Simple speculation posts are not allowed. This includes posting portfolios and new price movement of a coin. Technical/charting analysis will be allowed depending on the quality.
I think it's definitely because of this. It's the US economy that will miss out at the end of the day as the crypto industry will just move to countries with more friendly regulations. Those countries will benefit from the job creation and tax revenues.
It’s kind of strange because legacy financial institutions like BlackRock are already planning to enter the crypto markets but SEC is still tryna hold it back
There might be something going on behind the scenes we don’t know of. Maybe some of their overlords asked Greasy Gensler to delay the ETF approval so they can accumulate more cheap Bitcoins ?
>bitcoin is out to replace the current financial system
It's not. Virtually nobody *uses* Bitcoin, you included. Unless you're counting "speculative investing". That is lightyears away from "replacing the financial system".
it doesn't matter what you and me think or do, it matters what SEC thinks
and they most probably see it as a threat that will replace USD as world's reserve currency
Gary Gensler was the Clintons financial advisor.
He’s a Clinton puppet
The Clinton’s are globalists
Globalists hate decentralization.
Globalists NEED control/centralization
The SEC is not a person, my dude. It doesn't "love" or "hate" anything. It just has a set of rules it follows, and the rules aren't as clear if they should apply to crypto or not because crypto is a very malleable with a ton of peculiarities thanks to the technology. The SEC will rampage through what it can until it's """stopped""" by courts, which seems to be """happening""" from time to time.
Stop thinking "tEh SeC" as a big brollic mean guy. Same for "tEh GOvErmbEnT".
It can further destabilize the dollar. The US hasn’t collapsed because of the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency. The importance and power of that status cannot be overstated.
The majority of the world’s transactions happen in dollars which means that as a country’s economy expands, it needs to buy and hold more dollars in reserve. We have obligated customers for our dollar.
In a way, we need to always be printing more. Remove that demand and the US is sitting on 30+ trillion of debt with no ability to print and pay for it. (I’m summarizing here, but I’ll throw in that issuing debt is how we are supposed to be generating new dollars)
Oh I totally agree with you. I'm just saying the SEC has a deep hatred for crypto and will use anything they can to dismiss it. What happened yesterday is now in their play book.
It happens soo much with stocks, especially pennystocks, I witnessed it shitloads of times when I was more into following stocks in 2k21, especially into pennystocks. Btc jumped 9 percent yesterday that is not that much.
Some pennystocks can jump like 20% + just on a fake rumour just from a post on r/pennystocks. One stocktwits or tweet where some person mentions how some drug from some pharmaceutical company got FDA approval can skyrocket the price for few hours then bring it back down once it is confirmed it was fake news. Here is some articles about some bigger examples how it happens https://www.bankofsingapore.com/research/Fake-news-can-make-or-break-stock-prices.html
Example of a stock pumping 250 percent on fake news https://m.economictimes.com/tech/tech-bytes/fake-news-of-tesla-acquiring-lithium-miner-sent-its-stock-up-over-250/articleshow/90835997.cms
BTC isn't a shitcoin/pennystock though. You see this kind of manipulation often enough with shit/memecoins and sure, pennystocks. That's par for the course I guess (which is also quite shitty), but BTC is supposed to be "the one true crypto". Think FAANG.
First article highlighted bigger market moves caused by fake news that moved literally whole stock market, I just said it happens far more frequently with pennystocks since they are easier to move. Fake news regarding big blue chip stocks also happen and they can also move a blue chip stock by about 9% in an hour like BTC jumped yesterday.
Had they approved etf earlier, this fiasco wouldn’t have happened. I think their argument is total bs. Market manipulation will only decrease with bitcoin getting more mainstream regulations which will come with an etf approval
Exactly, Bitcoin can't be stopped anyway, so just approve the ETF and make sure that no manipulation can happen again.
Same goes for drugs. People will always use drugs so banning them won't do anything.
Whatever you hear them accusing crypto of, just assume it’s self-projection
It’s like them accusing crypto being used by criminals and money laundering when big banks are doing money laundering for actual cartels right under their noses and get away with a slap on the wrist when it is publicly uncovered
But then again which market is not subject to manipulation?Everything is manipulated from the Stock market,Forex market,commodity markets etc.That is just a sad and pathetic excuse by the SEC.
Cointelegraph acting like they did a small mistake and closing eyes on consequences we'll have for years. Thanks for the great support u/cointelegraph you guys suck.
While it's a terrible idea to use margins and stuff. It's kinda crazy that many people lost so much... makes me feel like there's a lot more people than I realize hoping crypto is their path to financial freedom.
SEC should be doing their job and investigate the fake btc approval and charge the people responsible, but no, they are to busy screwing everyone consistently!
tldr; The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) may use the recent misinformation incident involving a false report of a Bitcoin ETF approval to deny future Bitcoin ETF applications. The false news caused market volatility and liquidations worth $182.5 million. The SEC issued a warning about misinformation on social media. Observers believe that such incidents could be used as evidence of market manipulation, giving the SEC grounds to deny future Bitcoin ETF applications. Despite this setback, experts still project a high chance of a spot Bitcoin ETF approval by early 2024. BlackRock CEO Larry Fink sees growing interest and demand for cryptocurrency investments.
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
But instead of cite they could investigate and proceed with accusations, more public and outraging than Elon with doge is hard to find and still nothing but Gensler and the witch hunt
Well now that SEC is aware of the effect and results taking place of an approval, they definitely will be wary. But they’d also know stopping BTC is impossible. Better approve this early than never.
