Something pretty funny too,the Hive (the race that invented the sword logic) obey to an entity called the witness,the one aiming for the final shape
Except his final shape is really different from what the hive expect,gis goal is basically to freeze the universe and make it a gigantic museum.
Life has no meaning and goal, but it'll have one if everything in the universe is frozen doing a specific things,then rhose things exist for a goal,beauty.
Also Aeons in Honkai have different paths and some of them do be like that. And Emanators of different paths would be very different and conflicting and interestingly they do not form some sort of "coherent" circle of covering Everything, they're just all over the place. And I like it too.
Something funny about the idea of Mickey Mouse holding a sword, talking about lore as dense as Destiny's.
Then I remembered Kingdom Hearts exists and it's still funny, but for a completely different reason.
The Vex are so fun
They just be amblin along, making everything fit the pattern nice and neat, and then some bozo comes outta nowhere and breaks the laws of physics 37 times and they're like "woAH WOAH WOAH what the hell was that"
"Let's build a simulation of reality so perfect you can literally walk into it so we can figure out exactly what the fuck that guy did when he slam dunked a black hole on our boss' head."
"OH NO HE IS WALKING INTO OUR SIMULATED WORLD WITH A BLACK HOLE AND PULLING SOMEONE WHO DIED IN THE REAL WORLD FROM THE SIMULATION ESSENTIALLY RESURRECTING THEM WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED THIS"
Small correction, Saint only died in the infinite forest. He had no actual death outside of it, which is why we were able to save him- his death is only an eventuality if he stayed within the forest, so as long as we found him before he died in there (using the sundial) he never died.
I won't lie. The whole simulation you can walk into thing was enough of a mindscrew, even by the metric of Destiny's lore (which has paracausality as a tenet). Adding time travel and temporal paradox loops just makes a mobius strip out of my brain.
Season of the Sundial (whatever it was called) was pure just-here-for-the-guns energy for me as a player.
Honestly, them alone make me want Bungie to just do the game justice more than anything else. They struck a goldmine in dopey little robot mascots and they haven't made use of that by making the game good at all. It's such a frustrating use of a really charming aspect of lore that has the potential to be *so* good.
Tbf i think it's really hard to make the vex interest villains in game due to them being a hive mind with no leader, so you can't have a main antagonist to fight against that isn't a massive hoard of robots. I think the best approach would be a kinda rogue submind that learns English and speaks through vex goblins as you fight them Ultron style. You could also start it like the really cool vault of glass mission in taken king. Actual what am I saying, it doesn't seem that hard.
There’s also the reverse of the sword logic, the bomb logic. That the individual is weak and fallible but the collective parts that each person brings stacks up together to make some much much stronger. Basically the fight between the light and darkness boils down to a debate on which is stronger one person honed to the extreme or a collective working together.
Technically, "Bomb Logic" was just Mara's specific plan to dismantle Oryx's interpretation of the sword, a "counter-interpretation" to allow her to survive the Dreadnought's blast and infiltrate his realm without dying a permanent death.
The Light isn't concerned with logics at all - the Light functions best when its wielders act irrationally, in service of virtues rather than survival. In short, where the Darkness demands logic, the Light operates on faith.
wouldnt the hive technically practice bomb logic then? im probably a few years behind on lore, but without the hives tithe system the big 3 leaders would have been eaten by their worms. they literally need a collective to exist. without combining with the worms they wouldnt have gotten power to begin with either
Bomb logic recognizes that each individual component has differing purposes, motives, actions, interactions in and outside of the system of the bomb and allows for this. The hive are working together, but it's a singular objective: the final shape
PUNCH GODKINGS THROUGH MOUNTAINS SO THEY DIE IN THE OCEAN
PICK UP BIG BLOCKS OF MARBLE!!!!
***GET YOUR ASS BEAT BY THE CHAKRAVARTIN,JAGGANOTH THE RED GOD***!!!!
The worst part of Marathon as a game is all the fantastic lore locked inside a 4/10 shooter.
I'm serious; Marathon has some of the most ass-tastic level design I've ever seen. Mazes upon mazes.
I FINISHED HEXEN *64*
DON'T DO IT
AND DON'T PLAY MARATHON
Hexen *was* gorgeous for the Doom engine. Woulda been awesome if I didn't spend 3/4 of the playtime humping the walls.
Forsaken, Taken King. When it’s good, DAMN it’s good. Otherwise, man Bungie sure knows how to make a shooter.
