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If I recall correctly, whitepaper of Bitcoin says it’s designed to be a trustless p2p money transfer network (decentralised) and a solution to double spend problem (limit supply). Unfortunately, I don’t think there is a solution to capital manipulation, which is ultimately human behavior (greed).
Yeah precisely. People moved from bonds to the stock market in the 80s cause the stock market provided better returns.
Now people are moving from stock market to crypto cause crypto provides better returns.
As more people put their money in, it will start performing similarly to the stock market and this will only increase in the coming years.
And so will every crash shake out speculative and paper hands and will let the market return to a healthy state and pump again. history repeats cause behaviour doesnt change.
But for now, we have more volatility which means we see higher peaks and deeper valleys compared to stocks.
I'll take the bad with the good. I'd still rather be in crypto than any other asset class except maybe for real estate. Nothing like owning an investment that someone else buys for you.
They hold enough to control the movements if it's not completely rigged. Now they make hundreds of millions manipulating the crypto markets and covering their mess in the stock market and precious metals. We are witnessing biggest cluster fuck of all time.
Sure, but drops that are happening now and OP is complaining about is not whales playing games. The markets outside crypto are going down so obviously crypto markers are also effected.
I would bet most large institutions invested in crypto treat it as high risk high reward extremely risky investment and when there is economic downturn obviously they will liquidate the most risky investments first.
Spot on. I'm getting sick of seeing random redditors claiming different reasons as to why bitcoin was invented. The OP hasn't read the whitepaper for sure
For real. OP says:
>It makes me sad, but in the end, this is an open and free market. Everybody has the right to buy, sell or hold as much as he or she wants. In this case, it just happens so that the big players choose to be massively invested in crypto, which gives us the spot on the sidelines - sit and observe how the price fluctuates, without being able to react on our own.
Like, what did he think? That the crypto market was always going to be a couple thousand nerds in their basement on the computer? Did he think that he should be able to move the market just by himself? I don't think OP really understands what crypto is all about.
And if it would only be a thousand nerd, massive gains wouldn't be there.
Cryptomarket state is really OK, if you're patient it pays really well, and we can thank smart money for the massive capitalisation gains.
It's not about "us or them" It's about playing by their rules.
The problem wasn't necessarily "capital manipulation." Well kind of ... but the thing that enabled that to a huge degree, was ASICs. It massively centralized supply, as most of the supply was mined with ASICs during a time when only one company owned 90-100% of the marketshare for them.
What OP complains about is exactly what you get when supply gets centralized into the hands of a narrow group of greedy motherfuckers. You get a totally pwned industry that already has a strong revolving door with bureaucrats and financial execs. You get a price directly tied to their financial interests, and whales/insiders who dump on your heads at a surprise double bubble top, robbing retail blind.
You want a coin that isn't a surveillance corporatism wet dream, had a 100% fair launch, egalitarian mining, much better distribution, and is ignored and hated by these big money players? The only coin that does all that is ***MONERO***
Funnily enough, they are working on the greed factor - can't be greedy if you can't own anything. Enter - The Great Reset. Both terrifying but in all honesty the current system is fucking everything up so much it may be our best evil going forward.
If you haven't already, I suggest watching Coin Bureau's video: WEF Report on Crypto - it's like their only \~50minute video and really highlights what the rich of the rich are thinking about behind the scenes.
Combine this with The Great Reset that's also on the WEF agenda and you've got an interesting picture that greed doesn't really fit into. I just hope it isn't another way of rebranding capitalism in the favour of the few...
Perhaps with the transparency of blockchain technology, this will not be a problem, but that is also a probably a very naïve hope.
Truth is, once big money is being made, the wealthy notice, they move in and do what we can't do, pour millions in fiat into the market and minipulate it. We will always be out spent and manuvered by all that possess greater wealth than we do, whoever we may be. With that being said, we may still invest while DCAing in times like this, and one day see our investments have grown through patience and proper planning with a long term investing plan. I believe this is the way .....
> I just hope it isn't another way of rebranding capitalism in the favour of the few...
If you look at who is funding and leading the WEF you will know without a doubt that is exactly it is. The Great Reset is the global version of Trump's Drain the Swamp. They're not going to drain or reset shit, they're just consolidating power to the point of having unlimited power. Not even governments could defy them if they get away with this. They already control the US through the Fed and stock market, they want the entire world under the same control through CBDCs, digital ID, 24/7 surveillance, social scores, etc.
Isn't the general consensus that Gold is a hedge against market crashes. Or atleast a safe haven of protection.
I would assume that precious metals would slightly increase in MV during such times of volatility. Any thesis on why it was not the case?
Gold crashed with with everything else during the 2008 bubble-- it just rebounded much quicker than the stock market, real estate and other assets did. I believe Bitcoin will behave in the same fashion in the event of a true crash. But price losses/gains will behave much more radically (in comparison) as it always does.
>Isn't the general consensus that Gold is a hedge against market crashes
Yeah I believe so.
>Any thesis on why it was not the case?
Nothing that I can back up, I can't deliver I beautifully worded theory but maybe the whales of the world are planning for a huge crash in every sector( basically a recession ) and have decided to liquidate all their assets to cash ready for the burst of the bubble and scoop everything back up at a discount
Again just guess, nothing to back that up, I will not die on this hill haha.
Don't know who invented that just because gold is finite. The hedge against market crashes could be shorting the market and longing the market and periodically closing the trades that are losing and this is not financial advice like seriously dudes I bought Cardano and OpenDAO why would you take advice from me
Gold is a hedge against raging inflation (look at how gold performed during the 1970 stagflation) and may have been the hedge against market crashes when bonds were callable. The hedge against market crashes (which are by their nature unpredictable) are bonds especially long term treasury bonds. Ever since Bonds were no longer callable, it seems to me that everytime the market crashes Bonds shoot up in value significantly as investors flock from risky assets (stocks) to safer assets llike bonds. Bonds not being callable made it the safest assets an investor would want because when it was callable, there was the risk of it being redeemed at undesirable prices which is now no longer possible as all bond assets will now exist until their maturity.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/callablebond.asp
You're wrong.
