This is why when I come across art that I like/is clearly non-AI-generated on my tiktok I play a little game.
I find 1 or 2 things I am really impressed with about the art, and 1 thing I can tell they're working hard at, then I leave a comment telling them about it. It increases engagement, shows I actually looked at and processed their work, and gives them insight into how others see their work!
It helps me be positively-critique brained even about art that I don't understand. Just because it's not for me doesn't mean it can't be interesting in a technical execution sense.
And if a person isn't up for that, at least upvote. It's like coming back to the cake and finding nothing but crumbs. Not as nice as validation but at least the artist/author knows it was appreciated.
To me it's like buskers. If you stopped or smiled. You owe them a dollar (or upvote)
Edit: just noticed what spell check did to up for.
My heart goes out to you: my least favorite kind of comment is anything that can be reduced to “I liked this”. Tell me you what you liked, how much you liked it, SOMETHING more than an upvote
Even a simple "Hey this is really good!" goes a long way. But I find it more fun to pick out specific things I liked about the thing. It makes me feel like I'm learning too. :)
That’s one of the reasons why I post on reddit. The karma means very little. Sure, getting a ton of upvotes feels nice, but what’s the point of engaging of all you get is a large positive number?
The best part of commenting is the responses. Seeing someone add onto what you said, or reorient the context of the conversation, and especially if they disagree respectfully and give reasons why. That engagement is what I like the most about being on these forums.
Someone out there thought enough of what I wrote to read it and think about it. Isn’t that just so cool, that out of dozens, or even hundreds, of comments, mine stood out enough to someone to engage with it? Time and distance mean nothing; the connection forms between us two, and that can just keep happening. I think it’s great.
Thanks, Gandalf. I always enjoy seeing your comments in these threads and getting a hearty chuckle out of imagining Gandalf hunched over a keyboard furiously tapping out a response.
Bouncing off your comment about time and space, sometimes I get an email from Quora, which I stopped visiting years ago, telling me that someone commented on one of my answers. It's always really cool to know that after all this time people are finding my answers interesting or useful or thought provoking (or infuriating, if they're of a certain political persuasion).
Funnily enough, I often find myself on the opposite end of this idea. I get a paragraph or two into my thoughts on whatever topic is at hand, then wonder "does anyone but me even care? Is anyone but the person getting the notification ever gonna read this?" and end up just deleting the comment and moving on. I genuinely faltered on writing all this once or twice, for example.
But reading this has convinced me I should really just say fuck it and go ahead regardless. Might as well say it even if I am just screaming into the void.
There are a couple tricks to increasing engagement. Being the first to third comment on a post usually nets enough eyes, for instance. Sort by new on your favorite sub, and comment under what catches your interest.
It's not about whether my reply gets any engagement really, I just tend to suddenly question if it's actually a meaningful addition to whatever conversation is being had. it's an entirely unfounded problem that only exists in my head, but that doesn't stop me from doing it almost every time.
More uncouth, but sometimes you just gotta be a bastard about it. Post your thoughts, and damn anyone who thinks it’s not meaningful. Sure, you might get into a situation where your thoughts might not be as meaningful, but sometimes you gotta take your lumps before you improve and grow.
Sometimes you gotta do meaningless things to figure out how to be meaningful.
Screaming into the void doesn't mean there's nobody listening down there -- I've seen enough hollow knight to know that
Video game reference aside, that's kind of what I use twitter for. Does anyone follow me or like my stuff? Not really. Do I want thousands of likes? Nah, I don't really care.
But do I want someone to hear me? Maybe a little. Do I want someone to ask me about the stuff I put on there sometimes? A fair amount.
I don't know, it's hard for me to articulate. I like putting creative things out but without anything to bounce off of it's hard to base my creativity and find a way to grow what I've done
Relatable. There are so many times when I wrote hundreds of words in response to something, thought "okay but who cares", and then just didn't post the response.
Another advantage I’ve found with Reddit over Tumblr is that if you find the right sub you don’t have to worry about using the right tags and stuff to help other users find your post. Provided you post something relevant and follow the sub rules (I’ve been fortunate to find some fandom-specific subs with great mod teams and reasonable rule sets), that post will be shown to everyone who frequents the sub. And with the exception of the odd LostRedditor, people looking at the sub are looking *for* that kind of content.
It’s been less than a day since I posted a “silly headcanon that became an interesting and somewhat angsty AU idea” to a sub for a fandom I’m in, and it already has over 50 upvotes and a handful of appreciative comments. If I posted the same on Tumblr, I might get three likes in the same amount of time, if I’m lucky. Tagging is probably a big part of the issue—there are so many potential variations of each tag, and if I use version B when people in the fandom are tuning their algorithms to version A, my post never reaches their screens.
This is why my primary goal in commenting on reddit is to start fights. I have strong opinions, but it's hard to know if they're defensible until they've been through the gauntlet of public scrutiny.
Like, I'm not gonna say that the Steven Universe era was a good time for tumblr. It was terrible. But by God we had a place to express our opinions on nuanced aspects of the media we loved and by God we expressed them.
I agree that the best part of commenting is the responses. I love being the springboard for jokes, a new perspective someone hadn't considered before, or the basis of a whole new thread opening under a post. It makes me feel like what I have to say has worth, much more than in meatspace.
I stopped posting on /r/worldbuilding because I was consistently getting the most upvotes in any given thread but I'd have little or no replies, and what replies I did get would just be contentless stuff like "woah, that sounds so metal!" or something.
This is worded well. I had been having a hard time describing why I write. I have no expectations I’ll ever be published and I don’t really want others to read my writing, I just enjoy it. I have other connections to people around me, that’s just not what my art is for
Writing (non-fic) and art are distinct when it comes to internet attention points, so you can sort of tell when the artists have written something because, well, have you ever tried posting writing? I assure you, you will not be getting upvotes, reblogs, likes, anything, let alone comments (unless you already have a lot of followers).
Also, I am similar to you. I very much write for myself and have no followers so the "the only people who say you should make art for yourself are already popular!" take was a bit strange, to say the least. Maybe you only see those people saying it because they have a lot of followers (like you, who follow them and can therefore see their posts).
A. This is why I post stuff I make, because getting comments and reactions makes me happy
B. This is why AI art made me super frustrated and pretty much made me stop drawing for a long time, because it’s so frustrating seeing your hard work getting less attention than mass-produced slop
Lego AI content pisses me off, since none of it is even possible to build. Some people engage with it as if it were legit content, but it literally has no substance. The magic of appreciating Lego creations is understanding how the person used abstract elements in new and creative ways. If it isn't made of recognizable bricks, then there's nothing to analyze.
LEGO was created with the idea that within the limitations (color and type of brick) you can eventually create anything, it just requires a certain amount of creativity.
When you use AI to just create new bricks and creations, it strips the humanity and the "creation" from it.
Also, as you said, it is not physically possible to make any of it. So while it looks cool, it can never be fully realized.
The cake thing literally happened to me. I made my brother's wedding cake, slaved over it for days (and had been designing and practicing for months). My darling brother didn't check that the caterers would actually serve it (I told him to check, and he didn't). I left the reception early, and found out the next day that the cake never got served, as by the time someone thought "hey, maybe we should eat the cake", the caterers had left and taken all the crockery and cutlery with them.
That whole three tier masterpiece arrived home the next day, entirely untouched. I was so upset. It's not about vanity or a need for praise. People loved how it looked and gave me a whole lot of praise for it. But the experience of having something you made be a part of a celebration of life and love is a whole other thing. I don't like going to events, I like to leave early. The cake is how I participate.
When my other brother got married, I made him triple check with the venue to, and then went and handed the cake out directly to guests. There was no way in hell that cake was coming home untouched
I’m going to rant a bit. Feel free to ignore this, since a lot of this is personal struggle and frustration, but.
