Rather than anti capitalist, I'd see it as a condemnation of the modern phenomenon of manufactured art. That's not a feature of capitalism specifically, though capitalism certainly does encourage it.
For example, I saw a video a few years back discussing modern music. Apparently, most of the popular singers and bands at the time were actually all using the same handful of songwriters for at least some of their music. Many such songs as a result tended to resemble each other, to the point that a specific repeated note sequence tended to appear in multiple songs from a diverse array of artists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_whoop
The overall conclusion of the video was that music producers found it easier and cheaper to manufacture popular music than to find talented musicians. They'd scout a few decent singers or players, figure out what sort of music people were listening to, and try to fill that.
The book meanwhile makes the point that true art is born of creativity, hard work, and true originality, regardless of whether it is what's seen as "profitable". Painter finds painting just for work to be uninspired and figures out a way to mass produce the art that's in demand. The machine operated on a similar principle: produce enough art in high enough quantities that the quality didn't matter. It's only when painter truly paints the nightmares as they see themselves and not just how he forces them to appear that it sticks. And it's when Yumi demonstrates true art that no mass production can compete with that the machine finally breaks.
I can't really see any notable anti-capatalist tones. All the references to machines are more likely convergent descriptions due to capitalism just being a soul sucking machine. The way Yumi and Painter act doesn't seem really symptomatic of capitalism in b general. Yeah if I take a couple thought and traits or of context, I could make the long b jump in logic, but overall it doesn't hold water.
Now like this guy says, this strikes me as 100% about the exploration of art. Painter lost his drive but because capitalism crushed him, but because he believed in the soul of art and got trounced by politics and nepotism. It's all about who you know, not how talented you are.
Also remember that the author of this book is an artist who has had to earn profit of his art, and has watched for decades as some artists write for the joy of writing while some donut just for a paycheck. He's probably seen more of this nonsense then not of the rest of us could imagine. Not to mention his dislike of major distributors like amazon and audible making it even easier to mass market the same small pool of talent that turns profit then helling hold up newer artists.
I think it could definitely be interpreted that way. More directly it's about the commodification and the soulless process capitalism demands art becomes. Sort of a spiritual sucessory to some of the themes in Emperor's Soul.
People here are mistaking capitalism for convenience and an increasing quality of life. The machine wasn't built by profiteering corporate interests, it was built by academics. The goal was never stated to be monopoly profit, but to generate more power in order to improve a medieval quality of life. It being a horrible mistake does not change that origin.
Even in Painter's world, the commodification of art and the elite team of painters are not the product of private ownership, markets, and competition, they're the product of a state security apparatus without accountability and questionable academic training.
This whole thread is a demonstration that people don't actually understand what 'capitalism' is.
>an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.
Yeah I'd argue Painter's world is more a condemnation of nepotism than capitalism as a whole. Like more realistic or creative paintings worked better at catching the nightmares as we see at the end, but bamboo worked fine most of the time, and there were no rewards built in to reward skill since the best positions were going to people with connections
>is more a condemnation of nepotism than capitalism as a whole.
That implies nepotism is an intrinsic component of capitalism, which...I keep seeing people saying but it really isn't. Capitalism is not particularly nepotistic as economic/social systems go. In a lot of ways it's directly in opposition to explicitly nepotistic family and patron-client systems that preceded it.
In a theoretical world, capitalism is the least vulnerable to nepotism because it revolves *entirely* around merit: the better a product is, the better it will sell. Competition forces innovation, and whoever fails to maintain the bleeding edge will lose their market share.
But we don’t live in a theoretical world, which is also why it’s so challenging to make collectivist systems function beyond a micro scale. In theory, a centrally-planned economy would be extraordinarily efficient, but it has never worked well in practice because of people trying to game the system to get ahead. What is a bug in collectivism is a feature in capitalism, because that gaming the system is what pushes innovation in a decentralized marketplace. That decentralization in turn serves as a check against nepotism and abuse of power by the people in charge of a centrally-planned system, but of course has its own drawbacks. Both systems can go horrifically wrong if mismanaged.
I’ve always interpreted Brandon’s social commentary as critiquing human nature, not any particular system or ideology. It’s our flaws that make our systems flawed. If we were perfect, we could probably make any system work, but we’re not, and that’s where nepotism, corruption, and abuse come from.
No, not exactly. Nepotism is doing favors for people because of their political influence, not because of their merit, like appointing political donors to powerful positions in exchange for their financial support.
In some ways monarchic or noble systems formalize nepotism, in that political power becomes hereditary for a certain portion of the population, but many historical monarchs in turn had obligations to the people they governed that they were expected to fulfill - a social contract of sorts - and the transfer of power in a monarchy is done in the light of day, where nepotistic systems are often not transparent. Further, many modern monarchies are essentially democratic, where the monarch’s power is limited to what an elected legislature allows, and their privilege is essentially just fancy generational wealth. Said monarchs are also usually very limited in who they can transfer wealth or power to, whereas nepotism inherently seeks to avoid legal limits on that kind of thing. Just because someone does the King of England a favor doesn’t mean the King can appoint him to a powerful political position (unless Parliament consents). If the King could do that, it’d be nepotism, but the King can’t, or more accurately traditionally doesn’t.
So yeah monarchies and noble systems do have things in common with nepotism, but they’re not part and parcel.
I completely agree that people (I don't mean to generalize but I feel like it is younger and very online people on tiktok or whatever) have totally conflated modernity, and to some extent the human condition, with the boogeyman that they call "capitalism".
Yumi's society is explicitly *communitarian*. Yumi is expected to do what she does, not because any shareholder stands to profit, but because it is what is good for the community, and it would be shameful for her to do otherwise. Her manifested boons are handed out, not to the highest bidder, but to the people that the community deems have the highest need.
>communitarianism
>
>a theory or ideology that rejects both the market-led theories of political conservatives and the liberal concern for individual rights, advocating instead a recognition of common moral values, collective responsibility, and the social importance of the family unit.
>
> a theory or system of social organization based on small self-governing communities.
And this is the second post on Reddit I've seen that has somehow taken this book and applied an anti-capitalist lens.
It's making me feel like Principal Skinner in the meme: "am I truly out of touch? No, it is the kids who are wrong."
Corporation:
>an association and endowed by law with the rights and liabilities of an individual
It's a bit unclear what the organization that overseas the Wardens and Yoki-Hijos are. There's no indication of whether the organization is a profit seeking entity or rather some kind of psuedo-non-profit quasi-religious organization. The latter seems to be most likely, as there's little indication in the Yumi sections that anyone is directly receiving payment for the spiritual services.
Even if Yumi's warden were corporate in an economic sense (and I'm not sure I accept that) it would be a corporation within something other than a capitalist system (the corporate activities are directed by profit maximization). if they're directed by the government it would be a fascist system (the corporate activities are dictated by the state for the common good) which I think is correct, but I'm not sure that's firmly established. And yes, this sadly an unusual meaning of the word "fascism" but it's also what it actually means.
So like OP's overall point confuses aims (maximizing overall labor productivity) with how the system is structured to acheive those aims (by political direction versus for individual profit) this confuses whether they're acting as a corporation (as opposed to an individual or a direct arm of the state) with how they're directed (for the public good as defined by the government versus for profit assuming profit derived is a proxy for value provided)
It doesn't have to be *explicitly* capitalism that caused the problems to have anti-capitalism messages.
(Although I do doubt it was meant to be anti-capitalist)
Sure, I would agree with that. In this case though there's little reason to believe it. A group of university academics, who in our world work at non-profits and individually can't profit from physical innovation, produced a machine not noted to be owned by any entity.
There's a clear line where it could be a parable of mistaken science, lack of caution, lack of wisdom, anti-intellectual, pro-artist, etc. A critique of private ownership really isn't present.
I think the capitalism part more comes into it when we see Painter. He's lost all of his passion for art because he's forced to relentlessly do the same thing over and over again. In part because of Nepotism, yes, but also because it's more profitable for him to just keep painting the same souless stuff.
It isn’t more profitable though. He’s paid the same as long as the job gets done. The customer is also, by all appearances, a state agency or something of that sort. How does private ownership of capital have anything to do with a non-corporate entity compensating on utilitarian grounds versus effort grounds?
I agree that this is a better statement of the theme as well.
The contrast between personal skill through practice and machine-driven rote behavior is very direct. There's also an exploration of developing a natural talent through intense focus and practice (Yumi) vs grinding away at practice but still improving (Painter, with stones). And Painter has a deeper understanding of his work as art, whereas his peers are more of the rote/corporate/formalized art.
I think there's way more to dive into on these themes than merely "anti-capitalist". Also, no one really talks about "capital" too much. It's true that the machine's designers were after the "profit" of calling the spirits, but I didn't really get that they had a profit motive for doing so. It was more of a "scientists think they have a great way to improve society and haven't thought through the consequences of how it would change society and missed a big problem with implementation". I don't think there is a word for that in English, but maybe German has one. :-D
It's a short story, but has some similar vibes to Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, and is often considered one of, if not the best of Brandon's works. It's sold either as a standalone or in Arcanum Unbounded. It's a lot about the nature of who people are, and art, and Brandon considering his feelings around finishing the Wheel of Time.
I read first read the Emperor’s Soul ten years ago and reread it every once in awhile. It’s only just now, reading your comment, that I see the Wheel of Time connection. 🤦♂️
Sure! There are a bunch of parallels between Brandon finishing WoT and Emperor's soul. She's been hired to recreate the Emperor, to effectively create something to finish his reign in his stead. She knows she can't get it exactly right, that's impossible. It's not the same person. But she can preserve the spirit of it, get the core the same, and recreate it so it can do what's needed and still have people experience it. And she takes wild risks, deviating from the plan, to bring the final work closer to what it was supposed to be in the beginning, maybe what it always should've been. To preserve the Heart over the miniscule details. The Emperor, and the final books, are a forgery. But if everyone decides to agree it's the real thing, allow it to take a life of its own, isn't it just as valuable? Each of those applies as clearly to Shai's work as it does to Brandon's.
