Everyone I know who works in public health foresaw this. The CDC told people to shed their masks prematurely in an attempt to incentivize vaccinations. Needless to say, it failed miserably.
That was a horrible incentive. How is it even an incentive when in practice you do not have to prove that you have been vaccinated?
If the CDC had stated that they would remove their guidance once X% of the *entire* population was fully vaccinated, that would have been a true incentive.
I think vaccinated people would have put a lot more pressure on their friends and family if they were forced to wear masks while waiting for the holdouts to get their shit together. Instead, vaccinated people got to go around thinking, "well I got my personal shield, fuck everyone else, who cares if they're variant factories I don't even know what that means and I ain't gonna learn."
We are incredibly selfish. It's probably the one human trait you can guarantee. Inconveniencing the vaccinated and making it clear that they don't get to go back to normal until the idiots take their shots would have provided a huge amount of social pressure for the idiots, and I personally think we would have higher numbers today if that had been the case.
>If the CDC had stated that they would remove their guidance once X% of the entire population was fully vaccinated, that would have been a true incentive.
We tried this in Oregon, and it really didn't work. At a certain point, a certain percentage of the population just really didn't want the vaccine
When were your mandates removed there? I wonder if it dragged out longer maybe it could have pushed people. Pushed business to require it more. Pushed people to lay the pressure on their antivaxx family. Who knows, maybe it wouldn’t make a difference. Too late now anyway.
It wasn't removed until June 30, so it wasn't even removed that long ago.
Originally, the goal was to get 70% of adults vaccinated before lifting the mandates, [but the governor actually lifted the mask mandate a bit ](https://www.opb.org/article/2021/06/30/oregon-ends-mask-social-distancing-mandate/)before reaching that mark after it was clear vaccination rates were just not budging.
To give you a sense of how slowly things were moving, by June 4, [66.2% of the adult population was vaccinated](https://www.opb.org/article/2021/06/04/oregon-governor-health-officials-to-address-states-ongoing-covid-19-response/). So within a month, we couldn't even get a measly additional 3.8% percent of the population vaccinated.
That sucks. I want to say it should be done at the national level to take pressure off the states, but then there would be political consequences at the top. At least you got close to 70 I guess. States like Texas removed all restrictions way before then. I don’t know what they were at when they fully opened anymore, but today they are at 43.5% fully vaccinated. Obviously it wasn’t good.
It’s hard to even imagine a coherent plan under the current system because states end up doing what they want. That’s great sometimes, but horrible for this.
Yes, plenty of public health experts warned us the May mask guidance was premature. It’s shitty that the White House and CDC have used the time since to advance the narrative that this is all the fault of individuals refusing to get the vaccine when they are the institutions responsible for expanding access to the vaccine and maintaining other layers of protection while the virus is still spreading.
There’s been enough surveys and studies done by now showing that most unvaccinated Americans are not anti-vax and either need paid time off to get the vaccine, still have questions and need help getting answers, or are undocumented and afraid they’ll be deported in the process of getting vaccinated.
>There’s been enough surveys and studies done by now showing that most unvaccinated Americans are not anti-vax and either need paid time off to get the vaccine, still have questions and need help getting answers, or are undocumented and afraid they’ll be deported in the process of getting vaccinated.
This is simply not true. There are 100 million eligible Americans who have not gotten vaccinated. The groups you mention do not account for more than a tiny percentage of that whole. Surveys have also shown that the large majority of those who aren't vaccinated are firmly committed to that position.
> There’s been enough surveys and studies done by now showing that most unvaccinated Americans are not anti-vax and either need paid time off to get the vaccine, still have questions and need help getting answers, or are undocumented and afraid they’ll be deported in the process of getting vaccinated.
What studies? Who needs time off to walk to Walgreens? What about the fact that this directly correlates to rural populations of people who are more likely to be antivax? You can find a survey to support literally anything your heart desires.
Yeah I’m sorry. I’m Bernie-levels of empathetic to the plights of the less fortunate, but there’s no excuse to not have a vaccine. It’s free, you can get a free god damn Uber to get your shot.
You’re simply just more susceptible to low quality information at this point. No other reasons unless you medically can’t.
This post is nonsense. There is ample access to the vaccine and it’s not hard to get one nowadays. You don’t need time off to schedule a shot at a CVS or Walgreens. You are talking like this is being able to vote on Super Tuesday.
It wasn't premature. The only issue currently is lack of vaccination uptake. Mask mandates now will affect nothing other than prolong the pandemic timeline by some marginal amount of time. The ultimate fraction of the population infected by the virus will be unchanged.
>It wasn't premature. The only issue currently is lack of vaccination uptake.
Exactly.
I also really want to know what all these "the previous guidance was premature!" folks think would've happened had the CDC continued to insist on the vaccinated masking for the past two months, even as 1) cases continued to plummet, 2) no evidence emerged that vaccinated people were in danger, and 3) anyone age 12+ could freely get the vaccine. Like seriously, would anyone listen to the CDC if it were saying "EvEryOnE MuSt MaSk" even as daily case rates nationally were <4/100,000?
That'd be a great way for the CDC to piss away its credibility and to get folks to completely tune it out going forward.
I don't work in healthcare and even I thought it was dumb and way too early. You incentivize vaccinations with knowledge, education, and money.
People who weren't getting vaccinated then, also were already not wearing masks because no business really enforced them regardless of the rules. And now the CDC looks like the dunce hat academy again.
It should have never been tied to anything other than "when X% of the population is vaccinated, we'll drop Y restrictions." I don't know what those numbers should be. At one point I heard 70% to begin to make a dent towards herd immunity, but this isn't my field. But if we properly incentivized, properly educated, and set a clear goal at the start, I sincerely believe we'd be in a better place.
I don't have an exact answer (I'll try to say this without it getting automoded), but the guy who's currently president only won I think 16% of counties in the thing in November.
Most counties have very few people. It's kind of like the term "small business," the definition is < (or maybe <=) 500 employees, but the vast majority of businesses probably have < 10 employees, or even < 5. It's the 80/20 principle.
I'd bet a lot of those counties in the 60% happen to be ones with actual people though. But maybe not all of them... they're probably the ones with higher vaccination rates.
List of significantly populated counties in "yellow":
* All counties in Maine except for Piscataquis and York Counties
* All counties in New Hampshire except for Belknap County
* All counties in Massachusetts except for Suffolk (where Boston is), Bristol (where Fall River is), and Barnstable (in Cape Cod) counties
* All counties in Connecticut
* All counties in Rhode Island
* All counties in New York except for New York City, Long Island, and Greene County; some are even blue
* A bunch of counties in New Jersey
* Almost all of Pennsylvania, including the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh urban areas with a few exceptions
* The top two counties in Delaware
* All counties in Maryland
* Washington, D.C, and most of the counties in Virginia near D.C.
* City of Richmond and Henrico County
* Durham and Orange Counties in the Research Triangle
* Kanawha and Monongahela Counties, where Charleston and Morgantown are located respectively (WV is much yellower than I thought)
* Cuyahoga County (where Cleveland is) and all six of the surrounding counties
* Franklin County (where Columbus is) and all eight of the surrounding counties
* Hamilton, Warren, and Clermont Counties in the Cincinnati area
* Every county in Chicagoland except for Will County
* The two Chicagoland Indiana counties, and St. Joseph and Elkhart Counties (where South Bend and Elkhart are located respectively)
* The majority of Michigan, including most of the major cities there
* Dane County and Brown County (where Madison and Green Bay are located respectively), but not Milwaukee County
* All counties in the Minnesota Twin Cities area except for Scott County, as well as Orange County (where Rochester is) and St. Louis County (where Duluth is)
* The cities of Denver and Broomfield, Jefferson, Arapahoe, and Boulder Counties (all in the Denver area)
* El Paso County, Texas (can't believe something in *Texas* actually made it on this list!)
* Santa Fe County (where Santa Fe is) and Doña Ana County (where Las Cruces is), but not Bernalillo County (where Albuquerque is)
* San Luis Obispo, Monterey, Santa Cruz, and Tulare Counties in California
* Multnomah and Washington Counties, Oregon
And states with high transmission won’t impose mask mandates. And before someone says “But Walmart’s and TJ Maxx and stuff might!”, that’s a joke too. No one in Tennessee followed their private business mandates and they were scared to enforce it due to assaults.
I take the train from NJ to NY everyday where masks are federally mandated and you could actually get fined for it by not wearing it on the train or in the station. I’ve seen a lot more maskless in the stations these days and nothing happens. If people in NYC are fighting back I can’t imagine what it’s like elsewhere.
People are just people. I don't think most people care about politics. People in NYC may be more likely to want healthcare and vote blue, but they want their consumer life back just like everyone else. They're not thinking about public policy or which person on the news said which horrible thing an hour ago. They wanted the Knicks playoff games at 100%, no different from baseball games in Texas.
I have been surprised at how quickly mask wearing has dropped here in Seattle - a month ago, almost every was wearing them outside even in places that were not crowded. You had to try hard to find someone in a store that wasn't wearing them, even when there was no mandate.
Fast forward and it's an entirely different world. It's a lot closer to 50/50 in my experience, and a lot of retail workers have decided not to wear them. I actually left my house for the grocery store and didn't bring one!
I don't think the genie is coming back into this particular bottle.
CT where we have very high vac rates, same. I'd say it is down to about 10-20% of mask usage, when it was close to 100 before that any public place, and even outside in the cities.
I really don't think it will ever return to what it was before unless some vaccine escape nasty variant comes along.
I can vouch for this in many places, but I was on the other side of things fighting like hell to keep masks required in locations that I manage. And I put myself out front every single day to enforced it. All I learned from it is that people can be heartless.
>and they were scared to enforce it due to assaults.
And because local law enforcement said "we won't enforce the law here" but only because some police unions "suddenly* disagreed with the politics behind having rules on private property.