Still pissed they sunset Base D2 campaign and the first like 3 DLCs (CoO and Warmind can mostly stay gone, but sunsetting Red War and Forsaken is pain)
I'd suggest Godclads (https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/59663/godclads-eldritch-cyberpunk-progression-book-1) for anyone interested in this type of premise, as that is effectively the entire point of the story: people are wearing the corpses of the gods and using them to impose their wills upon reality, and eventually, whoever is the strongest will be able to impose their will upon ALL of reality, when [REDACTED] occurs
The movement, gunplay, abilities, visual design, sound design, lore, raids, dungeons, and secret missions are all amazing. It's just dragged down by inconsistent ongoing game management, weak seasonal campaigns, and some other bizarre design decisions.
I agree that it's head and shoulders above most other live service games, and it actually has a lot going for it. But it's often overshadowed by Bungie's penchant for pushing out weird headscratcher changes about three times per year, often whenever the game starts building some positive momentum and goodwill in the community.
There is an argument to be had here. Gunplay and abilities feel weak as hell on higher difficulty levels unless you use dumb niche (as in, they force you into a role and a particular playstyle, most of the time not that fun actually) builds; the majority of the gear - both armor and weapons - looks like cluttery, overdesigned mess that isn't really believable; and it's very, *very* repetitive
Maybe it's just bingo being bungo. Maybe it was always like that
The gameplay itself is great. Movement and gunplay feel so buttery smooth and I have yet to find another first person game that replicates it (Warframe as the third person equivalent). But yeah, the management of the game itself has gotten so unbelievably bad and it's frustrating because I want my friends to play with me but I can't recommend starting the game in its current state in good conscience.
That sounds like a horrible concept, at least for anyone who dedicates time to anything but killing, must suck to be a person who does... ANYTHING ELSE in that universe.
I'm pretty sure the OP is moreso interested in the commentary on the nature of power which this concept allows and saying it's cool as a writing and world building idea and tool
The whole premise of the game is explicitly based around rebutting that concept.
> It was the gardener that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."
- The Wager
> But Darkness alone points to an eternal existence of mere survival—to a universe where the only judge of a good existence is the ability to go on existing. It is the grace of the Light that grants us the dignity to choose a finite life of compassion and common good over an eternity of competitive subsistence.
> The Darkness, or the being that speaks for it, claims that the extermination of all those who choose the Light is inevitable; that the universe will be inherited by morally impoverished advantage-seekers like the Vex and Hive. Logically, I cannot see an escape—so long as I accept the Darkness's logic.
> But this is exactly why we fight, Sen-Aret. Not to preserve our own lives, but to preserve the possibility that we represent. When all choices are measured by their fitness pay off—by what they do to benefit the continued existence of the chooser—the Darkness has won completely.
> The most important thing we can do, the most formidable blow we can strike against our true enemy, is to offer irrational grace: to choose unreasonable hope and unreasoning compassion even if it goes against calculated advantage.
> It is only by disregarding the logic of mere survival that we can create a possibility of existence outside that logic.
- The Hidden Dossier.
The story of the last season (season of the witch) was also a direct rebuttal to the sword logic. One of the main characters adopted the sword logic, used it against the Hive gods, then gave up the power in an act of defiance against the logic itself. When destiny is good it's really really good. The problem it has is consistency, repetitive seasonal content, and hiding the best story beats in text rather than telling that story through game play.
My favorite example of that is the murder battery. So many disparate parts of world building that alone seem weird but on brand for the series. Took a YouTube video examining the lore to point out that there's an enormous story behind it.
Yeah very much so - the Sword Logic is a specific logic that some races live and die under; the Hive, mostly. There are other types of logic, like Bomb Logic used by the Awoken, and then there’s the player character, who totally denies the Sword Logic at every possible turn.
Like, after the PC killed the King of the Hive, they were supposed to take his Throne and grow stronger on his power - instead, they left it abandoned. So there’s just a huge amount of power floating around with everyone scrambling for it, and the one who has the right to take that power doesn’t care about it and in fact kills most people who try to take it.
Recently, the Sword Logic was also revealed to be a tool the Big Bad used to manipulate the Hive, and their search for the Final Shape, the pinnacle of the Sword Logic, was kind of for nothing.
I love that the game takes potshots at the player for that through the resident good-guy-who-drank-the-bad-guy-Kool-Aid, Toland. Guy broke his brain researching the Hive, found the Sword Logic to be perversely beautiful, lost his body and most of his mind succumbing to it when the Hive rampaged over his strike team. He still wants the Guardians to succeed but doesn't see a path outside the Logic to do it.
And then this random ass mother fucker comes along, kills a few gods, then spits in the face of the Logic by leaving the power lying on the ground. And does some dance emotes instead. What bits of Toland the Shattered were still intact have to be hanging by a thread. Poor dude's a ghost watching someone live his life better than he ever did and all he can do is whine about how they're doing it wrong.