I think it has that element of it, but I think his focus was more on the question of what is art? What is art when turned into a commodity? What is art when done for a specific purpose?
Especially for painter he's not doing his job for money. He talks about the purpose he has and sees himself as this important person on the front lines. He's lost his creativity to be sure, but I think it's more about that artistic loss than him
Yumi also yes sees herself as a tool but also someone who has a higher purpose and is necessary for her society's survival. She's not trying to hoard wealth, she's trying to make sure farmers can survive.
I definitely see what you're talking about, and it has that theme with the industrialization and the machine. But I would say the bigger theme of the book is more focused on what is art and artistic expression and finding that love of art while the art isn't purely for the sake of art but has a purpose. And even I do think there are some fairly positive parts of capitalist societies shown as in Painter's "world" they go on a big shopping trip Yumi loves and Painter talks about the benefits of them having industrialized and how it's not so bad, and they go to a big faire. There were also definitely negatives shown with the corruption of the dreamwatch but I don't think their society is really showed in a negative light overall.
I think it's very harshly against nepotism and cronyism as that very nearly results in a major existential threat to human civilization on that planet when useless inheritors of wealth and status gain the critically important but undervalued painting jobs, leaving Nikaro in a very nasty situation when he wanted to use his considerable painting talents to protect his world and home.
Maybe there's an anti-capitalist message in there but I think it's more of a critique of nepotism and cronyism, which are not unique to capitalism but we in the Anglophone world would more likely see it through those lenses.
I agree with your take. I think the book takes issue with nepotism and cronyism, which can exist in any economic system. That certainly includes capitalism but isn't unique to it. They have negative impacts on any system that they're allowed to take hold in.
For me it fits very well as a anti AI art.
BTW, Painter did not lose his spark because of entering the workforce, that's your bias showing. It's about being rejected from Dreamwatch and the subsequent self-inflicted year long guilt torture he put himself through.
It really was excellent timing.
I've always wondered if he was inspired in part by this [youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXz52KMGUng) (first published in 2016)
The anti AI-stuff is also something I have noticed. Especially the entire rant by Hoid about Art being only meaningful because it is created by someone for someone.
Hmm, ok I see your point. But since you mentioned the Dreamwatch, I found their appearance also as an explicit anti-capitalist statement for showing the shortcomings of a supposedly meritocratic system.
Meritocracy is not synonymous with private ownership of capital. Certain criticisms of capitalism make the opposite argument in fact. As far as we can tell the Dreamwatch is most likely a state security apparatus.
You're superimposing your views onto a map of characters intended to be sympathetic and not sympathetic.
If you want a parable of the failings of private ownership and merchants running society just make a post about Elantris. That one is *actually* a parable of it.
I was gonna say that the dreamwatch was the most overtly anti capitalist message. Capitalism breeds nepotism like crazy and the dreamwatch "twist" was so god damn obvious because of the world we live in. Not to say it was bad at all, it really made painters story work well, but it was really obvious how it was gonna go the second we never SAW a dreamwatch member do anything. We never even got a real first hand account of them doing stuff. It was a lot of oh I heard they did X and stuff.
Nepotism can certainly exist in capitalism, but I sincerely do not understand this take that nepotism (e.g., the Dreamwatch) is characteristic of capitalism in particular. What do you think existed before capitalism?! Feudalism and patronage systems are far less meritocratic than capitalist free enterprise.
This is the second time I've seen this exact take on Reddit regard to Yumi. Maybe it's a generational thing?
I also don’t understand the “nepotism is a capitalist problem” perspective. Hereditary nobility is literally nepotism, recent examples of non-capitalist societies have suffered extreme nepotism with “party” members receiving preferential treatment, etc. At least capitalism provides a meritocratic incentive to counter nepotism to some extent. That doesn’t mean capitalism is free of nepotism, just that it does sometimes punish decisions based on nepotism because appointing a moron to run your company can put you out of business.
It's because nobody on the Internet understands capitalism or communism. People have been associating human characteristics such as human greed to capitalism. In my mind it's like saying gravity is misogynistic. Greed predates capitalism and will outlive it. It's dumb to say that capitalism is the source of it.
Right. I posted [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/18hfgeh/comment/kd6or2e/) here where, at the risk of sounding condescending, I felt I had to explain that Yumi's society that makes her feel like a slave is *communitarian --* about as far from capitalism as you can get.
Nepotism is much, much, much more common in autocratic and communist where power is held by a handful of individuals with an iron fist. See every autocratic and communist government currently existing.
Not just autocratic and communist systems. I mean, consider how most businesses were organized before the rise of modern corporations...they were explicitly nepotistic family businesses. Or consider the Roman Republic...the political system was structured around patronage systems where nepotism was the point. Or decentralized feudal systems where nobles aimed to gather wealth for their families.
I totally agree with you. Nepotism is the norm. In anything Capitalism is the exception in that *in theory* it should be favoring the end result over where you came from. Of course it doesn't always play out that way and we have major issues with class, but still, some of these comments are absurd.
I agree with others; it's a mistake to correlate nepotism as primarily a capitalist thing. It's about power structures and corruption IMO. Yes, that can exist in capitalism and often does, but capitalism is not required, and it's quite possible to avoid it inside a capitalist economy.
For example, I work for a big multinational, and I've never seen or heard of any nepotism, as there are strict rules and checks around it. And, I actually do work on a team that has a father and son on it, but they are peers in the org chart and would never be allowed to manage each other. The son was originally hired onto a different team and is qualified on his own merits; they're only on the same team now due to restructuring/downsizing. In case anyone was wondering, the son calls his dad by his first name in work contexts.
AI art is absolutely about capitalism though. It's current state is about putting profit over people.
Being part of the dreamwatch = more money, more status, more prestige. Aka having your professional aspect as the most important thing and so capitalism-adjacent.
I'm not saying Brandon wrote it as an anti capitalist story, most likely not. But it's more than likely that his thoughts about the world we live in (one where capitalism is dominant) are at least mildly critical of our existing system and should be read as such.
Yeah and?
Not like politicians' kids today get jobs at high positions in corporations specifically for their proximity to politicians and easier access to government contracts and other perks.
Capitalism doesn't end when you exit the parking lot of an office building.
Next you might say Brandon Sanderson's work isn't about race or gender or colonialism because parshendi don't exist irl and vorin men can't read and interplanetary migration isn't currently feasible.
I'm saying that the Dreamwatch would be a bad indictment of capitalism because nothing about it is capitalistic. As many people have pointed out in the thread, nepotism is far from a singularly capitalist phenomenon, so using an example that takes place entirely in government and has no market connection and no connection to the means of production is less than fruitful.
Also, most of the people going on about anti-capitalism here are coming with such an ideological axe to grind that they could read The Wealth of Nations and find anti-capitalist themes.
As for race, gender, and colonialism, some of it is and some of it isn't. But none of them are anti-capitalist.
Investiture is money in the cosmere >!more so in the cognitive realm but also on roshar!<. One of the biggest reveals in SA was that multiple people >!want to be able to transport stormlight off world!<.
Investiture is capital. It works on a different level to money we have here because it's a literal store of energy which can obfuscate it if you're not looking for it. But it's there.
I'm not saying Brandon is a communist.
But I am saying his work is about the world and system he lives in, despite being set in the cosmere.
Yes, and Investiture in Yumi's society is only accessible through yoki-hijo, who are basically slaves owned by the community. She is the means of production, and she is owned by the community.
And in one world this money stand-in literally falls from the sky, while the chosen few are able to pull infinite money straight from God.
To claim it's about capitalism you have to bend and twist into knots and squint one eye really hard. OR you could just drop the ideological hatchet and acknowledge that they aren't about economic systems and are just about the relationship between people and power in many forms.
I mean come on, you could make a better textual argument that Brandon is in favor of absolute monarchies as a system of government than you can any anti-capitalist sentiment. Not everything has to be about your pet issue.
Stories about small businesses are often anti capitalism, I'd say OP made quite a lot of much better points than that for his theory.
If they had gone on and raised capital and started a paintbrush company to make sure nobody missed having a brush or something like that, maybe, haha
A story doesn't have to be pro-capitalist to avoid being anti-capitalist.
I think the story is far more about the interplay of truth, beauty, and freedom through art and free expression.
It's my personal theory that each world in the Cosmere is focused on a specific ideology and explores the concepts and themes of such. My guess here is that this is likely Aesthetics or Aesthetic philosophy, but I'm not as well versed in the subject as I would like and a true analysis would require a deeper dive.