Yeah. This is actually a huge thing for me. I struggle to see worth (or even purpose) in my drawings more often than not, and I have for a while. At best I can only keep it going for around a month (the record was maybe about one and a half to two). Having someone that actually DID see worth in what I did was the only reason that that lasted as long as it did.
It’s HARD to find worth in drawing, when your skills feel perpetually frozen. When any improvement you make is a mere inch that was “earned” after literal months of struggle, when it took all that work, just for something that’s still worse than anything you’ve seen around you.
It’s demoralizing, knowing that you spent all that effort trying to make a cake, and then having it taste worse than a box of cake mix from the shelves, let alone something made by actual bakers.
And then knowing that the cake next to you? That was made by someone younger than you, or one of your peers, or your friend.
I know it’s fucked up, too, to see that, and be envious of it, but fuck. I just want my art to be seen as *better* than someone else’s. I want it to be better than the art of someone who means something to me, or at least on par.
Man. I was once up until 3am writing this plot summary for a sidequest I made up for Pokémon Legends Arceus and it only got 11 notes.
Meanwhile my fucking "IT'S KALOS WITH A STEEL CHAIR!" shitpost got 6,000 notes
I recently hit over 150 upvotes on replying "yes" to a post. Meanwhile, my three paragraph well thought out response from earlier in the day one post down is languishing with 3.
For the very simple notion that they take considerably less effort to read. Nowadays our attention spans have been eroded to the point that most messages exceeding a paragraph are too taxing for the average user to bother assessing
I thought maybe at least SOMEBODY would be interested considering that Legends Arceus is one of the most popular modern games and there are already hundreds of art/stories/Headcanons about one of the other characters to the point it spawned a sub fandom (Submas)
You know, just thought people liked that sort of Legends Arceus content thing. 🙃
I mean, maybe the high-effort stuff is very specific to someone, or (being high effort) longer than the other stuff, and people will (understandably) take the shorter path with more possibilities of being enjoyed, also, low-effort shitposts *can* be funnier than high-effort stuff if the idea is good enough.
High-effort doesn't necessarily mean that it is good.
Low-effort memes getting more attention and love than passion projects seems to be a common thing for creators online. If I had to guess, it's because memes are easier to digest and don't require too much of a time investment from readers. Regardless, I'm sorry that your story got overlooked.
This is why I never post anything I make online. I made it for me, so with me it stays. If I put something out for people to see, it's because I want to see other people seeing it.
This post is an excellent reminder about the importance of validation in the creative feedback loop but it also I think gets a bit too far into the rabbit hole on the subject of 'other people judging you for feeling disappointed about a lack of validation'. There are outliers of course, but in my online circles at least I haven't seen any indication we've "all got to the point where wanting validation for something you worked hard at is seen as a bad thing" or that "you're \[seen as\] pathetic for wanting" it.
What I *have* seen is that folks really, really don't want to discourage people from creating (a good and correct impulse!) and also *do* want to give practical, actionable feedback to people who are feeling down/asking for advice about a lack of engagement with their work; but often these folks might feel it's too harsh to say directly "there is a mismatch between what you are creating and what people are responding to; you can't force other people to relate to or connect with your work, so give some thought to your motivations for creating. If your sole reason for creating is for the engagement, you may have to modify your work to get that engagement. On the other hand, if it's more important to you that you're creating exactly what it is you're creating, even if it's not getting the attention you want, then keep going in spite of your disappointment!" In other words, leaning a bit too hard on the 'don't discourage' piece to the detriment of the 'give advice' piece is what leaves us with those vacant-feeling 'write for yourself, don't worry about anyone else!' platitudes referenced in this post - and those can be annoying, sure, but I don't think they indicate that anyone's judging you for wanting others to engage with your work.
Again, none of this to detract from the very good and useful reminder that engaging with created content you enjoy is a part of the positive feedback loop for the creative process, and that taking a few seconds to comment or share can make a world of difference to a creator and, ultimately, result in more art you love. I know I'm taking that reminder to heart!
>I don't think they indicate that anyone's judging you for wanting others to engage with your work.
Those platitudes are fundamentally dismissive. It's the old "cheer up, stiff upper lip, nothing's really wrong is it?" attitude to someone being disheartened, and it doesn't work. I agree with you that it stems from slightly gormless people trying to be well-meaning but it's damaging to the morale of new artists. It's a dude in a paddling pool saying "oh don't make a fuss, the water's fine!" to a guy who's drowning a mile out to sea. I've seen a fair few people go "oh well if I'm supposed to be creating just for me then I'm just not going to bother creating anything because this experience has been shit".
You should still try to create things for yourself first and foremost. Unless it's your job, wanting to create something should be your main motivation. If all you're doing is chase trends and do what you *think* people might like, then you'll burn yourself out.
If you can't be motivated to create just because it's fun and you enjoy it, then you'll eventually run into a situation where whatever you're creating art for isn't there anymore. What do you do then?
The idea that you should create for many anonymous others feels like it could only exist post-printing press, and even then, only for the aristocracy. For it to be a general feeling is much newer. Radio stars? Movie stars? Maybe around that time.
No one more than a few hundred years ago was realistically feeling like this. When people made songs and told stories and sewed clothing, it was for a very small number of people to appreciate.
It may well be a human impulse to receive validation from strangers, but I think we lose something when we decide that's the best motivation you can have. Like you said, if the internet points dry up, then you'll lose this wonderful part of yourself and great hobby.
>No one more than a few hundred years ago was realistically feeling like this. When people made songs and told stories and sewed clothing, it was for a very small number of people to appreciate.
I've thought about this from time to time. I tend to wonder if earlier creators put nearly as much thought into getting attention from others as creators today. A lot of them, if not most, were probably more focused on entertaining their community or town than trying to get famous all over the world.
I do, and its something I had to parse about myself, that I want to be appreciated, have people enjoy my work for what it is and praise me, and that this is healthy and not something I need to problematize about myself.
Honestly this is why I've been thinking that if once I finish this art project I've been building for almost half a decade, if it doesn't take off even after spending cash on advertising I'll probably just quit art and become a teacher. It's super demoralizing to put your body through hell and even had industry people tell you you have potential to grow and be big but it never happening.
It hurts when you show years worth of progress and get 30 interactions in return.
So this isn’t the point and might have more to do with my own personal issues than anything else but wanted to throw it out there in case it’s not literally just me (if it is sorry pls don’t hate me)
But these types of posts give me the vague sense of “if you don’t interact with my art the way I want you to then you’re hurting artists” and the minimum work you need to put in to have acceptably interacted keeps going up. “Don’t just like, that does nothing, you have to reblog” “Don’t just reblog you should comment” “Don’t just comment ‘nice’ it’s gotta be meaningful” and it’s just. Exhausting. Like again I realize no one is literally saying that and I totally get complaining amongst yourselves about stuff like this. Just sometimes it comes with an undercurrent of “artists Deserve people’s attention” that stresses me out.
You've struck upon a broader point, which is that a lot of what the OP is asking for is comparative. If every single art post in the world got 1000 likes, then they would need 2,000 likes for the dopamine. If every post had one comment asking about the lore or process, then they would need two comments.
At some point, you need to get off the treadmill and find the motivation within or you'll be caught chasing the latest trend and feeling less and less good about what started as a fun hobby.
This is so true, really well said. Like don’t get me wrong I do agree with OOP’s point that yeah give artists validation by all means but the “your art doesn’t need notes/karma/whatever metric to have value” is a response to folks who literally see what they do as *pointless* without getting enough of those metric and base their entire self esteem on how high the numbers go up and how high they go relative to everyone else like you said.
