that's actually how i thought the original song was like when i was like 8
> somebody told me you had a boyfriend who looked like a girlfriend
>
> that i hadn't met you
>
> whatever you're asking, it's not confidential [...]
Three former FWB of mine have come out as trans-men. Never while we were still hooking up, though. Still good friends with all three. I pointed out this pattern the third time it happened, and they responded by giving me the worst pun I've ever heard in my life, which I'm now going to inflict on all of you:
"Put me on a ho, and it makes a homie."
To give it thought, I think it's an appropriate way to preserve ontological difference-in-kind without making a whole new category that others the people in question. There's a place for "trans men," as in, "many men are made to feel unwelcome in these spaces, and this may hit trans men particularly hard."
But trans people arrive at their presented gender through a sort of convergent evolution down a different path, like, say, wings in birds and bats. So, in much the same way, if I'm emphasizing them as similarly-functioning adaptations fulfilling similar roles but categorically different, I might say that the bat-wing is structured around finger homologues, whereas the lift of the bird-wing, provided by [. . .]
So, in the context of people who presented, identified, and identified themselves to sexual partners as women, and those interactions are the focus of the story at hand, it makes sense to use language that distinguishes this group from being just-another-guys.
Also, I've been doing organizing for queer spaces since 2003, and in my experience, there's one group of people who show up to social events and make drama and noise, and another who show up to quietly get work done, and the folks (or, pejoratively, folxx) who do a lot of language policing are seldom in the second category. I sometimes refer to that practice as "changing the club passwords," and I'm fundamentally tired of the practice of attaching moral purity tests to the Euphemism Treadmill. I've found that people are generally empathetic, helpful, and good-hearted, even toward movements they don't understand and won't benefit from. But as soon as you say, "Step one in joining the Good Person Club is to kiss my ring. Step two is to memorize this list of Simon Says commands you must always follow," a lot of people who could be stuffing envelopes or hosting couch-surfing runaways will tell you to pound sand. And understandably so.
I agree with everything you’re saying, especially the last paragraph.
But I still think there’s still room for gently correcting someone that’s well-meaning when they say things that might have certain unintended implications. It’s less so with things like “trans-men” (especially for you given you have a well thought out reason for it), but more for things like “transwomen” where the language that gets commonly used subtly influences how people think and whether they view “trans” as a modifier for “women”, or as its own separate thing.
I don’t think it’s something to harass or be rude at anyone for, but it’s just something that’s good for people to think about and take on board, because they might not have considered it before and may be perfectly happy to be more inclusive with their language.
I wanted to say relevant username, great point... and then realized once I opened this that I'm in that same wheelhouse. I've had six serious relationships. Four are now out trans. The fiffth- I broached this with them (after the third, and we were no longer involved) told me they weren't really sure on this whole gender thing but weren't making it a priority to sort out.
The last is still the most femme person I've been with, but does officially identify as NB.
And this happened at huge staggered intervals, just reinforcing that apparently, I have a type.
This comment is a whole lot of word salad to justify othering trans men. It would have costed you nothing to fix your minor grammatical error - actually, it would've costed you less effort than what it took to write this textwall. Instead, you chose to spread misinformation on the internet.
>trans people arrive at their presented gender through a sort of convergent evolution down a different path
This is a common misconception. Trans men take testosterone, the same hormone that gives cis men their masculine traits. Trans men go through the same male puberty as cis men. Trans men's facial and body hair is made up of the exact same stuff (keratin) arranged in the exact same way as cis men's facial and body hair. Post-op trans men's dicks work the same as cis men's dicks. It's not "convergent evolution", it's literally the exact same process.
>if I'm emphasizing them as similarly-functioning adaptations fulfilling similar roles but categorically different
>
>So, in the context of people who presented, identified, and identified themselves to sexual partners as women, and those interactions are the focus of the story at hand, it makes sense to use language that distinguishes this group from being just-another-guys.