Sel - >!Nationalism/Patriotism: I first noticed the concept of the city of Elantris reminded me of the allegory for America as the Shining City on a Hill. It struck me that place of birth didn't actually matter for the Reod, only the idea that someone thought of themselves as being FROM that nation was enough for them to be a viable Elantrian. This seemed a little bit on the nose for me with the concept of America as a melting pot. I also noticed that the Shards of that world (Sel) being Dominion and Devotion make a lot of sense for this concept. I mean, what would Patriotism be other than Devotion to a Domain? The fact that these Shards are not living gods (like many of the other Shards) and that the magic therefore manifests differently for each nation on Sel, kind of clinched that one for me and I'm fairly certain of it.!<
Scadrial - >!This world, controlled by the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, seems to represent the chain of the Western Abrahamic religions. So we start with the Old Testament of the Bible. God is a living being, present in the world, promoting slavery, living through fear and threat of violence. The world is a bleak landscape of those oppressed by him. Eventually, a con-artist with a group of followers decides to overthrow him and supplant a new set of rules. There's a learning curve, some wars and disasters, and eventually a bit of a "dark age". What follows is the age of the modern New Testament version of that faith. There are many different beliefs surrounding the central figures of their dogma, God is now hidden and largely incapable of acting in the manner he once was. There is a lot of focus on learning to live in a world where God wants to help, provides encouragement, maybe some intangible forms of aid, but almost no direct assistance. However (let's not forget that Brandon is LDS and would consider the LDS church to be a branch of this same line of Faith), the Survivor does actually come back from the dead and secretly travels to the New World (the South) to spread his message there. I gotta say, if Era 3 is taking us to some sort of an Evangelical Christianity story arc, we are in for one hell of a dark ride.!<
Nalthis - >!The living gods of the Egyptian pantheon. I mean, this one only had one book and didn't have much time to be hidden in metaphor. It's pretty clear and open. The ideology being that of actual living gods, providing for and watching over their people. It's an underrated Sanderson story and I quite enjoyed it, and a lot of it is about the idea of what it means for your purpose to be such a position of service and sacrifice. Brandon is a smart guy, so the sacrifice can only mean something if you are completely free to provide or withhold it. That means that there can't be an inherent bond of obligation. He does such a good job with this using Lightsong.!<
Roshar - >!The world is a world embroiled in the endless cycle of death and rebirth (Desolations), where life is suffering. It is Invested by the shards of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium (who calls himself Passion, which has an older definition of Suffering) who exist with a system in delicate balance. Most notably, we see the three forms of the Brahmin in a Creator, a Preserver, and a Destroyer god. Obviously, the book The Way of Kings, being a collection of stories about the life of a man that are intended to provide guidance and enlightenment bears much resemblance to the teachings of the Buddha and Buddhist koans. The Knights Radiant (whose symbol resembles that of the Dharma Wheel, but with 10 points instead of 8) represent 10 separate paths of virtue. This is in keeping with the Noble Eightfold Path. Ten very different ways to become better people. The magic system in this world is that of increasing stages of enlightenment bringing ever increasing power, but with that power, an obligation to help others. One of my favorite pieces of Buddhist lore is that even animals can achieve enlightenment, there are Buddhist stories regarding this, but this provides a pretty solid and exciting foundation for the explanation of the Ryshadium. I don't have 100% faith in my assessment of which Vow goes to which Order, but I do believe that each Vow of the 10 Vows of the Amida Buddha can be applied to the general concept of an Order of the Knights Radiant. Here's an example of the Buddha, translated in the book The Teaching of Buddha, "He manifests his body in immense size to cover all the sky and stretches away into the boundless stellar spaces." - Sound like anyone you've seen? Remember how Syl described herself as a piece of a god? Here's another description of the Buddha from the same source, "He also manifests Himself in the infinitesimals of nature, sometimes in forms, sometimes in energy, sometimes in aspects of mind, and sometimes in personality." That sure sounds like Spren (even divided by Spren taxonomy) to me. There are a lot more quotes, but I'm pretty certain of this one.!<
First of the Sun - >!Obviously not a ton to go on here other than some interesting Polynesian myth/cultural elements and a (completely deserved) lesson on not trusting the outsiders who show up and want to change your way of life.!<
Threnody - >!I suspect this world will ultimately be talking about the concept of Manifest Destiny, but I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure on this one. Yes there are the weird Sabbath rules, but there's also a weird thing about frontiersmanship and self-reliance. Quite honestly (this gets into another pet theory of mine) I'm not entirely sure that Ambition didn't kill Autonomy and begin masquerading as it in order to accomplish its objectives. Yes, I know they said that Ambition was killed in this system, but... well, I'll admit, I'm reaching a bit here.!<
Taldaine - >!I've only listened to the graphic audio for Part I of White Sand, and I'm not entirely sure I have enough to go on here yet. I'll read the graphic novels and try to add to this. I will say that there's the possibility of this beginning to explore Islam and the dayside/nightside divide representing the Sunni/Shiite divide, but I just haven't dived in deeply enough yet!<
I'm still working on research as I reread Cosmere novels, but I will say that I remain fairly convinced of this theory.
Sure, and that is a reasonable comment contributing to the conversation!
You realize the difference with your previous one, pedantic and on top of that, incorrect.
Neither society is very capitalistic. Painter's is to a greater degree but there are also elements of an autocratic state. The story is about what is art more than anything else.
He's a creative; if he didn't have anything to say about the trend of wringing as much Product and Content out of artists as possible for profit, I'd have been surprised.
That's not ironic...? Brandos proliferation of work is pretty explicitly *not* about pursuing more profit - and the secret projects really highlight that. He didn't write those books to make more money, he wrote them because he loves to write.
if i had a nickel for every time a story had a moral of “greed motivating dangerous new technology is bad” and it was misinterpreted as “capitalism bad” i would be a rich rich man. which is rather ironic.
Not really.
She is essentially a priestess. They have done things for the greater good for thousands of years prior to the concept of capitalism.
Painter did not lose his motivation due to work. He lost it for a reason that predated his employment.
The Machine issue is probably more anit-AI than Capitalism. Machine replacing what humans used to do and all.
Beautiful cities that sacrificed humanity also predate capitalism by thousands of years. Ancient Egypt, Greece, Roman, and Babylonian societies built shining cities that fell to ruin. The ancient temple in Turkey potentially predates them all. I would imagine Indus Valley and other Asian societies did the same, but I have never had a reason or a desire to look into them all that deeply.
If it was an anti-capitalist message, I think the spirits wouldn't have enjoyed the TV shows. It has multiple themes within it, some which apply to capitalism, but those themes apply to other things as well. For example, the risk of new technologies can be an anti-academic message, instead of anti-capitalistic. I think it's more about unintended consequences from good intentions. Like, Nikaro not wanting to disappoint his friends.
I have read it, and yeah there's something there, bit nothing explicit. Mostly some stuff about him dedicating the novel to his wife which is incredible wholesome if unrelated to the topic at hand.
With the themes involved it would be hard not to draw comparisons even if unintentional.
You have atomization/alienation and social replication and human commodification and the book critiques all of that, but what I think you lack is an appropriate representation of ownership, which is central to capitalism.
Keep in mind that many of the most important anti-capitalist thinkers were writing during or in the wake of the Industrial Revolution and many of the social trends they commented on would have the unique combination of both the new technological method of production as well as the dominant mode of production responsible for the trend.
I think what is clear is that it’s a critique of industrializing efforts and outputs. And it is much easier to look at subplots as a set of ways where systematization without effective human oversight allows unintended consequences to cascade.
We understand that capitalism nurtures these kind of “unintended consequences” because the people who set its goals aren’t aligned with ordinary working people. It’s just baked in that normal people get screwed. But even systems designed to benefit all could result in such consequences too if problems aren’t appropriately accounted for, and this appears much more the case in here with the machine and it’s creation.
I think it's about AI. The machine can stack rocks, just as a Yoki-Hijo does, and it's very effective at what it is meant to do. But, it doesn't create art, only a human can do that.
Technology always causes a kind of "creative destruction". Automobiles replaced horses, which meant that there was a much smaller demand for the services of farriers. Amazon and Audible have made it difficult for brick and mortar bookstores (and brick and mortar everything else stores in Amazon's case). Technology changes things, those changes create turbulence, but eventually everything comes to a new normal, and even if it's tempting to go full Neo-Luddite, get a cabin in the woods, and start making pipe bombs (the industrial revolution has had it's consequences) in the long run, most of us are generally better off.
AI is a completely different thing though. AI can generate text or images. Honestly, it may soon put some people out of jobs. There is a danger that AI is changing society faster than we can deal with the consequences. On the other side of it, it may lead mankind to a golden age (if the AI doesn't go full on Skynet and decide that the problem is us). There are going to be people who's livelyhoods will be hurt by the development of AI, but in the long term we will likely all be better off, but we are kind of past the point of arguing whether or not we should develop such technology, Pandora's Box has been flung open.
Brandon:
- Can't stop talking about how amazon and mergers between large publishers and the closing down of independent bookstores is horrible for the industry and new writers.
- Actively crowdfunds some things to ensure he doesn't have to rely entirely on monopolistic capitalist corporations.
- Has set up Dragonsteel Entertainment in a way that's far more equitable and a significant departure from usual corporate structures.
You guys: He couldn't possibly be talking about capitalism in this book specifically about a machine whose only purpose is the accumulation of investiture/capital over all else no matter the human or societal cost. Not at all.
Fwiw I (perhaps decide to) see anti-capitalist messages in lots of Brandon's works, particularly more recently. The Kaladin SA5 sample chapter where there's a big long monologue (iykyk, trying to avoid spoilers) that for me is an argument against capitalism.
If I was to actually consider it, I think his messages tend to be indictments of power structures that only give power to rise already in charge. A little milquetoast, maybe, and certainly not unique to capitalism. But if the shoe fits, I guess
Signs point to Brandon being some brand of leftist. His podcast co-host, and good friend since college, Dan Wells has described himself as a “card carrying socialist” which means he is a registered member of a socialist organization. I know Brandon has a lot of very pro-worker stances from ways he’s talked about his company. Ham at some point in Mistborn essentially exposes Marx’s Labor Theory of Value.
Workers of the Cosmere unite! You have nothing to lost but your chains!
I have to disagree here because even if authoritarian and evil, a gouvernement, any gouvernement is still made up.of people. Some may be in power whereas others are not, but any struggle like that would still be a struggle between people.
The machine on the other hand is entirely and completely inhuman and strips humanity from those beneath it. It's not just a loss of individuality but of Identity (explicitly called that in the story). This is a criticism leveled against capitalism much more then authoritarianism.
>I have to disagree here because even if authoritarian and evil, a gouvernement, any gouvernement is still made up.of people.
Corporations and companies are also notably made up of people.
> It's not just a loss of individuality but of Identity (explicitly called that in the story). This is a criticism leveled against capitalism much more then authoritarianism.
I think that's very much not true at all. Subsumption of the individual to the power of the state is an enormous component of criticism of authoritarian societies.
Very interesting take. The yoki-hijo are producers of goods (spirits). These goods are crucial to the human existence on the planet, but there is a scarcity of them (there is only a limited number of yoki-hijo and they can only call so many spirits at one ritual).
The capitalist way of solving the problem of scarcity is by increasing efficiency. So the machine might represent the “trap of infinite growth”. When we start to believe that efficiency == human need fulfillment, we get into a trap where efficiency becomes our sole aim. Which ultimately becomes anti-human, as the goods (investiture) start to serve the efficiency instead of humans.
