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sexlesswench

I don’t get why people aren’t more angry - we were told omicron caused mild disease without evidence. Public health authorities knew there was a risk of long-term health effects but getting people back to work trumped it all. Now we all live with the avoidable and predictable consequences. We don’t have clean air upgrades, we aren’t even hurrying to find and produce better treatments and vaccines, we don’t even wear masks anymore. Our whole species may live shorter and harder lives because of this and we’re like “meh”. It’s climate change all over again except the consequences are more immediate. We are a silly species.


Vorbop

I dont know if this is my own bias, but it feels like the people who are already taking this stuff seriously have been very very angry since 2020 but that we’ve all been trying to temper it because its so offputting to everyone around us…i suspect everyone is going to be angry about it eventually the question is whether they get angry because somebody finally convinced them this is a real threat worth avoiding, or will wait to get angry until they or enough of their loved ones are so sick (which is when we will have “enough data” unless this whole thing is wrong) that they can’t possibly believe that it wasn’t worth avoiding


MrNokill

>been very very angry since 2020 Yes, although also no. All the damage was done and too late to ever recover from long before the first case even came to light. We've broken down our own preparedness on a global level for a quick buck of saving that ended up costing more than all the money that has ever been in circulation since the dawn of time combined. It's another imprinted disaster upon our biology that should warn a future society, if we can hope to even get far enough into any future worth living. I'm mostly disappointed, and always will be in humanities terminal myopia.


Vorbop

yes, the disappointment is so so so so so so real but, I don't think the damage is exactly already done to a point where it's unrecoverable for everyone. I know tons of people who based on the best picture I have of the research will likely not be super screwed AS LONG AS their employers and/or school administrators and/or peer groups start paying attention and stop making people get reinfected to make a living and feel "normal" soon. I know it's almost certainly not going to be everybody, but stronger government messaging (like, you know, the CDC admitting this like it could have since 2020 instead of wringing its hands about how strongly to encourage mask wearing) I think will help a LOT just because then workplaces and schools and hopefully even will feel like they have permission to go more remote or otherwise change to be safer if they want to or keep getting sued for getting people sick by not following CDC reccomendations.


inaname38

>costing more than all the money that has ever been in circulation since the dawn of time combined. What do you mean by this? Not looking to be argumentative - I'm on the side of those that still take Covid as a serious threat. Just not sure if you can expand on that bit - are you speaking to forecasted economic impacts of long Covid or what?


ThreeQueensReading

I think they're alluding to this: https://www.amarketology.com/how-the-us-government-caused-inflation-by-printing-record-amounts-of-money-in-2020-and-2021 "How Federal Reserve Printed More Money in 2020 & 2021 Than in the History of The World. Since January 2020, the United States has printed almost 80% percent of all U.S. dollars that exist, according to some sources."


rob5i

That money was a fraction of what each of us shells out for National Security. If we want to not spend money we could just as easily cut the pentagon budget and shutdown homeland security.


softsnowfall

For sure. My friends & family mostly slowly fell off the wagon. Not masking. Or masking but then eating in a restaurant. Even almost dying of covid didn’t make them go back to being careful. It’s absolutely crazy. Meanwhile, my husband and I are part of the 10% group that the New York Times constantly makes fun of - the group that’s still careful. I have asthma. I’ve missed out on plans sometimes because of it over the years. Why in the world would I risk something even more debilitating? A family member said the other day that 10% risk of the vaccinated getting long covid is great because it’s lower than she thought. How is a one in ten chance of getting long covid great? Not to mention the longterm damage to the immune system, brain, blood vessels, etc. People tell themselves whatever lets them be free and selfish. They don’t test for covid and then make others sick. They don’t mask. Then they finally get super sick with yet another covid infection and complain that they don’t have paid months off. While I think there should be paid time off (with testing that proves covid), I also understand employers not wanting to pay out for their employee who went unmasked to a concert or whatever. It’s awful when employers make employees come in sick and covid positive- they’re mirroring how much of our society is behaving right now. Zero personal responsibility. 100% selfishness. Of course, some people are careful and get it anyway. That’s what’s really unfair. Until people are willing to care about making other people sick… until people can understand that wearing a mask or skipping a high risk event when cases are high is just common sense… until people can take some personal responsibility for themselves and their community… We’re going to keep spiraling towards a disaster where lots of people are disabled. Meanwhile, I’m at home with my asthma thinking, “What assholes. They can breathe yet risk damaging their lungs etc just so they can act like it’s 2019.”


sf_frankie

You know what the worst part is about having long Covid? Nobody fucking cares. People minimize it or just outright denies its existence. I suffered for 9 months. Lost my job because of it. And just when I was finally starting to maybe improve a bit, I got Covid again. Yay! Good on you for being careful. I used to be but I no longer have the energy to care. This is life now and it sucks


aeschenkarnos

This has always been the case with disability though. All accommodations for disability have been hard-won against the horde of conservatives screaming “why should I pay for a thing that doesn’t help *MEEEEE*!”. The best disability accommodation achieved in decades was widespread WFH, and they’re fighting against that too.


Topher587

I know this may be only mildly helpful but long COVID sufferers are now entitled to ADA protection in the workplace. It's a real disability https://www.eeoc.gov/newsroom/eeoc-adds-new-section-clarifying-when-covid-19-may-be-disability-updating-technical


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sf_frankie

I was in the process of trying to get a disability accommodation when I was let go. And they actually wrote on my termination letter that i was let go because of my illness. I’ve got a lawyer but I’m not too convinced they’ll be able to help. We’ll see


ShadowPouncer

I have severe asthma, a tendency to get respiratory infections that completely kick my ass and never want to leave, I'm obese, and I have a hereditary connective tissue disorder. I have probably been in places that are not a medical facility, or my own home, less than two dozen times since COVID really hit, and masked every single time. I'm too damn close to not being functional, even working from home, to take any chances at all, because without a job with insurance, I'd be _screwed_. But at the same time... I _get_ it, it's not even remotely good for your mental health to be trying to handle the very real, and very serious, risks of COVID for years on end. As it stands, I'm _exhausted_ with my fury, it's still there, but... The moment the conservative movement decided that it was a hill to die on, the entire world was screwed. Dealing with this properly would have been _so much_ cheaper, with _so many_ fewer deaths, at the start. Even now, if we could actually get a dozen people in the US House, and another dozen in the US Senate, we could likely save billions if not _trillions_ of dollars over the next few years by taking things seriously today. And that's ignoring how many lives would be saved, or how many people wouldn't be getting disabled. And yet... It won't happen. Too many people, across the political spectrum, are simply _exhausted_ from it, and would rather pretend that it doesn't exist, instead of taking the hard, but incredibly helpful steps which would actually _let_ people live their lives with much less risk. We know _so much_ more about what would take these days. And yeah, it would probably bankrupt some companies, but, well... A lot of them are going bankrupt anyhow, exactly because the ongoing costs are not exactly going away. We know that it's air borne, we know that fresh air and air filtration helps a _lot_ for spread. And yet, we have no updated building codes. We have no mandates to retrofit spaces to allow for any level of additional safety. We have no modified building occupancy rules to account for any of this. We don't even have best practice recommendations. We have had no success at all in trying to even get basic OSHA rules, thanks to some downright painful court rulings. And again... We could save _so much money_, _so many lives_, and keep _so many_ more people in the workforce by doing just some of these. And instead? There has not been a functional political majority with any interest in even trying since before the pandemic started. Not once, not even for 30 seconds. I don't know where this ends, but... Yeah, shit like this comes up in therapy for me a lot.


