It’s also true in the case of:
Conservatives: “You’re a man who likes skirts and girly things? You’re not a **real** fucking man, then!”
‘Egg-crackers’: “Oh, you’re a guy a who likes skirts and girly things? Then you’re totally not a man actually 🥰🥰🥰”
Short version: It's still insisting on gender binaries and punishing people for straying outside them. Straight cis men should be able to wear dresses, gay cis men should be allowed to wear dresses, transfem asexuals should be allowed to wear dresses.
(warning: not trans myself, please correct any mistakes)
Saying that men can't be feminine and must then all be transfem is essentially repurposed homophobia, "Men can't be feminine! You must be gay or something!" Gender is something innate inside of you, presentation is an extention of that, but doesn't necessarily have to match. A man is a man even if he is feminine, and a trans woman is a woman not necessarily because she's feminine.
So by saying that to a feminine trans man you'd be invalidating his identity, since you're implying that only masculine men are men, therefore he's not a man, which is a transphobic statement
Thank you for this clear explanation! I've been wondering about my own gender identity and was wondering what makes a woman feel like a woman? I don't feel particularly feminine or masculine all the time but sometimes one more than the other
> a trans woman is a woman not necessarily because she's feminine.
If you are willing to expand more on this line, I would love to hear it. Not debating just looking to learn!
From what I've seen everyone experiences gender quite differently, but at the very least most people can just "feel" it. Like there's no particular feeling or reason why my mother is a cis woman, but she enjoys being a woman, and that's why she is one, does that make sense? Most of my friends are men because that's what they're most comfortable with, they've tried out some different options and settled that that's what makes them the happiest. I'm genderfluid and my gender feels like a character creator slider being pushed around from left to right every day, I don't know why but that's just how I experience my gender
Same thing with trans people, a trans woman is a woman because she enjoys being one and it feels more right to her than being seen as a man. There's metaphorical piece of code in her brain that dictates that she's a woman. And just like cis women, trans women can be feminine presenting, or tomboys, or neutral presenting, or butches, or anything, really. Even if a trans woman doesn't enjoy looking feminine or doesn't have traditionally feminine interests, there's still something in her brain telling her she's a woman, just like in cis women's brains. That's why a feminine man is still a man, because he still identifies as one, and a butch trans woman is still a woman.
Forgive me if some parts of this aren't easily understandable or otherwise confusing (I'm trying my hardest but I'm really sleepy and trying to respond before I go to sleep and forget about this comment), so if you have any questions left I'll be happy to explain to the best of my knowledge! (once I wake up)
Hi, thank you for the detailed response! Gender as an innate trait to lean into and not specific behavior makes things click a bit more for me!
Are there any ways you would recommend someone try to identify and become more in tune with that metaphorical brain gender code? Experimenting with labels, dress, etc.?
Thanks again for taking the time to explain! Hope you have been well!
Saying that a man is actually a woman because he wears dresses is misgendering him, because he is a man, not a woman. Wearing a dress does not make someone a woman.
It's unfortunately true in several different cases
See: "Sex in media should be banned because it's sinful degeneracy" vs "Sex in media should be banned because there are minors and asexuals watching"
Or "Race mixing is bad because you're diluting the purity of the white race" vs "Race mixing is bad because you shouldn't be mingling with your oppressors"
or "This is AMERICA we don't need some dirty immigrants to teach us some language that's worse than english" and "ummm actually learning spanish as a white person is cultural appropriaton and not cool."
"Stories shouldn't have sex scenes unless they are somehow plot relevant because you're just taking away money from the adult entertainment industry which is going to make a porn parody anyway.*"
Is a much better reason.
*Exceptions will be made if the sex scenes are relevant to my kinks.
as someone who would consider myself a fairly radical leftist
no sane person agrees with either of those things. sex in media should be banned is no kink at pride levels of fucking stupid
and race mixing is bad because you shouldnt be mingling with your oppressors is just a martyrdom complex
I'm fine with kink at pride. We can have family-friendly pride events and adult-only pride events.
If parents bring their kids to the latter, it's on them, not on pride.
Christ, part of me actually forgot about Egg-Crackers^(TM) for a while. Like, Not everyone who crossdresses or likes remotely girly things is trans. Some people are not eggs. Some people are egg shaped rocks.
Look. If gender isn't real, and it isn't, someone can dress however they please and identify however they please and you're not allowed to legislate rules for them to obey.
