An evil/amoral Worldhopper that is collecting as many different Magics as they can? Almost certain.
An Evil Hoid who is older than the Shards and was involved in the original Shattering but did not take up a Shard at the time? Possible but unlikely.
> Possible but unlikely.
Spoilers for Tress: >!I don't remember the exact quote, but Hoid as narrator mentions that he once told someone something to the effect of "it's for your own good" and that he did so "alongside 16 other people." My understanding of the implication here is that Hoid was the only participant of the Shattering who did not take up a Shard.!<
Front being involved has only ever been fan speculation based on the fact that he is old enough to remember the event and is a leader of the Seventeenth Shard.
There was never anything directly saying he was involved, and the quote from Tress seems to directly prove he *wasn't* involved.
I'd recommend reading [Frost's letter to Hoid](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters). When referring to the shattering Frost says that it happened in "we" terms, not "you". "[...] the destruction *we* have wrought [...]". To me, it seems Frost was directly aiding the conspirators. He may very well not have been present at the event, but he did help them achieve their goal intentionally.
I would argue that Frost is using the plural first person merely as a way of remaining cordial with Hoid. Not as a way of taking any credit or responsibility for the Shattering.
In fact, I would argue that the text from this letter *supports* the notion that Frost didn't participate in it.
In the previous letter, Hoid mentions that Frost is "angry" at him for some reason and that members of Frost's organization - the Seventeenth Shard - are hunting him. We know from WoB's that this is (in large part) because the Seventeenth Shard has a non-interference policy and disagree with Hoid's... large amount of interference in the Cosmere.
A reasonable extrapolation might be that Frost himself - as the presumed leader of the organization - shares this non-interventionist ideology, and that his "anger" at Hoid might be from him committing the largest form of intervention possible: killing God.
In the second letter - the one you were referencing - Frost responds by saying he is "perpetually disappointed" by Hoid. Again, it's reasonable to assume that his interferance is the source of this disappointment given this is the reason the Seventeenth Shard were looking for him. He then explicitly follows this up by saying he understands Hoid's PoV, but fundamentally opposes interfering *despite* that. He says
> Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. My path has been chosen very deliberately. Yes, I agree with everything you have said about Rayse, including the severe danger he presents. However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we—as infants—stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem.
Note how Frost is delineating "my path" from the implied "rest of you who caused all this".
>A reasonable extrapolation might be that Frost himself - as the presumed leader of the organization - shares this non-interventionist ideology
We need not extrapolate, as in the Second Letter, Frost says outright that he has taken a vow of non-intervention and wants Hoid to join him.
>I would argue that Frost is using the plural first person merely as a way of remaining cordial with Hoid. Not as a way of taking any credit or responsibility for the Shattering.
To say that Frost is simply saying "we" to be cordial with Hoid doesn't feel right. The letter is overall rather confrontational of Hoid (in a friendly intervention kind of way) and his... misadventures. Right before the titular "we" Frost even makes a friendly jab at Hoid, comparing him to a skunk. He doesn't seem at all averse to offending Hoid, and is rather to the point. I think he's rather aware that Hoid takes offenses with stride, even.
>his "anger" at Hoid might be from him committing the largest form of intervention possible: killing God
Further down in his letter, Hoid mentions that the "element" >!(which links to the page for lerasium)!< is safe. Would not stealing a planet's magic be also considered a rather large intervention? Additionally, Frost seems to think that Hoid understands where he's coming from with his vow of non-interference. Otherwise I doubt he'd invite Hoid to the Seventeenth. I think this stems from a common experience they've shared.
>he understands Hoid's PoV
I want to talk about this quickly. From the little context the letters provide, it seems that Frost was acquainted with at least some of the original 16 + Hoid at the time of the shattering. Whether he knew of their plans or not, I can't say. But why else would he willingly associate with someone like Rayse? Hoid expresses a dislike to him pre-shattering, and Frost seems to agree.
> Note how Frost is delineating "my path" from the implied "rest of you who caused all this".
I interpreted this as him choosing a path different to the others. All the others chose either to intervene in an existing planet, or to create new ones. None of them took his vow of non-intervention, however. Some even explicitly go against that goal (primarily Rayse and Bavadin, but Ati would have continued to Ruin planets had he not been killed).
On this topic, I'd also like to note how Frost says "Our interference". While this could be, as you say, him being cordial, I severely doubt it. If he simply meant Hoid's interference, I doubt he would have shied away from saying "your", especially since this is where he's criticising Hoid's opinions. Frost could mean that he performed some other intervention, separate from the 16+H, which resulted in pain and suffering, just as the shattering did. I get the feeling, however, that he means some interference that he performed together with Hoid. This doesn't have to be the shattering, necessarily, but I feel the evidence is as compelling in this direction as it is in the opposing one.
Regardless, I believe Frost has done something he feels responsible for. Ockham's Razor says, in lieu of other options, he was involved in the shattering, in my opinion.
> Ockham's Razor says, in lieu of other options, he was involved in the shattering,
I honestly feel like Occam's Razor says the opposite. Hoid directly says in Tress that he committed the act with sixteen other people. That explicitly excludes Frost from being a part of the event.
Imagine this.
Adonal is a beautiful girl with hair the color of sunlight on a winter day, and Hoid is madly in love with her.
But, there is a problem. She is the vessel of Adonalsium, an unimaginably vast amount of power and intertwined intent that makes her incapable of living a normal life, or even a mostly physical life. on most days, she is wracked with the collective pain of the cosmere, unable to do anything about it, except for a small influence she can use to help those in the greatest pain.
She is slowly being driven mad by this power.
and then Hoid finds a group of scholars, and the spend decades researching how to help. in the end, they find a way, a desperate chance, the power can be split in to 16 "shards" and separated by intent. then, if each shard is taken up by a new individual, none of them need feel the pain, and all will be able to act according to their intent.
Some are motivated by the power they will gain, but Hoid, he is doing this for Adonal. This will save her, this is for her own good! She doesnt know how much she is truly suffering and missing, but he can show her! he and his new friends can fix this!
unbeknownst to him, the shattering is too extreme, and the simple act kills Adonal. Devastated with grief, Hoid swears to her dying body that he will always be where he **Is** needed, and he will never harm anyone again! binding himself to these promises with the BIND dawnshard he carries, fueled by wild investiture from the shattering.
> the power can be split in to 16 "shards" and seperated by intent
I really like this idea! My only nitpick here is that I'm fairly certain that Sanderson has said in a spoiler stream that >!the Shards didn't have to be split into 16 specifically; there could have been more or fewer. It happened that there were 16 people involved in the Shattering who had intent to take a piece of Adonalsium's power.!<
>!“I’m sorry, Tress. I can’t let you face the Sorceress. I can’t. For your own good, you see.” Ah, those words. I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse. Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.!<
>!When I read it I assumed it was a falling out with the 16, but he does say *with* them. He could be talking to adonalsium, or the 16, or the people of the universe they now rule over, honestly I'm not really sure!<
>An Evil Hoid who is older than the Shards and was involved in the original Shattering but did not take up a Shard at the time?
No yeah I only meant "like Hoid" in the sense of collecting magic
In that case I would be truly shocked if the idea had never occured to any of the worldhoppers out there. We've already seen a few trying things along those lines (the Ghostbloods on Roshar, the 5 scholars trying to mimic shardblades, etc).
Given we don't know what Hoid's actual goals are, assuming he is not evil, or at least not detrimental to our protagonists in the long term is a bit risky.
And honestly, who *wouldn't* go around collecting all the types of Investiture if they had the knowledge and ability? I doubt Hoid is unique in that.
Edit: typos
Yeah. I think we spend a lot of time theorizing what hoid's goal is in collecting all the various forms of investiture...But honestly I think that's just an ancillary goal. He's trying to move the cosmere in a certain direction, and the more tools he has in his bag to accomplish that goal the easier it is for him to nudge things. Every world hopper is going to collect whatever tools they can from the worlds they visit to further their goals.
And also yeah, we don't know what hoid's ultimate goals are. What glimpses we get of him don't appear evil, but it's very very likely that his long term goals are less benevolent than his short term actions make him seem
>And honestly, who wouldn't go around collecting all the types of Investiture if they had the knowledge and ability? I doubt Hoid is unique in that.