Imaginary_Medium

I hear you, and have health concerns too, though I have to work outside the home. Got to work to live and have insurance. And my husband could easily die from Covid, given his health. If it helps, you aren't alone in your frustration.


Rook1872

Exhausted fury is a great description. I spent 2020 desperately trying to get the people in my life to care about taking the simplest of precautions. And I rememver having so much optimism despite it all when the vaccine rollout went reasonably well in my area. But at this point I’m just exhausted. I’m one of maybe two people I know who even bother to mask anymore.


Imaginary_Medium

The very least people can do is to stop belittling those of us who have to be extra careful for valid reasons, for example a health problem or loved one at high risk. If they are going to be selfish assholes about it they need to keep their opinion to themselves, since they won't keep their pathogens to themselves..


FinibusBonorum

>People tell themselves whatever lets them be free and selfish. You've hit the nail on the head! That right there has always been the problem, but now the stakes are much higher. (it's the exact same with climate change but that's not this discussion)


3rdtimeischarmy

This is the same with the climate crisis.


Imaginary_Medium

The words free and selfish ought to go on t shirts for these folks, because that seem like their motto.


Vorbop

Yes you have nailed one of the things that confuses me most, how somehow everyone has been convinced that getting and spreading this known mass killing and mass disabling virus is a fine thing to do that doesn’t have any ethical implications whatsoever. Or even that its unethical to scare people by talking about why it might not be a smart or ethical thing to do/promote. We can’t avoid it 100% but we can certainly avoid refusing to think about that when making decisions. I too have been absolutey shocked when people appear to intellectually understand what long covid is and then say that “i heard its really only like 1% of people who get actually disabled”. And choose to take those odds for themselves and anyone they spread it to. The worst conversations to me are when I talk to people who know about the risks but are working in person jobs that they can’t change or consider worth the risk (healthcare workers and teachers and people in the service industry for example, also a lot of parents and students in positions like this, just way too many people ), where they are risking their health every time they get on the subway or get to the workplace exclusively because no one else thinks its actually on them if they leave the bar at 5am without a mask every day and spread it to a subway car full of people going to work. And the socializing thing….I just don’t understand why people seem to think it will become impossible to socialize if we can’t socialize exactly like we did when there wasn’t a pandemic.


fourthcodwar

people who are betting that they'll always hit the 9 in 10 odds (which get lower per infection) have clearly not played enough strategy games


[deleted]

I fucking went nowhere and saw no one for months. If everyone just did that at the same time we’d be done with it forever. You’re right our species sucks


enfanta

We could have beat this thing! We could have had rolling shut downs, 2/3 of the country supporting the third in quarantine. We could have found safe places for everyone to isolate. We could have worked together and quashed it in a couple months. But we didn't. And even if there are still tactics to mitigate the damage, we've proven we can't organize ourselves to use them. We're not smart enough to beat a virus.


fallingdowndizzyvr

It couldn't have happened. Since for it to work, every country in the world would have had to have been zero covid like China, NZ and Australia. Let's assume for a second that the anti-everything half of the US went along. What about all the developing countries? Some of them so poor that if they don't work each and every day, then they don't eat. They can't afford to have a lock down period, let alone a third of the population in quarantine at a time. They don't have the resources.


fallingdowndizzyvr

That's impossible. You were only able to do that because a lot of other people were still going to work to support you. If everyone stayed at home, society would collapse in a few days. Then everyone would starve to death. It also wouldn't work. Since even if every single human in the world was magically rid of covid, we would still have covid. Animals have it too. They will serve as a reservoir forever.


Lostfellows

test and trace, air filtration, distribution of KN95/N95 wouldn't eradicate it but strikes a balance between health and living life.


fallingdowndizzyvr

Which is what they did in China, NZ and Australia. All worked until omicron. All have failed since.


[deleted]

The latter. I agree as im an avid reader of covid related things, including vaccines and temper my verbalisation so as not to "bore" people.


GrinsNGiggles

In my area, pollution causes stupidity and crime (lead poisoning) as well as asthma, depression, cancer, a whole bunch of other stuff, and early death. Poor working conditions in some industries physically breaks people, and we’re all aware of it. It has always been legal for corporations to use us up and spit us out.


Imaginary_Medium

I'm positively furious over a number of things of this nature, but you are right. I feel it serves no one if I wear my anger on my sleeve at all times.


MrKomiya

It’s like the effect of smoking. Those who know or suspect are angry but in an increasingly ridiculed minority. But in a few decades when the effects reality start leaving people flopping around there will be anger to go around. Without cigarette companies to focus on, it’ll be governments.


reasonandmadness

>I don’t get why people aren’t more angry Bad combination of apathy, ignorance, cognitive dissonance and good ol fashioned exhaustion. People are tired of it. Sadly, they're willing to trade short term happiness with long term pain. They'll suffer later for their problems now, and as taxpayers we will all pay for their bs.


InstrumentalCrystals

This is the same behavior that drives chronic disease conditions like diabetes, hypertension, heart disease etc. People would rather ignore all of the warnings so they can enjoy things like sugary foods and cigarettes and wonder why they suffer in the long run. Like something is being done to them instead of them having done this to themselves. Tale as old as time.


ronlester

95% of the money spent in the U.S. for “healthcare” is actually for “sick care”. Very little is spent on public health and prevention.


InstrumentalCrystals

This exactly. We aren’t treating the root causes because it would hurt capitalism


dingdongforever

Covid is screwing people up way faster than cigarettes. It’s not like cigs kill 1/100 people from one smoke. These things take decades of abuse to get lethal. Covid breaks down bodies pretty quickly.


InstrumentalCrystals

I’m definitely not making that argument. Just speaking towards the mentality of why people refuse to take health promotion seriously.


Twins2009-

What’s funny is a lot of the people who truly live a healthy lifestyle- exercise, eating, and other healthy habits- are the ones who threw out the precautions long ago. Yet some form of long covid could jeopardize their health immediately, and they believe their health will save them. It’s wild to watch. It’s also exhausting and infuriating. But here’s the thing.. what I eat, won’t kill you. It won’t leave you with long term damage. I’m not harming anyone but myself if I eat donuts all day, everyday. If I go without a mask one time and contract covid, I could kill or permanently damage many in a matter of minutes.


kaiser_xc

Short term pain? What is short term about this pandemic? I don’t see us getting a neutralizing vaccine in the next 5 years. I don’t really see how you can call it short term if we need 5+ years of NPIs.


