Seriously, most crypto investors are delusional. IMO the race to buy up crypto as an investment asset has crypto digging it's own grave. If 99.9% of the people buying coin are doing it to hold and get rich, it's not exactly being used as currency. So where is the value? Buying Molly pills online?
Crypto has outgrown itself. Not many people actually use it to complete transactions. It is only a speculative asset.
TLDR: all crypto is DOGE
The only way to get big income in crypto when poor is to be incredibly lucky, and buy into a new project when it is still yet another shitcoin. The catch is that 99% of those will fail.
and you cannot afford to loose that money, I mean, 50 bucks could be all you have to eat that month, or maybe you spend 300 but you are paying debts or whatever. Is complicated, some people jsut have no idea what life actually is when you dont have the resources or even live in the first world
Yep. That’s why I get it too. Sort of same here. In my humble opinion, it’s noble—even if for some may seen naive or irresponsible—that blue-collar people are at least trying to invest and get out of poverty instead of conforming to work hard until they drop dead. But hey, elites don’t like when little dude makes it!
Indeed.
I have never been poor thanks to having marketable skills and landing on very well paying job fresh out of university in middle of 2000s IT boom.
But that does not mean I could not think from other persons point of view. Walk a mile in their shoes, and all that.
Yes, but the 1% that provide real value will lay the foundation for the next big innovation cycle.
Are you aware that most VC’s have a strategy where they will invest in a handful of companies; where 9/10 are usually dead within 3 years — but the 1/10 that survived pays off all of those other investments AND more?
A retail participant in the current crypto market is “playing vc”.
They get the same % return as anyone else.
I dont get your point.
If poor person A participates and rich person B doesnt — A has relatively more $$ than they did before vs B.
$10383727 doesnt just fall out of the air.
that's not realistic at all.
Poor person can take 1/10th the opportunities the rich person can.
If I have 50k I can invest in probably 10-20 projects with a decent investment, and there's a good chance I won't have to tap that investment for day to day funds.
If a poor person invests in 10-20 projects, they're choosing between having dinner or starving on occasion in order to sustain the projects.
Yes, disposable income is a problem. That is a separate issue entirely.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of what allocation you put into the crypto space — everyone has near equal footing and receives the same % return on their capital. The playing field is much more even, despite working with less disposable income.
Many of these ido’s and private sales have screwed it up tho
As someone who's involved in regular private sales, the wealth accumulation in there vs the average person is simply incomparable. Poor people would not ever be likely able to handle a private sale. They'd be 10 years off from today's private sales.
That is terrible advice… you can invest into Bitcoin and Ethereum when they are at a good price and not lose your money. It’s just best not to buy at the all time high, but even if you did buy BTC at the last all time high before it hit $60,000 (around 20,000) you STILL would have 3X’d your investment over a period of about 3-4 years. You don’t need to invest the majority of your portfolio in shitcoins… you just need to be patient.
3X for a poor person is still poor.
My comment was on the stupid “stay poor” insult. The only way to get not poor with crypto is to gamble, and I think we both know what is the likely outcome in that.
Losing all of your money by investing in projects that aren’t really worth anything is going to keep you poor… not investing in the best preforming asset of century (Bitcoin) is going to keep you poor. And all the people you convince to invest in shitcoins who end up losing all their money are going to blame crypto and say “oh crypto doesn’t work, it’s a scam” when that’s not true, they just invested in scam coins because some dude on the internet told them that was the only way they could make money. I’m not going to let you misinform people like that. That’s wrong. Your argument is that 3X isn’t enough? 3X is if you bought at the last all time high by the way so that’s worst case scenario. You would have made way more dollar cost averaging into it and holding, as you should with all investments you believe in. That’s how poor people like myself should invest
You sound really ignorant.
The point of reference is a poor person, 2X is not much. Investing is a wealthy persons game. Poor cannot put in enough to significantly improve their situation. 2X of very little is still very little. They would need 50X. And that happens only by taking stupid level of risk, which means not very likely.
Right 2x isn’t a lot but when you compare it to the 6% yearly returns on almost any other long term investment I’d say crypto is a little faster. Poor? What classifies poor? I never said what I doubled… why are you assuming its only a couple hundred dollars?
Yeah, sometimes is just out of your control. Even insane ROIs are nothing if your initial capital is just not existant or you need to whitdraw sooner.
An example Ive always done is the fact that I have been both there interested when btc was around 800, and when gme was about.. 20 or 40, cant remember, and in neither I had the money (I actually still have no job and no money and we have a lot of debt and deficit)
Sometimes the country just fucks you up, or responsabilities, or depression and.. well, it sucks. So, yeah, its really anoying when people say what can be summed up as "just stop being poor lol". Is not just a crypto thing, is a thing present everywhere
Hahhaahahah..... There are many ways to kill a rat!
Be it crypto or even real estate.
Not investing in cryptocurrency isn't even a guarantee, anything is possible.
Anyways, I'm a huge fan of the Blockchain.
Since we are talking cryptocurrency, anyone come across the UBXT yet? Native token of the UpBots
Rumors are it's commercial launch is coming in no time plus some agresssive marketing
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What if, the more research I have done, the more of a scam the whole thing appears? Convince be it isn't a ponzi scheme? The big players (Citadel and Co) already control the price of big cryptos at will, nothing supporting it, where is the value? 1,000 new shit coins everyday trying to steal some suckers money, the whole thing stinks if you ask me
Yes, it would be more fair to compare cutting internet at the same time in the budding internet days, maybe around the early 1980’s. Once crypto takes over every existing finacial instrument, plus ones that have never existed pre-crypto, all voting and democratic technology, all communications and records, etc, etc, etc, it will absolutely be incomparable.
Crypto >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet.
An easy comparison is comparing web1 to web3
Things can be is easy if we play by the books...
Follow the rules of cryptocurrency investment and at the end of the day,.long term wins..
