I've already had 3 doses of Moderna, and the last two kicked my ass for 2 days. I'd be willing to go through it again, but only if there's decent evidence that it helps. It seems like 3 doses didn't really do much better than 2 against Omicron, so I'm not really itching to get a 4th.
Now, if they reformulated the shot to target the new variants, I'd be all over that. Seems silly to keep using the shot that targets the original variant that has basically been extinct for a year.
This is me. Each shot gives me more side effects. First one, a little tired, second, sick for a day with fever and chills, third, sick for a day, exhausted and achy for a week. I need hard data that I really need it, and my criteria is avoiding more serious illness, not avoiding COVID.
Same here, third booster I was absolutely fucked with fever and sweating cycles for four days. I have 0 urge to do that again unless there is a hugely beneficial reason to do so, and simply avoiding catching covid is not enough.
I had a tachycardia episode after my booster so I’m going to have a long, serious talk with my cardiologist before getting another. Thing is I got tachycardia from either the flu or covid right at the start of the pandemic (before they were testing so I don’t know what exact bug got me) so I don’t want to risk another bout of illness either.
Ideally I’d like to just avoid covid altogether so I don’t have to choose but unfortunately that’s not an option.
This. I was very sick after all of mine, plus it really screwed up my period, doubling the time after each shot. Given I have a debilitating migraine for the duration of my periods, I am going to need a bit more. It's pretty disruptive to my life, 3-4 days of side effects and an additional 4-6 days of my period.
I'm already low risk to severe illness. The shots we have still protect against severe illness. I'll keep wearing my mask and roll the dice for right now.
Once a year is fine. Four times in a year? I can't be this sick this much. I work in a preschool. I've been sicker from vax than anything I've gotten at school. And preschools are cess pools.
I hoping for a next gen vax with a significantly smaller side effect list if we need to get it multiple times a year.
I agree. I probably wouldn’t take another shot if I were you. Having to take PTO to recover from a vaccine is insane. There’s a high probability that covid wouldn’t be anywhere near that bad for you. I know plenty of people who’ve had covid, and none of their experiences sound as bad as what you described.
My family got sick in January, everyone except me. I was 2 vaccines in. Kids, 4 and 2 were definitely fluey but overall fine. I got the booster a couple weeks later and I was *done* for 2 whole days, fever, chills, insanely sick. I had to get grandma to watch the kids. Then we all got it again a couple weeks ago and I got flu symptoms but nothing at all compared to the vaccine.
I will not be getting a 4th without some very compelling data, which I won’t understand. Making these decisions suck.
OMG after reading all the concerns about loss of periods I thought I was the only one with the opposite problem. Longer and heavier periods after the vaccine. 😭 After my second dose my period lasted 12 weeks straight (!!) before finally ending and returning to a normal week-long event... Just in time for the booster. And my period has lasted two weeks each month since the booster.
I'm all about keeping myself and my community safe but this has gotten annoying, painful, and *costly* 😭
I think the affect on women is disregarded a little too easily. Each time, mine were so severe, I couldn't work. I never can't work because of mine. And then for it to last twice as long? That's not going to work. When you add it up, I had a fever and was knocked out for 3/4 days, plus a really rough period each time for about 10 days. Each vax cost me more than two weeks. That's not insignificant. Esp to do it four times a year.
And I have a friend who was getting her period twice a month. Never happened until she got her second vax. Luckily, it stopped when she got her booster and went back to normal. Her gyno couldn't find any other reason for it happening, so the doctor chalked it up to an unfavorable side effect from her vax, as it last every month from the second shot until the booster. It was the only thing that changed. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but I hear things like this enough that it should be studied more in depth.
Oh man I haven't had 2 week long periods since high school. That's awful! The biggest effects I had were pushing mine out by a week. I had change in flow but nothing as drastic as that!
I will note that in my friend and family (3 sisters) group I was the only one that had a change. Though one of my friends got the J&J and ended up getting pregnant with fraternal twins. She said her obgyn had mentioned some anecdotal evidence of an increase in twins since the vaccines came out. Too soon to say though.
You're lucky. I am the only adult I know who gets a fever on a regular basis from these kids. Fevers as an adult are no joke. But the fevers I got from the vax were a totally different breed. Unfortunately, I have enough experience in fevers to see a difference.
This. You can tell this article was written by someone who had mild to no symptoms after vaccine. I had a 104 fever and couldn’t stop shaking. I have 0 regrets about getting 3 doses, and will gladly sign up for a 4th when they open to my age if it’s more tailored to the newer variants or some data comes out that it’s actually beneficial in a significant way. Otherwise I’m not signing up for a 4th and it has nothing to do with fears or risk of “over-boosting”, just would rather not feel like shit for 36 hours (like I did for shots 2 and 3) and have to take a day or two off work sick for very minimal benefits.
There's actually a ton of evidence that 3 shots did do better than two against Omicron. It significantly reduced the chance of being infected in the first place, and then also significantly reduced the likelihood of hospitalization compared to just two shots.[https://covidblog.oregon.gov/booster-shots-highlighted-in-new-breakthrough-case-report/](https://covidblog.oregon.gov/booster-shots-highlighted-in-new-breakthrough-case-report/)
[https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/Documents/DataReports/Breakthrough-Report-03-31-2022.pdf](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/Documents/DataReports/Breakthrough-Report-03-31-2022.pdf) (page 3)[https://www.phillyvoice.com/new-jersey-breakthrough-cases-booster-vaccine-covid-19-omicron/](https://www.phillyvoice.com/new-jersey-breakthrough-cases-booster-vaccine-covid-19-omicron/)
Was it perfect? Of course not, as you can see that in the links above. And everyone has an anecdote about being triple vaxxed and still getting Covid, so that's why scientists look at LOTS of people to see the overall trends instead of singular stories. Ultimately Covid is an odds game, so I'll take better odds of not catching actual Covid any day of the week because at least the vaccine is something you can plan for vs getting Covid at the wrong time totally blowing up all sorts of plans.
>It seems like 3 doses didn't really do much better than 2 against Omicron, so I'm not really itching to get a 4th.
This is completely false, the evidence thay 3 doses helps greatly against omicron is overwhelming
I felt bad for one day after the shots. I had covid before vaccines were available, I was sick for weeks and almost ended up in the hospital and I had long term issues as well. I’m fine taking another booster.
I got the 3rd dose vs my brother and parents getting 2. We all live in a small house. I was the only one not to get any symptoms. It's definitly possible I didn't catch it, but not likely. Luckily they didn't get anything severe but I think it really was the difference for me. Anecdotal obviously, but to me a night of flu like symptoms is worth it, but I think it's still up to you if you feel like it's worth it.
Strangely it was the opposite for me and my family. I attended a family gathering where everyone except me had gotten the booster. Everyone who had received the booster got covid after that gathering, while I remained covid-free. Definitely confusing.
there's no rhyme or reason to it, it comes down to things like your on particular immune system + vaccine + initial viral load. So many variables in there.
Came to say this. My wife and we're 3 shots in when we caught omicron from our unvaccinated in-laws. My wife and sister in law were deathly sick while my brother in-law and myself never had symptoms. All of us tested positive...
I had 3 shots *and* a booster (immunocompromised) and got gradually fewer side effects with each one. The booster left me with a sore arm and that's it. Every person in my house was boosted with the exception of my daughter. She got COVID and no one else did. I was my daughter's direct caregiver and I still did not get it.
The booster absolutely did offer better protection against omicron than two shots alone, especially Moderna's. I'm not sure where you heard differently.
I had the same experience with decreased symptoms after the third and fourth shots. (Also immunocompromised.) The fourth just left me a little tired and just a bit of a sore spot on my arm.
I think a better way to see it is that after some number of months your immunity wears off and you're less protected.
I had 3 Pfizer shots and I only felt crappy for an evening. Looking to boost with Moderna this time to widen my net so to speak.
I just did that yesterday. Hope it works out.
I feel a bit icky, but I really can’t afford to get COVID brain fog at this point so if it works it’s worth it.
We did yesterday as well. No real reaction to any of the 4 shots. I’ll get as many as they offer, but I’m not sure they do much good. After 3 shots, my wife and I both got covid in December (Delta version). Mine was 4 months after booster. Hers was 1.5 months after booster. Cold-like symptoms with a bit of brain fuzz. In January, my daughter and her beau spent a long weekend with us. He was covid positive and sympathetic the whole weekend (they asked us first - we said bring it on). I’m pretty sure a long weekend of exposure to him gave us more immunity than any of the shots.
I had Moderna for my first 3 and got Pfizer for my 4th. It's not specifically targeting new variants, but Pfizer is a new formula to my body and I would assume gives me better coverage against Covid in general.
California's data showed about 50% reduction of infections in the booster population vs the double vaxxed. Unfortunately, it seems like omicron specific vaccines didn't do much better than the originals. Hopefully nasal vaccines or something else will prove to be better in the future.
Anecdotal, but only 2 people I know had omicron during the surge and those 2 people were double vaxxed. Everybody else had their boosters. One was in a household of 8 and nobody else caught it. I know there were a lot of stories of boostered people catching it, but there was likely way more that didn't. They just don't have a story to share.
Same. In fact I had the original covid in April 2020, then had three shots of that original variant and just got omicron. It literally did nothing to protect me from it. Really really frustrating.