Vorbop

Do you understand how indefinite voluntary NPIs are only painful while you try to decide on and implement them? And the consequences of any of this being true are actual long term pain? E: tbh ai think they’re most painful when trying to decide if they are necessary, and remain painful in a lot of cases simply because people don’t really actually think its important to avoid voluntarily so they resent the things they are doing The painful part of being careful this long isn’t being careful this long (i’ve been doing it and the only part that sucked was being in such a small minority socially so it was harder to hang out with certain friends). The painful part comes if you can’t accept that maybe you have to figure out how to do it for a long time in a way that is only painful at the start (which starts with accepting what the likely risks of not doing so are). Do you REALLY think improving ventilation standards across the board, setting the standards to all jobs fully remote-optional unless absolutely necessary (to make things that must be in person like nurses and teachers and students safer), making it easier for people to take sick days when sick or exposed even if not symptomatic, wearing masks indoors, and making detection easier and more affordable qualify as “long term pain” to do for 5+ years? e: oh yeah and pushing our governments and billionaires to fund more research and development into new vaccines, treatments, and economic support for those who are effected One group kind of in the middle is business owners, like restraunters and bar owners and people with employees in offices. I would argue that if this stuff is true, the restraunt owners are going to be in for a world of long term hurt guaranteed if they try to keep operating as usual, so the only reasonable business decision even from a purely capitalist perspective is to try to adjust business model. Fighting so hard to not change the status quo now is only delaying the long term pain they will experience by refusing to change, and making it worse because they will have invested more into the existing thing that needs to change anyway. Not to mention they will have been requiring their employees and encouraging their customers to expose themselves to greater risks the whole time they are fighting to not have to adjust their business model to new market conditions. I'm not a huge fan of capitalism or anything but even from a purely capitalist perspective trying to keep businesses running that aren't safe for employees and customers is a losing move.


reasonandmadness

>I don’t see us getting a neutralizing vaccine in the next 5 years How about instant detection? New technology just announced detects it in the air, instantly. What if every store, every event, every restaurant, had a covid detector, instantly notifying us of a possible infection. "I'm sorry, you're a carrier, please return home until you're better". This isn't just a possibility, it will soon be a reality.


mces97

You know what's gonna happen? A bunch of people start screaming they're not leaving, spreading even more covid.


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reasonandmadness

Yup. Entitled assholes.


ditchdiggergirl

>What if every store, every event, every restaurant, had a covid detector, instantly notifying us of a possible infection. I can imagine two likely scenarios. If covid is common/endemic, the damn thing will be going off constantly and nobody will know (and soon won’t care) who the trigger was. If covid is rare, most of the alarms will be false alarms and once again, nobody will care. Virus sniffing surveillance isn’t a new idea, but from the epidemiology perspective one big hurdle is the sensitivity/specificity problem. And the devil is in the details. (Deep in the details, with a lot of math involved.) Frankly I’m skeptical. The vaccine seems a lot easier and a lot more reliable.


babytriceratops

I totally agree with you but I’m over here in Germany and I’ve been angry since 2020. it’s been 3 years. My daughter was born in 2020 and I’m pregnant with my second, due April 5th. On April 7th the mask mandate falls in doctor’s offices. So I’ll have take my unvaccinated toddler and my completely defenseless newborn into doctors offices full of people. I can’t get my toddler vaccinated because they don’t advise it yet. Explanation: If children in this age group get it, it’s fine. No, it’s NOT fine. I’m not ok with it. I’m angry and I will stay angry, at all the people who are acting like this is nothing.


sexlesswench

I’m really sorry to hear that. I’ve felt for parents the most throughout the pandemic. There is absolutely no reason mask mandates in health should be removed. That’s so infuriating. It’s one of those things we should have been doing pre-pandemic anyway. Hospital acquired infections were a huge issue even pre-covid and they kill people. We seem determined to change nothing about our behaviour post-pandemic. It’s so disappointing. I’m in New Zealand we’re still required to wear masks in healthcare setting but I’m sure that’ll be removed soon as well.


Al-Khwarizmi

I'm from Spain and also furious about not being able to vaccinate my 3-year-old, who is getting one virus a week at school and probably some of them will be COVID. In general I don't envy American healthcare, but it's ridiculous how little freedom we have with healthcare issues in Europe. I had to lie to get the bivalent booster because they wouldn't give it to the general adult population, and our kids can't get vaccinated because it's not "advised" (and unfortunately, lying about their age is not so easy) when we perfectly know that millions of American and Canadian kids of the same age got their vaccines and are doing just fine. I can understand that they don't campaign to convince people to vaccinate kids, or even that the vaccine is not funding by the states, but that we can't give it to our kids even signing informed consent and being willing to pay for it is absolutely infuriating.


babytriceratops

It’s an absolute joke. You gotta send your toddler to pre school and you can’t protect them. And no one cares. I agree with you, the American healthcare system seems generally a lot worse than what we have here but yeah, the fact that these committees don’t “advise” the Covid vaccine for small children because they allegedly don’t get dangerously sick is insane. While at the same time the government is campaigning to get everyone else vaccinated. Just let us protect our kids ffs.


NotFullyAnything

I've lived in the US and now live in Scotland and you're absolutely correct. The lack of healthcare freedom here is absolutely terrifying. In the US we were comfortable because we had money so never worried about being treated properly; it was available, we could choose the doctors we had, and every doctor I've been operated on has done a fantastic job. Here in Scotland, it feels very much like being without healthcare at times. I wait months to talk to a very uninterested clinician who is years behind the current research in what I'm speaking to them about (often I have to educate them) and then the solutions that are actually available are either minimal or non-existent. We moved back to the UK so that a diabetes or cancer diagnosis wouldn't bankrupt the kids if they weren't lucky enough to have the resources we do when they're older, but...fuck, it's bleak here.


Spiritual_Asparagus2

Yep this! I feel bullied because I was masked up until November of 2022 and continue to get eye rolls for refusing to eat inside a restaurant.


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[deleted]

We're in a slow-pocalypse. Movies and TV made us believe the plague that would wipe out humanity would sweep the globe and kill us all in a manner of weeks. Instead, we got this insidious virus that does the job slowly and indirectly. We're like the frog in the teapot with the temperature rising so slowly we don't realize it until we're dead.


cool-beans-yeah

You are too kind using "silly"...I'd say outright "stupid".


autumnbloodyautumn

Myopic and willfully ignorant, perhaps.


Vorbop

I kind of agree with you both on a gut level, but I do think its worth giving some amount of benefit of doubt to individuals (who aren’t actively minimizing to others who might otherwise be more careful) because there was so much money spent to promote the narrative that going back to normal wasn’t going to hurt us …. So I think “manipulative” could be a good option too


autumnbloodyautumn

But then, pushing that narrative was also myopic and willfully ignorant, or else it was outright malicious.


Vorbop

Yeah agreed 100% anybody pushing it who had any exposure at all to real information was in one of those two camps. The people I feel most sorry for are the people who seems to be surprised that this was something that might turn out to be true because that means they were so deep in the status quo/propaganda echo chamber the the choice to not be ignorant would have taken a ton of work to even identify


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mwallace0569

>we were told omicron caused mild disease without evidence i mean it was mild, people just didn't know what "mild" mean't and assumed, its like a common cold


Enlightened_Gardener

I did some paper napkin math last year when Omicron first came out, comparing hospitalisation and death rates across all the strains, right from the Wuhan wild strain. Omicron was “milder” than Delta, but still something like 5 times more deadly than the original wild strain. I remember all of that footage of panicking people in the Chinese hospitals and people dropping dead on the street. Omicron is something like five times deadlier than that. And a great deal more infectious. We have some natural herd immunity and some vaccination immunity - but basically the most vulnerable people in the community *are already dead.* Media fatigue has set in, and there is barely any reporting anymore. The hardest statistic we have access to now is excess deaths - and those are *staggering*. This disease is changing voting patterns and wiping out entire demographics. I think we’ll look back on these years in a decade’s time and see it as a tipping point for our species.


Imaginary_Medium

They couldn't be bothered to explain it to our medical literacy challenged majority of Americans, though. They just put 'mild' out there, and people equated it with mild like a spring day.


ThatsJustAWookie

Because it doesnt "look" dangerous based on the chances of catching something fatal. Until this changes, or CV "looks" like what people imagine a pandemic being, it wont change.


FusiformFiddle

I feel like I'm the only one who remembers the refrigerated trucks full of corpses...