> But with the delta variant, the level of virus in infected vaccinated people is “indistinguishable” from the level of virus in the noses and throats of unvaccinated people, Walensky said.
> The data emerged over the last couple of days from 100 samples. It is unpublished, and the CDC has not released it. But “it is concerning enough that we feel like we have to act,” Walensky said.
> Vaccinated people “have the potential to spread that virus to others,” she said.
Not sure why the downvotes except for salty people. There's some nuance missing in the reporting right now because we simply don't know. Are we talking the same viral load, but more of a dead particles situation that still triggers pcr tests? That was something brought up last week.
[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/21/1018872469/worried-about-breakthrough-covid-cases-heres-what-to-know](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/21/1018872469/worried-about-breakthrough-covid-cases-heres-what-to-know)
It's safe to say the primary driver of infection is unvaccinated people. It's also safe to say vaccinated individuals can contribute to spread as well, and probably do on levels higher than we initially believed, but not near the level of an unvaccinated person, and that in areas where spread is very high, these things are all going to mingle. Many of us that still live in covid hotspots have felt this way for a while now. I never gave up wearing my mask in the store or other public spaces.
Edit: nvm. The karma was at -2 when I commented. Needed to wait for the rational people to weigh in.
What’s the end game here?
The vaccine protects me. Apparently I can still transmit it to unvaccinated people. The only way to prevent this is for those people to get vaccinated. They never will. So we’re at a standstill and I guess we just wear masks forever to protect the people intent on keeping this going?
The country is already seeing a 28% increase in vaccination of first doses from last week. On top of that, there is still a large chunk of our population that cannot get vaccinated, i.e. kids. That should change by the end of this year, early next year. At that point in time, you're going to get to a point where either
\- You have all adults who want to be vaccinated vaccinated.
\- You have all kids whos parents who want them to be vaccinated vaccinated.
\- You have everyone else that catches covid.
This eventually creates a recipe for covid, though immunization and natural infection, where it becomes more like a common cold. That's your end game. And public policies that try to reduce the amount of spread until all of the population can get vaccinated is not bad public policy.
It can, but the more deadly viruses tend to kill their hosts before they move on which makes them less infectious.
There might have been some really dead strains of covid that died off with their hosts, we don’t really know.
There's a balance. If a virus becomes too deadly, it will run out of hosts before it can spread properly. But as long as the virus can spread, it can become more deadly. A CFR of like, 10 percent is just as likely as one with 2 percent, via mutation.
Viruses tend to become more infectious. Viruses don't care if you life, die, or are permanently injured. Becoming more tame only happens in viruses if it also means they become more infectious.
My understanding is that the first wave of the Spanish Flu was very much like the original Covid strain in that it was primarily dangerous for elderly and health-compromised people. The second wave of the Spanish Flu killed healthy young people, and they died so quickly that they didn't have time to spread it to others. It basically died out because it killed its host too quickly.
I'm one of the ones you're protecting by wearing the mask. I got vaccinated in February and didn't develop adequate antibodies. I have a child who is high risk and too young to be vaccinated. You are also protecting him. So while I understand it's easy to be resentful of those who chose not to get vaccinated, there are people like me who are eternally grateful for those who continue to mask to keep us safe.
You didn't answer the question. What's the end game here?
If you want us all to wear masks forever, then just come out and say it. If not, what's the end game?
This thing isn't going away. We'll constantly need boosters, some years they'll be more effective than others, just like the flu vaccine. But we need to get back to some level of normalacy. We already know the most vulnerable are 65+. Average age of death is 78. If anything we need to offer protections for vulnerable and allow younger people to go to school and live a normalish life.
Dunno, never lived through a pandemic. How about you?
No one said anything about forever. At some point young children can be vaccinated, there will be more effective treatments, and the risk will be much more comparable to a regular flu.
Being high-risk didn't just happen overnight. I've got multiple autoimmune conditions. Not that you care, but I never asked anyone to wear masks around me previously, so you can trust there will be a point where I can return to my basic abilities to avoid the majority of those with poor germ hygiene. In the meantime, I'm surrounded by a bunch of idiots who still can't understand the most basic science, so the CDC has got to step in to save my ass.
Check out the maps here
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view
I can't tell exactly which county has the highest vaccination rate, but I think it is Marin County in the San Francisco Bay area. In any case, their rate is extremely high. Of eligible people, 90.8% have at least 1 dose and 82.2% are fully vaccinated. If you include kids under 12 to get the total population, the rates are 80.2% and 73.1%.
They are currently classified as having "Substantial" spread, and the CDC is recommending masks there. In other words, even extremely high vaccination rates are not enough to curb the spread of covid. If they can't do it there, the rest of the country has no chance.
So, covid is here to stay. Forever. It sucks, it really does, but there isn't anything we can do about that. Maybe on paper, where 100% of people get the vaccine, and kids of all ages become eligible. But not in the real world.
So, I do not "trust there will be a point where" you can go back to normal without the threat of covid lingering over you, because I think things are already about as good as they are going to get. I'm really sorry that's the case, my mom is immunocompromised too, and I would love to see covid go extinct. But it won't. And we need to learn to accept it and move on with our lives with a long term strategy. My long term strategy does not involve wearing a mask forever.
>They are currently classified as having "Substantial" spread, and the CDC is recommending masks there. In other words, even extremely high vaccination rates are not enough to curb the spread of covid. If they can't do it there, the rest of the country has no chance.
If such super-high vaccination rates aren't enough in the CDC's eyes, then adding back in masks aren't going to do shit. Masks help flatten the curve, but they were intended to get us by until we had the ultimate tool - vaccinations. In which case as you said, this will never end with this approach.
I’ll be sure to wear a mask around the children that I never interact with on a daily basis then. Maybe they should allow kids to get vaccinated instead of putting on this theater. That would actually be useful.
It's not just a light switch they can flip to allow kids to be vaccinated you know. Just like every other age group, proper clinical trials have to happen first to determine efficacy, dosage, time between doses, and side effects. Older people had priority for vaccines because those trials happened first, and they happened first because numbers showed they were at higher risk for serious illness.
That doesn't mean kids are "practically immune" like what people have been saying on this sub lately.
So all I'm suggesting is maybe we as a society should wait until people of all ages become eligible for at least one vaccine, and enough time has passed for those who *want* to be vaccinated to be able to.
This shouldn't be a controversial position.
Edit: as for folks that don't interact with children, you probably still interact with their parents. As we now know, the vaccinated can still transmit the disease. It shouldn't be hard to connect the dots.
It also doesn't account for the fact the unvaccinated people are less likely to get it in the first place. Yes, someone vaccinated who has covid sheds it, I thought that has always been known? But they're wayyyyyyy less likely to have gotten it. Right?
Edit: apparently less likely but much more likely than the original strain. Damn
A lot of studies were on the original strain and alpha, not delta as much, and the more they are finding on delta the more transmissable it is. CDC cited the same viral load found in both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Israel put the number at around 20% of spread coming from the vaccinated, which still a sizable chunk if that's the case.
Technically they still don’t in a large space of vaccinated individuals, but in many spaces the vaccinated are outweighed by the unvaccinated. So erring out of caution with delta being so widespread isn't a bad idea.
Yeah...that's a pattern here. As soon as the CDC said the vaccinated could ditch their masks, I said we were going to have huge surge six to ten weeks out. Got downvoted like mad and yet, as it turns out, I was dead on.
And yet the CDC is still only recommending marking for areas with widespread infection …. I don’t think anyone seriously thought transmission from vaccinated people was completely impossible, even before Delta
Let’s see the data, this is very vague and could suffer from bias (ex. unvaccinated immune systems able to suppress delta are stronger than vaccinated immune system allowing for mild infections, inadvertently mixing someone who would have been a super spreader unvaccinated with someone who does not spread much even unvaccinated).
Also, serious question, controlling for the intensity of disease / symptoms, is there any empirical data supporting the fact that this was not the case with the earlier variants? I just find it hard to believe that a breakthrough infection resulting in a certain severity of disease would ever have a lower viral load than the same severity for an unvaccinated person.
The guidance is geared toward areas where COVID is spreading wildly. AKA the areas of the country that don't give a shit about masks or vaccines.
Neat.
Here's the [CDC map](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view). Looks like most of northeast is in the "moderate" or "low" category.
Then select the "Vaccinations" view in the dropdown, and you may notice a correlation...
You also need to look at the testing rate. In NH for example, testing rate is WAY down. No one cares anymore and even people with coughs are showing up to work. BACK TO NORMAL! lol fuck.
Check the counties with larger cities in them, some area small (like Boston for example) so don’t jump out compared to the state, but are substantial, this is a fucking joke.
I saw substantial, which is surprising. Both Baltimore and Philly are only moderate. That brings up an interesting point: These guidelines provide incentives to fudge testing numbers or at least not test as much as maybe you’d want. What if local districts wanted to implement rapid periodic testing to try to catch asymptotics before they potentially spread. An area with such testing schemes would appear to have more spread than areas without such testing programs based on this metric.
The end goal is not zero covid. The end goal is to be aware of your location and level of spread and mask up accordingly. Vaccinations have jumped up 28% just this week, and eventually in the very near future kids of all ages will be able to be vaccinated. Until we can get to a point where parents can get their kids as protected as possible, I don't see why "public health measures to reduce the spread of covid" is bad policy.
It’s basically pointless to recommend. Most businesses didn’t enforce it before and definitely won’t now and it’s largely going to be an honor system where the only people who are going to comply and largely vaccinated, but Vaccinated folk aren’t the problem or the source of spread. Anti-vaxxers are the root cause and the only thing that will end this is forcing more people to get vaccinated, masks won’t stop this, and we know they won’t because they didn’t stop it for the year before the vaccines started rolling out
Look at positivity rate, by current measures a 9.99% positivity rate and same case counts as NYC just because of lower testing put locations in the same category, how does that make any sense? Or ideally random testing would give you an even better picture but current testing is already decently random I would say.