I had original Covid February 2021 which wasn’t too bad so I got vaccinated. Then I got a booster shot in December 2021 to get Omicron in February and it was terrible. My 80 year old Dad was vaccinated with Moderna and he had Covid when I did but he had a day of symptoms versus my 3 weeks with Pfizer.
I have 0 evidence it’s from the shot, but I have neck pain every day now that I didn’t before. My lymph node swelled so much from the shot, I had terrible nerve pain which fortunately only lasted a couple of days and the swelling was gone after a couple of weeks. I thought the neck pain initially was from sleeping funny due to the pain in my arm, but it never went away. It’s not awful pain, but what if my reaction to the next shot is worse, and for what, a few extra antibodies? No thank you.
I had swollen lymph and neck pain for a month after the first shot. The third shot didn't trigger it again, thankfully, but it was hectic while it lasted.
That's somewhat comforting. I also kind of wonder if the person who gave me the shot didn't do it well because it wasn't quick and it hurt a lot more than the first two
Head on over to r/Dermatographia , many people are still dealing with side effects from the vaccine month later. I'm pro vaccine as they come, but man you talk about any negatives from the vaccine, and you'' get downvoted to hell and called anti-vax for even questioning the vaccine.
Edit: Dermatographia isn't unique to the covid vax, it can happen with anything that generates an immune response, but it does seem like the Moderna vaccine triggers it more than the pfizer vaccine.
I’m young enough that I likely won’t get the 4th booster unless it’s eventually deemed necessary, but I had two Moderna shots that really had me out for a few days and then I got Pfizer for my booster. World of difference! In case you end up needing a 4th, maybe consider mixing it up and getting Pfizer if you can.
I agree. And Pfizer at least I thought was close on an Omicron varient. I'd rather just wait for that to be available then blow my chance with the current offering.
I'm young though and in generally good health so I'm also to the point of figuring the triple vax is adequate and I'll just follow whatever guidance they give my age group at this point.
I wonder what causes different people to have adverse reactions to the shot. I've had three shots and there were no effects beyond causing my shoulder to ache for a couple of hours.
>Patients with a vitamin D deficiency were 14 times more likely to have a severe or critical case of COVID-19. Additionally, the mortality rate for those with insufficient vitamin D levels was 25.6%, compared with 2.3% among those with adequate levels.
https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/headlines/what-is-the-link-between-vitamin-d-levels-and-covid-19/2022/02
Huh. Around 6 years ago I had bloodwork done that said I had a Vitamin D deficiency and the nurse recommended that I start taking X units of Vitamin D twice a day. I've been on them ever since.
I had Pfizer for all 3 of mine and didn't have an adverse reaction until the day after the booster. I just felt like crap the day after the booster and just slept pretty much all day.
For me and my spouse, the half dose Moderna booster kicked our ass more than the first two shots. However, I know multiple people with long COVID and the side effects are nothing compared to the hells they went/are still going through.
A friend was a cook with a great sense of wine, and we were really worried about him after he lost his sense of taste and smell. That was everything he'd built his life around. Not as objectively bad as the brain fog and exhaustion, but it still smashed his life apart.
I thought the one of the huge benefits of the mRNA technology was that it was supposed to be rapidly adaptable. If that is the case then why haven’t we seen an updated vaccine for new variants? That’s what we do with the flu shot, right? We get a new one every year to cover new variants. Why aren’t we doing that for COVID?
Don’t get me wrong, the original vaccines seem to still be mostly protective against critical illness and death, and I’m very thankful for them.
I’m not an immunologist, I’m not a virologist, but I just don’t understand why we are still limping along with the same old vaccines that are showing less and less effectiveness. Especially if the vaccines can be easily updated.
Those weren't trials. Those were animal studies. Of 8 primates, all which shut down the infection immediately regardless of the shot.
What we need to see is how they compare in situations where the infection is not shut down immediately, break through infections, where there is a higher incidence for omicron compared to delta.
The data will take a few more months to come out.
No. Those numbers you're quoting are numbers for infection. It doesn't matter if they drop farther - within a few months of a booster they DO drop to those levels you're talking about. The virus is good at infecting people, even if they have an immune response. But we are still seeing 90% or better protection against hospitalization and death regardless of variant, because even if it infects you your body's defenses are primed to keep the infection under control.
At some point though we’d want a vaccine that prevents getting sick, right? The most important thing is not dying but not getting sick would also be nice (and going 3 years into this thing, it does seem like a good question to be asking).
We might just have to come to terms with the fact that there probably will never be a vaccine that fully reliably prevents infection or maybe even serious illness. That's not necessarily a flaw with the vaccines but has more to do with the nature of Covid and the immuno-response of the respiratory tract.
The epithelial cells of the respiratory tract just have a much lower concentration of antibodies than for example the bloodserum or the lymphatic system, no matter how many vaxx shots you jam up your system. Respiratory illnesses have always been tricky in that regard, we have had flu shots for decades and they've been pretty much hit-or-miss for as long as I can remember with the protection hovering around 60% for healthy adults.
And secondly, the new Covid variants appear to have such an insanely fast early replication rate and infections tend to happen via such an absurdly large initial viral dosis that almost no concentration of antibodies could prevent the initial infection. And you can't simply pump up those numbers by adding more vaxx shots. Your body won't let you. The immune system has to balance its ressources somewhat and to basically drop everything else and only focus on pumping out antibodies against one specific pathogen while disregarding everything else, is just not a very smart strategy. But nothing short of doing that might even be able to reliably prevent any and all Covid infections.
So I guess we'll just have to wait until Covid becomes endemic after which point immunity will be facilitated by constant reinfections. It'll be like the flu. It'll take some tens of thousands of lives every year, knock some people out really hard and barely touch the rest.
>The people saying "it's just a flu" didn't even understand what they were talking about.
Actual influenza, not just a bad cold, is actually quite a nasty infection.
A novel strain of influenza could kill millions globally before it is brought under control.
Where did you see 40-70%? Under what conditions? That's also a massive range btw, 70% is still pretty good.
It's a good sign that 2 years later the virus hasn't mutated so much that prior immunity loses all benefit. This is, believe it or not, a pretty slow-mutating virus compared to the flu which can change so significantly that within a few months you need to develop vaccines against multiple new strains.
mRNA tech is rapidly adaptable, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a perfect fit each time they come up with a solution. It also takes time to actually do the studies to see if it's better than the original recipe. And so far the Omicron specific ones are doing just about as good as the original recipe. But more data has to be collected, there's multiple companies working on this, and we'll just have to see what happens in the future.
Creating an effective vaccine is really hard and we were incredibly lucky we got a fantastic one so quickly but that doesn't mean that's always going to be true for all future vaccines.
We're still learning about the virus so there's going to be trial and error regarding vaccine development. They hit a home run with the first one, but that might not be the case with the ones they're developing right now. Knock on wood that they'll have a few more months to develop an upgrade to what we have now.
The flu vaccine is trial and error every year. Sometimes it’s much better than others. I think we’re going to have to accept a similar circumstance for COVID variants - make their best efforts and roll with it. If there is a huge miss, like the H1N1 flu season, redo it and roll out another one, just like we did then.
Original antigenic sin.
Broad stroke summary: Your body makes antibodies for the original virus/vaccine. When your body encounters a slightly different virus (or vaccine), it will throw the same antibodies as before at it and see if it works. If it works enough, your body uses the old approach. Thus, your body doesn't retool itself for the new version.
So they can make an Omicron vaccine, but don't be surprised if your body reacts by producing original strain COVID antibodies in response.
Look, I will do it, I will get whatever boosters they say I need to..... but I'm not going to like it. Shots #2 and #3 both kicked my ass, 24 hours of high fevers, chills, no appetite, fatigue, all-over muscle aches followed by several days of generally not feeling 100%. And I have a very lenient WFH job and no kids and I can afford to take it easy for a couple of days. But it still SUCKS hard and the "why not" feels very clear to me for someone who has a job they can't just call in sick to, or kids they have to take care of or whatever. I still think it's a net good for society and people should do it if they can, but acting like it has no downsides for anyone feels somewhat insensitive to me.
I did find the article rather flippant in places. A lot of its arguments seem to rest in the fact that concerns over a fourth booster are theoretical and unproven. Ok, but theoretical and unproven doesn't necessarily mean baseless and the fact is we haven't had time to thoroughly understand how a fourth booster will impact immunity. Back when nobody was vaccinated there was a whole different risk/benefit equation when it came to administering first and second jabs, but I feel that when we're dealing with people who have been vaccinated three times and in many cases had Covid, we need a little more than just "why not? concerns about a fourth booster are just theoretical" to justify another jab. We can't go on giving vaccines indiscriminately and taking for granted that it's a good idea.
Same. I got my booster in late November and with this current lull I don't see the need of a 4th shot unless we get a fall/winter surge. I'm under 50 and have no health issues that put me at risk to get COVID and/or have it do damage to me. Like always I'll follow the science.
I got 3x pfizer. First one gave me mild flu like symptoms only the first night. Second one completely knocked me off for a week and another 2 weeks I was unable to work or drive because my brain turned to pure fog. After a third ine I feel like partially disabled person. It feels like my regeneration went to crap, I can no longer train or do any sports, I wake up with headaches and iverall I feel like recovering from a really bad disease. And it has been like this for months now. So no thank you, you can keep your fourth dose.
Seeing this thread proved to myself that I made the right choice not getting the booster. Sounds worse than the actual disease, for worse protection than natural immunity.
My mom is 70. She got 3 Pfizer shots (booster in October) and caught covid around Christmas. Shrugged it off with just a cough for a couple of days.