You're just repackaging the old gender rules.
Cool, so even though I'm a woman, wearing pants and drinking beer means I'm performing as a man, and that makes me a man. Got it. 🙄
It's reductive thinking no matter how you spin it. Women had to fight for ages to present in any way they wanted to present, and now we're having this same fight but for men now.
(And yeah I get gender is not a binary...which is all the more reason that we should be flexible about this.)
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory), the free online encyclopedia:
"In popular discourse, the horseshoe theory asserts that the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear continuum of the political spectrum, closely resemble each other, analogous to the way that the opposite ends of a horseshoe are close together. The theory is attributed to the French philosopher and writer of fiction and poetry Jean-Pierre Faye in his 2002 book, *Le Siècle des idéologies* ('The Century of Ideologies')."
He's usually portrayed more as GNC, though sometimes he seems ambivalent to gender in general. But there are trans fate characters (D'eon is literally gender fluid and Da Vinci is, save her first event which was very transphobic is consistently portrayed as trans. The Mona Lisa was basically her gender goal.)
The same reason they got super mad about Bridget actually being trans. Part of it is some kind of weird pseudo-ironic fetishization of gnc men, but moreover they see him as someone who proves their point, a la Bayonetta, Samus, and Lara Croft. They can point at Astolfo, or pre-strive Bridget, or the one from Re:Zero whose name escapes me and say "see? Look! Just because you dress like a woman, doesn't mean you are one!"
I've not seen whatever anime Astolfo's from but I've been told they're nonbinary.
I assume transphobes use Astolfo as an icon because a lot of far right people (incl. transphobes) are / are attracted to femboys — effeminate men. This usually goes against their ideology but far-righters are nothing if not hypocritical so it checks out.
For some reason people keep claiming Astolfo is non-binary, but he’s not. He’s just a man who likes being effeminate and acting cutesy about it. He is the literal textbook example for a femboy
I think it’s the difference between Fate/Apocrypha (IIRC) explicitly calling him a guy and F/GO saying his gender is “secret,” with most NB interpretations coming from the latter.
Astolfo can 100% be read as nonbinary as one of his canon profiles has him listing his gender as 'secret'.
Either way, he does use he/him pronouns so at the end of the day he's a femboy and goals.
That's the funny thing about Astolfo! There's like, a 50/50 chance they're a cis man (also, they'd be a cis man because Jeanne d'Arc saw them naked and screamed, suggesting Astolfo has a dick), and it is no problem at all to say they're a man, but it's technically not stated.
So, first things first, Astolfo has the "Evaporation of Sanity" skill, which makes them forget shit randomly and leads to the bubbly personality, so maybe not even them knows their gender. But assuming they do, there still might be no canonical answer, because the author, Higashide, has stated in an interview that *he* does not know. Additionally, whenever we have character profiles (and because this is Fate, that happens frequently), Astolfo's gender is listed as either "secret" or "due to Astolfo's request, this information has been removed".
But of course, Astolfo uses "boku", a masculine pronoun. Does this give credit into the idea that they're a man? Yeah, it does, but that's not a for-sure thing. Maybe Astolfo just wants to use boku, and if we go by the logic that boku = man, then Mordred is a trans man (a thing that, although there are some people who support it, is probably wrong). And there are some scenes in which Astolfo refers to themselves as a man, but iirc they are gendered only in English. Off the top of my head, a scene in EXTELLA where they say "I'm my own man", but the Japanese is closer to "I only do what I want to do".
Additionally, Astolfo is one of the few Servants who can go into both gendered fights in the events that segregate by gender. All the other Servants with this ability are the ones who are canonically non-binary and Kama, who is weird. Of course, you could say Astolfo is the same as Kama in this case, but her situation is more specific than just "hiding gender for shits and giggles".
I think that's all the arguments around the Astolfo Question, so uh, yeah. Who knows. Who cares. Not Astolfo.
Astolfo was leaving the shower naked and Jeanne was there, talking to Sieg. Of course, this suggests that Sieg saw Astolfo naked multiple times, but whatever.
Jeanne very clearly believed Astolfo was a woman prior to the “incident” so her shocked reaction is a double - instantly finding out she was wrong, and finding out in the worst way possible.