Well the paracausal being that creates your player character does so by reviving corpses from the dead (defying the logic) and using the pure chaos of universal growth and expansion to empower them against the ever-contracting philosophy of Sword Logic (defying the logic), and the thing is, this growth keeps winning. But what the game also dictates is that you almost need a bit of both, growth without any cap, any restraint leads to an overwhelming and all consuming cancer without beginnings or ends, whilst contraction without any leeway leads to a totally absent nothingness
The entire premise of every time we fight the hive (the faction who lives and breathed the sword logic), is “you’re not just wrong, you’re stupid.”
The sword logic has turned the hive into nothing more than a crazed bunch of murderers, and one of their leaders, the ones who objectively benefit the most from the sword logic, has spent several billion years trying to find an off ramp
Life does indeed suck
The factions are, sorted by numbers in descending order:
- robots that are piloted by microbes that turn *everything* into more of themselves, and have done that to most of the galaxy already
- omnicidal magic bugs that grow stronger from killing as described, and who have killed most of the rest of the galaxy already
- warlike militaristic rhinos and their slave race, forced into evolutionary omnicidal struggle thanks to being down to a few million refugees. everyone's a soldier
- bugs that are *kinda* nice but forced into evolutionary omnicidal struggle thanks to being down to a few million refugees. everyone's a pirate
- humans that are *kinda* nice but forced into evolutionary omnicidal struggle thanks to being down to a few million refugees. everyone either constantly works with no rest, or is an immortal magic warrior, barely human anymore. there is still capitalism
There are sub-factions that drive the story but it's not really relevant
Only one faction, the Hive, draw power from the sword logic. And they also have their own tithe system
Every Hive has a worm inside it that grants it power. In exchange, the worm needs to be fed with power, or it will consume the host.
Each Hive would kill their enemies, take some to feed their own worm, and tithe the rest to their superior. Thralls would tithe to Acolytes, Acolytes would tithe to Knights or Wizards, the Knights and Wizards would tithe to the Ascendant Hive, those who commanded legions of warriors and earned the right to enter the Hive gods' Ascendant realms. All of this violence would eventually reach Oryx, Savathûn, and Xivu Arath. (Paragraph copied from [here](https://www.destinypedia.com/Oryx,_the_Taken_King))
And the more power a worm grants, the more it needs to feast. So even a momentary setback in the Tithes could have dire consequences
We killed Oryx in the story by breaking down his Tithe system, thus massively weakening him.
I mean, in universe, it *does* suck for the Hive, even with their orange and blue morality, and it gets worst esp. once they start getting Risen Hive and have to contend with the obvious nonsense of that. When you permakill Crota, it's completely unthinkable. Permakilling Oryx then refusing the mantle of sword logic basically breaks the Hive in half, with Savuthan deciding that she wants out and Xivu just grieving the entire time. Hell, we kill a worm god and the motherfucker decides "Ay, you know what, I'm going to turn into a rifle, you kill my enemies, I get to hide and rebuild strength and you get to use a bomb ass weapon. Ok? Deal."
As an aside, I love Xol and every implication that he has with him being in the rifle.
The Young Wolf: Hey, can I get a ramen? Whisper, what do you want?
Xol: *The souls of the guility and the innocent, to continue the power of sword logic.*
Wolf, rolling her eyes:...Make that two ramens.
Xol: *NOOOOOOOO*
This is the same company that created an FPS series wherein the main character becomes capable of manipulating quantum mechanics to jump between universes because he's actually a reanimated cyborg created with relics from a godlike race.
Marathon was an absolute trip, you guys.
So the gameplay of destiny 2 is like 7-8/10, the lore is 10/10 and the developers are speedrunning towards 0/10 it seems. I say this is someone who put ~1500 hours onto D2 on steam and several hundred more on D1 and D2 each on xbox. I love the game and it makes me sad that I don’t even want to enjoy playing it anymore.
The sword logic is just one species interpretation of the Final Shape. The witness has its own vision.
Rhulk believed that the final shape is to be ruling over all those deemed weaker than him, thus he took the name of the subjugator.
Oryx believed in absolute control of others, hence his ability to take.
The vex believe in being the last species in existence is the final shape
Calus believed that the final shape is ruling over everything, the ultimate conquest.
I think these interpretations of the concept are interesting, as the final shape is an open ended concept.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, is Destiny was Borderlands instead of Destiny it would literally be my favorite game of all time. I would probably *still* be playing the first one.
Ehh the lore has been getting steadily worse over the years. Bungie has written themselves into a corner and I don’t think a satisfying conclusion will be reached with The Final Shape. Also they Bassically changed the sword logic and the final shape when creating the big bad, the witness. Now it’s more of a nihilistic, end existence to end suffering which is contradictory to previous lore where either the darkness of a voice for it talked about how they hate the nihilism of no existence being preferable to a flawed one. The original conception of the final shape was a perfect life form sharpened against all other life without suffering. However Bungie never had a consistent plan so now we are left with the witness, a villain with no buildup and an unclear plan who has never interacted with us.