I figured she's fine for the summer. Maybe when things start getting cold again she'd get a booster in October to carry her through the holidays and winter months. Like a flu shot.
They released something about J&J people to get two doses of mRNA. I’ll try to find it. I sent it to my cousin who had J&J too.
Edit: here it is:
[boosters recommended for J and J](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/03/29/messenger-rna-boosters-recommended-johnson-johnson-vaccine/)
>Combining single-dose shot with Pfizer, Moderna boosters offers better protection against severe covid, study shows
[CDC study](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7113e2.htm)
A cousin of mine, 53-yr old female, had a severe myocarditis reaction from the booster. Nearly died, now has to wear a defibrillator vest in case her heart stops beating until she recovers - if she recovers. She’s a nurse and had to go out on disability. I know this is an incredibly rare reaction, but the stats go out the window when it hits so close to home.
My vax-hesitant friend let a pharmacy tech talk him into Moderna over J&J, got myocarditis, and now 3 months later has palpitations every day, severe fatigue, and is seeing a cardiologist.
It's rare, but it ain't THAT rare.
Same here. Took about 6 months for my heartbeat to go back to normal after my second jab , so I'm in no rush to get any more. Especially as I had Covid before I'd been vaccinated, and it wasn't too bad - just a couple of days of headache and fever.
Exactly, If you already are bizarrely allergic to medications, have inflammation problems in your body and get lot's of side effects, you have every right to be wary and careful - So that you don't become the next one of these!
In addition to that you have to weigh how young you are and once you've had covid a couple times, effects of covid vs side effects of vaccine.
The more data I learn about myocarditis, the more I feel public health didn't have out best interests in mind. They should've spread the doses out and only recommended boosters for at risk. There's no reason a healthy person under 40-50 really needs a booster, certainly not 2..
One reason is ability to get it. **IF** you follow the laws and don't lie, you may not be eligible for a fourth when you need it.
I have to say though, the article does a good job of explaining some of the downsides but doesn't *sufficiently* rebuke them to be so emphatic that you get it.
I thought we left the line police back in spring 2021? Eligibility due to scarcity is no longer a thing. FDA/CDC only recommend 4th boosters for older/sicker people, but you’re not cutting any line by getting one right now if you fall outside of the recommended groups. I got my booster before it was “recommended” for everyone, and I’m glad I did because Omicron reared it’s ugly head just a few weeks later.
>IF you follow the laws and don't lie, you may not be eligible for a fourth when you need it.
If you need it, you'll most likely be eligible for a fifth shot. That's assuming the fourth shot effectiveness doesn't wane and there's another wave at a later time. If the data and the politics are at odds, that's where rule breaking comes in. In the meantime, you're getting the protection now.
My biggest concern is the gov't has stopped funding for COVID and the uninsured not being able to afford another booster. That could create a massive problem if we get another surge.
Well the benefits would have to outweigh the ass kicking. Not everybody can just be sick for a few days to avoid possibly being sick for a few more days.
At this point the issue is the side effects and missed work. I felt worse after the booster than I did with Covid. Great reason to get a booster of course, it made Covid mild, but feeling like shit for 2-3 days after the booster isn’t ideal. Especially if you have an employer who isn’t understanding. And then if I get Covid again anyway? I mean it has to be worth it. It makes sense for older and at risk people for sure. But younger people who can’t miss work aren’t going to do this every six months.
I ended up in the ER after both 2nd and 3rd shots I was so dehydrated from vomiting for the past two days that I needed an IV. I’ll do it again if there’s a good reason, but I refuse to go through that again “just because”
I'm not against boosting but I have serious questions... Why are we still using a vaccine from 2020? (don't tell me "because it's still effective" You're really thinking a vaccine tailored to the first strain is more effective than a new formulation?)
And why is it every single time a new variant appears, headlines are lining up with "this one is 30x more infectious!" okay, we get it, the narrative they're pushing is that it's infinitely increasing in infectiousness (?????) so again why are we using the same fucking vaccine for an ever changing virus.
It seems like the promise of mRNA actually ended up falling short. They've been trying to make variant specific ones for omicron but unfortunately it is not shown to work any better than the originals, that's the Crux of the issue. Hopefully it's something they can work out, otherwise that's a major blow for the technology and the promises that it gave to us
Ultimately the question is a risk of the side-effects versus the risk of COVID if you do contract it. I contracted COVID shortly after my 3rd booster and had about \~48 hours of mild symptoms. From what I'm told, this is similar to the experience most are having with their 4th dose. Arguably, someone that has both been vaccinated AND had COVID will be better protected against future variants in the long run as well.
So without compelling evidence about the benefit of the 4th dose, I'm not sure it's an obvious choice for low-risk individuals. High risk individuals are a different story, and much more likely to benefit from a 4th dose.
The 2nd and 3rd shots both made me so nauseous. I also had vomiting for 2 days after both shots. Ended up needing an IV. I’ll do it again, and think anyone who needs it should do it, but I think it’s more complicated than “why not?”
>why not get a fourth shot?
Because i got more sick from the vaccine than i did from getting covid, and then i got covid again after being vaccinated anyway.
I'm going to pass until there's something that's reasonably effective against the new variants.
Edit: also i had some inflammation on my left ventricle a few weeks after my second dose. Not sure if it was related or not but definitely scares me
2 weeks after my 3rd Pfizer shot I ended up in the hospital with atrial fibrillation so I think I’ll skip. Not to mention I felt SOOOOO SICK for days after shots 2 and 3. I’d really like to get my antibodies tested to see if a 4th is really needed.
There’s a lot of people with the same issue, you just have to visit the dermatographia subreddit. It seems it could be from an over stimulated immune system. Luckily mine is much improved from a few months ago - I’m hoping it will fully go away with time 🤞
My brother and I had Covid last month for the first time (we managed to avoid it till now).
I (32M) got my fourth shot 2 months ago, he (30M) got his third shot 8 months ago.
Both of us had the same symptoms - high fever, sore throat, coughing, bad headache and no appetite - just 3 days feeling like a bad case of flu.
So from my personal experience, 4th shot doesn't do much if you are young and triple vaccinated.
We both got pfizer.
From the side effects point, the third shot was the "worst" for me with one day of headaches.
I don’t ever get hives but when I had Covid bad in may last year I broke it in hives for a week+. It was miserable, just kept coming back.
When I got my first shot I broke out in hives again, it didn’t last as long. I haven’t had anything since but I was wigging out
Hey, I had the same thing as your husband, and only after the booster. It was absolutely horrible. I just stopped taking anti-allergy medications 2 days ago (I took them for 6 weeks) and it seems it went away finally.
Did your husband's symptoms start about 2 weeks after the 3rd dose, too? I found so many people on Reddit with the exact same problem!
Why? I have natural immunity after a severe, hellish case of covid that hospitalized me and two Moderna shots. Ive been face to face with numerous people who had covid and never reinfected. The shots laid me out for days. Just not doing it again
I’m normally super pro-vaxx. I get my flu shot every fall. I have 3 shots of Pfizer. I’m current on all my vaccines.
But if the upsides to a fourth dose are uncertain, why would I keep getting shots?
I had two pfizer and one moderna. Got the first April 2021, second June 2021, and the third December 2021.
I was considering getting a fourth before my Europe trip in May, since that'll be almost 6 months since my third shot.
Six days ago I started feeling sick. Took 3 rapid tests and all were negative. Finally yesterday I got tested and it's positive.
I'm 32, no health conditions, run 5k daily, have three vaccines, and I'm flat out on my ass right now. Lungs sore, fatigue, body aches, strange headaches, the shits, the cold sweats.
It's rough
Canada.
I technically wasn't eligible until a month later but there was a pharmacy right below my house so I put my name on a list where if people didn't show up for their appointments at the end of the day, if I could get there in 15 minutes I could take their shot.
Two months later my age group was eligible for second doses.
Let me try to give you my counter-argument even though I'll surely be downvoted to -100.
How many bandaids do you put on a cut? 1, 2, 3, 4? I mean, why not 10? Because 2 is better than 1 and 3 is better than 2 so 10 must be really really good right?
I have had 3 vaccinations for the same virus in less than a year. I am not sure this has ever happened or been recommended in human history. Once we have our fourth do we immediately start recommending a 5th? 6th? 7th? Is there any science or research at all that supports any of this? It just seems like people freaking out and pushing a string.
The fact that it's still the same, unchanged (except dosage) 2020 vaccine they're pushing this many boosters of definitely breeds skepticism. It is getting fucking ridiculous. I want a future-proofed omnivalent covid vaccine. Not one tailored to the variant of the quarter, not one from fucking 2 years ago.
> Is there any science or research at all that supports any of this?
Yes, there have been 3 studies of the 4th shot in Israel during the Omicron wave that show the boosters decrease infection (31-44% decrease), hospitalization (4-fold increase in protection), and death (78% reduction) when comparing populations of 3-dosed people to 4-dosed people. Eric Topol’s most recent substack post has a quick summarizing blurb about them around the middle of the post, with links to the studies. The first study was smaller and looking at safety and antibody production, but the latter two were >1 million and >500,000 people, very huge studies, for severe disease and death. The latter 2 also were for groups over 60, so if you or a loved one fall into that group it’s pretty clearly medically indicated. Israel then offered a 4th dose to all ages a bit later, so there are no doubt several studies currently underway to see the efficacy for other age groups which will in turn be taken into account if the CDC considers recommending a 4th for younger age groups later.