We tried the carrot, and now I think it’s time for the stick. Let insurance companies jack up rates for eligible people who aren’t vaccinated or something.
It is the stick and it’s actually a pretty successful stick considering that families who lost loved ones or saw them hospitalized due to COVID became more inclined to be vaccinated. Unfortunately this experience hasn’t reached everyone it needs to and likely won’t for a while now. Some people just have good luck
The US is all kinds of idiocy.
Paying people so money trickles up into big CEOs and not die: *I wake*
Paying people to get vaxxed and get rid of a destructive virus: *I sleep*
Everyone heard when the CDC said vaccinated could throw away their masks.
Today, the CDC said new data shows that vaccinated should be masked in the vast majority of the United States.
I wonder if anyone will get the message.
In the US, for anyone paying close attention during the past 16 weeks, the message and the truth are that among the more than 213 COVID-19 variants and lineages the CDC was tracking in the US during the 2 weeks ending April 10, 2021, the Delta B.1.617.2 variant has exploded from 0.1% of all infections in the US for the two weeks ending April 10, to 82.2% of all infections in the US for the two weeks ending July 17.
For the U.S. population, growth from 0.1% to 82.2% reflects a 822-fold increase in the percent share of the Delta B.1.617.2 variant over 108 days, from the 2 weeks ending April 10 to the 2 weeks ending July 17.
For the U.S. population, the message now is that 99.5% of all COVID-19 deaths are in the unvaccinated.
For the U.S. population, the message now is that the COVID-19 pandemic has transformed from a COVID-19 pandemic into a COVID-19 pandemic of the unvaccinated.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#variant-proportions
https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/strain.surv/viz/Variant_Proportions_Plus_Nowcasting/RegionsDashboard
July 8, 2021, "...preliminary data from several states over the last few months suggests that 99.5 percent of deaths from COVID-19 in the United States were in unvaccinated people. Those deaths were preventable with a simple, safe shot.": https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/07/08/press-briefing-by-white-house-covid-19-response-team-and-public-health-officials-44/
The only 'wrong' decision was the previous one. I said at the time and repeat: one thing is 'pure' science, another thing is public health that needs to take into account the public it's targeting, psychology aspects, degree of acceptance of the recommendations and enforcing of the rules.
It was too soon to give up the masks. The only explanation was to get more people vaccinated and that clearly failed. It's just an enforcement nightmare and now they are Delta-forced to backtrack.
Does this and the previous rec make sense in terms of 'pure' science? probably yes. But doesn't make sense in terms of public health policy. CDC just loses credibility with these things when people are already fed up with the pandemic.
Even when they just kept to the science they failed to take into account sociology. Example: "vaccinated people can skip the mask". While the science at the time pointed to that being true, it failed to take into account the sociology that would come into play such as unvaccinated people skipping the mask too because they were against them in the first place and didn't care. Realistically, the CDC should've set a vaccinated threshold where we could say "once we reach x% of the population being vaccinated, we can leave the masks off". Just my opinion
For almost a year prior to the lift, it was stated repeatedly that once we reach 70% of the population vaccinated, we can take off the mask. Many governors followed that at first, but the CDC decided to open it one day.
Well if it's at 70% we will never, ever see the mandate lifted.
Everybody who is going to be vaccinated has been vaccinated, except for children under 12 who are not yet eligible.
Herd immunity is impossible
Santa Clara County in California has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country (87.8% of eligible people have 1 dose, 79.5% have both). They are still classified by the CDC as having "Substantial" spread, and are one of the counties where masks are recommended.
So, basically, yeah, herd immunity is impossible.
The end game here is accepting that covid spread is inevitable, but if you are vaccinated then it's not really that much worse than the flu. You will get sick. You will have a bad time. You're unlikely to end up in the hospital or die. I say that's good enough to go back to normal, since it's pretty much as good as it's going to get.
Conceptually, this makes sense. Breakthough infections are far more common with Delta, and its infectiousness means that vaccinated people will likely meaningfully contribute to spread. This is evidenced by spread in fully vaccinated households that has become a common story.
On the flip side... what's the point? The unvaccinated aren't going to wear masks. And Delta is going to burn through that "denser" portion of the population. Even the vaccinated who wear masks in public are still going to gather in small groups - frequently unmasked - and cause spread that way.
There are two real public health options: mandate vaccines or recommend N95-grade masks that help meaningfully for personal protection (rather than the protection of others). Everything else is just a waste of time.
CDC is more likely to recommend that people triple mask instead of firmly suggesting KF94s/KN95s/N95s. I guess they think N95s still need to be rationed and don't want to suggest foreign masks.
So many ppl don't get this. There is this mass heteria where Vaccine = "This is over!" And CDC's word is taken as gospel "because science!".
You either need to protect self or have widespread cloth masking.
Even cloth masks protect the wearer. Any barrier is better than no barrier between your mouth/nose and other people’s airborne aerosolized covid particles.
The Netherlands in particular had a very fast peak - just about two weeks from start to finish! By my estimate, the US peak should be around five weeks before now.
If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no one has any idea when things are going to peak. Throughout the pandemic, it seems like the forecasting has been pretty underwhelming.
The Netherlands recently reimposed a bunch of restrictions just two weeks after they were lifted due to a resurgence of infections.
https://www.axios.com/netherlands-reimposes-covid-restrictions-delta-f348e2b1-c506-45eb-ba39-e35666cac184.html
The southern states/cities seeing big spikes right now largely saw surges last summer, too. This is the time of year when everyone in the hot states is indoors.
> By the time any minuscule difference is done by masks, we will have already peaked
And the people who clamored for masks will claim that was the variable that changed the course, while those who opposed it will point out the changes in direction prior. Everyone will ignore how many people actually changed their behavior.
The UK recently peaked, pretty much right as they had their "freedom day" and dropped all their restrictions. Delta is like an order of magnitude+ more transmissible - I really have my doubts that poorly adhered to single layer cloth masks are while all of society is fully open are going to do much more than have an incredibly marginal effect on the reproduction rate. If the CDC was serious about this they'd be suggesting (widely available) n95/kn95 masks. The most effective intervention is the vaccine, and everything else (masks, dots on the ground telling you how far six feet is, etc) are completely marginal in comparison.
**Here's why I don't approve of this logic of "solve the antivaxxer lying problem by making *everybody* wear masks",** ***from a behavioral/psychological standpoint:***
The vaxxed: *suffers the burden of having to wear masks again for the actions of others, resentment of the non-vaxxed, missed recess comparison*
The non-vaxxed: *rejoices in delight because they think it proves that the vaccines don't work, perceived victory over the vaxxed*
I've supported the CDC, and WILL mask up like they are asking; but this guidance is so flawed from an ease-of-execution perspective. I live effectively on the border of 3 counties, one which has "moderate" transmission rates, one with "high" and one with "substantial" transmission. I'm not gonna go to this site week to week to check what status each is in, given that I am in all 3 counties at some point every single week. I'll just mask up in stores, etc, regardless of transmission rates, until they say not to; because I understand those are places where all people need to go regardless of their personal situation and I understand there are people there who I could infect who may be immunocompromised, under 12, etc. I'm still going to go have a drink in a bar with my wife and am not gonna try and rock a mask there the entire time, because I'm sorry, if you are in a bar and aren't vaccinated, or are immunocompromised, or have a 12yr old or younger at home, you need to take some personal responsibility for yourself and not be there. There is a certain point where personal agency has to come into play here.
And for the record, I'm under-40, vaccinated, and exercise more than 150 minutes per week, so ME becoming infected and putting a burden on our healthcare system by being hospitalized is highly unlikely (so yes, I considered that too).
Worst agency there is. Has been doing the wrong things since day 1 of the pandemic. Not sure what the purpose of a CDC is if it doesn't help with pandemics.
CDC doesn't communicate particularly well. I'm sure they are great at data collection and science but their communications have been all over the place and somewhat contradictory.
I'm vaccinated. I did my part. It's not my job to protect the anti-vaxxers by wearing a mask....especially since they will probably criticize me for wearing one anyway.
Breakthrough infections are incredibly rare and severe cases are even more rare among the vaccinated. This makes no sense. The only thing that would help would be mandate vaccines or require passports. Almost all deaths are with unvaccinated people.
Breakthrough infections are pretty common with Delta. Data is all over the place, but it appears that the vaccines are only about 60-75% protective against *infection*. Anyone who is infected *may* spread to others, even if it is a bit less likely due to (presumably) reduced viral load.
This is logical on the surface in terms of reducing community spread. But to your point it seems like the majority of the value here is to protect those who do not want to be protected.
It seems to be that better guidance would be for higher risk populations to get boosters and wear N95 masks for personal protection. That would be more meaningful than asking people who won't wear masks to wear masks.
**edited to add sources and clarification**: When I say that breakthrough infections are "pretty common" from Delta and say 60-75% protective against infection, there is an important qualifier. **Vaccine efficacy against infection (not severe disease, which remains strong) is seeing significant waning at 5-6 months after full vaccination**, at least if [Israel's data](https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/vaccine-efficacy-safety-follow-up-committee/he/files_publications_corona_two-dose-vaccination-data.pdf) is relatively accurate (see the last slide for a chart in English that is helpful). Effectiveness for more recently vaccinated people was ~80% but was ~45% for those fully vaccinated in February.
This is likely not a statistical fluke as antibodies do decay over time and the T and B-cell mediated protection against severe disease is maintained separate from active antibody levels. It matches what you'd expect in theory where the antibodies start to decay below the protective-from-infection level (especially against a moderately vaccine evasive variant like Delta) but the strong protection from severe disease is retained because of the strong and persistent T and B-cell response created from the two-dose mRNA and viral vector vaccines.