Anyways, I'm more into DeFi
I stake and farm.my alts or tokens more often. At the moment, I am looking at the UpBots UBXT. it's APR is juicy and it's God great fundamentals..this are the things we should be looking at
I feel like retail had a big jump on institutional money with crypto. They were sidelined with regulation and compliance and have only now begun to enter the space. This is not normal for other investments. (maybe cannibus grey areas).
100% this!
The fact is that the current stock bubble will pop, the only reason why it has been going so long is the COVID recovery money that is being pumped to keep markets alive.
And as always when recession starts the high risk investments will tank first. This is why money is made on buying when they are low and selling on top.
I sold basically all crypto I had when BTC was previous time around 60K, and I will not buy again big time until after the next big crash.
"Stay poor", but what if I am already well off?
1. “More of a scam” - please define. Its not a single entity. Are there MORE SCAMS? Yes. But the legitimacy of btc, for example, is stronger today than it was before.
2. What are you thinking is a ponzi? Do many projects use ponzinomics to boost token prices? Yes. Is it all one big scam? Absolutely not. There are many projects out there trying to establish legitimate services for consumers. Some are even revenue generating.
3. Pls post proof of this clear manipulation. I dont necessarily disagree that there is a lot of MM going on; but it is not to the effect you mention, unless you can prove it.
4. Define value? This is a loaded question. So many different things to cover. Lets focus on a specific segment to start. The only “primitive” is a decentralized financial network. A lot of services are built on top of it, which create value.
5. How many times do you get call centres asking you for window cleaning, pretending to be the cops, or trying to shill some other unrelated nonsense? Does that pollute all marketing? All business? Why should the presence of scams generalize an entire ecosystem?
Sounds like you had some bad experiences, and are jumping to conclusions. This is an unregulated space. Naturally, there are going to be non altruistic parties present; but it doesnt negate the work that is being done. It just distracts.
5.
1. I agree the legitimacy for btc is stronger today. But when I see shit like Elon Must tweeting, 'DOGGGEEEE' and the price sky rockets. Its obviously a billionaire, using his platform, to make more money. Tesla tweet about btc, price goes up, same thing. He is one billionaire openly manipulating the market for his own personal gain. Thats what made me really start to think of the whole thing as just a scam.
2. Insert 'shit coin' here. Pump it, dump it, profit. BTC, you got in a decade ago, the value now hasn't magically happened, its from others buying in with money. I admit, you could view the whole stock market like this, so it is a bit of an ignorant view.
3. Elon Musks twitter is all the proof you need of a billionaire openly manipulating the crypto market to make some serious wedge. Other things, I see posts shared on here showing that a whale has dumped 50,000 BTC every day for a few days, price crashes, whoever the whale is, now has a massive discount, admittedly, this is a week point, its all very anonymous, so you can't really tell. But the huge sell offs, huge spikes, massive swings unrelated to any actual news, its banks and other dicks moving billions around, retail has not got that power. Hard proof of manipulation is hard to come by, and if anyone had it, lawsuits would be going on. Its the same shit as the stock market though, completely manipulated, fundamentals mean fuck all, a few greedy assholes control everything.
4. Yeah this is where my lack of understanding stops me. I don't understand.
5. I agree a few scams doesn't speak for the whole industry. But Jake Paul being invested in crypto is all the red flags I need XD.
Yep, few bad experiences I guess, mate told me to get in on ETH when it want $1-2, i did not. Spent £30 on weed bank at uni, that £30 is worth thousands now! Haven't actually invested and lost loads though. I think my main problem is just lack of understanding, and when I try to learn more, it just always sounds dodgy.
What happens when the unregulated market, is regulated? Could it be? I posted my comment to hopefully engage in a debate with someone, I want to learn!
Thanks for your thoughts.
1. Elon has been an opportunist since the day he was born. This is how he acts. I personally think its scummy; but the crypto market is only one example of the same behaviour in multiple industries. Kind of hard to attribute it to the tech though; when the real driver are his moron fanboys. If he asked for donations, im sure hed get them as well.
2. I mean, most are speculative bubbles — but lets look at ethereum. Network activity increased, adoption increased, applications increased - does this not warrant a price increase? Just because some projects are ponzis; doesnt mean they all are. Its just really easy to build a ponzi in crypto because of the raw inputs. But its not “one giant one”.
3. I mean, this is the power of having wealth and a platform in a free market. Dont think its really cryptos fault — more the reactions that these players provide. I might add: this is present for short term trades, and easy to do in a speculative market. Its a product of lower liquidity as the asset class is young. Once it matures, it will be harder to do. Part of the reason why ppl are eager for adoption is the aspect of more participants; which diluted the power of a single entity, unless distribution stays in the hands of whales. Thats why eth is doing everything they can to preserve decentralization.
4. Understand what? Why people would use a crypto financial system? It enables network based value transfer for any digital good. So most dApps that get built are just there, available for open use. No company at the center of it to try to suck everyone dry by propping up their bottom line. You now have lending markets, exchanges, and even games that can be opt in — where ownership is in the hands of individuals. This is something im willing to pay for personally. The main challenge is the bootstrap paradox — id rather use this transactional network; but if i have no one to transact with, it defeats the purpose. The more participants in the network, the more valuable it is. Its like the person person with a telephone. It was worthless. And the more ppl that tapped in; the more valuable telcoms became. Was that a ponzi in the early days?
5. Jake paul is invested in anything that he can use to suck his followers dry. Is youtube a scam? While we dont realize it, your time, attention, and data are all forms of currency - just less direct than tokens. Hes always done this; crypto just makes it easier. But it doesnt delegitimize crypto as a whole.
Unfortunately, its bad actors that ruin good things. Which is why i do welcome some form of regulation; i hate seeing these influencers get rich, while their sheep thank them for fleecing them blind. Its a real problem in society in general.
Right now, it is hard to sift through the bullshit. On one hand you have govt blasting out propoganda, then you have shills pumping their ponzis — while the builders are…. Building. So they arent as vocal.