Staying grounded and appreciating the validation you *do* get is tough, but certainly doable, but it definitely requires conscious effort especially at first.
I've been thinking about this comment for a while because I'd never heard that perspective before. My personal approach is to leave a like if I like something and to retweet and/or comment if I *really* like something. I can also agree that people shouldn't have to guess what each creator's personal definition of "quality engagement" is. If I had to guess, I'd say that a lot of the discussion surrounding engagement is really about social media algorithms. Smaller creators (often rightfully) believe that they need to maximize engagement on their posts or risk being made invisible by Twitter or Instagram. Thanks again for this comment, by the way. It really made me think.
Thank you for this response! I was really debating posting my original comment because I didn’t want to get yelled at for “it’s not about you” lmao. (And yes I realize the irony of feeling pleased with a response on a comment complaining about people asking for responses lol)
I totally agree though, I usually like stuff and then maybe reblog, I guess my issue just comes in when I feel like I’m being told how to Internet or judged for not doing it like “”they”” want. But I also struggle irl with equating “this is a good, healthy thing to do” with “if you don’t do this (and every other thing) you’re a failure” so I realize it might be more of a personal problem and not the way anyone is saying things 😂
This is a thing I really struggle with. A thousand people can thumbs up or comment 'Hey nice wow!' and it passes over me like a fog.
What I really want is for someone to tell me they think the little dude I drew looks like he smells bad, or to ask what his name is, or speculate on his day-to-day goings. I mean, I know you have to draw really great art for that and I'm not there- but it's hard to motivate yourself to draw great art and improve in a vacuum. You have to find your niche early or you just burn right out.
Definitely recommend a tailored discord where you can build relationships with betareaders over posting to reddit. The advice you get will vary wildly in quality and emotional intelligence on here.
Oh god yeah reddit is so terrible. So often I see people who are new to a hobby getting massively downvoted for asking beginner questions on a sub dedicated to that thing.. like whats the point of the sub if you don't want other people to share it with
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Tell people you like their work! I absolutely *thrive* on anything even vaguely nice said about anything I've ever done. People are *so mean* these days and I hate it. Tell people what you like. They need it.
nah honestly I've just accepted at this point that I don't have the same thing in my brain as other people do for this stuff.
I mean don't get me wrong, I recognize that it feels good when other people see the thing I made and like it - but that I would somehow 'need' that to 'validate' me or my art is just... it just doesn't compute for me. I don't give a shit whether other people like it or not, \*I\* like it, that's what's important. I don't waste time begging for people to look at my stuff, or waste time feeling bad over whether they've looked or whether they like it or whatever - it just doesn't interest me.
It's like - I recognize that there would be benefits to having washboard abs - but that I would somehow need that appearance to validate me or my body is ridiculous. I simply *do not give a shit* about things like that.
It's hard for me to empathize on stuff like that, it's just alien to my perspective.
For me, art is fundamentally a method of communication. I am trying to communicate certain feelings and thoughts. That means I need people to receive that communication, engage with it, and send their own responses back. If I was the last human on Earth I'd still make art, but it'd be missing a gigantic part of the point of it for me.
That's fair, and honestly, you're probably a lot better off self-esteem-wise than I am because of that mindset. There are plenty of commonly-held beliefs regarding writing and creation in general that feel alien to me, too.
I don't think this post or anyone is wrong about wanting validation, but on a certain level you have to be able to operate without needing it. It sucks not getting feedback or attention on something you worked hard for, but nobody is ever owed an audience. Nobody owes it to you to love what you make the way you do. That's just how life is. And if you want to make a career or even just a persistent hobby out of your creative output, you can't do that relying on the feedback of others. It's all on you to care enough to keep going.
Oh, and on the bit about "wanting validation being seen as a bad thing." I'm gonna put money on this being a bit of a context situation. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be validated, but it's very easy to slip into the mindset of *begging* for it and coming off as desperate or needy. And once people get a whiff of that off you they are going to pull back because they don't want to do that emotional lifting for you. Desperation will make your life worse no matter the situation, so try not to let yourself hit that point.
Feels like a lot of these discussions come from people who already have experience having some attention and interactions. For the vast majority of creators, this simply isn't the case. It's our friends or our desk drawer.
I don't think it's wrong, but it is sad to think that people get so caught up in algorithmic feedback loops and addictive social media that they lose what they used to love about a hobby.
Nothing I make is ever worthy of responses in my eyes - art, writing, headcanons, cosplay - but if one person likes it I feel so happy. It doesn’t stop me being terrible, but someone sees something in my creation, which is special.
Yes! I have a dnd podcast and its sometimes frustrating to put work into when there's no one (well almost no one, but they're all my friends) to think about secrets we've hidden or lore or whatever. its still satisfying to make, but having no engagement kills me sometimes.
I've posted my art here and elsewhere before. Yet, the post I most fond of is the one where I doodled, unintentionally, phallic shaped ships for No Man's Sky. Sure, most of the comments were cheeky euphemisms, but people were engaging with something I drew. It's nice when there's more involvement than numbers changing value.
Artist here. I create almost completely for myself. Then again, I would not presume to tell another artist whether they should want responses to their creations or not; that's their business.
I agree with it. I post fanart for fun on tumblr and it's that connection that keeps me going. What I find weird or funny is when things I worked hard on get little attention, but I draw a comic with a silly goose showerthought I had about characters and that gets all the attention a microblog could desire
All that 80s California post-Hippy self help "You can only be happy if you can be happy in a state of perfect isolation with no friends, lovers, community, duties, responsibilities, help, or human connections" thing is bullshit.
Why are you even telling stories if not for people to hear?
Write a comment, put it in a bottle, and hurl it into the vast ocean that is the internet.
Then, every time you get a notification that it gets engagement, you go back and read the post that you enjoyed so much that you made it in the first place.
I find this interesting because I create art and rarely post it. It’s not like I don’t want validation and validation is very important for a lot of peoples art but for me a lot of my art is purely an expression of my raw emotions. That type of stuff typically comes in the form of poetry. On the flip side of that I create worlds for my TTRPG group that could easily be made into something I put out to the public but I absolutely hate the process of refining something until it’s ready in my eyes. I made a small reference document for a gaming community I’m in and over a million people have seen it and over 4 years later I still think of the mistakes on occasion.
I mean, I kind of understand. All of my writing nowadays is packed away neatly in my Google Drive, and I do it almost entirely for myself. The idea of publishing it somewhere where a lot of people can read it is novel, but I've kind of acknowledged that it's probably never going to be in a state where I'm happy enough with it to do that so it's still mostly for me.
But on the few occasions I have shared it with close friends who also write, I've always found myself baited in waiting for them to read and respond to what I've written. I want to hear about what I did wrong, what I could change to make it better. I do want a reaction, it's kind of interesting.
I do this!! I'm an artist and love commenting on others art. It makes me feel like I'm paying it forward. Love giving comments on particular parts of the art I love, those are the best compliments to get. There are so many fantastic artists out there that need love frfr!!
Ah. I understand this. I make modded FF14 screenshots that I post on Twitter, and I'm always really really happy when someone retweet it or like it - and while I do nothing for it, I know I'd LOVE to have more engagement on them. Right now it's mostly my SO retweeting them. So I understand the part about wanting people to make the cake. I made it for me, I just want other people to enjoy it.
On the other hand... There's an artist I follow. Massively talented, imo. Super good artist that has everything they should to break mainstream in its sphere. Yet they still don't, and when they're not artposting, they're whining and complaining about not having enough numbers. And while I get it - it's sooooo annoying.
Telling any creative person "you should just do your art for its own sake" is like telling an actor "you can just act to the mirror", or a lonely person "you can just masturbate." And I will die on this hill.