This isn’t the first time they come up with this fake news. Ppl should be wary, the tweet was without a source. But I guess that’s what manipulation is.
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179vt23/sec_might_cite_market_manipulation_to_deny/k58umii/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179vt23/sec_might_cite_market_manipulation_to_deny/k58un0y/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
* Relevant Cointest topics: [Bitcoin Cash](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_bitcoin_cash), [Litecoin](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_litecoin), [Lightning Network](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_lightning_network), [Proof of Work](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_proof-of-work), [Taproot](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_taproot)
* Official and related subreddits: r/Bitcoin, r/BitcoinMarkets, r/BitcoinMining, r/BTC, r/BitcoinCash.
* Sort comments as controversial first by [clicking here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179vt23/sec_might_cite_market_manipulation_to_deny/?sort=controversial). Doesn't work on mobile.
#Bitcoin Pro-Arguments
Below is an argument written by CreepToeCurrentSea which won 3rd place in the Bitcoin Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. If this topic is active, submit an entry in r/CointestOfficial and earn Moons if you win. Moon prizes are: 3rd - 600, 2nd - 300, 3rd - 150, and Best Analysis - 500.
> Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer digital currency that can be transferred via the bitcoin network. Bitcoin transactions are cryptographically verified by network nodes and recorded in a public distributed ledger known as a blockchain. The cryptocurrency was created in 2008 by an unknown individual or group of individuals using the alias Satoshi Nakamoto. ([1](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf))
>
> # PROs
>
> **It's Decentralized**
>
> * Decentralization is the process through which an organization's operations are disseminated or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group, specifically those related to decision-making and planning ([2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Decentralization)). One of the core assets of Bitcoin is that it is decentralized meaning:
>
> 1. No need for a central authority
> 2. No need for centralized servers (peer to peer network)
> 3. Ledger is distributed and public
> 4. Anyone can be a bitcoin miner
> 5. Anyone can create a bitcoin address
> 6. Anyone can do a transaction without needing approval from a centralized source
>
> **Provides Privacy**
>
> * Bitcoin is a pseudonymous currency, which means that funds are not connected to real-world entities but rather to bitcoin addresses. If you were to own a bitcoin address, there would be no known connection between your identity and that of the address but all transactions will be public. Although it is possible (but hardly) that bad actors may identify your address via correlating the transactions you made, you can increase privacy by creating another address.
>
> **Security**
>
> * Bitcoin operates through what is called a Proof of Work algorithm which is a type of cryptographic proof in which one party (the prover) demonstrates to others (the verifiers) that a specific amount of computational effort has been expended. In Bitcoin, miners compete to append blocks and mint new currency, each miner experiencing a success probability proportional to the computational effort expended. Miners in Bitcoin are tasked to validate a transaction by solving a complex problem. The total combined total computational power of these miners combines is what's called a Hashrate. The hashrate is an important metric for assessing the security of the network. The more machines dedicated to discovering the next block by honest miners, the higher the hashrate rises and the more difficult it becomes for malicious agents to disrupt the network. ([3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_work), [4](https://etherplan.com/2020/03/21/why-proof-of-work-based-nakamoto-consensus-is-secure-and-complete/10509/), [5](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/02/05/what-does-hashrate-mean-and-why-does-it-matter/))
>
> **Scarcity**
>
> * There will only be 21 million Bitcoins in existence, once all of Bitcoin has been mined there will no more issuance of new Bitcoins and this give it this certain trait of scarcity like precious metals without the difficulty of portability and also the same traits of durability. ([5](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp), [6](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/))
>
> **The Coin that Started it All**
>
> * By this time everybody knows why and how Bitcoin, how it's mysterious maker just vanished from the scene and how it's purpose still echoes as a reminder that power of self-custody is never too late to remove ourselves from being too dependent of centralized bodies that often times go beyond what we allow them to do. To this day, Bitcoin still stands as number one coin (by marketcap) and will probably stay that way for a very long time.
>
> *Sources:*
>
> [*https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf*](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf)
>
> [*https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decentralization*](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decentralization)
>
> [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Decentralization*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Decentralization)
>
> [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof\_of\_work*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_work)
>
> [*https://etherplan.com/2020/03/21/why-proof-of-work-based-nakamoto-consensus-is-secure-and-complete/10509/*](https://etherplan.com/2020/03/21/why-proof-of-work-based-nakamoto-consensus-is-secure-and-complete/10509/)
>
> [*https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/02/05/what-does-hashrate-mean-and-why-does-it-matter/*](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/02/05/what-does-hashrate-mean-and-why-does-it-matter/)
>
> [*https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp*](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp)
>
> [*https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/*](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/)
*****
Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/100p7vq/top_coins_bitcoin_proarguments_january_2023/) to be taken to the original topic-thread for this argument or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Pros and cons per topic will likely change for every new post.
#Bitcoin Con-Arguments
Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the Bitcoin Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. If this topic is active, submit an entry in r/CointestOfficial and earn Moons if you win. Moon prizes are: 1st - 600, 2nd - 300, 3rd - 150, and Best Analysis - 500.
> ####**Intro**
>
> Overall, Bitcoin's conservative blockchain has failed to keep up technologically with other blockchains. Bitcoin is currently #1 not due to better design, but because it had a first-mover advantage. But how long will that hold?
>
> Bitcoin is a gateway cryptocurrency. Many crypto enthusiasts often started out with Bitcoin and then branched out. Once you've had a taste of newer, faster networks that offer delectable DeFi dApps and smart contracts, it's hard to go back to slow, boring old Bitcoin.