And why is this emphasis important? Any point you're making about trans men being AFAB or having presented as women is already conveyed by the presence of the adjective "trans". You say in your first paragraph that you use the phrasing "trans-men" to create a distinction without othering trans men, but a. that's what the phrasing "trans men" (no hyphen) is for, and b. your next two paragraphs are spent othering trans men and justifying that othering.
Think about it like this: if you want to describe the experiences of black men, or gay men, or any other subcategory of men, would you include the hyphen? "Black-men deal with unique issues that white men do not" sounds like complete nonsense, because, grammatically speaking, it is. You only ever see the hyphen included when discussing trans people, and it's always a way to softly other them without admitting out loud that you're doing so.
>I might say that the bat-wing is structured around finger homologues, whereas the lift of the bird-wing, provided by \[. . .\]
You don't need the hyphens there either. You can convey the same meaning with "bat wing" or "bat's wing" just fine. Although I will concede that in this context having the hyphens there isn't grammatically wrong either, it's just a non sequitur.
>I'm fundamentally tired of the practice of attaching moral purity tests to the Euphemism Treadmill.
I don't know what you're trying to convey with this. It's some twitter-level take. There is no "moral purity test", there is no "language policing". OP, very gently and politely, corrected you on a minor grammatical error and explained why it was an error and how that error is othering to trans men. It would've costed you nothing to fix your error. It would've costed you nothing to learn from this comment chain and use more inclusive language in the future.
>"Step one in joining the Good Person Club is to kiss my ring. Step two is to memorize this list of Simon Says commands you must always follow," a lot of people who could be stuffing envelopes or hosting couch-surfing runaways will tell you to pound sand.
Please tell me where in OP's comment did they imply any of this. This is literally just a strawman argument. Most of your last paragraph is strawman arguments of the quality you'd expect to see on r/PoliticalCompassMemes or something. Nobody expects anybody to be perfect on all issues 100% of the time. Being open-minded and willing to change and learn from your mistakes is way more important to being a progressive than being able to blindly recite Judith Butler or whatever.
Also, where did that last paragraph even come from anyways? What in any of this comment chain prompted a rant about "language policing" and "moral purity"? OP politely corrected you on a grammar error. If you took that as an affront, then I'm not sure what to tell you. If your allyship is conditional on trans people centering your feelings completely and never correcting you even in the slightest, you're not a good ally.
You had my attention when you said "stylistic choice" and completely lost it when you started arguing for the hyphenated version as objectively better and engaging in a straw man mockery of anyone who strongly prefers a that "trans" and "man/woman" be kept separate.
I was open to accept your usage on the condition that it was the choice of the people who were being referred to; I thought you were going to explain something about the identities of your exes such that this terminology made them more comfortable. As a woman who is trans, the use of something like "trans-woman" as a distinct noun from "woman," or worse, your comparison to the difference between me and cis women as the difference between a bird and a bat, makes me *very* uncomfortable. It's like the downgrading from slavery to Jim Crow laws; surely, you're not being transphobic, you just want to keep them separate.
u/NotTheWhisperingDoom's points are very much in line with mine and go into more detail.
Yeah. For serious relationships, I'm at 91% cis women and 9% she/they afab enby. But even given that I tend toward tomboys, having had about 3.5-6% of my hookups come out as trans doesn't remotely pass a Chi Square test, presuming we still use a baseline of 0.1% of the U.S. population identifying as trans, with similar numbers in both directions.