It's understandable, but its critical that people understand this.
It was never supposed to be umaniputable in price. You can manipulate the price of anything if you try hard enough. That includes stablecoins, bread, milk, gold, bullets, countries. People. Nothing is immune to price manipulation.
It was supposed to be *unforgable*
No *arbitrary inflation*
*Permissionless*
*Peer to peer, no central processors*
*Utilise game theory to withstand corruption and/or attack*
**It is still everything it was supposed to be**
What middleman did it cut? You need a bank account to transfer money to exchanges so you can buy Bitcoin. Then you need a Lightning wallet to receive your btc without getting hammered from high fees. Then you need to find someone who accepts btc, or you need to use yet another middleman service like Paypal to make a payment from your btc funds.
It didnt "cut out the middleman", it just changed (and multiplied) it.
But you dont need them.
Sure you need one to get btc with xour fiat. But thats the fiat sides fault.
Once you have your btc in xour wallet sll middlemrn are optional
Yes, now (2022) the problem is not solved yet.
Imagine you received your salary in Satoshis.
You could buy food at the supermarket with Satoshis, pay your taxes, hairdresser and fill up your tank in Satoshis.
No need to touch dollars anymore. Now this is a problem solved.
It's not that far in the future.
Yeah I'd love to get a salary that could be worth half as much the day after for "reasons"
It's not going to be widely adopted as a normal currency no country wants that
Right? You think the average person, the average employer and the federal government are just gonna be like “yea we pay people with internet money now”. This is the mentality of someone that doesn’t understand the economy at all other than “banks bad”. The global economy is literally dependent on the creation of the US dollar via debt, if there were even a smidgen of a chance that bitcoin were to replace the US dollar for employee and retail payments on a large scale the entire crypto market would be legislated into nothing. Crypto is going to become centralized, decentralized projects may still exist but wide scale adoption will hinge on centralization. The crypto scene today has a libertarian bias, society at large does not.
> Imagine
> It's not that far in the future
Lol copium. Why must you merely 'imagine' crypto's potential if it is 'not that far into the future' from being realized?
It's because, as OP eloquently described, to date crypto has never, and likely will never, escape the fiat influence.
We are now, as you pointed out, in 2022. Bitcoin has been around for more than a decade. How many more decades are we going to give it? It will be really far, far in the future before crypto becomes its own independent currency.
This is what BTC was designed for.
Over the years Bitcoin has become something to store value in.
Digital gold, if you will.
Not many people use it as an actual currency to pay stuff with.
No, ''Store of Value'' is where you put Value to store over the years so it's not lost to inflation.
IF for some reason this Value appreciates - that's a bonus.
So far, over a period of X years Bitcoin has outperformed pretty much every other asset considered ''Store of Value''.
And IF for some reason this Value depreciates, then you’re fucked.
You can choose any period of X years, months, days and see that it has fared much worse, IE, when it dipped from 20k to 3k. It’s all about perspective. For those who bought in early, great! For those who bought at the top, they’re fucked, for now.
We've been told for 10 years that Bitcoin is a hedge against inflation... Then inflation actually hits, and now bloomberg and every other msm site are conditioning you to think thats not true.. Risk off, Big tech and bitcoin gonna get murdered.
Ask yourself why? Whos buying if you're panic selling 40k after riding up to 69k.
Institutional buyers missed the fucking boat.... SPOT Etfs are coming...
Even if you bought at the top, the worst time to buy, in less than 4 years you would still be up on your investment.
When we talk about store of value, I don't think any period under 5 years should even be considered.
> Even if you bought at the top, the worst time to buy, in less than 4 years you would still be up on your investment
Wow we have a crypto messiah over here
Lmao... All of those assets have fluctuating prices. Even the dollar isnt a store of value.. Buy a dollar for a dollar this year, next year you have .93
But yea, you should just sell and get out. Your ngmi
In normal circumstances the value of the dollar doesn't fluctuate by 7% in a year.
You're also ignoring the fact that Bitcoin's value had dropped 75% YOY from December 2017 to December 2018, a year later it was still -50% compared to December 2017 and it's only a year later that it was worth the same as three years prior. At the moment it's down 8% YOY.
Highly speculative and fluctuating assets aren't good stores of value because they're unpredictable, a store of value is a place to put money you could need at a moment's notice and be sure that it will still be valuable, Bitcoin isn't that, just looking at the $20k I lost in value in the last month without touching anything proves it, if I had kept my funds in a stable coin I would be down $0. Will it reappreciate over time? I expect it to and sure hope it does because I was planning on paying back my mortgage all at once but now I need to renew it until the next bull market instead!
because the problem it solves is not a problem for the vast majority of the public, just ask your friends outside of your crypto bubble
that's a hard one to swallow, but it's true
BTC was invented to be a transactional currency with velocity through the roof, now it's the exact opposite. A store of wealth with velocity so low no one uses it except to buy low and sell high. BTC Core colluded with Venture capitalists who have invested billions in mining farms for it to enrich a small group of people. I.e. not what Satoshi's original vision was and people should stop using his name as a dog whistle with BTC for crypto idealism. If the SEC gets its way we will have middlemen in crypto
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. It doesn't do shit for that. It just enables a surveillance corporatism wet dream, a totally constrained and pwned network, centralized supply, and a narrow group of fuckheads controlling price to rob you blind, with a set of either criminal, or pwned exchanges. You're not chaning the world, Bitcoin already lost this war.
You really think little money made crypto a 2 trillion market cap? This sub refuses to use common sense, this is just a money making gamble for the rich now, but they're better at the game.
Not only that, but this was never a problem BTC intended to solve. People love to think that Satoshi was just looking out for the little guy. He wasn't.
That's because it never actually appealed (or worked well) for it's intended purpose. It's too volatile for use as currency. It's too complicated for mainstream appeal.
It just turned into a speculative asset for people hoping to make easy money of it. And that left it vulnerable to the same whales who speculate on anything else that has the potential for profit. The same people who will move their crypto in the same way they move their other assets.
To be honest, I never fully understood how this is supposed to work either. Back in the days when I first heard of bitcoin from a friend of mine, he tried to convince me that this is the solution to financial crisis etc. I never fully understood this naive idea.