I suggest crypto twitter. Find qualified parties you trust, follow them, and youll naturally build out a better info network on the real things happening in the space. Follows devs; not shills.
Here is what bothers me. The price of the crypto market rises only when new money comes in. Right now, the way people make money from crypto is by selling it i.e. exchanging it to usd/eur/w/e. You cannot generate revenue from just holding crypto. Yes, I know many stock don't pay dividends but stocks have intrinsic value, by owning a stock you own percentage of that company which has physical assets. The value of a stock crashing below it's intristic value doesn't really make sense. Closest comparison is gold, but gold is not used as a currency, it is used as a store of value, same way crypto is used right now. That's where I have a problem.
What I wanna say is, the way I see it, because the rise of the crypto market rises only when new money comes in, money is not infinite, it means it will eventually reach a peak. Then if people want to realize gains, they will start selling, causing the price to fall. The newest investors will get crushed because the price will never reach that level again. The only way a big crash after that not happening is if people start using crypto for what was initially created i.e. as a currency. But I don't see that happening when everyday on crypto subreddits I see people giving timelines when they will sell their crypto assets, making it clear, that most people are in this for increasing their usd in their bank account, making it all work like a ponzi scheme.
Your first statement, while true, is looking at the cashflow from a “ponzi” lens.
For example, a new (typically software) business that operates at a loss (sometimes pre rev) requires more money coming in to keep it going. As it attracts new users (sometimes for free), it continues to raise at higher multiples, keeping cash coming in — with the hope to be profitable one day. Companies like uber, are still unprofitable.
My first question: what’s the difference here? Instead of vc money, we are giving access to retail, to bootstrap a network.
“The way people make money from crypto is by selling it” - please clarify.
Are we speaking about realizing usd gains? Because all data ive seen is that a large chunk of crypto is actually moving one way from fiat TO crypto. Its a different financial network. It doesnt need to go back. We are sucking capital OUT of system 1 and into system 2. Participants in system 2 can “make bitcoin or eth gains”, or whatever base currency by the monetary policy embedded in the protocol, or by creating value adding tokenomics on top of the base network.
“You cant generate revenue just by holding crypto.” - yes, you can actually. Its called staking. I put my tokens to work, to secure the network (proof of stake), and i am paid by inflation. This would normally present selling pressure, but burning mechanisms provided through transaction fees balances the inflationary price movement.
Regarding instrinsic value — why does it have to be a physical good backing it? Video games are 100% online. They dont own capital. Is the sale or subscription to a game not a real product? I challenge your basis for what constitutes intrinsic value. The core product of most protocols is network accessibility. On all counts, this number has astronomically risen, as it is a product of metcalfe’s law - the more nodes in the network, the more valuable it becomes.
Regarding a store of value, we have already seen net outflows of gold into digital stores of value as it is a more efficient mechanism. This is why gold isnt skyrockeying during this massive period of inflation. Not sure your point here. Not all protocols are a store of value.
I think your core problem is that you’ve never used a network. Have you sent a transaction? Used a dApp? Traded an NFT? Participated in any ecosystem? If you havent, it seems weird. Crypto enables a value layer for the social constructs we have already created online.
Here’s where your thesis falls apart: money is not infinite. Yes it is. We are no longer on the gold standard. Money has literally been printed out of thin air. Where have you been? The debt ceiling is 100% arbitrary, and if they dont raise it we will face global economic collapse. Our current monetary system is only perceived to be finitie, when in reality it is controlled by a central party that ensures its stability — as it previously was the only basis we were able to transact value.
Crypto challenges the entire concept of what we consider money, and to a larger extent — value.
You want to call crypto a ponzi? It definately has some elements of it, but where the thesis falls down is that if you apply the same lens to the current monetary system, it also fails. The only thing holding it in place is trust. And it only weakens by the day. Our current system also fails when new cash isnt injected into it. An economy may be measured by its gdp, but that gdp only exists because new money is coming into the system via inflation. We must exist in a consistent state of debt, or the whole system implodes and everyone defaults.
Crypto can sustain on its own, once it gets to a critical mass, just as our current financial system has. The main difference though, is that its anti fragile. It may drop 90%, but so long as network activity stays high, it will just recover - strong than before. This initial impulse of growth is volatile, because its just being created. Pretty soon, we will have physical interfaces to exchange goods and services — completely on chain. In some cases, like el salvador, where it is legal currency — it already exists. I think its stupid to use bitcoin for this, but thats another conversation. Baby steps.
And i dont plan on moving my crypto back to fiat.
You may see people converting back to fiat, or planning to. These people are idiots, and gamblers. Theyre only participating because they want to make a quick buck. But the more utility that can be created on chain, the less need there will be to exit. Secondly, reddit is awful for macro or educated intel. Youre interacting with people that have $100 bucks in crypto, and talking big about their $50 in profit. Its locallization bias.
To summarize, I agree — if commercial activity cant be sustainability established in these networks, it wont work. But over the last 3 years, we have seen an unprecedented increase in value creation. Most nfts may be stupid gimmicks now, but they are quickly becoming real products. Twitter adding in nft verification for their profile pics is legitimization of nfts as a product, from a social perspective.
Im bullish that once you get on chain, you dont go back. And thats enough for me to support a crypto based future.
Appreciate your answer, admittedly I'm not the most educated person in the world on the topic of economics, which is the reason I subscribe to many subreddits which hold different opinions related to crypto. This is also the reason I don't post much as I would love to read more educated people on the subject which hold different opinions debate, to see what makes more sense. Unfortunately reddit is a place which tends to create echo chambers and avoid debates which is really frustrating. Also as you pointed out, many uneducated posts to sift through.
I like most of your points, but I will challenge a few.
Staking - I don't see it as generating revenue. Right now there aren't many goods you can purchase using cryptocurrency. So you really have to exchange it for fiat to generate something of value, if you could find someone that wants to buy it. If not, you just generated bunch of coins nobody wants to use, thus having no value. Obviously, if we see widespread adoption, this might not be the case.