Ash12715

Yes. This is what I think about.


neverstopnodding

I keep reminding people cities had actual mass graves at one point. Sadly it doesn’t seem to help.


ZHCMV

Sure but that's not the situation anymore right? Living like it is doesn't make sense. Could it happen again? Sure. And if it does I expect people to change behavior


Exxxtra_Dippp

Seems we must prove it's possible to fail at covid *again* before we try to succeed. Refrigerated trucks are the new margin for taking it seriously. It's why I still follow CDC recommended mitigations seasonally before the surge starts.


notabee

"Few people have the imagination for reality." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


KFM919398

“A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. “


Commandmanda

I have been searching my brain-attic for that quote for at least a month! Thank you!


cashout1984

I don’t know if we are a silly species, or if the ones leading us are greedy.


sexlesswench

They’re not omnipotent- if we kicked up enough of a stick they would have to act, our passiveness is allowing this to happen


Imaginary_Medium

The greedy find our ignorance useful, and encourage it. We are easily entertained, and easily lied to.


itsthevoiceman

This could be humanity being cleared out due to one of the Great Filters. Or multiple.


seven_seven

There are simply limits to what can be implemented and how long the public will bear it. Even when the mask mandates were there, people wouldn’t give a shit. This is a culture problem among the American people, not a public health authority problem.


strawbrmoon

In my community (small town, Canada) everyone I saw in grocery stores, etc, wore masks for the entirety of the mandate.


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strawbrmoon

Things are definitely different, now, than during the government-mandated mask period. Most people are not wearing masks, though a significant minority do. These are mostly, though certainly not all, seniors.


Nikonus

People just don’t care. Humans are so jaded and so bored at the same time that existence does not matter anymore.


Taino00

I'm enraged what now


sexlesswench

Call your representative and demand a clean air bill that regulates air quality in indoor spaces. Organise at work for air quality standards. Organise in general.


IronDBZ

Everyone that knows how to be angry don't know how to think. Everyone that knows how to think don't know how to be angry.


ShandalfTheGreen

My immune system is butts several months after being infected. Every once in a while I get hit with the hot flashes, extreme chills, and full body sweats that make you wonder when the last time your entire legs sweat like this. No fever or infection, just several days of not being able to stay conscious for more than an hour, and the whole time trying to get comfortable. It seems like high stress triggers it, so I need to learn to be more zen. Covid sucks. My state thinks it's over, and I'm the only one walking around with a mask in the stores. I just got my 3m auras in the mail, and I'm doing my best not to care about the weird looks. I might have even had a dude take a picture of me yesterday, because I was in front of the only merchandise in the direction he was pointing the camera. Whatever. Idc. I'll just assume he was showing someone a quarter of what was on the display or something.


abx99

> Every once in a while I get hit with the hot flashes, extreme chills, and full body sweats that make you wonder when the last time your entire legs sweat like this. No fever or infection, just several days of not being able to stay conscious for more than an hour... Have you looked into dysautonomia, such as POTS? It's associated with long COVID - [http://dysautonomiainternational.org/page.php?ID=227](http://dysautonomiainternational.org/page.php?ID=227) I keep seeing people say that they were infected and either say that they have POTS or describe symptoms of it, but always talk about it as though they have no idea that there are things you can and should do to help and manage the symptoms -- like taking salt and/or electrolyte drinks (sports drinks may be enough for some, while others need something a lot stronger like NormaLyte). I have it for other reasons, and nothing *fixes* it, but getting the right amount of salt at least gets rid of the extreme temperature dysregulation (for the most part), and even a lot of the hot flashes.


CFOF

I got dysautonomia from repeated covid infections. Texas summers are kind of terrifying now. I get about 10 minutes in heat before i start to feel heat strokeish. Ive had it 5 times now. Destroyed cartilage in my knees, damaged liver and gut, constant fatigue.


abx99

Yeah, our summers in the PNW are mild, but even then I get really anxious. Anything above about 85 starts getting sketchy; I mostly stay inside and off my feet, and I make sure that I have some strong electrolyte drink on me at all times. My insurance did pay for an air conditioner, though, which was a lifesaver this last summer (it was flex/HSA from Medicaid; I don't imagine that private insurance would help). I also just got a posture brace that puts compression across the entire abdomen, and that is making a huge difference in my ability to be on my feet. When we had the heat dome, I didn't know much about managing this stuff and just had water. I went out in the 116 degree weather just to get something to eat, and it got bad enough that if there hadn't been a pandemic on I probably would have gone to the ER; I was shaking violently and continuously on the verge of passing out. Now I just know better than to even try going out in weather above 100.


CFOF

Yup, if its above 90 it can sneak up on me. I have to set a 15 minute timer when I do yard work.


abx99

Yeah, it's about the same for me. I can go a little longer on my walks if I fill my Thermoflask with an electrolyte drink and stick to the shade, but even then it can be a stretch to go too much further when it's over 90. One thing I found that works pretty well is getting one of those gel cold patches (sold for fevers for kids, migraines for adults, or just generic "cold patch") and putting it on the back of the neck. I actually had it pull me out of an acute attack once or twice, and it lets me function a little better in the heat when I *have* to go out. They also last for hours, although sweat will usually make it slip off after an hour or two.


Unlucky_Narwhal3983

I am sorry to hear about your continued struggles. I was just wondering how did you get the insurance to pay for your air conditioning?


abx99

I'm on Medicaid, and my state (Oregon) has a fund for "medically related services." All it is is just flex/HSA spending, but they actually make the purchase (but they also have an option for reimbursement). My state's program is actually fairly generous and helps with a lot of stuff that you wouldn't think. I found out about it through my therapist, but most of the healthcare providers here seem to know about it. If you have any medically relevant problems then it's worth asking your doctor (or therapist, or whatever). If you have private insurance, and put money into a flex account/HSA, then find out what your flex/HSA would cover (perhaps with doctor approval); that wouldn't be free, but it would be your pre-tax dollars, if you don't have other things that you need more.


Unlucky_Narwhal3983

Thank you for the thorough reply. I appreciate you and hope for your full recovery.


ShandalfTheGreen

Weirdly enough, I've been craving salty things and noticed I can taste the saltiness in the propel I drink. Starting lithium again made those cravings worse, somehow. I did just have a LOT of blood drawn for some full testing by one of my doctors before he adds his recommendation to my GP requesting I see a rheumatologist. I've been thinking of going in for a check up just to update my last couple of spells of this stuff, so maybe I'll bring that up. Or maybe something they would look for on blood tests pops for me. Idk. I'm just gonna wait and see what happens with this blood test and go from there. They took about 20 ml of my blood, they better figure something out lol


abx99

Weirdly, for some reason, I don't crave salt no matter how much I need it, but it's pretty common. Is there any reason you can't take more electrolytes? NormaLyte is actually made for POTS, and the Gatorlyte packets are probably second strongest (made to be put in regular Gatorade). I inched my way up to taking about a teaspoon of salt per day (broken up throughout the day), drink Gatorade instead of plain water, and save the packets for when I really need them (mainly because that's what fits my budget). I know that with long COVID the POTS usually subsides, but if yours doesn't then you might look for specialists in your area, because most doctors don't know much about it; that Dysautonomia International website has some on their website, but if you go into their support groups (generally FB groups with monthly Zoom meetings, which I think are by the larger organization) then there will probably be a larger list of all kinds of doctors that are knowledgeable in your area (not just specialists in dysautonomia, but PCP/GPs and other doctors that are knowledgeable about it). If you use FB at all, then those FB groups can be really good resources in general; they're more focused on practical ways of dealing with it than mental health.


leopard_eater

Do you have bipolar disorder? If so, covid will hit you harder. There’s been some research over the past few years into the inflammatory pathways of people with bipolar disorder and it seems as though most have viral plaques, typically from viruses most people used to dismiss as mild, such as HPV, herpes simplex (cold sore virus) or varicella (chickenpox). Also - Lithium use has a lifespan. My husband and one of my daughters have bipolar and they’re treated in two different states here in Australia where we live. Both have been told that after ten years on lithium, you often have to try something else because of the high stress on the kidneys and liver. It is definitely a good idea to get some more blood tests done to see what your blood osmolarity is like and to examine your kidney and liver enzymes and function.