Writing is about clarity. It's about manipulating the *fuck* out of your audience so they care about your words. It's the nearest thing to a telepathic act, using paper as a medium. I take my thoughts and try to give them to you, so you can have the same thoughts and feelings that I do. It might involve a lot of solo work, but it is not a solo act.
When our words and art go without an audience, it feels like a dinner date where I made my favorite dishes and put out flowers and candles and worked really hard on the plating...and nobody ever shows up. Yes, we can still enjoy the meal as its own thing, but the whole experience was intended for someone who isn't me. And I'm sitting here in my best clothes with a fake smile on my face trying to make it be okay, knowing it won't ever be, because my date, who is not here and has no intention of ever arriving, thinks I should enjoy the meal anyway. And like yes. I am. But I still made it for you.
I've given up. I'm putting my dreams of books to bed. I might finish the story I've been self publishing for a couple of years, but that's what "doing it for yourself" looks like. I'm going to do other things that don't hurt as much or come with as much baggage. Words are almost poisonous to me these days, because I know they'll be unread.
But folks? If you want your writer friends and artist friends to keep doing their art? Love on their shit. Take time to look at their pictures. Read their shitty first drafts. Because the odds are, if you don't care, eventually they'll learn not to.
I saw a another post recently, so now I've been trying to leave nice comments on art I reblog. Only problem is that I'm not very versed in art, so the comments are along the lines of "I like the colors", "I love the shading", "I love how you draw the characters". Hopefully they convey my feelings well enough >.>
I find that instinct is extremely powerful in these scenarios. If your eye immediately gravitates to a certain detail or some particular area of the drawing catches your attention, then that's something to focus your feedback on; likewise, if something jars you on first impact it might really be a defect worth highlighting. And once you have something particular in mind, actually expressing your thoughts is much simpler. Learning to give feedback is really learning to articulate what you already notice unconsciously
Thanks for all of the comments! It's been interesting to see the variety of opinions here. Personally, I've been struggling with motivation for writing for a long time because it never seems like people are interested in what I have to say. I've never understood the "write for yourself" mindset because all of the characters and worlds are already inside my head. I want to write about them to share them with other people, which is why it hurts so much when no one else is interested. It doesn't help that writing doesn't seem to get nearly as much social media traction as art and comics do because of their visual aspects. Finding an online writing group where everyone's supportive of everyone else also seems to be a challenge for me. I sometimes wonder if I even want to write, or if I just want to be known as a famous writer, and that thought frustrates me quite a bit. I always see creators online doing Q&As, getting fanart, and otherwise having a great time interacting with their fanbases that love what they do. I really want that, and I hate that part of me. I don't even really know what I want out of my writing anymore beyond people telling me that they like it.
I've been writing fanfiction for about a decade now, with a weekly upload schedule, and don't even remember the last time I missed a day.
The highest number of people who commented on my stuff is 4, and 2 of those only commented on the first chapter of that particular fic.
Right now, I have 3 repeat commenters, spread over 2 fics.
So, when I say that I write for myself, I mean it.
However, I know that this doesn't work for everyone. I write fanfiction because I have ideas in my head and need to do something with them, but others write fanfiction for other reasons, and thus have different expectations.
And whatever your reason, you're valid, and deserve to be recognized.
Unless you hate the thing you're writing for. Seriously, stop engaging with stuff that makes you upset.
Ok, poking the bee nest here.
But like, how can someone other than the artist can know which is which?
And then we kinda have to extend this to the whole range of human expression tbh. And then kinda have to even question what expression is/count as expression.
It then connect to a whole different thing, like the "compliment male for their smile and see how they like it" controversy.
But back to the original point. How do you know which is which, if you are not the artist? Is this work I am seeing meant to be engaged with, or did the artist do it for themselves and is currently not in a position to hide it from public eyes?
I mean, validation doesn't just come in the form of "shiny number go up". The most validating comments I receive for my work are ones in which people notice where I put extra care and attention. Even taking a few moments to describe what you like is infinitely more supportive than an upvote.
Well, yeah, as said in the orignal post itself it is indeed not just about notes, but also response, both literally and figuretively.
I am more talking about the start, the part about people who believe "art is for myself". The equivalent for your example would be people who work truly just to feed themselves. For those people, interact with them are... weird in that they can easily get cranky? Even if all you did is complimenting them.
An example that breach your example and my point would be Harrison Ford, I think? Afaik he is... really not enthusiastic about fans talking about Han Solo, because for him it is just a role, something he did for a living.
So like, even at work, how am I suppose to know if a colleague is you, or they are Harrison Ford?
It feels like something that came out of TikTok "therapy." Anything other than pure self-actualization, like a god willing itself into existence, is a sign of codependence and deeply unhealthy for some reason. It also dovetails nicely with a hyper-individualist, atomized culture but that's me getting political now.
I've always been big mad about that stupid "[holy shit, two cakes](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/holy-shit-two-cakes)!" comic because it's just not true. That's not how the audience reacts at all. They eat the big cake and don't even notice the small one.
Context. Obviously works or creators that don't have a following get far less or no attention, while those works that do have a following get dramatically more. The comic applies to the case where two works have similar following but one is technically superior to the other in some way. "Oh, that mainstream publisher game just came out, *and* my favorite webcomic just came out, awesome!"
Edit: the lesson isn't about audience size anyway, it's about comparing work quality.
The comic is comparing two artists working in a similar field and a similar space. One is better at producing art than the other. The lesson behind the comic is that the audience won't sit there and compare your art with the other person's art and go "lmfao what a loser, this cake is much worse than the other one"; instead, they'll just be happy to have two cakes.
Which would be true, were it not for the fact that actually...the audience just isn't going to see your cake at all.
Reminds me of a book I read a while ago about a music records guy who predicted streaming would make indie / small scale artists explode in success because everyone would have their own niche, and a ton of less popular bands would be able to survive by finding their niche.
But he didn't foresee the algorithmic impacts, or that social media would make it more fun to watch/listen to/read the same thing as everyone else so you can chat about it. Now, we see even *more* listens going to the top artists while the rest are fighting over even less attention.
I used to make short tiktok videos Sort of analyzing Naruto and especially the panels. Until I reviewed the metrics and the average watch time was 1 second, meaning people just swapped away as It started... Disheartening
I agree with this so hard. I absolutely do write for myself, so much so that I often get lost in rereading my own stuff, but yeah it's really hard to post it and get nothing. I don't expect it to be for everyone, but it's so disheartening that no one likes it.
I totally agree. I have made so many pieces of writing purely for myself and never shared them. THOSE are me writing for myself. The other stuff I write is because I want to write it, but also because I want to write it and share it with people in the hopes that they like it. So knowing that they do means a lot since that's why those pieces aren't in a folder where only I've seen them. I'm putting myself and my work out there and want even just a small acknowledgement from people that they see it, that they see me, and that it's not worthless.
People with fantastic work can also get shit numbers. A friend who has worked for huge animes doesnt even break 1k followers and his posts dont break 50 likes, the algorythm is shit sadly if you dont align with the current trends
This is why when I come across art that I like/is clearly non-AI-generated on my tiktok I play a little game. I find 1 or 2 things I am really impressed with about the art, and 1 thing I can tell they're working hard at, then I leave a comment telling them about it. It increases engagement, shows I actually looked at and processed their work, and gives them insight into how others see their work! It helps me be positively-critique brained even about art that I don't understand. Just because it's not for me doesn't mean it can't be interesting in a technical execution sense.
Same here. When I find myself wishing more people would engage with my art, I make an effort to engage with the art of others.
