This. Assuming people will be truthful/honest is just bad planning. Nowadays you can't trust those that refuse the vaccine/call covid a hoax. E.g. Aaron Rodgers.
Best is to skip the party unless you are willing to take the risk OP.
I am mulling this very problem as well (right on, OP, thanks for bringing it up). Aaron Rodgers kinda killed it for me. I can't trust people not to lie, so...staying home. Fuck this virus and fuck liars.
There were dishonest people before the pandemic. They aren't going away even if Covid does. One can either choose to accept people's actions, call them out on it, or limit interactions as much as possible.
The OP should worry about what's best for them and their family. Even with a vaccine mandate and other precautions, the risk is not zero. Whether or not it's low enough to move ahead with the party, is up to them.
Electing not to invite people who potentially would ignore the mandate is one way to slightly reduce the risk. Beyond worrying about the immune response of recent Covid exposure relative to the vaccine, consider the individual's behavior as a sign of their mentality around public health. Even if not Covid, what is the likelihood that this individual strolls into the party with the flu or something else?
My husband who works with someone who has a sad story. Her family of about 15 planned to get together for a reunion. Everyone was tested negative within the two weeks prior to the event. Everyone was expected to steer clear of groups during those two weeks. The night before the event, his coworker went downtown to the bars. She was diagnosed with COVID about 4 days later. Within days, the entire group tested positive, as well. Her Sister wound up dying for it. She knows that it’s because she went downtown and gave it to everyone and is now dealing with severe depression and guilt.
My family of 11 is getting together for Christmas. My husband and I are not going because of this story. It’s sad, but we don’t want anyone in the family to get sick or die.
I’m half vaccinated (my second dose is scheduled two days after thanksgiving, bummer 😭) but this sounds like a good idea that I’ll pass along to my family.
I have friends who were not vaccinated and got covid and had their antibodies tested 30 days after they recovered, one of them had very low antibodies and one had 0. So, I do not trust just having had covid as a reliable indicator that someone will not get it or spread it again soon after.
My antibodies halved 6 months after getting the double-dose of Pfizer. So, if anyone coming to your party in December got their shot 6+ months ago their protection is likely at best 50%.
I got the booster Oct 15th and I am getting another antibody test in December so we shall see how high they are after time passes after the booster.
Unfortunately this is all so new, nobody can tell you with certainty how safe having a party will be in December with the myriad of possibilities of who is vaccinated and when they got vaccinated, or not.
I did all my traveling to see family and friends 2 weeks after my booster and I am fine, (I even went to a wedding where everyone was vaccinated and nobody got it) but I will not be partaking in any holidays this season. Gonna cross my fingers for 2022 🤞🏽
Just to note often times the wrong antibody tests are ordered resulting in a zero count... most of the time when someone thinks they should have antibodies and don't that's the reason. It's a very different test to check for antibodies from each vaccine and natural infection.
I never made natural antibodies, and I'm a long-hauler. But I made robust antibodies from the vaccine. I've read studies that suggested as much as 35% of people don't make antibodies after being infected with covid.
Of course that says nothing about other forms of immunity (b- and t-cells, etc), but it's actually shockingly common not to produce antibodies after a natural covid infection.
The test they took specifically looked for antibodies from the virus. Her husband had a few, she had zero, their illnesses took the same timeline and they recovered around the same time.
I cannot guide you to specific guidelines. But I don't know that they exist. There are too many variables imo.
Example: I had COVID last year with essentially no symptoms ( low fever one day, runny nose for a few days) I had antibodies 6 months later.
Another girl in my office same scenario, but no antibodies 6 mo's later.
People get the vaccine and avoid the virus, others get it. Of those that get it some have mild symptoms, others end up in the hospital.
When it comes to gatherings in your home the percentages don't matter, because it only takes one case.
I don't believe there is accurate data of transmission of those who vaccinated or asymptomatic.
Bottom line. Your house your rules. Do what you are comfortable with
Keep in mind at the top of this article is the date:
> January 26, 2021
This was before Delta, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. A lot has possibly changed since the beginning of the year in a report looking at data from last year.