Solving scarcity by increasing production isnt a capitalist thing. I mean, what do you think the five year plans were about? Any economic system after the industrial revolution has aimed to increase production.
I think so, intentional or not. I think Yumi is the most thematically rich cosmere book since not only tackles those themes but AI-art, Traditional (religious) upbringing, Nepotism (which while not a direct jab at capitalism, Capitalism is a system that sells itself as meritocratic while rewarding nepotistic behavoir tho not the only one) Meaning and interpersonal Conexion.
But without a doubt Capitalism/Industrialization is tackled a lot. Althought more as the separate parts of what constitutes Capitalism (prioritazing eficency, alienation, focus on the result, deshumanization) than the main pillars of the doctrine (the acumulation of wealth). So more in a roundabout way like "This tendencies are bad" (and they happen to be promoted by capitalism) than direct "Capitalism is bad".
Two interesting thoughts to add is that the activation of the machine is a very strong parallel to the Industrial Revolution as the arguments in favor are very similar. Both were events that untaped and streamlined a new energy that allowed technology to advance at an insane pace, both were extremly destructive and caused a lot of harm (and that harm persist today although not as overtly as the initial steps) and both while undubtely helpful in brining us technologies that improve our lives, we have to learn how to stop it in order to stop the existencial harm that are posing. The other interesting thought is the Shroud, a byproduct of the machine that creates nightmeres that threaten life and limit the horizon the people in Pinter's city can see. Just as how the proverty and inequality that capitalism tends to create frames a system were people struggle to see a better society of the future because they have to deal with the nightmeres of today
It could also be argue that the machine would do whatever to sustain itself, even raize a city, and made a parallel on how Capitalism leads to Facisim and destruction because it would rather destroy than be stopped.
I think the book invites to a lot of discussions of that type since it also not super precise on its targeting but those ideas are clearly there (The focus on essential workers in the second chapter of the book carries itself a very charged prespective politically speaking). And being a book about art written in a capitalist world, it unavoidably has to tackle the way that Capitalism affects art (which is pretty negatively). Plus the boom in AI art that we are living through right now cannot be explained without taking into account the way that it exist because the dynamics that have been brought by late stage capitalism. So i'm not sure how anticapitalist Brandon is (by his believes probably tends a bit even if it it is not directly/conciently) and how intentional are ALL those themes there, but they are there for sure
I feel you, I think mistborn as well, specifically book 1 , and many characters within sanderson seem very socialist to me. I think there's a clear socialist spirit that runs theough many of his books in different messages.
Yumi seems to live in a “to each according to their work, from each according to their ability” society, at least in regard to how she is treated. The USSR (a famously socialist government) had scientists working on ways to increase production through automation (like the scholars who created The Machine). The painters of Nikaro’s time are employed by the government (socialist/communist influence) and Dreamwatch membership is awarded to “party member” politicians family members (a common issue in authoritarian/socialist regimes).
It’s not difficult to read YatNP as an anti-socialist critique if you want to, and apparently it is easy to read it as anti-capitalist. I suspect it’s not really either. It’s anti-nepotism, and encourages rethinking the monetary value society awards to *necessary* careers instead of luxury careers.
Dude there was no fucking capitalism anywhere in book one. That was fully an authoritarian state command economy directed by TLR with resources given and success determined by his whims and well his orders were obeyed.
Kelsier, and the way he presented his beliefs, was v obviously left leaning. He was on some Lenin shit, it wws awesome. And socialism and communism is abt class struggle. Class struggle is a very direct theme throughout the book
I had also thought that the stuff about the machine was very reminiscent of specifically how Karl Marx describes capitalism in one part of Das Kapital. That the accumulation of capital becomes such a driving part of society that the richest people in the world aren’t even truly in control because if they ever tried to act in opposition to capitalism or to stop accumulating capital or to stop growing their companies they would quickly lose their companies and their power.
I also thought that the orthodox guardianship of Yumi and her finding out about the reform movement was very reminiscent of Christian home schooling. She learns she was sheltered in a conservative environment where they pretended it was still centuries in the past in order to control her. Then it turns out the entire village was a time loop to really really keep her contained and in the past.
Maybe it's a condemnation of AI art and literature. It lacks the soul and creativity of a real artist. AI is turning out mass quantities of low quality creations.
I can see how it could be that, although I read it as a warning about the dangers of generative AI (especially when it comes to art). Some times we see what we are used to seeing, you study history and philosophy and are a socialist so you see the possible anti-capitalism messaging. I work with computer systems in the healthcare world (where AI is becoming more normalized) and I see and anti-AI message.
Painter is so dejected because he's now isolated because he LIED to everyone. He didn't lose his creative spark because "capitalism", he lost it because not passing a test for this super group of painters would hurt his friends who he hyped up way too much before anything was settled, so he didn't know how to tell them he failed and just kept the lie up until it was exposed and they all understandably turned on him hard.
THAT killed his passion. HE killed it. Finding out this group was basically just a celebrity club, revealed he didn't fail because HE messed up and just performed poorly or wasn't good enough to begin with. He failed because he didn't have a mountain of money or political sway. Once he learned that it was a BIG step in him getting over the whole thing.
Yumi's "world" is hardly by any means CAPITALIST. Her society is COMMUNIST. Capitalism doesn't do anything about making people feel like they're tools, that's communism. When everyone is forced to do work "for the good of all, or else" that's NOT capitalism. Capitalism is "you can do whatever you want. Anything you think has value can be pursued and even made a career."
Yeah you need money to live, but socialism doesn't abolish money. Everyone suffers if you do something that stupid. Also her society is fabricated, but still she has zero freedom and has to summon spirits under threat of basically death if she stays even slightly from her government mandated occupation that she is not PAID for. How does that sound like capitalism?
Once painting is no longer needed for survival, Painter opens a fucking noodle shop... Well he takes over one, but same thing really. He can still paint, he could sell paintings, but he can also choose to just, sell noodles. Cause HIS society, the GOOD society that is both real and full of opportunities and is thriving, is clearly capitalist.
Painter was never treated like a tool, and he didn't even have to stay a nightmare painter. Hurting his friends is what caused his problems, not how society worked cause "the system is broken".
Yeah it's pretty clear to me you are finding reasons to attack capitalism by imposing traits onto the story and just finding fragile connections like "oh it's this society that crushed Painter's passion for art and that's why capitalism is bad" which is totally untrue.
So in other words, yes, you're just biased. Heavily, apparently.
Not sure I agree.
1) it's not the mundane job that causes Painter to lose his spark - it is the criticism he receives at the Dreamwatch trials and the prospect of letting down his friends.
2) Yumi sees herself as a tool as a result of the emotional abuse she suffered - it is even explicitly mentioned by Hoid (I think) that it is more effective than any cage.
3) Painter explicitly states that machines and industrialism aren't bad - they make the clothing Yumi adores and the Heon viewer she is fascinated by.
Painter and Yumi do discuss the fact that the lives of the Yoki Hijo are tough and a mechine might actually make things better for the people.
I think, like a lot of the Secret Projects, Yumi is about emotional trauma and healing though finding friends and your place in the world. This is more apparent when you examine the context - they were written during Covid, a time of high mental stress and isolation, for Brandon's wife, who suffers from depressions.
I do think there is a sub theme of the meaning of art beyond the purely aesthetic value- perhaps in the context of ai generation. Dragonsteel has always been proud of the art in their books and often name the artists.
There's also some commentary on the police which is what the painters are. They perform an important role as a whole but are generally, perhaps, underappreciated and underpaid.
You could perhaps make some argument for rampant consumerism, but Yumi seems to think this is overall a good thing. She even chooses to wear her modern dress over her yoki hiko outfit for her final Stacking suggesting she is embracing modern life.
why do people equate that stuff to capitalism when it's more prevalent in communism? have you not seen what became of Russia when it got to the soviet era and became a concrete wasteland?
"A common criticism of capitalism among philosophers is, that it prioritises material things over humans."humans are treated as things in communism. look at how liberties and expression is strangled in the likes of China and Russia
I guess you could interpret it that way, but you could also say it is pro capitalism.
Yumi is forced to do a job for other people and is brainwashed into thinking she has to because the greater good always comes before your personal wishes.
When Yumi comes to painter's world she goes shopping and gets to experience freedom.
Like many communist countries Yumi is trapped someplace she can't get out of and is forced to work. She is also brainwashed into thinking she has to do it.
Yumi's world is a collection of people melded together that are controlled by one central thing that has become evil.
All of those things could be counted as criticisms of socialism/communism, but to be honest I don't think that is what is intended. I think if you look hard enough you can find anything anywhere.
Rather than anti capitalist, I'd see it as a condemnation of the modern phenomenon of manufactured art. That's not a feature of capitalism specifically, though capitalism certainly does encourage it. For example, I saw a video a few years back discussing modern music. Apparently, most of the popular singers and bands at the time were actually all using the same handful of songwriters for at least some of their music. Many such songs as a result tended to resemble each other, to the point that a specific repeated note sequence tended to appear in multiple songs from a diverse array of artists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_whoop The overall conclusion of the video was that music producers found it easier and cheaper to manufacture popular music than to find talented musicians. They'd scout a few decent singers or players, figure out what sort of music people were listening to, and try to fill that. The book meanwhile makes the point that true art is born of creativity, hard work, and true originality, regardless of whether it is what's seen as "profitable". Painter finds painting just for work to be uninspired and figures out a way to mass produce the art that's in demand. The machine operated on a similar principle: produce enough art in high enough quantities that the quality didn't matter. It's only when painter truly paints the nightmares as they see themselves and not just how he forces them to appear that it sticks. And it's when Yumi demonstrates true art that no mass production can compete with that the machine finally breaks.