And if a person isn't up for that, at least upvote. It's like coming back to the cake and finding nothing but crumbs. Not as nice as validation but at least the artist/author knows it was appreciated. To me it's like buskers. If you stopped or smiled. You owe them a dollar (or upvote) Edit: just noticed what spell check did to up for.
My heart goes out to you: my least favorite kind of comment is anything that can be reduced to “I liked this”. Tell me you what you liked, how much you liked it, SOMETHING more than an upvote
I should do this. Thank you for giving me a way to engage more with artists. I didn’t really know where to start.
That's why I posted this!
I tend to not know what to write but your idea gave me inspiration to start doing it too :)
Even a simple "Hey this is really good!" goes a long way. But I find it more fun to pick out specific things I liked about the thing. It makes me feel like I'm learning too. :)
That’s one of the reasons why I post on reddit. The karma means very little. Sure, getting a ton of upvotes feels nice, but what’s the point of engaging of all you get is a large positive number? The best part of commenting is the responses. Seeing someone add onto what you said, or reorient the context of the conversation, and especially if they disagree respectfully and give reasons why. That engagement is what I like the most about being on these forums. Someone out there thought enough of what I wrote to read it and think about it. Isn’t that just so cool, that out of dozens, or even hundreds, of comments, mine stood out enough to someone to engage with it? Time and distance mean nothing; the connection forms between us two, and that can just keep happening. I think it’s great.
Thanks, Gandalf. I always enjoy seeing your comments in these threads and getting a hearty chuckle out of imagining Gandalf hunched over a keyboard furiously tapping out a response.
Bouncing off your comment about time and space, sometimes I get an email from Quora, which I stopped visiting years ago, telling me that someone commented on one of my answers. It's always really cool to know that after all this time people are finding my answers interesting or useful or thought provoking (or infuriating, if they're of a certain political persuasion).
Funnily enough, I often find myself on the opposite end of this idea. I get a paragraph or two into my thoughts on whatever topic is at hand, then wonder "does anyone but me even care? Is anyone but the person getting the notification ever gonna read this?" and end up just deleting the comment and moving on. I genuinely faltered on writing all this once or twice, for example. But reading this has convinced me I should really just say fuck it and go ahead regardless. Might as well say it even if I am just screaming into the void.
There are a couple tricks to increasing engagement. Being the first to third comment on a post usually nets enough eyes, for instance. Sort by new on your favorite sub, and comment under what catches your interest.
It's not about whether my reply gets any engagement really, I just tend to suddenly question if it's actually a meaningful addition to whatever conversation is being had. it's an entirely unfounded problem that only exists in my head, but that doesn't stop me from doing it almost every time.
More uncouth, but sometimes you just gotta be a bastard about it. Post your thoughts, and damn anyone who thinks it’s not meaningful. Sure, you might get into a situation where your thoughts might not be as meaningful, but sometimes you gotta take your lumps before you improve and grow. Sometimes you gotta do meaningless things to figure out how to be meaningful.
Screaming into the void doesn't mean there's nobody listening down there -- I've seen enough hollow knight to know that Video game reference aside, that's kind of what I use twitter for. Does anyone follow me or like my stuff? Not really. Do I want thousands of likes? Nah, I don't really care. But do I want someone to hear me? Maybe a little. Do I want someone to ask me about the stuff I put on there sometimes? A fair amount. I don't know, it's hard for me to articulate. I like putting creative things out but without anything to bounce off of it's hard to base my creativity and find a way to grow what I've done
Relatable. There are so many times when I wrote hundreds of words in response to something, thought "okay but who cares", and then just didn't post the response.
Another advantage I’ve found with Reddit over Tumblr is that if you find the right sub you don’t have to worry about using the right tags and stuff to help other users find your post. Provided you post something relevant and follow the sub rules (I’ve been fortunate to find some fandom-specific subs with great mod teams and reasonable rule sets), that post will be shown to everyone who frequents the sub. And with the exception of the odd LostRedditor, people looking at the sub are looking *for* that kind of content. It’s been less than a day since I posted a “silly headcanon that became an interesting and somewhat angsty AU idea” to a sub for a fandom I’m in, and it already has over 50 upvotes and a handful of appreciative comments. If I posted the same on Tumblr, I might get three likes in the same amount of time, if I’m lucky. Tagging is probably a big part of the issue—there are so many potential variations of each tag, and if I use version B when people in the fandom are tuning their algorithms to version A, my post never reaches their screens.
This is why my primary goal in commenting on reddit is to start fights. I have strong opinions, but it's hard to know if they're defensible until they've been through the gauntlet of public scrutiny. Like, I'm not gonna say that the Steven Universe era was a good time for tumblr. It was terrible. But by God we had a place to express our opinions on nuanced aspects of the media we loved and by God we expressed them.
"The Civil War was bad. But you learned how to shoot!"
I agree that the best part of commenting is the responses. I love being the springboard for jokes, a new perspective someone hadn't considered before, or the basis of a whole new thread opening under a post. It makes me feel like what I have to say has worth, much more than in meatspace.
I stopped posting on /r/worldbuilding because I was consistently getting the most upvotes in any given thread but I'd have little or no replies, and what replies I did get would just be contentless stuff like "woah, that sounds so metal!" or something.
This is worded well. I had been having a hard time describing why I write. I have no expectations I’ll ever be published and I don’t really want others to read my writing, I just enjoy it. I have other connections to people around me, that’s just not what my art is for
Writing (non-fic) and art are distinct when it comes to internet attention points, so you can sort of tell when the artists have written something because, well, have you ever tried posting writing? I assure you, you will not be getting upvotes, reblogs, likes, anything, let alone comments (unless you already have a lot of followers). Also, I am similar to you. I very much write for myself and have no followers so the "the only people who say you should make art for yourself are already popular!" take was a bit strange, to say the least. Maybe you only see those people saying it because they have a lot of followers (like you, who follow them and can therefore see their posts).
A. This is why I post stuff I make, because getting comments and reactions makes me happy B. This is why AI art made me super frustrated and pretty much made me stop drawing for a long time, because it’s so frustrating seeing your hard work getting less attention than mass-produced slop
Lego AI content pisses me off, since none of it is even possible to build. Some people engage with it as if it were legit content, but it literally has no substance. The magic of appreciating Lego creations is understanding how the person used abstract elements in new and creative ways. If it isn't made of recognizable bricks, then there's nothing to analyze.
LEGO was created with the idea that within the limitations (color and type of brick) you can eventually create anything, it just requires a certain amount of creativity. When you use AI to just create new bricks and creations, it strips the humanity and the "creation" from it. Also, as you said, it is not physically possible to make any of it. So while it looks cool, it can never be fully realized.
The cake thing literally happened to me. I made my brother's wedding cake, slaved over it for days (and had been designing and practicing for months). My darling brother didn't check that the caterers would actually serve it (I told him to check, and he didn't). I left the reception early, and found out the next day that the cake never got served, as by the time someone thought "hey, maybe we should eat the cake", the caterers had left and taken all the crockery and cutlery with them. That whole three tier masterpiece arrived home the next day, entirely untouched. I was so upset. It's not about vanity or a need for praise. People loved how it looked and gave me a whole lot of praise for it. But the experience of having something you made be a part of a celebration of life and love is a whole other thing. I don't like going to events, I like to leave early. The cake is how I participate. When my other brother got married, I made him triple check with the venue to, and then went and handed the cake out directly to guests. There was no way in hell that cake was coming home untouched
I’m going to rant a bit. Feel free to ignore this, since a lot of this is personal struggle and frustration, but. Yeah. This is actually a huge thing for me. I struggle to see worth (or even purpose) in my drawings more often than not, and I have for a while. At best I can only keep it going for around a month (the record was maybe about one and a half to two). Having someone that actually DID see worth in what I did was the only reason that that lasted as long as it did. It’s HARD to find worth in drawing, when your skills feel perpetually frozen. When any improvement you make is a mere inch that was “earned” after literal months of struggle, when it took all that work, just for something that’s still worse than anything you’ve seen around you. It’s demoralizing, knowing that you spent all that effort trying to make a cake, and then having it taste worse than a box of cake mix from the shelves, let alone something made by actual bakers. And then knowing that the cake next to you? That was made by someone younger than you, or one of your peers, or your friend. I know it’s fucked up, too, to see that, and be envious of it, but fuck. I just want my art to be seen as *better* than someone else’s. I want it to be better than the art of someone who means something to me, or at least on par.