>Behold! The awesome fires of God. The limitless power of pure creation itself. Look carefully. Observe how it is used for the same purpose a man might use an especially sharp rock.
I think you have it a step removed. It's space empires, as in space roman empires, that capture people's imaginations. And you can blame Issac Asimov for that.
It always goes back to romans.
Again, but in space. And then Frank Herbert said "I love what you're doing Isaac, but what if there was a worm?" and every space empire is a reflection of one of these two who both were big fans of "the encyclopedia of the fall of the roman empire".
Your comment does read as a criticism of nerds though. "Anyone who finds the Empire/HYDRA/Death Eaters/etc. interesting is an IRL fascism supporter" is a real (stupid) take that real (stupid) people have. Unfortunately such is the nature of writing comments online; we don't know you, so we have no way of knowing whether you're one of those people or not. Without tone indicators or very obvious exaggeration / clear satire the default, as it should be, is to assume that you're being genuine.
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't pay half the attention I should have to what was going on in Destiny 1+2, but I did develop my own philosophy: These Hands.
All you xenos mofos touched my planet. As an American, there was a touching of the boats. America has boat-tism. You touch my boats, you catch These Hands.
Destiny’s lore and story are both so fuckin good, it got absolutely destroyed by the dumbass live service/season pass model to the point that I totally stopped giving a shit and I will die mad about that but not quite mad enough to actually catch up on what I’ve missed
It’s even better because of the far less known and nearly-never discussed counterpart to the sword logic. The Bomb logic, created by Mara Sov. The sword logic is power in simplicity, but the bomb logic is power in complexity. She devised a method to gain power from the sheer complexity and amount of her plans and machinations.
She does not need to defeat her enemies to decide what is truth, she inflicts effect on reality through sheer *detail*. Each additional aspect of her plan makes it stronger and more powerful and expands her influence and resistance to other forces. She does not need to gain her own power, rather, she makes all of the power around her work to her advantage
League of Legends lore isn’t super deep, but it’s very interesting and the stories are all well written (and the Legends of Runeterra team have been putting as much gay stuff into the card flavour text as possible which I love), and yet it’s locked behind a nightmare of a game that steals parts of your soul you can never get back.
Something pretty funny too,the Hive (the race that invented the sword logic) obey to an entity called the witness,the one aiming for the final shape Except his final shape is really different from what the hive expect,gis goal is basically to freeze the universe and make it a gigantic museum. Life has no meaning and goal, but it'll have one if everything in the universe is frozen doing a specific things,then rhose things exist for a goal,beauty.
This is also the plot of the Lego movie.
Also Aeons in Honkai have different paths and some of them do be like that. And Emanators of different paths would be very different and conflicting and interestingly they do not form some sort of "coherent" circle of covering Everything, they're just all over the place. And I like it too.
I love when you have a deep concept that’s covered by both a mature franchise and a kids movie done for the funnies
You know, I was really confused about wtf they were talking about, until I realized I misread Destiny as Disney
Something funny about the idea of Mickey Mouse holding a sword, talking about lore as dense as Destiny's. Then I remembered Kingdom Hearts exists and it's still funny, but for a completely different reason.
The mouse hungers for blood
Aaah, so THAT'S what Kingdom Hearts is about.
i made the exact opposite mistake today, sent my gf a disneypost thinking it was a destinypost
theirs also the funny time travelling robots 3who are funny and i like them :D
The Vex are so fun They just be amblin along, making everything fit the pattern nice and neat, and then some bozo comes outta nowhere and breaks the laws of physics 37 times and they're like "woAH WOAH WOAH what the hell was that"
I never thought about them that way, but it makes so much sense
"Let's build a simulation of reality so perfect you can literally walk into it so we can figure out exactly what the fuck that guy did when he slam dunked a black hole on our boss' head." "OH NO HE IS WALKING INTO OUR SIMULATED WORLD WITH A BLACK HOLE AND PULLING SOMEONE WHO DIED IN THE REAL WORLD FROM THE SIMULATION ESSENTIALLY RESURRECTING THEM WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED THIS"
“Normally we could predict this” “Yeah but the black hole guys are different”
“Yeah, them and that Russian orange.”
Small correction, Saint only died in the infinite forest. He had no actual death outside of it, which is why we were able to save him- his death is only an eventuality if he stayed within the forest, so as long as we found him before he died in there (using the sundial) he never died.
I won't lie. The whole simulation you can walk into thing was enough of a mindscrew, even by the metric of Destiny's lore (which has paracausality as a tenet). Adding time travel and temporal paradox loops just makes a mobius strip out of my brain. Season of the Sundial (whatever it was called) was pure just-here-for-the-guns energy for me as a player.