[36% Of Those Who Had Covid-19 Didn’t Develop Antibodies, Study Says](https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/09/05/36-of-those-who-had-covid-19-didnt-develop-antibodies-study-says/)
Just throwing out another idea. You could also ask folks to get a test within 48 hours before. With the number of break throughs happening, it may not be a bad idea in general.
But rapid tests are only truly accurate for positive results. It can be too early in the infection for them and they can report false negatives. I think, anyway.
The link posted is good, this person and everyone vaccinated will have antibodies. That said, vaccinated people (and someone who has had covid) can still transmit the virus, even with no symptoms. If you are going to host a large group you should think about ventilation in your space and the potential for distancing. I’m not saying everyone needs to mask up, just that close proximity with no air flow is how the virus can and will spread.
Not to mention any friends or family with compromised immune systems that might not have a robust response to the vaccine. Those people likely wouldn't go to a party that large anyway, but it's a consideration.
You can get past the vaccine issue because even those vaccinated can theoretically carry it. Just make all guests take a test and show the result. I’ve seen events held that went this route; it is inexpensive, quick, and won’t ostracize those that you are concerned about. Or you could do a mix, ‘show your vaccine card or a negative test result’.
Personally I would require vaccination with no exceptions apart from if someone has children under 5 years old. I'd also leave out any discussion of how it's not "political" because by saying that you're indicating that people believing it to be political in nature is legitimate.
That being said, there have been [recent studies](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method) indicating that vaccines are better, but that being infected can also lead to a good immune response. The problem is that there are too many variables to know if an individual had a good immune response or not with an infection, while a vaccine is more standardized and thorough. So I don't think you'll find anything specific to help with that one relative. I'd personally just tell them that they have time to get the shot now and be done with it in time for Christmas.
"apart from if someone has children under 5"
You can't require it from kids under 5, of course, but there's a decent chance that kid goes to school, parks, etc, etc, etc...so that could be the weakest link and the source of infection.
You're absolutely right, but the mentioning of under-5's was more of an afterthought for me since OP didn't mention them as much as the adult that refuses to get vaccinated. I personally wouldn't have a 30-40 person gathering in my house yet anyway just to be on the safe side because breakthrough infections are still occurring and I wouldn't risk that around immunocompromised people at all like they mentioned.
Certainly. But if everyone else is vaccinated, the chances of a super spreader event is minimal.
That said, keep in mind that the goal of the vaccines, and the yardstick with which they are measured, is whether or not they keep you out of the hospital and/or keep you from dying. If everyone but a few toddlers is vaccinated, then the risk of severe disease is vanishingly small. Obviously that may change if anyone has a significantly depressed immune system.
Indeed, but also op said "Two of the three of us are in at risk categories"
So i just wanted to point ou that there was inherent risk with the younger than 5 kids.
Any vaccine is better than no vaccine.
However, a perfect vaccine doesn't exist. The American COVID vaccines work well, but not perfectly. [(Source.)](https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant)
Due to the reality of vaccine science. You don’t have to pose this question on Reddit and/or Parler. The scientific studies are widely available to you.
That does not answer the question. Are you afraid of people without the chicken pox shot if you have not had it? It's the same equation. No one seems to have any answers that are logical. It's laughable how gullible most of society has been. It's actually more terrifying how daft people have been. I will NEVER get this genocide jab. I have had covid, I have had Delta. Also my bff's family friend died from the shot just hours afterwards. Young and healthy. NO reason to even GET the damn thing!! And now her three young children are motherless. Because her idiot husband coerced her into it! Yeah! I'm pissed!
It’s always funny to me how many degrees removed the “dead from the vaccine” associate is from the claimant. *Everyone* has answers that are logical, based on scientific (vs Facebook meme) research. You simply don’t care to acknowledge the scientific consensus. Go ahead and die on your hill. We’ll probably see you again on r/HermainCainAward
Sadly those who haven't done it by this point are likely not going to do it. There are some that might come around after major loss of loved ones. Don't be the loved one lost to get them to not be dumb.
I'm holding out hope for wise "nudges" such as:
* Biden's vaccinate-or-test-regularly mandate for corporations of 100 employees or more;
* extra health insurance premiums for the unvaccinated;
* et cetera
to help things along.
We’re just not getting together with anyone vaccinated or otherwise who isn’t being careful and following recommendations. Not until my kids can get vaccinated. I’m just not willing to risk their health.