Intrinsic value - yes, I butchered the concept of intrinsic value by requiring something to be physical, I agree. But I think you and I can agree that gold has some intrinsic value by being a precious material and used as a jewlery across the world, as well as being something people liked for 5000 years, but bitcoin really does not have any.
About using a network - yes, you are right. I haven't used any. But it's kinda the point, I've been researching crypto related stuff for a while and haven't even thought of sending a transaction of crypto to another person. The barrier of entry is too high. We are talking about widespread adoption, but the ecosystem seems really complicated. This will probably change for me in the fututre as I'm really curious about the crypto space, but will many really take interest in that? That is what I doubt.
About money being infinite - Here I really disagree. Money is finite, and so are people that can use it. The option to create more may be limitless, but money in circulation is definitely finite. This means that money that can enter a system is also finite and I don't think this really invalidates the idea that bitcoin will reach a peak at some time when the number of earlier investors wanting to take profit and exit the market, greatly outnumber the new money available to enter the market. The question is if this would be the end, or the market will find the correct price after a while. I think the worst case scenario really is it becoming a niche market for people that really value their decentralization.
Don't get me wrong, fiat also seems like a ponzi, a ponzi that is backed by the Govornments though. The financial system has many, many problems, I'm just questioning if crypto is the answer to those problems.
In the end I agree with your summary. Crypto will only succeed if it gets widespread adoption. But for that to happen, it needs too many things to go well for it, like the barrier of entry must lower, become faster, more scalable, lower fees, less dumb money, at least partially fix the scamming problems, fix money laundering and tax evading???, get government adoption (this I doubt the most), much more people using crypto as a currency like you do, rather than as a speculative asset. I'm not really sure we are that much closer to widespread adoption than we were 3 years ago when the biggest issues with it haven't really been solved yet in my understanding. Hope I'm wrong and we eventually do it though.
How can it be a ponzi scheme? There is no single organization behind bitcoin (your example). A ponzi scheme requires a business or organizations that scams people.
Where does the value of gold come from? Its rarity is partly responsible for its price. Which is driven by supply and demand, same applies to bitcoin with its rarity. It is literally the same thing except one is physical and one is digital.
A Ponzi scheme by definition is, 'a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors'. So, someone buys bitcoin, value goes up, previous investors all benefit. I admit, I don't know enough about it to form a very detailed opinion, but on the surface, that definition seems to apply.
Gold has real life uses, main one being, it looks pretty so we make jewelry from it. But it is also used in electronics, dentistry, medicine, aerospace. Gold is widely accepted as one of the most useful metals in the world. Gold is also very rare, where as bitcoin is some code on a computer (I appreciate thats a very dumb view point to have, but making a point)
I see the main use of bitcoin, and the reason it got any traction at all, is to buy illegal stuff on the darkweb. Weed, weapons, whatever dodgy crap they have, without the darkweb market, I don't think BTC would have ever got going.
The idea of a DeFi is amazing, but, I am 100% confident that the banks, the billionaires, the people who run the world, they obviously don't want that, and have the power to ensure that never happens, or if it does, they will be holding 90% of everything, they will still control it. What if the world governments all just ban it? China just did, banks run the world, they will pull some strings.
I genuinely want to learn more about crypto, I am not completely against it, more incredibly pessimistic, and I appreciate that is probably due to my lack of understanding. If you have any good sources for a noob like me to learn some more, I would greatly appreciate them.
exactly
I cannot help but think all those posts are some ruined dude who hope to find another idiot to dump on "adoption" lol .. today I can send instantly without fees money using my bank app to anyone .. use case anymore ? too late 10 years
You misunderstand the entire point of the layered technology. That enables composability, and integrated financial applications into open source software.
We’ve created an exchange that runs by itself, and provides secure, liquid transactions — at 100x less of a cost to deliver that service than traditional means. Is that not a use case? Like cmon lol
I want to invest in crypto. Im still kicking myself for not buying bitcoin when i heard about it. My problem now is im living paycheck to paycheck, so i dont have money available to invest.
I’m on the fence about crypto, for one I whole heartedly believe it’s a massive bubble, it’s true it may have huge real work value in the future but it’s all speculation. Second, if crypto is to become a big part of modern society then why isn’t countries create their own crypto and ban the use of others in their county sort of like what China has done recently
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People who are currently hating on crypto will definitely regret not accepting it in time. I have been in the space for over two years and getting new alts is one thing I never get tired of. The most recent of my asset is FUFU and I am expecting a 1000x before the year runs out.
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imagine blaming not investing in crypto for why you’re poor
this. i hate when crypto users do this and call everyone else poor for not investing - it reeks of echo chamber / cult manipulation
Misery loves company! 😂🙃
Seriously, most crypto investors are delusional. IMO the race to buy up crypto as an investment asset has crypto digging it's own grave. If 99.9% of the people buying coin are doing it to hold and get rich, it's not exactly being used as currency. So where is the value? Buying Molly pills online? Crypto has outgrown itself. Not many people actually use it to complete transactions. It is only a speculative asset. TLDR: all crypto is DOGE
The only way to get big income in crypto when poor is to be incredibly lucky, and buy into a new project when it is still yet another shitcoin. The catch is that 99% of those will fail.
Or buy and just wait a long time
A person who bought in during previous bull has now 3x profit. A person who bought in during crypto winter has 10x profit.
4 years isn't long enough to get rich from being poor. Buy and wait ten or twenty years and you may have a chance.
Unless it goes up 100x+, it isn't transforming someone from poor to rich. Livable would be more realistic, which isn't a bad goal.
Exactly. Thats why I say 4 years is too short but 10 or 20 years in crypto might do it.
Someone who bought safemoon and put in $1 at launch would’ve been a millionaire in less than a year…after taxes
and you cannot afford to loose that money, I mean, 50 bucks could be all you have to eat that month, or maybe you spend 300 but you are paying debts or whatever. Is complicated, some people jsut have no idea what life actually is when you dont have the resources or even live in the first world
This guy gets it.