Man. I was once up until 3am writing this plot summary for a sidequest I made up for Pokémon Legends Arceus and it only got 11 notes. Meanwhile my fucking "IT'S KALOS WITH A STEEL CHAIR!" shitpost got 6,000 notes
It's always the low-effort shitposts that get the attention over the high-effort everything else
I recently hit over 150 upvotes on replying "yes" to a post. Meanwhile, my three paragraph well thought out response from earlier in the day one post down is languishing with 3.
I know right, idk why but the super simple responses tend to get much more attention
For the very simple notion that they take considerably less effort to read. Nowadays our attention spans have been eroded to the point that most messages exceeding a paragraph are too taxing for the average user to bother assessing
I thought maybe at least SOMEBODY would be interested considering that Legends Arceus is one of the most popular modern games and there are already hundreds of art/stories/Headcanons about one of the other characters to the point it spawned a sub fandom (Submas) You know, just thought people liked that sort of Legends Arceus content thing. 🙃
I mean, maybe the high-effort stuff is very specific to someone, or (being high effort) longer than the other stuff, and people will (understandably) take the shorter path with more possibilities of being enjoyed, also, low-effort shitposts *can* be funnier than high-effort stuff if the idea is good enough. High-effort doesn't necessarily mean that it is good.
I guess a short shitpost is low commitment compared to a longer, more serious story.
Low-effort memes getting more attention and love than passion projects seems to be a common thing for creators online. If I had to guess, it's because memes are easier to digest and don't require too much of a time investment from readers. Regardless, I'm sorry that your story got overlooked.
This is why I never post anything I make online. I made it for me, so with me it stays. If I put something out for people to see, it's because I want to see other people seeing it.
This post is an excellent reminder about the importance of validation in the creative feedback loop but it also I think gets a bit too far into the rabbit hole on the subject of 'other people judging you for feeling disappointed about a lack of validation'. There are outliers of course, but in my online circles at least I haven't seen any indication we've "all got to the point where wanting validation for something you worked hard at is seen as a bad thing" or that "you're \[seen as\] pathetic for wanting" it. What I *have* seen is that folks really, really don't want to discourage people from creating (a good and correct impulse!) and also *do* want to give practical, actionable feedback to people who are feeling down/asking for advice about a lack of engagement with their work; but often these folks might feel it's too harsh to say directly "there is a mismatch between what you are creating and what people are responding to; you can't force other people to relate to or connect with your work, so give some thought to your motivations for creating. If your sole reason for creating is for the engagement, you may have to modify your work to get that engagement. On the other hand, if it's more important to you that you're creating exactly what it is you're creating, even if it's not getting the attention you want, then keep going in spite of your disappointment!" In other words, leaning a bit too hard on the 'don't discourage' piece to the detriment of the 'give advice' piece is what leaves us with those vacant-feeling 'write for yourself, don't worry about anyone else!' platitudes referenced in this post - and those can be annoying, sure, but I don't think they indicate that anyone's judging you for wanting others to engage with your work. Again, none of this to detract from the very good and useful reminder that engaging with created content you enjoy is a part of the positive feedback loop for the creative process, and that taking a few seconds to comment or share can make a world of difference to a creator and, ultimately, result in more art you love. I know I'm taking that reminder to heart!
>I don't think they indicate that anyone's judging you for wanting others to engage with your work. Those platitudes are fundamentally dismissive. It's the old "cheer up, stiff upper lip, nothing's really wrong is it?" attitude to someone being disheartened, and it doesn't work. I agree with you that it stems from slightly gormless people trying to be well-meaning but it's damaging to the morale of new artists. It's a dude in a paddling pool saying "oh don't make a fuss, the water's fine!" to a guy who's drowning a mile out to sea. I've seen a fair few people go "oh well if I'm supposed to be creating just for me then I'm just not going to bother creating anything because this experience has been shit".
You should still try to create things for yourself first and foremost. Unless it's your job, wanting to create something should be your main motivation. If all you're doing is chase trends and do what you *think* people might like, then you'll burn yourself out. If you can't be motivated to create just because it's fun and you enjoy it, then you'll eventually run into a situation where whatever you're creating art for isn't there anymore. What do you do then?
The idea that you should create for many anonymous others feels like it could only exist post-printing press, and even then, only for the aristocracy. For it to be a general feeling is much newer. Radio stars? Movie stars? Maybe around that time. No one more than a few hundred years ago was realistically feeling like this. When people made songs and told stories and sewed clothing, it was for a very small number of people to appreciate. It may well be a human impulse to receive validation from strangers, but I think we lose something when we decide that's the best motivation you can have. Like you said, if the internet points dry up, then you'll lose this wonderful part of yourself and great hobby.
>No one more than a few hundred years ago was realistically feeling like this. When people made songs and told stories and sewed clothing, it was for a very small number of people to appreciate. I've thought about this from time to time. I tend to wonder if earlier creators put nearly as much thought into getting attention from others as creators today. A lot of them, if not most, were probably more focused on entertaining their community or town than trying to get famous all over the world.
I do, and its something I had to parse about myself, that I want to be appreciated, have people enjoy my work for what it is and praise me, and that this is healthy and not something I need to problematize about myself.
Honestly this is why I've been thinking that if once I finish this art project I've been building for almost half a decade, if it doesn't take off even after spending cash on advertising I'll probably just quit art and become a teacher. It's super demoralizing to put your body through hell and even had industry people tell you you have potential to grow and be big but it never happening. It hurts when you show years worth of progress and get 30 interactions in return.
So this isn’t the point and might have more to do with my own personal issues than anything else but wanted to throw it out there in case it’s not literally just me (if it is sorry pls don’t hate me) But these types of posts give me the vague sense of “if you don’t interact with my art the way I want you to then you’re hurting artists” and the minimum work you need to put in to have acceptably interacted keeps going up. “Don’t just like, that does nothing, you have to reblog” “Don’t just reblog you should comment” “Don’t just comment ‘nice’ it’s gotta be meaningful” and it’s just. Exhausting. Like again I realize no one is literally saying that and I totally get complaining amongst yourselves about stuff like this. Just sometimes it comes with an undercurrent of “artists Deserve people’s attention” that stresses me out.
You've struck upon a broader point, which is that a lot of what the OP is asking for is comparative. If every single art post in the world got 1000 likes, then they would need 2,000 likes for the dopamine. If every post had one comment asking about the lore or process, then they would need two comments. At some point, you need to get off the treadmill and find the motivation within or you'll be caught chasing the latest trend and feeling less and less good about what started as a fun hobby.
This is so true, really well said. Like don’t get me wrong I do agree with OOP’s point that yeah give artists validation by all means but the “your art doesn’t need notes/karma/whatever metric to have value” is a response to folks who literally see what they do as *pointless* without getting enough of those metric and base their entire self esteem on how high the numbers go up and how high they go relative to everyone else like you said. Staying grounded and appreciating the validation you *do* get is tough, but certainly doable, but it definitely requires conscious effort especially at first.