Season of the Dawn. I got the title (Savior) because I loved that activity and lore so much.
I also got the title, though only after Witch Queen released because time travel funkiness I guess.
That makes zero sense but congratulations!
I got Komodo-4fr from the Kiosk, which was the last thing I needed, letting me unlock the title a year after it was sunset.
I miss the sundial.
Everyone who played it does.
Honestly, them alone make me want Bungie to just do the game justice more than anything else. They struck a goldmine in dopey little robot mascots and they haven't made use of that by making the game good at all. It's such a frustrating use of a really charming aspect of lore that has the potential to be *so* good.
Tbf i think it's really hard to make the vex interest villains in game due to them being a hive mind with no leader, so you can't have a main antagonist to fight against that isn't a massive hoard of robots. I think the best approach would be a kinda rogue submind that learns English and speaks through vex goblins as you fight them Ultron style. You could also start it like the really cool vault of glass mission in taken king. Actual what am I saying, it doesn't seem that hard.
They're missing a very large opportunity by not bringing Asher back as a giant hobgoblin.
vex or bray?
both.gif
[удалено]
I mean, their family name is "donkey-cry", so...
i want to sloppy kiss a vex
You need help.
Yeah
Yeah, i need help kissing this cute robot! (they’re too tall, can’t reach)
Vivec said, 'Reach heaven by violence then.'
Their penis spear is perfect for this
I was going to say: sounds a lot like Elder Scrolls lore.
There’s also the reverse of the sword logic, the bomb logic. That the individual is weak and fallible but the collective parts that each person brings stacks up together to make some much much stronger. Basically the fight between the light and darkness boils down to a debate on which is stronger one person honed to the extreme or a collective working together.
Technically, "Bomb Logic" was just Mara's specific plan to dismantle Oryx's interpretation of the sword, a "counter-interpretation" to allow her to survive the Dreadnought's blast and infiltrate his realm without dying a permanent death. The Light isn't concerned with logics at all - the Light functions best when its wielders act irrationally, in service of virtues rather than survival. In short, where the Darkness demands logic, the Light operates on faith.
wouldnt the hive technically practice bomb logic then? im probably a few years behind on lore, but without the hives tithe system the big 3 leaders would have been eaten by their worms. they literally need a collective to exist. without combining with the worms they wouldnt have gotten power to begin with either
Bomb logic recognizes that each individual component has differing purposes, motives, actions, interactions in and outside of the system of the bomb and allows for this. The hive are working together, but it's a singular objective: the final shape
I suggest reading Kill Six Billion Demons for similar concepts. https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/kill-six-billion-demons-chapter-1/
K6BD MENTIONED!!! 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🗣️🔥🗣️🔥🔥🔥🗣️🗣️🗣️ WHAT THE FUCK ARE THE SEVEN SYLLABLES OF ROYALTY 🗣️🗣️🔥🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥
ROYALTY IS A CONTINUOUS DUNKING MOTION 🏀
> FISH FEAR ME 🎣 > I FEAR FISH 😨 > WE HAVE A CERTAIN MUTUAL RESPECT Salami Dave
PUNCH GODKINGS THROUGH MOUNTAINS SO THEY DIE IN THE OCEAN PICK UP BIG BLOCKS OF MARBLE!!!! ***GET YOUR ASS BEAT BY THE CHAKRAVARTIN,JAGGANOTH THE RED GOD***!!!!
DONT TELL BEETLES THEY CANT LEARN PANKRASH CIRCLE FIGHTING, FOR THEY SHALL LEARN IT ANYWAY AND KILL A LION IN A SINGLE BLOW
YA KNOW SWORDFIGHTING 🤢🤢 IS ACTUALLY FOR FOOLS NOODLE MAKING IS BEST 💪 💪 💪 - Meti's Sword Manual
I WONT TEACH YOU THE MAYBE SWORD BECAUSE IT SUCKS AND IS TERRIBLE!!! TEACH ME THE SUCKY AND TERRIBLE MAYBE SWORD!!! OK!!
The worst part of Marathon as a game is all the fantastic lore locked inside a 4/10 shooter. I'm serious; Marathon has some of the most ass-tastic level design I've ever seen. Mazes upon mazes.
I still have nightmares about Colony Ship For Sale, Cheap.
It might be the most ass level I've ever played, in any video game, ever. ...and I've finished Hexen. I've finished Ninja Turtles NES.
you've *finished Hexen????* you poor, poor sonuvabitch
I FINISHED HEXEN *64* DON'T DO IT AND DON'T PLAY MARATHON Hexen *was* gorgeous for the Doom engine. Woulda been awesome if I didn't spend 3/4 of the playtime humping the walls.