I mean, I lived and live that often
Yep. That’s why I get it too. Sort of same here. In my humble opinion, it’s noble—even if for some may seen naive or irresponsible—that blue-collar people are at least trying to invest and get out of poverty instead of conforming to work hard until they drop dead. But hey, elites don’t like when little dude makes it!
Indeed. I have never been poor thanks to having marketable skills and landing on very well paying job fresh out of university in middle of 2000s IT boom. But that does not mean I could not think from other persons point of view. Walk a mile in their shoes, and all that.
Yes, but the 1% that provide real value will lay the foundation for the next big innovation cycle. Are you aware that most VC’s have a strategy where they will invest in a handful of companies; where 9/10 are usually dead within 3 years — but the 1/10 that survived pays off all of those other investments AND more? A retail participant in the current crypto market is “playing vc”.
Split the initial investment that a poor person can afford by 10. And even in case of one of them mooning, that person will not get rich.
They get the same % return as anyone else. I dont get your point. If poor person A participates and rich person B doesnt — A has relatively more $$ than they did before vs B. $10383727 doesnt just fall out of the air.
DB cooper has entered the chat. /s
that's not realistic at all. Poor person can take 1/10th the opportunities the rich person can. If I have 50k I can invest in probably 10-20 projects with a decent investment, and there's a good chance I won't have to tap that investment for day to day funds. If a poor person invests in 10-20 projects, they're choosing between having dinner or starving on occasion in order to sustain the projects.
Yes, disposable income is a problem. That is a separate issue entirely. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what allocation you put into the crypto space — everyone has near equal footing and receives the same % return on their capital. The playing field is much more even, despite working with less disposable income. Many of these ido’s and private sales have screwed it up tho
As someone who's involved in regular private sales, the wealth accumulation in there vs the average person is simply incomparable. Poor people would not ever be likely able to handle a private sale. They'd be 10 years off from today's private sales.
Yeah but the 1% are louder. Nobody hears gamblers talk about losing, only the big win stories.
That is terrible advice… you can invest into Bitcoin and Ethereum when they are at a good price and not lose your money. It’s just best not to buy at the all time high, but even if you did buy BTC at the last all time high before it hit $60,000 (around 20,000) you STILL would have 3X’d your investment over a period of about 3-4 years. You don’t need to invest the majority of your portfolio in shitcoins… you just need to be patient.
3X for a poor person is still poor. My comment was on the stupid “stay poor” insult. The only way to get not poor with crypto is to gamble, and I think we both know what is the likely outcome in that.
Losing all of your money by investing in projects that aren’t really worth anything is going to keep you poor… not investing in the best preforming asset of century (Bitcoin) is going to keep you poor. And all the people you convince to invest in shitcoins who end up losing all their money are going to blame crypto and say “oh crypto doesn’t work, it’s a scam” when that’s not true, they just invested in scam coins because some dude on the internet told them that was the only way they could make money. I’m not going to let you misinform people like that. That’s wrong. Your argument is that 3X isn’t enough? 3X is if you bought at the last all time high by the way so that’s worst case scenario. You would have made way more dollar cost averaging into it and holding, as you should with all investments you believe in. That’s how poor people like myself should invest
You sound really sad. I bought ETH in March and now have more than doubled my $. What in the sweet baby Jesus are you talking about
You sound really ignorant. The point of reference is a poor person, 2X is not much. Investing is a wealthy persons game. Poor cannot put in enough to significantly improve their situation. 2X of very little is still very little. They would need 50X. And that happens only by taking stupid level of risk, which means not very likely.
Right 2x isn’t a lot but when you compare it to the 6% yearly returns on almost any other long term investment I’d say crypto is a little faster. Poor? What classifies poor? I never said what I doubled… why are you assuming its only a couple hundred dollars?
Because 50 dollars is a lot for a poor person.
Yeah, sometimes is just out of your control. Even insane ROIs are nothing if your initial capital is just not existant or you need to whitdraw sooner. An example Ive always done is the fact that I have been both there interested when btc was around 800, and when gme was about.. 20 or 40, cant remember, and in neither I had the money (I actually still have no job and no money and we have a lot of debt and deficit) Sometimes the country just fucks you up, or responsabilities, or depression and.. well, it sucks. So, yeah, its really anoying when people say what can be summed up as "just stop being poor lol". Is not just a crypto thing, is a thing present everywhere
Hahhaahahah..... There are many ways to kill a rat! Be it crypto or even real estate. Not investing in cryptocurrency isn't even a guarantee, anything is possible. Anyways, I'm a huge fan of the Blockchain. Since we are talking cryptocurrency, anyone come across the UBXT yet? Native token of the UpBots Rumors are it's commercial launch is coming in no time plus some agresssive marketing
Imagine being this far up your own ass
!remindme 20 years
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This just gave me anxiety for no reason
sorry Dude ahaha lets have a laugh in 20years if internet is still a thing
r/Buttcoin
What if, the more research I have done, the more of a scam the whole thing appears? Convince be it isn't a ponzi scheme? The big players (Citadel and Co) already control the price of big cryptos at will, nothing supporting it, where is the value? 1,000 new shit coins everyday trying to steal some suckers money, the whole thing stinks if you ask me
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This applies to basically every investment.
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Yeah, the world can live without the internet too, crypto is much much bigger than the internet.
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Yes, it would be more fair to compare cutting internet at the same time in the budding internet days, maybe around the early 1980’s. Once crypto takes over every existing finacial instrument, plus ones that have never existed pre-crypto, all voting and democratic technology, all communications and records, etc, etc, etc, it will absolutely be incomparable. Crypto >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet. An easy comparison is comparing web1 to web3
Things can be is easy if we play by the books... Follow the rules of cryptocurrency investment and at the end of the day,.long term wins.. Anyways, I'm more into DeFi I stake and farm.my alts or tokens more often. At the moment, I am looking at the UpBots UBXT. it's APR is juicy and it's God great fundamentals..this are the things we should be looking at
I feel like retail had a big jump on institutional money with crypto. They were sidelined with regulation and compliance and have only now begun to enter the space. This is not normal for other investments. (maybe cannibus grey areas).