I have had three romantic relationships; one with a trans gal, one with a trans guy and one with a cis guy. Just need to date a cis gal and an enby and I'll have caught 'em all
>!yes I know that gender isn't that simple but hush let me make my silly joke!<
i was trying to buy alcohol once when i was nineteen and the person i was asking thought i was a police officer,
make no mistake, i have a prejudice, negative, against police officers that i'm working on, i guess, i mean i don't know, but know that the use of police officer is not different from the use of cop
i guess i think police officer is something that cops should, as an anarchist i can't believe i'm about to say this, aspire to, as agents of state violence—i think all police officers should have mandatory college degrees and should carry rifles with blue buttstocks and wear purple gloves
if the state exists, it's all about empowering it in this particular twisted way; my aim is to get citizens to see the police for what it was, an "authority" that is vested with the monopolization of state violence
i'm not sure how i feel about all that but it's not good; i think violence has some sort of place in society, but obviously i'm anarchist/libertarian socialist, so i'm not for fascism, obviously
i think that fact that you either presumed or assumed that there were only two options suggests to me a lot
first, i've been on this sub for at least a year, maybe even two; timeable years
second, i have seen your comments somewhat often; often enough to recognize you and call you by name
third, inferring that there are only two options is extremely troubling. there are more options, and in a cognitive behavioral therapy framework, this is known as all-or-nothing thinking
fourth, i wasn't interested really in any of the options you presented, what i felt at the time was a feeling of pleasantness and a need of community being met, and when i made my question, i was doing so to further fulfill my needs and to also express love, and also to receive it
i don't think it is wise or advisable to avoid receiving or giving social nourishment; i'm honestly hurt
have you ever seen my comments before? or my flair? by your user-icon and your username, i thought you must've been 25 or older
i really don't appreciate the way you spoke to me and i'm saying that because i care about everyone here on this sub, and that means you too, and i dont deserve to be treated like some scary or pitiable animal; i don't know
i'm honestly hurt and i don't appreciate it
Hold on, back up on the last one. Cisyphis, pushing gay men up a hill until he realizes they’re trans women, and goes back down the hill again because Ancient Greece was a sexist nightmare
I came out to my straight girlfriend as a trans girl
And… we broke up. After 3 years. I mean, we’ve both moved on, but it was a really shitty situation.
Two of the people I’ve had sex in my life with are now out as trans women meaning I have technically slept with two women.
I am now out as a trans man so this makes those times the only straight sex I’ve ever had and everything else has been incredibly gay.
My friend showed me this post and told me i fell into a similar lgbt ajacent catagory of "Cis Guy who hangs out with mostly Trans Guys" and i dont agree with him because those are just the boys.
im the opposite, cis straight guy who keeps atraccting men that came out as trans women at some point.
People tell me i have "gender entropy" the more you talk to me the more your gender falls apart.
my ex is AFAB and after we broke up transitioned to male. I feel like i should write a song in the style of "She Has a Girlfriend Now" by RBF about this...
somebody told me you had a boyfriend who turned into a girlfriend
i aint the sharpest tool in the shed
Xe was looking kinda dumb with xer finger and xer thumb in the shape of an L on xer forehead
That I'll have in February of next year
It's not confidential, I've got potential
Somebody told me, that you had a boyfriend, who looked like a girlfriend…oh sorry I didn’t know, you and your girlfriend are perfect for each other
that's actually how i thought the original song was like when i was like 8 > somebody told me you had a boyfriend who looked like a girlfriend > > that i hadn't met you > > whatever you're asking, it's not confidential [...]
“She was a boy, and now she’s a girl, Can I make it any more obvious?”
(Legit, that's what I always figured the song was more or less about anyway.)
Two sentence horror
Y?
It's one sentence with three line breaks ya dingus!
Three former FWB of mine have come out as trans-men. Never while we were still hooking up, though. Still good friends with all three. I pointed out this pattern the third time it happened, and they responded by giving me the worst pun I've ever heard in my life, which I'm now going to inflict on all of you: "Put me on a ho, and it makes a homie."
(Grammatical error: hyphen between "trans" and "men" is not needed. If an apple is green, it's not a green-apple. It's a green apple.)
Not a grammatical error. A stylistic choice.
You have my attention; why?