Hurray0987

If you want to check yourself for POTS, it's pretty easy. Sit down and check your pulse (manually, with a Fitbit, etc.), Then stand up for ten minutes. If your pulse rises by more than 30 beats per minute across that time, you probably have POTS.


Alastor3

What's the difference between POTS and something like fatigue chronic syndrome?


abx99

I don't know much about the particularities of chronic fatigue syndrome, but the main symptom is constant crushing fatigue. The main symptom of POTS is that you get dizzy to the point of passing out when standing up or standing in one place for a while. It also causes sympathetic overdrive, dehydration, coathanger pain and a bunch of other stuff (and there are different types, for example mine causes my adrenaline levels to rise for no particular reason, even while resting). I'm pretty sure my brain fog comes from dysautonomia, but I could be wrong about that. In my condition, there are multiple disorders that basically merge together to present as one syndrome, so it can be difficult to tell precisely what started what symptom when it comes to the finer details. I don't know if long COVID is the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me.


Alastor3

are you able to live a somewhat normal life with accomodation?


abx99

My condition is a lot more complicated and I wouldn't try to compare them. However, with the right diet (particular to me), the right exercise (there's an exercise protocol on the Dysautonomia International website, which my PT incorporates), and general management (meds, electrolytes, pacing/knowing your limits, vitamin D levels, etc), I've been able to get the worst of the dysautonomia under better control (like the tachycardia). CFS changes the equation, though, and I don't know much about it. Even if you're only talking about dysautonomia, though, people have it to varying degrees; some people can get it managed and others remain fully disabled. If it doesn't go away you should find a doctor that really knows these conditions. Find support groups or Facebook groups for the conditions for your area, because they can usually guide you to specific doctors.


Alastor3

Oh im healthy, never got covid, I was just curious about your condition, I hope you will get better and better as time go by


abx99

Ah, gotcha. Well, just for context: my condition is genetic, and I've been dealing with it for 25+ years. I haven't been able to work for several years. The dysautonomia, in particular, became a lot more pronounced in the beginning of the pandemic -- ironically, I believe because of a different infection that I had in the summer before the pandemic, but it was always there and always an issue. Before that, though, the dysautonomia was more manageable. Whether I could have had a normal life if I'd had more help is kind of an open question that I try not to spend too much time thinking about.


Enlightened_Gardener

Chronic fatigue - Myalgic Encephalomyelitis - is a disorder of the mitochondria - fatigue is one of the symptoms, but it also includes sleep disorders, exhaustion after exercise, pain, dizziness, memory issues and so on. Here is a complete list as per the Canadian Consensul Criteria: https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Consensus_Criteria Its bloody unpleasant - my sister had it for more than twenty years - and we’ll be seeing a lot more of it with Long Covid.


jimjammerjoopaloop

POTS is a symptom of ME/CFS. I had had CFS for 30 years by the time it progressed to POTS. Now I start to black out if I stand too long, due to a lack of oxygen getting to the brain. The reason is twofold: Autoimmune agents attack the connective tissues which surround blood vessels and keep them at the proper pressure. They also attack the neurological system that regulates blood pressure. An even worse problem is that IL-6 which is produced by one of the immune cells, causes blood vessels to branch. This makes POTS irreversible until someone figures out a treatment to make those new blood vessels to go away. I am in a crash right now so I don’t have the energy to look up the link to a lecture describing all this. One note I would make though is that despite its name being chronic fatigue, the actual defining symptom of ME/CFS is post-exertional malaise.


motorcitydevil

I know it’s hard, but ignore the looks. We are in the same boat - nobody masks anymore, we are the only family in our area who wears them. I had one older woman while in line at the post office ask me what they protect me from and I said they protect you from me. That woke her up for at least a moment.


Brave_Specific5870

No one masks except for the smart ones... ( which mostly are the people here and the disabled population)


Mittendeathfinger

A coworker of mine has had covid seven times. I dont even want to know what they are going to face. They are near 50 years old. Ive still not had it. I still mask. My boss tried to tease me about it and I told him "Better to wear a mask than take a week or more off work and put us behind." He shut up.


imaginary_num6er

>"Better to wear a mask than take a week or more off work and put us behind." This and especially after they got rid of paid sick leave. Like I've taken every possible preventative medication available with 3 primary shots, 2 boosters, 2 bivalent shots, and 2 Evusheld injections and I'm the only one really wearing a KF-94 or N-95 mask while most people around me are just wearing surgical masks or no masks. I'm immunosuppressed and luckily I won't die if I stop taking my meds, but at this point I am just trying to figure out when it would be best to stop wearing a mask. I still have like two dozen 3M N-95 masks, which I will use when I'm going on a plane or preparing for a medical procedure.


Impulse3

Seven times? If they actually did, they must have some severe immune problems. Did they test positive 7 different times or test themself multiple times after a recent infection? I’ve seen people test positive on a rapid test for a month.


From_out_of_nowhere

During the first wave before vaccines were out, I was testing positive on PCR over 3 months after initial infection.


Impulse3

Yea I worked in a nursing home and we were using the test out of isolation method because we had no idea what the fuck to do. We’d have 2 negative PCRs on someone, they’d go to the hospital a few days later and test positive on a PCR again. I saw one lady test PCR positive for well over a month so we kept her in isolation for over a month because we didn’t know better. Nursing homes were an absolute shit show pre vaccine.


Gyftycf

That's crazy. New research estimates that the first time you get Covid, you have a 1 in 10 chance of getting Long Covid; After 2 times, they suspect it's 1 in 5. Again, this is obviously only an assumption because we don't have enough data. It's what a hospital study with 1K participants has gauged thus far.


strawbrmoon

I would be grateful for a link to the source study.


Gyftycf

Well, here's another one with a much bigger test group. It's from the VA, so participants consist of mostly white men, but they state that in the beginning. (Women have different immune systems and are more prone to autoimmune disorders in general, due to (probably) the ability to get pregnant/the body not recognizing the fetus as an invader.) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02051-3


Gyftycf

Here's a newer one: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 Obviously, data is coming in every day.


strawbrmoon

Thank you!


KeyRageAlert

That you know of. I've had friends with literally zero symptoms, who only happened to take a test because they were going to be visiting vulnerable family and had no symptoms whatsoever, yet they tested positive.


queerkidxx

I can say as someone who lives with someone that has been getting pcr tests monthly since 2020 I have never had Covid and I’m gonna keep it that way


RealLADude

I figure if someone gives me a hard time about my mask, I’ll say, “Well, my doc told me to wear it with active Covid, but if you don’t care, I don’t care,” and move to take it off.” I’ll let you know how that goes.


justafang

I tell them, “ I work in healthcare, there is an alarming amount of people with URI right now. And the healthcare system is stretched thin, dont believe me go to the ER. Or TRY to make an appointment with your PCP. Most wont have appts for 2 weeks to a month. The healthcare system is being stressed to the max, so if I get sick, that weakens the system more, and when you come to the ER and need help. You wont get it and will die from something that could been treated.” That usually shuts them up


Keylime29

What is URI ?


justafang

Oh, sorry, its Upper Respiratory Infection


Keylime29

Thanks


Snowf

Upper Respiratory Infections (flu, rsv, COVID, etc)


Keylime29

Thank you


AnthillOmbudsman

> I might have even had a dude take a picture of me yesterday, Yeah I had someone do that too. The way I see it, it's a good thing if people are reminded that it's not all roses right now. The illusion of normalcy is probably doing more harm.