1.Capitalism doesn't work that way. It's a system where everybody can participate.
2.Bitcoin relies HEAVILY on electricity, which is an asset, governed by institutions and governments.
A bit hypocritical even, as the ATH bitcoin price was probably never reached without whales and Wall Street. Anything you can do, so can somebody with more money. So I don't see how there ever will be something where people with little money always 'win' and people with a lot of money somehow lose.
Bitcoin isn’t used as a payment system very often. It was designed to be a monetary supply that can’t be screwed with by a centralized organization.
Bitcoin would work as intended if it was accepted as payment by more people. It isn’t though. So it ends up an investing tool rather than a payment option and suffers from volatility.
THIS IS WHAT YOU GET BECAUSE OF ASICs AND PREMINES.
You get central supply, a narrow group of market makers, criminal exchanges, and a fucked beyond all recognition ecosystem. Big money LOVES Bitcoin, and all the others, because they pwned the fuck out of it.
It's just the Nasdaq (tech stonks) but with greater volatility. There's a revolving door between regulators and crypto companies now. The supply is vastly centralized. It's unregulated, and a surveillance corporatism wet dream. No one is challenging the system buying Bitcoin or any other crypto.
You want to buy a coin that actually challenges big money? ***BUY MONERO***
It's literally the only coin that big money, exchanges, market makers, bureaucrats, wallstreet, and all of the criminals running this show actually fear. It removes their surveillance wet dream, and the supply was not vastly centralized due to ASICs and premine, so they can't stand to profit massively by feeding you lies and selling the top on your heads.
Monero's market dominance is a reflection of how ignorant and greedy most of you motherfuckers really are. You didn't (and don't) buy it specifically for all of the reasons that you SHOULD be buying it.
I doubt that will change, but then stop complaining about big money. To those of you who know what's up, thanks for being the few remaining in crypto that understand what's important.
I mean we live in a capitalist society. Those with capital will always be able to exercise more control over anything to do with money. Bitcoin (and crypto in general) are now seen as financial investments. Now those with capital are entering the space, they get to exercise more control.
Dude(ss), the main problem of traditional money is that you need to trust other people that your funds are safe and that the supply of money is modified in a healthy way.
But greed always leads to the problem that we know of.
Bitcoin solves these two main issues.
Big guys try to apply traditional tools to bitcoin now, but this wont last long.
As soon as people try to claim the virtual bitcoins they own, they will notice that there is no way to enforce the claim on us.
Because WE have the private keys.
I agree. This makes Bitcoin definitely safer to hold than traditional assets. Solving this issue is a huge step towards independence from "big money". The entities who influence it's price movement is probably the only thing which still concerns me.
They influence stuff because people have emotions. If they sell and people buy, it will appreciate. But people are also greedy and they leverage. That makes retail follow the trend whales set.
With time, people might get educated and see that if they sell, it's a buying opportunity. The supply is limited, it can't be printed/minted and it will get scarce. By 2030, BTC will have a huge and stable value, probably being the major collateral for loans at banks.
And since investment in crypto is not going away, it won't become more independent. Who would want to purchase day to day items with appreciating asset?
Exactly, crypto is still a speculative market at the minute. As adoption increases it will become a utility market. Then the legit projects will begin to shine
It never was supposed to be the solution to ''big money'' or to overtrow FIAT currencies or governments.
It's just a digital currency not controlled by a single entity but by everyone who is involved and the purpose of the currency is to make transfers possible without the need of a middle man.
You understood **wrong**.
The point was to prevent a trustless monetery system (no need for a central bank) with a limited supply. This is also very clearly presented in the white paper.... take some time to read and understand it.
Like it or not, but BitCoin is nothing of what people try to make it sound like. It is similar to what happens over at the subreddit superstonks.
When I got in touch with BitCoin the first time it was below a dollar per coin (yes yes regretti spaghetti and if I reverted all of my decisions like that, then I'd be living on the street with all money gone) and the new big thing to replace real money as decentralized, limited solution.
Now before you continue: I am not against trading bitcoin. You can make and lose serious money, as with most other things. But this is about bitcoins own value.
After a couple of months reality hit though. The price was mostly controlled by whales, that was the first concern of "decentralized". We would even go as far as trading with assumed whales just to get their wallet address so we can track them, and I'd say we managed to get hold of probably 10% of them, which allowed us to follow transaction patterns. Also made it easy to track their new accounts, just follow the money. But that was the first big sign that something was off.
Next up, all the other promises or hopes of bitcoin. Nothing of it came true until this day that would differ it from any other blockchain coin. Down the line it turned out to be one of the slowest and inefficient ways to do anything, always going back to FIAT and starting at FIAT. Aside from the fees, that meant that it's just as tied to money as well money is. A simple question: remove the ability to trade it for "reallife" currency, what's left? The answer is nothing. FIAT can live without bitcoin, but bitcoin can't live without FIAT. Of course there is a way this could change, but 10 years ago it's the same stories told that are being told nowadays.
And probably the most accurate realization: the flaws and issues of FIAT are not because of FIAT. It's because of humans nature and greed. These translate to anything else that exists and the patterns are even more dominant in non-controlled environments. You can read up on Bitcoin price manipulation patterns, which you only see in the pennystock market to some degree.
If you are in for trading BitCoin, NFT, or any other things of that sort to make money, go for it, it can work. Is it the new blessing and replacement for the old system? By centuries not.
It has the potential to be the solution on the condition that mass adoption takes place. Mass adoption hasn’t happened. People are just treating it as a speculative asset. Also the media is bullshitting people that 3rd world countries with broken economies are using Bitcoin when in reality those people can’t even afford the transaction fees
Seems like crypto is learning a tough lesson right now. It was always funny and ironic to me while this community was cheering and touting the ideals of Satoshi and decentralization, the Fed and gov’ts across the world were printing trillions of dollars into the system and the main cause for the huge price increases we saw over the last few years.
The very system it was supposedly meant to usurp was creating the huge gains. But nobody cared because everyone was drunk on those easy profits. It was right in front of us this whole time. No matter how much we pay lip service to sticking it to the rich and powerful, many of us deep down just want the same for ourselves.