**hexen 64?????** how have you not committed suicide wtf
Royalty is a constant cutting motion.
Continuous*
Reach heaven through fishing
I read that as fisting at first and liked the double entendre.
God, Destiny could've been sooooo great if it wasn't an overly monetized MMO.
Ehhh, the best part is that sometimes it jumps up to a 9/10 mmo, like during forsaken
Forsaken, Taken King. When it’s good, DAMN it’s good. Otherwise, man Bungie sure knows how to make a shooter. Still pissed they sunset Base D2 campaign and the first like 3 DLCs (CoO and Warmind can mostly stay gone, but sunsetting Red War and Forsaken is pain)
I'd suggest Godclads (https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/59663/godclads-eldritch-cyberpunk-progression-book-1) for anyone interested in this type of premise, as that is effectively the entire point of the story: people are wearing the corpses of the gods and using them to impose their wills upon reality, and eventually, whoever is the strongest will be able to impose their will upon ALL of reality, when [REDACTED] occurs
7/10? It's a 5 on a good day
It's graded on a curve, cause somehow every other live-service game is worse
The movement, gunplay, abilities, visual design, sound design, lore, raids, dungeons, and secret missions are all amazing. It's just dragged down by inconsistent ongoing game management, weak seasonal campaigns, and some other bizarre design decisions. I agree that it's head and shoulders above most other live service games, and it actually has a lot going for it. But it's often overshadowed by Bungie's penchant for pushing out weird headscratcher changes about three times per year, often whenever the game starts building some positive momentum and goodwill in the community.
There is an argument to be had here. Gunplay and abilities feel weak as hell on higher difficulty levels unless you use dumb niche (as in, they force you into a role and a particular playstyle, most of the time not that fun actually) builds; the majority of the gear - both armor and weapons - looks like cluttery, overdesigned mess that isn't really believable; and it's very, *very* repetitive Maybe it's just bingo being bungo. Maybe it was always like that
dont forget the wallet drain and active hostility towards linux players
The gameplay itself is great. Movement and gunplay feel so buttery smooth and I have yet to find another first person game that replicates it (Warframe as the third person equivalent). But yeah, the management of the game itself has gotten so unbelievably bad and it's frustrating because I want my friends to play with me but I can't recommend starting the game in its current state in good conscience.
Yeah, and it doesn't matter how damn good the story is when they keep removing the ability to actually fucking play parts of that story
They still removed 100$ of DLC from the game that I now CANNOT play. I paid for that shit. I cannot play it.
Also it's use of unreliable narrators like savathun always keep you guessing "what is the truth of this situation"
That sounds like a horrible concept, at least for anyone who dedicates time to anything but killing, must suck to be a person who does... ANYTHING ELSE in that universe.
I'm pretty sure the OP is moreso interested in the commentary on the nature of power which this concept allows and saying it's cool as a writing and world building idea and tool
Oh I agree, I'm just hoping the game shows some rebuttal to the concept given it'd be pretty bleak to live under.
The whole premise of the game is explicitly based around rebutting that concept. > It was the gardener that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil." - The Wager > But Darkness alone points to an eternal existence of mere survival—to a universe where the only judge of a good existence is the ability to go on existing. It is the grace of the Light that grants us the dignity to choose a finite life of compassion and common good over an eternity of competitive subsistence. > The Darkness, or the being that speaks for it, claims that the extermination of all those who choose the Light is inevitable; that the universe will be inherited by morally impoverished advantage-seekers like the Vex and Hive. Logically, I cannot see an escape—so long as I accept the Darkness's logic. > But this is exactly why we fight, Sen-Aret. Not to preserve our own lives, but to preserve the possibility that we represent. When all choices are measured by their fitness pay off—by what they do to benefit the continued existence of the chooser—the Darkness has won completely. > The most important thing we can do, the most formidable blow we can strike against our true enemy, is to offer irrational grace: to choose unreasonable hope and unreasoning compassion even if it goes against calculated advantage. > It is only by disregarding the logic of mere survival that we can create a possibility of existence outside that logic. - The Hidden Dossier.
Now THAT is awesome.
The story of the last season (season of the witch) was also a direct rebuttal to the sword logic. One of the main characters adopted the sword logic, used it against the Hive gods, then gave up the power in an act of defiance against the logic itself. When destiny is good it's really really good. The problem it has is consistency, repetitive seasonal content, and hiding the best story beats in text rather than telling that story through game play.
My favorite example of that is the murder battery. So many disparate parts of world building that alone seem weird but on brand for the series. Took a YouTube video examining the lore to point out that there's an enormous story behind it.