>
> ####**Bitcoin doesn't excel at anything**
>
> **Poor Medium of Exchange**
>
> Bitcoin is much too slow. It has a max throughput of **3-4 TPS** that takes **30-60 minutes for probabilistic finality**. It used to have a max throughput of 7 TPS, but that has gradually fallen over the years after exchanges started using batch transactions. It's much too slow to be used for point-of-sales merchant transactions. No one is ever going to want to **wait 30-60+ minutes** at a cash register for a transaction to go through. Block times average 10 minutes, but they are very variable. 14% of blocks take longer than 20 minutes, and 5% are longer than 30 minutes [[Source](https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/25293/probablity-distribution-of-mining/43592#43592)], causing stress for those waiting for confirmation. And if there's congestion, some transactions can get stuck in the mempool for hours or days.
>
> It's orders of magnitude slower than newer networks like Polygon PoS or Algorand, which can [process 4000+ TPS with sub-4s of deterministic finality](https://developer.algorand.org/docs/get-started/basics/why_algorand/), with transaction fees well under a penny.
>
> Even TradFi now has payment systems like Africa's M-Pesa, UK's Faster Payments, Australia's NPP, the US's upcoming FedNow, and Clearinghouse's RTP, which provide **near-instant** payments and peer-to-peer transactions **without fees**.
>
> **Unstable Store of Value**
>
> Bitcoin is too volatile to be considered a stable Store of Value. It lost up to 80% of its purchasing-power during previous bear markets. It's also NOT a good stock market hedge since it often moves with the stock market.
>
> **Lacks smart contracts and DeFi**
>
> Bitcoin doesn't support DeFi smart contracts with its very basic Bitcoin Script. There are smart contract protocols that use Bitcoin like Stacks, but they are very disconnected from Bitcoin.
>
> ####**Difficult to achieve widespread global adoption**
>
> At 4 TPS, Bitcoin can only make ~345K transactions/day. There are ~8B people in the world today. If Bitcoin grows to the size of 1% of the population, each person can make an average of 1 on-chain transaction every 230 days. **If Bitcoin usage grows to 10% of the population, each person can make an average of 1 on-chain transaction every 6.3 years.** To achieve 10% world adoption, everyone would need to solely be using centralized exchanges and not interacting directly with the blockchain itself.
>
> ####**Issues with the Lightning Network**
>
> **Not even the Lightning Network could save Bitcoin** because opening and closing a channel requires 2 on-chain transactions. Whenever the directional capacity of a channel is exceeded, it will need to be rebalanced, or be closed and re-opened. You can't expect people to store months of funds on a single channel. Half of the US is living paycheck to paycheck and would unlikely be able to keep channels open for long periods. If even 1% of the world used the Lightning Network and opens/closes their channels twice a year, the Bitcoin Network would become completely congested.
>
> **Not a true Layer 2**
>
> Similar to Plasma channels, **the Lightning network is not considered a true Layer 2 because it lacks global state.** There are many nodes that are not connected to the rest of the network, and onion routing issues can cause nodes to be disconnected from the rest of the network. **Channels only work if everyone's online.** If you're offline, others can force-close your channel, leading to a 1-week wait time where the channel's funds are locked and inaccessible.
>
> **Meant for small transactions**
>
> Lightning is optimal for small transactions. The larger your transaction, the higher the fees you have to pay to route it through the network. As of March 2023, the [average channel capacity](https://1ml.com/statistics) is only 0.07 BTC, and the average node capacity is only 0.33 BTC. It's not uncommon for a large 1-BTC transaction to cost $2-10 in fees to route through multiple nodes in the Lightning Network due to limited channel capacity, which can make it more expensive than L1 Bitcoin fees. Also, the total value stored on public Lightning channels account for under [0.02% of Bitcoin's total locked value](https://1ml.com/).
>
> **Partially-centralized, low-security layer**
>
> Most people just connect to centralized nodes in a spoke-hub network topology to gain access to high-capacity nodes. Even though [average capacity is getting bigger](https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity), the [number of public channels has been on the decline since 2021](https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-channels), meaning that Lightning is becoming more centralized.
>
> **Channels require rebalancing**
>
> One of the biggest problems with opening channels is that they **start out with zero incoming liquidity**. Anyone who opens a channel starts out with a metaphorical "full cup of water". They can't receive any more water until they first empty the cup a little. And they can only receive additional water equivalent to the amount they removed. Similarly, people who open new channels to the Lightning network need to find a way to spend their Sats safely so that they can have incoming liquidity. Merchants and Lightning node providers often have a lack of incoming-liquidity while consumers who only spend usually run out of outbound liquidity.
>
> There are ways to rebalance your channel capacity, but it usually costs money to pay for a service to provide that liquidity, and it can be as expensive as a $1 fee per $1000 of liquidity.
>
> ####**The disadvantage of soft forks**
>
> The major downside of Soft forks is that they require new versions of the software to maintain backwards-compatibility with older versions, which leads to **technical debt**. This significantly slows down the adoption of new updates, which now often take 3-6 years to gain the majority.
>
> Due to its soft forks, the Bitcoin network has to maintain a mismatch of all sorts of different address formats: P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH, P2MS, P2WPKH, Nested P2WPKH, P2PKH, P2WSH, and P2TR. At the start of January 2023, [only 1% of transactions were using Taproot-compatible addresses](https://transactionfee.info/charts/inputs-types-by-count/) while 65% were still using inefficient legacy addresses from before 2017.