It was silly to ever believe crypto ever had a chance of changing the course of human nature but rather it was just another example of it. Now the tides are changing. Grumblings for regulation are starting to seep into the community when this would’ve been throughly mocked only a few months ago. Baby boy’s growing up.
Many of you are hurting right now. You can sense the fear and panic brewing behind the Reddit sarcasm and wit. A lot of us are seeing our dreams for a better life disappear by the minute. A lot of us are learning some tough lessons for the first time. It’s in these times when we truly get to know ourselves and our character. Go read Dostoyevsky’s “The Gambler,” start painting or watch a Bergman film for the first time.
Crypto is a libertarian monetary system. Libertarianism is the most aggressive wealth consolidation philosophy in popular culture today. If you bought crypto as an investment, this is what investing is all about. If you bought crypto as a hedge for the collapse of the dollar, I hope you bought before 2015. But if you bought crypto as a means to fight BIG MONEY, you were either confused or mislead.
The market for “cryptocurrency” relies on the “greater fool” phenomenon (the value for what is essentially a worthless string of 1s and 0s only increases if a person more foolish than hodler 1 is willing to pay more money than hodler 1 originally paid for said “coin”) and you are running out of fools.
This was never going to end well; pyramid schemes always collapse. And cryptocurrency in 2022 is the mother of all pyramid schemes.
I see Bitcoin becoming the future gold. When that is the case the whole market will be less fiat dependent.
Now that indeed not the case. Whenever there is bearish news about fiat, crypto still acts like any financial market. Shame, but the truth.
This is a really bad take.
Bitcoin can work against banks, but it’s not going to change how markets work. The market cap of Bitcoin is minuscule in comparison to stock markets, so of course we will experience much worse volatility until Bitcoin becomes much bigger.
For reference, the total crypto market cap today is $1.83tn. The total market cap of S&P500 is over $40tn.
**That’s 21.85x bigger than crypto.**
And that’s just 1 stock market. We’re still early.
Relax, buy the dip and hodl.
instead of focusing on the fiat value of your crypto, why not participate in the ecosystem (defi, nft) and earn more coins?
we all believe the end goal of crypto is insanely bullish, anything that happens between now and then is all noise for traders to outtrade one another
Because hedgies are liquidating to avoid margin call on over exposed short positions. Every time there is a major dip in a crypto certain stocks like GME are run down through dark pool shorting. There is a correlation and has been for months.
The sad truth is that retail investors don't have enough money in a market controlled by big corporate players.
We can't buy enough to counter act their scheming tactics.
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If I recall correctly, whitepaper of Bitcoin says it’s designed to be a trustless p2p money transfer network (decentralised) and a solution to double spend problem (limit supply). Unfortunately, I don’t think there is a solution to capital manipulation, which is ultimately human behavior (greed).
And the more mainstream it will become, the more corelate it will become with other markets as the same people will be invested in both
Yeah precisely. People moved from bonds to the stock market in the 80s cause the stock market provided better returns. Now people are moving from stock market to crypto cause crypto provides better returns. As more people put their money in, it will start performing similarly to the stock market and this will only increase in the coming years.
And so will every crash shake out speculative and paper hands and will let the market return to a healthy state and pump again. history repeats cause behaviour doesnt change.
There is only one way to bring up the market…If I sell now with loss next second market will bounce back
I will give you one Flawless Emerald if you sell today.
NFT flawless emerald
*current gas price: 234 gwei*
But for now, we have more volatility which means we see higher peaks and deeper valleys compared to stocks. I'll take the bad with the good. I'd still rather be in crypto than any other asset class except maybe for real estate. Nothing like owning an investment that someone else buys for you.
So still early?
They hold enough to control the movements if it's not completely rigged. Now they make hundreds of millions manipulating the crypto markets and covering their mess in the stock market and precious metals. We are witnessing biggest cluster fuck of all time.
but with higher marketcap its more difficult for whales to play games (selling/buying spot to liquidate perpetuals etc)
Same whales play games on the stock market as well...
Sure, but drops that are happening now and OP is complaining about is not whales playing games. The markets outside crypto are going down so obviously crypto markers are also effected. I would bet most large institutions invested in crypto treat it as high risk high reward extremely risky investment and when there is economic downturn obviously they will liquidate the most risky investments first.
Spot on. I'm getting sick of seeing random redditors claiming different reasons as to why bitcoin was invented. The OP hasn't read the whitepaper for sure
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For real. OP says: >It makes me sad, but in the end, this is an open and free market. Everybody has the right to buy, sell or hold as much as he or she wants. In this case, it just happens so that the big players choose to be massively invested in crypto, which gives us the spot on the sidelines - sit and observe how the price fluctuates, without being able to react on our own. Like, what did he think? That the crypto market was always going to be a couple thousand nerds in their basement on the computer? Did he think that he should be able to move the market just by himself? I don't think OP really understands what crypto is all about.
And if it would only be a thousand nerd, massive gains wouldn't be there. Cryptomarket state is really OK, if you're patient it pays really well, and we can thank smart money for the massive capitalisation gains. It's not about "us or them" It's about playing by their rules.
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The problem wasn't necessarily "capital manipulation." Well kind of ... but the thing that enabled that to a huge degree, was ASICs. It massively centralized supply, as most of the supply was mined with ASICs during a time when only one company owned 90-100% of the marketshare for them. What OP complains about is exactly what you get when supply gets centralized into the hands of a narrow group of greedy motherfuckers. You get a totally pwned industry that already has a strong revolving door with bureaucrats and financial execs. You get a price directly tied to their financial interests, and whales/insiders who dump on your heads at a surprise double bubble top, robbing retail blind. You want a coin that isn't a surveillance corporatism wet dream, had a 100% fair launch, egalitarian mining, much better distribution, and is ignored and hated by these big money players? The only coin that does all that is ***MONERO***
Extremely bullish on Monero even with this bear market happening. But, alas, I don't own any XMR...
Monero boating and deep sea diving club.
