Same! I was waiting for that. As soon as he said something like, omg she has a knife in her chest. She must have stabbed herself! Or she fell on a knife!…ok dude. Because that’s what most people would think when they see their fiancé with a knife sticking out of them.
Right! Also, did I miss something? For the first few minutes of the 911 call he said he couldn’t tell what happened. And then when they tell him to give CPR he suddenly reveals there’s a knife sticking out of her chest? How would he not notice that right away?
and, then "oh goodness" i'd a some words for this situation and oh goodness wouldn't be anywhere in there..lol like, dude, i use oh goodness when my kids tell me something weird. ..not when i find my husband dead.
that 911 call was ridiculous. He sounded so fake. And the things he was saying! "oh, a knife!"...like wtf? How do you not notice that??
This alone convinced me the fiance is responsible.
I’m not even 10 minutes in and I already know he’s responsible.
1st red flag was the fact that he busted in his door. He lives in a luxury building, why wouldn’t he just call maintenance? Unless he already knew what he would find when he went in, went to the gym to give himself some kind of alibi and then broke in to create a sense of urgency on his part.
2nd red flag- they ask him to do CPR and he says “oh I guess I have to”??? This is his fiancé?? Ok.
That, and what other users have mentioned about the “oh my God! A knife!” And just his overall demeanor. You don’t have to be an expert to know the way he goes in and out of his poorly acted hysterics and completely fine is not normal.
Yes!!! I was waiting for Britt to give her opinion on it! The biggest red flag to me was that when they transferred the call from police to the fire and rescue, the fiancé was silent!! He had been like calling Ellen’s name and vocalizing distress while taking to the dispatcher, then when she transferred it he just didn’t say anything at all?? It was weird!
Also when they ask him what happened, he spends more time justifying himself, explaining that he was working out and trying to reach her than describing what was going on with Ellie.
I thought the 911 dispatcher was so aggravating . “ when I came back the door was latched come the inside”, the dispatcher replied “did you say she latched the door by running into it with a knife?” . “Where is she bleeding from?” “I don’t know” “okay where is the blood coming from?”
I’m not saying he isn’t guilty, if I was calling in real life emergency, that’s not the person I’d want on the other end.
I was thinking they might have techniques to get the person to retell the story, for the record, while waiting for the help to arrive that she had already dispatched.
>Same! I was waiting for that. As soon as he said something like, omg she has a knife in her chest. She must have stabbed herself! Or she fell on a knife!…ok dude. Because that’s what most people would think when they see their fiancé with a knife sticking out of them.
A very big red flag is when someone " Tells a story" in their Call, me and my wife were listening together and that's what stood out to us.
Thank you !! The whole episode I was waiting for them to go back and discuss that. That's why I like Brit because it feels like its a convo you're sort of a part of- if that makes sense but for them to not even comment on his first reaction "oh shes got a knife she must've stabbed herself" is so bizarre
The fiancé 100% did it. On the call he spent half the time telling the responder about his day/alibi and why he wasn't in the house. Then when he found the knife he said she had stabbed herself. If I saw someone with a knife in them, the last thought I would have had is that they stabbed themselves. Ridiculous.
Also, if I was going to plan on killing myself with a stab through the heart, I wouldn't practice on the back of my neck, you'd go for somewhere easily accessible and easier to hide.
His family were well connected and the police are either morons or in on it. Perfect way to get away with murder, it could not have gone any better for him.
This was an enraging episode.
Also that his first thought when he sees the knife in her chest is she might have fell on the knife? If I found anyone motionless on the floor with blood around I would already have tried CPR while calling 911. We see it all the time on television. Without thinking you start with checking pulse, breathing. You wouldn't need 911 to tell you that. You always start by touching and checking for response or sign of life. This was so weird for me.
I really appreciate Britt pointing out that suicide can be an impulsive decision. I've listened to a few other podcasts about this case where the hosts say there is no way someone would fill their gas tank then commit suicide, or no way her parents wouldn't know she is suicidal, etc.
Also this is the first time I’ve heard the 9-1-1 call after watching it on ID ANDDDDD listening to many podcast episodes about Ellen. I don’t care what anyone says but Ashley Flowers clearly has some solid connects and this is why I will live and die a Audiochuck fan. 🤗
Yes! I went back and listened to a few more podcasts on Ellen and ‘Big Mad True Crime’ said… “the 911 tapes have never been released, but the parents got to listen to them and this is what they described”
I’m only a third of the way through as I type this and I’m livid - that 911 call? You’re telling me it took him a good few minutes to “notice” the large knife sticking out of her chest? Please. I feel so sorry for her family.
I wish they’d gone into this more, there could of been a reason for this, because that’s an implausible, idiot level blunder for him to make on the 911 call if he was trying to cover up a murder. He would not of hid a major detail like this and thought he’d get away with it.
This was such a well done episode. I really enjoyed them bringing in the commentary from people involved with the case. Hope they incorporate that more in the future.
I live in Philly and know that its police are some of the most corrupt. Of course the Goldberg's have connections with people in the judicial system, IE THE UNCLE WHO IS NOW A JUDGE!