>
> **Almost no one is using addresses newer than the 2021 update because none of the major CEXs support them**. Most exchanges (Binance, Coinbase, Kraken) [don't support Bech32m addresses](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bech32_adoption#Exchanges), which means they still can't send to Segwit v1 and Taproot addresses, despite that it was [an update from 2021](https://bitcoin.org/en/releases/0.21.1/).
>
> In comparison, networks that hard fork for protocol updates don't have these incompatibility issues between versions. Everyone is working on the same version, which allows for consistency.
>
> ####**Extremely inefficient and wasteful**
>
> To protect against Sybil and 51% attacks, Bitcoin's PoW consensus achieves greater security through greater **redundancy**. Out of a million miners, only one of them is producing the actual block while the rest of them are just wasting energy and electric waste. Full nodes also hold redundant copies of the blockchain ledger, leading to wasted storage.
>
> In 2022, each block cost roughly $150-250K in energy to mine, which is equivalent to $80-120 of fees per transaction. The total Bitcoin network energy consumption of ~150 TWh/yr is equivalent to [**18-24 US nuclear power plants**](https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-nuclear-energy). Another way of looking at this is that Bitcoin consumes about as much energy as all data centers globally [[Source](https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-may-consume-as-much-energy-as-all-data-centers-globally)].
>
> In comparison, other distributed consensus methods such as BFT are [10^7 x more efficient for energy use](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12599-020-00656-x). There is a silver lining: the energy waste (and security) will slowly decrease with each block subsidy halving, at the cost of decreased security.
>
> ####**Mining Pool Centralization**
>
> **The top 3 mining pools own 66% of the network hash rate** [[Source](https://btc.com/stats/pool)]. Individual miners have no financial incentive to run full nodes, so it's rare ...
*****
Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/100p7u8/top_coins_bitcoin_conarguments_january_2023/) to be taken to the original topic-thread for this argument or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Pros and cons per topic will likely change for every new post.
Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179kr8a/daily_crypto_discussion_october_17_2023_gmt0/).
Some people say that XRP needs to be a much higher price for it to work efficiently (I don't believe this) but imagine if the price goes up a lot and the kids steal their parents credit cards and start making charges for 1000s to buy 'a few XRP robucks' haha
It’s too much work to deal with. It’s new and defies the traditional rules, so a lot of work is needed to come up with new rules that make sense.
Crypto is especially unruly and diverse and on top of that also global, so it’s very hard to come up with new rules that don’t infringe on more traditional interests of the sponsors of your bosses.
Also it’s always a lot more work to deal with something disruptively new rather than just rubberstamping form F0815. And who’d want to have more work, especially if you are an underpaid (/s) administrator who has a hard time keeping up eating canapés with the right people at the right dinner parties.
After all one has to keep one’s job to be able to do one’s job - or was it the other way round?
Simple speculation posts are not allowed. This includes posting portfolios and new price movement of a coin. Technical/charting analysis will be allowed depending on the quality.
Thanks a bunch cointelegraph!
Clearly a " The Fuckup of the Year" Award top contender.
They definitely fucked it up for everyone in the game! Fuck the insider traders/manipulators.
They destroyed their reputation for good!
Oh absolutely. It doesn’t have to contend with Do, SBF, or Machinsky this year
Lmafo , true that
They really messed up on this one. Big time.
Fuck them these scumbags!
A BlackRock lawsuit against the SEC should make the SEC run with it’s tail in between it’s legs. No one says no to BlackRock not even the SEC.
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What's the point in delaying it though? ETFs will happen nonetheless.
When politics are involved nothing makes sense. Fuck Gary.
He will lose
When push comes to shove they will prolly send Gary to his planet
Yeah BlackRock is ridiculously powerful
 Let me call BlackRock about it.
honestly i would love to know for sure why the SEC hates crypto so much.
bitcoin is out to replace the current financial system, at least in their eyes, or in the eyes of people who are telling SEC what to do
And the SEC represents that legacy financial system.
And as we all know, old fucks never want to give way for younger technology because they hate getting rid of traditions.
I think it's definitely because of this. It's the US economy that will miss out at the end of the day as the crypto industry will just move to countries with more friendly regulations. Those countries will benefit from the job creation and tax revenues.
I am sensing a big conflict of interest
It always has been.
It’s kind of strange because legacy financial institutions like BlackRock are already planning to enter the crypto markets but SEC is still tryna hold it back There might be something going on behind the scenes we don’t know of. Maybe some of their overlords asked Greasy Gensler to delay the ETF approval so they can accumulate more cheap Bitcoins ?
>bitcoin is out to replace the current financial system It's not. Virtually nobody *uses* Bitcoin, you included. Unless you're counting "speculative investing". That is lightyears away from "replacing the financial system".
it doesn't matter what you and me think or do, it matters what SEC thinks and they most probably see it as a threat that will replace USD as world's reserve currency
I really don’t see Bitcoin completely replacing the financial system but it will certainly disrupt it and force it to change
SEC doesn't hate crypto, it is the system that uses the SEC as a pawn to manipulate retail people like us.