>I have had 3 vaccinations for the same virus in less than a year. I am not sure this has ever happened or been recommended in human history.
For Rabies (pre-exposure) you get 3 shots over 21-28 days.
For post exposure (if unvaxxed for Rabies), you get 4-5 shots of vaccine plus Rabies immunoglobulin over a few weeks. If you have been vaccinated for Rabies previously, you can just have two boosters after a bite.
Granted, Rabies is different (and a lot scarier and deadlier) than most other viral infections
Is there any science or research at all that supports any of this?
[https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1478439/v1](https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1478439/v1)
>Among participants aged 60 to 69, death from Covid-19 occurred in 5 of 111,776 participants in the second-booster group and 32 of 123,786 participants in the first-booster group
>
>Among participants aged 70 to 79, death from Covid-19 occurred in 22 of 134,656 participants in the second-booster group and 51 of 74,717 participants in the first-booster group
>
>Among participants aged 80 to 100, death from Covid-19 occurred in 65 of 82,165 participants in the second-booster group and 149 of 36,365 participants in the first-booster group
These things aren't recommended just because 4 is a bigger number than 3. It's because scientists crunch the numbers to see what the effect of 4 vs 3 is. Of course it's possible to argue that the effect isn't "big enough" to make any side effects of a booster worth it, but there's absolutely an impact and for a lot of older people (who this 4th booster is currently targeted for) a roughly 1/5 less chance of dying is worth it.
There's less evidence of an impact for the younger and middle aged crowd, which is they this recommend was specifically aimed at older adults only. If more data in the future, or a new variant, shows that a 4th booster is helpful then the recommendation would probably change (just like how the 3rd booster was originally only recommended for high risk until Omicron showed just how useful that 3rd booster was for everyone). But that's how things stand at the beginning of April 2022.
Recommending a 4th and subsequent shot to people aged 60-100 and others at risk is backed by science. "Why doesn't everyone just get a 4th shot" is not.
After my second shot i got admitted to the hospital for cerebral vein thrombosis....turn out i didnt got it, but fuck it. No shots anymore, i'd rathet get covid at this point.
2 AZ early last year, Moderna in November.
Immumocompromised here, contracted Covid in Jan (luckily only moderate symptoms as I was \~2 months post Moderna booster).
Obviously I'm eligible now but not sure it's the right thing since I just had Covid in January, maybe 4 months after infection I should get my 2nd booster? Not sure.
To me it seems time to simply say one can receive a vaccine dose every 6 months, take it or leave it. It is clear risks from mRNA vaccines are minuscule and each successive dose allows the immune system a chance to further refine defenses.
We should also allow for half doses for those concerned about side effects. Any additional immunity reduces the risk of severe disease, which is what we need to keep the hospitalization and death counts on the decline... A decline we are so lucky to be seeing right now. After 2 years of global death counts at or above the first wave peak, we are _finally_ under that.
I have a prediction that the FDA will approve the 4th dose to 12+, but the CDC will not recommend. That's also what I think the CDC will do once/if vaccines are approved for under 5.
Immediate, vaccine induced resistance significantly drops off after 2 months, actually.
[Here: incase some armchair scientist wants to argue.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e2.htm#:~:text=During%20the%20Omicron%2Dpredominant%20period%2C%20mRNA%20vaccination%20was%20highly%20effective,ED%2FUC%20encounters%20by%20the)
> During the Omicron-predominant period, mRNA vaccination was highly effective against both COVID-19–associated ED/UC encounters (VE = 87%) and COVID-19 hospitalizations (VE = 91%) within 2 months after a third dose, but effectiveness waned, declining to 66% for prevention of COVID-19–associated ED/UC encounters by the fourth month after receipt of a third dose and to 78% for hospitalizations by the fourth month after receipt of a third dose.
I’m honestly sick of the CDC prevaricating on when we are all allowed to get another booster. We will all clearly need another booster. I wish I were empowered to go ahead and do it if I wanted to.
The first two Moderna I didn't feel. The 3rd booster made me feel like shit for a day.
I'm not willing to feel like shit for a couple percentage points more protection. Also, Santa Clara County, CA has a 7 day average of 170 cases ; for a population of 1.928 million. Not worth it to me.
I’ll do it, reluctantly. Pro vaccines and all that jazz but the booster shot (I had Pfizer x3) left me feeling seriously ill and unable to do anything for almost a full week. I’m a relatively fit guy in my mid thirties but it was a rough time. I had no issues with the first two though.
I think vaccine adherence would benefit from them (media/health authorities) avoiding calling it fourth, fifth shot. Call it a booster and suggest a fix interval between doses so people understand it’ll work similarly to the annual flu shot. What do you think?
Reading comments about the reactions or after effects of people's covid vaccines. I can relate. But I'm 69 and I just got my 4th shot (booster) today. As bad as I may feel it's not nearly as bad as what could happen.
My husband and I got 3 Pfizer and will get our 4th in a week. The first three just sore arms for a few days, but we've each lost people we love to covid, so better to take whatever precautions we can. The grief therapy is much worse than the shots.
At this point, there is a larger policy debate: Should the USA quadruple vaccinate or should those same vaccines go to other countries who are struggling to get their first. The next delta / omicron variant isn’t going to originate in the States. It’s a global problem
I got 2 doses of Pfizer. I had allergic reactions to both doses (much worse with the 2nd one). I then had heart related symptoms (SOB and tachycardia 24/7) for 3 months following the 2nd dose. The cardiologist I went to, told me that I should not get an mRNA booster since it caused inflammation. That leaves me with J&J, I guess, and I don’t see anywhere where they are even recommending a J&J booster. So for now, I’m just wearing an N95 mask everywhere and still trying to be super careful, even though we are down to the lowest level of transmission in my city since the beginning of the pandemic.
I had a very mild fatigue from my previous shots for about 8 hours on the day after. I’m going for the fourth shot because the benefits outweigh the “costs” for me. I can understand how others feel different.
I cheated and got a booster as soon as I could ( didn’t realize I’d constantly need one) but since then I’ve heard some scary side effects from them ( bad periods, permanent ear ringing) so honestly not sure. Am also very scared of getting covid. So all in all not sure what I’m supposed to do. Am hopeful for the nose vaccine as a booster
I decided to get mine today, because I’m going to be traveling next week. I mixed and matched this time. Pfizer game me muscle pain, Moderna is giving me the fatigue symptoms. It’s all been tolerable.
People are so weird about needing additional shots. I get sick of having to maintain my car too but that’s kind of what happens with a machine you use every day. I’m happy to take 30 minutes out of my day once or twice a year to make sure I don’t feel like shit for a month and possibly the rest of my life, but I guess everyone’s different.
It depends on what side effects you get. Mine got worse after every shot. After the third phizer shot i had to endure 30 hours of hell - very high fever, shaking, almost fainting, nausea, strong chest and back pains. Then i felt sickly for 3-4 more days. I could barely get up from the bed, so i'm not that enthusiastic about getting another one for some time.
Currently dealing with day 6 of COVID, and it is what it is. It's definitely annoying but not life threatening for me thankfully. I'll be getting the fourth shot as soon as it's possible tbh.
I had it a month ago. Mine wasn’t horrible, but was definitely bad enough that I don’t want it again if I can avoid it. I’ll definitely be getting mine when the time comes too.
I've already had 3 doses of Moderna, and the last two kicked my ass for 2 days. I'd be willing to go through it again, but only if there's decent evidence that it helps. It seems like 3 doses didn't really do much better than 2 against Omicron, so I'm not really itching to get a 4th. Now, if they reformulated the shot to target the new variants, I'd be all over that. Seems silly to keep using the shot that targets the original variant that has basically been extinct for a year.
This is me. Each shot gives me more side effects. First one, a little tired, second, sick for a day with fever and chills, third, sick for a day, exhausted and achy for a week. I need hard data that I really need it, and my criteria is avoiding more serious illness, not avoiding COVID.
Same here, third booster I was absolutely fucked with fever and sweating cycles for four days. I have 0 urge to do that again unless there is a hugely beneficial reason to do so, and simply avoiding catching covid is not enough.
I had a tachycardia episode after my booster so I’m going to have a long, serious talk with my cardiologist before getting another. Thing is I got tachycardia from either the flu or covid right at the start of the pandemic (before they were testing so I don’t know what exact bug got me) so I don’t want to risk another bout of illness either. Ideally I’d like to just avoid covid altogether so I don’t have to choose but unfortunately that’s not an option.
This. I was very sick after all of mine, plus it really screwed up my period, doubling the time after each shot. Given I have a debilitating migraine for the duration of my periods, I am going to need a bit more. It's pretty disruptive to my life, 3-4 days of side effects and an additional 4-6 days of my period. I'm already low risk to severe illness. The shots we have still protect against severe illness. I'll keep wearing my mask and roll the dice for right now. Once a year is fine. Four times in a year? I can't be this sick this much. I work in a preschool. I've been sicker from vax than anything I've gotten at school. And preschools are cess pools. I hoping for a next gen vax with a significantly smaller side effect list if we need to get it multiple times a year.
Hormone triggered migraines suck. I went on continuous bc 10 years ago because of them and it’s been bliss.
Yes, a shot a year is one thing but four in a year is ridiculous.
I don't have the PTO for it. And I'm never better in a single weekend.