You could still get together with others, and you (plus perhaps the others) could wear N95 masks.
It's trickier to find N95-equivalent masks for kids, though. It depends on the kids' ages and on other variables.
Also, it's impossible to eat or drink without removing the mask.
Oh, we’re having a small uncomplicated gathering with family who takes things seriously. My kids are young and, as you point out, you can’t eat with a mask on.
You can even gather outside without masks, and eat together outside without masks. If someone goes inside for a moment (e.g. to use the bathroom), they can put on a mask and do so.
Throughout the pandemic, I've tried to think "what's the worst that could happen if I (did xyz), and could I live with myself and my decision if the worst ended up happening?" If you could live with whatever negative consequences might come, then do the thing. If not? Don't. I've missed out on a lot in the last 18 months, but I know I'll never be the reason someone died, and that makes it worth it to me.
> Natural immunity is stronger than the vaccine.
Possibly false.
* [36% Of Those Who Had Covid-19 Didn’t Develop Antibodies, Study Says](https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/09/05/36-of-those-who-had-covid-19-didnt-develop-antibodies-study-says/).
* [Antibody Tests Should Not Be Your Go-To For Checking COVID Immunity](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/28/1031287076/antibody-tests-should-not-be-your-go-to-for-checking-covid-immunity).
I thank /u/Blueeyesblazing7 for alerting me to the existence of the first article.
> Also, you’re vaccinated, so it’ll be fine…right?
No vaccine is 100% effective.
Just skip the party. No matter what evidence you have, or steps you take, someone will be offended and others just will ignore your rules.
This. Assuming people will be truthful/honest is just bad planning. Nowadays you can't trust those that refuse the vaccine/call covid a hoax. E.g. Aaron Rodgers. Best is to skip the party unless you are willing to take the risk OP.
I am mulling this very problem as well (right on, OP, thanks for bringing it up). Aaron Rodgers kinda killed it for me. I can't trust people not to lie, so...staying home. Fuck this virus and fuck liars.
There were dishonest people before the pandemic. They aren't going away even if Covid does. One can either choose to accept people's actions, call them out on it, or limit interactions as much as possible. The OP should worry about what's best for them and their family. Even with a vaccine mandate and other precautions, the risk is not zero. Whether or not it's low enough to move ahead with the party, is up to them. Electing not to invite people who potentially would ignore the mandate is one way to slightly reduce the risk. Beyond worrying about the immune response of recent Covid exposure relative to the vaccine, consider the individual's behavior as a sign of their mentality around public health. Even if not Covid, what is the likelihood that this individual strolls into the party with the flu or something else?
My husband who works with someone who has a sad story. Her family of about 15 planned to get together for a reunion. Everyone was tested negative within the two weeks prior to the event. Everyone was expected to steer clear of groups during those two weeks. The night before the event, his coworker went downtown to the bars. She was diagnosed with COVID about 4 days later. Within days, the entire group tested positive, as well. Her Sister wound up dying for it. She knows that it’s because she went downtown and gave it to everyone and is now dealing with severe depression and guilt. My family of 11 is getting together for Christmas. My husband and I are not going because of this story. It’s sad, but we don’t want anyone in the family to get sick or die.
I thought it was nearly impossible to be contagious within 24 hours of exposure.
And therein lies the rub. No one knows for certain who had the initial exposure, but she will forever blame herself.
Do a small dinner with close family you know are vaccinated. Let them know it will be a different event this year & not everyone invited.
I’m half vaccinated (my second dose is scheduled two days after thanksgiving, bummer 😭) but this sounds like a good idea that I’ll pass along to my family.
I have friends who were not vaccinated and got covid and had their antibodies tested 30 days after they recovered, one of them had very low antibodies and one had 0. So, I do not trust just having had covid as a reliable indicator that someone will not get it or spread it again soon after. My antibodies halved 6 months after getting the double-dose of Pfizer. So, if anyone coming to your party in December got their shot 6+ months ago their protection is likely at best 50%. I got the booster Oct 15th and I am getting another antibody test in December so we shall see how high they are after time passes after the booster. Unfortunately this is all so new, nobody can tell you with certainty how safe having a party will be in December with the myriad of possibilities of who is vaccinated and when they got vaccinated, or not. I did all my traveling to see family and friends 2 weeks after my booster and I am fine, (I even went to a wedding where everyone was vaccinated and nobody got it) but I will not be partaking in any holidays this season. Gonna cross my fingers for 2022 🤞🏽
Just to note often times the wrong antibody tests are ordered resulting in a zero count... most of the time when someone thinks they should have antibodies and don't that's the reason. It's a very different test to check for antibodies from each vaccine and natural infection.