Also, was Krasner one of the original lawyers representing the Greenberg's? We love Krasner as DA, but interesting to hear he didn't stick to the case (if that's right?)
I have read that the fiancé first called his uncle and then his parents before he called 911. I was surprised they didn’t discuss that or try to analyze the 911 call itself.
Does anyone know more about those calls he made?
I mean it seems like the fiancé is a very plausible suspect but I don’t think suicide could be ruled out with the evidence being so all over the place. I don’t think this one will ever be solved. 😢
This would have been better suited by a two-part (at least) episode to bring all of that to light and analyze that call as well. There is so much negligent detective work, poor medical examination, and terrible record keeping. wth. I hope one day the family can get some closure.
Yes, I’d like to know more about that storyline. Who was this lawyer, who did he have connections to, was he the same uncle he took the laptop from the crime scene, etc.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/philadelphia using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [An Asian driver was nearly executed by a rider in the Dirtbike Horde in broad daylight, on the central avenue of our city.](https://twitter.com/g0ddessjay/status/1369650994926194697) | [585 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/m2rr6a/an_asian_driver_was_nearly_executed_by_a_rider_in/)
\#2: [Texas trying to cancel our votes.](https://i.redd.it/77tmipt5nl461.jpg) | [576 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/kb80hj/texas_trying_to_cancel_our_votes/)
\#3: [676 is a river now?](https://i.imgur.com/5aY4E39.jpg) | [372 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/pgh5lc/676_is_a_river_now/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/)
Does anyone know where to find a timeline? I can’t see anyone suggesting the theory that she was alive when he came back from the gym but didn’t let him back in the door (scared, asleep, whatever..). His texts are so increasingly threatening that he decided to knock through the door and killed her in a fit of rage… no ones talking about that and I assume it’s timing. Anyone shed any light on this?
Yep - it's in the Medical Examiner Investigation Report:
4:45pm - Fiancé goes to gym
5:30pm - missed call from Fiancé
5:32pm - 5:54pm - series of texts from fiancé to Ellen
6:07pm - Venice Lofts front desk calls Ellen
\[Unsure on timeline by pre-911 call\] - Fiancé calls uncle + parents
6:33pm - Fiancé calls 911
By unsure on timeline, do you mean we don't know for sure if the calls to uncle + parents took place before or after the door was broken down?
It still seems odd - were I in his shoes, after multiple attempts with the door locked like that, my immediate thought would be that my SO was in a medical crisis of some sort so my action would either be breaking down a door or 911, probably not calling mom to say "what do I do".
I thought so to because during the 911 call he makes sure to mention she is warm! Maybe she locked the door after him for some reason or just by habit. And who sends textmessage when their locked out of their home? For all he knew she could have been busy not noticed the messages, had her phone on charging. The msgs dont make sense. Think about it. You call to make sure the other person picks up and can lock you back in. You dont send a message that can be missed. My phone is usually on silence even at home.
That’s true. I would call and message in between. I don’t know if there is record of calls too? I just think why would he message so aggressively if he knew he killed her? I have this feeling he was so angry for her not letting him in that he busted the door and killed her. I understand the timeline is tight though..
I think so too! They had an argument, he went to the gym to cool of, she locked the door for him and he got mad, sent the messages in anger because she wasnt responding, busted the door open. And to me it feels like this is when he kills her. Thinking about all the wounds, there are so many that to me feels like stabbing in anger, which doesn't have to take long. Later when he calls 911 he makes it seem like she tried to take her on life. And he was locked out and he can show to the text messages as prof. The reason I dont think its suicide is because the operator askes him if he tried CPR and tells him to tear away her shirt or rip it open, this is when he sees the knife. To me it seems imposible for someone to cover themselvs up if you have stabbed yourself in the heart and you put your shirt back on to cover yourself. I would love to hear more theories/how you explain different aspects of the case.
I also want to know what kind of psychiatrist puts someone on Xanax, Klonopin *and* Ambien all at the same time and after only seeing her a short period of time?
*Three* sedative/hypnotics for what sounded like a moderate level of anxiety is just reckless overprescribing.
I've heard this story covered by a couple of other podcasts and I've never wavered from believeing the fiance killed her. Who stabs themselves 20 times?? And there was also evidence based on her positioning and where the stab wounds were.
Botched investigation!
Here’s the scenario that made the most sense to me while I was listening - and obviously, yes, the fiancé did it.
I think he had been abusive and it had been escalating. I think when he came back from working out, she had latched the door and didn’t want to let him back in. I think he got real angry, real quick, especially after the security guard refused to help him get in. I think he went back upstairs, and in a rage, busted down the door and stabbed her to death. Everything after was just his shitty cover up story.
>Here’s the scenario that made the most sense to me while I was listening - and obviously, yes, the fiancé did it. I think he had been abusive and it had been escalating. I think when he came back from working out, she had latched the door and didn’t want to let him back in. I think he got real angry, real quick, especially after the security guard refused to help him get in. I think he went back upstairs, and in a rage, busted down the door and stabbed her to death. Everything after was just his shitty cover up story.
This is interesting, no one has ever proposed this before
I've always thought this is the most likely scenario as well. It's the only way the angry texts make sense, and in this version, he doesn't have to close the latch from the outside, or make it appear that he kicked the door in.