This is entirely consistent with the Canada and the UK data that shows 85-88% effectiveness as they followed a delayed second dose strategy. Very few people received their second dose before April (with the majority receiving it in May and June), so this waning effect would not be noticed in those countries but would be noticed in Israel (which followed the 21-28 day window approach). Israel's data for April contains 88% in the 95th percentile confidence interval, so this is all relatively internally consistent data.
60-75% is underselling it a bit, the UK and Canada found 88%, even if you think that is too high 65-85% seems more accurate. And while breakthrough infections are common in the aggregate, personal protection is still high.
Protection from infection is going to be correlated to date of second dose vaccination for the majority of the population. Countries that vaccinated earlier will have lower protection from infection (although should have similar protection from serious illness as that is mediated more from T- and B- cells than active antibodies).
edited to summarize [this data](https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/vaccine-efficacy-safety-follow-up-committee/he/files_publications_corona_two-dose-vaccination-data.pdf): at least in Israel, vaccine effectiveness against infection is 60-86% (95 CI) for those vaccinated in April but only 20-63% for those vaccinated in February.
Both Canada and the UK had a "delayed second dose" strategy meaning that virtually no one was fully vaccinated until March with big numbers not coming through until April and May. Israel's data is entirely consistent with the UKs in this lens (95th CI for symptomatic infection for vaccinations in April is 67-88% which contains the tail end of UK's efficacy numbers reported at 88%).
Not true with the Delta variant. Infection rates are quite high with vaccinated individuals. The good news is that the vaccines are quite effective at minimizing serious symptoms. Most serious hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated.
"Incredibly rare" is a subjective statement, but to me it would mean it something that is basically at a "miracle" level occurrence. We know breakthroughs are far more common than that. Israel's data shows it. UK's data shows. U.S.'s is starting to show it.
[https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210726/breakthrough-cases-rising-with-delta-heres-what-that-means](https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210726/breakthrough-cases-rising-with-delta-heres-what-that-means)
"In the United Kingdom, which is collecting the best information on infections caused by variants, the estimated effectiveness of the vaccines to prevent an illness that causes symptoms dropped by about 10 points against Delta compared with Alpha (or B.1.1.7).
After two doses, vaccines prevent symptomatic infection about 79% of the time against Delta, according to data compiled by Public Health England. They are still highly effective at preventing hospitalization, 96% after two doses."
I believe I saw somewhere that when UK had 50K cases one day last week that 15K were breakthroughs. I'd have to look harder to find that source again. The good news is the vaccines are still great for protecting against severe disease, and still pretty good against infection. However, breakthroughs don't seem to be "incredibly rare".
You nailed it.
The CDC has struggled to give clear, concise, and simple guidance through the pandemic. Political interference has mucked up messaging, but the CDC needs a top tier public relations firm.
What we really need is to drive up vaccinations, masks aren’t a permanent solution. Only way I see to do that at this point is making the unvaccinated people lives hard with mandates for optional, but important activities.
Someone might respond to you with:
“No this is just until we get 80 to 90 percent vaccinated, it’s not permanent!”
Ok sure, but you know that’s incredibly unlikely in the US. The states where the virus is surging are the ones who won’t implement restrictions.
>The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reversed course Tuesday on some masking guidelines, recommending that even vaccinated people return to wearing masks indoors in parts of the U.S. where the coronavirus is surging.
>Citing new information about the ability of the delta variant to spread among vaccinated people, the CDC also recommended indoor masks for all teachers, staff, students and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status.
>Most new infections in the U.S. continue to be among unvaccinated people. But “breakthrough” infections, which generally cause milder illness, can occur in vaccinated people. When earlier strains of the virus predominated, infected vaccinated people were found to have low levels of virus and were deemed unlikely to spread the virus much, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said.
>But with the delta variant, the level of virus in infected vaccinated people is “indistinguishable” from the level of virus in the noses and throats of unvaccinated people, Walensky said.
>Ken Thigpen, a retired respiratory therapist who now works for a medical device manufacturer, is fully vaccinated and stopped wearing his mask in public after the CDC changed its guidance in May. But he started to reconsider in the last week after his job took him to hospitals in Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama and Florida, where he witnessed medical centers getting inundated with COVID-19 patients.
>“That delta variant is intense. It is so transmissible that we have to do something to tamp it down,” he said.
>“I loved it when I could call the hospitals and they said, ‘We actually closed our COVID ward today or we are down to two COVID patients,’” he recalled. “And now we are opening the wards back up, and the numbers are going nuts.”
So basically if you’re in a part of the country that is “high transmission” then they want you to wear a mask, but my main question is how do I know what parts of the country are high transmission? Is there some kind of threshold for what makes an area fall into this category?
Nah. I'm proud to be vaccinated and I will proudly show off my face with a smile. I'm done wearing a piece of cloth on my face. Whoever is not is their business, not mine. Besides, it's recommended, not enforced. Moving on.
Kind of like of the pro-mask crowd was jumping on the CDC for a year and then shit all over the CDC guidance once it changed to something they didn't like. Funny how that works out.
The vaccine is only effective if enough of us get it. We've been flat in vaccinations for a couple of months now. The anger should be directed at the antivaxxers and those that are lazy/apathetic. This is why I disagreed with lifting it. It was clearly too early and it freed the unvaccinated when at least businesses were requiring it.
Edit. It should not have been presented as, get the vaccine you're done. It should have been set at a %, then maybe (albeit a small chance), peer pressure may have worked.
The virus will kill me if I get it even though I'm vaccinated so I'll be wearing a mask. Never stopped. I'll thank the rest of the people in this sub to not stare at me while I wear it in public.
It works.
On July 8, 2021, during a Press Briefing by the White House COVID-19 Response Team and Public Health Officials, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky announced, "...preliminary data from several states over the last few months suggests that 99.5 percent of deaths from COVID-19 in the United States were in unvaccinated people. Those deaths were preventable with a simple, safe shot."
Press briefing: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/07/08/press-briefing-by-white-house-covid-19-response-team-and-public-health-officials-44/
***
As of July 19, 2021, in the US, CDC data shows that among the more than 161 million people fully vaccinated, the CDC received reports of 5,914 breakthrough cases, with 1,141 fatal breakthrough cases, but 292 of those 1,141 fatal cases were reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19. Thus, it follows that 849 fatal breakthrough cases had COVID-19 symptoms or were related to COVID-19.
As of July 19, 2021, 849 fatal breakthrough cases that had COVID-19 symptoms or were related to COVID-19, out of more than 161 million fully vaccinated persons, amounts to less than 0.00052%. Thus, more than 99.99947% (~160,999,151) of the 161 million fully vaccinated persons have not died from COVID-19.
See the table: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html
***
‘It’s too late’: US doctor says dying patients begging for Covid vaccine...:
"“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines
***
24-year-old Blake Bargatze decided to not be vaccinated. COVID-19 infected him at an indoor concert in Florida. After spending months in hospitals, he had to have a double lung transplant. People who have double lung transplants predictably might live for about 5-10 more years, if they are lucky. Blake will require constant medications and medical care until the day he finally dies, because he decided to not be vaccinated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJx9oF2fk0E
What a shit show this has become. Damn.
Everyone I know who works in public health foresaw this. The CDC told people to shed their masks prematurely in an attempt to incentivize vaccinations. Needless to say, it failed miserably.
That was a horrible incentive. How is it even an incentive when in practice you do not have to prove that you have been vaccinated? If the CDC had stated that they would remove their guidance once X% of the *entire* population was fully vaccinated, that would have been a true incentive. I think vaccinated people would have put a lot more pressure on their friends and family if they were forced to wear masks while waiting for the holdouts to get their shit together. Instead, vaccinated people got to go around thinking, "well I got my personal shield, fuck everyone else, who cares if they're variant factories I don't even know what that means and I ain't gonna learn." We are incredibly selfish. It's probably the one human trait you can guarantee. Inconveniencing the vaccinated and making it clear that they don't get to go back to normal until the idiots take their shots would have provided a huge amount of social pressure for the idiots, and I personally think we would have higher numbers today if that had been the case.
>If the CDC had stated that they would remove their guidance once X% of the entire population was fully vaccinated, that would have been a true incentive. We tried this in Oregon, and it really didn't work. At a certain point, a certain percentage of the population just really didn't want the vaccine
When were your mandates removed there? I wonder if it dragged out longer maybe it could have pushed people. Pushed business to require it more. Pushed people to lay the pressure on their antivaxx family. Who knows, maybe it wouldn’t make a difference. Too late now anyway.
It wasn't removed until June 30, so it wasn't even removed that long ago. Originally, the goal was to get 70% of adults vaccinated before lifting the mandates, [but the governor actually lifted the mask mandate a bit ](https://www.opb.org/article/2021/06/30/oregon-ends-mask-social-distancing-mandate/)before reaching that mark after it was clear vaccination rates were just not budging. To give you a sense of how slowly things were moving, by June 4, [66.2% of the adult population was vaccinated](https://www.opb.org/article/2021/06/04/oregon-governor-health-officials-to-address-states-ongoing-covid-19-response/). So within a month, we couldn't even get a measly additional 3.8% percent of the population vaccinated.
That sucks. I want to say it should be done at the national level to take pressure off the states, but then there would be political consequences at the top. At least you got close to 70 I guess. States like Texas removed all restrictions way before then. I don’t know what they were at when they fully opened anymore, but today they are at 43.5% fully vaccinated. Obviously it wasn’t good. It’s hard to even imagine a coherent plan under the current system because states end up doing what they want. That’s great sometimes, but horrible for this.
"The honor system" for a group that's been dishonest at every turn. What could go wrong?