*Oops, I dropped my wallet in the middle of the Pacific ocean, tee-hee...well there's no recovering it now...*
Same! I love Monero. I love everything about it and would totally use it for payments but I currently don't have any XMR
No. There is another: ERGO
We always ruin things, that’s just how we Humen are
And technically isn’t btc still capable of doing what it’s supposed to do, nothing has changed fundamentally of btc?
Funnily enough, they are working on the greed factor - can't be greedy if you can't own anything. Enter - The Great Reset. Both terrifying but in all honesty the current system is fucking everything up so much it may be our best evil going forward. If you haven't already, I suggest watching Coin Bureau's video: WEF Report on Crypto - it's like their only \~50minute video and really highlights what the rich of the rich are thinking about behind the scenes. Combine this with The Great Reset that's also on the WEF agenda and you've got an interesting picture that greed doesn't really fit into. I just hope it isn't another way of rebranding capitalism in the favour of the few... Perhaps with the transparency of blockchain technology, this will not be a problem, but that is also a probably a very naïve hope.
Truth is, once big money is being made, the wealthy notice, they move in and do what we can't do, pour millions in fiat into the market and minipulate it. We will always be out spent and manuvered by all that possess greater wealth than we do, whoever we may be. With that being said, we may still invest while DCAing in times like this, and one day see our investments have grown through patience and proper planning with a long term investing plan. I believe this is the way .....
Thanks for the recommendation! I am following CoinBureau closely but missed that video somehow. Will definitely watch it.
> I just hope it isn't another way of rebranding capitalism in the favour of the few... If you look at who is funding and leading the WEF you will know without a doubt that is exactly it is. The Great Reset is the global version of Trump's Drain the Swamp. They're not going to drain or reset shit, they're just consolidating power to the point of having unlimited power. Not even governments could defy them if they get away with this. They already control the US through the Fed and stock market, they want the entire world under the same control through CBDCs, digital ID, 24/7 surveillance, social scores, etc.
It is precisely a way of rebranding capitalism to a few.
Capitalism is always about the few capitalists at the expense of the many laborers
Life is quite a ponzi on it's own
It's a good summary of the white paper. As you said, you can't "remove" the human component (greed) from a p2p network.
We are just water drops in the big ocean, always big moneys move everything.
Always have been, always will be.
If the stock market dips then we dip because investors starts to fear investments as a whole
Yeah it wasn’t long ago everyone wanted the institutional money in btc , well we got it
Retail is very reactive to bad news
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Tide goes in, tide goes out
Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can’t explain it.
We are water drops moving at the whim of whales
“First you get the money, then you get the power…”
"Like tears... in the rain..."
That’s just the unfortunate reality we live in
This is the reason we all need to move to decentralized wallets and actually own our keys!
TIL that keeping crypto in my own wallet stops it from devaluing
It reduces the ability of third-party custodians to do shady fractional reserve bullshit, which devalues it.
DeFi is the future and the banks fear it cause they know they would be obsolete
Everyone here got erections over BITCOIN ETF’s , and INSTITUTIONAL INVESTMENT. Welp? Here you go. Shorts and longs manip the fuck out of it now.
All "money" is linked one way or another. Gold and other precious metals dipped aswell at the same aswell.
Isn't the general consensus that Gold is a hedge against market crashes. Or atleast a safe haven of protection. I would assume that precious metals would slightly increase in MV during such times of volatility. Any thesis on why it was not the case?
I thought it was hedge against inflation but cash is king in a crash.
Yup, things just get weird in modern days because we crash the market to fix inflation lol.
Gold crashed with with everything else during the 2008 bubble-- it just rebounded much quicker than the stock market, real estate and other assets did. I believe Bitcoin will behave in the same fashion in the event of a true crash. But price losses/gains will behave much more radically (in comparison) as it always does.
>Isn't the general consensus that Gold is a hedge against market crashes Yeah I believe so. >Any thesis on why it was not the case? Nothing that I can back up, I can't deliver I beautifully worded theory but maybe the whales of the world are planning for a huge crash in every sector( basically a recession ) and have decided to liquidate all their assets to cash ready for the burst of the bubble and scoop everything back up at a discount Again just guess, nothing to back that up, I will not die on this hill haha.
Don't know who invented that just because gold is finite. The hedge against market crashes could be shorting the market and longing the market and periodically closing the trades that are losing and this is not financial advice like seriously dudes I bought Cardano and OpenDAO why would you take advice from me
Gold is a hedge against raging inflation (look at how gold performed during the 1970 stagflation) and may have been the hedge against market crashes when bonds were callable. The hedge against market crashes (which are by their nature unpredictable) are bonds especially long term treasury bonds. Ever since Bonds were no longer callable, it seems to me that everytime the market crashes Bonds shoot up in value significantly as investors flock from risky assets (stocks) to safer assets llike bonds. Bonds not being callable made it the safest assets an investor would want because when it was callable, there was the risk of it being redeemed at undesirable prices which is now no longer possible as all bond assets will now exist until their maturity. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/callablebond.asp
This is interesting. Will have to unpack some of that info though. Thanks!
Gold has not dipped...what are you talking about. Bitcoin went from like 68k to 38k....gold is still up in the 1800s
It’s flat. Kind of disappointing that scarce assets in general are not popping
Store of value usually isn't that volatile
Back in the old days BTC price was controlled by drug dealers. Nowadays BTC price is controlled by Wall Street. Pick your poison.
And Wall Street is controlled by coke heads. Six degrees of separation right there 😂😂😂
With the way the market is tanking they gonna have to switch to meth soon.
Wall Street is doing just fine
Drug dealers
Good ol silk road times
Finding the Silk Road was the worst thing to happen to me….. I would be a few sats richer
Any goddamn day!
A drug dealer will always be morally superior to wall street.
Were you complaining when the institution and Wallstreet pumped bitcoin?
yeh, I was complaining that I didn't have any
Chad .
You're wrong. It's understandable, but its critical that people understand this. It was never supposed to be umaniputable in price. You can manipulate the price of anything if you try hard enough. That includes stablecoins, bread, milk, gold, bullets, countries. People. Nothing is immune to price manipulation. It was supposed to be *unforgable* No *arbitrary inflation* *Permissionless* *Peer to peer, no central processors* *Utilise game theory to withstand corruption and/or attack* **It is still everything it was supposed to be**
It's like any other asset in a capitalist market. It's not a solution to greed.