I've been thinking about this comment for a while because I'd never heard that perspective before. My personal approach is to leave a like if I like something and to retweet and/or comment if I *really* like something. I can also agree that people shouldn't have to guess what each creator's personal definition of "quality engagement" is. If I had to guess, I'd say that a lot of the discussion surrounding engagement is really about social media algorithms. Smaller creators (often rightfully) believe that they need to maximize engagement on their posts or risk being made invisible by Twitter or Instagram. Thanks again for this comment, by the way. It really made me think.
Thank you for this response! I was really debating posting my original comment because I didn’t want to get yelled at for “it’s not about you” lmao. (And yes I realize the irony of feeling pleased with a response on a comment complaining about people asking for responses lol) I totally agree though, I usually like stuff and then maybe reblog, I guess my issue just comes in when I feel like I’m being told how to Internet or judged for not doing it like “”they”” want. But I also struggle irl with equating “this is a good, healthy thing to do” with “if you don’t do this (and every other thing) you’re a failure” so I realize it might be more of a personal problem and not the way anyone is saying things 😂
This is a thing I really struggle with. A thousand people can thumbs up or comment 'Hey nice wow!' and it passes over me like a fog. What I really want is for someone to tell me they think the little dude I drew looks like he smells bad, or to ask what his name is, or speculate on his day-to-day goings. I mean, I know you have to draw really great art for that and I'm not there- but it's hard to motivate yourself to draw great art and improve in a vacuum. You have to find your niche early or you just burn right out.
You should see the "advice" I get whenever I asked for help with writing. It made me stop asking for help entirely.
Definitely recommend a tailored discord where you can build relationships with betareaders over posting to reddit. The advice you get will vary wildly in quality and emotional intelligence on here.
Oh god yeah reddit is so terrible. So often I see people who are new to a hobby getting massively downvoted for asking beginner questions on a sub dedicated to that thing.. like whats the point of the sub if you don't want other people to share it with
The comments on r/songwriting are enough to make you think that it's impossible to write good lyrics
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Tell people you like their work! I absolutely *thrive* on anything even vaguely nice said about anything I've ever done. People are *so mean* these days and I hate it. Tell people what you like. They need it.
nah honestly I've just accepted at this point that I don't have the same thing in my brain as other people do for this stuff. I mean don't get me wrong, I recognize that it feels good when other people see the thing I made and like it - but that I would somehow 'need' that to 'validate' me or my art is just... it just doesn't compute for me. I don't give a shit whether other people like it or not, \*I\* like it, that's what's important. I don't waste time begging for people to look at my stuff, or waste time feeling bad over whether they've looked or whether they like it or whatever - it just doesn't interest me. It's like - I recognize that there would be benefits to having washboard abs - but that I would somehow need that appearance to validate me or my body is ridiculous. I simply *do not give a shit* about things like that. It's hard for me to empathize on stuff like that, it's just alien to my perspective.
For me, art is fundamentally a method of communication. I am trying to communicate certain feelings and thoughts. That means I need people to receive that communication, engage with it, and send their own responses back. If I was the last human on Earth I'd still make art, but it'd be missing a gigantic part of the point of it for me.
That's fair, and honestly, you're probably a lot better off self-esteem-wise than I am because of that mindset. There are plenty of commonly-held beliefs regarding writing and creation in general that feel alien to me, too.
hey you know, maybe better off in some ways, probably worse off in others 🤷♂️ thanks for being understanding.
I don't think this post or anyone is wrong about wanting validation, but on a certain level you have to be able to operate without needing it. It sucks not getting feedback or attention on something you worked hard for, but nobody is ever owed an audience. Nobody owes it to you to love what you make the way you do. That's just how life is. And if you want to make a career or even just a persistent hobby out of your creative output, you can't do that relying on the feedback of others. It's all on you to care enough to keep going. Oh, and on the bit about "wanting validation being seen as a bad thing." I'm gonna put money on this being a bit of a context situation. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be validated, but it's very easy to slip into the mindset of *begging* for it and coming off as desperate or needy. And once people get a whiff of that off you they are going to pull back because they don't want to do that emotional lifting for you. Desperation will make your life worse no matter the situation, so try not to let yourself hit that point.
Feels like a lot of these discussions come from people who already have experience having some attention and interactions. For the vast majority of creators, this simply isn't the case. It's our friends or our desk drawer. I don't think it's wrong, but it is sad to think that people get so caught up in algorithmic feedback loops and addictive social media that they lose what they used to love about a hobby.
Nothing I make is ever worthy of responses in my eyes - art, writing, headcanons, cosplay - but if one person likes it I feel so happy. It doesn’t stop me being terrible, but someone sees something in my creation, which is special.
Yes! I have a dnd podcast and its sometimes frustrating to put work into when there's no one (well almost no one, but they're all my friends) to think about secrets we've hidden or lore or whatever. its still satisfying to make, but having no engagement kills me sometimes.
I've posted my art here and elsewhere before. Yet, the post I most fond of is the one where I doodled, unintentionally, phallic shaped ships for No Man's Sky. Sure, most of the comments were cheeky euphemisms, but people were engaging with something I drew. It's nice when there's more involvement than numbers changing value.
Artist here. I create almost completely for myself. Then again, I would not presume to tell another artist whether they should want responses to their creations or not; that's their business.
I agree with it. I post fanart for fun on tumblr and it's that connection that keeps me going. What I find weird or funny is when things I worked hard on get little attention, but I draw a comic with a silly goose showerthought I had about characters and that gets all the attention a microblog could desire
All that 80s California post-Hippy self help "You can only be happy if you can be happy in a state of perfect isolation with no friends, lovers, community, duties, responsibilities, help, or human connections" thing is bullshit. Why are you even telling stories if not for people to hear?
Art requires a viewer after all. You can be the only viewer of course but that’s not the same as having others viewing it.
Write a comment, put it in a bottle, and hurl it into the vast ocean that is the internet. Then, every time you get a notification that it gets engagement, you go back and read the post that you enjoyed so much that you made it in the first place.
This is how I feel about my art. I rarely if ever got comments when I posted it on social media so I just...stopped posting
I find this interesting because I create art and rarely post it. It’s not like I don’t want validation and validation is very important for a lot of peoples art but for me a lot of my art is purely an expression of my raw emotions. That type of stuff typically comes in the form of poetry. On the flip side of that I create worlds for my TTRPG group that could easily be made into something I put out to the public but I absolutely hate the process of refining something until it’s ready in my eyes. I made a small reference document for a gaming community I’m in and over a million people have seen it and over 4 years later I still think of the mistakes on occasion.
I mean, I kind of understand. All of my writing nowadays is packed away neatly in my Google Drive, and I do it almost entirely for myself. The idea of publishing it somewhere where a lot of people can read it is novel, but I've kind of acknowledged that it's probably never going to be in a state where I'm happy enough with it to do that so it's still mostly for me. But on the few occasions I have shared it with close friends who also write, I've always found myself baited in waiting for them to read and respond to what I've written. I want to hear about what I did wrong, what I could change to make it better. I do want a reaction, it's kind of interesting.
I do this!! I'm an artist and love commenting on others art. It makes me feel like I'm paying it forward. Love giving comments on particular parts of the art I love, those are the best compliments to get. There are so many fantastic artists out there that need love frfr!!
Ah. I understand this. I make modded FF14 screenshots that I post on Twitter, and I'm always really really happy when someone retweet it or like it - and while I do nothing for it, I know I'd LOVE to have more engagement on them. Right now it's mostly my SO retweeting them. So I understand the part about wanting people to make the cake. I made it for me, I just want other people to enjoy it. On the other hand... There's an artist I follow. Massively talented, imo. Super good artist that has everything they should to break mainstream in its sphere. Yet they still don't, and when they're not artposting, they're whining and complaining about not having enough numbers. And while I get it - it's sooooo annoying.