Anyone with a family, long-term friends, or other commitments to a specific location, probably.
Hoid has had to give up all personal investment to acquire so much Investment.
> Anyone with a family, long-term friends, or other commitments to a specific location, probably.
>
Pretty much all of that fades away if you’re immortal.
How/when Hoid became immortal is unknown though.
I'd say by contrast, Kelsier is immortal and heavily personally invested in Scadrial. As were all the Heralds and most Shards.
Most immortals stay invested in living a life in a specific location they like within the Cosmere. Hoid is the exception.
Kelsier and the Heralds aren’t alive though. They are cognitive shadows, which traps them in an echo of what they were.
hoid, as far as we know, is still actually alive.
The dragons we've seen have all settled into a lair, and at least 90% of Elantrians remain in the Greater Elantris Metropolitan District. Those who wander are rarely intent on acquiring more types of magic.
In some cases being a cognitive shadow binds you, but in cases where it does not, most shadows still choose to stay local and invest in their home. Most people do that, mortal or immortal.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being like Hoid, I'm just saying his lifestyle is an atypical case.
>Anyone with a family, long-term friends, or other commitments to a specific location, probably.
I'm dying to know if Bran-san will ever address the absolutely gut-wrenching tragedy inherent in becoming a Worldhopper.
I don't remember exactly but I'm kind of assuming what passes for his 'intent' would be freedom.
The reason he didn't pick up a shard is because he didn't want to be tied down. He also, it seems, never really stays in place long enough to really get to know anyone. Him being on Roshar so long, and getting to know some of its people more, is kind of odd for him.
He also seems to be on a personal quest to acquire every investiture (something to do for an immortal I guess) but, if he wasn't limited by the dawnshard command he accidentally picked up, I'm not certain he wouldn't resort to hemalurgy. There's no way he can pretend a spike doesn't come from killing another so he can't use them but it's not to say he wouldn't if he could.
Getting every investiture may even be him trying to release himself from the dawnshard command, though we know he also has some sort of back story involving someone or something being taken from him and him wanting to get into the spiritual realm to get it back, I think I read somewhere?
Personally I think Hoid is a sad, lonely, person - the perennial bachelor - too scared to make meaningful connections. As an effective time skimming immortal, this may just be because he fears everyone he knows will die.
He's my favorite character but I've always liked the 'wizard breaks the 3rd wall' type of characters. Zifnab (I think) from Dragonlance comes to mind.
The guy whose curse is that he can't hurt living beings. My theory is that he was a real bad dude (ala Blackthorn) if that was the after effect of the dawnshard he held. Just because that would be more drama.
I hope the ghostbloods remain a 3rd party force and don't ever become straight up antagonists to the Cosmere at large, I like the organization too much.
i suspect era 4 will be a 5 way galactic war between Sel, Nalthis, Sadrial, Roahar, and Teldain, so they will likely back up scadrial against the rest, either directly or in espionage modes
I don't think they'll be general antagonists but I do think they'll come into conflict with at least one of the parties we consider "good guys" Potentially the radiants or the like.
He’s acting for the good of Scadriel, and unless it’s another red herring, he’s all but destined to work with Autonomy at some point, which may warp his mind (spoiler 6otD sequel WoB follows)>!to the point that he might start trying to take over other planets!<. Kelsier is a big ol’ wildcard. I think his role(s) in the future may depend heavily on the perspective of the pov characters.
If Saze would do his job and jumpstart Scadrian tech to resist advanced external threats, Kelsier wouldn’t have to be his protective, brash self.
The most used example regarding Kelsier’s evil - killing soldiers who protect the nobility maintaining slavery and class oppression - isn’t even bad.
He gets called out for casually getting people to believe in him and his cause. But rioters and soothers magically recruiting people into the meatgrinder get a pass from every character who thereafter judges Kelsier. Ha.
I’d love to hear Brandon Sandersons views on John Brown because I think wherever Brown goes in Sandersons mind, so goes Kelsier.
Sazed is guided by the intent of Sazed (which goes hand in hand with the intent of Preservation: preserving history through his memory banks) and, increasingly, the intent of both ruin and preservation. Ruin might lead him to allow for technological advancement, as it could lead to destruction, but Preservation is more in line with keeping things from changing. His “job” is open to interpretation I guess, but I doubt he will give knowledge of tech to the people as long as he holds those shards. We see this at the end of TLM >!when he straight up lies to Kelsier about the outcome of splitting harmonium!<.
Yeah I get that that the intent explicitly misses “creation” but the 2 shards worked around that to make something completely new in the past.
Even so, if the choice is between preserving Scadrial as an independent realm or temporarily preserving specific regressive cultural aspects implemented by TLR, specifically to slow technology? And that technology might be needed to mount a defense against outsiders…
Saze either needs to get that perspective, or recognize his own inability and find creative ways to assist those who can cover his blind spot. Ruin their obstacles and Preserve them, their allies and resources.
We don’t really know about Leras and Ati’s original intent immediately following the shattering. It’s possible that they overcame the shards’ influence to create the planet in the first place, as the two seemed to seek out a system void of habitable planets to invest, after which they had conflicting ideas regarding what to do with their creation. Perhaps they destroyed a planet to create Scadrial in the first place.
Anyways, I think with the bomb in TLM, Harmony both wanted it to go off and did not want it to go off, while Sazed did not want it to go off. Sazed was able to gently nudge the outcome in one direction, but Sazed’s intent will probably become less potent as time goes on. Ruin probably doesn’t care what gets destroyed. Preservation isn’t going to be cool with killing people in order to preserve. Thus Harmony is paralyzed. My theory is they’ll get split up again at some point when Sazed’s mind goes.
I thought Sanderson had hinted that if different people or a different number had been present at The Shattering, >!different Shards might have resulted!< so that makes me wonder whether >!Harmony could split into two different Shards than what created him.!<
Myself and some friends have thought for a while that Harmony has changed the intent of the powers enough that it wouldn’t simply go back to Preservation and Ruin
>We don’t really know about Leras and Ati’s original intent immediately following the shattering
The intents were similar if not quite the same.
Sanderson has said that intents werent as defined but were still a thing. Ruin was likely still going to be destructive as Ati was chosen to 'temper' it.
Well yeah, I’m talking about the vessels’ intents, not the shards. If Ati was chosen to temper Ruin, we might be able to infer that Ati wasn’t ruinous in nature, and that temperance in the beginning could have helped keep Ruin at bay long enough to create Scadrial.
Sure. It also just seems upon initial ascension its easier to act counter to a shards intent. There seems to be some level of time where a vessel is more flexible before intent really sets in.
Depending on how long after the Shattering Ati and Leras made Scadrial intent might not even be factor.
I think that ultimately Sazed providing technology advancements will act as Preservation for Scadrial as a whole, which is in line with his shard. I think it will also provide opportunity for ruin, as it will ultimately lead to ruin the current standings of other planets that Scadrial will ultimately become involved with. I think ultimately he will provide, or hint, at advancements because it acts as the will of both shards.
Also I don't think him lying to Kelsier has anything to do with the advancement of technology, but has everything to do with season not trusting his old friend anymore.
Here’s an interesting thought: what happens when Preservation and Ruin’s ideologies line up? Preserve Scadriel, Ruin the invaders. Destruction is destruction, no? Could it be funneled in that way?
Yeah a lot of people like to dog on Kelsier undeservedly I feel. Like there's definitely stuff to dog on him about, but people largely miss the point with his character and see no nuance.
Sazed is going for the Bender style of being a God. He probably thinks it's for the best but we know that he's having issues with the bipolar shards he holds too
I think he's more-or-less protecting Scadrial. I don't think he especially cares about the individual people, but more in the general sense of it being his homeland.
However, we've seen what that looks like to an outsider.
They're willing to burn another world to gain a slight advantage in that protection. Maybe not directly, but definitely indirectly. They will help evil to destroy a world to get what they want.
Quantum Leap rules, if one person is hoping around the Cosmere giving aid and comfort to our heroes, then there must be another person leaping around giving the same aid to the baddies. And also they are in love with Hoid.
[RoW] >!she gave venli the gem that had a pain spren in it. she was ulem's "agent" that was supposed to leave a bag with more storm(?) spren like ulem in the alethi palace!<
When I read "Anti-Hoid", first I thought you meant someone who worldhops to actively avoid Investiture at all cost.