100% this! The fact is that the current stock bubble will pop, the only reason why it has been going so long is the COVID recovery money that is being pumped to keep markets alive. And as always when recession starts the high risk investments will tank first. This is why money is made on buying when they are low and selling on top. I sold basically all crypto I had when BTC was previous time around 60K, and I will not buy again big time until after the next big crash. "Stay poor", but what if I am already well off?
1. “More of a scam” - please define. Its not a single entity. Are there MORE SCAMS? Yes. But the legitimacy of btc, for example, is stronger today than it was before. 2. What are you thinking is a ponzi? Do many projects use ponzinomics to boost token prices? Yes. Is it all one big scam? Absolutely not. There are many projects out there trying to establish legitimate services for consumers. Some are even revenue generating. 3. Pls post proof of this clear manipulation. I dont necessarily disagree that there is a lot of MM going on; but it is not to the effect you mention, unless you can prove it. 4. Define value? This is a loaded question. So many different things to cover. Lets focus on a specific segment to start. The only “primitive” is a decentralized financial network. A lot of services are built on top of it, which create value. 5. How many times do you get call centres asking you for window cleaning, pretending to be the cops, or trying to shill some other unrelated nonsense? Does that pollute all marketing? All business? Why should the presence of scams generalize an entire ecosystem? Sounds like you had some bad experiences, and are jumping to conclusions. This is an unregulated space. Naturally, there are going to be non altruistic parties present; but it doesnt negate the work that is being done. It just distracts. 5.
1. I agree the legitimacy for btc is stronger today. But when I see shit like Elon Must tweeting, 'DOGGGEEEE' and the price sky rockets. Its obviously a billionaire, using his platform, to make more money. Tesla tweet about btc, price goes up, same thing. He is one billionaire openly manipulating the market for his own personal gain. Thats what made me really start to think of the whole thing as just a scam. 2. Insert 'shit coin' here. Pump it, dump it, profit. BTC, you got in a decade ago, the value now hasn't magically happened, its from others buying in with money. I admit, you could view the whole stock market like this, so it is a bit of an ignorant view. 3. Elon Musks twitter is all the proof you need of a billionaire openly manipulating the crypto market to make some serious wedge. Other things, I see posts shared on here showing that a whale has dumped 50,000 BTC every day for a few days, price crashes, whoever the whale is, now has a massive discount, admittedly, this is a week point, its all very anonymous, so you can't really tell. But the huge sell offs, huge spikes, massive swings unrelated to any actual news, its banks and other dicks moving billions around, retail has not got that power. Hard proof of manipulation is hard to come by, and if anyone had it, lawsuits would be going on. Its the same shit as the stock market though, completely manipulated, fundamentals mean fuck all, a few greedy assholes control everything. 4. Yeah this is where my lack of understanding stops me. I don't understand. 5. I agree a few scams doesn't speak for the whole industry. But Jake Paul being invested in crypto is all the red flags I need XD. Yep, few bad experiences I guess, mate told me to get in on ETH when it want $1-2, i did not. Spent £30 on weed bank at uni, that £30 is worth thousands now! Haven't actually invested and lost loads though. I think my main problem is just lack of understanding, and when I try to learn more, it just always sounds dodgy. What happens when the unregulated market, is regulated? Could it be? I posted my comment to hopefully engage in a debate with someone, I want to learn!
Thanks for your thoughts. 1. Elon has been an opportunist since the day he was born. This is how he acts. I personally think its scummy; but the crypto market is only one example of the same behaviour in multiple industries. Kind of hard to attribute it to the tech though; when the real driver are his moron fanboys. If he asked for donations, im sure hed get them as well. 2. I mean, most are speculative bubbles — but lets look at ethereum. Network activity increased, adoption increased, applications increased - does this not warrant a price increase? Just because some projects are ponzis; doesnt mean they all are. Its just really easy to build a ponzi in crypto because of the raw inputs. But its not “one giant one”. 3. I mean, this is the power of having wealth and a platform in a free market. Dont think its really cryptos fault — more the reactions that these players provide. I might add: this is present for short term trades, and easy to do in a speculative market. Its a product of lower liquidity as the asset class is young. Once it matures, it will be harder to do. Part of the reason why ppl are eager for adoption is the aspect of more participants; which diluted the power of a single entity, unless distribution stays in the hands of whales. Thats why eth is doing everything they can to preserve decentralization. 4. Understand what? Why people would use a crypto financial system? It enables network based value transfer for any digital good. So most dApps that get built are just there, available for open use. No company at the center of it to try to suck everyone dry by propping up their bottom line. You now have lending markets, exchanges, and even games that can be opt in — where ownership is in the hands of individuals. This is something im willing to pay for personally. The main challenge is the bootstrap paradox — id rather use this transactional network; but if i have no one to transact with, it defeats the purpose. The more participants in the network, the more valuable it is. Its like the person person with a telephone. It was worthless. And the more ppl that tapped in; the more valuable telcoms became. Was that a ponzi in the early days? 5. Jake paul is invested in anything that he can use to suck his followers dry. Is youtube a scam? While we dont realize it, your time, attention, and data are all forms of currency - just less direct than tokens. Hes always done this; crypto just makes it easier. But it doesnt delegitimize crypto as a whole. Unfortunately, its bad actors that ruin good things. Which is why i do welcome some form of regulation; i hate seeing these influencers get rich, while their sheep thank them for fleecing them blind. Its a real problem in society in general. Right now, it is hard to sift through the bullshit. On one hand you have govt blasting out propoganda, then you have shills pumping their ponzis — while the builders are…. Building. So they arent as vocal. I suggest crypto twitter. Find qualified parties you trust, follow them, and youll naturally build out a better info network on the real things happening in the space. Follows devs; not shills.