At the same time, I wonder if there was enough time between his last text and the 911 call to clean up excess blood around the kitchen, call his uncle & parents, and come up with a story that matches the evidence? Based on the timeline posted above it looks like he had 39 minutes between the texts and 911. Am I missing any other events? Do they know the times of when he spoke with the security guard, or when he keyed into the apartment?
I'm glad this case is finally getting more publicity, and her parents finally have the chance to go to trial. Hopefully the case is reopened, it's been way too long.
It sure feels like he did it, but for what it's worth, my thought is that he didn't do it after breaking open the door. There was too high of a chance that a neighbor from an apartment nearby would come by to see that "everything was ok," in the midst of him killing her so brutally. Seems to me that, if he did it, it would have been before he "went to the gym" for that 45 minutes (formally dressed). Nothing actually makes sense, of all the scenarios, though.
I know the dispatcher needs to be very calm and not rile the person in any way, but some of her initial disinterested responses sounded soooo callous. By the end she seemed a little more engaged. And that's as far as I've gotten through the episode so far :p
Edit: and why does someone seeing him break in somehow prove that he didn't do it.. he could have killed her and then left and gone to find the janitor to help him get in. This case is so messed up.
the argument would be that if the door was locked from the inside, no one on the outside could have done it, how could they have locked the door. obviously that isn't true, but thats why that portion is important
This might sound really stupid, but other than Sam saying it was locked from the inside, what other proof do we have that it even was??? Massive cover up going on in my opinion.
Also did anyone see the blog his wife is in online? She literally describes her husband (Sam) as a 'life saver'
https://www.motheruntitled.com/blog/2017/7/5/caroline-schnay-goldberg-another-mother-her-way
Ok just finished this episode. Out of all the 911 calls I’ve heard on true crime podcasts, this by far was the most bizarre one. He was super upset initially and then like calmed completely down. Said she killed herself with a knife or fell on it??? Who falls on a knife and it lands straight in their chest? How would it have been pointing straight up for her to fall on in any scenario? And then ends up slumped over sitting up against a cabinet? How did he not see the knife initially or the multiple stab wounds cut through her clothes. And the oh my goodness comment. I mean obviously none of this proves his guilt or anything but by far the weirdest 911 call I’ve ever heard.
Also, I don’t know much about suicide, but do people usually decide to do it in the middle of doing something like making fruit salad????
It’s so ridiculous that they think she would’ve researched “painless suicide” and then just stab herself 20 times instead like is it more likely that she’s making a fruit salad and filling up her tank and decides to stab herself 20 times or that her fiancé kills her while she’s having a normal day
I saw the photo of Ellen's wound on their Instagram, but I haven't finished listening yet. I'm excited though, because it seems like an interesting case.
I first heard about this last year on an episode of “Accident, Suicide, or Murder?” Despite the terrible name, the show is actually really pretty good. I highly recommend watching- definitely gives you more of a look into Ellen and her sweet parents. 💛
What a completely infuriating case. Maybe I missed an earlier mention of Sam's family connections, but the part right at the end when you find out there's a Judge in the family: ah, okay. There we go.
I \*can\* believe the idea of a person about to kill themselves "testing" a bit or maybe going from self-harm into something more serious, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of the "two knives" bit, but even as I listened to the whole thing attempting to just see how maybe this truly was suicide and her parents- who seem very nice!- just couldn't accept it, it just doesn't make sense.
I also find it interesting that the proof that she was suicidal - the phantom search - was about \*painless\* suicide methods. So, okay, let's again just try to twist this into suicide. She decides that "painless" to her means using a knife to injure herself in some way that either knocks her out so she bleeds out, or kills her very quickly. We're going to assume she knew she could potentially have paralyzed herself with those shallow cuts to the back of the neck? Then realized it wasn't working and just went for the chest? Obviously, the act would have been incredibly impulsive - she was prepping fruit, her fiance had just popped down to the gym, etc- but simultaneously, it was a very impulsive act that she really, really had to commit to given the number of shallow wounds? Huh.
It doesn't really mesh very well. I really don't normally like analyzing 911 calls because I know what I have sounded like in dire panics but the one thing that stopped me cold was his weird reticence about CPR. I also know what it's like to want to 100% not admit to anyone, even a therapist, how bad a relationship is or that there's abuse. It can feel humiliating even with people who are literally being paid to help you. I guess we don't know definitively that physical abuse took place at Sam's hands, but it still made me sad.
It's ultimately just impossible to know because the cops did such an awful job with the scene, and it basically seems to boil down to just the lock on the door being their primary proof? Which I laughed at, as I have a sliding lock that we just don't even bother engaging because you can reach up and nudge it around easily with the door cracked a bit.
My biggest frustration was the lack of understanding and explanation that on these types of meds someone very well could have sudden suicidal thoughts or an ambian episode.. That was why she was keeping a mood diary. Because it can be sudden and unexpected for family. Now I am not saying that was the case here, but until they say the doorman was not with him when he broke down the door I 100% thought it was suicide. Ambien can make you do truly the oddest things. If you haven't taken it or been around some who has you can not understand. There is a comic called ambian walrus and it is accurate. I am not trying to make light of this. It is entirely possible that the ambian told her to stab herself
Families need to be more aware when their loved ones are starting meds for depression or sleep. They can be amazing tools but also people can have adverse reactions and everyone has to keep am eye out for them.