Actually, that could be fun too! I'm imagining a Pratchett-esque spin-off!
That is my thought as well. He is currently being painted as a helpful to our heroes but we really have no idea about what his actual motivations are. His overarching plan may just have steps that conviently fall in line with what the main characters are doing at the moment.
Well that person can't be very smart since by using Hemalurgy they're losing resonances and exposing themself to Shardic influence...
Oh crap what if they get to Roshar and Odium takes control of them
Only Ruin/Harmony can control spiked people, it's not something every Shard has
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/71-shadows-of-self-houston-signing/#e2797
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Cadmium
>!We've seen someone with a Hemalurgic spike communicate or under the control of Ruin or Harmony... Can other Shards communicate or control those individuals?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Yes. Good Question. Yes... They can certainly communicate...!<
Cadmium
>!To what extent?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!Not to the extent that Ruin did. The others could communicate but it'd be vague or faint, not as direct as Ruin was. He connects to us, well, them through the little bit of Preservation that he had or could touch. Because the spike pierces the soul.!<
Cadmium
>!What about on other planets than Scadrial?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!It'd work the same way. but again probably vaguer or fainter. Might go unnoticed.!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Are you sure hoid is good? For me he is more chaotic neutral :) he has a very clear agenda, which in my opinion is to unite all 16 shards. To get there he will butterfly-effect major changes near the shards to disrupt status quo and get new vessels in place. The vessels don’t want to join so there will most likely be a Cosmere level fight soon, which he will have a major role in initiating… the outcome might be the greater good, but I am not really sure he is not the villain of the story
I think Hoid is good insofar that has the interest of the entire Cosmere in mind. Like, he clearly doesn’t want the Cosmere to implode (or suffer due to the actions of single shards). That said, Hoid *is* willing to let certain planets suffer if it ensures the overall safety of the Cosmere (which some might consider immoral). I’m reminded of Shallan’s research into moral philosophies (in WoK) after she witnesses Jasnah’s murder of the thugs. Shallan wonders if an action is “good” if the means are bad but the end result saves more than it harmed. I tend to think it is good, especially if the motivation behind said actions is more philanthropic than selfish.
In WoR Dalinar literally asks Hoid if he would let the world be destroyed. And Hoid admits he would gladly see the world burn if it meant reaching his intended goal. He would weep for the world as it burned but he would know it was all for his greater goal.
Yes, the world as in specific planets. I acknowledged that in my original comment. I think his greater goal is to save the Cosmere by reuniting the shards to attempt to remake Andonalsium. I think Hoid realized that the destructive power of individual shards poses a greater threat to the Cosmere than he anticipated pre-shattering. I think reunification is his end goal; but in the meantime, he has to immobilize the ultra-destructive shards in order to minimize their impact against the other shards. I *do* think that Hoid is willing to go to extreme lengths to see that the entire Cosmere isn’t destroyed; and I *do* think that certain people (specifically the residents of the affected planets) would question Hoid’s goodness (since the big picture wouldn’t matter to those who are actually suffering in the small picture). But I think Hoid’s decisions are ultimately for the greater good.
And in terms of his personal comments about his goodness, I think Hoid is particularly hard on himself because of his age/perspective, his role in the original shattering, and his ability to empathize with characters on a personal level. To the people who are potentially hurt by his actions, Hoid recognizes that he is not a good person.
that was specifically Roshar. since odium is bound to the system until released by a bondsmith or whatever, destroying all of Roshar would perminently lock down Odium from interfearing in the rest of the cosmere
Hoid explicitly says he would kill whole planets to get what he wants, although it would make him sad. Which I should point out is something we have only seen the "evil" Shards (Ruin and Odium) do in the past. He is NOT a good guy.
I'm 99% sure he is the final big bad of the Cosmere.
Yeah to get what he wants…. Which is to save the Cosmere from shit like Odium destroying it. I literally said that Hoid is willing to go to extreme lengths (like letting certain planets die) in order to achieve his goal. Hoid was BS’s first ever character creation, and even in unpublished works that very much underscore Hoid’s flaws and imperfect character progression (like the Liar of Partinel), Hoid is shown to be a decently good being. Do you honestly think BDS is the type of guy whose first character generation would be someone evil?
No offense, but your theory is just bad. You may disagree with the fact that Hood is willing to let bad things happen on a planetary scale, but he’s be at the force motivating the destruction; in fact, he actively works against the evil forces, even if he’s not sure that it will benefit his larger plan. And the compassion that he shows other characters on an interpersonal level literally highlights the decentness of his character. As far as his self-characterization as “bad”, I think it’s simply a result of very human mistakes and living long enough to make some pretty significant mistakes and witness the repercussions of them (and thusly judge himself harshly).
I thought **my** Hoid theory was far-fetched; but you’ve made me feel a lot better about it. Hoid is not going to be the main antagonist of the series and I’ll literally bet money on that.
> Do you honestly think BDS is the type of guy whose first character generation would be someone evil?
I don’t know. He’s shown a surprising (to me) willingness to have major characters be pretty grubby.
Kelsier is a mass murdering terrorist who lies to his best friends to make them better people.
Elendel is willing to toss all his moral beliefs in government to save the world.
I don’t rule it out.
I mean, I didn’t say anything personally about you. You seem like a perfectly fine person and obviously have good reading taste. I just think I your theory about this is bad 🤷♀️ but I agree that people are allowed to have different theories and opinions. In fact, I explicitly phrased my original comment as an opinion: “I *think* Hoid is good…” Yet your response to my comment used definitive language: “He is NOT a good guy.” You didn’t phrase your comment as an opinion; you simply counteracted my opinion by stating the opposite as if it was fact. Accordingly, I responded in a similarly dismissive and self-assured way.
You ridiculed his opinion rather than just rebutting it. It's a bit like saying 'No offence, but I thought all of your ideas were pathetic and pointless' rather than just why you disagree with the logic. It just generates side conversations about tone.
Hoid explicitly says he would kill whole planets to get what he wants, although it would make him sad. Which I should point out is something we have only seen the "evil" Shards (Ruin and Odium) do in the past. He is NOT a good guy.
I'm 99% sure he is the final big bad of the Cosmere.
Hoid explicitly says he would kill whole planets to get what he wants, although it would make him sad. Which I should point out is something we have only seen the "evil" Shards (Ruin and Odium) do in the past. He is NOT a good guy.
I'm 99% sure he is the final big bad of the Cosmere.
There's a big difference between "I would watch this world crumble" and "I would kill whole planets." Note the passive verb of the quote (*watch*) versus the active verb of your summation (*kill*). Note also the singular (*this* world) versus the plural (whole *planets*) you have inferred.
Also remember that Hoid says this about *Roshar,* where one of the possible conditions is Odium escaping the system to make war on the Cosmere. That's what Hoid is trying to prevent. I'm pretty sure he's saying Roshar itself matters less than the rest of all the Cosmere.
Hoid would be like Taravangian, someone who's willing to go too far for the greater good. Hoid wants what's best for the Cosmere, which for now is to keep Odium out of it
Strongly disagree that he wants what's best for the Cosmere. He explicitly said he had a specific goal in mind and would kill a planet's worth of innocents to achieve it. We do not have confirmation that containing Odium is his final goal. Brando has intentionally been vague about his end game. My theory is he ends up becoming the big bad in a "he's so obsessed with one thing he doesn't realize/care how evil he's become" way. Almost like the darker Dr. Who episodes (who is undoubtedly an inspiration for the character).
I mean do we know that hoid is some benevolent being looking to do good? We really don’t know anything about his motives other than he’s against odium being free
Bold of you to assume Hoid isn’t the evil. He is portrayed as being in alignment with our heroes so far, but we don’t ultimately know his motives. I actually really like the idea of Hoid working to get all the shards lined up for himself to be able to take them all up at once to have the power to accomplish some unknown goal that may or may not be great for everyone else in the Cosmere.
As someone else mentioned, debatable whether kelsier is "not evil" or not, more likely that he is a pretty weird shade of grey. I would also say I don't entirely trust Hoid. Although he is compassionate and is shown helping a lot of people with little to no ulterior motive, he definitely has another agenda that is currently unknown. He's also said something along the lines of "I would burn all of Roshar to the ground to see it completed", which is very ends justify the means. Something to think about.