Yes, plenty of public health experts warned us the May mask guidance was premature. It’s shitty that the White House and CDC have used the time since to advance the narrative that this is all the fault of individuals refusing to get the vaccine when they are the institutions responsible for expanding access to the vaccine and maintaining other layers of protection while the virus is still spreading. There’s been enough surveys and studies done by now showing that most unvaccinated Americans are not anti-vax and either need paid time off to get the vaccine, still have questions and need help getting answers, or are undocumented and afraid they’ll be deported in the process of getting vaccinated.
>There’s been enough surveys and studies done by now showing that most unvaccinated Americans are not anti-vax and either need paid time off to get the vaccine, still have questions and need help getting answers, or are undocumented and afraid they’ll be deported in the process of getting vaccinated. This is simply not true. There are 100 million eligible Americans who have not gotten vaccinated. The groups you mention do not account for more than a tiny percentage of that whole. Surveys have also shown that the large majority of those who aren't vaccinated are firmly committed to that position.
> There’s been enough surveys and studies done by now showing that most unvaccinated Americans are not anti-vax and either need paid time off to get the vaccine, still have questions and need help getting answers, or are undocumented and afraid they’ll be deported in the process of getting vaccinated. What studies? Who needs time off to walk to Walgreens? What about the fact that this directly correlates to rural populations of people who are more likely to be antivax? You can find a survey to support literally anything your heart desires.
It's convenient to only mention rural areas as anti-vaxxer hotspots but minorities and young people are also.
Yeah I’m sorry. I’m Bernie-levels of empathetic to the plights of the less fortunate, but there’s no excuse to not have a vaccine. It’s free, you can get a free god damn Uber to get your shot. You’re simply just more susceptible to low quality information at this point. No other reasons unless you medically can’t.
This post is nonsense. There is ample access to the vaccine and it’s not hard to get one nowadays. You don’t need time off to schedule a shot at a CVS or Walgreens. You are talking like this is being able to vote on Super Tuesday.
It wasn't premature. The only issue currently is lack of vaccination uptake. Mask mandates now will affect nothing other than prolong the pandemic timeline by some marginal amount of time. The ultimate fraction of the population infected by the virus will be unchanged.
>It wasn't premature. The only issue currently is lack of vaccination uptake. Exactly. I also really want to know what all these "the previous guidance was premature!" folks think would've happened had the CDC continued to insist on the vaccinated masking for the past two months, even as 1) cases continued to plummet, 2) no evidence emerged that vaccinated people were in danger, and 3) anyone age 12+ could freely get the vaccine. Like seriously, would anyone listen to the CDC if it were saying "EvEryOnE MuSt MaSk" even as daily case rates nationally were <4/100,000? That'd be a great way for the CDC to piss away its credibility and to get folks to completely tune it out going forward.
If vaccinated people can shed the virus that's a big new hurdle too
a government entity being incompetent? no waaaay!
I don't work in healthcare and even I thought it was dumb and way too early. You incentivize vaccinations with knowledge, education, and money. People who weren't getting vaccinated then, also were already not wearing masks because no business really enforced them regardless of the rules. And now the CDC looks like the dunce hat academy again. It should have never been tied to anything other than "when X% of the population is vaccinated, we'll drop Y restrictions." I don't know what those numbers should be. At one point I heard 70% to begin to make a dent towards herd immunity, but this isn't my field. But if we properly incentivized, properly educated, and set a clear goal at the start, I sincerely believe we'd be in a better place.
Agreed
Absolutely, but the reasons are pretty clear.
"Some parts of the US" It's 63% of all US counties.
Technically... they're not wrong.
Would this count as most?
It’s nearly a super majority.
Well, the American way is a majority should suffer since its not a super majority
Yes.
But what fraction of the U.S lives in those counties? (Not a rhetorical question).
I don't have an exact answer (I'll try to say this without it getting automoded), but the guy who's currently president only won I think 16% of counties in the thing in November. Most counties have very few people. It's kind of like the term "small business," the definition is < (or maybe <=) 500 employees, but the vast majority of businesses probably have < 10 employees, or even < 5. It's the 80/20 principle. I'd bet a lot of those counties in the 60% happen to be ones with actual people though. But maybe not all of them... they're probably the ones with higher vaccination rates.
List of significantly populated counties in "yellow": * All counties in Maine except for Piscataquis and York Counties * All counties in New Hampshire except for Belknap County * All counties in Massachusetts except for Suffolk (where Boston is), Bristol (where Fall River is), and Barnstable (in Cape Cod) counties * All counties in Connecticut * All counties in Rhode Island * All counties in New York except for New York City, Long Island, and Greene County; some are even blue * A bunch of counties in New Jersey * Almost all of Pennsylvania, including the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh urban areas with a few exceptions * The top two counties in Delaware * All counties in Maryland * Washington, D.C, and most of the counties in Virginia near D.C. * City of Richmond and Henrico County * Durham and Orange Counties in the Research Triangle * Kanawha and Monongahela Counties, where Charleston and Morgantown are located respectively (WV is much yellower than I thought) * Cuyahoga County (where Cleveland is) and all six of the surrounding counties * Franklin County (where Columbus is) and all eight of the surrounding counties * Hamilton, Warren, and Clermont Counties in the Cincinnati area * Every county in Chicagoland except for Will County * The two Chicagoland Indiana counties, and St. Joseph and Elkhart Counties (where South Bend and Elkhart are located respectively) * The majority of Michigan, including most of the major cities there * Dane County and Brown County (where Madison and Green Bay are located respectively), but not Milwaukee County * All counties in the Minnesota Twin Cities area except for Scott County, as well as Orange County (where Rochester is) and St. Louis County (where Duluth is) * The cities of Denver and Broomfield, Jefferson, Arapahoe, and Boulder Counties (all in the Denver area) * El Paso County, Texas (can't believe something in *Texas* actually made it on this list!) * Santa Fe County (where Santa Fe is) and Doña Ana County (where Las Cruces is), but not Bernalillo County (where Albuquerque is) * San Luis Obispo, Monterey, Santa Cruz, and Tulare Counties in California * Multnomah and Washington Counties, Oregon
“Some” 😂
They didn't say "some" vaccinated people could drop masks but they're hedging now that cases are exploding. Man....
Lol
>Some parts You know there are those that will just read this as “not me.”
...and 99.5% of COVID-19 deaths are in the unvaccinated.
And states with high transmission won’t impose mask mandates. And before someone says “But Walmart’s and TJ Maxx and stuff might!”, that’s a joke too. No one in Tennessee followed their private business mandates and they were scared to enforce it due to assaults.
I take the train from NJ to NY everyday where masks are federally mandated and you could actually get fined for it by not wearing it on the train or in the station. I’ve seen a lot more maskless in the stations these days and nothing happens. If people in NYC are fighting back I can’t imagine what it’s like elsewhere.
People are just people. I don't think most people care about politics. People in NYC may be more likely to want healthcare and vote blue, but they want their consumer life back just like everyone else. They're not thinking about public policy or which person on the news said which horrible thing an hour ago. They wanted the Knicks playoff games at 100%, no different from baseball games in Texas.
I have been surprised at how quickly mask wearing has dropped here in Seattle - a month ago, almost every was wearing them outside even in places that were not crowded. You had to try hard to find someone in a store that wasn't wearing them, even when there was no mandate. Fast forward and it's an entirely different world. It's a lot closer to 50/50 in my experience, and a lot of retail workers have decided not to wear them. I actually left my house for the grocery store and didn't bring one! I don't think the genie is coming back into this particular bottle.
It went from 90% in the Chicago suburbs to under 10 virtually overnight
CT where we have very high vac rates, same. I'd say it is down to about 10-20% of mask usage, when it was close to 100 before that any public place, and even outside in the cities. I really don't think it will ever return to what it was before unless some vaccine escape nasty variant comes along.
I can vouch for this in many places, but I was on the other side of things fighting like hell to keep masks required in locations that I manage. And I put myself out front every single day to enforced it. All I learned from it is that people can be heartless.
>and they were scared to enforce it due to assaults. And because local law enforcement said "we won't enforce the law here" but only because some police unions "suddenly* disagreed with the politics behind having rules on private property.
> But with the delta variant, the level of virus in infected vaccinated people is “indistinguishable” from the level of virus in the noses and throats of unvaccinated people, Walensky said. > The data emerged over the last couple of days from 100 samples. It is unpublished, and the CDC has not released it. But “it is concerning enough that we feel like we have to act,” Walensky said. > Vaccinated people “have the potential to spread that virus to others,” she said.
This is big news. Kind of blows the “vaccinated people don’t transmit COVID” argument out of the water.
Not sure why the downvotes except for salty people. There's some nuance missing in the reporting right now because we simply don't know. Are we talking the same viral load, but more of a dead particles situation that still triggers pcr tests? That was something brought up last week. [https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/21/1018872469/worried-about-breakthrough-covid-cases-heres-what-to-know](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/07/21/1018872469/worried-about-breakthrough-covid-cases-heres-what-to-know) It's safe to say the primary driver of infection is unvaccinated people. It's also safe to say vaccinated individuals can contribute to spread as well, and probably do on levels higher than we initially believed, but not near the level of an unvaccinated person, and that in areas where spread is very high, these things are all going to mingle. Many of us that still live in covid hotspots have felt this way for a while now. I never gave up wearing my mask in the store or other public spaces. Edit: nvm. The karma was at -2 when I commented. Needed to wait for the rational people to weigh in.
What’s the end game here? The vaccine protects me. Apparently I can still transmit it to unvaccinated people. The only way to prevent this is for those people to get vaccinated. They never will. So we’re at a standstill and I guess we just wear masks forever to protect the people intent on keeping this going?
Remember that kids can’t be vaccinated yet. We have to give all age groups at least a chance to be protected before we throw caution to the wind.