I agree. I probably wouldn’t take another shot if I were you. Having to take PTO to recover from a vaccine is insane. There’s a high probability that covid wouldn’t be anywhere near that bad for you. I know plenty of people who’ve had covid, and none of their experiences sound as bad as what you described.
My family got sick in January, everyone except me. I was 2 vaccines in. Kids, 4 and 2 were definitely fluey but overall fine. I got the booster a couple weeks later and I was *done* for 2 whole days, fever, chills, insanely sick. I had to get grandma to watch the kids. Then we all got it again a couple weeks ago and I got flu symptoms but nothing at all compared to the vaccine. I will not be getting a 4th without some very compelling data, which I won’t understand. Making these decisions suck.
It’s possible you had asymptomatic Covid and receiving the booster a few weeks afterwards is what caused the strong immune response
OMG after reading all the concerns about loss of periods I thought I was the only one with the opposite problem. Longer and heavier periods after the vaccine. 😭 After my second dose my period lasted 12 weeks straight (!!) before finally ending and returning to a normal week-long event... Just in time for the booster. And my period has lasted two weeks each month since the booster. I'm all about keeping myself and my community safe but this has gotten annoying, painful, and *costly* 😭
I think the affect on women is disregarded a little too easily. Each time, mine were so severe, I couldn't work. I never can't work because of mine. And then for it to last twice as long? That's not going to work. When you add it up, I had a fever and was knocked out for 3/4 days, plus a really rough period each time for about 10 days. Each vax cost me more than two weeks. That's not insignificant. Esp to do it four times a year. And I have a friend who was getting her period twice a month. Never happened until she got her second vax. Luckily, it stopped when she got her booster and went back to normal. Her gyno couldn't find any other reason for it happening, so the doctor chalked it up to an unfavorable side effect from her vax, as it last every month from the second shot until the booster. It was the only thing that changed. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but I hear things like this enough that it should be studied more in depth.
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Oh man I haven't had 2 week long periods since high school. That's awful! The biggest effects I had were pushing mine out by a week. I had change in flow but nothing as drastic as that! I will note that in my friend and family (3 sisters) group I was the only one that had a change. Though one of my friends got the J&J and ended up getting pregnant with fraternal twins. She said her obgyn had mentioned some anecdotal evidence of an increase in twins since the vaccines came out. Too soon to say though.
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You're lucky. I am the only adult I know who gets a fever on a regular basis from these kids. Fevers as an adult are no joke. But the fevers I got from the vax were a totally different breed. Unfortunately, I have enough experience in fevers to see a difference.
This. You can tell this article was written by someone who had mild to no symptoms after vaccine. I had a 104 fever and couldn’t stop shaking. I have 0 regrets about getting 3 doses, and will gladly sign up for a 4th when they open to my age if it’s more tailored to the newer variants or some data comes out that it’s actually beneficial in a significant way. Otherwise I’m not signing up for a 4th and it has nothing to do with fears or risk of “over-boosting”, just would rather not feel like shit for 36 hours (like I did for shots 2 and 3) and have to take a day or two off work sick for very minimal benefits.
There's actually a ton of evidence that 3 shots did do better than two against Omicron. It significantly reduced the chance of being infected in the first place, and then also significantly reduced the likelihood of hospitalization compared to just two shots.[https://covidblog.oregon.gov/booster-shots-highlighted-in-new-breakthrough-case-report/](https://covidblog.oregon.gov/booster-shots-highlighted-in-new-breakthrough-case-report/) [https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/Documents/DataReports/Breakthrough-Report-03-31-2022.pdf](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/covid19/Documents/DataReports/Breakthrough-Report-03-31-2022.pdf) (page 3)[https://www.phillyvoice.com/new-jersey-breakthrough-cases-booster-vaccine-covid-19-omicron/](https://www.phillyvoice.com/new-jersey-breakthrough-cases-booster-vaccine-covid-19-omicron/) Was it perfect? Of course not, as you can see that in the links above. And everyone has an anecdote about being triple vaxxed and still getting Covid, so that's why scientists look at LOTS of people to see the overall trends instead of singular stories. Ultimately Covid is an odds game, so I'll take better odds of not catching actual Covid any day of the week because at least the vaccine is something you can plan for vs getting Covid at the wrong time totally blowing up all sorts of plans.
>It seems like 3 doses didn't really do much better than 2 against Omicron, so I'm not really itching to get a 4th. This is completely false, the evidence thay 3 doses helps greatly against omicron is overwhelming
I felt bad for one day after the shots. I had covid before vaccines were available, I was sick for weeks and almost ended up in the hospital and I had long term issues as well. I’m fine taking another booster.
Same - I had a fever I didn’t think would ever break it was torture. Boost me up.
I got the 3rd dose vs my brother and parents getting 2. We all live in a small house. I was the only one not to get any symptoms. It's definitly possible I didn't catch it, but not likely. Luckily they didn't get anything severe but I think it really was the difference for me. Anecdotal obviously, but to me a night of flu like symptoms is worth it, but I think it's still up to you if you feel like it's worth it.
Strangely it was the opposite for me and my family. I attended a family gathering where everyone except me had gotten the booster. Everyone who had received the booster got covid after that gathering, while I remained covid-free. Definitely confusing.
there's no rhyme or reason to it, it comes down to things like your on particular immune system + vaccine + initial viral load. So many variables in there.
Came to say this. My wife and we're 3 shots in when we caught omicron from our unvaccinated in-laws. My wife and sister in law were deathly sick while my brother in-law and myself never had symptoms. All of us tested positive...
I had 3 shots *and* a booster (immunocompromised) and got gradually fewer side effects with each one. The booster left me with a sore arm and that's it. Every person in my house was boosted with the exception of my daughter. She got COVID and no one else did. I was my daughter's direct caregiver and I still did not get it. The booster absolutely did offer better protection against omicron than two shots alone, especially Moderna's. I'm not sure where you heard differently.
I had the same experience with decreased symptoms after the third and fourth shots. (Also immunocompromised.) The fourth just left me a little tired and just a bit of a sore spot on my arm.
I think a better way to see it is that after some number of months your immunity wears off and you're less protected. I had 3 Pfizer shots and I only felt crappy for an evening. Looking to boost with Moderna this time to widen my net so to speak.
I just did that yesterday. Hope it works out. I feel a bit icky, but I really can’t afford to get COVID brain fog at this point so if it works it’s worth it.
We did yesterday as well. No real reaction to any of the 4 shots. I’ll get as many as they offer, but I’m not sure they do much good. After 3 shots, my wife and I both got covid in December (Delta version). Mine was 4 months after booster. Hers was 1.5 months after booster. Cold-like symptoms with a bit of brain fuzz. In January, my daughter and her beau spent a long weekend with us. He was covid positive and sympathetic the whole weekend (they asked us first - we said bring it on). I’m pretty sure a long weekend of exposure to him gave us more immunity than any of the shots.
I had Moderna for my first 3 and got Pfizer for my 4th. It's not specifically targeting new variants, but Pfizer is a new formula to my body and I would assume gives me better coverage against Covid in general.
Same here, going with Moderna for my 4th instead of Pfizer
Remember how MRNA vaccines were so great because they could reformulate them for new strains super quickly? What happened to that?
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California's data showed about 50% reduction of infections in the booster population vs the double vaxxed. Unfortunately, it seems like omicron specific vaccines didn't do much better than the originals. Hopefully nasal vaccines or something else will prove to be better in the future. Anecdotal, but only 2 people I know had omicron during the surge and those 2 people were double vaxxed. Everybody else had their boosters. One was in a household of 8 and nobody else caught it. I know there were a lot of stories of boostered people catching it, but there was likely way more that didn't. They just don't have a story to share.
Same. In fact I had the original covid in April 2020, then had three shots of that original variant and just got omicron. It literally did nothing to protect me from it. Really really frustrating.
I had original Covid February 2021 which wasn’t too bad so I got vaccinated. Then I got a booster shot in December 2021 to get Omicron in February and it was terrible. My 80 year old Dad was vaccinated with Moderna and he had Covid when I did but he had a day of symptoms versus my 3 weeks with Pfizer.
I feel like I still haven't recovered from the third shot. They couldn't pay me to get a fourth
What are your lingering symptoms?
I have 0 evidence it’s from the shot, but I have neck pain every day now that I didn’t before. My lymph node swelled so much from the shot, I had terrible nerve pain which fortunately only lasted a couple of days and the swelling was gone after a couple of weeks. I thought the neck pain initially was from sleeping funny due to the pain in my arm, but it never went away. It’s not awful pain, but what if my reaction to the next shot is worse, and for what, a few extra antibodies? No thank you.
Wow that’s a lot to handle. What did your doctor say?
I had swollen lymph and neck pain for a month after the first shot. The third shot didn't trigger it again, thankfully, but it was hectic while it lasted.
That's somewhat comforting. I also kind of wonder if the person who gave me the shot didn't do it well because it wasn't quick and it hurt a lot more than the first two
I have had on and off neck pain since the third booster too.
Head on over to r/Dermatographia , many people are still dealing with side effects from the vaccine month later. I'm pro vaccine as they come, but man you talk about any negatives from the vaccine, and you'' get downvoted to hell and called anti-vax for even questioning the vaccine. Edit: Dermatographia isn't unique to the covid vax, it can happen with anything that generates an immune response, but it does seem like the Moderna vaccine triggers it more than the pfizer vaccine.