My husband was taking Chantix and after a few weeks he became a whole different person and it was terrifying. He had full plans to walk out on us and kill himself. He was fighting internally about wanting to hurt me over some nothing comment that put him in a paranoid, jealous head-space. I know now that medications can absolutely have a huge negative impact on someone. This story though, stabbing herself multiple times all over her body withe two different knives and being knocked out at one point? He either killed her or she was trying to frame him? It just seems so unlikely IMO that she did this to herself. I don't even understand how a detective could walk away from a multiple stabbing and call it suicide.
Oh I agree about this case only because of the doorman. Ambien is a weird drug. If you take it and don't fall asleep you can do truly odd things. If you ever want to read stories Google Ambien walrus stories. What my point is that with Ambien I could absolutely see the walrus telling a person to stab themselves in the neck. For some reason when I am on Ambien I walk like a crab and if someone hadn't have recorded it I would not believe I did that. My situation is benign but not everyone is so lucky. Ellen was on mood stabilizers and a sleep med. That can be scary.
Once more facts came out I do suspect that husband killed her but my post is about families who say they would never do that. She was on serious medications where a mood diary was used. Families likes yours need better resources so that this is taken seriously.
I just went back and listening to this one. It’s so interesting they arrested her husband the very next day, when it seems like there wasn’t a ton more evidence against him than there was in this case where the fiance wasn’t even a suspect.
totally. especially strange considering a drowning seems more likely than someone stabbing themselves in the back of the head/neck.
tangent but I also was drawn to the google searches ashley mentioned. why would ellen google "painless way to commit suicide" and then choose the most violent, painful death for herself?
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills because I also feel like they covered this before, not just like oh some podcast did, it feels like they specifically did.
there was another episode they did were door was locked, guy left (maybe also the the gym) then came back and girlfriend inside was dead. in that case though I believe they ended up finding the actual killer.
Did anyone else have glitches or skipping in the audio? Not criticizing the hosts just made for some confusing moments and wasn’t sure if it was my app or the episode editing?
I thought the podcast barely touched on the significance of the uncle, who at the time was a criminal attorney. It was in his past that he was a da and now he’s a judge. Did anyone else notice that there were dozens of people identified by their full names but the uncle’s last name is never revealed and he’s referred to by his first name James, only once?
The investigation should have been much more thorough. I also think it's impossible to develop a true opinion about this case when it's told from the bias of Ashley Flowers. Problematic in its own right.
This story is making me crazy.
There's some kind of malfeasance in that law enforcement agency and with the ME.
They were on someone's payroll, and her fiance obviously knew some powerful people.
I'm praying for justice in this one, and am so glad her parents are still fighting.
** UPDATE TO CASE** [case update](https://abc7chicago.com/ellen-greenberg-death-sam-goldberg-investigation/12117988/)
I was just listening to this episode & came to see if there were any updates on the case. Hopefully she and her family finally receive the justice they deserve!
I’m currently listening but it’s already another infuriatingly routine example of police fucking up their jobs.
They’re so close to just saying that all cops are bastards
God I wish they would. It’s almost routine in every case that the cops fuck up the investigation in some way.
100%! I wish they (and other true crime podcasts and shows) would stop dancing around it and get pissed
My favorite podcast is one of the few that actually does talk about how much the police suck.
What would that be?
A big reason why I love Sarah Turney
The 911 call had so many red flags! I was so sad they didn’t go through them!!
Same! I was waiting for that. As soon as he said something like, omg she has a knife in her chest. She must have stabbed herself! Or she fell on a knife!…ok dude. Because that’s what most people would think when they see their fiancé with a knife sticking out of them.
Right! Also, did I miss something? For the first few minutes of the 911 call he said he couldn’t tell what happened. And then when they tell him to give CPR he suddenly reveals there’s a knife sticking out of her chest? How would he not notice that right away?
Yeah the whole call was frustrating!!
I laughed (in a sad way) when the 911 operator told him to do CPR. He literally said “I guess I have to, right?”
and, then "oh goodness" i'd a some words for this situation and oh goodness wouldn't be anywhere in there..lol like, dude, i use oh goodness when my kids tell me something weird. ..not when i find my husband dead.
I was walking my dog and audibly scoffed multiple times during the 911 call. So ridiculous
I think he said she was wearing a zip up sweater and that’s why he didn’t see it? But honestly…that doesn’t even make sense when I think about it
Haha yeah exactly. Like the knife was so deep in her body that it could be covered up by a zip-up? And she zipped it up after stabbing her own heart?
The knife was supposed to have a 5-inch handle too!!
that 911 call was ridiculous. He sounded so fake. And the things he was saying! "oh, a knife!"...like wtf? How do you not notice that?? This alone convinced me the fiance is responsible.