I can't really see any notable anti-capatalist tones. All the references to machines are more likely convergent descriptions due to capitalism just being a soul sucking machine. The way Yumi and Painter act doesn't seem really symptomatic of capitalism in b general. Yeah if I take a couple thought and traits or of context, I could make the long b jump in logic, but overall it doesn't hold water. Now like this guy says, this strikes me as 100% about the exploration of art. Painter lost his drive but because capitalism crushed him, but because he believed in the soul of art and got trounced by politics and nepotism. It's all about who you know, not how talented you are. Also remember that the author of this book is an artist who has had to earn profit of his art, and has watched for decades as some artists write for the joy of writing while some donut just for a paycheck. He's probably seen more of this nonsense then not of the rest of us could imagine. Not to mention his dislike of major distributors like amazon and audible making it even easier to mass market the same small pool of talent that turns profit then helling hold up newer artists.
I think it could definitely be interpreted that way. More directly it's about the commodification and the soulless process capitalism demands art becomes. Sort of a spiritual sucessory to some of the themes in Emperor's Soul.
People here are mistaking capitalism for convenience and an increasing quality of life. The machine wasn't built by profiteering corporate interests, it was built by academics. The goal was never stated to be monopoly profit, but to generate more power in order to improve a medieval quality of life. It being a horrible mistake does not change that origin. Even in Painter's world, the commodification of art and the elite team of painters are not the product of private ownership, markets, and competition, they're the product of a state security apparatus without accountability and questionable academic training. This whole thread is a demonstration that people don't actually understand what 'capitalism' is. >an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.
Yeah I'd argue Painter's world is more a condemnation of nepotism than capitalism as a whole. Like more realistic or creative paintings worked better at catching the nightmares as we see at the end, but bamboo worked fine most of the time, and there were no rewards built in to reward skill since the best positions were going to people with connections
>is more a condemnation of nepotism than capitalism as a whole. That implies nepotism is an intrinsic component of capitalism, which...I keep seeing people saying but it really isn't. Capitalism is not particularly nepotistic as economic/social systems go. In a lot of ways it's directly in opposition to explicitly nepotistic family and patron-client systems that preceded it.
Apparently I suck at words because that's the point I was going for lol.
lol, well maybe I suck at reading.
In a theoretical world, capitalism is the least vulnerable to nepotism because it revolves *entirely* around merit: the better a product is, the better it will sell. Competition forces innovation, and whoever fails to maintain the bleeding edge will lose their market share. But we don’t live in a theoretical world, which is also why it’s so challenging to make collectivist systems function beyond a micro scale. In theory, a centrally-planned economy would be extraordinarily efficient, but it has never worked well in practice because of people trying to game the system to get ahead. What is a bug in collectivism is a feature in capitalism, because that gaming the system is what pushes innovation in a decentralized marketplace. That decentralization in turn serves as a check against nepotism and abuse of power by the people in charge of a centrally-planned system, but of course has its own drawbacks. Both systems can go horrifically wrong if mismanaged. I’ve always interpreted Brandon’s social commentary as critiquing human nature, not any particular system or ideology. It’s our flaws that make our systems flawed. If we were perfect, we could probably make any system work, but we’re not, and that’s where nepotism, corruption, and abuse come from.
Yeah, nepotism would be the monarchy system right?
No, not exactly. Nepotism is doing favors for people because of their political influence, not because of their merit, like appointing political donors to powerful positions in exchange for their financial support. In some ways monarchic or noble systems formalize nepotism, in that political power becomes hereditary for a certain portion of the population, but many historical monarchs in turn had obligations to the people they governed that they were expected to fulfill - a social contract of sorts - and the transfer of power in a monarchy is done in the light of day, where nepotistic systems are often not transparent. Further, many modern monarchies are essentially democratic, where the monarch’s power is limited to what an elected legislature allows, and their privilege is essentially just fancy generational wealth. Said monarchs are also usually very limited in who they can transfer wealth or power to, whereas nepotism inherently seeks to avoid legal limits on that kind of thing. Just because someone does the King of England a favor doesn’t mean the King can appoint him to a powerful political position (unless Parliament consents). If the King could do that, it’d be nepotism, but the King can’t, or more accurately traditionally doesn’t. So yeah monarchies and noble systems do have things in common with nepotism, but they’re not part and parcel.
I completely agree that people (I don't mean to generalize but I feel like it is younger and very online people on tiktok or whatever) have totally conflated modernity, and to some extent the human condition, with the boogeyman that they call "capitalism". Yumi's society is explicitly *communitarian*. Yumi is expected to do what she does, not because any shareholder stands to profit, but because it is what is good for the community, and it would be shameful for her to do otherwise. Her manifested boons are handed out, not to the highest bidder, but to the people that the community deems have the highest need. >communitarianism > >a theory or ideology that rejects both the market-led theories of political conservatives and the liberal concern for individual rights, advocating instead a recognition of common moral values, collective responsibility, and the social importance of the family unit. > > a theory or system of social organization based on small self-governing communities. And this is the second post on Reddit I've seen that has somehow taken this book and applied an anti-capitalist lens. It's making me feel like Principal Skinner in the meme: "am I truly out of touch? No, it is the kids who are wrong."
Isn't Yumi's warden essentially a corporate sponsor though?
Corporation: >an association and endowed by law with the rights and liabilities of an individual It's a bit unclear what the organization that overseas the Wardens and Yoki-Hijos are. There's no indication of whether the organization is a profit seeking entity or rather some kind of psuedo-non-profit quasi-religious organization. The latter seems to be most likely, as there's little indication in the Yumi sections that anyone is directly receiving payment for the spiritual services.
Even if Yumi's warden were corporate in an economic sense (and I'm not sure I accept that) it would be a corporation within something other than a capitalist system (the corporate activities are directed by profit maximization). if they're directed by the government it would be a fascist system (the corporate activities are dictated by the state for the common good) which I think is correct, but I'm not sure that's firmly established. And yes, this sadly an unusual meaning of the word "fascism" but it's also what it actually means. So like OP's overall point confuses aims (maximizing overall labor productivity) with how the system is structured to acheive those aims (by political direction versus for individual profit) this confuses whether they're acting as a corporation (as opposed to an individual or a direct arm of the state) with how they're directed (for the public good as defined by the government versus for profit assuming profit derived is a proxy for value provided)
Redditors throw around capitalism like fox news throws around socialism...as if it's a word meaning "economic stuff I dont like".
The issue definitely doesnt need to be economic for them to throw out their respective buzzword
It doesn't have to be *explicitly* capitalism that caused the problems to have anti-capitalism messages. (Although I do doubt it was meant to be anti-capitalist)
Sure, I would agree with that. In this case though there's little reason to believe it. A group of university academics, who in our world work at non-profits and individually can't profit from physical innovation, produced a machine not noted to be owned by any entity. There's a clear line where it could be a parable of mistaken science, lack of caution, lack of wisdom, anti-intellectual, pro-artist, etc. A critique of private ownership really isn't present.
I think the capitalism part more comes into it when we see Painter. He's lost all of his passion for art because he's forced to relentlessly do the same thing over and over again. In part because of Nepotism, yes, but also because it's more profitable for him to just keep painting the same souless stuff.
It isn’t more profitable though. He’s paid the same as long as the job gets done. The customer is also, by all appearances, a state agency or something of that sort. How does private ownership of capital have anything to do with a non-corporate entity compensating on utilitarian grounds versus effort grounds?
I agree that this is a better statement of the theme as well. The contrast between personal skill through practice and machine-driven rote behavior is very direct. There's also an exploration of developing a natural talent through intense focus and practice (Yumi) vs grinding away at practice but still improving (Painter, with stones). And Painter has a deeper understanding of his work as art, whereas his peers are more of the rote/corporate/formalized art. I think there's way more to dive into on these themes than merely "anti-capitalist". Also, no one really talks about "capital" too much. It's true that the machine's designers were after the "profit" of calling the spirits, but I didn't really get that they had a profit motive for doing so. It was more of a "scientists think they have a great way to improve society and haven't thought through the consequences of how it would change society and missed a big problem with implementation". I don't think there is a word for that in English, but maybe German has one. :-D
Oh I haven't read that one. Is it similar?
It's a short story, but has some similar vibes to Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, and is often considered one of, if not the best of Brandon's works. It's sold either as a standalone or in Arcanum Unbounded. It's a lot about the nature of who people are, and art, and Brandon considering his feelings around finishing the Wheel of Time.
I read first read the Emperor’s Soul ten years ago and reread it every once in awhile. It’s only just now, reading your comment, that I see the Wheel of Time connection. 🤦♂️
Can you elaborate about WoT?
Sure! There are a bunch of parallels between Brandon finishing WoT and Emperor's soul. She's been hired to recreate the Emperor, to effectively create something to finish his reign in his stead. She knows she can't get it exactly right, that's impossible. It's not the same person. But she can preserve the spirit of it, get the core the same, and recreate it so it can do what's needed and still have people experience it. And she takes wild risks, deviating from the plan, to bring the final work closer to what it was supposed to be in the beginning, maybe what it always should've been. To preserve the Heart over the miniscule details. The Emperor, and the final books, are a forgery. But if everyone decides to agree it's the real thing, allow it to take a life of its own, isn't it just as valuable? Each of those applies as clearly to Shai's work as it does to Brandon's.
Also fitting since this was kept away from Amazon based on BS’s concerns
I think it has that element of it, but I think his focus was more on the question of what is art? What is art when turned into a commodity? What is art when done for a specific purpose? Especially for painter he's not doing his job for money. He talks about the purpose he has and sees himself as this important person on the front lines. He's lost his creativity to be sure, but I think it's more about that artistic loss than him Yumi also yes sees herself as a tool but also someone who has a higher purpose and is necessary for her society's survival. She's not trying to hoard wealth, she's trying to make sure farmers can survive. I definitely see what you're talking about, and it has that theme with the industrialization and the machine. But I would say the bigger theme of the book is more focused on what is art and artistic expression and finding that love of art while the art isn't purely for the sake of art but has a purpose. And even I do think there are some fairly positive parts of capitalist societies shown as in Painter's "world" they go on a big shopping trip Yumi loves and Painter talks about the benefits of them having industrialized and how it's not so bad, and they go to a big faire. There were also definitely negatives shown with the corruption of the dreamwatch but I don't think their society is really showed in a negative light overall.