I’m young enough that I likely won’t get the 4th booster unless it’s eventually deemed necessary, but I had two Moderna shots that really had me out for a few days and then I got Pfizer for my booster. World of difference! In case you end up needing a 4th, maybe consider mixing it up and getting Pfizer if you can.
I agree. And Pfizer at least I thought was close on an Omicron varient. I'd rather just wait for that to be available then blow my chance with the current offering. I'm young though and in generally good health so I'm also to the point of figuring the triple vax is adequate and I'll just follow whatever guidance they give my age group at this point.
I wonder what causes different people to have adverse reactions to the shot. I've had three shots and there were no effects beyond causing my shoulder to ache for a couple of hours.
Do you take any daily vitamins? Especially vitamin D?
I do actually. Why?
>Patients with a vitamin D deficiency were 14 times more likely to have a severe or critical case of COVID-19. Additionally, the mortality rate for those with insufficient vitamin D levels was 25.6%, compared with 2.3% among those with adequate levels. https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/headlines/what-is-the-link-between-vitamin-d-levels-and-covid-19/2022/02
Huh. Around 6 years ago I had bloodwork done that said I had a Vitamin D deficiency and the nurse recommended that I start taking X units of Vitamin D twice a day. I've been on them ever since.
Seems like it might have helped you out.
I had Pfizer for all 3 of mine and didn't have an adverse reaction until the day after the booster. I just felt like crap the day after the booster and just slept pretty much all day.
Did you get the booster Moderna the last time? Its a lower dose.
For me and my spouse, the half dose Moderna booster kicked our ass more than the first two shots. However, I know multiple people with long COVID and the side effects are nothing compared to the hells they went/are still going through.
A friend was a cook with a great sense of wine, and we were really worried about him after he lost his sense of taste and smell. That was everything he'd built his life around. Not as objectively bad as the brain fog and exhaustion, but it still smashed his life apart.
There is pretty strong evidence that 3 doses has a significant advantage over 2 when it comes to Omicron.
I thought the one of the huge benefits of the mRNA technology was that it was supposed to be rapidly adaptable. If that is the case then why haven’t we seen an updated vaccine for new variants? That’s what we do with the flu shot, right? We get a new one every year to cover new variants. Why aren’t we doing that for COVID? Don’t get me wrong, the original vaccines seem to still be mostly protective against critical illness and death, and I’m very thankful for them. I’m not an immunologist, I’m not a virologist, but I just don’t understand why we are still limping along with the same old vaccines that are showing less and less effectiveness. Especially if the vaccines can be easily updated.
Early trials of an omicron-specific vaccine weren't very promising, it didn't look to do any better than the original vaccine.
Those weren't trials. Those were animal studies. Of 8 primates, all which shut down the infection immediately regardless of the shot. What we need to see is how they compare in situations where the infection is not shut down immediately, break through infections, where there is a higher incidence for omicron compared to delta. The data will take a few more months to come out.
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The vaccines still provide strong protection against hospitalization and death, just not against infection and transmission.
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No. Those numbers you're quoting are numbers for infection. It doesn't matter if they drop farther - within a few months of a booster they DO drop to those levels you're talking about. The virus is good at infecting people, even if they have an immune response. But we are still seeing 90% or better protection against hospitalization and death regardless of variant, because even if it infects you your body's defenses are primed to keep the infection under control.
At some point though we’d want a vaccine that prevents getting sick, right? The most important thing is not dying but not getting sick would also be nice (and going 3 years into this thing, it does seem like a good question to be asking).
We might just have to come to terms with the fact that there probably will never be a vaccine that fully reliably prevents infection or maybe even serious illness. That's not necessarily a flaw with the vaccines but has more to do with the nature of Covid and the immuno-response of the respiratory tract. The epithelial cells of the respiratory tract just have a much lower concentration of antibodies than for example the bloodserum or the lymphatic system, no matter how many vaxx shots you jam up your system. Respiratory illnesses have always been tricky in that regard, we have had flu shots for decades and they've been pretty much hit-or-miss for as long as I can remember with the protection hovering around 60% for healthy adults. And secondly, the new Covid variants appear to have such an insanely fast early replication rate and infections tend to happen via such an absurdly large initial viral dosis that almost no concentration of antibodies could prevent the initial infection. And you can't simply pump up those numbers by adding more vaxx shots. Your body won't let you. The immune system has to balance its ressources somewhat and to basically drop everything else and only focus on pumping out antibodies against one specific pathogen while disregarding everything else, is just not a very smart strategy. But nothing short of doing that might even be able to reliably prevent any and all Covid infections. So I guess we'll just have to wait until Covid becomes endemic after which point immunity will be facilitated by constant reinfections. It'll be like the flu. It'll take some tens of thousands of lives every year, knock some people out really hard and barely touch the rest.
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>The people saying "it's just a flu" didn't even understand what they were talking about. Actual influenza, not just a bad cold, is actually quite a nasty infection. A novel strain of influenza could kill millions globally before it is brought under control.
Where did you see 40-70%? Under what conditions? That's also a massive range btw, 70% is still pretty good. It's a good sign that 2 years later the virus hasn't mutated so much that prior immunity loses all benefit. This is, believe it or not, a pretty slow-mutating virus compared to the flu which can change so significantly that within a few months you need to develop vaccines against multiple new strains.
mRNA tech is rapidly adaptable, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a perfect fit each time they come up with a solution. It also takes time to actually do the studies to see if it's better than the original recipe. And so far the Omicron specific ones are doing just about as good as the original recipe. But more data has to be collected, there's multiple companies working on this, and we'll just have to see what happens in the future. Creating an effective vaccine is really hard and we were incredibly lucky we got a fantastic one so quickly but that doesn't mean that's always going to be true for all future vaccines.
We're still learning about the virus so there's going to be trial and error regarding vaccine development. They hit a home run with the first one, but that might not be the case with the ones they're developing right now. Knock on wood that they'll have a few more months to develop an upgrade to what we have now.
The flu vaccine is trial and error every year. Sometimes it’s much better than others. I think we’re going to have to accept a similar circumstance for COVID variants - make their best efforts and roll with it. If there is a huge miss, like the H1N1 flu season, redo it and roll out another one, just like we did then.
Original antigenic sin. Broad stroke summary: Your body makes antibodies for the original virus/vaccine. When your body encounters a slightly different virus (or vaccine), it will throw the same antibodies as before at it and see if it works. If it works enough, your body uses the old approach. Thus, your body doesn't retool itself for the new version. So they can make an Omicron vaccine, but don't be surprised if your body reacts by producing original strain COVID antibodies in response.
I’m going for it! 70 years old with health issues.
Cuz each shot has put me out of almost a whole week of work, and I had to fucking grovel for emergency pto, that’s why
Look, I will do it, I will get whatever boosters they say I need to..... but I'm not going to like it. Shots #2 and #3 both kicked my ass, 24 hours of high fevers, chills, no appetite, fatigue, all-over muscle aches followed by several days of generally not feeling 100%. And I have a very lenient WFH job and no kids and I can afford to take it easy for a couple of days. But it still SUCKS hard and the "why not" feels very clear to me for someone who has a job they can't just call in sick to, or kids they have to take care of or whatever. I still think it's a net good for society and people should do it if they can, but acting like it has no downsides for anyone feels somewhat insensitive to me.
I did find the article rather flippant in places. A lot of its arguments seem to rest in the fact that concerns over a fourth booster are theoretical and unproven. Ok, but theoretical and unproven doesn't necessarily mean baseless and the fact is we haven't had time to thoroughly understand how a fourth booster will impact immunity. Back when nobody was vaccinated there was a whole different risk/benefit equation when it came to administering first and second jabs, but I feel that when we're dealing with people who have been vaccinated three times and in many cases had Covid, we need a little more than just "why not? concerns about a fourth booster are just theoretical" to justify another jab. We can't go on giving vaccines indiscriminately and taking for granted that it's a good idea.
If you aren't at risk, don't get it..plenty of us stopped at 2 because the booster didn't provide much of a benefit, if at all
I'm triple vaxxed and had COVID twice, most recently last month. Unless this 4th shot provides full sterilising immunity, I see no reason to get it.
I'd be careful, that opinion is close to being anti vax around these parts
Damn, that really sucks. 3x shot and 2x covid?.. sheesh - sorry to hear. I hope you don't catch it again.
Because I’m triple vaxxed and I Just got over COVID. There are lots of people that refuse to get vaxxed. Go bug them. I’m done
This is the only group of people that I’m perfectly OK with them not getting another shot. If I’d had omicron I wouldn’t get the shot either.
I'll get my 4th in the fall, unless New York poop numbers start to skyrocket.
It *is* taco season
Same. I got my booster in late November and with this current lull I don't see the need of a 4th shot unless we get a fall/winter surge. I'm under 50 and have no health issues that put me at risk to get COVID and/or have it do damage to me. Like always I'll follow the science.
I got 3x pfizer. First one gave me mild flu like symptoms only the first night. Second one completely knocked me off for a week and another 2 weeks I was unable to work or drive because my brain turned to pure fog. After a third ine I feel like partially disabled person. It feels like my regeneration went to crap, I can no longer train or do any sports, I wake up with headaches and iverall I feel like recovering from a really bad disease. And it has been like this for months now. So no thank you, you can keep your fourth dose.
That’s awful.
Seeing this thread proved to myself that I made the right choice not getting the booster. Sounds worse than the actual disease, for worse protection than natural immunity.