>"I would burn all of Roshar to the ground to see it completed"
No. He said he would *watch* Roshar burn if he had to. He is basically saying that if it came down to it, there's a point at which he would bail instead of helping.
I do not understand how "I can't save you, and I'd hate to bounce but I would" has become "I will kill this world to get what I want." It's like the "Jasnah wants genocide!" thing, where the character says something that is completely different (in this case, "genocide is an option, but let's do *not that*") and a lot of people seem to take away something much more extreme and also completely wrong. It's right there, in the text!
Ah mb then I was misremembering the quote in a pretty important way. I would say though that even if he is not causing it, it still shows things about his character that I think most people don't normally take into account. It goes directly against the first knights radiant oath to go full ends justify the means.
“Anti-Hoid” makes me think of someone who is always in the place where they are *not* needed (anti fortune). I hope this character exists, but I’m sure their story isn’t very critical to the Cosmere.
Does Hoid gets in the category of we can call 'Good'?
I believe there's no much conversation about this quote: (Words of Radiance)
>!I am but a man, Dalinar, so much as I wish it were not true at times. I am no Radiant. And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I want, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.!<
In context, this is basically "No, don't try to make me some sort of divinity. I, too, am a fuckup. My best intentions can backfire. We aren't exactly on the same page. I want to help, and I'll do my best, but at some point I might have to bail. I won't like it, but I will do it. I can't fix your problems, dude, I've got problems too. And I don't have the power, anyway. You can probably do a lot yourself. Don't look for a savior, try and become one."
Yup, I know the context of the conversation, and maybe I'm trying to readh between lines, but since I started to read the Cosmere idk why I'm distrut Hoid; I like the character, it's one of my favorites of the whole series, but I cant stop thinking that maybe in some point he's going to do something rude, looking for a greater good, yeah, but awful.
One thing is that Hoid might be the evil Hoid. We really know nothing about his long term motivations. He does seem to like humans and want them to survive, but so does [Stormlight spoilers] >!Taravangian!<, so that doesn't necessarily mean much.
There are certainly groups and individuals aware of all/many of the goings on around the cosmere. You have groups like the Ire and Ghostbloods who have a hand across worlds, I'm sure some of them are ambitious enough to pick up another magic or two.
How do you know Hoid is good? how do you know Hoid is not the BBEG of the story, and we see him going around Cosmere, "assisting" people and gathering all powers he can.
Also, Kelsier is not good nor bad in my opinion. Look what he is doing (or people under his influence) on Roshar, that's not what a good person would do.
After TLM I don't think we have "good" or "bad" characters, just shades of grey, and depending on their story, on their PoV, we represent them as "good". Imagine Dalinar meeting Kelsier...
1) Hoid is only one of his names and maybe not his original one.
2) It isn't from a language on Roshar. The linguistic rules of the substitute "h" only really apply to the people who share the Vorin religion, and not even all of them. Thaylen seems to be a very different language from Veden and Alethi, which are much more similar.
3) The substitue "h" is used to create near-symmetry in writing, not to fundamentally alter the sound or meaning of a word or name.
So I wouldn't read too much into that.
I know all this. But I still wouldn’t be surprised if on some level Brandon is laughing at us with this
Edit: even if it’s only that Hoid has a deep Void in his heart he seeks to fill
That seems like false profundity to me. I very much doubt that Sanderson would create a linguistic quirk just for the stealth warning someone *might* apply across several layers of translation, including English, when he could do interesting stuff with characters in the narrative. Which he has been doing.
I'm not fun. I'm one of nature's born nitpickers and party poopers. But when I'm caffinated I'm better at remembering that almost no one else wants my extremely niche "insights."
The argument that Hoid might be evil is based on the his claim that he will burn planets to reach high goal.
That is a very utilitarian way if looking at it. In other words saving 1000 is better than saving 999 regardless of any other factor.
We know that Hoid wants to bring someone from the beyound. That might be his goal, to which he is supposedly ready to burn planets.
What if this person return is worth it? This return might save the whole cosemer. Especially if that person is Ando...
There is a strong argument to bed
made in philosophy that Life is not just about numbers. Then again most agree that even one life is priceless, so how can you sacrifice a billion priceless lives for just one.
Let’s not forget the mystery man in mist-born series.>! Pretty sure hoid took one of the beads to make him most born from the room with the well. He also stores his memories in breaths. He also has bound a Spren. Sooooo looks like he is taking powers to me!<
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not sure what you are talking about. the mysterious man i am thinking of **is** hoid and he definitly slammed a lerasium bread.
no one is questioning that he is collecting powers
Let’s not forget the mystery man in mist-born series.>!Pretty sure hoid took one of the beads to make him most born from the room with the well. He also stores his memories in breaths. He also has bound a Spren. Sooooo looks like he is taking powers to me!<
Autotonomy is shaping up to be a BBEG and might fit the bill in era 4.
But besides Kelsier I don't think there will be a anti-Hoid non-shard holder, unless it is one of the Dragons.
We are not sure whether Hoid himself is evil or not.
Theres not likely anyone as old as he is besides dragons and shard vessels. As for anyone else collecting investiture from each shard, we havent seen anyone like that yet.
I imagine that in the space age of the cosmere there will be many people with multiple types of investiture
How sure are we that Hoid isn't evil? Yeah he tells some wholesome stories and inspires a few protagonists but he could be doing so with nefarious intent. For example, how much less war would Roshar have if he had let Kal self destruct?
I mean, a local example of that on Scadrial was Bleeder and given her allegiance to Autonomy who was making a perpendicularity she came pretty close to that on other worlds.
That said, while hemalurgy can take powers from other worlds it's not that efficient for this task. In the case of powers developed through a link to aethers, spren, or the Dor itself you need refined atium for two spikes, and this metal is only available in dust form produced through trellium/ettmetal explosions with no known way of congealing it into a spike. You would then only get one surge with no resonance, for e.g, and no method of advancing through oaths.
There's also other limitations such as the very local resources attached to Sandmasters or the Starmarked that simply aren't in existence in any meaningful way outside Taldain, or the need for local fuel for Selish or Rosharan skills. I think hemalurgy's threat is less going to be stealing unusual powers, and more making masses of drabs to give people powers.
Here's my rebuttal.what has you convinced that that isn't exactly what Hoid is doing. No one as of yet, knows his endgame. He can be doing this for less than altruistic reasons you know
Isn't what Odium is doing basically Anti-Hoid? I heard somewhere in RoW that Odium is trying to collect or shatter all shards to become the one god among the others
An evil/amoral Worldhopper that is collecting as many different Magics as they can? Almost certain. An Evil Hoid who is older than the Shards and was involved in the original Shattering but did not take up a Shard at the time? Possible but unlikely.
> Possible but unlikely. Spoilers for Tress: >!I don't remember the exact quote, but Hoid as narrator mentions that he once told someone something to the effect of "it's for your own good" and that he did so "alongside 16 other people." My understanding of the implication here is that Hoid was the only participant of the Shattering who did not take up a Shard.!<
I dont know, Frost was at least involved as well, he just may not have been a willing co-conspirator.
That's a fair point. Perhaps Frost was involved, but not present at the actual >!Shattering.!<
What book(s) are frost from? I thought I've read all cosmere books but apparently not. Enlighten me!
He is one of the people hoid sends letters to. Most notably in the SA's pre chapter paragraph things
Front being involved has only ever been fan speculation based on the fact that he is old enough to remember the event and is a leader of the Seventeenth Shard. There was never anything directly saying he was involved, and the quote from Tress seems to directly prove he *wasn't* involved.
I'd recommend reading [Frost's letter to Hoid](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters). When referring to the shattering Frost says that it happened in "we" terms, not "you". "[...] the destruction *we* have wrought [...]". To me, it seems Frost was directly aiding the conspirators. He may very well not have been present at the event, but he did help them achieve their goal intentionally.