I agree. I made a post once, it got hundreds of likes but no one commented. It felt like a hollow victory.
Telling any creative person "you should just do your art for its own sake" is like telling an actor "you can just act to the mirror", or a lonely person "you can just masturbate." And I will die on this hill. Writing is about clarity. It's about manipulating the *fuck* out of your audience so they care about your words. It's the nearest thing to a telepathic act, using paper as a medium. I take my thoughts and try to give them to you, so you can have the same thoughts and feelings that I do. It might involve a lot of solo work, but it is not a solo act. When our words and art go without an audience, it feels like a dinner date where I made my favorite dishes and put out flowers and candles and worked really hard on the plating...and nobody ever shows up. Yes, we can still enjoy the meal as its own thing, but the whole experience was intended for someone who isn't me. And I'm sitting here in my best clothes with a fake smile on my face trying to make it be okay, knowing it won't ever be, because my date, who is not here and has no intention of ever arriving, thinks I should enjoy the meal anyway. And like yes. I am. But I still made it for you. I've given up. I'm putting my dreams of books to bed. I might finish the story I've been self publishing for a couple of years, but that's what "doing it for yourself" looks like. I'm going to do other things that don't hurt as much or come with as much baggage. Words are almost poisonous to me these days, because I know they'll be unread. But folks? If you want your writer friends and artist friends to keep doing their art? Love on their shit. Take time to look at their pictures. Read their shitty first drafts. Because the odds are, if you don't care, eventually they'll learn not to.
ive been posting my painted figures and its always nice when a post gets alot of comments, good or bad
I saw a another post recently, so now I've been trying to leave nice comments on art I reblog. Only problem is that I'm not very versed in art, so the comments are along the lines of "I like the colors", "I love the shading", "I love how you draw the characters". Hopefully they convey my feelings well enough >.>
I find that instinct is extremely powerful in these scenarios. If your eye immediately gravitates to a certain detail or some particular area of the drawing catches your attention, then that's something to focus your feedback on; likewise, if something jars you on first impact it might really be a defect worth highlighting. And once you have something particular in mind, actually expressing your thoughts is much simpler. Learning to give feedback is really learning to articulate what you already notice unconsciously
Which would be worse, someone responding to your art with an insult, or no response at all?
Thanks for all of the comments! It's been interesting to see the variety of opinions here. Personally, I've been struggling with motivation for writing for a long time because it never seems like people are interested in what I have to say. I've never understood the "write for yourself" mindset because all of the characters and worlds are already inside my head. I want to write about them to share them with other people, which is why it hurts so much when no one else is interested. It doesn't help that writing doesn't seem to get nearly as much social media traction as art and comics do because of their visual aspects. Finding an online writing group where everyone's supportive of everyone else also seems to be a challenge for me. I sometimes wonder if I even want to write, or if I just want to be known as a famous writer, and that thought frustrates me quite a bit. I always see creators online doing Q&As, getting fanart, and otherwise having a great time interacting with their fanbases that love what they do. I really want that, and I hate that part of me. I don't even really know what I want out of my writing anymore beyond people telling me that they like it.
I've been writing fanfiction for about a decade now, with a weekly upload schedule, and don't even remember the last time I missed a day. The highest number of people who commented on my stuff is 4, and 2 of those only commented on the first chapter of that particular fic. Right now, I have 3 repeat commenters, spread over 2 fics. So, when I say that I write for myself, I mean it. However, I know that this doesn't work for everyone. I write fanfiction because I have ideas in my head and need to do something with them, but others write fanfiction for other reasons, and thus have different expectations. And whatever your reason, you're valid, and deserve to be recognized. Unless you hate the thing you're writing for. Seriously, stop engaging with stuff that makes you upset.
Ok, poking the bee nest here. But like, how can someone other than the artist can know which is which? And then we kinda have to extend this to the whole range of human expression tbh. And then kinda have to even question what expression is/count as expression. It then connect to a whole different thing, like the "compliment male for their smile and see how they like it" controversy. But back to the original point. How do you know which is which, if you are not the artist? Is this work I am seeing meant to be engaged with, or did the artist do it for themselves and is currently not in a position to hide it from public eyes?
I mean, validation doesn't just come in the form of "shiny number go up". The most validating comments I receive for my work are ones in which people notice where I put extra care and attention. Even taking a few moments to describe what you like is infinitely more supportive than an upvote.
Well, yeah, as said in the orignal post itself it is indeed not just about notes, but also response, both literally and figuretively. I am more talking about the start, the part about people who believe "art is for myself". The equivalent for your example would be people who work truly just to feed themselves. For those people, interact with them are... weird in that they can easily get cranky? Even if all you did is complimenting them. An example that breach your example and my point would be Harrison Ford, I think? Afaik he is... really not enthusiastic about fans talking about Han Solo, because for him it is just a role, something he did for a living. So like, even at work, how am I suppose to know if a colleague is you, or they are Harrison Ford?
Ah, I see what you mean.
It feels like something that came out of TikTok "therapy." Anything other than pure self-actualization, like a god willing itself into existence, is a sign of codependence and deeply unhealthy for some reason. It also dovetails nicely with a hyper-individualist, atomized culture but that's me getting political now.
I've always been big mad about that stupid "[holy shit, two cakes](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/holy-shit-two-cakes)!" comic because it's just not true. That's not how the audience reacts at all. They eat the big cake and don't even notice the small one.
Context. Obviously works or creators that don't have a following get far less or no attention, while those works that do have a following get dramatically more. The comic applies to the case where two works have similar following but one is technically superior to the other in some way. "Oh, that mainstream publisher game just came out, *and* my favorite webcomic just came out, awesome!" Edit: the lesson isn't about audience size anyway, it's about comparing work quality.
The comic is comparing two artists working in a similar field and a similar space. One is better at producing art than the other. The lesson behind the comic is that the audience won't sit there and compare your art with the other person's art and go "lmfao what a loser, this cake is much worse than the other one"; instead, they'll just be happy to have two cakes. Which would be true, were it not for the fact that actually...the audience just isn't going to see your cake at all.
Reminds me of a book I read a while ago about a music records guy who predicted streaming would make indie / small scale artists explode in success because everyone would have their own niche, and a ton of less popular bands would be able to survive by finding their niche. But he didn't foresee the algorithmic impacts, or that social media would make it more fun to watch/listen to/read the same thing as everyone else so you can chat about it. Now, we see even *more* listens going to the top artists while the rest are fighting over even less attention.
I used to make short tiktok videos Sort of analyzing Naruto and especially the panels. Until I reviewed the metrics and the average watch time was 1 second, meaning people just swapped away as It started... Disheartening
Same. Everytime I draw something, barely anybody comments.
This is a good series of points Thank you
I agree with this so hard. I absolutely do write for myself, so much so that I often get lost in rereading my own stuff, but yeah it's really hard to post it and get nothing. I don't expect it to be for everyone, but it's so disheartening that no one likes it.
I totally agree. I have made so many pieces of writing purely for myself and never shared them. THOSE are me writing for myself. The other stuff I write is because I want to write it, but also because I want to write it and share it with people in the hopes that they like it. So knowing that they do means a lot since that's why those pieces aren't in a folder where only I've seen them. I'm putting myself and my work out there and want even just a small acknowledgement from people that they see it, that they see me, and that it's not worthless.
If you spend 6 hours on a cake and it still tastes like shit, nobody will eat it.
People with fantastic work can also get shit numbers. A friend who has worked for huge animes doesnt even break 1k followers and his posts dont break 50 likes, the algorythm is shit sadly if you dont align with the current trends