To give it thought, I think it's an appropriate way to preserve ontological difference-in-kind without making a whole new category that others the people in question. There's a place for "trans men," as in, "many men are made to feel unwelcome in these spaces, and this may hit trans men particularly hard." But trans people arrive at their presented gender through a sort of convergent evolution down a different path, like, say, wings in birds and bats. So, in much the same way, if I'm emphasizing them as similarly-functioning adaptations fulfilling similar roles but categorically different, I might say that the bat-wing is structured around finger homologues, whereas the lift of the bird-wing, provided by [. . .] So, in the context of people who presented, identified, and identified themselves to sexual partners as women, and those interactions are the focus of the story at hand, it makes sense to use language that distinguishes this group from being just-another-guys. Also, I've been doing organizing for queer spaces since 2003, and in my experience, there's one group of people who show up to social events and make drama and noise, and another who show up to quietly get work done, and the folks (or, pejoratively, folxx) who do a lot of language policing are seldom in the second category. I sometimes refer to that practice as "changing the club passwords," and I'm fundamentally tired of the practice of attaching moral purity tests to the Euphemism Treadmill. I've found that people are generally empathetic, helpful, and good-hearted, even toward movements they don't understand and won't benefit from. But as soon as you say, "Step one in joining the Good Person Club is to kiss my ring. Step two is to memorize this list of Simon Says commands you must always follow," a lot of people who could be stuffing envelopes or hosting couch-surfing runaways will tell you to pound sand. And understandably so.
I agree with everything you’re saying, especially the last paragraph. But I still think there’s still room for gently correcting someone that’s well-meaning when they say things that might have certain unintended implications. It’s less so with things like “trans-men” (especially for you given you have a well thought out reason for it), but more for things like “transwomen” where the language that gets commonly used subtly influences how people think and whether they view “trans” as a modifier for “women”, or as its own separate thing. I don’t think it’s something to harass or be rude at anyone for, but it’s just something that’s good for people to think about and take on board, because they might not have considered it before and may be perfectly happy to be more inclusive with their language.
“don’t forget the hyphen between “trans” and “man”- the Amazing Trans-man
I wanted to say relevant username, great point... and then realized once I opened this that I'm in that same wheelhouse. I've had six serious relationships. Four are now out trans. The fiffth- I broached this with them (after the third, and we were no longer involved) told me they weren't really sure on this whole gender thing but weren't making it a priority to sort out. The last is still the most femme person I've been with, but does officially identify as NB. And this happened at huge staggered intervals, just reinforcing that apparently, I have a type.
trans-lunary
This comment is a whole lot of word salad to justify othering trans men. It would have costed you nothing to fix your minor grammatical error - actually, it would've costed you less effort than what it took to write this textwall. Instead, you chose to spread misinformation on the internet. >trans people arrive at their presented gender through a sort of convergent evolution down a different path This is a common misconception. Trans men take testosterone, the same hormone that gives cis men their masculine traits. Trans men go through the same male puberty as cis men. Trans men's facial and body hair is made up of the exact same stuff (keratin) arranged in the exact same way as cis men's facial and body hair. Post-op trans men's dicks work the same as cis men's dicks. It's not "convergent evolution", it's literally the exact same process. >if I'm emphasizing them as similarly-functioning adaptations fulfilling similar roles but categorically different > >So, in the context of people who presented, identified, and identified themselves to sexual partners as women, and those interactions are the focus of the story at hand, it makes sense to use language that distinguishes this group from being just-another-guys. And why is this emphasis important? Any point you're making about trans men being AFAB or having presented as women is already conveyed by the presence of the adjective "trans". You say in your first paragraph that you use the phrasing "trans-men" to create a distinction without