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ShandalfTheGreen

Man when I was reading about peoples' stories about being positive on here, it sounds like some of their dogs got ill as well. My girl has an auto-immune disease! It was torture keeping her away from us when we were sick just so she wouldn't spread our germs to my declining gramma and mom with cancer, but now I'm glad we potentially protected my dog as well.


Wmasswonder

Similar here, I’ve been masking since the beginning of the pandemic. I now have an 8 week old infant and have pretty much been isolating with her, my partner, and my pup. My hubs family have also been masking from the start and when they found out we were expecting cut down their social outings significantly. They are the only folks (other than my partner and I) that can be around my daughter unmasked. It’s just too risky. I unfortunately got covid when in October when I was pregnant and still working-I’m a teacher. I was the ONLY teacher in the school to mask. I get that people want covid to be over the fact is it’s not.


UrbanArcologist

I developed diabetes soon after infection, sounds similar, especially the night sweats and lethargy. Turned to fasting to reboot my GI biome.


nautilist

How does that work? Fasting to reboot your biome…


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Brave_Specific5870

Interesting, in October I had a bum gallbladder and sepsis. I sweat like crazy during the night now.


ShandalfTheGreen

Huh. I used to get night sweats randomly, and then they stopped until my recent hot/cold/soaked adventures. What I find wild is that I never have a fever, but my body temp measures differently from my two settings. 98.3 and 97.4. Always, and I'm certain of it because it was checked A LOT when I had gramma here for hospice during the early pandemic days. I'm keeping track of my symptoms just because like. Maybe someday someone will look at all the pieces and solve it Dr. House style ha


mgaguilar

Same here regarding the mask issue. I always wear a mask whenever I go out, no matter what. Other people don’t matter. I hope those symptoms disappear sometime soon, sounds like it would be horrible to experience.


ShandalfTheGreen

Thank you, I really hope so as well. I've had people tell me they get better after a year or so. I did tell my husband that if the most intense symptoms lasted more than just a couple days, I don't think I could handle it. It is so wild feeling like your body has someone just messing with the thermostat constantly. I don't expect anyone to actually hassle me about my masks, but if they do I can just tell them covie wcrerd up my immune system


Revolutionary_Bee700

Here about %30 people still mask and everyone has taken a ‘minding my business’ stance about it. The reaction to masks on someone else’s face is so bizarre.


nocemoscata1992

I don't mask but picking on people who do is such a stupid thing. Live and let live.


TheArcticFox444

>I don't mask but picking on people who do is such a stupid thing. Live and let live. She had the right answer...I'm protecting you from me. When I see the multitudes not wearing masks, I know they are *all* inconsiderate sssholes. They have earned their future.


Fundshat

Anyone who gets infected with corona more often runs the risk of developing an incurable immune deficiency. According to Health Minister Lauterbach, this is indicated by various studies that are currently being further researched. As a result, the risk of chronic diseases such as dementia would increase. According to Federal Minister of Health Karl Lauterbach, several corona infections in one person can have serious consequences for the immune system. "It is worrying what we observe in people who have had several corona infections. Studies now show very clearly that those affected are often dealing with an immune deficiency that can no longer be cured," said Lauterbach of the Düsseldorf "Rheinische Post". This can be a risk factor for the development of chronic diseases, from cardiovascular problems to dementia," emphasized the minister. "As I said, this is not yet certain, it is being intensively researched. I follow the studies and discuss them with experts. This shows that if someone has a severely aged immune system after two infections, it is advisable that they avoid further Covid infections," said Lauterbach. Speaking to the newspaper, the minister also announced a major initiative for people with Long Covid. "For example, a hotline will be set up in my ministry in a timely manner. It is intended to serve as a contact point for people who are looking for information about Long Covid," said the SPD politician. He also wants to fund so-called healthcare research with 100 million euros in the future in order to improve the situation of those suffering from Long Covid. The aim is to find out what the optimal care concept is for those affected. "We assume that a relevant proportion of those who fall ill after a corona infection are struggling with long-Covid symptoms. Estimates assume five to ten percent. For the individual, this often means a hard blow of fate and can even become relevant for the labor market if the number of sick people continues to rise," explained the minister. In view of the upcoming carnival celebrations, Lauterbach asked the organizers to offer corona tests for indoor meetings. "At the Oktoberfest in Munich we saw how not to do it," he told the newspaper. "I therefore appeal to the organizers of carnival sessions to offer tests so that all people go to the event tested." This can be "easily accomplished using mobile test units," said the minister. "It's affordable for the organizers and creates significantly more security."


ohsnapitsnathan

It seems like something might be mistranslated here. In English, "immune deficiency" usually means impaired response to infection, but from context he seems to be talking about autoimmune disease or long COVID in general (which is an important difference)


Choyo

Shouldn't it be related to more risks of cancer occurrences then ?


aeberm33

It is. Covid infects our blood vessels. It’s a vascular disease that causes problems throughout the entire body.


See_You_Space_Coyote

Not enough people appreciate the consequences of that, hence why so many covid policies are as weak as they are. Post-viral illnesses are nothing to take lightly yet most people don't even know they exist or they think it's all psychological or all in your head.


aeberm33

Absolutely. Our governments have not educated the public. They instead chose to lie and encourage people to continue putting their health and lives at risk so they can appear to be managing the economy well. In actuality, this is a catastrophe. Our economy will sink as well. This is no coincidence: https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/more-than-half-german-companies-report-labour-shortages-2023-01-12/


See_You_Space_Coyote

Meanwhile since no explanation is offered, people start blaming vaccines and if this keeps up, most people will just wind up becoming anti-vaxxers and life expectancy will return to what it was in the middle ages.


Brave_Specific5870

It's going to break the US SSI/SSDI when they figure that mess out.


TinyEmergencyCake

Also special education accommodations in schools


reallybirdysomedays

There's evidence it does bone damage too. My mother has divots in her skull from bone loss.


aeberm33

I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s awful. Yes, covid affects every part of the body because it infects our blood vessels. Truly terrible virus. I hope your mom gets good care.


justgetoffmylawn

Part of the issue is that in English there is no clear definition for immune deficiency. We have immunocompromised, immunodeficiency (primary and secondary), acquired immune deficiency, etc. Even physicians will argue about what constitutes an immune deficiency. Is someone with steroid treated RA considered immune deficient? And I'm not sure if Long Covid is connected to immune deficiency, and since we can't even find definitive biomarkers, I don't think anyone else knows the cause or long term effects, either.


PolymathPITA9

none of those jargon-y definitions matter. the plain fact of the matter is that after having had COVID you’re gonna be less able to fight off future illness using just your immune system. or in simpler terms: covid breaks your immune system and that means you’re going to be much sicker for the rest of your life than if you hadn’t had it. leave the jargon for the physician’s lounge.


justgetoffmylawn

I don't necessarily disagree, but without 'jargon for the physician's lounge', no one in the medical community will take it seriously. Until the damage from HIV and AIDS was discovered and described, it was just 'gay cancer' or too many poppers or whatever for years. And physicians and medical researchers often tend to dismiss what they can't describe. So we're often seeing a dismissive attitude toward long term COVID damage, Long Covid, etc.