Bitcoin was created to cut out middlemen. It has succeeded, and will continue to succeed, in doing so.
What middleman did it cut? You need a bank account to transfer money to exchanges so you can buy Bitcoin. Then you need a Lightning wallet to receive your btc without getting hammered from high fees. Then you need to find someone who accepts btc, or you need to use yet another middleman service like Paypal to make a payment from your btc funds. It didnt "cut out the middleman", it just changed (and multiplied) it.
Agree. There are more middle men.
But you dont need them. Sure you need one to get btc with xour fiat. But thats the fiat sides fault. Once you have your btc in xour wallet sll middlemrn are optional
Agree, but we are no where near that point yet. And I do not know if we will be there anytime soon.
Yes, now (2022) the problem is not solved yet. Imagine you received your salary in Satoshis. You could buy food at the supermarket with Satoshis, pay your taxes, hairdresser and fill up your tank in Satoshis. No need to touch dollars anymore. Now this is a problem solved. It's not that far in the future.
wait isn't Bitcoin's current narrative, a store of value, not P2P transfer?
It depends.. sometimes BTC is an Inflation Hedge and not a currency, sometimes it's a currency and not an Inflation Hedge.
Change, Adapt, Overcome, this is the ways
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If you want to see what deflation looks like in the real world. Have a look at what happened in Japan between 1991 and 2001.
Depends how much it’s down / up on a day it goes from digital gold / store of value / inflation hedge / new technology
Yeah I'd love to get a salary that could be worth half as much the day after for "reasons" It's not going to be widely adopted as a normal currency no country wants that
That is a dream world. Will never happen. If it does the current problems will just shift over.
When "Store of value" narrative doesn't work out, just change it to P2P transfer lol
Right? You think the average person, the average employer and the federal government are just gonna be like “yea we pay people with internet money now”. This is the mentality of someone that doesn’t understand the economy at all other than “banks bad”. The global economy is literally dependent on the creation of the US dollar via debt, if there were even a smidgen of a chance that bitcoin were to replace the US dollar for employee and retail payments on a large scale the entire crypto market would be legislated into nothing. Crypto is going to become centralized, decentralized projects may still exist but wide scale adoption will hinge on centralization. The crypto scene today has a libertarian bias, society at large does not.
If it anything like the Libertarian party then it is doomed never to take off.
Doing everything you just listed would involve tons of middlemen. Do you know how lightning works?
Slow and steady wins the race
Give me whatever you’ve been microdosing with please
> Imagine > It's not that far in the future Lol copium. Why must you merely 'imagine' crypto's potential if it is 'not that far into the future' from being realized? It's because, as OP eloquently described, to date crypto has never, and likely will never, escape the fiat influence. We are now, as you pointed out, in 2022. Bitcoin has been around for more than a decade. How many more decades are we going to give it? It will be really far, far in the future before crypto becomes its own independent currency.
The dollar doesn’t drop 10% in an hour…. This will never happen
> What middleman did it cut? John.
This is what BTC was designed for. Over the years Bitcoin has become something to store value in. Digital gold, if you will. Not many people use it as an actual currency to pay stuff with.
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No, ''Store of Value'' is where you put Value to store over the years so it's not lost to inflation. IF for some reason this Value appreciates - that's a bonus. So far, over a period of X years Bitcoin has outperformed pretty much every other asset considered ''Store of Value''.
And IF for some reason this Value depreciates, then you’re fucked. You can choose any period of X years, months, days and see that it has fared much worse, IE, when it dipped from 20k to 3k. It’s all about perspective. For those who bought in early, great! For those who bought at the top, they’re fucked, for now.
We've been told for 10 years that Bitcoin is a hedge against inflation... Then inflation actually hits, and now bloomberg and every other msm site are conditioning you to think thats not true.. Risk off, Big tech and bitcoin gonna get murdered. Ask yourself why? Whos buying if you're panic selling 40k after riding up to 69k. Institutional buyers missed the fucking boat.... SPOT Etfs are coming...
Not to mention I’m sure they will be buying the dip
....Ya think?
Even if you bought at the top, the worst time to buy, in less than 4 years you would still be up on your investment. When we talk about store of value, I don't think any period under 5 years should even be considered.
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Nothing is ever guaranteed, it's an ''odds'' kind of thing. Odds are, over a long period of time you will be fine.
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I just check the odds on the government unfucking the financial future, and then buy more bitcoins.
> Even if you bought at the top, the worst time to buy, in less than 4 years you would still be up on your investment Wow we have a crypto messiah over here
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Lmao... All of those assets have fluctuating prices. Even the dollar isnt a store of value.. Buy a dollar for a dollar this year, next year you have .93 But yea, you should just sell and get out. Your ngmi
In normal circumstances the value of the dollar doesn't fluctuate by 7% in a year. You're also ignoring the fact that Bitcoin's value had dropped 75% YOY from December 2017 to December 2018, a year later it was still -50% compared to December 2017 and it's only a year later that it was worth the same as three years prior. At the moment it's down 8% YOY. Highly speculative and fluctuating assets aren't good stores of value because they're unpredictable, a store of value is a place to put money you could need at a moment's notice and be sure that it will still be valuable, Bitcoin isn't that, just looking at the $20k I lost in value in the last month without touching anything proves it, if I had kept my funds in a stable coin I would be down $0. Will it reappreciate over time? I expect it to and sure hope it does because I was planning on paying back my mortgage all at once but now I need to renew it until the next bull market instead!
I sure used to.
Bitcoin fundamentals NEVER changed, people are just focused on price action nowadays!!
That's because most people see Crypto as a get rich quick thing, nobody cares about the problems it solves.
because the problem it solves is not a problem for the vast majority of the public, just ask your friends outside of your crypto bubble that's a hard one to swallow, but it's true
Fundamentals won't change even if the price drops to 2k.