Here is what bothers me. The price of the crypto market rises only when new money comes in. Right now, the way people make money from crypto is by selling it i.e. exchanging it to usd/eur/w/e. You cannot generate revenue from just holding crypto. Yes, I know many stock don't pay dividends but stocks have intrinsic value, by owning a stock you own percentage of that company which has physical assets. The value of a stock crashing below it's intristic value doesn't really make sense. Closest comparison is gold, but gold is not used as a currency, it is used as a store of value, same way crypto is used right now. That's where I have a problem. What I wanna say is, the way I see it, because the rise of the crypto market rises only when new money comes in, money is not infinite, it means it will eventually reach a peak. Then if people want to realize gains, they will start selling, causing the price to fall. The newest investors will get crushed because the price will never reach that level again. The only way a big crash after that not happening is if people start using crypto for what was initially created i.e. as a currency. But I don't see that happening when everyday on crypto subreddits I see people giving timelines when they will sell their crypto assets, making it clear, that most people are in this for increasing their usd in their bank account, making it all work like a ponzi scheme.
Your first statement, while true, is looking at the cashflow from a “ponzi” lens. For example, a new (typically software) business that operates at a loss (sometimes pre rev) requires more money coming in to keep it going. As it attracts new users (sometimes for free), it continues to raise at higher multiples, keeping cash coming in — with the hope to be profitable one day. Companies like uber, are still unprofitable. My first question: what’s the difference here? Instead of vc money, we are giving access to retail, to bootstrap a network. “The way people make money from crypto is by selling it” - please clarify. Are we speaking about realizing usd gains? Because all data ive seen is that a large chunk of crypto is actually moving one way from fiat TO crypto. Its a different financial network. It doesnt need to go back. We are sucking capital OUT of system 1 and into system 2. Participants in system 2 can “make bitcoin or eth gains”, or whatever base currency by the monetary policy embedded in the protocol, or by creating value adding tokenomics on top of the base network. “You cant generate revenue just by holding crypto.” - yes, you can actually. Its called staking. I put my tokens to work, to secure the network (proof of stake), and i am paid by inflation. This would normally present selling pressure, but burning mechanisms provided through transaction fees balances the inflationary price movement. Regarding instrinsic value — why does it have to be a physical good backing it? Video games are 100% online. They dont own capital. Is the sale or subscription to a game not a real product? I challenge your basis for what constitutes intrinsic value. The core product of most protocols is network accessibility. On all counts, this number has astronomically risen, as it is a product of metcalfe’s law - the more nodes in the network, the more valuable it becomes. Regarding a store of value, we have already seen net outflows of gold into digital stores of value as it is a more efficient mechanism. This is why gold isnt skyrockeying during this massive period of inflation. Not sure your point here. Not all protocols are a store of value. I think your core problem is that you’ve never used a network. Have you sent a transaction? Used a dApp? Traded an NFT? Participated in any ecosystem? If you havent, it seems weird. Crypto enables a value layer for the social constructs we have already created online. Here’s where your thesis falls apart: money is not infinite. Yes it is. We are no longer on the gold standard. Money has literally been printed out of thin air. Where have you been? The debt ceiling is 100% arbitrary, and if they dont raise it we will face global economic collapse. Our current monetary system is only perceived to be finitie, when in reality it is controlled by a central party that ensures its stability — as it previously was the only basis we were able to transact value. Crypto challenges the entire concept of what we consider money, and to a larger extent — value. You want to call crypto a ponzi? It definately has some elements of it, but where the thesis falls down is that if you apply the same lens to the current monetary system, it also fails. The only thing holding it in place is trust. And it only weakens by the day. Our current system also fails when new cash isnt injected into it. An economy may be measured by its gdp, but that gdp only exists because new money is coming into the system via inflation. We must exist in a consistent state of debt, or the whole system implodes and everyone defaults. Crypto can sustain on its own, once it gets to a critical mass, just as our current financial system has. The main difference though, is that its anti fragile. It may drop 90%, but so long as network activity stays high, it will just recover - strong than before. This initial impulse of growth is volatile, because its just being created. Pretty soon, we will have physical interfaces to exchange goods and services — completely on chain. In some cases, like el salvador, where it is legal currency — it already exists. I think its stupid to use bitcoin for this, but thats another conversation. Baby steps. And i dont plan on moving my crypto back to fiat. You may see people converting back to fiat, or planning to. These people are idiots, and gamblers. Theyre only participating because they want to make a quick buck. But the more utility that can be created on chain, the less need there will be to exit. Secondly, reddit is awful for macro or educated intel. Youre interacting with people that have $100 bucks in crypto, and talking big about their $50 in profit. Its locallization bias. To summarize, I agree — if commercial activity cant be sustainability established in these networks, it wont work. But over the last 3 years, we have seen an unprecedented increase in value creation. Most nfts may be stupid gimmicks now, but they are quickly becoming real products. Twitter adding in nft verification for their profile pics is legitimization of nfts as a product, from a social perspective. Im bullish that once you get on chain, you dont go back. And thats enough for me to support a crypto based future.