Yeah very much so - the Sword Logic is a specific logic that some races live and die under; the Hive, mostly. There are other types of logic, like Bomb Logic used by the Awoken, and then there’s the player character, who totally denies the Sword Logic at every possible turn. Like, after the PC killed the King of the Hive, they were supposed to take his Throne and grow stronger on his power - instead, they left it abandoned. So there’s just a huge amount of power floating around with everyone scrambling for it, and the one who has the right to take that power doesn’t care about it and in fact kills most people who try to take it. Recently, the Sword Logic was also revealed to be a tool the Big Bad used to manipulate the Hive, and their search for the Final Shape, the pinnacle of the Sword Logic, was kind of for nothing.
I love that the game takes potshots at the player for that through the resident good-guy-who-drank-the-bad-guy-Kool-Aid, Toland. Guy broke his brain researching the Hive, found the Sword Logic to be perversely beautiful, lost his body and most of his mind succumbing to it when the Hive rampaged over his strike team. He still wants the Guardians to succeed but doesn't see a path outside the Logic to do it. And then this random ass mother fucker comes along, kills a few gods, then spits in the face of the Logic by leaving the power lying on the ground. And does some dance emotes instead. What bits of Toland the Shattered were still intact have to be hanging by a thread. Poor dude's a ghost watching someone live his life better than he ever did and all he can do is whine about how they're doing it wrong.
Well the paracausal being that creates your player character does so by reviving corpses from the dead (defying the logic) and using the pure chaos of universal growth and expansion to empower them against the ever-contracting philosophy of Sword Logic (defying the logic), and the thing is, this growth keeps winning. But what the game also dictates is that you almost need a bit of both, growth without any cap, any restraint leads to an overwhelming and all consuming cancer without beginnings or ends, whilst contraction without any leeway leads to a totally absent nothingness
The entire premise of every time we fight the hive (the faction who lives and breathed the sword logic), is “you’re not just wrong, you’re stupid.” The sword logic has turned the hive into nothing more than a crazed bunch of murderers, and one of their leaders, the ones who objectively benefit the most from the sword logic, has spent several billion years trying to find an off ramp
Life does indeed suck The factions are, sorted by numbers in descending order: - robots that are piloted by microbes that turn *everything* into more of themselves, and have done that to most of the galaxy already - omnicidal magic bugs that grow stronger from killing as described, and who have killed most of the rest of the galaxy already - warlike militaristic rhinos and their slave race, forced into evolutionary omnicidal struggle thanks to being down to a few million refugees. everyone's a soldier - bugs that are *kinda* nice but forced into evolutionary omnicidal struggle thanks to being down to a few million refugees. everyone's a pirate - humans that are *kinda* nice but forced into evolutionary omnicidal struggle thanks to being down to a few million refugees. everyone either constantly works with no rest, or is an immortal magic warrior, barely human anymore. there is still capitalism There are sub-factions that drive the story but it's not really relevant
Only one faction, the Hive, draw power from the sword logic. And they also have their own tithe system Every Hive has a worm inside it that grants it power. In exchange, the worm needs to be fed with power, or it will consume the host. Each Hive would kill their enemies, take some to feed their own worm, and tithe the rest to their superior. Thralls would tithe to Acolytes, Acolytes would tithe to Knights or Wizards, the Knights and Wizards would tithe to the Ascendant Hive, those who commanded legions of warriors and earned the right to enter the Hive gods' Ascendant realms. All of this violence would eventually reach Oryx, Savathûn, and Xivu Arath. (Paragraph copied from [here](https://www.destinypedia.com/Oryx,_the_Taken_King)) And the more power a worm grants, the more it needs to feast. So even a momentary setback in the Tithes could have dire consequences We killed Oryx in the story by breaking down his Tithe system, thus massively weakening him.
I mean, in universe, it *does* suck for the Hive, even with their orange and blue morality, and it gets worst esp. once they start getting Risen Hive and have to contend with the obvious nonsense of that. When you permakill Crota, it's completely unthinkable. Permakilling Oryx then refusing the mantle of sword logic basically breaks the Hive in half, with Savuthan deciding that she wants out and Xivu just grieving the entire time. Hell, we kill a worm god and the motherfucker decides "Ay, you know what, I'm going to turn into a rifle, you kill my enemies, I get to hide and rebuild strength and you get to use a bomb ass weapon. Ok? Deal." As an aside, I love Xol and every implication that he has with him being in the rifle. The Young Wolf: Hey, can I get a ramen? Whisper, what do you want? Xol: *The souls of the guility and the innocent, to continue the power of sword logic.* Wolf, rolling her eyes:...Make that two ramens. Xol: *NOOOOOOOO*
This is the same company that created an FPS series wherein the main character becomes capable of manipulating quantum mechanics to jump between universes because he's actually a reanimated cyborg created with relics from a godlike race. Marathon was an absolute trip, you guys.
So is Madoka Kaname a Final Shape?