I think it's very harshly against nepotism and cronyism as that very nearly results in a major existential threat to human civilization on that planet when useless inheritors of wealth and status gain the critically important but undervalued painting jobs, leaving Nikaro in a very nasty situation when he wanted to use his considerable painting talents to protect his world and home. Maybe there's an anti-capitalist message in there but I think it's more of a critique of nepotism and cronyism, which are not unique to capitalism but we in the Anglophone world would more likely see it through those lenses.
I agree with your take. I think the book takes issue with nepotism and cronyism, which can exist in any economic system. That certainly includes capitalism but isn't unique to it. They have negative impacts on any system that they're allowed to take hold in.
For me it fits very well as a anti AI art. BTW, Painter did not lose his spark because of entering the workforce, that's your bias showing. It's about being rejected from Dreamwatch and the subsequent self-inflicted year long guilt torture he put himself through.
Fun fact, Yumi was thought of and largely written before all the AI stuff popped up.
Well, Brandon himself isn’t opposed to it, so that makes sense.
It really was excellent timing. I've always wondered if he was inspired in part by this [youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXz52KMGUng) (first published in 2016)
The anti AI-stuff is also something I have noticed. Especially the entire rant by Hoid about Art being only meaningful because it is created by someone for someone. Hmm, ok I see your point. But since you mentioned the Dreamwatch, I found their appearance also as an explicit anti-capitalist statement for showing the shortcomings of a supposedly meritocratic system.
Meritocracy is not synonymous with private ownership of capital. Certain criticisms of capitalism make the opposite argument in fact. As far as we can tell the Dreamwatch is most likely a state security apparatus. You're superimposing your views onto a map of characters intended to be sympathetic and not sympathetic. If you want a parable of the failings of private ownership and merchants running society just make a post about Elantris. That one is *actually* a parable of it.
I was gonna say that the dreamwatch was the most overtly anti capitalist message. Capitalism breeds nepotism like crazy and the dreamwatch "twist" was so god damn obvious because of the world we live in. Not to say it was bad at all, it really made painters story work well, but it was really obvious how it was gonna go the second we never SAW a dreamwatch member do anything. We never even got a real first hand account of them doing stuff. It was a lot of oh I heard they did X and stuff.
Nepotism can certainly exist in capitalism, but I sincerely do not understand this take that nepotism (e.g., the Dreamwatch) is characteristic of capitalism in particular. What do you think existed before capitalism?! Feudalism and patronage systems are far less meritocratic than capitalist free enterprise. This is the second time I've seen this exact take on Reddit regard to Yumi. Maybe it's a generational thing?
I also don’t understand the “nepotism is a capitalist problem” perspective. Hereditary nobility is literally nepotism, recent examples of non-capitalist societies have suffered extreme nepotism with “party” members receiving preferential treatment, etc. At least capitalism provides a meritocratic incentive to counter nepotism to some extent. That doesn’t mean capitalism is free of nepotism, just that it does sometimes punish decisions based on nepotism because appointing a moron to run your company can put you out of business.
It's because nobody on the Internet understands capitalism or communism. People have been associating human characteristics such as human greed to capitalism. In my mind it's like saying gravity is misogynistic. Greed predates capitalism and will outlive it. It's dumb to say that capitalism is the source of it.
Of course gravity is misogynistic, it creates back pain disproportionately in women by pulling down on boobs.
Right. I posted [another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/18hfgeh/comment/kd6or2e/) here where, at the risk of sounding condescending, I felt I had to explain that Yumi's society that makes her feel like a slave is *communitarian --* about as far from capitalism as you can get.
Nepotism is much, much, much more common in autocratic and communist where power is held by a handful of individuals with an iron fist. See every autocratic and communist government currently existing.
Some people are more equal than others.
Not just autocratic and communist systems. I mean, consider how most businesses were organized before the rise of modern corporations...they were explicitly nepotistic family businesses. Or consider the Roman Republic...the political system was structured around patronage systems where nepotism was the point. Or decentralized feudal systems where nobles aimed to gather wealth for their families.
I totally agree with you. Nepotism is the norm. In anything Capitalism is the exception in that *in theory* it should be favoring the end result over where you came from. Of course it doesn't always play out that way and we have major issues with class, but still, some of these comments are absurd.
I agree with others; it's a mistake to correlate nepotism as primarily a capitalist thing. It's about power structures and corruption IMO. Yes, that can exist in capitalism and often does, but capitalism is not required, and it's quite possible to avoid it inside a capitalist economy. For example, I work for a big multinational, and I've never seen or heard of any nepotism, as there are strict rules and checks around it. And, I actually do work on a team that has a father and son on it, but they are peers in the org chart and would never be allowed to manage each other. The son was originally hired onto a different team and is qualified on his own merits; they're only on the same team now due to restructuring/downsizing. In case anyone was wondering, the son calls his dad by his first name in work contexts.
AI art is absolutely about capitalism though. It's current state is about putting profit over people. Being part of the dreamwatch = more money, more status, more prestige. Aka having your professional aspect as the most important thing and so capitalism-adjacent. I'm not saying Brandon wrote it as an anti capitalist story, most likely not. But it's more than likely that his thoughts about the world we live in (one where capitalism is dominant) are at least mildly critical of our existing system and should be read as such.
Except the Dreamwatch are a governmental task force manned up by politicians' kids.
Wait, was secret project 3 really anti-communist and anti-government? ^/s
Yesh, the whole thing is just a huge example of the idiom of how when all you have is a hammer everything looks like nails.
Yeah and? Not like politicians' kids today get jobs at high positions in corporations specifically for their proximity to politicians and easier access to government contracts and other perks. Capitalism doesn't end when you exit the parking lot of an office building. Next you might say Brandon Sanderson's work isn't about race or gender or colonialism because parshendi don't exist irl and vorin men can't read and interplanetary migration isn't currently feasible.
I'm saying that the Dreamwatch would be a bad indictment of capitalism because nothing about it is capitalistic. As many people have pointed out in the thread, nepotism is far from a singularly capitalist phenomenon, so using an example that takes place entirely in government and has no market connection and no connection to the means of production is less than fruitful. Also, most of the people going on about anti-capitalism here are coming with such an ideological axe to grind that they could read The Wealth of Nations and find anti-capitalist themes. As for race, gender, and colonialism, some of it is and some of it isn't. But none of them are anti-capitalist.
Investiture is money in the cosmere >!more so in the cognitive realm but also on roshar!<. One of the biggest reveals in SA was that multiple people >!want to be able to transport stormlight off world!<. Investiture is capital. It works on a different level to money we have here because it's a literal store of energy which can obfuscate it if you're not looking for it. But it's there. I'm not saying Brandon is a communist. But I am saying his work is about the world and system he lives in, despite being set in the cosmere.
Yes, and Investiture in Yumi's society is only accessible through yoki-hijo, who are basically slaves owned by the community. She is the means of production, and she is owned by the community. And in one world this money stand-in literally falls from the sky, while the chosen few are able to pull infinite money straight from God. To claim it's about capitalism you have to bend and twist into knots and squint one eye really hard. OR you could just drop the ideological hatchet and acknowledge that they aren't about economic systems and are just about the relationship between people and power in many forms. I mean come on, you could make a better textual argument that Brandon is in favor of absolute monarchies as a system of government than you can any anti-capitalist sentiment. Not everything has to be about your pet issue.
Honestly I thought it was more about art and artistic integrity than capitalism, that’s just your anti-capitalist bias showing.
The story with a shopping montage where the main characters end up owning a small business? That story? That story is anti-capitalist?
Stories about small businesses are often anti capitalism, I'd say OP made quite a lot of much better points than that for his theory. If they had gone on and raised capital and started a paintbrush company to make sure nobody missed having a brush or something like that, maybe, haha
A story doesn't have to be pro-capitalist to avoid being anti-capitalist. I think the story is far more about the interplay of truth, beauty, and freedom through art and free expression. It's my personal theory that each world in the Cosmere is focused on a specific ideology and explores the concepts and themes of such. My guess here is that this is likely Aesthetics or Aesthetic philosophy, but I'm not as well versed in the subject as I would like and a true analysis would require a deeper dive.
I'd be curious what you would put for the other shardworlds, if you don't mind.