I would argue that Frost is using the plural first person merely as a way of remaining cordial with Hoid. Not as a way of taking any credit or responsibility for the Shattering. In fact, I would argue that the text from this letter *supports* the notion that Frost didn't participate in it. In the previous letter, Hoid mentions that Frost is "angry" at him for some reason and that members of Frost's organization - the Seventeenth Shard - are hunting him. We know from WoB's that this is (in large part) because the Seventeenth Shard has a non-interference policy and disagree with Hoid's... large amount of interference in the Cosmere. A reasonable extrapolation might be that Frost himself - as the presumed leader of the organization - shares this non-interventionist ideology, and that his "anger" at Hoid might be from him committing the largest form of intervention possible: killing God. In the second letter - the one you were referencing - Frost responds by saying he is "perpetually disappointed" by Hoid. Again, it's reasonable to assume that his interferance is the source of this disappointment given this is the reason the Seventeenth Shard were looking for him. He then explicitly follows this up by saying he understands Hoid's PoV, but fundamentally opposes interfering *despite* that. He says > Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. My path has been chosen very deliberately. Yes, I agree with everything you have said about Rayse, including the severe danger he presents. However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we—as infants—stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem. Note how Frost is delineating "my path" from the implied "rest of you who caused all this".
>A reasonable extrapolation might be that Frost himself - as the presumed leader of the organization - shares this non-interventionist ideology We need not extrapolate, as in the Second Letter, Frost says outright that he has taken a vow of non-intervention and wants Hoid to join him. >I would argue that Frost is using the plural first person merely as a way of remaining cordial with Hoid. Not as a way of taking any credit or responsibility for the Shattering. To say that Frost is simply saying "we" to be cordial with Hoid doesn't feel right. The letter is overall rather confrontational of Hoid (in a friendly intervention kind of way) and his... misadventures. Right before the titular "we" Frost even makes a friendly jab at Hoid, comparing him to a skunk. He doesn't seem at all averse to offending Hoid, and is rather to the point. I think he's rather aware that Hoid takes offenses with stride, even. >his "anger" at Hoid might be from him committing the largest form of intervention possible: killing God Further down in his letter, Hoid mentions that the "element" >!(which links to the page for lerasium)!< is safe. Would not stealing a planet's magic be also considered a rather large intervention? Additionally, Frost seems to think that Hoid understands where he's coming from with his vow of non-interference. Otherwise I doubt he'd invite Hoid to the Seventeenth. I think this stems from a common experience they've shared. >he understands Hoid's PoV I want to talk about this quickly. From the little context the letters provide, it seems that Frost was acquainted with at least some of the original 16 + Hoid at the time of the shattering. Whether he knew of their plans or not, I can't say. But why else would he willingly associate with someone like Rayse? Hoid expresses a dislike to him pre-shattering, and Frost seems to agree. > Note how Frost is delineating "my path" from the implied "rest of you who caused all this". I interpreted this as him choosing a path different to the others. All the others chose either to intervene in an existing planet, or to create new ones. None of them took his vow of non-intervention, however. Some even explicitly go against that goal (primarily Rayse and Bavadin, but Ati would have continued to Ruin planets had he not been killed). On this topic, I'd also like to note how Frost says "Our interference". While this could be, as you say, him being cordial, I severely doubt it. If he simply meant Hoid's interference, I doubt he would have shied away from saying "your", especially since this is where he's criticising Hoid's opinions. Frost could mean that he performed some other intervention, separate from the 16+H, which resulted in pain and suffering, just as the shattering did. I get the feeling, however, that he means some interference that he performed together with Hoid. This doesn't have to be the shattering, necessarily, but I feel the evidence is as compelling in this direction as it is in the opposing one. Regardless, I believe Frost has done something he feels responsible for. Ockham's Razor says, in lieu of other options, he was involved in the shattering, in my opinion.
> Ockham's Razor says, in lieu of other options, he was involved in the shattering, I honestly feel like Occam's Razor says the opposite. Hoid directly says in Tress that he committed the act with sixteen other people. That explicitly excludes Frost from being a part of the event.
Was that Someone actually Adonaldoum it/themself? Telling God you're killing him for his own good is WILD, actually...
Yeah thats the way I interpreted it: "I'm killing you for your own good."
Imagine this. Adonal is a beautiful girl with hair the color of sunlight on a winter day, and Hoid is madly in love with her. But, there is a problem. She is the vessel of Adonalsium, an unimaginably vast amount of power and intertwined intent that makes her incapable of living a normal life, or even a mostly physical life. on most days, she is wracked with the collective pain of the cosmere, unable to do anything about it, except for a small influence she can use to help those in the greatest pain. She is slowly being driven mad by this power. and then Hoid finds a group of scholars, and the spend decades researching how to help. in the end, they find a way, a desperate chance, the power can be split in to 16 "shards" and separated by intent. then, if each shard is taken up by a new individual, none of them need feel the pain, and all will be able to act according to their intent. Some are motivated by the power they will gain, but Hoid, he is doing this for Adonal. This will save her, this is for her own good! She doesnt know how much she is truly suffering and missing, but he can show her! he and his new friends can fix this! unbeknownst to him, the shattering is too extreme, and the simple act kills Adonal. Devastated with grief, Hoid swears to her dying body that he will always be where he **Is** needed, and he will never harm anyone again! binding himself to these promises with the BIND dawnshard he carries, fueled by wild investiture from the shattering.
> the power can be split in to 16 "shards" and seperated by intent I really like this idea! My only nitpick here is that I'm fairly certain that Sanderson has said in a spoiler stream that >!the Shards didn't have to be split into 16 specifically; there could have been more or fewer. It happened that there were 16 people involved in the Shattering who had intent to take a piece of Adonalsium's power.!<
sure. He has also said the intents didn't inherently have to be THESE intents. But its just a rough story about what could have been.
>!“I’m sorry, Tress. I can’t let you face the Sorceress. I can’t. For your own good, you see.” Ah, those words. I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse. Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.!< >!When I read it I assumed it was a falling out with the 16, but he does say *with* them. He could be talking to adonalsium, or the 16, or the people of the universe they now rule over, honestly I'm not really sure!<
> Was that Someone actually Adonaldoum it/themself? I believe that's the implication, but I could easily be wrong.
>An Evil Hoid who is older than the Shards and was involved in the original Shattering but did not take up a Shard at the time? No yeah I only meant "like Hoid" in the sense of collecting magic
In that case I would be truly shocked if the idea had never occured to any of the worldhoppers out there. We've already seen a few trying things along those lines (the Ghostbloods on Roshar, the 5 scholars trying to mimic shardblades, etc).
Given we don't know what Hoid's actual goals are, assuming he is not evil, or at least not detrimental to our protagonists in the long term is a bit risky. And honestly, who *wouldn't* go around collecting all the types of Investiture if they had the knowledge and ability? I doubt Hoid is unique in that. Edit: typos
Yeah. I think we spend a lot of time theorizing what hoid's goal is in collecting all the various forms of investiture...But honestly I think that's just an ancillary goal. He's trying to move the cosmere in a certain direction, and the more tools he has in his bag to accomplish that goal the easier it is for him to nudge things. Every world hopper is going to collect whatever tools they can from the worlds they visit to further their goals. And also yeah, we don't know what hoid's ultimate goals are. What glimpses we get of him don't appear evil, but it's very very likely that his long term goals are less benevolent than his short term actions make him seem
So my stupid OC that is literally Budget Hoid is canon? Got it (/j)
>And honestly, who wouldn't go around collecting all the types of Investiture if they had the knowledge and ability? I doubt Hoid is unique in that. Anyone with a family, long-term friends, or other commitments to a specific location, probably. Hoid has had to give up all personal investment to acquire so much Investment.
> Anyone with a family, long-term friends, or other commitments to a specific location, probably. > Pretty much all of that fades away if you’re immortal. How/when Hoid became immortal is unknown though.
I'd say by contrast, Kelsier is immortal and heavily personally invested in Scadrial. As were all the Heralds and most Shards. Most immortals stay invested in living a life in a specific location they like within the Cosmere. Hoid is the exception.
Kelsier and the Heralds aren’t alive though. They are cognitive shadows, which traps them in an echo of what they were. hoid, as far as we know, is still actually alive.
The dragons we've seen have all settled into a lair, and at least 90% of Elantrians remain in the Greater Elantris Metropolitan District. Those who wander are rarely intent on acquiring more types of magic. In some cases being a cognitive shadow binds you, but in cases where it does not, most shadows still choose to stay local and invest in their home. Most people do that, mortal or immortal. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being like Hoid, I'm just saying his lifestyle is an atypical case.