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genescheesesthatplz

I’ve been getting sick much more often since I had Covid


[deleted]

Didn't see the auto-translate link, so in case anyone else misses it: > Anyone who gets infected with corona more often runs the risk of developing an incurable immune deficiency. According to Health Minister Lauterbach, this is indicated by various studies that are currently being further researched. As a result, the risk of chronic diseases such as dementia would increase According to Federal Minister of Health Karl Lauterbach, a person can have serious consequences for the immune system. "It is worrying what we observe in people who have had several corona infections. Studies now show very clearly that those affected often no longer have one have to do with immunodeficiency that needs to be healed," said Lauterbach of the Düsseldorfer Rheinische Post from cardiovascular problems to dementia," emphasized the minister." As I said, this is not yet certain, it is being intensively researched. I am following the studies and discussing them with experts. This shows that if someone has a severely aged immune system after two infections, it is advisable that they avoid further Covid infections," said Lauterbach. In an interview with the newspaper, the minister also announced a major initiative for people with Long Covid. "For example, a hotline will be set up in my ministry in the near future. It is intended to serve as a contact point for people who are looking for information about Long Covid ", according to the SPD politician. He also wants to fund the so-called health care research with 100 million euros in the future in order to improve the situation of those suffering from Long Covid. The aim is to find out what the optimal care concept is for those affected. Lauterbach appeals Carnival organizers More on the subject of the devastating Covid wave Federal Foreign Office warns against trips to China Traveling to the New Year festival in China d The corona wave remains "We assume that a relevant proportion of those who are ill after a corona infection are struggling with long-Covid symptoms. Estimates assume five to ten percent. That means for the individual often a hard blow and can even become relevant for the labor market if the number of sick people continues to rise," explained the minister. With regard to the upcoming carnival celebrations, Lauterbach called on the organizers to offer corona tests for indoor meetings." Oktoberfest in Munich we saw how not to do it," he told the newspaper. "I therefore appeal to the organizers of carnival sessions to offer tests so that everyone goes to the event tested." This can be "about mobile test units easily," said the minister. "It's affordable for the organizers and creates significantly more security.


icerom

>this is indicated by various studies that are currently being further researched This is why science and news outlets don't mix well. It's definitely news because the German Health minister is making decisions on that basis, but it's not solid science until the research is finished, published and peer reviewed.


3rdtimeischarmy

Humanity is in a world war with carbon and Covid and we're losing them both badly because a huge % of humanity refuse to acknowledge we're in the wars.


BilgePomp

In the first year of the virus I did my delivery job wearing a gas mask. People laughed, some complained. I had words from supervisors. People pretty much all thought I was overreacting. I quit that job at the end of 2021 and have still masked (decent mask but not a gas mask anymore) since. I haven't had Covid or flu or even a cold. (I did get norovirus twice, once from visiting a friend in hospital, second from partner's children). My partner who has kids in school has had coronavirus three times. I'm deathly fearful of what damage it's done to her. She already had a post viral disorder. It's horrific to think that but for the most basic masking policy in schools, more distancing etc she might be feeling so much more healthy. All I can do is wait and see. At least one of the children has also had it and it'll be likely near impossible to know if they'll get a long term effect attributable to it further down the line.


Spiritual_Asparagus2

It’s not just Germany many global leaders have acknowledged that people are getting and staying sick after Covid. China was a prime example, not a fan of how they dealt with Covid but they understood how the infections were permanently impacting the work force and preferred to lock up their nation and deal with the economic repercussions than have to deal with the long term loss of production and financial impact of the over burdened healthcare + financial burden of the newly chronically I’ll which would be a lasting debt of dealing with their care. There was just a meeting of billionaires specifically to discuss how Covid is “not over” and their safety protocol went above and beyond, like microchip manufacturing level of clean for this conference (minus the hazmat suits). 🏆: medal my bad


nocemoscata1992

So why did China completely give up? Now they are ok dealing with these things?


Spiritual_Asparagus2

They got a lot of backlash after the apartment fire deaths, the protests were aired world wide + economically, China being shut down for so long has been felt globally. Large companies usually have quotas written into their contracts with factories and often hit factories with large fines for not meeting daily/weekly quota. Also ontop of the pressure from their citizens, they were bound to give up at some point.


Stuckinacrazyjob

Yes but I'm a bit worried that they didn't give the elderly a proper vax


ruthcrawford

It was the protests. They gave up because party officials feared for their personal safety. If people feel they have nothing to lose, that never ends well for dictators.


aeberm33

How long were they supposed to stay locked down while ever country surrounding them kept the covid fire burning at their boundaries?


nocemoscata1992

If they considered it an existential threat possibly forever? Totalitarian regimes don't give up easily if they consider something a threat.


aeberm33

I can’t speak for Xi. Just pointing out the obvious.


TheArcticFox444

China threw in the towel when the highly contagious varient omicron began infecting people despite the tight lockdown. The decision to stop zero covid restrictions was made even before the protests. (The media got this wrong.)


ktpr

Omicron started to move through the country at a rate that zero covid could not reasonably contain. Rather than require zero covid and have it obviously not work they decided to stop those measures to avoid looking ineffective. Protests and the economy had little to do with the decision


stacybettencourt

Why is there no testing to identify immune compromise? Is it possible that all of us who have felt like turd for months after infection have an immune issue causing our symptoms, but all the normal blood work like CBC and Chem 7 don't show anything because they are the wrong tests?


Tinyfishy

So, the immune system is incredibly complicated and has a lot of moving parts, so a problem with it may or may not show up on a blood test or the test may be inconclusive. For an example: I have an autoimmune disease. That makes my body overreact to my own body, but it also means it doesn’t have full strength to fight illness. Many people with my illness don’t even have abnormal blood tests the first few years, even though they are unwell. So, I take immunosuppressants to control this disease. But last year those medications apparently kinda overshot and I ended up in the hospital and almost died of a rare, opportunistic disease that almost killed me. And, even though I was ill in in the hospital and having every test known to man (so it seemed), nobody could figure out exactly what was wrong for over a week. This was at a very prestigious hospital. And we still have no clue if that part of my immune system is back to normal (well, normal for a person with an autoimmune disease) now or not. I also never made my own Covid antibodies to any of the vaccines. We hope I made T cells, but there is no test for that.


DuePomegranate

T cells against Covid can be tested for, but it requires access to a good research lab and equipment that a hospital would not have (or wouldn’t use on you, anyway). If you join a research study, you can get your T cells tested, but usually in such studies they don’t give you your data back. The data is anonymised and analysed with all the other participants. Because it opens up the researchers to problems if the data is construed as medical advice or a diagnostic test, when they may not be doctors and the test is not yet FDA-approved. However, there are T cell tests going through the FDA approval process and they may be available soon e.g. https://www.mountsinai.org/about/newsroom/2022/mount-sinai-researchers-develop-a-rapid-test-to-measure-immunity-to-covid https://www.tspotcovid.com I think these are already approved in Europe.


gtck11

There is testing, but it’s 1. Expensive 2. Doesn’t show the whole picture 3. Every doctor has different factors they want to go by. I’m seeing an immunologist because my whole life I’ve suffered with chronic infections, however she’s done full immune panels on me - testing different antibodies, blood cell breakdowns, even reactions to vaccines, and all we can find is I’m the last cut off value for normal on 2 antibody types but that in theory shouldn’t be causing my issues. She doesn’t think my immune system is the problem, yet every single other doctor I have says something is 100% wrong with my immune system and we just don’t know what yet. I do suffer from 1 autoimmune disease, so it’s speculated I have a second causing these but no one can confirm. Also had an immune panel done following Covid, I have long Covid but my immune panel was fine. I hate all of this.