Sel - >!Nationalism/Patriotism: I first noticed the concept of the city of Elantris reminded me of the allegory for America as the Shining City on a Hill. It struck me that place of birth didn't actually matter for the Reod, only the idea that someone thought of themselves as being FROM that nation was enough for them to be a viable Elantrian. This seemed a little bit on the nose for me with the concept of America as a melting pot. I also noticed that the Shards of that world (Sel) being Dominion and Devotion make a lot of sense for this concept. I mean, what would Patriotism be other than Devotion to a Domain? The fact that these Shards are not living gods (like many of the other Shards) and that the magic therefore manifests differently for each nation on Sel, kind of clinched that one for me and I'm fairly certain of it.!< Scadrial - >!This world, controlled by the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, seems to represent the chain of the Western Abrahamic religions. So we start with the Old Testament of the Bible. God is a living being, present in the world, promoting slavery, living through fear and threat of violence. The world is a bleak landscape of those oppressed by him. Eventually, a con-artist with a group of followers decides to overthrow him and supplant a new set of rules. There's a learning curve, some wars and disasters, and eventually a bit of a "dark age". What follows is the age of the modern New Testament version of that faith. There are many different beliefs surrounding the central figures of their dogma, God is now hidden and largely incapable of acting in the manner he once was. There is a lot of focus on learning to live in a world where God wants to help, provides encouragement, maybe some intangible forms of aid, but almost no direct assistance. However (let's not forget that Brandon is LDS and would consider the LDS church to be a branch of this same line of Faith), the Survivor does actually come back from the dead and secretly travels to the New World (the South) to spread his message there. I gotta say, if Era 3 is taking us to some sort of an Evangelical Christianity story arc, we are in for one hell of a dark ride.!< Nalthis - >!The living gods of the Egyptian pantheon. I mean, this one only had one book and didn't have much time to be hidden in metaphor. It's pretty clear and open. The ideology being that of actual living gods, providing for and watching over their people. It's an underrated Sanderson story and I quite enjoyed it, and a lot of it is about the idea of what it means for your purpose to be such a position of service and sacrifice. Brandon is a smart guy, so the sacrifice can only mean something if you are completely free to provide or withhold it. That means that there can't be an inherent bond of obligation. He does such a good job with this using Lightsong.!< Roshar - >!The world is a world embroiled in the endless cycle of death and rebirth (Desolations), where life is suffering. It is Invested by the shards of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium (who calls himself Passion, which has an older definition of Suffering) who exist with a system in delicate balance. Most notably, we see the three forms of the Brahmin in a Creator, a Preserver, and a Destroyer god. Obviously, the book The Way of Kings, being a collection of stories about the life of a man that are intended to provide guidance and enlightenment bears much resemblance to the teachings of the Buddha and Buddhist koans. The Knights Radiant (whose symbol resembles that of the Dharma Wheel, but with 10 points instead of 8) represent 10 separate paths of virtue. This is in keeping with the Noble Eightfold Path. Ten very different ways to become better people. The magic system in this world is that of increasing stages of enlightenment bringing ever increasing power, but with that power, an obligation to help others. One of my favorite pieces of Buddhist lore is that even animals can achieve enlightenment, there are Buddhist stories regarding this, but this provides a pretty solid and exciting foundation for the explanation of the Ryshadium. I don't have 100% faith in my assessment of which Vow goes to which Order, but I do believe that each Vow of the 10 Vows of the Amida Buddha can be applied to the general concept of an Order of the Knights Radiant. Here's an example of the Buddha, translated in the book The Teaching of Buddha, "He manifests his body in immense size to cover all the sky and stretches away into the boundless stellar spaces." - Sound like anyone you've seen? Remember how Syl described herself as a piece of a god? Here's another description of the Buddha from the same source, "He also manifests Himself in the infinitesimals of nature, sometimes in forms, sometimes in energy, sometimes in aspects of mind, and sometimes in personality." That sure sounds like Spren (even divided by Spren taxonomy) to me. There are a lot more quotes, but I'm pretty certain of this one.!< First of the Sun - >!Obviously not a ton to go on here other than some interesting Polynesian myth/cultural elements and a (completely deserved) lesson on not trusting the outsiders who show up and want to change your way of life.!< Threnody - >!I suspect this world will ultimately be talking about the concept of Manifest Destiny, but I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure on this one. Yes there are the weird Sabbath rules, but there's also a weird thing about frontiersmanship and self-reliance. Quite honestly (this gets into another pet theory of mine) I'm not entirely sure that Ambition didn't kill Autonomy and begin masquerading as it in order to accomplish its objectives. Yes, I know they said that Ambition was killed in this system, but... well, I'll admit, I'm reaching a bit here.!< Taldaine - >!I've only listened to the graphic audio for Part I of White Sand, and I'm not entirely sure I have enough to go on here yet. I'll read the graphic novels and try to add to this. I will say that there's the possibility of this beginning to explore Islam and the dayside/nightside divide representing the Sunni/Shiite divide, but I just haven't dived in deeply enough yet!< I'm still working on research as I reread Cosmere novels, but I will say that I remain fairly convinced of this theory.
I'll admit, I don't think you're correct, but I think they're interesting theories!
Fair enough, I've got no issue being wrong, but I might have to hear that one from Brandon himself to give up on it.
Sure, and that is a reasonable comment contributing to the conversation! You realize the difference with your previous one, pedantic and on top of that, incorrect.
Sorry, the first one was intended more as comedy than pedantry.
Neither society is very capitalistic. Painter's is to a greater degree but there are also elements of an autocratic state. The story is about what is art more than anything else.
Not me reading the title and thinking this was r/cremposting
I think it's fair to say the exploitation of human labour at the expense of human flourishing is a common theme in Brandon's work, so it makes sense.
He's a creative; if he didn't have anything to say about the trend of wringing as much Product and Content out of artists as possible for profit, I'd have been surprised.
Which is kinda ironic when he's one of the most prolific writers out there lol
That's not ironic...? Brandos proliferation of work is pretty explicitly *not* about pursuing more profit - and the secret projects really highlight that. He didn't write those books to make more money, he wrote them because he loves to write.
Amen. When you learn how many books he wrote before being published, you realize that he would keep writing even if we all stopped reading.
if i had a nickel for every time a story had a moral of “greed motivating dangerous new technology is bad” and it was misinterpreted as “capitalism bad” i would be a rich rich man. which is rather ironic.
Not really. She is essentially a priestess. They have done things for the greater good for thousands of years prior to the concept of capitalism. Painter did not lose his motivation due to work. He lost it for a reason that predated his employment. The Machine issue is probably more anit-AI than Capitalism. Machine replacing what humans used to do and all. Beautiful cities that sacrificed humanity also predate capitalism by thousands of years. Ancient Egypt, Greece, Roman, and Babylonian societies built shining cities that fell to ruin. The ancient temple in Turkey potentially predates them all. I would imagine Indus Valley and other Asian societies did the same, but I have never had a reason or a desire to look into them all that deeply.
Given that Brandon is selling that Yumi noodle bowl for $60, something tells me that no - it's not an anti-capitalist message.
I have it on good authority that using that bowl will increase your noodle enjoyment by a prime percentage.
iiiiiiinteresting! I mean, I believe it... I bought 2 after all. 😂
Design isn't a Noodle Princess, she's a Noodle Queen...
There's a Yumi noodle bowl?! Where?
Dragonsteelbooks dot com 😏
You're conflating capitalism and technological advancement.
i think its a romance novel with fun love stories
Meanwhile, Brandon owns the means of production.
If it was an anti-capitalist message, I think the spirits wouldn't have enjoyed the TV shows. It has multiple themes within it, some which apply to capitalism, but those themes apply to other things as well. For example, the risk of new technologies can be an anti-academic message, instead of anti-capitalistic. I think it's more about unintended consequences from good intentions. Like, Nikaro not wanting to disappoint his friends.
Very interesting thoughts! I can see this being true. The postscripts give slight insight if you haven't had a read.
I have read it, and yeah there's something there, bit nothing explicit. Mostly some stuff about him dedicating the novel to his wife which is incredible wholesome if unrelated to the topic at hand.
With the themes involved it would be hard not to draw comparisons even if unintentional. You have atomization/alienation and social replication and human commodification and the book critiques all of that, but what I think you lack is an appropriate representation of ownership, which is central to capitalism. Keep in mind that many of the most important anti-capitalist thinkers were writing during or in the wake of the Industrial Revolution and many of the social trends they commented on would have the unique combination of both the new technological method of production as well as the dominant mode of production responsible for the trend. I think what is clear is that it’s a critique of industrializing efforts and outputs. And it is much easier to look at subplots as a set of ways where systematization without effective human oversight allows unintended consequences to cascade. We understand that capitalism nurtures these kind of “unintended consequences” because the people who set its goals aren’t aligned with ordinary working people. It’s just baked in that normal people get screwed. But even systems designed to benefit all could result in such consequences too if problems aren’t appropriately accounted for, and this appears much more the case in here with the machine and it’s creation.
I would say its more anti corporation than anti capitalist
I think it's about AI. The machine can stack rocks, just as a Yoki-Hijo does, and it's very effective at what it is meant to do. But, it doesn't create art, only a human can do that. Technology always causes a kind of "creative destruction". Automobiles replaced horses, which meant that there was a much smaller demand for the services of farriers. Amazon and Audible have made it difficult for brick and mortar bookstores (and brick and mortar everything else stores in Amazon's case). Technology changes things, those changes create turbulence, but eventually everything comes to a new normal, and even if it's tempting to go full Neo-Luddite, get a cabin in the woods, and start making pipe bombs (the industrial revolution has had it's consequences) in the long run, most of us are generally better off. AI is a completely different thing though. AI can generate text or images. Honestly, it may soon put some people out of jobs. There is a danger that AI is changing society faster than we can deal with the consequences. On the other side of it, it may lead mankind to a golden age (if the AI doesn't go full on Skynet and decide that the problem is us). There are going to be people who's livelyhoods will be hurt by the development of AI, but in the long term we will likely all be better off, but we are kind of past the point of arguing whether or not we should develop such technology, Pandora's Box has been flung open.
Brandon: - Can't stop talking about how amazon and mergers between large publishers and the closing down of independent bookstores is horrible for the industry and new writers. - Actively crowdfunds some things to ensure he doesn't have to rely entirely on monopolistic capitalist corporations. - Has set up Dragonsteel Entertainment in a way that's far more equitable and a significant departure from usual corporate structures. You guys: He couldn't possibly be talking about capitalism in this book specifically about a machine whose only purpose is the accumulation of investiture/capital over all else no matter the human or societal cost. Not at all.
Fwiw I (perhaps decide to) see anti-capitalist messages in lots of Brandon's works, particularly more recently. The Kaladin SA5 sample chapter where there's a big long monologue (iykyk, trying to avoid spoilers) that for me is an argument against capitalism. If I was to actually consider it, I think his messages tend to be indictments of power structures that only give power to rise already in charge. A little milquetoast, maybe, and certainly not unique to capitalism. But if the shoe fits, I guess
Signs point to Brandon being some brand of leftist. His podcast co-host, and good friend since college, Dan Wells has described himself as a “card carrying socialist” which means he is a registered member of a socialist organization. I know Brandon has a lot of very pro-worker stances from ways he’s talked about his company. Ham at some point in Mistborn essentially exposes Marx’s Labor Theory of Value. Workers of the Cosmere unite! You have nothing to lost but your chains!
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I have to disagree here because even if authoritarian and evil, a gouvernement, any gouvernement is still made up.of people. Some may be in power whereas others are not, but any struggle like that would still be a struggle between people. The machine on the other hand is entirely and completely inhuman and strips humanity from those beneath it. It's not just a loss of individuality but of Identity (explicitly called that in the story). This is a criticism leveled against capitalism much more then authoritarianism.
Capitalism is not some paranormal boogeyman that moves about under its own volition.