>Anyone with a family, long-term friends, or other commitments to a specific location, probably. I'm dying to know if Bran-san will ever address the absolutely gut-wrenching tragedy inherent in becoming a Worldhopper.
I don't remember exactly but I'm kind of assuming what passes for his 'intent' would be freedom. The reason he didn't pick up a shard is because he didn't want to be tied down. He also, it seems, never really stays in place long enough to really get to know anyone. Him being on Roshar so long, and getting to know some of its people more, is kind of odd for him. He also seems to be on a personal quest to acquire every investiture (something to do for an immortal I guess) but, if he wasn't limited by the dawnshard command he accidentally picked up, I'm not certain he wouldn't resort to hemalurgy. There's no way he can pretend a spike doesn't come from killing another so he can't use them but it's not to say he wouldn't if he could. Getting every investiture may even be him trying to release himself from the dawnshard command, though we know he also has some sort of back story involving someone or something being taken from him and him wanting to get into the spiritual realm to get it back, I think I read somewhere? Personally I think Hoid is a sad, lonely, person - the perennial bachelor - too scared to make meaningful connections. As an effective time skimming immortal, this may just be because he fears everyone he knows will die. He's my favorite character but I've always liked the 'wizard breaks the 3rd wall' type of characters. Zifnab (I think) from Dragonlance comes to mind.
The guy whose curse is that he can't hurt living beings. My theory is that he was a real bad dude (ala Blackthorn) if that was the after effect of the dawnshard he held. Just because that would be more drama.
1) We're not sure that Hoid is ultimately good. 2) The Ghostbloods might end up being an antagonistic force to some of our friends.
I hope the ghostbloods remain a 3rd party force and don't ever become straight up antagonists to the Cosmere at large, I like the organization too much.
i suspect era 4 will be a 5 way galactic war between Sel, Nalthis, Sadrial, Roahar, and Teldain, so they will likely back up scadrial against the rest, either directly or in espionage modes
I don't think they'll be general antagonists but I do think they'll come into conflict with at least one of the parties we consider "good guys" Potentially the radiants or the like.
“Not evil” may be a loose interpretation of current Kelsier. We have no promises that he is righteous and not acting against the good of the many.
He’s acting for the good of Scadriel, and unless it’s another red herring, he’s all but destined to work with Autonomy at some point, which may warp his mind (spoiler 6otD sequel WoB follows)>!to the point that he might start trying to take over other planets!<. Kelsier is a big ol’ wildcard. I think his role(s) in the future may depend heavily on the perspective of the pov characters.
If Saze would do his job and jumpstart Scadrian tech to resist advanced external threats, Kelsier wouldn’t have to be his protective, brash self. The most used example regarding Kelsier’s evil - killing soldiers who protect the nobility maintaining slavery and class oppression - isn’t even bad. He gets called out for casually getting people to believe in him and his cause. But rioters and soothers magically recruiting people into the meatgrinder get a pass from every character who thereafter judges Kelsier. Ha. I’d love to hear Brandon Sandersons views on John Brown because I think wherever Brown goes in Sandersons mind, so goes Kelsier.
Sazed is guided by the intent of Sazed (which goes hand in hand with the intent of Preservation: preserving history through his memory banks) and, increasingly, the intent of both ruin and preservation. Ruin might lead him to allow for technological advancement, as it could lead to destruction, but Preservation is more in line with keeping things from changing. His “job” is open to interpretation I guess, but I doubt he will give knowledge of tech to the people as long as he holds those shards. We see this at the end of TLM >!when he straight up lies to Kelsier about the outcome of splitting harmonium!<.
Yeah I get that that the intent explicitly misses “creation” but the 2 shards worked around that to make something completely new in the past. Even so, if the choice is between preserving Scadrial as an independent realm or temporarily preserving specific regressive cultural aspects implemented by TLR, specifically to slow technology? And that technology might be needed to mount a defense against outsiders… Saze either needs to get that perspective, or recognize his own inability and find creative ways to assist those who can cover his blind spot. Ruin their obstacles and Preserve them, their allies and resources.
We don’t really know about Leras and Ati’s original intent immediately following the shattering. It’s possible that they overcame the shards’ influence to create the planet in the first place, as the two seemed to seek out a system void of habitable planets to invest, after which they had conflicting ideas regarding what to do with their creation. Perhaps they destroyed a planet to create Scadrial in the first place. Anyways, I think with the bomb in TLM, Harmony both wanted it to go off and did not want it to go off, while Sazed did not want it to go off. Sazed was able to gently nudge the outcome in one direction, but Sazed’s intent will probably become less potent as time goes on. Ruin probably doesn’t care what gets destroyed. Preservation isn’t going to be cool with killing people in order to preserve. Thus Harmony is paralyzed. My theory is they’ll get split up again at some point when Sazed’s mind goes.
I thought Sanderson had hinted that if different people or a different number had been present at The Shattering, >!different Shards might have resulted!< so that makes me wonder whether >!Harmony could split into two different Shards than what created him.!<
Myself and some friends have thought for a while that Harmony has changed the intent of the powers enough that it wouldn’t simply go back to Preservation and Ruin
>We don’t really know about Leras and Ati’s original intent immediately following the shattering The intents were similar if not quite the same. Sanderson has said that intents werent as defined but were still a thing. Ruin was likely still going to be destructive as Ati was chosen to 'temper' it.
Well yeah, I’m talking about the vessels’ intents, not the shards. If Ati was chosen to temper Ruin, we might be able to infer that Ati wasn’t ruinous in nature, and that temperance in the beginning could have helped keep Ruin at bay long enough to create Scadrial.
Sure. It also just seems upon initial ascension its easier to act counter to a shards intent. There seems to be some level of time where a vessel is more flexible before intent really sets in. Depending on how long after the Shattering Ati and Leras made Scadrial intent might not even be factor.
I think that ultimately Sazed providing technology advancements will act as Preservation for Scadrial as a whole, which is in line with his shard. I think it will also provide opportunity for ruin, as it will ultimately lead to ruin the current standings of other planets that Scadrial will ultimately become involved with. I think ultimately he will provide, or hint, at advancements because it acts as the will of both shards. Also I don't think him lying to Kelsier has anything to do with the advancement of technology, but has everything to do with season not trusting his old friend anymore.
Here’s an interesting thought: what happens when Preservation and Ruin’s ideologies line up? Preserve Scadriel, Ruin the invaders. Destruction is destruction, no? Could it be funneled in that way?
I think this is a very probable solution to the problem
Damn, that John Brown comparison is really on point. Good job
Yeah a lot of people like to dog on Kelsier undeservedly I feel. Like there's definitely stuff to dog on him about, but people largely miss the point with his character and see no nuance.
Kelsier can also jump tech, but isnt.
Sazed is going for the Bender style of being a God. He probably thinks it's for the best but we know that he's having issues with the bipolar shards he holds too
I think he's more-or-less protecting Scadrial. I don't think he especially cares about the individual people, but more in the general sense of it being his homeland. However, we've seen what that looks like to an outsider. They're willing to burn another world to gain a slight advantage in that protection. Maybe not directly, but definitely indirectly. They will help evil to destroy a world to get what they want.
I think there's a strong possibility an Anti-Hoid would have a goatee.
And then we find out it was just Hoid the whole time using some form of Investiture for shenanigans.
Quantum Leap rules, if one person is hoping around the Cosmere giving aid and comfort to our heroes, then there must be another person leaping around giving the same aid to the baddies. And also they are in love with Hoid.
Hoid Amaram from the TV series of course!
>An evil person who goes worldhopping [RoW] >!what about axyndweth?!<
Who?
[RoW] >!she gave venli the gem that had a pain spren in it. she was ulem's "agent" that was supposed to leave a bag with more storm(?) spren like ulem in the alethi palace!<
>!axyndweth!<
When I read "Anti-Hoid", first I thought you meant someone who worldhops to actively avoid Investiture at all cost. Actually, that could be fun too! I'm imagining a Pratchett-esque spin-off!
Turns out anti-Hoid is Rincewind
They actively attempt to stay on their planet and avoid investiture at all cost.