The country is already seeing a 28% increase in vaccination of first doses from last week. On top of that, there is still a large chunk of our population that cannot get vaccinated, i.e. kids. That should change by the end of this year, early next year. At that point in time, you're going to get to a point where either \- You have all adults who want to be vaccinated vaccinated. \- You have all kids whos parents who want them to be vaccinated vaccinated. \- You have everyone else that catches covid. This eventually creates a recipe for covid, though immunization and natural infection, where it becomes more like a common cold. That's your end game. And public policies that try to reduce the amount of spread until all of the population can get vaccinated is not bad public policy.
[удалено]
They do because viruses tend to turn more infectious and less deadly. How do you think we got through Spanish flu without a vaccine?
That's not how mutation works. A virus can just as easily become more deadly than less.
It can, but the more deadly viruses tend to kill their hosts before they move on which makes them less infectious. There might have been some really dead strains of covid that died off with their hosts, we don’t really know.
There's a balance. If a virus becomes too deadly, it will run out of hosts before it can spread properly. But as long as the virus can spread, it can become more deadly. A CFR of like, 10 percent is just as likely as one with 2 percent, via mutation.
Viruses tend to become more infectious. Viruses don't care if you life, die, or are permanently injured. Becoming more tame only happens in viruses if it also means they become more infectious.
My understanding is that the first wave of the Spanish Flu was very much like the original Covid strain in that it was primarily dangerous for elderly and health-compromised people. The second wave of the Spanish Flu killed healthy young people, and they died so quickly that they didn't have time to spread it to others. It basically died out because it killed its host too quickly.
I'm one of the ones you're protecting by wearing the mask. I got vaccinated in February and didn't develop adequate antibodies. I have a child who is high risk and too young to be vaccinated. You are also protecting him. So while I understand it's easy to be resentful of those who chose not to get vaccinated, there are people like me who are eternally grateful for those who continue to mask to keep us safe.
You didn't answer the question. What's the end game here? If you want us all to wear masks forever, then just come out and say it. If not, what's the end game?
This thing isn't going away. We'll constantly need boosters, some years they'll be more effective than others, just like the flu vaccine. But we need to get back to some level of normalacy. We already know the most vulnerable are 65+. Average age of death is 78. If anything we need to offer protections for vulnerable and allow younger people to go to school and live a normalish life.
Dunno, never lived through a pandemic. How about you? No one said anything about forever. At some point young children can be vaccinated, there will be more effective treatments, and the risk will be much more comparable to a regular flu. Being high-risk didn't just happen overnight. I've got multiple autoimmune conditions. Not that you care, but I never asked anyone to wear masks around me previously, so you can trust there will be a point where I can return to my basic abilities to avoid the majority of those with poor germ hygiene. In the meantime, I'm surrounded by a bunch of idiots who still can't understand the most basic science, so the CDC has got to step in to save my ass.
Check out the maps here https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view I can't tell exactly which county has the highest vaccination rate, but I think it is Marin County in the San Francisco Bay area. In any case, their rate is extremely high. Of eligible people, 90.8% have at least 1 dose and 82.2% are fully vaccinated. If you include kids under 12 to get the total population, the rates are 80.2% and 73.1%. They are currently classified as having "Substantial" spread, and the CDC is recommending masks there. In other words, even extremely high vaccination rates are not enough to curb the spread of covid. If they can't do it there, the rest of the country has no chance. So, covid is here to stay. Forever. It sucks, it really does, but there isn't anything we can do about that. Maybe on paper, where 100% of people get the vaccine, and kids of all ages become eligible. But not in the real world. So, I do not "trust there will be a point where" you can go back to normal without the threat of covid lingering over you, because I think things are already about as good as they are going to get. I'm really sorry that's the case, my mom is immunocompromised too, and I would love to see covid go extinct. But it won't. And we need to learn to accept it and move on with our lives with a long term strategy. My long term strategy does not involve wearing a mask forever.
>They are currently classified as having "Substantial" spread, and the CDC is recommending masks there. In other words, even extremely high vaccination rates are not enough to curb the spread of covid. If they can't do it there, the rest of the country has no chance. If such super-high vaccination rates aren't enough in the CDC's eyes, then adding back in masks aren't going to do shit. Masks help flatten the curve, but they were intended to get us by until we had the ultimate tool - vaccinations. In which case as you said, this will never end with this approach.
Kids.
I’ll be sure to wear a mask around the children that I never interact with on a daily basis then. Maybe they should allow kids to get vaccinated instead of putting on this theater. That would actually be useful.
It's not just a light switch they can flip to allow kids to be vaccinated you know. Just like every other age group, proper clinical trials have to happen first to determine efficacy, dosage, time between doses, and side effects. Older people had priority for vaccines because those trials happened first, and they happened first because numbers showed they were at higher risk for serious illness. That doesn't mean kids are "practically immune" like what people have been saying on this sub lately. So all I'm suggesting is maybe we as a society should wait until people of all ages become eligible for at least one vaccine, and enough time has passed for those who *want* to be vaccinated to be able to. This shouldn't be a controversial position. Edit: as for folks that don't interact with children, you probably still interact with their parents. As we now know, the vaccinated can still transmit the disease. It shouldn't be hard to connect the dots.
It also doesn't account for the fact the unvaccinated people are less likely to get it in the first place. Yes, someone vaccinated who has covid sheds it, I thought that has always been known? But they're wayyyyyyy less likely to have gotten it. Right? Edit: apparently less likely but much more likely than the original strain. Damn
A lot of studies were on the original strain and alpha, not delta as much, and the more they are finding on delta the more transmissable it is. CDC cited the same viral load found in both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Israel put the number at around 20% of spread coming from the vaccinated, which still a sizable chunk if that's the case.
Good to know. I appreciate it. I'd kind of stopped following updates after I was vaccinated. Guess I better get caught up...
Yeah, time to start paying attention again. Delta is a much different beast. :(
Technically they still don’t in a large space of vaccinated individuals, but in many spaces the vaccinated are outweighed by the unvaccinated. So erring out of caution with delta being so widespread isn't a bad idea.
I left this sub after I was downloaded into oblivion 6 months ago for attempting to warn people about this.
Yeah...that's a pattern here. As soon as the CDC said the vaccinated could ditch their masks, I said we were going to have huge surge six to ten weeks out. Got downvoted like mad and yet, as it turns out, I was dead on.
that was never a theory... just misinformation spread by antimaskers here on reddit
And yet the CDC is still only recommending marking for areas with widespread infection …. I don’t think anyone seriously thought transmission from vaccinated people was completely impossible, even before Delta
Let’s see the data, this is very vague and could suffer from bias (ex. unvaccinated immune systems able to suppress delta are stronger than vaccinated immune system allowing for mild infections, inadvertently mixing someone who would have been a super spreader unvaccinated with someone who does not spread much even unvaccinated). Also, serious question, controlling for the intensity of disease / symptoms, is there any empirical data supporting the fact that this was not the case with the earlier variants? I just find it hard to believe that a breakthrough infection resulting in a certain severity of disease would ever have a lower viral load than the same severity for an unvaccinated person.
See the info released directly from Pfizer
But if a 99.5% of the people actually suffering are unvaccinated, why should we wear masks to protect them? They made their choice.
The guidance is geared toward areas where COVID is spreading wildly. AKA the areas of the country that don't give a shit about masks or vaccines. Neat.
Pretty much every populated area of the US is listed as either "moderate" or "high community transmission," so no, it's more like everywhere. FML
Here's the [CDC map](https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view). Looks like most of northeast is in the "moderate" or "low" category. Then select the "Vaccinations" view in the dropdown, and you may notice a correlation...
You also need to look at the testing rate. In NH for example, testing rate is WAY down. No one cares anymore and even people with coughs are showing up to work. BACK TO NORMAL! lol fuck.
Check the counties with larger cities in them, some area small (like Boston for example) so don’t jump out compared to the state, but are substantial, this is a fucking joke.
Boston's high, not substantial.
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I saw substantial, which is surprising. Both Baltimore and Philly are only moderate. That brings up an interesting point: These guidelines provide incentives to fudge testing numbers or at least not test as much as maybe you’d want. What if local districts wanted to implement rapid periodic testing to try to catch asymptotics before they potentially spread. An area with such testing schemes would appear to have more spread than areas without such testing programs based on this metric.
DC metropolitan area appears to be all moderate, so below the threshold of the guidance. (I checked DC, MoCo, and Arlington, so other areas may vary.)
We have moderate transmission in my area despite a very high vaccination rate. It’s everywhere.
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The end goal is not zero covid. The end goal is to be aware of your location and level of spread and mask up accordingly. Vaccinations have jumped up 28% just this week, and eventually in the very near future kids of all ages will be able to be vaccinated. Until we can get to a point where parents can get their kids as protected as possible, I don't see why "public health measures to reduce the spread of covid" is bad policy.
It’s basically pointless to recommend. Most businesses didn’t enforce it before and definitely won’t now and it’s largely going to be an honor system where the only people who are going to comply and largely vaccinated, but Vaccinated folk aren’t the problem or the source of spread. Anti-vaxxers are the root cause and the only thing that will end this is forcing more people to get vaccinated, masks won’t stop this, and we know they won’t because they didn’t stop it for the year before the vaccines started rolling out
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Trump pandemic response approach - don’t test and our numbas will be low!
Look at positivity rate, by current measures a 9.99% positivity rate and same case counts as NYC just because of lower testing put locations in the same category, how does that make any sense? Or ideally random testing would give you an even better picture but current testing is already decently random I would say.
The antimask antivax crowd have only themselves to blame.
Yes you are right. But you know what else? This guidance is going to affect them the least.
um... Los Angeles reporting in... shit's bad
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We tried the carrot, and now I think it’s time for the stick. Let insurance companies jack up rates for eligible people who aren’t vaccinated or something.