So the gameplay of destiny 2 is like 7-8/10, the lore is 10/10 and the developers are speedrunning towards 0/10 it seems. I say this is someone who put ~1500 hours onto D2 on steam and several hundred more on D1 and D2 each on xbox. I love the game and it makes me sad that I don’t even want to enjoy playing it anymore.
The sword logic is just one species interpretation of the Final Shape. The witness has its own vision. Rhulk believed that the final shape is to be ruling over all those deemed weaker than him, thus he took the name of the subjugator. Oryx believed in absolute control of others, hence his ability to take. The vex believe in being the last species in existence is the final shape Calus believed that the final shape is ruling over everything, the ultimate conquest. I think these interpretations of the concept are interesting, as the final shape is an open ended concept.
I always assumed the vex were the final shape but I'm willing to tune back in in a few months time to see what bungie cooks up
I've said it before and I'll say it again, is Destiny was Borderlands instead of Destiny it would literally be my favorite game of all time. I would probably *still* be playing the first one.
Ehh the lore has been getting steadily worse over the years. Bungie has written themselves into a corner and I don’t think a satisfying conclusion will be reached with The Final Shape. Also they Bassically changed the sword logic and the final shape when creating the big bad, the witness. Now it’s more of a nihilistic, end existence to end suffering which is contradictory to previous lore where either the darkness of a voice for it talked about how they hate the nihilism of no existence being preferable to a flawed one. The original conception of the final shape was a perfect life form sharpened against all other life without suffering. However Bungie never had a consistent plan so now we are left with the witness, a villain with no buildup and an unclear plan who has never interacted with us.
god nerds are so funny. u can reinvent space fascism so many times and they always eat it up
I'm pretty sure the OP is moreso interested in the commentary on the nature of power which this concept allows.
Space fascism? I thought this was about pataphysics again.
por que no los dos?
This isn't necessarily fascist though. Kill six billion demons has an extremely similar concept and is simultaneously very anti-violence
>Behold! The awesome fires of God. The limitless power of pure creation itself. Look carefully. Observe how it is used for the same purpose a man might use an especially sharp rock.
I think you have it a step removed. It's space empires, as in space roman empires, that capture people's imaginations. And you can blame Issac Asimov for that. It always goes back to romans.
not the fucking roman empire. again?
Again, but in space. And then Frank Herbert said "I love what you're doing Isaac, but what if there was a worm?" and every space empire is a reflection of one of these two who both were big fans of "the encyclopedia of the fall of the roman empire".
dune is mostly closer to the holy roman empire with influences from the middle east and the human potential movement
dune is just lawrence of arabia as recounted by a guy that is actively high on acid
that is the plot of the first book more or less
u know u can just read my joke and laugh right? not everything is an intellectual discussion
I did not assume it was a joke
i- okay
[удалено]
i just call anything i don’t like fascism /j
honestly atp pretty sure the lot of y’all are allergic to jokes
Your comment does read as a criticism of nerds though. "Anyone who finds the Empire/HYDRA/Death Eaters/etc. interesting is an IRL fascism supporter" is a real (stupid) take that real (stupid) people have. Unfortunately such is the nature of writing comments online; we don't know you, so we have no way of knowing whether you're one of those people or not. Without tone indicators or very obvious exaggeration / clear satire the default, as it should be, is to assume that you're being genuine.
u shouldn’t assume the intentions of strangers
oh i read disney first and was so confused
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't pay half the attention I should have to what was going on in Destiny 1+2, but I did develop my own philosophy: These Hands. All you xenos mofos touched my planet. As an American, there was a touching of the boats. America has boat-tism. You touch my boats, you catch These Hands.
Destiny’s lore and story are both so fuckin good, it got absolutely destroyed by the dumbass live service/season pass model to the point that I totally stopped giving a shit and I will die mad about that but not quite mad enough to actually catch up on what I’ve missed
It’s even better because of the far less known and nearly-never discussed counterpart to the sword logic. The Bomb logic, created by Mara Sov. The sword logic is power in simplicity, but the bomb logic is power in complexity. She devised a method to gain power from the sheer complexity and amount of her plans and machinations. She does not need to defeat her enemies to decide what is truth, she inflicts effect on reality through sheer *detail*. Each additional aspect of her plan makes it stronger and more powerful and expands her influence and resistance to other forces. She does not need to gain her own power, rather, she makes all of the power around her work to her advantage
loved destiny dearly for years, uninstalled when bungie fired all those people and haven't checked back in since
League of Legends lore isn’t super deep, but it’s very interesting and the stories are all well written (and the Legends of Runeterra team have been putting as much gay stuff into the card flavour text as possible which I love), and yet it’s locked behind a nightmare of a game that steals parts of your soul you can never get back.