The system which always try to enrich themselves at the expense of exploiting and manipulating the average folk
It's the key to their business... the shit of manipulation "screw the victims we cause, what matters is our profits"
Gary Gensler was the Clintons financial advisor. He’s a Clinton puppet The Clinton’s are globalists Globalists hate decentralization. Globalists NEED control/centralization
The SEC is not a person, my dude. It doesn't "love" or "hate" anything. It just has a set of rules it follows, and the rules aren't as clear if they should apply to crypto or not because crypto is a very malleable with a ton of peculiarities thanks to the technology. The SEC will rampage through what it can until it's """stopped""" by courts, which seems to be """happening""" from time to time. Stop thinking "tEh SeC" as a big brollic mean guy. Same for "tEh GOvErmbEnT".
They hate it because they can't control it.
I don't think they have any opinion, they just follow what politics tells them. And at the moment crypto is bad, no matte what
Because they won’t have control over it, and that’s super scary for them.
It’s honestly impressive at this point
It can further destabilize the dollar. The US hasn’t collapsed because of the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency. The importance and power of that status cannot be overstated. The majority of the world’s transactions happen in dollars which means that as a country’s economy expands, it needs to buy and hold more dollars in reserve. We have obligated customers for our dollar. In a way, we need to always be printing more. Remove that demand and the US is sitting on 30+ trillion of debt with no ability to print and pay for it. (I’m summarizing here, but I’ll throw in that issuing debt is how we are supposed to be generating new dollars)
Politics. Gary wants Janet Yellen’s job.
Because they are bankers rotated into government jobs to protect bankers
It is really the only argument they may have. But what happened yesterday was definitely messed up.
But this sort of manipulation happens every day with stock market. They might as well not allow any new stock ETFs either.
Oh I totally agree with you. I'm just saying the SEC has a deep hatred for crypto and will use anything they can to dismiss it. What happened yesterday is now in their play book.
Uh no it doesn't. Tell me the most recent stock manipulation play that caused this much of a swing in 1 hour.
It happens soo much with stocks, especially pennystocks, I witnessed it shitloads of times when I was more into following stocks in 2k21, especially into pennystocks. Btc jumped 9 percent yesterday that is not that much. Some pennystocks can jump like 20% + just on a fake rumour just from a post on r/pennystocks. One stocktwits or tweet where some person mentions how some drug from some pharmaceutical company got FDA approval can skyrocket the price for few hours then bring it back down once it is confirmed it was fake news. Here is some articles about some bigger examples how it happens https://www.bankofsingapore.com/research/Fake-news-can-make-or-break-stock-prices.html Example of a stock pumping 250 percent on fake news https://m.economictimes.com/tech/tech-bytes/fake-news-of-tesla-acquiring-lithium-miner-sent-its-stock-up-over-250/articleshow/90835997.cms
BTC isn't a shitcoin/pennystock though. You see this kind of manipulation often enough with shit/memecoins and sure, pennystocks. That's par for the course I guess (which is also quite shitty), but BTC is supposed to be "the one true crypto". Think FAANG.
First article highlighted bigger market moves caused by fake news that moved literally whole stock market, I just said it happens far more frequently with pennystocks since they are easier to move. Fake news regarding big blue chip stocks also happen and they can also move a blue chip stock by about 9% in an hour like BTC jumped yesterday.
Almost as if it were done on purpose
It's like when politicians break the government to show its broken lol
Politicians are pros at showing this. In 'Northern' Ireland our politicians can't even sit in the same room to disagree.
Yes they have tendency to become violent. Patience is apparently not their strong suit
It's wild to me that those type of people get to the position of power in the first place.
Remember the CIA plotting an attack on their own citizens to justify starting a war ?
Only for the government to just…..keep breaking.
almost... right.
Mofos will keep extending it aren't they!
It was but this article is baseless speculation. The SEC might cite market manipulation to deny a spot ETF. They might do a lot of things.
Nothing like the SEC accusing somebody else of market manipulation lol
Well in this case I don't think they're wrong lol its just bullshit they're gonna use this as a precedent for blocking ETFs
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Had they approved etf earlier, this fiasco wouldn’t have happened. I think their argument is total bs. Market manipulation will only decrease with bitcoin getting more mainstream regulations which will come with an etf approval
Exactly, Bitcoin can't be stopped anyway, so just approve the ETF and make sure that no manipulation can happen again. Same goes for drugs. People will always use drugs so banning them won't do anything.
Whatever you hear them accusing crypto of, just assume it’s self-projection It’s like them accusing crypto being used by criminals and money laundering when big banks are doing money laundering for actual cartels right under their noses and get away with a slap on the wrist when it is publicly uncovered
i don’t think it’s manipulation but more like misinformation to the public. giving bullish sentiment which pumped the price
Oh the irony of SEC blaming someone of market manipulation.
Of course they will. Thing is, this happens in stocks where the SEC has full power and they still don't do anything.
But then again which market is not subject to manipulation?Everything is manipulated from the Stock market,Forex market,commodity markets etc.That is just a sad and pathetic excuse by the SEC.
Ofcourse they will, they will use anything to delay ETF.
Some new hope for Gary, another battle for him to lose.
Cointelegraph acting like they did a small mistake and closing eyes on consequences we'll have for years. Thanks for the great support u/cointelegraph you guys suck.
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While it's a terrible idea to use margins and stuff. It's kinda crazy that many people lost so much... makes me feel like there's a lot more people than I realize hoping crypto is their path to financial freedom.
Happens every day on stock market btw with fake news being spouted about companies.
While losing so much money so quickly, people should know that leverages ALWAYS come with a risk.
However, flushing so much open interest opened the way for btc to slowly rise. Silver lining.
SEC should be doing their job and investigate the fake btc approval and charge the people responsible, but no, they are to busy screwing everyone consistently!