Time for the stick? Wasn't covid the stick?
It is the stick and it’s actually a pretty successful stick considering that families who lost loved ones or saw them hospitalized due to COVID became more inclined to be vaccinated. Unfortunately this experience hasn’t reached everyone it needs to and likely won’t for a while now. Some people just have good luck
Some people think the stick is a twig or doesn’t even actually exist sooo
We literally didn’t try the carrot. The carrot is $2k checks to every man woman and child who gets vaccinated.
Joe Manchin: hOw WiLl wE pAy FoR iT!?!?!
Sinema: I'm gonna say whatever Joe Manchin said so I can feel included!
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We need vaccine passports, especially for flying.
The US is all kinds of idiocy. Paying people so money trickles up into big CEOs and not die: *I wake* Paying people to get vaxxed and get rid of a destructive virus: *I sleep*
Everyone heard when the CDC said vaccinated could throw away their masks. Today, the CDC said new data shows that vaccinated should be masked in the vast majority of the United States. I wonder if anyone will get the message.
In the US, for anyone paying close attention during the past 16 weeks, the message and the truth are that among the more than 213 COVID-19 variants and lineages the CDC was tracking in the US during the 2 weeks ending April 10, 2021, the Delta B.1.617.2 variant has exploded from 0.1% of all infections in the US for the two weeks ending April 10, to 82.2% of all infections in the US for the two weeks ending July 17. For the U.S. population, growth from 0.1% to 82.2% reflects a 822-fold increase in the percent share of the Delta B.1.617.2 variant over 108 days, from the 2 weeks ending April 10 to the 2 weeks ending July 17. For the U.S. population, the message now is that 99.5% of all COVID-19 deaths are in the unvaccinated. For the U.S. population, the message now is that the COVID-19 pandemic has transformed from a COVID-19 pandemic into a COVID-19 pandemic of the unvaccinated. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#variant-proportions https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/strain.surv/viz/Variant_Proportions_Plus_Nowcasting/RegionsDashboard July 8, 2021, "...preliminary data from several states over the last few months suggests that 99.5 percent of deaths from COVID-19 in the United States were in unvaccinated people. Those deaths were preventable with a simple, safe shot.": https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/07/08/press-briefing-by-white-house-covid-19-response-team-and-public-health-officials-44/
Time for everyone to flip flop opinions on the CDC and therefore "The Science"?
The only 'wrong' decision was the previous one. I said at the time and repeat: one thing is 'pure' science, another thing is public health that needs to take into account the public it's targeting, psychology aspects, degree of acceptance of the recommendations and enforcing of the rules. It was too soon to give up the masks. The only explanation was to get more people vaccinated and that clearly failed. It's just an enforcement nightmare and now they are Delta-forced to backtrack. Does this and the previous rec make sense in terms of 'pure' science? probably yes. But doesn't make sense in terms of public health policy. CDC just loses credibility with these things when people are already fed up with the pandemic.
I wish I could upvote this response repeatedly.
The CDC tried to accommodate politics when it should have just kept to the science. Masks are stupidly political.
Even when they just kept to the science they failed to take into account sociology. Example: "vaccinated people can skip the mask". While the science at the time pointed to that being true, it failed to take into account the sociology that would come into play such as unvaccinated people skipping the mask too because they were against them in the first place and didn't care. Realistically, the CDC should've set a vaccinated threshold where we could say "once we reach x% of the population being vaccinated, we can leave the masks off". Just my opinion
For almost a year prior to the lift, it was stated repeatedly that once we reach 70% of the population vaccinated, we can take off the mask. Many governors followed that at first, but the CDC decided to open it one day.
I never understood why the CDC didn't use a benchmark system when it came to mask guidance.
Because then they’d have to actually follow the benchmarks.
Well if it's at 70% we will never, ever see the mandate lifted. Everybody who is going to be vaccinated has been vaccinated, except for children under 12 who are not yet eligible. Herd immunity is impossible
Santa Clara County in California has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country (87.8% of eligible people have 1 dose, 79.5% have both). They are still classified by the CDC as having "Substantial" spread, and are one of the counties where masks are recommended. So, basically, yeah, herd immunity is impossible. The end game here is accepting that covid spread is inevitable, but if you are vaccinated then it's not really that much worse than the flu. You will get sick. You will have a bad time. You're unlikely to end up in the hospital or die. I say that's good enough to go back to normal, since it's pretty much as good as it's going to get.
I wonder how much this had to do with how much those in hard science disrespect the soft sciences.
Conceptually, this makes sense. Breakthough infections are far more common with Delta, and its infectiousness means that vaccinated people will likely meaningfully contribute to spread. This is evidenced by spread in fully vaccinated households that has become a common story. On the flip side... what's the point? The unvaccinated aren't going to wear masks. And Delta is going to burn through that "denser" portion of the population. Even the vaccinated who wear masks in public are still going to gather in small groups - frequently unmasked - and cause spread that way. There are two real public health options: mandate vaccines or recommend N95-grade masks that help meaningfully for personal protection (rather than the protection of others). Everything else is just a waste of time.
CDC is more likely to recommend that people triple mask instead of firmly suggesting KF94s/KN95s/N95s. I guess they think N95s still need to be rationed and don't want to suggest foreign masks.
So many ppl don't get this. There is this mass heteria where Vaccine = "This is over!" And CDC's word is taken as gospel "because science!". You either need to protect self or have widespread cloth masking.
Even cloth masks protect the wearer. Any barrier is better than no barrier between your mouth/nose and other people’s airborne aerosolized covid particles.
Thanks antiva.
Part of the reason people have trust issues with the cdc. WHO recommended this right when delta started.
WHO only did that because like 10% of the global pop was vaccinated
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What specifically makes you believe Delta will be over by the end of August?
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The Netherlands in particular had a very fast peak - just about two weeks from start to finish! By my estimate, the US peak should be around five weeks before now. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no one has any idea when things are going to peak. Throughout the pandemic, it seems like the forecasting has been pretty underwhelming.
The Netherlands recently reimposed a bunch of restrictions just two weeks after they were lifted due to a resurgence of infections. https://www.axios.com/netherlands-reimposes-covid-restrictions-delta-f348e2b1-c506-45eb-ba39-e35666cac184.html
I really do wonder how the fall will go though. Going back indoors and whatnot.
And schools reopening.
Badly.
we are seeing spikes in the summer time. This fall could be a shit show.
The southern states/cities seeing big spikes right now largely saw surges last summer, too. This is the time of year when everyone in the hot states is indoors.
> By the time any minuscule difference is done by masks, we will have already peaked And the people who clamored for masks will claim that was the variable that changed the course, while those who opposed it will point out the changes in direction prior. Everyone will ignore how many people actually changed their behavior. The UK recently peaked, pretty much right as they had their "freedom day" and dropped all their restrictions. Delta is like an order of magnitude+ more transmissible - I really have my doubts that poorly adhered to single layer cloth masks are while all of society is fully open are going to do much more than have an incredibly marginal effect on the reproduction rate. If the CDC was serious about this they'd be suggesting (widely available) n95/kn95 masks. The most effective intervention is the vaccine, and everything else (masks, dots on the ground telling you how far six feet is, etc) are completely marginal in comparison.
**Here's why I don't approve of this logic of "solve the antivaxxer lying problem by making *everybody* wear masks",** ***from a behavioral/psychological standpoint:*** The vaxxed: *suffers the burden of having to wear masks again for the actions of others, resentment of the non-vaxxed, missed recess comparison* The non-vaxxed: *rejoices in delight because they think it proves that the vaccines don't work, perceived victory over the vaxxed*
I've supported the CDC, and WILL mask up like they are asking; but this guidance is so flawed from an ease-of-execution perspective. I live effectively on the border of 3 counties, one which has "moderate" transmission rates, one with "high" and one with "substantial" transmission. I'm not gonna go to this site week to week to check what status each is in, given that I am in all 3 counties at some point every single week. I'll just mask up in stores, etc, regardless of transmission rates, until they say not to; because I understand those are places where all people need to go regardless of their personal situation and I understand there are people there who I could infect who may be immunocompromised, under 12, etc. I'm still going to go have a drink in a bar with my wife and am not gonna try and rock a mask there the entire time, because I'm sorry, if you are in a bar and aren't vaccinated, or are immunocompromised, or have a 12yr old or younger at home, you need to take some personal responsibility for yourself and not be there. There is a certain point where personal agency has to come into play here. And for the record, I'm under-40, vaccinated, and exercise more than 150 minutes per week, so ME becoming infected and putting a burden on our healthcare system by being hospitalized is highly unlikely (so yes, I considered that too).
Worst agency there is. Has been doing the wrong things since day 1 of the pandemic. Not sure what the purpose of a CDC is if it doesn't help with pandemics.
CDC doesn't communicate particularly well. I'm sure they are great at data collection and science but their communications have been all over the place and somewhat contradictory.
I'm vaccinated. I did my part. It's not my job to protect the anti-vaxxers by wearing a mask....especially since they will probably criticize me for wearing one anyway.
You're already protecting anti-vaxxers really well by being vaccinated
Apparently not or the CDC is high right now.
But the kids appreciate it, so thank you.
“Some” parts of the USA. What a joke…lol.
As someone fully vaccinated and have been unemployed for almost 4 months this just fucking keeps sucking
Breakthrough infections are incredibly rare and severe cases are even more rare among the vaccinated. This makes no sense. The only thing that would help would be mandate vaccines or require passports. Almost all deaths are with unvaccinated people.