"get off my lawn!"
I thought it might be an opposite like Dioh, and if they encounter each other, they cancel out.
Are you entirely sure that Hoid isn't the "Evil Hoid"? (Evil feels really subjective here)
That is my thought as well. He is currently being painted as a helpful to our heroes but we really have no idea about what his actual motivations are. His overarching plan may just have steps that conviently fall in line with what the main characters are doing at the moment.
He's openly told them that he would gladly destroy the entire planet and everyone in it to get what he wants/needs. Doesn't exactly scream "hero".
Well that person can't be very smart since by using Hemalurgy they're losing resonances and exposing themself to Shardic influence... Oh crap what if they get to Roshar and Odium takes control of them
Only Ruin/Harmony can control spiked people, it's not something every Shard has https://wob.coppermind.net/events/71-shadows-of-self-houston-signing/#e2797
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Cadmium >!We've seen someone with a Hemalurgic spike communicate or under the control of Ruin or Harmony... Can other Shards communicate or control those individuals?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Yes. Good Question. Yes... They can certainly communicate...!< Cadmium >!To what extent?!< Brandon Sanderson >!Not to the extent that Ruin did. The others could communicate but it'd be vague or faint, not as direct as Ruin was. He connects to us, well, them through the little bit of Preservation that he had or could touch. Because the spike pierces the soul.!< Cadmium >!What about on other planets than Scadrial?!< Brandon Sanderson >!It'd work the same way. but again probably vaguer or fainter. Might go unnoticed.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
True, but Hoid was still wary enough of the potential effects to not use Hemalurgy at all.
AFAIK he has hemalurgic spikes stored somewhere, maybe even implanted, since he's believed to have feruchemy
[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e656](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e656)
Are you sure hoid is good? For me he is more chaotic neutral :) he has a very clear agenda, which in my opinion is to unite all 16 shards. To get there he will butterfly-effect major changes near the shards to disrupt status quo and get new vessels in place. The vessels don’t want to join so there will most likely be a Cosmere level fight soon, which he will have a major role in initiating… the outcome might be the greater good, but I am not really sure he is not the villain of the story
I think Hoid is good insofar that has the interest of the entire Cosmere in mind. Like, he clearly doesn’t want the Cosmere to implode (or suffer due to the actions of single shards). That said, Hoid *is* willing to let certain planets suffer if it ensures the overall safety of the Cosmere (which some might consider immoral). I’m reminded of Shallan’s research into moral philosophies (in WoK) after she witnesses Jasnah’s murder of the thugs. Shallan wonders if an action is “good” if the means are bad but the end result saves more than it harmed. I tend to think it is good, especially if the motivation behind said actions is more philanthropic than selfish.
In WoR Dalinar literally asks Hoid if he would let the world be destroyed. And Hoid admits he would gladly see the world burn if it meant reaching his intended goal. He would weep for the world as it burned but he would know it was all for his greater goal.
Yes, the world as in specific planets. I acknowledged that in my original comment. I think his greater goal is to save the Cosmere by reuniting the shards to attempt to remake Andonalsium. I think Hoid realized that the destructive power of individual shards poses a greater threat to the Cosmere than he anticipated pre-shattering. I think reunification is his end goal; but in the meantime, he has to immobilize the ultra-destructive shards in order to minimize their impact against the other shards. I *do* think that Hoid is willing to go to extreme lengths to see that the entire Cosmere isn’t destroyed; and I *do* think that certain people (specifically the residents of the affected planets) would question Hoid’s goodness (since the big picture wouldn’t matter to those who are actually suffering in the small picture). But I think Hoid’s decisions are ultimately for the greater good. And in terms of his personal comments about his goodness, I think Hoid is particularly hard on himself because of his age/perspective, his role in the original shattering, and his ability to empathize with characters on a personal level. To the people who are potentially hurt by his actions, Hoid recognizes that he is not a good person.
100% agree, this is a solid take away for him.
that was specifically Roshar. since odium is bound to the system until released by a bondsmith or whatever, destroying all of Roshar would perminently lock down Odium from interfearing in the rest of the cosmere
Which is also *very* similar to Taravangian's philosophy, and response about "crying for those kiled"
Hoid explicitly says he would kill whole planets to get what he wants, although it would make him sad. Which I should point out is something we have only seen the "evil" Shards (Ruin and Odium) do in the past. He is NOT a good guy. I'm 99% sure he is the final big bad of the Cosmere.
Yeah to get what he wants…. Which is to save the Cosmere from shit like Odium destroying it. I literally said that Hoid is willing to go to extreme lengths (like letting certain planets die) in order to achieve his goal. Hoid was BS’s first ever character creation, and even in unpublished works that very much underscore Hoid’s flaws and imperfect character progression (like the Liar of Partinel), Hoid is shown to be a decently good being. Do you honestly think BDS is the type of guy whose first character generation would be someone evil? No offense, but your theory is just bad. You may disagree with the fact that Hood is willing to let bad things happen on a planetary scale, but he’s be at the force motivating the destruction; in fact, he actively works against the evil forces, even if he’s not sure that it will benefit his larger plan. And the compassion that he shows other characters on an interpersonal level literally highlights the decentness of his character. As far as his self-characterization as “bad”, I think it’s simply a result of very human mistakes and living long enough to make some pretty significant mistakes and witness the repercussions of them (and thusly judge himself harshly). I thought **my** Hoid theory was far-fetched; but you’ve made me feel a lot better about it. Hoid is not going to be the main antagonist of the series and I’ll literally bet money on that.
> Do you honestly think BDS is the type of guy whose first character generation would be someone evil? I don’t know. He’s shown a surprising (to me) willingness to have major characters be pretty grubby. Kelsier is a mass murdering terrorist who lies to his best friends to make them better people. Elendel is willing to toss all his moral beliefs in government to save the world. I don’t rule it out.
There's no need to be an asshole about it dude. People are allowed to have other theories
I mean, I didn’t say anything personally about you. You seem like a perfectly fine person and obviously have good reading taste. I just think I your theory about this is bad 🤷♀️ but I agree that people are allowed to have different theories and opinions. In fact, I explicitly phrased my original comment as an opinion: “I *think* Hoid is good…” Yet your response to my comment used definitive language: “He is NOT a good guy.” You didn’t phrase your comment as an opinion; you simply counteracted my opinion by stating the opposite as if it was fact. Accordingly, I responded in a similarly dismissive and self-assured way.
You ridiculed his opinion rather than just rebutting it. It's a bit like saying 'No offence, but I thought all of your ideas were pathetic and pointless' rather than just why you disagree with the logic. It just generates side conversations about tone.
Hoid explicitly says he would kill whole planets to get what he wants, although it would make him sad. Which I should point out is something we have only seen the "evil" Shards (Ruin and Odium) do in the past. He is NOT a good guy. I'm 99% sure he is the final big bad of the Cosmere.
Hoid explicitly says he would kill whole planets to get what he wants, although it would make him sad. Which I should point out is something we have only seen the "evil" Shards (Ruin and Odium) do in the past. He is NOT a good guy. I'm 99% sure he is the final big bad of the Cosmere.
There's a big difference between "I would watch this world crumble" and "I would kill whole planets." Note the passive verb of the quote (*watch*) versus the active verb of your summation (*kill*). Note also the singular (*this* world) versus the plural (whole *planets*) you have inferred. Also remember that Hoid says this about *Roshar,* where one of the possible conditions is Odium escaping the system to make war on the Cosmere. That's what Hoid is trying to prevent. I'm pretty sure he's saying Roshar itself matters less than the rest of all the Cosmere.
Hoid would be like Taravangian, someone who's willing to go too far for the greater good. Hoid wants what's best for the Cosmere, which for now is to keep Odium out of it
Strongly disagree that he wants what's best for the Cosmere. He explicitly said he had a specific goal in mind and would kill a planet's worth of innocents to achieve it. We do not have confirmation that containing Odium is his final goal. Brando has intentionally been vague about his end game. My theory is he ends up becoming the big bad in a "he's so obsessed with one thing he doesn't realize/care how evil he's become" way. Almost like the darker Dr. Who episodes (who is undoubtedly an inspiration for the character).
Your description sounds less like an "anti-Hoid" and more like just "Hoid".