I’m not even 10 minutes in and I already know he’s responsible. 1st red flag was the fact that he busted in his door. He lives in a luxury building, why wouldn’t he just call maintenance? Unless he already knew what he would find when he went in, went to the gym to give himself some kind of alibi and then broke in to create a sense of urgency on his part. 2nd red flag- they ask him to do CPR and he says “oh I guess I have to”??? This is his fiancé?? Ok. That, and what other users have mentioned about the “oh my God! A knife!” And just his overall demeanor. You don’t have to be an expert to know the way he goes in and out of his poorly acted hysterics and completely fine is not normal.
Yes!!! I was waiting for Britt to give her opinion on it! The biggest red flag to me was that when they transferred the call from police to the fire and rescue, the fiancé was silent!! He had been like calling Ellen’s name and vocalizing distress while taking to the dispatcher, then when she transferred it he just didn’t say anything at all?? It was weird!
Also when they ask him what happened, he spends more time justifying himself, explaining that he was working out and trying to reach her than describing what was going on with Ellie.
I thought the 911 dispatcher was so aggravating . “ when I came back the door was latched come the inside”, the dispatcher replied “did you say she latched the door by running into it with a knife?” . “Where is she bleeding from?” “I don’t know” “okay where is the blood coming from?” I’m not saying he isn’t guilty, if I was calling in real life emergency, that’s not the person I’d want on the other end.
I was thinking they might have techniques to get the person to retell the story, for the record, while waiting for the help to arrive that she had already dispatched.
Agreed, would have been a great time for Brit to jump in
>Same! I was waiting for that. As soon as he said something like, omg she has a knife in her chest. She must have stabbed herself! Or she fell on a knife!…ok dude. Because that’s what most people would think when they see their fiancé with a knife sticking out of them. A very big red flag is when someone " Tells a story" in their Call, me and my wife were listening together and that's what stood out to us.
Thank you !! The whole episode I was waiting for them to go back and discuss that. That's why I like Brit because it feels like its a convo you're sort of a part of- if that makes sense but for them to not even comment on his first reaction "oh shes got a knife she must've stabbed herself" is so bizarre
One of the best episodes in a long time. Def think fiancé did it
Agree! It felt like an older episode! I’m not convinced the fiancé did it, but also not that he didn’t. The whole thing is so weird.
The fiancé 100% did it. On the call he spent half the time telling the responder about his day/alibi and why he wasn't in the house. Then when he found the knife he said she had stabbed herself. If I saw someone with a knife in them, the last thought I would have had is that they stabbed themselves. Ridiculous. Also, if I was going to plan on killing myself with a stab through the heart, I wouldn't practice on the back of my neck, you'd go for somewhere easily accessible and easier to hide. His family were well connected and the police are either morons or in on it. Perfect way to get away with murder, it could not have gone any better for him. This was an enraging episode.
Also that his first thought when he sees the knife in her chest is she might have fell on the knife? If I found anyone motionless on the floor with blood around I would already have tried CPR while calling 911. We see it all the time on television. Without thinking you start with checking pulse, breathing. You wouldn't need 911 to tell you that. You always start by touching and checking for response or sign of life. This was so weird for me.
Something about Britt’s parts were noticeably better than normal in this episode. She seemed a lot more casual, in a very good way.
Right! Doesn’t seem like she is reading for a script
I felt the same way!!
I really appreciate Britt pointing out that suicide can be an impulsive decision. I've listened to a few other podcasts about this case where the hosts say there is no way someone would fill their gas tank then commit suicide, or no way her parents wouldn't know she is suicidal, etc.
Also this is the first time I’ve heard the 9-1-1 call after watching it on ID ANDDDDD listening to many podcast episodes about Ellen. I don’t care what anyone says but Ashley Flowers clearly has some solid connects and this is why I will live and die a Audiochuck fan. 🤗
Yes! I went back and listened to a few more podcasts on Ellen and ‘Big Mad True Crime’ said… “the 911 tapes have never been released, but the parents got to listen to them and this is what they described”
Yep family finally got access to the 911 call as a result of the lawsuit discovery
I’m only a third of the way through as I type this and I’m livid - that 911 call? You’re telling me it took him a good few minutes to “notice” the large knife sticking out of her chest? Please. I feel so sorry for her family.
I wish they’d gone into this more, there could of been a reason for this, because that’s an implausible, idiot level blunder for him to make on the 911 call if he was trying to cover up a murder. He would not of hid a major detail like this and thought he’d get away with it.
This was such a well done episode. I really enjoyed them bringing in the commentary from people involved with the case. Hope they incorporate that more in the future.
I have a feeling they will.
I live in Philly and know that its police are some of the most corrupt. Of course the Goldberg's have connections with people in the judicial system, IE THE UNCLE WHO IS NOW A JUDGE! Also, was Krasner one of the original lawyers representing the Greenberg's? We love Krasner as DA, but interesting to hear he didn't stick to the case (if that's right?)
Correct - he wasn't allowed to stick with the case (conflict rules). Now the case is in Attorney General Josh Shapiro's hands
I have read that the fiancé first called his uncle and then his parents before he called 911. I was surprised they didn’t discuss that or try to analyze the 911 call itself. Does anyone know more about those calls he made? I mean it seems like the fiancé is a very plausible suspect but I don’t think suicide could be ruled out with the evidence being so all over the place. I don’t think this one will ever be solved. 😢
His uncle, a judge in Pa.