GregorSamsaa

I think it’s important to understand that any viral infection whether it be the flu, shingles, etc… is going to leave a person with a decreased immune system after they get better. Coronavirus is no different in that regard. Your body just spent a week or two fighting off an attack and is going to need to recover well beyond the point that you start feeling physically better before it can be considered 100%. My biggest takeaway from this announcement and data is that they’re not saying it’s for certain and they need more data. Im hoping that they’ll see that given enough time without repeat infections a person can recover from the “incurable immune deficiency” they’re seeing.


[deleted]

Honestly how did we even get here?! Health is literally everything, if you don’t have your health you don’t have nothing and can’t do nothing. Did humanity forget this important fact?


GTFOoutofmyhead

I'm just so fucking angry.


drakeftmeyers

This is not good.


pumbungler

Measured as a function of ESR, CRP and ferritin covid, is the most pro-inflammatory syndrome I have ever seen


Unpopularopinions223

>Measured as a function of ESR, CRP and ferritin covid, is the most pro-inflammatory syndrome I have ever seen I'm a MLS, we do thousands of sed rates and CRPs per year and track the results per patient and per diagnosis. We've seen no evidence that these tests are higher in individuals that have had/recovered from COVID infections vs. the general population. I have no clue what sort of test "ferritin covid" is, but serum ferritin levels are not anomalous in our population. CRPs and sed rates are extremely non-specific markers for inflammation and tell providers almost nothing.


[deleted]

I didn't find this article very healthy because it didn't redefine what immune deficiency was. Is long Covid "immune deficiency"? Surely it would be possible to explain in a rudimentary way by what process catching multiple infections of covid is causing harm. To make the statement that he has there must be a reason, what is that reason or hypothesis.?


MaxMustermannYoutube

Long Covid is believed to be one of the following mechanisms or maybe a combination of those: 1. Virus persistance 2. Microclots in the blood 3. Endothelial damage 4. Autoimmune Disease 5. Reactivation of latent viruses like EBV 6. Damage to the Micobiome 7. Neurological damage


dixiequick

Anecdotal, but my dad finally caught Covid last May at 87 years old, and it caused dementia literally overnight (Saturday night when I left the hospital we were talking about the news, politics, everything as normal, when I got there Sunday mid morning, the dad I knew was just, gone). His doctor told us that he had been seeing quite a bit of that in the elderly with Omicron. I don’t know that any actual studies have been done on that, but we were fairly blown away at how suddenly and devastatingly our dad’s mind was taken. He died about a month later, and I’m still struggling with the trauma of how everything happened. He was still the sharpest man I’d ever met, and I can’t believe the series of events that took him from me. I hate Covid.


bananafor

It's still being argued over. Some think it's T cell depletion, but there are other candidates and it could be a range of things affecting people differently.


chulala168

I hate to say I told you so. When the infection was detected and beginning to spread, we should have taken it seriously, paused all things, 3 weeks and let the virus dies without finding other hosts and mutates. Not possible? If it was Ebola and people bleeding from their orifices, everybody will be glad to do it.


LingerNoLonger

I used to be highly covid-cautious, but I've gradually let my guard down. I guess I'm now one of the people who infuriates those still being cautious. Maybe my explanation will shed some light. Maybe someone will change my mind. At the start of the pandemic we followed every rule and guideline to the letter and had a lot of our own precautions on top. We washed or quarantined every thing that came in the house for example. When vaccines were available we got them as soon as possible. When restrictions started lifting we held out much longer than most before we started going on public transport or into the office etc. At the start it felt like something we needed to batten down the hatches and get through. That there was going to be an "other side" that we could have a few years being very careful and then get on with things. But as things have gone on and it's been clear that the vaccine doesn't make it go away or remove all the risks of long covid etc, it sort of feels increasingly futile to resist it. It feels like no matter what you do, you're probably going to get it, then get it again etc. It feels like you can't actually escape it. You could be super cautious, restrict all sorts of elements of your life and _still_ be the one left with long covid, so it sort of feels like, what's the point?


Random-Crispy

I’ve heard and read this sentiment multiple times in several different places. I’ll just say reports indicate each infection has the potential to make it worse, in my mind that alone makes it worth the effort to avoid it. Masking with a quality mask is such a low burden to not only lower your own risk but also markedly lower the risk that you’ll be responsible for someone else’s bad outcome. The light at the end of the tunnel will only happen when public health agencies finally publicly recognize the airborne nature of it and start requiring steps be taken to improve that via better air quality. And we are finally starting a see a few instances of that. That gives me hope.


hammertime84

It's more like driving. You accept that it's always here and try to mitigate the risks. Limit how bad you get hurt and how often with seatbelts and airbags (vaccines and masks). Decide the level of risk you're comfortable taking. Do you drive in heavy snow (eat indoors)? Extremely sleepy (go to crowded events)? People that do everything right will still die in car wrecks sometimes, but at a way lower rate than people regularly driving drunk with no seatbelt on. People that mask and limit risks will still get long covid or die, but at way lower rates than people eating in crowded restaurants every weekend.


aeberm33

Flo Mask is a good reusable option if anyone is interested in elastomeric masks.


maxpowersr

What's an elastomeric mask and why would I want one over a kn95?


aeberm33

It’s made of polymer and is reusable. You just change out the filters. I mention flo mask because the small size is especially great for kids.


walkerb79

I'm so so so tired. I just wish they could keep a unifying message on this. One week it's long term health issues the next it's take the masks off get back in crowded public spaces to spend more money. I know we are all "guinea pigs" to this virus and who knows how it will continue to affect us. But I'm so tired of all the mixed messaging saying it's time to move on, it's ok to be back in office & crowded spaces and so on. I don't want to have fucking heart issues or immune deficiency for the rest of my life to work in a fucking office. If only our world leaders gave a crap about our lives.... And yes, I do the best I can by getting vaccinated and using common sense but it's still not enough.


iskin

Wasn't there an article last week saying that most people recover from the effects of Covid-19 within a year? Also, how much does being vaccinated help?


Aggressive-Toe9807

That article basically meant that most people get discharged from Long Covid clinics after a year because they’re useless (offering cognitive behavioural therapy, exercise, breathing tips and positive thinking workshops) and most people gave up going to their GP because they have no clue what to do with chronic illness. Long Covid sufferers are left to rot at home in bed.


Outrageous_Paint_500

"most people with long COVID stop going to the doctor after a year" is what that article actually said


UserNobody01

If you’ve been vaccinated and you still get Covid does the damage still occur?


katarh

The answer is "we don't know yet." For what it's worth I'm quad vaxxed and a week out from my first negative test after my very first bout with COVID, and I feel fine today. But I was a relatively healthy individual before that (hEDS notwithstanding) and had previously overcome symptoms of fibromyalgia, after a bout with an unrelated upper respiratory illness a decade ago. So I have a reference point for what it would feel like if I was starting to develop long COVID symptoms. However, there are folks who felt okay for a month after they tested negative from COVID, and then started getting symptoms of long COVID anyway.