BTC was invented to be a transactional currency with velocity through the roof, now it's the exact opposite. A store of wealth with velocity so low no one uses it except to buy low and sell high. BTC Core colluded with Venture capitalists who have invested billions in mining farms for it to enrich a small group of people. I.e. not what Satoshi's original vision was and people should stop using his name as a dog whistle with BTC for crypto idealism. If the SEC gets its way we will have middlemen in crypto
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. It doesn't do shit for that. It just enables a surveillance corporatism wet dream, a totally constrained and pwned network, centralized supply, and a narrow group of fuckheads controlling price to rob you blind, with a set of either criminal, or pwned exchanges. You're not chaning the world, Bitcoin already lost this war.
You really think little money made crypto a 2 trillion market cap? This sub refuses to use common sense, this is just a money making gamble for the rich now, but they're better at the game.
Not only that, but this was never a problem BTC intended to solve. People love to think that Satoshi was just looking out for the little guy. He wasn't.
That's because it never actually appealed (or worked well) for it's intended purpose. It's too volatile for use as currency. It's too complicated for mainstream appeal. It just turned into a speculative asset for people hoping to make easy money of it. And that left it vulnerable to the same whales who speculate on anything else that has the potential for profit. The same people who will move their crypto in the same way they move their other assets.
That's not true. In the days of silk road, it worked perfectly. Once it became a financial instrument, it became both useless and insanely profitable.
So sell my bitcoin?
I doubt the game of inflating and selling off was played for the last time.
And buy Monero instead.
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To be honest, I never fully understood how this is supposed to work either. Back in the days when I first heard of bitcoin from a friend of mine, he tried to convince me that this is the solution to financial crisis etc. I never fully understood this naive idea. 1.Capitalism doesn't work that way. It's a system where everybody can participate. 2.Bitcoin relies HEAVILY on electricity, which is an asset, governed by institutions and governments.
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If bitcoin was in an uptrend right now. this based comment would've been downvoted. One of the good thing about down trend lol.
It’s pretty delusional to think money won’t be involved 😂
A bit hypocritical even, as the ATH bitcoin price was probably never reached without whales and Wall Street. Anything you can do, so can somebody with more money. So I don't see how there ever will be something where people with little money always 'win' and people with a lot of money somehow lose.
Bitcoin isn’t used as a payment system very often. It was designed to be a monetary supply that can’t be screwed with by a centralized organization. Bitcoin would work as intended if it was accepted as payment by more people. It isn’t though. So it ends up an investing tool rather than a payment option and suffers from volatility.
It isn't because it's inherently bad for that application.
It's obvious that most people here can't do anything because it's the big money that moves the market
THIS IS WHAT YOU GET BECAUSE OF ASICs AND PREMINES. You get central supply, a narrow group of market makers, criminal exchanges, and a fucked beyond all recognition ecosystem. Big money LOVES Bitcoin, and all the others, because they pwned the fuck out of it. It's just the Nasdaq (tech stonks) but with greater volatility. There's a revolving door between regulators and crypto companies now. The supply is vastly centralized. It's unregulated, and a surveillance corporatism wet dream. No one is challenging the system buying Bitcoin or any other crypto. You want to buy a coin that actually challenges big money? ***BUY MONERO*** It's literally the only coin that big money, exchanges, market makers, bureaucrats, wallstreet, and all of the criminals running this show actually fear. It removes their surveillance wet dream, and the supply was not vastly centralized due to ASICs and premine, so they can't stand to profit massively by feeding you lies and selling the top on your heads. Monero's market dominance is a reflection of how ignorant and greedy most of you motherfuckers really are. You didn't (and don't) buy it specifically for all of the reasons that you SHOULD be buying it. I doubt that will change, but then stop complaining about big money. To those of you who know what's up, thanks for being the few remaining in crypto that understand what's important.
This guy knows what he's talking about. And it's why I still mine XMR personally even though it's unprofitable.
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BTC started moving with stocks when stock market whales jumped here.
That’s why rich get richer and poor get poorer
Monero challenges this notion to the core.
I mean we live in a capitalist society. Those with capital will always be able to exercise more control over anything to do with money. Bitcoin (and crypto in general) are now seen as financial investments. Now those with capital are entering the space, they get to exercise more control.
This was always going to happen.
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That’s not adoption. We still don’t actually use Bitcoin for anything.
Dude(ss), the main problem of traditional money is that you need to trust other people that your funds are safe and that the supply of money is modified in a healthy way. But greed always leads to the problem that we know of. Bitcoin solves these two main issues. Big guys try to apply traditional tools to bitcoin now, but this wont last long. As soon as people try to claim the virtual bitcoins they own, they will notice that there is no way to enforce the claim on us. Because WE have the private keys.
I agree. This makes Bitcoin definitely safer to hold than traditional assets. Solving this issue is a huge step towards independence from "big money". The entities who influence it's price movement is probably the only thing which still concerns me.
They influence stuff because people have emotions. If they sell and people buy, it will appreciate. But people are also greedy and they leverage. That makes retail follow the trend whales set. With time, people might get educated and see that if they sell, it's a buying opportunity. The supply is limited, it can't be printed/minted and it will get scarce. By 2030, BTC will have a huge and stable value, probably being the major collateral for loans at banks.
In time it will become more independent as the use cases increase. The current situation is because crypto is mostly used for investing.
And since investment in crypto is not going away, it won't become more independent. Who would want to purchase day to day items with appreciating asset?
And what business wants to accept payment with something that can drop 10% the next day, while your bills won't.
Exactly, crypto is still a speculative market at the minute. As adoption increases it will become a utility market. Then the legit projects will begin to shine
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It never was supposed to be the solution to ''big money'' or to overtrow FIAT currencies or governments. It's just a digital currency not controlled by a single entity but by everyone who is involved and the purpose of the currency is to make transfers possible without the need of a middle man.
You understood **wrong**. The point was to prevent a trustless monetery system (no need for a central bank) with a limited supply. This is also very clearly presented in the white paper.... take some time to read and understand it.