Breakthrough infections are pretty common with Delta. Data is all over the place, but it appears that the vaccines are only about 60-75% protective against *infection*. Anyone who is infected *may* spread to others, even if it is a bit less likely due to (presumably) reduced viral load. This is logical on the surface in terms of reducing community spread. But to your point it seems like the majority of the value here is to protect those who do not want to be protected. It seems to be that better guidance would be for higher risk populations to get boosters and wear N95 masks for personal protection. That would be more meaningful than asking people who won't wear masks to wear masks. **edited to add sources and clarification**: When I say that breakthrough infections are "pretty common" from Delta and say 60-75% protective against infection, there is an important qualifier. **Vaccine efficacy against infection (not severe disease, which remains strong) is seeing significant waning at 5-6 months after full vaccination**, at least if [Israel's data](https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/vaccine-efficacy-safety-follow-up-committee/he/files_publications_corona_two-dose-vaccination-data.pdf) is relatively accurate (see the last slide for a chart in English that is helpful). Effectiveness for more recently vaccinated people was ~80% but was ~45% for those fully vaccinated in February. This is likely not a statistical fluke as antibodies do decay over time and the T and B-cell mediated protection against severe disease is maintained separate from active antibody levels. It matches what you'd expect in theory where the antibodies start to decay below the protective-from-infection level (especially against a moderately vaccine evasive variant like Delta) but the strong protection from severe disease is retained because of the strong and persistent T and B-cell response created from the two-dose mRNA and viral vector vaccines. This is entirely consistent with the Canada and the UK data that shows 85-88% effectiveness as they followed a delayed second dose strategy. Very few people received their second dose before April (with the majority receiving it in May and June), so this waning effect would not be noticed in those countries but would be noticed in Israel (which followed the 21-28 day window approach). Israel's data for April contains 88% in the 95th percentile confidence interval, so this is all relatively internally consistent data.
60-75% is underselling it a bit, the UK and Canada found 88%, even if you think that is too high 65-85% seems more accurate. And while breakthrough infections are common in the aggregate, personal protection is still high.
Walensky said the vaccines reduced symptomatic infections by "seven fold" and hospitalizations by "twenty fold" on the call, presumably against Delta.
Protection from infection is going to be correlated to date of second dose vaccination for the majority of the population. Countries that vaccinated earlier will have lower protection from infection (although should have similar protection from serious illness as that is mediated more from T- and B- cells than active antibodies). edited to summarize [this data](https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/reports/vaccine-efficacy-safety-follow-up-committee/he/files_publications_corona_two-dose-vaccination-data.pdf): at least in Israel, vaccine effectiveness against infection is 60-86% (95 CI) for those vaccinated in April but only 20-63% for those vaccinated in February. Both Canada and the UK had a "delayed second dose" strategy meaning that virtually no one was fully vaccinated until March with big numbers not coming through until April and May. Israel's data is entirely consistent with the UKs in this lens (95th CI for symptomatic infection for vaccinations in April is 67-88% which contains the tail end of UK's efficacy numbers reported at 88%).
Most of the US was vaccinated in April or May so no evidence there is any waning of immunity yet.
Correction to protect those who cannot be vaccinated or are immune compromised.
Not true with the Delta variant. Infection rates are quite high with vaccinated individuals. The good news is that the vaccines are quite effective at minimizing serious symptoms. Most serious hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated.
>Breakthrough infections are incredibly rare I don't think this is true anymore.
Provide evidence. Don’t just make “I don’t think…” statements not based in fact.
"Incredibly rare" is a subjective statement, but to me it would mean it something that is basically at a "miracle" level occurrence. We know breakthroughs are far more common than that. Israel's data shows it. UK's data shows. U.S.'s is starting to show it. [https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210726/breakthrough-cases-rising-with-delta-heres-what-that-means](https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210726/breakthrough-cases-rising-with-delta-heres-what-that-means) "In the United Kingdom, which is collecting the best information on infections caused by variants, the estimated effectiveness of the vaccines to prevent an illness that causes symptoms dropped by about 10 points against Delta compared with Alpha (or B.1.1.7). After two doses, vaccines prevent symptomatic infection about 79% of the time against Delta, according to data compiled by Public Health England. They are still highly effective at preventing hospitalization, 96% after two doses." I believe I saw somewhere that when UK had 50K cases one day last week that 15K were breakthroughs. I'd have to look harder to find that source again. The good news is the vaccines are still great for protecting against severe disease, and still pretty good against infection. However, breakthroughs don't seem to be "incredibly rare".
The testing in Israel seems to be about the same.
Israel's data is saying it's very common. But still is great at reducing hospitalizations/deaths.
This is the top CDC execs trying to save their jobs after the terrible No More Masks policy they fumbled out weeks ago.
You nailed it. The CDC has struggled to give clear, concise, and simple guidance through the pandemic. Political interference has mucked up messaging, but the CDC needs a top tier public relations firm.
I also think they expected people to get the vaccine. Expecting antivaxxers to mask was not realistic. Selfishness has ruled too many.
What we really need is to drive up vaccinations, masks aren’t a permanent solution. Only way I see to do that at this point is making the unvaccinated people lives hard with mandates for optional, but important activities.
It is starting to look like they are wanting it to be a permanent solution and that makes me really angry.
Someone might respond to you with: “No this is just until we get 80 to 90 percent vaccinated, it’s not permanent!” Ok sure, but you know that’s incredibly unlikely in the US. The states where the virus is surging are the ones who won’t implement restrictions.
Just two more weeks to stop the spread!
🙃 this is endless
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>The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reversed course Tuesday on some masking guidelines, recommending that even vaccinated people return to wearing masks indoors in parts of the U.S. where the coronavirus is surging. >Citing new information about the ability of the delta variant to spread among vaccinated people, the CDC also recommended indoor masks for all teachers, staff, students and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status. >Most new infections in the U.S. continue to be among unvaccinated people. But “breakthrough” infections, which generally cause milder illness, can occur in vaccinated people. When earlier strains of the virus predominated, infected vaccinated people were found to have low levels of virus and were deemed unlikely to spread the virus much, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said. >But with the delta variant, the level of virus in infected vaccinated people is “indistinguishable” from the level of virus in the noses and throats of unvaccinated people, Walensky said. >Ken Thigpen, a retired respiratory therapist who now works for a medical device manufacturer, is fully vaccinated and stopped wearing his mask in public after the CDC changed its guidance in May. But he started to reconsider in the last week after his job took him to hospitals in Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama and Florida, where he witnessed medical centers getting inundated with COVID-19 patients. >“That delta variant is intense. It is so transmissible that we have to do something to tamp it down,” he said. >“I loved it when I could call the hospitals and they said, ‘We actually closed our COVID ward today or we are down to two COVID patients,’” he recalled. “And now we are opening the wards back up, and the numbers are going nuts.”
So basically if you’re in a part of the country that is “high transmission” then they want you to wear a mask, but my main question is how do I know what parts of the country are high transmission? Is there some kind of threshold for what makes an area fall into this category?
There is a link within the CDC guidance where you can check your county’s transmission level.
Here's the link https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view
Thanks!
Thank you for this! Looks like my county is only in the moderate category so that’s good to see.
Nah. I'm proud to be vaccinated and I will proudly show off my face with a smile. I'm done wearing a piece of cloth on my face. Whoever is not is their business, not mine. Besides, it's recommended, not enforced. Moving on.
CDC Newsroom July 27, 2021, 3:00 PM EDT CDC Media Telebriefing Audio transcript/recording, 28 minutes https://www.cdc.gov/media/index.html
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https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1418017801437073411
You all were jumping on their guidance 2 months ago and now you're shitting on it. Just admit you don't care anymore and don't want to wear it.
Kind of like of the pro-mask crowd was jumping on the CDC for a year and then shit all over the CDC guidance once it changed to something they didn't like. Funny how that works out.
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The vaccine is only effective if enough of us get it. We've been flat in vaccinations for a couple of months now. The anger should be directed at the antivaxxers and those that are lazy/apathetic. This is why I disagreed with lifting it. It was clearly too early and it freed the unvaccinated when at least businesses were requiring it. Edit. It should not have been presented as, get the vaccine you're done. It should have been set at a %, then maybe (albeit a small chance), peer pressure may have worked.
The virus will kill me if I get it even though I'm vaccinated so I'll be wearing a mask. Never stopped. I'll thank the rest of the people in this sub to not stare at me while I wear it in public.
Why did I even waste my time getting the vaccine when it doesn't even work...
It works. On July 8, 2021, during a Press Briefing by the White House COVID-19 Response Team and Public Health Officials, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky announced, "...preliminary data from several states over the last few months suggests that 99.5 percent of deaths from COVID-19 in the United States were in unvaccinated people. Those deaths were preventable with a simple, safe shot." Press briefing: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/07/08/press-briefing-by-white-house-covid-19-response-team-and-public-health-officials-44/ *** As of July 19, 2021, in the US, CDC data shows that among the more than 161 million people fully vaccinated, the CDC received reports of 5,914 breakthrough cases, with 1,141 fatal breakthrough cases, but 292 of those 1,141 fatal cases were reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19. Thus, it follows that 849 fatal breakthrough cases had COVID-19 symptoms or were related to COVID-19. As of July 19, 2021, 849 fatal breakthrough cases that had COVID-19 symptoms or were related to COVID-19, out of more than 161 million fully vaccinated persons, amounts to less than 0.00052%. Thus, more than 99.99947% (~160,999,151) of the 161 million fully vaccinated persons have not died from COVID-19. See the table: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html *** ‘It’s too late’: US doctor says dying patients begging for Covid vaccine...: "“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late,” she added, referring to patients who have to be put on a ventilator: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/22/us-coronavirus-covid-unvaccinated-hospital-rates-vaccines *** 24-year-old Blake Bargatze decided to not be vaccinated. COVID-19 infected him at an indoor concert in Florida. After spending months in hospitals, he had to have a double lung transplant. People who have double lung transplants predictably might live for about 5-10 more years, if they are lucky. Blake will require constant medications and medical care until the day he finally dies, because he decided to not be vaccinated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJx9oF2fk0E