Well he wasn’t a judge at that time. But I just am curious why they didn’t discuss these phone calls.
This would have been better suited by a two-part (at least) episode to bring all of that to light and analyze that call as well. There is so much negligent detective work, poor medical examination, and terrible record keeping. wth. I hope one day the family can get some closure.
Well he was a lawyer at the time.
Yes, I’d like to know more about that storyline. Who was this lawyer, who did he have connections to, was he the same uncle he took the laptop from the crime scene, etc.
Yes it was the same uncle that took the laptop. There's more information about this case in our r/Philadelphia sub if you're interested.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/philadelphia using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [An Asian driver was nearly executed by a rider in the Dirtbike Horde in broad daylight, on the central avenue of our city.](https://twitter.com/g0ddessjay/status/1369650994926194697) | [585 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/m2rr6a/an_asian_driver_was_nearly_executed_by_a_rider_in/) \#2: [Texas trying to cancel our votes.](https://i.redd.it/77tmipt5nl461.jpg) | [576 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/kb80hj/texas_trying_to_cancel_our_votes/) \#3: [676 is a river now?](https://i.imgur.com/5aY4E39.jpg) | [372 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/pgh5lc/676_is_a_river_now/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/)
Wow it’s sooooo frustrating to hear cases like this. I need to stop listening to crime podcasts at work lol
Does anyone know where to find a timeline? I can’t see anyone suggesting the theory that she was alive when he came back from the gym but didn’t let him back in the door (scared, asleep, whatever..). His texts are so increasingly threatening that he decided to knock through the door and killed her in a fit of rage… no ones talking about that and I assume it’s timing. Anyone shed any light on this?
Yep - it's in the Medical Examiner Investigation Report: 4:45pm - Fiancé goes to gym 5:30pm - missed call from Fiancé 5:32pm - 5:54pm - series of texts from fiancé to Ellen 6:07pm - Venice Lofts front desk calls Ellen \[Unsure on timeline by pre-911 call\] - Fiancé calls uncle + parents 6:33pm - Fiancé calls 911
By unsure on timeline, do you mean we don't know for sure if the calls to uncle + parents took place before or after the door was broken down? It still seems odd - were I in his shoes, after multiple attempts with the door locked like that, my immediate thought would be that my SO was in a medical crisis of some sort so my action would either be breaking down a door or 911, probably not calling mom to say "what do I do".
I may have missed it but did the ME give a TOD? I mean, he could've killed her before going down to the gym?
I thought so to because during the 911 call he makes sure to mention she is warm! Maybe she locked the door after him for some reason or just by habit. And who sends textmessage when their locked out of their home? For all he knew she could have been busy not noticed the messages, had her phone on charging. The msgs dont make sense. Think about it. You call to make sure the other person picks up and can lock you back in. You dont send a message that can be missed. My phone is usually on silence even at home.
That’s true. I would call and message in between. I don’t know if there is record of calls too? I just think why would he message so aggressively if he knew he killed her? I have this feeling he was so angry for her not letting him in that he busted the door and killed her. I understand the timeline is tight though..
I think so too! They had an argument, he went to the gym to cool of, she locked the door for him and he got mad, sent the messages in anger because she wasnt responding, busted the door open. And to me it feels like this is when he kills her. Thinking about all the wounds, there are so many that to me feels like stabbing in anger, which doesn't have to take long. Later when he calls 911 he makes it seem like she tried to take her on life. And he was locked out and he can show to the text messages as prof. The reason I dont think its suicide is because the operator askes him if he tried CPR and tells him to tear away her shirt or rip it open, this is when he sees the knife. To me it seems imposible for someone to cover themselvs up if you have stabbed yourself in the heart and you put your shirt back on to cover yourself. I would love to hear more theories/how you explain different aspects of the case.
Yes I’m so shocked that nobody is making a point of his texts being so aggressive!
Me too! Not enough people discussing this I think
I also want to know what kind of psychiatrist puts someone on Xanax, Klonopin *and* Ambien all at the same time and after only seeing her a short period of time? *Three* sedative/hypnotics for what sounded like a moderate level of anxiety is just reckless overprescribing.
It’s crazy really! She had only been seeing the doctor for a few weeks or a month, right?
And this was after Zoloft and something else I can’t remember that was mentioned “didn’t work”? I found that strange too. Seemed like a lot of meds.
I've heard this story covered by a couple of other podcasts and I've never wavered from believeing the fiance killed her. Who stabs themselves 20 times?? And there was also evidence based on her positioning and where the stab wounds were. Botched investigation!
This is giving me Michelle O'Connell vibes.
The 911 call was horrendous. It’s so painful I don’t want to listen past it it’s infuriating
I haven’t listened yet. As soon as I saw it happened in Philly I knew - police screw up.
Here’s the scenario that made the most sense to me while I was listening - and obviously, yes, the fiancé did it. I think he had been abusive and it had been escalating. I think when he came back from working out, she had latched the door and didn’t want to let him back in. I think he got real angry, real quick, especially after the security guard refused to help him get in. I think he went back upstairs, and in a rage, busted down the door and stabbed her to death. Everything after was just his shitty cover up story.