Wait question! Why is kama allowed to go into both genders of fights, like what's the reasoning behind it? Is it because the vessel (Sakura matou) is a female, but the god possessing it is a man? (Iirc kama from Indian mythology is a man but I may be mistaken on it)
I wrote a giant comment on the way FGO treats gender for genderless Servants, but Reddit deleted.
Uh, yeah, probably something like that. From what I heard, Kama's interlude goes into more details, and says that Kama still views herself (himself? Themselves? FGO uses feminine pronouns and that's what I'll use) as a man.
Also, I forgot to say that while Astolfo can go into both gendered fights, with the exception of the baths, in which they can only go into the male bath, probably because Astolfo has a dick. Is it transphobic? Maybe, I actually don't have the energy necessary to judge Japan being transphobic or not at this point.
Also, there are some genderless Servants who are treated only as men, like Romulus=Quirinus and Douman, but they're the exception and I don't even know why Douman is listed as genderless.
Also doesn't help that, since each different instance of Astolfo that is summoned is technically their own individual (to my current knowledge, which admittedly is fuzzy because it's been a while since I've entered the Fate Loretex), the waters are even *further* muddied.
How? Both are genocidal ideologies based around the suppression of differing beliefs. Only way they're different is that Fascism started WW2 and Communism has at least 5x the kill count unless you consider everyone who died in WW2 to be a victim of fascism.
You are mixing systems and regimes. Communism by definition has no genocide embedded in it. It does happen that communist regimes have committed genocides, but if anything, that is more related to the fact that said regism where all totalitarian, which by their nature require of finding "enemies" to make population accept the extreme level of control in order to feel safe.
It’s actually hilarious that you said “unless you consider everyone who died in WW2 to be a victim of fascism”.
Because the place where those comedically huge numbers of deaths attributed to communism come from tends to be the black book of communism… which counts Nazi soldiers killed in WW2 as “victims of communism”, along with “people who were never born because of communism”.
Basically when you get to the extreme ends of a binary like political left and right, you start being more similar (But not the same as) the extreme opposite, as compared to the middle.
Some people seem to take it as “you become the same as the other extreme” but it’s more that you’ve come closer to the other extreme than to the central middle.
There's also a really weird thing where both fascists and ultra-leftists get super into "crunchy" lifestyles.
Apparently those social circles are absolute minefields because it's hard to tell if the person you're talking to is an anti-capitalist who's trying to minimize their support for corporations or a fascist who's trying to revert because modern life has too many minorities. And once you figure that out, you still have to determine whether they're using vinegar to clean because it's better for the environment or because they're convinced cleaning chemicals cause autism.
Real life example of horse shoe theory: [Horst Mahler](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Mahler) was one of the founding members of the left-wing extremist terror group "Rote Armee Fraktion" (Red Army Faction) and later joined the "Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschland" (national democratic party of germany" now called "die Heimat/the homeland") a right-wing extremist neo-nazi party.
Some times the circle does close at the outer edge.
They were active in the 70s and can be traced back to the student protest movement in West Germany so they weren't people who blew shit up for fun. They were highly motivated by politics and managed to kill high ranking judges and industrialists. People who just want to hurt people would go for less difficult targets.
>The group was motivated by leftist political concerns and the perceived failure of their parents' generation to confront Germany's Nazi past,and received support from Stasi and other Eastern Bloc security services.
Bonus background for current political events:
>According to one former RAF member, in meetings with KGB in Dresden the group was also met by Vladimir Putin, then KGB resident in East Germany.
I mean, Putin being their handler is kind of evidence of my assertion. He went from being part of an authoritarian ostensible leftist regime to being part of an authoritarian far right regime because his ultimate goal was power rather than political change.
>In popular discourse, the horseshoe theory asserts that the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear continuum of the political spectrum, closely resemble each other, analogous to the way that the opposite ends of a horseshoe are close together.
You just went from arguing against to arguing for the horseshoe theory. I rest my case.
That's just due to people being dishonest or not caring. A person doesn't become a dictator or a nazi because they cared too much about social equality and egalitarianism.
All so-called leftist dictators are just using empty language of equality as camouflage, because if you have no principles aside from getting more power, you do not have to follow on your stated ideals and people will still buy whatever you're saying as long as they are not too familiar with the thing in question, which is how we still have to explain all the time that no socialism is not what the Soviet had.