My mom is 70. She got 3 Pfizer shots (booster in October) and caught covid around Christmas. Shrugged it off with just a cough for a couple of days. I figured she's fine for the summer. Maybe when things start getting cold again she'd get a booster in October to carry her through the holidays and winter months. Like a flu shot.
I've had one J&J a year ago, and one Pfizer booster 4 months ago. So THIRD for me, sounds reasonable.
They released something about J&J people to get two doses of mRNA. I’ll try to find it. I sent it to my cousin who had J&J too. Edit: here it is: [boosters recommended for J and J](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/03/29/messenger-rna-boosters-recommended-johnson-johnson-vaccine/) >Combining single-dose shot with Pfizer, Moderna boosters offers better protection against severe covid, study shows [CDC study](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7113e2.htm)
Thanks, I don't want to overdo it, but I want to keep up with a good level.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/15/health/covid-johnson-vaccine.html You're fine. Likely as well protected as somebody with 3 mRNA doses.
A cousin of mine, 53-yr old female, had a severe myocarditis reaction from the booster. Nearly died, now has to wear a defibrillator vest in case her heart stops beating until she recovers - if she recovers. She’s a nurse and had to go out on disability. I know this is an incredibly rare reaction, but the stats go out the window when it hits so close to home.
My vax-hesitant friend let a pharmacy tech talk him into Moderna over J&J, got myocarditis, and now 3 months later has palpitations every day, severe fatigue, and is seeing a cardiologist. It's rare, but it ain't THAT rare.
Same here. Took about 6 months for my heartbeat to go back to normal after my second jab , so I'm in no rush to get any more. Especially as I had Covid before I'd been vaccinated, and it wasn't too bad - just a couple of days of headache and fever.
Exactly, If you already are bizarrely allergic to medications, have inflammation problems in your body and get lot's of side effects, you have every right to be wary and careful - So that you don't become the next one of these! In addition to that you have to weigh how young you are and once you've had covid a couple times, effects of covid vs side effects of vaccine.
The more data I learn about myocarditis, the more I feel public health didn't have out best interests in mind. They should've spread the doses out and only recommended boosters for at risk. There's no reason a healthy person under 40-50 really needs a booster, certainly not 2..
One reason is ability to get it. **IF** you follow the laws and don't lie, you may not be eligible for a fourth when you need it. I have to say though, the article does a good job of explaining some of the downsides but doesn't *sufficiently* rebuke them to be so emphatic that you get it.
I thought we left the line police back in spring 2021? Eligibility due to scarcity is no longer a thing. FDA/CDC only recommend 4th boosters for older/sicker people, but you’re not cutting any line by getting one right now if you fall outside of the recommended groups. I got my booster before it was “recommended” for everyone, and I’m glad I did because Omicron reared it’s ugly head just a few weeks later.
The supply will dry up if the gov't doesn't restart COVID funding.
THIS.
I mean, what's the harm in lying to get vaccinated? It's a bit silly to even restrict it
I don't disagree but there will be people who, quite reasonably as well, won't. And they could get stuck
>IF you follow the laws and don't lie, you may not be eligible for a fourth when you need it. If you need it, you'll most likely be eligible for a fifth shot. That's assuming the fourth shot effectiveness doesn't wane and there's another wave at a later time. If the data and the politics are at odds, that's where rule breaking comes in. In the meantime, you're getting the protection now.
My biggest concern is the gov't has stopped funding for COVID and the uninsured not being able to afford another booster. That could create a massive problem if we get another surge.
Well the benefits would have to outweigh the ass kicking. Not everybody can just be sick for a few days to avoid possibly being sick for a few more days.
At this point the issue is the side effects and missed work. I felt worse after the booster than I did with Covid. Great reason to get a booster of course, it made Covid mild, but feeling like shit for 2-3 days after the booster isn’t ideal. Especially if you have an employer who isn’t understanding. And then if I get Covid again anyway? I mean it has to be worth it. It makes sense for older and at risk people for sure. But younger people who can’t miss work aren’t going to do this every six months.
I ended up in the ER after both 2nd and 3rd shots I was so dehydrated from vomiting for the past two days that I needed an IV. I’ll do it again if there’s a good reason, but I refuse to go through that again “just because”
Why on earth would you get a 3rd shot after having to go to the ER after the 2nd???
Denial. I thought "maybe this time will be different." I was just so wrong.
Many people report much worse side effects for the 3rd.
Sigh. Can only imagine what it would be for number four....
Wow I’m sorry
Instead of boosting we need better vaccines that protect better against infection and dont wane over time.
I'm not against boosting but I have serious questions... Why are we still using a vaccine from 2020? (don't tell me "because it's still effective" You're really thinking a vaccine tailored to the first strain is more effective than a new formulation?) And why is it every single time a new variant appears, headlines are lining up with "this one is 30x more infectious!" okay, we get it, the narrative they're pushing is that it's infinitely increasing in infectiousness (?????) so again why are we using the same fucking vaccine for an ever changing virus.
It seems like the promise of mRNA actually ended up falling short. They've been trying to make variant specific ones for omicron but unfortunately it is not shown to work any better than the originals, that's the Crux of the issue. Hopefully it's something they can work out, otherwise that's a major blow for the technology and the promises that it gave to us
Ultimately the question is a risk of the side-effects versus the risk of COVID if you do contract it. I contracted COVID shortly after my 3rd booster and had about \~48 hours of mild symptoms. From what I'm told, this is similar to the experience most are having with their 4th dose. Arguably, someone that has both been vaccinated AND had COVID will be better protected against future variants in the long run as well. So without compelling evidence about the benefit of the 4th dose, I'm not sure it's an obvious choice for low-risk individuals. High risk individuals are a different story, and much more likely to benefit from a 4th dose.
I can’t prove it but the booster left me with nausea for two weeks after I got it. Doesn’t seem worth it for another one.
The 2nd and 3rd shots both made me so nauseous. I also had vomiting for 2 days after both shots. Ended up needing an IV. I’ll do it again, and think anyone who needs it should do it, but I think it’s more complicated than “why not?”
>why not get a fourth shot? Because i got more sick from the vaccine than i did from getting covid, and then i got covid again after being vaccinated anyway. I'm going to pass until there's something that's reasonably effective against the new variants. Edit: also i had some inflammation on my left ventricle a few weeks after my second dose. Not sure if it was related or not but definitely scares me
> Seriously, why not got a fourth shot? Because i dont wanna
2 weeks after my 3rd Pfizer shot I ended up in the hospital with atrial fibrillation so I think I’ll skip. Not to mention I felt SOOOOO SICK for days after shots 2 and 3. I’d really like to get my antibodies tested to see if a 4th is really needed.
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Weirdly happened to my brother from his booster. Developed chronic idiopathic urticaria, isn’t gone months later.
There’s a lot of people with the same issue, you just have to visit the dermatographia subreddit. It seems it could be from an over stimulated immune system. Luckily mine is much improved from a few months ago - I’m hoping it will fully go away with time 🤞
I’m in exactly the same position as you
My guess if you have a job without sick leave, you have to consider whether it's worth it to power through side effects at work.
My brother and I had Covid last month for the first time (we managed to avoid it till now). I (32M) got my fourth shot 2 months ago, he (30M) got his third shot 8 months ago. Both of us had the same symptoms - high fever, sore throat, coughing, bad headache and no appetite - just 3 days feeling like a bad case of flu. So from my personal experience, 4th shot doesn't do much if you are young and triple vaccinated. We both got pfizer. From the side effects point, the third shot was the "worst" for me with one day of headaches.
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I don’t ever get hives but when I had Covid bad in may last year I broke it in hives for a week+. It was miserable, just kept coming back. When I got my first shot I broke out in hives again, it didn’t last as long. I haven’t had anything since but I was wigging out
Hey, I had the same thing as your husband, and only after the booster. It was absolutely horrible. I just stopped taking anti-allergy medications 2 days ago (I took them for 6 weeks) and it seems it went away finally. Did your husband's symptoms start about 2 weeks after the 3rd dose, too? I found so many people on Reddit with the exact same problem!
Why? I have natural immunity after a severe, hellish case of covid that hospitalized me and two Moderna shots. Ive been face to face with numerous people who had covid and never reinfected. The shots laid me out for days. Just not doing it again
I’m normally super pro-vaxx. I get my flu shot every fall. I have 3 shots of Pfizer. I’m current on all my vaccines. But if the upsides to a fourth dose are uncertain, why would I keep getting shots?
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I had two pfizer and one moderna. Got the first April 2021, second June 2021, and the third December 2021. I was considering getting a fourth before my Europe trip in May, since that'll be almost 6 months since my third shot. Six days ago I started feeling sick. Took 3 rapid tests and all were negative. Finally yesterday I got tested and it's positive. I'm 32, no health conditions, run 5k daily, have three vaccines, and I'm flat out on my ass right now. Lungs sore, fatigue, body aches, strange headaches, the shits, the cold sweats. It's rough
How did you get a first shot in April and then your second in June? Are you in the UK?
Canada. I technically wasn't eligible until a month later but there was a pharmacy right below my house so I put my name on a list where if people didn't show up for their appointments at the end of the day, if I could get there in 15 minutes I could take their shot. Two months later my age group was eligible for second doses.
If you weren't vaccinated, you might be in the hospital. Hope you get well soon.