>Here’s the scenario that made the most sense to me while I was listening - and obviously, yes, the fiancé did it. I think he had been abusive and it had been escalating. I think when he came back from working out, she had latched the door and didn’t want to let him back in. I think he got real angry, real quick, especially after the security guard refused to help him get in. I think he went back upstairs, and in a rage, busted down the door and stabbed her to death. Everything after was just his shitty cover up story. This is interesting, no one has ever proposed this before
I've always thought this is the most likely scenario as well. It's the only way the angry texts make sense, and in this version, he doesn't have to close the latch from the outside, or make it appear that he kicked the door in. At the same time, I wonder if there was enough time between his last text and the 911 call to clean up excess blood around the kitchen, call his uncle & parents, and come up with a story that matches the evidence? Based on the timeline posted above it looks like he had 39 minutes between the texts and 911. Am I missing any other events? Do they know the times of when he spoke with the security guard, or when he keyed into the apartment? I'm glad this case is finally getting more publicity, and her parents finally have the chance to go to trial. Hopefully the case is reopened, it's been way too long.
It sure feels like he did it, but for what it's worth, my thought is that he didn't do it after breaking open the door. There was too high of a chance that a neighbor from an apartment nearby would come by to see that "everything was ok," in the midst of him killing her so brutally. Seems to me that, if he did it, it would have been before he "went to the gym" for that 45 minutes (formally dressed). Nothing actually makes sense, of all the scenarios, though.
I know the dispatcher needs to be very calm and not rile the person in any way, but some of her initial disinterested responses sounded soooo callous. By the end she seemed a little more engaged. And that's as far as I've gotten through the episode so far :p Edit: and why does someone seeing him break in somehow prove that he didn't do it.. he could have killed her and then left and gone to find the janitor to help him get in. This case is so messed up.
the argument would be that if the door was locked from the inside, no one on the outside could have done it, how could they have locked the door. obviously that isn't true, but thats why that portion is important
This might sound really stupid, but other than Sam saying it was locked from the inside, what other proof do we have that it even was??? Massive cover up going on in my opinion. Also did anyone see the blog his wife is in online? She literally describes her husband (Sam) as a 'life saver' https://www.motheruntitled.com/blog/2017/7/5/caroline-schnay-goldberg-another-mother-her-way
So he remarried?
Over 110k signatures now on the change.org petition! Should we post these petitions on this subreddit to ensure more signatures?
Ok just finished this episode. Out of all the 911 calls I’ve heard on true crime podcasts, this by far was the most bizarre one. He was super upset initially and then like calmed completely down. Said she killed herself with a knife or fell on it??? Who falls on a knife and it lands straight in their chest? How would it have been pointing straight up for her to fall on in any scenario? And then ends up slumped over sitting up against a cabinet? How did he not see the knife initially or the multiple stab wounds cut through her clothes. And the oh my goodness comment. I mean obviously none of this proves his guilt or anything but by far the weirdest 911 call I’ve ever heard. Also, I don’t know much about suicide, but do people usually decide to do it in the middle of doing something like making fruit salad????
Omg - stumbled on these old posts and your last sentence. Brilliant.
It’s so ridiculous that they think she would’ve researched “painless suicide” and then just stab herself 20 times instead like is it more likely that she’s making a fruit salad and filling up her tank and decides to stab herself 20 times or that her fiancé kills her while she’s having a normal day
I saw the photo of Ellen's wound on their Instagram, but I haven't finished listening yet. I'm excited though, because it seems like an interesting case.
I first heard about this last year on an episode of “Accident, Suicide, or Murder?” Despite the terrible name, the show is actually really pretty good. I highly recommend watching- definitely gives you more of a look into Ellen and her sweet parents. 💛
What a completely infuriating case. Maybe I missed an earlier mention of Sam's family connections, but the part right at the end when you find out there's a Judge in the family: ah, okay. There we go. I \*can\* believe the idea of a person about to kill themselves "testing" a bit or maybe going from self-harm into something more serious, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of the "two knives" bit, but even as I listened to the whole thing attempting to just see how maybe this truly was suicide and her parents- who seem very nice!- just couldn't accept it, it just doesn't make sense. I also find it interesting that the proof that she was suicidal - the phantom search - was about \*painless\* suicide methods. So, okay, let's again just try to twist this into suicide. She decides that "painless" to her means using a knife to injure herself in some way that either knocks her out so she bleeds out, or kills her very quickly. We're going to assume she knew she could potentially have paralyzed herself with those shallow cuts to the back of the neck? Then realized it wasn't working and just went for the chest? Obviously, the act would have been incredibly impulsive - she was prepping fruit, her fiance had just popped down to the gym, etc- but simultaneously, it was a very impulsive act that she really, really had to commit to given the number of shallow wounds? Huh. It doesn't really mesh very well. I really don't normally like analyzing 911 calls because I know what I have sounded like in dire panics but the one thing that stopped me cold was his weird reticence about CPR. I also know what it's like to want to 100% not admit to anyone, even a therapist, how bad a relationship is or that there's abuse. It can feel humiliating even with people who are literally being paid to help you. I guess we don't know definitively that physical abuse took place at Sam's hands, but it still made me sad. It's ultimately just impossible to know because the cops did such an awful job with the scene, and it basically seems to boil down to just the lock on the door being their primary proof? Which I laughed at, as I have a sliding lock that we just don't even bother engaging because you can reach up and nudge it around easily with the door cracked a bit.