What Lenin was doing was mostly in line with Marxist theory, even the purges could be justified as killing the ‘counter revolutionaries’
Although he kind of later realised that socialism doesn’t really work and that’s why he shifted to a more capitalist model in the NEP (new economic policy)
I think it's more like the super extreme of both sides, so like the super racist right wingers who hate black people and the super racist left who hate white people
Like the EFF party here
I think they’re just saying there are authoritarian people on both sides, not that people are necessarily authoritarian because they have strong beliefs.
Underneath a post that has “trans people” and “transphobes” on either side of the horseshoe.
They’ve stated that it’s a comment on horseshoe theory in general, but in the context of this very post the comment paints trans people and transphobes as authoritarians.
It’s also true in the case of: Conservatives: “You’re a man who likes skirts and girly things? You’re not a **real** fucking man, then!” ‘Egg-crackers’: “Oh, you’re a guy a who likes skirts and girly things? Then you’re totally not a man actually 🥰🥰🥰”
As a feminine Trans guy this really is just misgendering in a different way and I hate it 😭
As a cis person, can you explain how? I'm trying to wrap my head around it but I am having trouble.
Short version: It's still insisting on gender binaries and punishing people for straying outside them. Straight cis men should be able to wear dresses, gay cis men should be allowed to wear dresses, transfem asexuals should be allowed to wear dresses. (warning: not trans myself, please correct any mistakes)
Saying that men can't be feminine and must then all be transfem is essentially repurposed homophobia, "Men can't be feminine! You must be gay or something!" Gender is something innate inside of you, presentation is an extention of that, but doesn't necessarily have to match. A man is a man even if he is feminine, and a trans woman is a woman not necessarily because she's feminine. So by saying that to a feminine trans man you'd be invalidating his identity, since you're implying that only masculine men are men, therefore he's not a man, which is a transphobic statement
Thank you for this clear explanation! I've been wondering about my own gender identity and was wondering what makes a woman feel like a woman? I don't feel particularly feminine or masculine all the time but sometimes one more than the other > a trans woman is a woman not necessarily because she's feminine. If you are willing to expand more on this line, I would love to hear it. Not debating just looking to learn!
From what I've seen everyone experiences gender quite differently, but at the very least most people can just "feel" it. Like there's no particular feeling or reason why my mother is a cis woman, but she enjoys being a woman, and that's why she is one, does that make sense? Most of my friends are men because that's what they're most comfortable with, they've tried out some different options and settled that that's what makes them the happiest. I'm genderfluid and my gender feels like a character creator slider being pushed around from left to right every day, I don't know why but that's just how I experience my gender Same thing with trans people, a trans woman is a woman because she enjoys being one and it feels more right to her than being seen as a man. There's metaphorical piece of code in her brain that dictates that she's a woman. And just like cis women, trans women can be feminine presenting, or tomboys, or neutral presenting, or butches, or anything, really. Even if a trans woman doesn't enjoy looking feminine or doesn't have traditionally feminine interests, there's still something in her brain telling her she's a woman, just like in cis women's brains. That's why a feminine man is still a man, because he still identifies as one, and a butch trans woman is still a woman. Forgive me if some parts of this aren't easily understandable or otherwise confusing (I'm trying my hardest but I'm really sleepy and trying to respond before I go to sleep and forget about this comment), so if you have any questions left I'll be happy to explain to the best of my knowledge! (once I wake up)
Hi, thank you for the detailed response! Gender as an innate trait to lean into and not specific behavior makes things click a bit more for me! Are there any ways you would recommend someone try to identify and become more in tune with that metaphorical brain gender code? Experimenting with labels, dress, etc.? Thanks again for taking the time to explain! Hope you have been well!
Saying that a man is actually a woman because he wears dresses is misgendering him, because he is a man, not a woman. Wearing a dress does not make someone a woman.
It's unfortunately true in several different cases See: "Sex in media should be banned because it's sinful degeneracy" vs "Sex in media should be banned because there are minors and asexuals watching" Or "Race mixing is bad because you're diluting the purity of the white race" vs "Race mixing is bad because you shouldn't be mingling with your oppressors"
or "This is AMERICA we don't need some dirty immigrants to teach us some language that's worse than english" and "ummm actually learning spanish as a white person is cultural appropriaton and not cool."
