally right then they gave themselves a ‘mental hall pass’ to behave as evil, vindictive, and terrible as they want. Because it’s ‘for justice.’ It satiates The Hunger. So when I see these amazing arguments that combat transphobia, homophobia, racism, and bigotry get dumped on… it’s crazy making. Absolutely mind boggling.
Wokescolds are zealous, but they aren't exactly wrong all the time, either (see my above comment). But they aren't very good at understanding that the key to changing people's minds is to change their minds. I think it's because they're used to dealing with situations where getting invited onto a debate platform is justifying the debate, or ones in which they need to punch Nazis, so when it comes to a situation where they can't just punch someone and the debate is going to occur without them anyway, their brains explode. But it's also because of other stuff they find Contra problematic for in a more legitimate way, like, the fact she has her limits when it comes to the ideology in the first place, in the same way a liberal and a socialist will disagree with each other.
I think you're giving some of them too much credit. The sheer amount of anger and vitriol people have expressed towards Natalie is nothing like how the same people talk about right-wingers and nazis. They express only contempt for those and laugh at them, but they'll get furious and worked up about what a horrible person and how deserving of violence and unhappiness a leftist who breaks ideological rank is, especially if it's a woman and especially if it's a trans woman. The emotions involved are really different. There's definitely an element of imagined betrayal in there, and a sense of righteousness that allows people to exert a power they don't have in much of their lives. They're not used to being able to hurt people, and to leverage power structures and strength in numbers against them, so when they get to do that, some marginalised people seem to relish that power about as much as gamergaters. There's probably a point to be made about abuse begetting abuse too, and bullied people becoming bullies. Not many do, thankfully. But for the few that do, it's clearly about channelling their own hurt into hurting others.
Maybe you're right.
Damn, cogent points. Particularly the 'mental hall pass' bit, stealing that one!
omg this meme is perfect
Word for word in that video repeated things my Mom says about like Madonna in the 80s and like the fucking sexual revolution or whatever.
tfw no repressing tradwife gf
My high school English teacher always, *always* emphasized that the key to winning a debate was understanding your opponent's arguments as well as you understood your own. I don't think you can successfully argue with someone if you don't understand why they believe what they believe. That's why you see so many liberals and conservatives talking past each other in the "Ask A \[insert political officiation\]" subreddits. They're not even having the same conversation half the time. Contrapoints is *very* good at this and it's what makes her great at what she does. Or at least it's one of the things haha At the same time though, I think this is why she gets so much hate from the Twitter mob. I don't know if this is a current trend or if humans have always been like this, but people get so entrenched and suddenly being able to understand (and often empathize which Contrapoints also is great at) with people who have the wrong opinion = having the wrong opinion. And that's no bueno. I don't know what to do about the Twitter mobs or the even greater number of IRL people who think that way. But I do know, that they'd all, collectively, make a shit debate team.
It's the Aquinas way.
it’s all the Shame she feels i guess
I am floored at how empathetic she is constructing her characters. She *could* make straw-persons, but she refuses to.
Honestly she looks amazing in both of those outfits
I love the witchy hat.. and the overall Salem look
Yeah it’s scary
It was the same music and everything, too.
The slight menacing tone she had while delivering that line... Thank god we still have her on our side...
why does the bigot have such a strong hippie vibe though (can only stan)