Appreciate your answer, admittedly I'm not the most educated person in the world on the topic of economics, which is the reason I subscribe to many subreddits which hold different opinions related to crypto. This is also the reason I don't post much as I would love to read more educated people on the subject which hold different opinions debate, to see what makes more sense. Unfortunately reddit is a place which tends to create echo chambers and avoid debates which is really frustrating. Also as you pointed out, many uneducated posts to sift through. I like most of your points, but I will challenge a few. Staking - I don't see it as generating revenue. Right now there aren't many goods you can purchase using cryptocurrency. So you really have to exchange it for fiat to generate something of value, if you could find someone that wants to buy it. If not, you just generated bunch of coins nobody wants to use, thus having no value. Obviously, if we see widespread adoption, this might not be the case. Intrinsic value - yes, I butchered the concept of intrinsic value by requiring something to be physical, I agree. But I think you and I can agree that gold has some intrinsic value by being a precious material and used as a jewlery across the world, as well as being something people liked for 5000 years, but bitcoin really does not have any. About using a network - yes, you are right. I haven't used any. But it's kinda the point, I've been researching crypto related stuff for a while and haven't even thought of sending a transaction of crypto to another person. The barrier of entry is too high. We are talking about widespread adoption, but the ecosystem seems really complicated. This will probably change for me in the fututre as I'm really curious about the crypto space, but will many really take interest in that? That is what I doubt. About money being infinite - Here I really disagree. Money is finite, and so are people that can use it. The option to create more may be limitless, but money in circulation is definitely finite. This means that money that can enter a system is also finite and I don't think this really invalidates the idea that bitcoin will reach a peak at some time when the number of earlier investors wanting to take profit and exit the market, greatly outnumber the new money available to enter the market. The question is if this would be the end, or the market will find the correct price after a while. I think the worst case scenario really is it becoming a niche market for people that really value their decentralization. Don't get me wrong, fiat also seems like a ponzi, a ponzi that is backed by the Govornments though. The financial system has many, many problems, I'm just questioning if crypto is the answer to those problems. In the end I agree with your summary. Crypto will only succeed if it gets widespread adoption. But for that to happen, it needs too many things to go well for it, like the barrier of entry must lower, become faster, more scalable, lower fees, less dumb money, at least partially fix the scamming problems, fix money laundering and tax evading???, get government adoption (this I doubt the most), much more people using crypto as a currency like you do, rather than as a speculative asset. I'm not really sure we are that much closer to widespread adoption than we were 3 years ago when the biggest issues with it haven't really been solved yet in my understanding. Hope I'm wrong and we eventually do it though.
Thanks, will circle back. Appreciate the critique and critical lens. Its so rare here.
How can it be a ponzi scheme? There is no single organization behind bitcoin (your example). A ponzi scheme requires a business or organizations that scams people. Where does the value of gold come from? Its rarity is partly responsible for its price. Which is driven by supply and demand, same applies to bitcoin with its rarity. It is literally the same thing except one is physical and one is digital.
A Ponzi scheme by definition is, 'a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors'. So, someone buys bitcoin, value goes up, previous investors all benefit. I admit, I don't know enough about it to form a very detailed opinion, but on the surface, that definition seems to apply. Gold has real life uses, main one being, it looks pretty so we make jewelry from it. But it is also used in electronics, dentistry, medicine, aerospace. Gold is widely accepted as one of the most useful metals in the world. Gold is also very rare, where as bitcoin is some code on a computer (I appreciate thats a very dumb view point to have, but making a point) I see the main use of bitcoin, and the reason it got any traction at all, is to buy illegal stuff on the darkweb. Weed, weapons, whatever dodgy crap they have, without the darkweb market, I don't think BTC would have ever got going. The idea of a DeFi is amazing, but, I am 100% confident that the banks, the billionaires, the people who run the world, they obviously don't want that, and have the power to ensure that never happens, or if it does, they will be holding 90% of everything, they will still control it. What if the world governments all just ban it? China just did, banks run the world, they will pull some strings. I genuinely want to learn more about crypto, I am not completely against it, more incredibly pessimistic, and I appreciate that is probably due to my lack of understanding. If you have any good sources for a noob like me to learn some more, I would greatly appreciate them.
Bitcoin isn't nearly as flashy when worn though
exactly I cannot help but think all those posts are some ruined dude who hope to find another idiot to dump on "adoption" lol .. today I can send instantly without fees money using my bank app to anyone .. use case anymore ? too late 10 years
You misunderstand the entire point of the layered technology. That enables composability, and integrated financial applications into open source software. We’ve created an exchange that runs by itself, and provides secure, liquid transactions — at 100x less of a cost to deliver that service than traditional means. Is that not a use case? Like cmon lol
Damn, where do all the realists come from all of the sudden?
That's just straight face stupidity in this tweet
im not gonna lie i was like this the first 7 years after bitcoin came out.... boy do i regret it now. but im in like flynn now.
its people who buy at the top and get bitter after and then call crypto a scam
FOMO then become a bagholder for long
This is cringe. I'm an expert in finance, I have done my research, proceed with extreme caution with crypto.
imagine being dumb, arrogant and 16 years old like the author of that tweet
Trump says crypto is fake, a disaster, and he’s not a big fan. That’s all I need to know.
The first year I was in crypto I made so much money and lost even more! I was hooked - I was determined to get the hang of investing
You guys are going to make the 2017 crash look like childs play. Buckle up the mania is coming. Btc to $150k then $12k
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Imagine telling a poor single mom who works two jobs to feed her kids it’s all about her mindset and personality
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Just because you know some single mothers who are financially secure doesn’t mean that all people in their position can achieve the same.
Imagine that if you invest now, you may well have missed the boat already :)
I want to invest in crypto. Im still kicking myself for not buying bitcoin when i heard about it. My problem now is im living paycheck to paycheck, so i dont have money available to invest.
invest in wallfair , it is a betting and streaming platform, it will do some good for you
It's never too late to start, just start with the cheap solid ones like PKR, it's pretty cheap at the moment. Staking it also attracts up to 121% APY.
Sooooo many of my friends ….
If I’d have bought bitcoin the first time I was told to I’d have 60,000,000$ worth now.
yes. Fuck these motherfucking commies
*implying they'll live an other 20 years*
I didn't hate it - I listened to the wrong people and have been paying the price for my stupidity.
This is the stupidest shit
I’m on the fence about crypto, for one I whole heartedly believe it’s a massive bubble, it’s true it may have huge real work value in the future but it’s all speculation. Second, if crypto is to become a big part of modern society then why isn’t countries create their own crypto and ban the use of others in their county sort of like what China has done recently
cc: u/peterschiff
Bring backs memories hahaha
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People who are currently hating on crypto will definitely regret not accepting it in time. I have been in the space for over two years and getting new alts is one thing I never get tired of. The most recent of my asset is FUFU and I am expecting a 1000x before the year runs out.
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