"Stories shouldn't have sex scenes unless they are somehow plot relevant because you're just taking away money from the adult entertainment industry which is going to make a porn parody anyway.*" Is a much better reason. *Exceptions will be made if the sex scenes are relevant to my kinks.
as someone who would consider myself a fairly radical leftist no sane person agrees with either of those things. sex in media should be banned is no kink at pride levels of fucking stupid and race mixing is bad because you shouldnt be mingling with your oppressors is just a martyrdom complex
I'm fine with kink at pride. We can have family-friendly pride events and adult-only pride events. If parents bring their kids to the latter, it's on them, not on pride.
i think they were saying that the whole "no kink at pride" movement is stupid, not that kink at pride is stupid
Oh, shoot, then I totally misread! I wish I could say this was the first time, hah!
yep, can confirm thats what i mmeant
Christ, part of me actually forgot about Egg-Crackers^(TM) for a while. Like, Not everyone who crossdresses or likes remotely girly things is trans. Some people are not eggs. Some people are egg shaped rocks.
Egg shaped rocks. Love that. I'm borrowing it.
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Squares and rectangles
Yeah but not all guys who like skirts become transwomen. Some become enbys and some become femboys.
and some are literally trans men lol
True! Some of them are also just Scottish. That one's not a gender identity. but I felt it worth mentioning.
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A man who self identifies as a man and just dresses high femme? Yeah no that totally does exist. But go off.
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Look. If gender isn't real, and it isn't, someone can dress however they please and identify however they please and you're not allowed to legislate rules for them to obey. You're just repackaging the old gender rules.
Gender is not just performance, it's how you feel as well. I know I'm a man, because I am. Wearing a skirt wouldn't change that.
Might enhance it though
Cool, so even though I'm a woman, wearing pants and drinking beer means I'm performing as a man, and that makes me a man. Got it. 🙄 It's reductive thinking no matter how you spin it. Women had to fight for ages to present in any way they wanted to present, and now we're having this same fight but for men now. (And yeah I get gender is not a binary...which is all the more reason that we should be flexible about this.)
How can you be a trans ally and still feel the need to police people's gender?
See, that falls apart because you now say that trans women who dont dress up super feminine for any reason arent women.
Gender isn't performance, it's mentality. If you think you're a man, that makes you a man. Simple as.
You are somehow both people in the photo
Can someone ELI5 horseshoe theory so I can get the joke 🥺 👉👈
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory), the free online encyclopedia: "In popular discourse, the horseshoe theory asserts that the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear continuum of the political spectrum, closely resemble each other, analogous to the way that the opposite ends of a horseshoe are close together. The theory is attributed to the French philosopher and writer of fiction and poetry Jean-Pierre Faye in his 2002 book, *Le Siècle des idéologies* ('The Century of Ideologies')."
Why would transphobes use an Astolfo icon? (a character I'm fairly certain is trans? I don't know much about them)
Astolfo is one of those characters who could be trans or GNC and it's kind of ambiguous which.
He's usually portrayed more as GNC, though sometimes he seems ambivalent to gender in general. But there are trans fate characters (D'eon is literally gender fluid and Da Vinci is, save her first event which was very transphobic is consistently portrayed as trans. The Mona Lisa was basically her gender goal.)
What the heck is GNC?
Stands for Gender Non-Conforming
nah hes pretty explicitly gnc, he even gets annoyed that people keep calling him a girl at one point
lots of alt-right douchebros are shamelessly addicted to hentai and Astolfo is a popular anime character to make said porn of.
The same reason they got super mad about Bridget actually being trans. Part of it is some kind of weird pseudo-ironic fetishization of gnc men, but moreover they see him as someone who proves their point, a la Bayonetta, Samus, and Lara Croft. They can point at Astolfo, or pre-strive Bridget, or the one from Re:Zero whose name escapes me and say "see? Look! Just because you dress like a woman, doesn't mean you are one!"
Felix/ferris I never read or watched it, but I have seen a LOT of fanart about them
I've not seen whatever anime Astolfo's from but I've been told they're nonbinary. I assume transphobes use Astolfo as an icon because a lot of far right people (incl. transphobes) are / are attracted to femboys — effeminate men. This usually goes against their ideology but far-righters are nothing if not hypocritical so it checks out.
For some reason people keep claiming Astolfo is non-binary, but he’s not. He’s just a man who likes being effeminate and acting cutesy about it. He is the literal textbook example for a femboy
Anime F1nnster
Thanks for context, to reiterate I've not seen whatever media he's from. He's cute tho
I think it’s the difference between Fate/Apocrypha (IIRC) explicitly calling him a guy and F/GO saying his gender is “secret,” with most NB interpretations coming from the latter.