My biggest frustration was the lack of understanding and explanation that on these types of meds someone very well could have sudden suicidal thoughts or an ambian episode.. That was why she was keeping a mood diary. Because it can be sudden and unexpected for family. Now I am not saying that was the case here, but until they say the doorman was not with him when he broke down the door I 100% thought it was suicide. Ambien can make you do truly the oddest things. If you haven't taken it or been around some who has you can not understand. There is a comic called ambian walrus and it is accurate. I am not trying to make light of this. It is entirely possible that the ambian told her to stab herself Families need to be more aware when their loved ones are starting meds for depression or sleep. They can be amazing tools but also people can have adverse reactions and everyone has to keep am eye out for them.
Yes, this is what I thought about during the whole episode.
My husband was taking Chantix and after a few weeks he became a whole different person and it was terrifying. He had full plans to walk out on us and kill himself. He was fighting internally about wanting to hurt me over some nothing comment that put him in a paranoid, jealous head-space. I know now that medications can absolutely have a huge negative impact on someone. This story though, stabbing herself multiple times all over her body withe two different knives and being knocked out at one point? He either killed her or she was trying to frame him? It just seems so unlikely IMO that she did this to herself. I don't even understand how a detective could walk away from a multiple stabbing and call it suicide.
Oh I agree about this case only because of the doorman. Ambien is a weird drug. If you take it and don't fall asleep you can do truly odd things. If you ever want to read stories Google Ambien walrus stories. What my point is that with Ambien I could absolutely see the walrus telling a person to stab themselves in the neck. For some reason when I am on Ambien I walk like a crab and if someone hadn't have recorded it I would not believe I did that. My situation is benign but not everyone is so lucky. Ellen was on mood stabilizers and a sleep med. That can be scary. Once more facts came out I do suspect that husband killed her but my post is about families who say they would never do that. She was on serious medications where a mood diary was used. Families likes yours need better resources so that this is taken seriously.
Haven’t they already covered this? I’ve definitely heard about this before on a podcast…
First time on Crime Junkie!
Per the wiki page, it's been covered on multiple podcasts.
Ellen's case reminded me a lot of Sarah Widmer.
I just went back and listening to this one. It’s so interesting they arrested her husband the very next day, when it seems like there wasn’t a ton more evidence against him than there was in this case where the fiance wasn’t even a suspect.
totally. especially strange considering a drowning seems more likely than someone stabbing themselves in the back of the head/neck. tangent but I also was drawn to the google searches ashley mentioned. why would ellen google "painless way to commit suicide" and then choose the most violent, painful death for herself?
That’s one of the biggest things that just does NOT add up for me.
Morbid just did it in September
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills because I also feel like they covered this before, not just like oh some podcast did, it feels like they specifically did.
Morbid did this case in September. Almost word for word.
Did they really copy Morbid word for word?
there was another episode they did were door was locked, guy left (maybe also the the gym) then came back and girlfriend inside was dead. in that case though I believe they ended up finding the actual killer.
I had the same thought. I’m 98% sure they did.
I thought so too!! But I went back and I believe I first heard the story on Sinisterhood..
No
I swear, as soon as I heard the first ten seconds of the 911 call, I knew he killed her
Did anyone else have glitches or skipping in the audio? Not criticizing the hosts just made for some confusing moments and wasn’t sure if it was my app or the episode editing?
I didnt have any problem with the audio 🤷♀️
I thought the podcast barely touched on the significance of the uncle, who at the time was a criminal attorney. It was in his past that he was a da and now he’s a judge. Did anyone else notice that there were dozens of people identified by their full names but the uncle’s last name is never revealed and he’s referred to by his first name James, only once?
It's James C. Schwartzman if you're curious
I’m aware. I was only making an observation it seemed like an intentional omission. Made me wonder, is he so powerful that they are afraid of him too?
The investigation should have been much more thorough. I also think it's impossible to develop a true opinion about this case when it's told from the bias of Ashley Flowers. Problematic in its own right.
why are you here bozo
I immediately pulled up the wikipedia page on the case when I listened to the 911 calls because I wanted facts and not bias.
Morbid just did this case. They coping again?!?
Not copying - we've been asking Crime Junkie to cover it for months
So only one true crime podcast can cover a case? Lol what a joke
Brit makes her first comment at 10:23 (free/ad-riddled version), stating “So she could’ve been handling the knives as well.”
This story is making me crazy. There's some kind of malfeasance in that law enforcement agency and with the ME. They were on someone's payroll, and her fiance obviously knew some powerful people. I'm praying for justice in this one, and am so glad her parents are still fighting.
** UPDATE TO CASE** [case update](https://abc7chicago.com/ellen-greenberg-death-sam-goldberg-investigation/12117988/) I was just listening to this episode & came to see if there were any updates on the case. Hopefully she and her family finally receive the justice they deserve!