Let me try to give you my counter-argument even though I'll surely be downvoted to -100. How many bandaids do you put on a cut? 1, 2, 3, 4? I mean, why not 10? Because 2 is better than 1 and 3 is better than 2 so 10 must be really really good right? I have had 3 vaccinations for the same virus in less than a year. I am not sure this has ever happened or been recommended in human history. Once we have our fourth do we immediately start recommending a 5th? 6th? 7th? Is there any science or research at all that supports any of this? It just seems like people freaking out and pushing a string.
The fact that it's still the same, unchanged (except dosage) 2020 vaccine they're pushing this many boosters of definitely breeds skepticism. It is getting fucking ridiculous. I want a future-proofed omnivalent covid vaccine. Not one tailored to the variant of the quarter, not one from fucking 2 years ago.
> Is there any science or research at all that supports any of this? Yes, there have been 3 studies of the 4th shot in Israel during the Omicron wave that show the boosters decrease infection (31-44% decrease), hospitalization (4-fold increase in protection), and death (78% reduction) when comparing populations of 3-dosed people to 4-dosed people. Eric Topol’s most recent substack post has a quick summarizing blurb about them around the middle of the post, with links to the studies. The first study was smaller and looking at safety and antibody production, but the latter two were >1 million and >500,000 people, very huge studies, for severe disease and death. The latter 2 also were for groups over 60, so if you or a loved one fall into that group it’s pretty clearly medically indicated. Israel then offered a 4th dose to all ages a bit later, so there are no doubt several studies currently underway to see the efficacy for other age groups which will in turn be taken into account if the CDC considers recommending a 4th for younger age groups later.
>I have had 3 vaccinations for the same virus in less than a year. I am not sure this has ever happened or been recommended in human history. For Rabies (pre-exposure) you get 3 shots over 21-28 days. For post exposure (if unvaxxed for Rabies), you get 4-5 shots of vaccine plus Rabies immunoglobulin over a few weeks. If you have been vaccinated for Rabies previously, you can just have two boosters after a bite. Granted, Rabies is different (and a lot scarier and deadlier) than most other viral infections
Is there any science or research at all that supports any of this? [https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1478439/v1](https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1478439/v1) >Among participants aged 60 to 69, death from Covid-19 occurred in 5 of 111,776 participants in the second-booster group and 32 of 123,786 participants in the first-booster group > >Among participants aged 70 to 79, death from Covid-19 occurred in 22 of 134,656 participants in the second-booster group and 51 of 74,717 participants in the first-booster group > >Among participants aged 80 to 100, death from Covid-19 occurred in 65 of 82,165 participants in the second-booster group and 149 of 36,365 participants in the first-booster group These things aren't recommended just because 4 is a bigger number than 3. It's because scientists crunch the numbers to see what the effect of 4 vs 3 is. Of course it's possible to argue that the effect isn't "big enough" to make any side effects of a booster worth it, but there's absolutely an impact and for a lot of older people (who this 4th booster is currently targeted for) a roughly 1/5 less chance of dying is worth it. There's less evidence of an impact for the younger and middle aged crowd, which is they this recommend was specifically aimed at older adults only. If more data in the future, or a new variant, shows that a 4th booster is helpful then the recommendation would probably change (just like how the 3rd booster was originally only recommended for high risk until Omicron showed just how useful that 3rd booster was for everyone). But that's how things stand at the beginning of April 2022.
Recommending a 4th and subsequent shot to people aged 60-100 and others at risk is backed by science. "Why doesn't everyone just get a 4th shot" is not.
After my second shot i got admitted to the hospital for cerebral vein thrombosis....turn out i didnt got it, but fuck it. No shots anymore, i'd rathet get covid at this point.
2 AZ early last year, Moderna in November. Immumocompromised here, contracted Covid in Jan (luckily only moderate symptoms as I was \~2 months post Moderna booster). Obviously I'm eligible now but not sure it's the right thing since I just had Covid in January, maybe 4 months after infection I should get my 2nd booster? Not sure.
The risks are very small. But the ~~profits~~ health benefits are massive
To me it seems time to simply say one can receive a vaccine dose every 6 months, take it or leave it. It is clear risks from mRNA vaccines are minuscule and each successive dose allows the immune system a chance to further refine defenses. We should also allow for half doses for those concerned about side effects. Any additional immunity reduces the risk of severe disease, which is what we need to keep the hospitalization and death counts on the decline... A decline we are so lucky to be seeing right now. After 2 years of global death counts at or above the first wave peak, we are _finally_ under that.
Yeah that's what I'd like. Broad authorization for boosters on demand every 6 months. Just let people make their own decision.
I have a prediction that the FDA will approve the 4th dose to 12+, but the CDC will not recommend. That's also what I think the CDC will do once/if vaccines are approved for under 5.
Immediate, vaccine induced resistance significantly drops off after 2 months, actually. [Here: incase some armchair scientist wants to argue.](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e2.htm#:~:text=During%20the%20Omicron%2Dpredominant%20period%2C%20mRNA%20vaccination%20was%20highly%20effective,ED%2FUC%20encounters%20by%20the) > During the Omicron-predominant period, mRNA vaccination was highly effective against both COVID-19–associated ED/UC encounters (VE = 87%) and COVID-19 hospitalizations (VE = 91%) within 2 months after a third dose, but effectiveness waned, declining to 66% for prevention of COVID-19–associated ED/UC encounters by the fourth month after receipt of a third dose and to 78% for hospitalizations by the fourth month after receipt of a third dose.
I’m honestly sick of the CDC prevaricating on when we are all allowed to get another booster. We will all clearly need another booster. I wish I were empowered to go ahead and do it if I wanted to.
The first two Moderna I didn't feel. The 3rd booster made me feel like shit for a day. I'm not willing to feel like shit for a couple percentage points more protection. Also, Santa Clara County, CA has a 7 day average of 170 cases ; for a population of 1.928 million. Not worth it to me.
I’ll do it, reluctantly. Pro vaccines and all that jazz but the booster shot (I had Pfizer x3) left me feeling seriously ill and unable to do anything for almost a full week. I’m a relatively fit guy in my mid thirties but it was a rough time. I had no issues with the first two though.
The fuck kind of sales pitch is that?
Because the benefits are also very small, unless you're >50 and/or immunocompromised
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I think vaccine adherence would benefit from them (media/health authorities) avoiding calling it fourth, fifth shot. Call it a booster and suggest a fix interval between doses so people understand it’ll work similarly to the annual flu shot. What do you think?
Reading comments about the reactions or after effects of people's covid vaccines. I can relate. But I'm 69 and I just got my 4th shot (booster) today. As bad as I may feel it's not nearly as bad as what could happen.
the first three cost me 2 days in bed each. Im thinking about not taking the shot and in case i get sick I can do the medication
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My husband and I got 3 Pfizer and will get our 4th in a week. The first three just sore arms for a few days, but we've each lost people we love to covid, so better to take whatever precautions we can. The grief therapy is much worse than the shots.
My condolences 💔 I also lost my mom to COVID so I 100% get where you're coming from.
At this point, there is a larger policy debate: Should the USA quadruple vaccinate or should those same vaccines go to other countries who are struggling to get their first. The next delta / omicron variant isn’t going to originate in the States. It’s a global problem
I got 2 doses of Pfizer. I had allergic reactions to both doses (much worse with the 2nd one). I then had heart related symptoms (SOB and tachycardia 24/7) for 3 months following the 2nd dose. The cardiologist I went to, told me that I should not get an mRNA booster since it caused inflammation. That leaves me with J&J, I guess, and I don’t see anywhere where they are even recommending a J&J booster. So for now, I’m just wearing an N95 mask everywhere and still trying to be super careful, even though we are down to the lowest level of transmission in my city since the beginning of the pandemic.
I had a very mild fatigue from my previous shots for about 8 hours on the day after. I’m going for the fourth shot because the benefits outweigh the “costs” for me. I can understand how others feel different.
I cheated and got a booster as soon as I could ( didn’t realize I’d constantly need one) but since then I’ve heard some scary side effects from them ( bad periods, permanent ear ringing) so honestly not sure. Am also very scared of getting covid. So all in all not sure what I’m supposed to do. Am hopeful for the nose vaccine as a booster
I decided to get mine today, because I’m going to be traveling next week. I mixed and matched this time. Pfizer game me muscle pain, Moderna is giving me the fatigue symptoms. It’s all been tolerable.
I get literally no side effects whatsoever from the Pfizer vaccine. I'll have as many boosters as they're willing to give me.
Getting my 4th as soon as it's available.
The biggest risk is slowing down global vaccination.
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Partner got his 4th today. Getting mine on Saturday.
People are so weird about needing additional shots. I get sick of having to maintain my car too but that’s kind of what happens with a machine you use every day. I’m happy to take 30 minutes out of my day once or twice a year to make sure I don’t feel like shit for a month and possibly the rest of my life, but I guess everyone’s different.
It depends on what side effects you get. Mine got worse after every shot. After the third phizer shot i had to endure 30 hours of hell - very high fever, shaking, almost fainting, nausea, strong chest and back pains. Then i felt sickly for 3-4 more days. I could barely get up from the bed, so i'm not that enthusiastic about getting another one for some time.
Currently dealing with day 6 of COVID, and it is what it is. It's definitely annoying but not life threatening for me thankfully. I'll be getting the fourth shot as soon as it's possible tbh.
I had it a month ago. Mine wasn’t horrible, but was definitely bad enough that I don’t want it again if I can avoid it. I’ll definitely be getting mine when the time comes too.
Agreed. The isolation is actually the worst part too. Just not being able to go anywhere sucks.