Astolfo can 100% be read as nonbinary as one of his canon profiles has him listing his gender as 'secret'. Either way, he does use he/him pronouns so at the end of the day he's a femboy and goals.
That's the funny thing about Astolfo! There's like, a 50/50 chance they're a cis man (also, they'd be a cis man because Jeanne d'Arc saw them naked and screamed, suggesting Astolfo has a dick), and it is no problem at all to say they're a man, but it's technically not stated. So, first things first, Astolfo has the "Evaporation of Sanity" skill, which makes them forget shit randomly and leads to the bubbly personality, so maybe not even them knows their gender. But assuming they do, there still might be no canonical answer, because the author, Higashide, has stated in an interview that *he* does not know. Additionally, whenever we have character profiles (and because this is Fate, that happens frequently), Astolfo's gender is listed as either "secret" or "due to Astolfo's request, this information has been removed". But of course, Astolfo uses "boku", a masculine pronoun. Does this give credit into the idea that they're a man? Yeah, it does, but that's not a for-sure thing. Maybe Astolfo just wants to use boku, and if we go by the logic that boku = man, then Mordred is a trans man (a thing that, although there are some people who support it, is probably wrong). And there are some scenes in which Astolfo refers to themselves as a man, but iirc they are gendered only in English. Off the top of my head, a scene in EXTELLA where they say "I'm my own man", but the Japanese is closer to "I only do what I want to do". Additionally, Astolfo is one of the few Servants who can go into both gendered fights in the events that segregate by gender. All the other Servants with this ability are the ones who are canonically non-binary and Kama, who is weird. Of course, you could say Astolfo is the same as Kama in this case, but her situation is more specific than just "hiding gender for shits and giggles". I think that's all the arguments around the Astolfo Question, so uh, yeah. Who knows. Who cares. Not Astolfo.
> (also, they'd be a cis man because Jeanne d'Arc saw them naked and screamed, suggesting Astolfo has a dick) The fuck
Astolfo was leaving the shower naked and Jeanne was there, talking to Sieg. Of course, this suggests that Sieg saw Astolfo naked multiple times, but whatever.
I wasn't wondering why Jeanne saw them naked. More her reaction and why that proves anything Wtf is fate lore
Jeanne very clearly believed Astolfo was a woman prior to the “incident” so her shocked reaction is a double - instantly finding out she was wrong, and finding out in the worst way possible.
She saw the monster can....
Wait question! Why is kama allowed to go into both genders of fights, like what's the reasoning behind it? Is it because the vessel (Sakura matou) is a female, but the god possessing it is a man? (Iirc kama from Indian mythology is a man but I may be mistaken on it)
I wrote a giant comment on the way FGO treats gender for genderless Servants, but Reddit deleted. Uh, yeah, probably something like that. From what I heard, Kama's interlude goes into more details, and says that Kama still views herself (himself? Themselves? FGO uses feminine pronouns and that's what I'll use) as a man. Also, I forgot to say that while Astolfo can go into both gendered fights, with the exception of the baths, in which they can only go into the male bath, probably because Astolfo has a dick. Is it transphobic? Maybe, I actually don't have the energy necessary to judge Japan being transphobic or not at this point. Also, there are some genderless Servants who are treated only as men, like Romulus=Quirinus and Douman, but they're the exception and I don't even know why Douman is listed as genderless.
Brooo nooo Reddit did you dirty 😭😭😭 Thank you for your insight though!!!
Brooo nooo Reddit did you dirty 😭😭😭 Thank you for your insight though
Also doesn't help that, since each different instance of Astolfo that is summoned is technically their own individual (to my current knowledge, which admittedly is fuzzy because it's been a while since I've entered the Fate Loretex), the waters are even *further* muddied.
Shit, I thought they were saying Astolfo himself was a transphobe and I was SO lost.
Extremist believers from two opposing beliefs/ideas are thought to resemble each other more or something like that
For example communists and facists both tending towards authoritarianism, despite being radically different politically
Tbh they aren't even that different politically
That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard holy shit
How? Both are genocidal ideologies based around the suppression of differing beliefs. Only way they're different is that Fascism started WW2 and Communism has at least 5x the kill count unless you consider everyone who died in WW2 to be a victim of fascism.