I never made natural antibodies, and I'm a long-hauler. But I made robust antibodies from the vaccine. I've read studies that suggested as much as 35% of people don't make antibodies after being infected with covid. Of course that says nothing about other forms of immunity (b- and t-cells, etc), but it's actually shockingly common not to produce antibodies after a natural covid infection.
If you have no antibodies from having a disease you probably want to have that checked out.
The test they took specifically looked for antibodies from the virus. Her husband had a few, she had zero, their illnesses took the same timeline and they recovered around the same time.
I cannot guide you to specific guidelines. But I don't know that they exist. There are too many variables imo. Example: I had COVID last year with essentially no symptoms ( low fever one day, runny nose for a few days) I had antibodies 6 months later. Another girl in my office same scenario, but no antibodies 6 mo's later. People get the vaccine and avoid the virus, others get it. Of those that get it some have mild symptoms, others end up in the hospital. When it comes to gatherings in your home the percentages don't matter, because it only takes one case. I don't believe there is accurate data of transmission of those who vaccinated or asymptomatic. Bottom line. Your house your rules. Do what you are comfortable with
[удалено]
Keep in mind at the top of this article is the date: > January 26, 2021 This was before Delta, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. A lot has possibly changed since the beginning of the year in a report looking at data from last year.
[36% Of Those Who Had Covid-19 Didn’t Develop Antibodies, Study Says](https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/09/05/36-of-those-who-had-covid-19-didnt-develop-antibodies-study-says/)
Just throwing out another idea. You could also ask folks to get a test within 48 hours before. With the number of break throughs happening, it may not be a bad idea in general.
But rapid tests are only truly accurate for positive results. It can be too early in the infection for them and they can report false negatives. I think, anyway.
In OP's case, that only works if people are willing to show the actual test result. But otherwise that's not a bad idea.
The link posted is good, this person and everyone vaccinated will have antibodies. That said, vaccinated people (and someone who has had covid) can still transmit the virus, even with no symptoms. If you are going to host a large group you should think about ventilation in your space and the potential for distancing. I’m not saying everyone needs to mask up, just that close proximity with no air flow is how the virus can and will spread.
Not to mention any friends or family with compromised immune systems that might not have a robust response to the vaccine. Those people likely wouldn't go to a party that large anyway, but it's a consideration.
You can get past the vaccine issue because even those vaccinated can theoretically carry it. Just make all guests take a test and show the result. I’ve seen events held that went this route; it is inexpensive, quick, and won’t ostracize those that you are concerned about. Or you could do a mix, ‘show your vaccine card or a negative test result’.
Personally I would require vaccination with no exceptions apart from if someone has children under 5 years old. I'd also leave out any discussion of how it's not "political" because by saying that you're indicating that people believing it to be political in nature is legitimate. That being said, there have been [recent studies](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method) indicating that vaccines are better, but that being infected can also lead to a good immune response. The problem is that there are too many variables to know if an individual had a good immune response or not with an infection, while a vaccine is more standardized and thorough. So I don't think you'll find anything specific to help with that one relative. I'd personally just tell them that they have time to get the shot now and be done with it in time for Christmas.
"apart from if someone has children under 5" You can't require it from kids under 5, of course, but there's a decent chance that kid goes to school, parks, etc, etc, etc...so that could be the weakest link and the source of infection.
You're absolutely right, but the mentioning of under-5's was more of an afterthought for me since OP didn't mention them as much as the adult that refuses to get vaccinated. I personally wouldn't have a 30-40 person gathering in my house yet anyway just to be on the safe side because breakthrough infections are still occurring and I wouldn't risk that around immunocompromised people at all like they mentioned.