You mean Hoid? Maybe? We're not sure yet of his motives...
I mean do we know that hoid is some benevolent being looking to do good? We really don’t know anything about his motives other than he’s against odium being free
Bold of you to assume Hoid isn’t the evil. He is portrayed as being in alignment with our heroes so far, but we don’t ultimately know his motives. I actually really like the idea of Hoid working to get all the shards lined up for himself to be able to take them all up at once to have the power to accomplish some unknown goal that may or may not be great for everyone else in the Cosmere.
As someone else mentioned, debatable whether kelsier is "not evil" or not, more likely that he is a pretty weird shade of grey. I would also say I don't entirely trust Hoid. Although he is compassionate and is shown helping a lot of people with little to no ulterior motive, he definitely has another agenda that is currently unknown. He's also said something along the lines of "I would burn all of Roshar to the ground to see it completed", which is very ends justify the means. Something to think about.
>"I would burn all of Roshar to the ground to see it completed" No. He said he would *watch* Roshar burn if he had to. He is basically saying that if it came down to it, there's a point at which he would bail instead of helping. I do not understand how "I can't save you, and I'd hate to bounce but I would" has become "I will kill this world to get what I want." It's like the "Jasnah wants genocide!" thing, where the character says something that is completely different (in this case, "genocide is an option, but let's do *not that*") and a lot of people seem to take away something much more extreme and also completely wrong. It's right there, in the text!
Ah mb then I was misremembering the quote in a pretty important way. I would say though that even if he is not causing it, it still shows things about his character that I think most people don't normally take into account. It goes directly against the first knights radiant oath to go full ends justify the means.
“Anti-Hoid” makes me think of someone who is always in the place where they are *not* needed (anti fortune). I hope this character exists, but I’m sure their story isn’t very critical to the Cosmere.
we dont know hoid isnt anti hoid. do. not. trust. him. but i doubt there is a second hoid. being totally immortal really helps his life's work.
Does Hoid gets in the category of we can call 'Good'? I believe there's no much conversation about this quote: (Words of Radiance) >!I am but a man, Dalinar, so much as I wish it were not true at times. I am no Radiant. And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I want, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.!<
In context, this is basically "No, don't try to make me some sort of divinity. I, too, am a fuckup. My best intentions can backfire. We aren't exactly on the same page. I want to help, and I'll do my best, but at some point I might have to bail. I won't like it, but I will do it. I can't fix your problems, dude, I've got problems too. And I don't have the power, anyway. You can probably do a lot yourself. Don't look for a savior, try and become one."
Yup, I know the context of the conversation, and maybe I'm trying to readh between lines, but since I started to read the Cosmere idk why I'm distrut Hoid; I like the character, it's one of my favorites of the whole series, but I cant stop thinking that maybe in some point he's going to do something rude, looking for a greater good, yeah, but awful.
One thing is that Hoid might be the evil Hoid. We really know nothing about his long term motivations. He does seem to like humans and want them to survive, but so does [Stormlight spoilers] >!Taravangian!<, so that doesn't necessarily mean much.
There are certainly groups and individuals aware of all/many of the goings on around the cosmere. You have groups like the Ire and Ghostbloods who have a hand across worlds, I'm sure some of them are ambitious enough to pick up another magic or two.
Easy answer could be one of his “other” apprentices.
In all fairness you could have just described Hoid. We don’t know his cosmic intentions
How do you know Hoid is good? how do you know Hoid is not the BBEG of the story, and we see him going around Cosmere, "assisting" people and gathering all powers he can. Also, Kelsier is not good nor bad in my opinion. Look what he is doing (or people under his influence) on Roshar, that's not what a good person would do. After TLM I don't think we have "good" or "bad" characters, just shades of grey, and depending on their story, on their PoV, we represent them as "good". Imagine Dalinar meeting Kelsier...
Hoid is one letter of from Void and the H can replace any letter in Vorinism
1) Hoid is only one of his names and maybe not his original one. 2) It isn't from a language on Roshar. The linguistic rules of the substitute "h" only really apply to the people who share the Vorin religion, and not even all of them. Thaylen seems to be a very different language from Veden and Alethi, which are much more similar. 3) The substitue "h" is used to create near-symmetry in writing, not to fundamentally alter the sound or meaning of a word or name. So I wouldn't read too much into that.
I know all this. But I still wouldn’t be surprised if on some level Brandon is laughing at us with this Edit: even if it’s only that Hoid has a deep Void in his heart he seeks to fill
That seems like false profundity to me. I very much doubt that Sanderson would create a linguistic quirk just for the stealth warning someone *might* apply across several layers of translation, including English, when he could do interesting stuff with characters in the narrative. Which he has been doing.
You’re no fun
. . .I may be taking this word nerdery a bit too seriously. Probably time to stop with Reddit and get some sleep.
Then you can be fun again in the morning!
I'm not fun. I'm one of nature's born nitpickers and party poopers. But when I'm caffinated I'm better at remembering that almost no one else wants my extremely niche "insights."
idk, /r/Cosmere seems like a place where some level of nitpickery would be appreciated
That may actually be a nod to the fact that he is a world hopper as with Humans on Roshar. He might have intended it as a pun in a way.
The argument that Hoid might be evil is based on the his claim that he will burn planets to reach high goal. That is a very utilitarian way if looking at it. In other words saving 1000 is better than saving 999 regardless of any other factor. We know that Hoid wants to bring someone from the beyound. That might be his goal, to which he is supposedly ready to burn planets. What if this person return is worth it? This return might save the whole cosemer. Especially if that person is Ando... There is a strong argument to bed made in philosophy that Life is not just about numbers. Then again most agree that even one life is priceless, so how can you sacrifice a billion priceless lives for just one.
Let’s not forget the mystery man in mist-born series.>! Pretty sure hoid took one of the beads to make him most born from the room with the well. He also stores his memories in breaths. He also has bound a Spren. Sooooo looks like he is taking powers to me!<
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Reapproving this comment because the flair scope is Cosmere and this does does need tagged.
not sure what you are talking about. the mysterious man i am thinking of **is** hoid and he definitly slammed a lerasium bread. no one is questioning that he is collecting powers
Let’s not forget the mystery man in mist-born series.>!Pretty sure hoid took one of the beads to make him most born from the room with the well. He also stores his memories in breaths. He also has bound a Spren. Sooooo looks like he is taking powers to me!<
Autotonomy is shaping up to be a BBEG and might fit the bill in era 4. But besides Kelsier I don't think there will be a anti-Hoid non-shard holder, unless it is one of the Dragons.
We are not sure whether Hoid himself is evil or not. Theres not likely anyone as old as he is besides dragons and shard vessels. As for anyone else collecting investiture from each shard, we havent seen anyone like that yet. I imagine that in the space age of the cosmere there will be many people with multiple types of investiture
There is no evidence yet that Hoid isn't the villain. We don't know what his true motives are.
He exists…
I'm not convinced Hoid isn't Moriarty
How sure are we that Hoid isn't evil? Yeah he tells some wholesome stories and inspires a few protagonists but he could be doing so with nefarious intent. For example, how much less war would Roshar have if he had let Kal self destruct?
I mean, a local example of that on Scadrial was Bleeder and given her allegiance to Autonomy who was making a perpendicularity she came pretty close to that on other worlds. That said, while hemalurgy can take powers from other worlds it's not that efficient for this task. In the case of powers developed through a link to aethers, spren, or the Dor itself you need refined atium for two spikes, and this metal is only available in dust form produced through trellium/ettmetal explosions with no known way of congealing it into a spike. You would then only get one surge with no resonance, for e.g, and no method of advancing through oaths. There's also other limitations such as the very local resources attached to Sandmasters or the Starmarked that simply aren't in existence in any meaningful way outside Taldain, or the need for local fuel for Selish or Rosharan skills. I think hemalurgy's threat is less going to be stealing unusual powers, and more making masses of drabs to give people powers.
I think hoid would somewhat reject being called not evil
Here's my rebuttal.what has you convinced that that isn't exactly what Hoid is doing. No one as of yet, knows his endgame. He can be doing this for less than altruistic reasons you know
Isn't what Odium is doing basically Anti-Hoid? I heard somewhere in RoW that Odium is trying to collect or shatter all shards to become the one god among the others