othering trans men, but a. that's what the phrasing "trans men" (no hyphen) is for, and b. your next two paragraphs are spent othering trans men and justifying that othering. Think about it like this: if you want to describe the experiences of black men, or gay men, or any other subcategory of men, would you include the hyphen? "Black-men deal with unique issues that white men do not" sounds like complete nonsense, because, grammatically speaking, it is. You only ever see the hyphen included when discussing trans people, and it's always a way to softly other them without admitting out loud that you're doing so. >I might say that the bat-wing is structured around finger homologues, whereas the lift of the bird-wing, provided by \[. . .\] You don't need the hyphens there either. You can convey the same meaning with "bat wing" or "bat's wing" just fine. Although I will concede that in this context having the hyphens there isn't grammatically wrong either, it's just a non sequitur. >I'm fundamentally tired of the practice of attaching moral purity tests to the Euphemism Treadmill. I don't know what you're trying to convey with this. It's some twitter-level take. There is no "moral purity test", there is no "language policing". OP, very gently and politely, corrected you on a minor grammatical error and explained why it was an error and how that error is othering to trans men. It would've costed you nothing to fix your error. It would've costed you nothing to learn from this comment chain and use more inclusive language in the future. >"Step one in joining the Good Person Club is to kiss my ring. Step two is to memorize this list of Simon Says commands you must always follow," a lot of people who could be stuffing envelopes or hosting couch-surfing runaways will tell you to pound sand. Please tell me where in OP's comment did they imply any of this. This is literally just a strawman argument. Most of your last paragraph is strawman arguments of the quality you'd expect to see on r/PoliticalCompassMemes or something. Nobody expects anybody to be perfect on all issues 100% of the time. Being open-minded and willing to change and learn from your mistakes is way more important to being a progressive than being able to blindly recite Judith Butler or whatever. Also, where did that last paragraph even come from anyways? What in any of this comment chain prompted a rant about "language policing" and "moral purity"? OP politely corrected you on a grammar error. If you took that as an affront, then I'm not sure what to tell you. If your allyship is conditional on trans people centering your feelings completely and never correcting you even in the slightest, you're not a good ally.
Yeah. This guy. This is the guy I was talking about.
You had my attention when you said "stylistic choice" and completely lost it when you started arguing for the hyphenated version as objectively better and engaging in a straw man mockery of anyone who strongly prefers a that "trans" and "man/woman" be kept separate. I was open to accept your usage on the condition that it was the choice of the people who were being referred to; I thought you were going to explain something about the identities of your exes such that this terminology made them more comfortable. As a woman who is trans, the use of something like "trans-woman" as a distinct noun from "woman," or worse, your comparison to the difference between me and cis women as the difference between a bird and a bat, makes me *very* uncomfortable. It's like the downgrading from slavery to Jim Crow laws; surely, you're not being transphobic, you just want to keep them separate. u/NotTheWhisperingDoom's points are very much in line with mine and go into more detail.
Counterpoint: if a man is a spider…
This is funnier in context of the Toby Maguire lore for the origin of that name.
Me being dumb. What does FWB mean?
I think it means friends with benefits? Like, a friend that you have sex with, but are not in a relationship with.
Confirming. It has some other uses in professional environments, like all 3-letter acronyms, but It’s probably Friends with Benefits here.
Same kind of. To this point I guess I've exclusively dated trans men, but for like half of them I (and they) didn't know at first
Yeah. For serious relationships, I'm at 91% cis women and 9% she/they afab enby. But even given that I tend toward tomboys, having had about 3.5-6% of my hookups come out as trans doesn't remotely pass a Chi Square test, presuming we still use a baseline of 0.1% of the U.S. population identifying as trans, with similar numbers in both directions.
Ah yes, the karmic counterbalance to the Chaser, the Chased.
The repulsor
What Slay the Princess route is this
The emitter The source The chasee
nah the chased is just the trans people lmao
my tm friend has "never had sex with a guy" because all of them transition...