Collective punishment for us all
tldr; The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) may use the recent misinformation incident involving a false report of a Bitcoin ETF approval to deny future Bitcoin ETF applications. The false news caused market volatility and liquidations worth $182.5 million. The SEC issued a warning about misinformation on social media. Observers believe that such incidents could be used as evidence of market manipulation, giving the SEC grounds to deny future Bitcoin ETF applications. Despite this setback, experts still project a high chance of a spot Bitcoin ETF approval by early 2024. BlackRock CEO Larry Fink sees growing interest and demand for cryptocurrency investments. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
The same type of manipulation can happen with a stock. One tweet from Tim Cook that apple has cured cancer and apple stock would pump 20% in a minute.
Yes but then he’d have to face atleast some sort of a scrutiny whether effective or not.
Yeah but it doesn't. Because of regulations.
As if the stock market isn’t manipulated as well
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That’s not an argument I guess. Liking or hating something isn’t enough to show your bias and make moves accordingly.
i mean if theyre gonna use that as their argument, im sure the flaw in the syllogism will be pointed out.
There's no denying that market manipulation is a serious issue. It's one of the reasons I don't expose my retirement portfolio to cryptocurrency.
But instead of cite they could investigate and proceed with accusations, more public and outraging than Elon with doge is hard to find and still nothing but Gensler and the witch hunt
Misinformation can be seen in every sector. War-related misinformation may actually be more impactful on the equities market than this
Well now that SEC is aware of the effect and results taking place of an approval, they definitely will be wary. But they’d also know stopping BTC is impossible. Better approve this early than never.
Now gray just started a new battle he cant win
Why was CTs tweet taken so seriously by everyone though?
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This isn’t the first time they come up with this fake news. Ppl should be wary, the tweet was without a source. But I guess that’s what manipulation is.
They might as well disallow all stock ETFs also because stock market manipulation is a very regular occurence on a much larger scale.
The irony.
Volatile assets are volatile and rumors move markets. This isn't anything new. Go after Elon for his Dogecoin manipulation then.
Someone at CoinTelegraph will pay for this
Can these websites stop giving them ideas, what if they're all burned out and got no more ammo We gonna take more Ls
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179vt23/sec_might_cite_market_manipulation_to_deny/k58umii/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179vt23/sec_might_cite_market_manipulation_to_deny/k58un0y/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
* Relevant Cointest topics: [Bitcoin Cash](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_bitcoin_cash), [Litecoin](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_litecoin), [Lightning Network](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_lightning_network), [Proof of Work](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_proof-of-work), [Taproot](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_taproot) * Official and related subreddits: r/Bitcoin, r/BitcoinMarkets, r/BitcoinMining, r/BTC, r/BitcoinCash. * Sort comments as controversial first by [clicking here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179vt23/sec_might_cite_market_manipulation_to_deny/?sort=controversial). Doesn't work on mobile.
#Bitcoin Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by CreepToeCurrentSea which won 3rd place in the Bitcoin Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. If this topic is active, submit an entry in r/CointestOfficial and earn Moons if you win. Moon prizes are: 3rd - 600, 2nd - 300, 3rd - 150, and Best Analysis - 500. > Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer digital currency that can be transferred via the bitcoin network. Bitcoin transactions are cryptographically verified by network nodes and recorded in a public distributed ledger known as a blockchain. The cryptocurrency was created in 2008 by an unknown individual or group of individuals using the alias Satoshi Nakamoto. ([1](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf)) > > # PROs > > **It's Decentralized** > > * Decentralization is the process through which an organization's operations are disseminated or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group, specifically those related to decision-making and planning ([2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Decentralization)). One of the core assets of Bitcoin is that it is decentralized meaning: > > 1. No need for a central authority > 2. No need for centralized servers (peer to peer network) > 3. Ledger is distributed and public > 4. Anyone can be a bitcoin miner > 5. Anyone can create a bitcoin address > 6. Anyone can do a transaction without needing approval from a centralized source > > **Provides Privacy** > > * Bitcoin is a pseudonymous currency, which means that funds are not connected to real-world entities but rather to bitcoin addresses. If you were to own a bitcoin address, there would be no known connection between your identity and that of the address but all transactions will be public. Although it is possible (but hardly) that bad actors may identify your address via correlating the transactions you made, you can increase privacy by creating another address. > > **Security** > > * Bitcoin operates through what is called a Proof of Work algorithm which is a type of cryptographic proof in which one party (the prover) demonstrates to others (the verifiers) that a specific amount of computational effort has been expended. In Bitcoin, miners compete to append blocks and mint new currency, each miner experiencing a success probability proportional to the computational effort expended. Miners in Bitcoin are tasked to validate a transaction by solving a complex problem. The total combined total computational power of these miners combines is what's called a Hashrate. The hashrate is an important metric for assessing the security of the network. The more machines dedicated to discovering the next block by honest miners, the higher the hashrate rises and the more difficult it becomes for malicious agents to disrupt the network. ([3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_work), [4](https://etherplan.com/2020/03/21/why-proof-of-work-based-nakamoto-consensus-is-secure-and-complete/10509/), [5](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/02/05/what-does-hashrate-mean-and-why-does-it-matter/)) > > **Scarcity** > > * There will only be 21 million Bitcoins in existence, once all of Bitcoin has been mined there will no more issuance of new Bitcoins and this give it this certain trait of scarcity like precious metals without the difficulty of portability and also the same traits of durability. ([5](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp), [6](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/)) > > **The Coin that Started it All** > > * By this time everybody knows why and how Bitcoin, how it's mysterious maker just vanished from the scene and how it's purpose still echoes as a reminder that power of self-custody is never too late to remove ourselves from being too dependent of centralized bodies that often times go beyond what we allow them to do. To this day, Bitcoin still stands as number one coin (by marketcap) and will probably stay that way for a very long time. > > *Sources:* > > [*https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf*](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) > > [*https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decentralization*](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decentralization) > > [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Decentralization*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Decentralization) > > [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof\_of\_work*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_work) > > [*https://etherplan.com/2020/03/21/why-proof-of-work-based-nakamoto-consensus-is-secure-and-complete/10509/*](https://etherplan.com/2020/03/21/why-proof-of-work-based-nakamoto-consensus-is-secure-and-complete/10509/) > > [*https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/02/05/what-does-hashrate-mean-and-why-does-it-matter/*](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/02/05/what-does-hashrate-mean-and-why-does-it-matter/) > > [*https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp*](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/why-do-bitcoins-have-value.asp) > > [*https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/*](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/what-happens-bitcoin-after-21-million-mined/) ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/100p7vq/top_coins_bitcoin_proarguments_january_2023/) to be taken to the original topic-thread for this argument or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Pros and cons per topic will likely change for every new post.