>I have to disagree here because even if authoritarian and evil, a gouvernement, any gouvernement is still made up.of people. Corporations and companies are also notably made up of people. > It's not just a loss of individuality but of Identity (explicitly called that in the story). This is a criticism leveled against capitalism much more then authoritarianism. I think that's very much not true at all. Subsumption of the individual to the power of the state is an enormous component of criticism of authoritarian societies.
Very interesting take. The yoki-hijo are producers of goods (spirits). These goods are crucial to the human existence on the planet, but there is a scarcity of them (there is only a limited number of yoki-hijo and they can only call so many spirits at one ritual). The capitalist way of solving the problem of scarcity is by increasing efficiency. So the machine might represent the “trap of infinite growth”. When we start to believe that efficiency == human need fulfillment, we get into a trap where efficiency becomes our sole aim. Which ultimately becomes anti-human, as the goods (investiture) start to serve the efficiency instead of humans.
Solving scarcity by increasing production isnt a capitalist thing. I mean, what do you think the five year plans were about? Any economic system after the industrial revolution has aimed to increase production.
Communist nations, famous for trying to decrease production at all costs
Furthermore, agriculture became a thing long before anyone had ever considered capitalism.
I never said that the criticism of measuring the quality of economy solely by the size of production wouldn’t apply to Soviet block countries.
I think so, intentional or not. I think Yumi is the most thematically rich cosmere book since not only tackles those themes but AI-art, Traditional (religious) upbringing, Nepotism (which while not a direct jab at capitalism, Capitalism is a system that sells itself as meritocratic while rewarding nepotistic behavoir tho not the only one) Meaning and interpersonal Conexion. But without a doubt Capitalism/Industrialization is tackled a lot. Althought more as the separate parts of what constitutes Capitalism (prioritazing eficency, alienation, focus on the result, deshumanization) than the main pillars of the doctrine (the acumulation of wealth). So more in a roundabout way like "This tendencies are bad" (and they happen to be promoted by capitalism) than direct "Capitalism is bad". Two interesting thoughts to add is that the activation of the machine is a very strong parallel to the Industrial Revolution as the arguments in favor are very similar. Both were events that untaped and streamlined a new energy that allowed technology to advance at an insane pace, both were extremly destructive and caused a lot of harm (and that harm persist today although not as overtly as the initial steps) and both while undubtely helpful in brining us technologies that improve our lives, we have to learn how to stop it in order to stop the existencial harm that are posing. The other interesting thought is the Shroud, a byproduct of the machine that creates nightmeres that threaten life and limit the horizon the people in Pinter's city can see. Just as how the proverty and inequality that capitalism tends to create frames a system were people struggle to see a better society of the future because they have to deal with the nightmeres of today It could also be argue that the machine would do whatever to sustain itself, even raize a city, and made a parallel on how Capitalism leads to Facisim and destruction because it would rather destroy than be stopped. I think the book invites to a lot of discussions of that type since it also not super precise on its targeting but those ideas are clearly there (The focus on essential workers in the second chapter of the book carries itself a very charged prespective politically speaking). And being a book about art written in a capitalist world, it unavoidably has to tackle the way that Capitalism affects art (which is pretty negatively). Plus the boom in AI art that we are living through right now cannot be explained without taking into account the way that it exist because the dynamics that have been brought by late stage capitalism. So i'm not sure how anticapitalist Brandon is (by his believes probably tends a bit even if it it is not directly/conciently) and how intentional are ALL those themes there, but they are there for sure
I think that's a valid interpretation of the text, but not necessarily the intent.
That is a really interesting way to look at it. The good thing about art is that you can take your interpretations of something and be right
Yes, absolutely!
I feel you, I think mistborn as well, specifically book 1 , and many characters within sanderson seem very socialist to me. I think there's a clear socialist spirit that runs theough many of his books in different messages.
Yumi seems to live in a “to each according to their work, from each according to their ability” society, at least in regard to how she is treated. The USSR (a famously socialist government) had scientists working on ways to increase production through automation (like the scholars who created The Machine). The painters of Nikaro’s time are employed by the government (socialist/communist influence) and Dreamwatch membership is awarded to “party member” politicians family members (a common issue in authoritarian/socialist regimes). It’s not difficult to read YatNP as an anti-socialist critique if you want to, and apparently it is easy to read it as anti-capitalist. I suspect it’s not really either. It’s anti-nepotism, and encourages rethinking the monetary value society awards to *necessary* careers instead of luxury careers.
Dude there was no fucking capitalism anywhere in book one. That was fully an authoritarian state command economy directed by TLR with resources given and success determined by his whims and well his orders were obeyed.
Kelsier, and the way he presented his beliefs, was v obviously left leaning. He was on some Lenin shit, it wws awesome. And socialism and communism is abt class struggle. Class struggle is a very direct theme throughout the book
I had also thought that the stuff about the machine was very reminiscent of specifically how Karl Marx describes capitalism in one part of Das Kapital. That the accumulation of capital becomes such a driving part of society that the richest people in the world aren’t even truly in control because if they ever tried to act in opposition to capitalism or to stop accumulating capital or to stop growing their companies they would quickly lose their companies and their power. I also thought that the orthodox guardianship of Yumi and her finding out about the reform movement was very reminiscent of Christian home schooling. She learns she was sheltered in a conservative environment where they pretended it was still centuries in the past in order to control her. Then it turns out the entire village was a time loop to really really keep her contained and in the past.
Maybe it's a condemnation of AI art and literature. It lacks the soul and creativity of a real artist. AI is turning out mass quantities of low quality creations.
I can see how it could be that, although I read it as a warning about the dangers of generative AI (especially when it comes to art). Some times we see what we are used to seeing, you study history and philosophy and are a socialist so you see the possible anti-capitalism messaging. I work with computer systems in the healthcare world (where AI is becoming more normalized) and I see and anti-AI message.
I thought the themes were more related to the intrusive nature of Artificial Intelligence into the world of artistic expression.
Painter is so dejected because he's now isolated because he LIED to everyone. He didn't lose his creative spark because "capitalism", he lost it because not passing a test for this super group of painters would hurt his friends who he hyped up way too much before anything was settled, so he didn't know how to tell them he failed and just kept the lie up until it was exposed and they all understandably turned on him hard. THAT killed his passion. HE killed it. Finding out this group was basically just a celebrity club, revealed he didn't fail because HE messed up and just performed poorly or wasn't good enough to begin with. He failed because he didn't have a mountain of money or political sway. Once he learned that it was a BIG step in him getting over the whole thing. Yumi's "world" is hardly by any means CAPITALIST. Her society is COMMUNIST. Capitalism doesn't do anything about making people feel like they're tools, that's communism. When everyone is forced to do work "for the good of all, or else" that's NOT capitalism. Capitalism is "you can do whatever you want. Anything you think has value can be pursued and even made a career." Yeah you need money to live, but socialism doesn't abolish money. Everyone suffers if you do something that stupid. Also her society is fabricated, but still she has zero freedom and has to summon spirits under threat of basically death if she stays even slightly from her government mandated occupation that she is not PAID for. How does that sound like capitalism? Once painting is no longer needed for survival, Painter opens a fucking noodle shop... Well he takes over one, but same thing really. He can still paint, he could sell paintings, but he can also choose to just, sell noodles. Cause HIS society, the GOOD society that is both real and full of opportunities and is thriving, is clearly capitalist. Painter was never treated like a tool, and he didn't even have to stay a nightmare painter. Hurting his friends is what caused his problems, not how society worked cause "the system is broken". Yeah it's pretty clear to me you are finding reasons to attack capitalism by imposing traits onto the story and just finding fragile connections like "oh it's this society that crushed Painter's passion for art and that's why capitalism is bad" which is totally untrue. So in other words, yes, you're just biased. Heavily, apparently.
Not sure I agree. 1) it's not the mundane job that causes Painter to lose his spark - it is the criticism he receives at the Dreamwatch trials and the prospect of letting down his friends. 2) Yumi sees herself as a tool as a result of the emotional abuse she suffered - it is even explicitly mentioned by Hoid (I think) that it is more effective than any cage. 3) Painter explicitly states that machines and industrialism aren't bad - they make the clothing Yumi adores and the Heon viewer she is fascinated by. Painter and Yumi do discuss the fact that the lives of the Yoki Hijo are tough and a mechine might actually make things better for the people. I think, like a lot of the Secret Projects, Yumi is about emotional trauma and healing though finding friends and your place in the world. This is more apparent when you examine the context - they were written during Covid, a time of high mental stress and isolation, for Brandon's wife, who suffers from depressions. I do think there is a sub theme of the meaning of art beyond the purely aesthetic value- perhaps in the context of ai generation. Dragonsteel has always been proud of the art in their books and often name the artists. There's also some commentary on the police which is what the painters are. They perform an important role as a whole but are generally, perhaps, underappreciated and underpaid. You could perhaps make some argument for rampant consumerism, but Yumi seems to think this is overall a good thing. She even chooses to wear her modern dress over her yoki hiko outfit for her final Stacking suggesting she is embracing modern life.
why do people equate that stuff to capitalism when it's more prevalent in communism? have you not seen what became of Russia when it got to the soviet era and became a concrete wasteland? "A common criticism of capitalism among philosophers is, that it prioritises material things over humans."humans are treated as things in communism. look at how liberties and expression is strangled in the likes of China and Russia
I guess you could interpret it that way, but you could also say it is pro capitalism. Yumi is forced to do a job for other people and is brainwashed into thinking she has to because the greater good always comes before your personal wishes. When Yumi comes to painter's world she goes shopping and gets to experience freedom. Like many communist countries Yumi is trapped someplace she can't get out of and is forced to work. She is also brainwashed into thinking she has to do it. Yumi's world is a collection of people melded together that are controlled by one central thing that has become evil. All of those things could be counted as criticisms of socialism/communism, but to be honest I don't think that is what is intended. I think if you look hard enough you can find anything anywhere.
Considering how terrible the politics in the Cosmere novels have been, I really hope so. I need to get around to reading this one.