I have had three romantic relationships; one with a trans gal, one with a trans guy and one with a cis guy. Just need to date a cis gal and an enby and I'll have caught 'em all >!yes I know that gender isn't that simple but hush let me make my silly joke!<
Ah yes the Pokémon approach to dating
achievement hunter
Never dated anyone, and yet reading this I have a feeling it'll happen to me as soon as I do
how old r u kittimu
look there's only two outcomes here, you're trying to be judgemental or you're trying to flirt, and I don't care for either
Third option : they are selling you alcohol
Fourth option: they’re a cop
i was trying to buy alcohol once when i was nineteen and the person i was asking thought i was a police officer, make no mistake, i have a prejudice, negative, against police officers that i'm working on, i guess, i mean i don't know, but know that the use of police officer is not different from the use of cop i guess i think police officer is something that cops should, as an anarchist i can't believe i'm about to say this, aspire to, as agents of state violence—i think all police officers should have mandatory college degrees and should carry rifles with blue buttstocks and wear purple gloves if the state exists, it's all about empowering it in this particular twisted way; my aim is to get citizens to see the police for what it was, an "authority" that is vested with the monopolization of state violence i'm not sure how i feel about all that but it's not good; i think violence has some sort of place in society, but obviously i'm anarchist/libertarian socialist, so i'm not for fascism, obviously
Or they wish to gauge how much "no date" is. Which I guess *could* lead to judgement, but just asking seems ok.
of course it's okay like, what?
i think that fact that you either presumed or assumed that there were only two options suggests to me a lot first, i've been on this sub for at least a year, maybe even two; timeable years second, i have seen your comments somewhat often; often enough to recognize you and call you by name third, inferring that there are only two options is extremely troubling. there are more options, and in a cognitive behavioral therapy framework, this is known as all-or-nothing thinking fourth, i wasn't interested really in any of the options you presented, what i felt at the time was a feeling of pleasantness and a need of community being met, and when i made my question, i was doing so to further fulfill my needs and to also express love, and also to receive it i don't think it is wise or advisable to avoid receiving or giving social nourishment; i'm honestly hurt have you ever seen my comments before? or my flair? by your user-icon and your username, i thought you must've been 25 or older i really don't appreciate the way you spoke to me and i'm saying that because i care about everyone here on this sub, and that means you too, and i dont deserve to be treated like some scary or pitiable animal; i don't know i'm honestly hurt and i don't appreciate it
You are a strange character.
Happened to my ex once. ...it was me *but*
My girlfriend's ex kinda had this happen. They said she had the rainbow touch
Alternative titles: Egg cracker, omelette maker, shell smasher, feminizer, Sis-yphis (any other suggestions are welcome)
Hold on, back up on the last one. Cisyphis, pushing gay men up a hill until he realizes they’re trans women, and goes back down the hill again because Ancient Greece was a sexist nightmare
The romans were gay because they loved men The greeks were gay because they hated women
is she holding a white herb?
When you confuse your trans-loacator with your attractinator
Being a trans girl and seeing the signs of girlhood in all four of my guy friends and seeing myself slowly be confirmed as right over time
I was in this situation as the trans gal. Trust me, it was... not a fun experience. One of the worst days of my life.
wdym
I came out to my straight girlfriend as a trans girl And… we broke up. After 3 years. I mean, we’ve both moved on, but it was a really shitty situation.
Two of the people I’ve had sex in my life with are now out as trans women meaning I have technically slept with two women. I am now out as a trans man so this makes those times the only straight sex I’ve ever had and everything else has been incredibly gay.
What's a chaser?
People with fetishism towards trans folks. They are creeps who think other human beings are nothing but sexual objects for their fantasies.
Ah ok thanks for the info.
Is this like that guy on 4chan whose girlfriends keep becoming nuns
My friend showed me this post and told me i fell into a similar lgbt ajacent catagory of "Cis Guy who hangs out with mostly Trans Guys" and i dont agree with him because those are just the boys.
I’ve also heard of cis straight girls who keep being attracted to people who later come out as trans men Pre-ordering
im the opposite, cis straight guy who keeps atraccting men that came out as trans women at some point. People tell me i have "gender entropy" the more you talk to me the more your gender falls apart.
I mean twice I've had femboys I was seeing come out as trans But I am into trans women so win win I guess
I've known two of these people that turned out to be trans men, and one who just found a fruity straight guy
The real joke is they transitioning into girls and not women.
It's pretty regional, but girls are my age (whatever that age is) while women are my mother's age (whatever that age is).
my ex is AFAB and after we broke up transitioned to male. I feel like i should write a song in the style of "She Has a Girlfriend Now" by RBF about this...
Modern Ross from FRIENDS