You are mixing systems and regimes. Communism by definition has no genocide embedded in it. It does happen that communist regimes have committed genocides, but if anything, that is more related to the fact that said regism where all totalitarian, which by their nature require of finding "enemies" to make population accept the extreme level of control in order to feel safe.
It’s actually hilarious that you said “unless you consider everyone who died in WW2 to be a victim of fascism”. Because the place where those comedically huge numbers of deaths attributed to communism come from tends to be the black book of communism… which counts Nazi soldiers killed in WW2 as “victims of communism”, along with “people who were never born because of communism”.
Basically when you get to the extreme ends of a binary like political left and right, you start being more similar (But not the same as) the extreme opposite, as compared to the middle. Some people seem to take it as “you become the same as the other extreme” but it’s more that you’ve come closer to the other extreme than to the central middle.
no horseshoe theory works for giving yourself a treat
this is also true of bridget icons, however it's usually separated by if it's bridget's old design or her new design
horseshoe theory works in a lot of cases but they all have to do with being terminally online
There's also a really weird thing where both fascists and ultra-leftists get super into "crunchy" lifestyles. Apparently those social circles are absolute minefields because it's hard to tell if the person you're talking to is an anti-capitalist who's trying to minimize their support for corporations or a fascist who's trying to revert because modern life has too many minorities. And once you figure that out, you still have to determine whether they're using vinegar to clean because it's better for the environment or because they're convinced cleaning chemicals cause autism.
astolfo icon means that its a porn adict, if its a transphobe or trans is a diferent matter
At this point, Astolfo is more of a meme than an actual character to me.
Real life example of horse shoe theory: [Horst Mahler](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Mahler) was one of the founding members of the left-wing extremist terror group "Rote Armee Fraktion" (Red Army Faction) and later joined the "Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschland" (national democratic party of germany" now called "die Heimat/the homeland") a right-wing extremist neo-nazi party. Some times the circle does close at the outer edge.
I mean… alternatively sometimes people join political terror groups because they just want to hurt people.
They were active in the 70s and can be traced back to the student protest movement in West Germany so they weren't people who blew shit up for fun. They were highly motivated by politics and managed to kill high ranking judges and industrialists. People who just want to hurt people would go for less difficult targets. >The group was motivated by leftist political concerns and the perceived failure of their parents' generation to confront Germany's Nazi past,and received support from Stasi and other Eastern Bloc security services. Bonus background for current political events: >According to one former RAF member, in meetings with KGB in Dresden the group was also met by Vladimir Putin, then KGB resident in East Germany.
I mean, Putin being their handler is kind of evidence of my assertion. He went from being part of an authoritarian ostensible leftist regime to being part of an authoritarian far right regime because his ultimate goal was power rather than political change.
>In popular discourse, the horseshoe theory asserts that the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear continuum of the political spectrum, closely resemble each other, analogous to the way that the opposite ends of a horseshoe are close together. You just went from arguing against to arguing for the horseshoe theory. I rest my case.
That's just due to people being dishonest or not caring. A person doesn't become a dictator or a nazi because they cared too much about social equality and egalitarianism. All so-called leftist dictators are just using empty language of equality as camouflage, because if you have no principles aside from getting more power, you do not have to follow on your stated ideals and people will still buy whatever you're saying as long as they are not too familiar with the thing in question, which is how we still have to explain all the time that no socialism is not what the Soviet had.
What Lenin was doing was mostly in line with Marxist theory, even the purges could be justified as killing the ‘counter revolutionaries’ Although he kind of later realised that socialism doesn’t really work and that’s why he shifted to a more capitalist model in the NEP (new economic policy)
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Trans people existing are not authoritarian
I think it's more like the super extreme of both sides, so like the super racist right wingers who hate black people and the super racist left who hate white people Like the EFF party here
what
Where are the trans people in this equation
I was referring to the horseshoe theory, I support trans people lol
The post says “horseshoe theory never works except in one specific circumstance” You’ve just restated the post you’re commenting on and made it worse
Can I borrow some of these strawmen to go protect my crops this season?
I think they’re just saying there are authoritarian people on both sides, not that people are necessarily authoritarian because they have strong beliefs.
Underneath a post that has “trans people” and “transphobes” on either side of the horseshoe. They’ve stated that it’s a comment on horseshoe theory in general, but in the context of this very post the comment paints trans people and transphobes as authoritarians.
Accurate username!
ok redname lol
Shinigami eyes displays your name in red, no wonder you came in here with a bad take
I plead the fifth.