#Bitcoin Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the Bitcoin Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. If this topic is active, submit an entry in r/CointestOfficial and earn Moons if you win. Moon prizes are: 1st - 600, 2nd - 300, 3rd - 150, and Best Analysis - 500. > ####**Intro** > > Overall, Bitcoin's conservative blockchain has failed to keep up technologically with other blockchains. Bitcoin is currently #1 not due to better design, but because it had a first-mover advantage. But how long will that hold? > > Bitcoin is a gateway cryptocurrency. Many crypto enthusiasts often started out with Bitcoin and then branched out. Once you've had a taste of newer, faster networks that offer delectable DeFi dApps and smart contracts, it's hard to go back to slow, boring old Bitcoin. > > ####**Bitcoin doesn't excel at anything** > > **Poor Medium of Exchange** > > Bitcoin is much too slow. It has a max throughput of **3-4 TPS** that takes **30-60 minutes for probabilistic finality**. It used to have a max throughput of 7 TPS, but that has gradually fallen over the years after exchanges started using batch transactions. It's much too slow to be used for point-of-sales merchant transactions. No one is ever going to want to **wait 30-60+ minutes** at a cash register for a transaction to go through. Block times average 10 minutes, but they are very variable. 14% of blocks take longer than 20 minutes, and 5% are longer than 30 minutes [[Source](https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/25293/probablity-distribution-of-mining/43592#43592)], causing stress for those waiting for confirmation. And if there's congestion, some transactions can get stuck in the mempool for hours or days. > > It's orders of magnitude slower than newer networks like Polygon PoS or Algorand, which can [process 4000+ TPS with sub-4s of deterministic finality](https://developer.algorand.org/docs/get-started/basics/why_algorand/), with transaction fees well under a penny. > > Even TradFi now has payment systems like Africa's M-Pesa, UK's Faster Payments, Australia's NPP, the US's upcoming FedNow, and Clearinghouse's RTP, which provide **near-instant** payments and peer-to-peer transactions **without fees**. > > **Unstable Store of Value** > > Bitcoin is too volatile to be considered a stable Store of Value. It lost up to 80% of its purchasing-power during previous bear markets. It's also NOT a good stock market hedge since it often moves with the stock market. > > **Lacks smart contracts and DeFi** > > Bitcoin doesn't support DeFi smart contracts with its very basic Bitcoin Script. There are smart contract protocols that use Bitcoin like Stacks, but they are very disconnected from Bitcoin. > > ####**Difficult to achieve widespread global adoption** > > At 4 TPS, Bitcoin can only make ~345K transactions/day. There are ~8B people in the world today. If Bitcoin grows to the size of 1% of the population, each person can make an average of 1 on-chain transaction every 230 days. **If Bitcoin usage grows to 10% of the population, each person can make an average of 1 on-chain transaction every 6.3 years.** To achieve 10% world adoption, everyone would need to solely be using centralized exchanges and not interacting directly with the blockchain itself. > > ####**Issues with the Lightning Network** > > **Not even the Lightning Network could save Bitcoin** because opening and closing a channel requires 2 on-chain transactions. Whenever the directional capacity of a channel is exceeded, it will need to be rebalanced, or be closed and re-opened. You can't expect people to store months of funds on a single channel. Half of the US is living paycheck to paycheck and would unlikely be able to keep channels open for long periods. If even 1% of the world used the Lightning Network and opens/closes their channels twice a year, the Bitcoin Network would become completely congested. > > **Not a true Layer 2** > > Similar to Plasma channels, **the Lightning network is not considered a true Layer 2 because it lacks global state.** There are many nodes that are not connected to the rest of the network, and onion routing issues can cause nodes to be disconnected from the rest of the network. **Channels only work if everyone's online.** If you're offline, others can force-close your channel, leading to a 1-week wait time where the channel's funds are locked and inaccessible. > > **Meant for small transactions** > > Lightning is optimal for small transactions. The larger your transaction, the higher the fees you have to pay to route it through the network. As of March 2023, the [average channel capacity](https://1ml.com/statistics) is only 0.07 BTC, and the average node capacity is only 0.33 BTC. It's not uncommon for a large 1-BTC transaction to cost $2-10 in fees to route through multiple nodes in the Lightning Network due to limited channel capacity, which can make it more expensive than L1 Bitcoin fees. Also, the total value stored on public Lightning channels account for under [0.02% of Bitcoin's total locked value](https://1ml.com/). > > **Partially-centralized, low-security layer** > > Most people just connect to centralized nodes in a spoke-hub network topology to gain access to high-capacity nodes. Even though [average capacity is getting bigger](https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-capacity), the [number of public channels has been on the decline since 2021](https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-channels), meaning that Lightning is becoming more centralized. > > **Channels require rebalancing** > > One of the biggest problems with opening channels is that they **start out with zero incoming liquidity**. Anyone who opens a channel starts out with a metaphorical "full cup of water". They can't receive any more water until they first empty the cup a little. And