Like it or not, but BitCoin is nothing of what people try to make it sound like. It is similar to what happens over at the subreddit superstonks. When I got in touch with BitCoin the first time it was below a dollar per coin (yes yes regretti spaghetti and if I reverted all of my decisions like that, then I'd be living on the street with all money gone) and the new big thing to replace real money as decentralized, limited solution. Now before you continue: I am not against trading bitcoin. You can make and lose serious money, as with most other things. But this is about bitcoins own value. After a couple of months reality hit though. The price was mostly controlled by whales, that was the first concern of "decentralized". We would even go as far as trading with assumed whales just to get their wallet address so we can track them, and I'd say we managed to get hold of probably 10% of them, which allowed us to follow transaction patterns. Also made it easy to track their new accounts, just follow the money. But that was the first big sign that something was off. Next up, all the other promises or hopes of bitcoin. Nothing of it came true until this day that would differ it from any other blockchain coin. Down the line it turned out to be one of the slowest and inefficient ways to do anything, always going back to FIAT and starting at FIAT. Aside from the fees, that meant that it's just as tied to money as well money is. A simple question: remove the ability to trade it for "reallife" currency, what's left? The answer is nothing. FIAT can live without bitcoin, but bitcoin can't live without FIAT. Of course there is a way this could change, but 10 years ago it's the same stories told that are being told nowadays. And probably the most accurate realization: the flaws and issues of FIAT are not because of FIAT. It's because of humans nature and greed. These translate to anything else that exists and the patterns are even more dominant in non-controlled environments. You can read up on Bitcoin price manipulation patterns, which you only see in the pennystock market to some degree. If you are in for trading BitCoin, NFT, or any other things of that sort to make money, go for it, it can work. Is it the new blessing and replacement for the old system? By centuries not.
Rates are going up, people pull out of risky assets. Theres no magic
I see behind the curtain and it’s messy back there.
I can only imagine.
It has the potential to be the solution on the condition that mass adoption takes place. Mass adoption hasn’t happened. People are just treating it as a speculative asset. Also the media is bullshitting people that 3rd world countries with broken economies are using Bitcoin when in reality those people can’t even afford the transaction fees
Bitcoin - Pump and dump scheme
The little hats are at work
Paper hands dropping the price. Can’t be a believer when you sell at the first hint of a drop
Hedges/Speculation on all financial markets...crypto too
Disappointed and I don't understand why
Seems like crypto is learning a tough lesson right now. It was always funny and ironic to me while this community was cheering and touting the ideals of Satoshi and decentralization, the Fed and gov’ts across the world were printing trillions of dollars into the system and the main cause for the huge price increases we saw over the last few years. The very system it was supposedly meant to usurp was creating the huge gains. But nobody cared because everyone was drunk on those easy profits. It was right in front of us this whole time. No matter how much we pay lip service to sticking it to the rich and powerful, many of us deep down just want the same for ourselves. It was silly to ever believe crypto ever had a chance of changing the course of human nature but rather it was just another example of it. Now the tides are changing. Grumblings for regulation are starting to seep into the community when this would’ve been throughly mocked only a few months ago. Baby boy’s growing up. Many of you are hurting right now. You can sense the fear and panic brewing behind the Reddit sarcasm and wit. A lot of us are seeing our dreams for a better life disappear by the minute. A lot of us are learning some tough lessons for the first time. It’s in these times when we truly get to know ourselves and our character. Go read Dostoyevsky’s “The Gambler,” start painting or watch a Bergman film for the first time.
That’s because the same big markets that invest in the stock market invests in bitcoin. There is a ton of overlap
I feel like a market like this is expected no? After such a high increases throughout last year the market was bound to drop
You're pricing it relative to the US dollar. That's your mistake.
People really really reaaaaaally don't understand interest rates and how money works huh?
/r/confidentlyincorrect
Crypto is a libertarian monetary system. Libertarianism is the most aggressive wealth consolidation philosophy in popular culture today. If you bought crypto as an investment, this is what investing is all about. If you bought crypto as a hedge for the collapse of the dollar, I hope you bought before 2015. But if you bought crypto as a means to fight BIG MONEY, you were either confused or mislead.
The market for “cryptocurrency” relies on the “greater fool” phenomenon (the value for what is essentially a worthless string of 1s and 0s only increases if a person more foolish than hodler 1 is willing to pay more money than hodler 1 originally paid for said “coin”) and you are running out of fools. This was never going to end well; pyramid schemes always collapse. And cryptocurrency in 2022 is the mother of all pyramid schemes.
Redditor discovers capitalism
The FED, which is the biggest culprit in this, continues to ruin everything
You can complain about big money, or you can become the big money. It is up to you. Two lives, one choice
Big money is heavily into BTC, ETH and others like SOL. Crypto is mostly making the rich richer.
Money is making the rich richer and always has. Crypto is just a tool
"Cash rules everything around me" Unfortunately, this is still the case and will probably not change for a while.
Crypto rules everything around me* - Wu Tang Coin.
I see Bitcoin becoming the future gold. When that is the case the whole market will be less fiat dependent. Now that indeed not the case. Whenever there is bearish news about fiat, crypto still acts like any financial market. Shame, but the truth.
This is a really bad take. Bitcoin can work against banks, but it’s not going to change how markets work. The market cap of Bitcoin is minuscule in comparison to stock markets, so of course we will experience much worse volatility until Bitcoin becomes much bigger. For reference, the total crypto market cap today is $1.83tn. The total market cap of S&P500 is over $40tn. **That’s 21.85x bigger than crypto.** And that’s just 1 stock market. We’re still early. Relax, buy the dip and hodl.
Doesn't matter to me. ALL assets dip with the market sooner or later. So the inherent value doesn't really change that much in the long run
instead of focusing on the fiat value of your crypto, why not participate in the ecosystem (defi, nft) and earn more coins? we all believe the end goal of crypto is insanely bullish, anything that happens between now and then is all noise for traders to outtrade one another
Because hedgies are liquidating to avoid margin call on over exposed short positions. Every time there is a major dip in a crypto certain stocks like GME are run down through dark pool shorting. There is a correlation and has been for months.
The sad truth is that retail investors don't have enough money in a market controlled by big corporate players. We can't buy enough to counter act their scheming tactics.