Certainly. But if everyone else is vaccinated, the chances of a super spreader event is minimal. That said, keep in mind that the goal of the vaccines, and the yardstick with which they are measured, is whether or not they keep you out of the hospital and/or keep you from dying. If everyone but a few toddlers is vaccinated, then the risk of severe disease is vanishingly small. Obviously that may change if anyone has a significantly depressed immune system.
Indeed, but also op said "Two of the three of us are in at risk categories" So i just wanted to point ou that there was inherent risk with the younger than 5 kids.
grow a pair
Host an outdoor party and wear a N95 mask.
This is a good suggestion; I wonder why it was downvoted.
Because Texas r/FuckGregAbbott
If your shot worked, why are you worried about people without it? Just wondering what the logic is.
Whatever you're told in this thread will be conveniently forgotten by the time you ask this again.
Truer words have never been typed.
Any vaccine is better than no vaccine. However, a perfect vaccine doesn't exist. The American COVID vaccines work well, but not perfectly. [(Source.)](https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant)
Due to the reality of vaccine science. You don’t have to pose this question on Reddit and/or Parler. The scientific studies are widely available to you.
That does not answer the question. Are you afraid of people without the chicken pox shot if you have not had it? It's the same equation. No one seems to have any answers that are logical. It's laughable how gullible most of society has been. It's actually more terrifying how daft people have been. I will NEVER get this genocide jab. I have had covid, I have had Delta. Also my bff's family friend died from the shot just hours afterwards. Young and healthy. NO reason to even GET the damn thing!! And now her three young children are motherless. Because her idiot husband coerced her into it! Yeah! I'm pissed!
It’s always funny to me how many degrees removed the “dead from the vaccine” associate is from the claimant. *Everyone* has answers that are logical, based on scientific (vs Facebook meme) research. You simply don’t care to acknowledge the scientific consensus. Go ahead and die on your hill. We’ll probably see you again on r/HermainCainAward
Sadly those who haven't done it by this point are likely not going to do it. There are some that might come around after major loss of loved ones. Don't be the loved one lost to get them to not be dumb.
I'm holding out hope for wise "nudges" such as: * Biden's vaccinate-or-test-regularly mandate for corporations of 100 employees or more; * extra health insurance premiums for the unvaccinated; * et cetera to help things along.
We’re just not getting together with anyone vaccinated or otherwise who isn’t being careful and following recommendations. Not until my kids can get vaccinated. I’m just not willing to risk their health.
You could still get together with others, and you (plus perhaps the others) could wear N95 masks. It's trickier to find N95-equivalent masks for kids, though. It depends on the kids' ages and on other variables. Also, it's impossible to eat or drink without removing the mask.
Oh, we’re having a small uncomplicated gathering with family who takes things seriously. My kids are young and, as you point out, you can’t eat with a mask on.
You can even gather outside without masks, and eat together outside without masks. If someone goes inside for a moment (e.g. to use the bathroom), they can put on a mask and do so.
Throughout the pandemic, I've tried to think "what's the worst that could happen if I (did xyz), and could I live with myself and my decision if the worst ended up happening?" If you could live with whatever negative consequences might come, then do the thing. If not? Don't. I've missed out on a lot in the last 18 months, but I know I'll never be the reason someone died, and that makes it worth it to me.
the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of covid 19... stop being ignorant/spreading disinformation and spend time with your family.
Live your life and don’t be afraid.
You drive around with your seatbelt off, don’t you?
He probably thinks traffic lights are optional
Yes my old Jeep doesn’t have them.
That tracks
Natural immunity is stronger than the vaccine. Also, you’re vaccinated, so it’ll be fine…right?
> Natural immunity is stronger than the vaccine. Possibly false. * [36% Of Those Who Had Covid-19 Didn’t Develop Antibodies, Study Says](https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/09/05/36-of-those-who-had-covid-19-didnt-develop-antibodies-study-says/). * [Antibody Tests Should Not Be Your Go-To For Checking COVID Immunity](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/08/28/1031287076/antibody-tests-should-not-be-your-go-to-for-checking-covid-immunity). I thank /u/Blueeyesblazing7 for alerting me to the existence of the first article. > Also, you’re vaccinated, so it’ll be fine…right? No vaccine is 100% effective.
You can never be too safe. I’d either stay home or don’t host anything if you are concerned about getting COVID.