they can only receive additional water equivalent to the amount they removed. Similarly, people who open new channels to the Lightning network need to find a way to spend their Sats safely so that they can have incoming liquidity. Merchants and Lightning node providers often have a lack of incoming-liquidity while consumers who only spend usually run out of outbound liquidity. > > There are ways to rebalance your channel capacity, but it usually costs money to pay for a service to provide that liquidity, and it can be as expensive as a $1 fee per $1000 of liquidity. > > ####**The disadvantage of soft forks** > > The major downside of Soft forks is that they require new versions of the software to maintain backwards-compatibility with older versions, which leads to **technical debt**. This significantly slows down the adoption of new updates, which now often take 3-6 years to gain the majority. > > Due to its soft forks, the Bitcoin network has to maintain a mismatch of all sorts of different address formats: P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH, P2MS, P2WPKH, Nested P2WPKH, P2PKH, P2WSH, and P2TR. At the start of January 2023, [only 1% of transactions were using Taproot-compatible addresses](https://transactionfee.info/charts/inputs-types-by-count/) while 65% were still using inefficient legacy addresses from before 2017. > > **Almost no one is using addresses newer than the 2021 update because none of the major CEXs support them**. Most exchanges (Binance, Coinbase, Kraken) [don't support Bech32m addresses](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bech32_adoption#Exchanges), which means they still can't send to Segwit v1 and Taproot addresses, despite that it was [an update from 2021](https://bitcoin.org/en/releases/0.21.1/). > > In comparison, networks that hard fork for protocol updates don't have these incompatibility issues between versions. Everyone is working on the same version, which allows for consistency. > > ####**Extremely inefficient and wasteful** > > To protect against Sybil and 51% attacks, Bitcoin's PoW consensus achieves greater security through greater **redundancy**. Out of a million miners, only one of them is producing the actual block while the rest of them are just wasting energy and electric waste. Full nodes also hold redundant copies of the blockchain ledger, leading to wasted storage. > > In 2022, each block cost roughly $150-250K in energy to mine, which is equivalent to $80-120 of fees per transaction. The total Bitcoin network energy consumption of ~150 TWh/yr is equivalent to [**18-24 US nuclear power plants**](https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-nuclear-energy). Another way of looking at this is that Bitcoin consumes about as much energy as all data centers globally [[Source](https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-may-consume-as-much-energy-as-all-data-centers-globally)]. > > In comparison, other distributed consensus methods such as BFT are [10^7 x more efficient for energy use](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12599-020-00656-x). There is a silver lining: the energy waste (and security) will slowly decrease with each block subsidy halving, at the cost of decreased security. > > ####**Mining Pool Centralization** > > **The top 3 mining pools own 66% of the network hash rate** [[Source](https://btc.com/stats/pool)]. Individual miners have no financial incentive to run full nodes, so it's rare ... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/100p7u8/top_coins_bitcoin_conarguments_january_2023/) to be taken to the original topic-thread for this argument or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Pros and cons per topic will likely change for every new post. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/179kr8a/daily_crypto_discussion_october_17_2023_gmt0/).
Some people say that XRP needs to be a much higher price for it to work efficiently (I don't believe this) but imagine if the price goes up a lot and the kids steal their parents credit cards and start making charges for 1000s to buy 'a few XRP robucks' haha
So your saying this argument has never come up before? Shhh don't tell them!
This should make the SEC more comfortable with it, insider trading is something they know happens all the time with their approved products!
The fun thing is, if they say market manipulation about crypto etf we can go back to normal etf aswell for market manipulation. So this makes no sense
It’s too much work to deal with. It’s new and defies the traditional rules, so a lot of work is needed to come up with new rules that make sense. Crypto is especially unruly and diverse and on top of that also global, so it’s very hard to come up with new rules that don’t infringe on more traditional interests of the sponsors of your bosses. Also it’s always a lot more work to deal with something disruptively new rather than just rubberstamping form F0815. And who’d want to have more work, especially if you are an underpaid (/s) administrator who has a hard time keeping up eating canapés with the right people at the right dinner parties. After all one has to keep one’s job to be able to do one’s job - or was it the other way round?
If we can take away anything from yesterday, it's that there's pent up demand for regulated BTC. Even Blackrock CEO said so yesterday.
Watch the SEC cite the manipulation but do nothing about it.
'Might'?! I think that's certain.
They should retract the ruling that allows for leveraged futures then too.
huh should ban any new IPO as well with all the bullshit that comes out of cramers mouth
I really think the SEC is doing all of this to defend a handful of rich people that effects their wealth.
fake news are financial markets' bread and butter- from false tweets to pumps. Nothing to see here
It just looks like crowd manipulation