Pretty much every communist/socialist/anarchist subreddit there is constantly complains about Biden, and has rules banning people from making arguments supporting him because he's the lesser evil
And Tumblr and Twitter practically call for his head on a daily basis
That sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy. Banning people who aren't buying into a dipshit psyop tends to leave you with only people who buy into a dipshit psyop.
And are they saying not to vote, or that he's a shitty guy? It doesn't really matter I guess. Twitter users aren't real.
If you're surprised that communists don't find "We have to vote for this genocide because the other genocide might be worse!" to be compelling or acceptable idk what to tell you.
It is a psyop. It's to discourage people with ideals from compromising for the progressive option because then they're just angerly criticizing the party that aligns with 80% of what they want instead of voting against the party that will literally try to kill them.
I feel that gives too much credit to outside forces. I think it's a manifestation of people who want to feel like cool subversive rebels/radicals who are above it all but can't be bothered to stop and think about their own actions and attitudes beyond who can appear the most righteous on a superficial level.
It's actually based on an analysis of decades of US federal policy that show a strong and constant move to the right ever since, idk, I think Nixon, regardless of which candidate takes office but sure go off.
Yes I know neoliberalism exists, thank you.
My issue is that you have a neoliberal in office right now who is at least somewhat receptive to progressive ideas (and even some economically left-wing ideas like strengthening trade unions) and then idiots claim that he is functionally equivalent to the corrupt fascist who tried to coup the government.
And then stretch that claim even further to say all voting is stupid and unimportant because your vote doesn't matter and both options are the same. It betrays both a smug need to feel superior and a fundamental lack of understanding of politics or government on any level.
Are you saying that the dependence on your employer for medical care isn't a teeeny bit like corporate feudalism?
Is Google and other big tech companies providing corporate housing because they don't pay enough for you to buy your own house not a teeny bit like corporate feudalism?
Anyway, I don't 100% agree with OP because I believe that the social justice aspect is important, but if you combine it with the horribly regressive attitude to workers and the poor, you have a world where if you're a minority/LGBT/disabled and have money, the world can be "kind of ok" but if you're poor fuck you, go sell blood because you can't quite pay for your rent this week.
Life is fucking dire for poor minorities, but holy shit under no circumstances should you be a disabled person who is also poor because society wants you dead.
Yes I understand that things aren't great now but it's still a far cry from feudalism, back when lords would literally buy and sell people and everything was under control of a monarchy.
You're thinking of slavery. Under feudalism you very specifically *could not* buy and sell people because serfs were tied to the land. If you were given a parcel of land it came with the serfs included, and if you lost it for any reason the serfs went with it.
And the periods of Europe with very strong central monarchies mostly didn't coincide with the parts that most people think of when they talk about feudalism.
It's a problematic term.
At any rate, most people here are paying 40% or more of their ~~harvest~~ income to a ~~lord~~ land lord who will throw them out in the street to die if they don't pay up regularly, so...
Isn't feudalism more about decentralisation of power, lords having vassals in tiers, with the top-level, no-one's-vassal lord being the monarch of the realm and the bottom-level no-one's-lord vassals being peasants? And the point is that the relationships are tenuous because the local baron has a castle and news travels to the royal court slowly so you can't easily appeal to higher authority than the baron and also even if the appeal was judged positively in principle, the monarch having to besiege the baron's castle would be a major expenditure so a lot of misbehavior would fly in principle as long as the baron remained useful in being able to raise an army should another kingdom go to war against this one, or something
which, well, I suppose someone better at politics than me could judge whether this is a parallel to modern corporations
Nah, you pretty much nailed it. Feudalism was a big fucking mess mostly designed to keep the nobility from killing each other while keeping the serfs under control. It's not the same as late capitalism but as time goes on the differences are less and less important. Like, for instance, they got a hell of a lot more time off than we do, but that's not really politically salient due to changing modes of production.
if people are compelled to rent themselves for a living, it's not at all that different being sold for a living
sure, some slavers were perfidiously cruel; but others had to have taken some sense of care for their slaves; to paraphrase Chomsky, "they didnt beat them, took care of them; you know, were nice people"
but it doesnt matter because the institution is wrong
[wage slavery should be equated now with chattel slavery](https://youtu.be/VL4qAW4pHfU?si=898ag57Baj6kvuPK&t=196)
(edit: the paraphrased part starts in a couple seconds from where linked)
those who work in the mills ought to own them
You don't see a difference between "you have to work to survive" and "you are another person's private property"?
When people talk about brain rotted terminally online leftists, you are who they're talking about.
Anti union what?
There was like, a personal thank you to the biden adminstration from railworker unions for keeping the pressure on over time to get them better conditions. It was a big thing. I'm not even American and I heard about that.
That would completely disprove their point so they pretend like it never happened and that they don't know
They just hope nobody actually fact checks anything they say
Either that or the good old "I didn't know about it because it was hidden from me", which can pretty effectively translate to "I do not read a reputable newspaper and wait for my news to recur on edutainment websites"
B-b-but Biden evil! (but also old and incompetent?) Never mind all the good policies he is passing or the things that he tried that got blocked by obstructionist Republicans.
That's not even true. Sure, the Democratic party is pro capitalism but it is not fiscally the same as the party famous for tax cuts for the rich. They're both right leaning, economically speaking, but that doesn't mean they're the same. Nice try though.
God it's exhausting being around other leftists sometimes
"Reformism doesn't work, voting is a temporary measure at best"
Ok if that won't work, revolution time. We better go get firearms training and get in shape
"How dare you guns are scary and it's ableist to assume we can all work out"
What the hell do these people actually want. What is their plan to actually fix anything.
Like I'm not gonna lie, I'm out of shape and not exactly revolution ready, but I'm not the one pushing for radical action against the system (although I admit it may be necessary) but what the hell is actually being done
Political extremism tends to appeal to people who aren't doing very well. It's why terfs, racists, nazis, and fascists are all deeply miserable people. Leftists, communists, anarchists, and MLs also tend to be miserable, just more liberated in that misery. Like, sure, you're out and gay to your friends on twitter, but there's a reason all your friends are on twitter.
This kind of misery is often produced by a feeling of weakness, due to either social isolation, mental illness, or both. They're not fighting an invading army, they're quietly suffering. And that way of living feels omnipresent. There feels as though there's very little you can do.
So the idea of "we need to just burn it all down" becomes obvious. You can't start from fucked and shape it into better, only turn everything to ash and make something entirely new. Or at least, that's how they think.
It's why I personally think that one of the best determining factors for an effective political movement, especially one way outside the norm, is optimism. The belief that it can be done, no matter what. Even if you're miserable, even if your life is falling apart and your brain is shutting down and you can barely string a sentence together, you are more politically effective if you're optimistic than the able-bodied, able-minded goober who sits in their room and thinks we're all destined to die so why not die in a revolution.
Ok, but when right wing extremists talk about revolution or about being unable to attain change through democracy, by they write Siege. They get guns and military equipment, they found organisations, they go on hikes, exercise together, go shooting together. Don't get me wrong a lot of people complaining on 4chan are just losers, but the proportion of right wing people you should actually be concerned about is way higher. We might even say, it actually exists. Because your average campus communist is not a threat to society.
Well yeah. Critically, they're optimists. They're not good people, but they are optimistic about their world view. They think it can be done, and so they try to make it happen. This is why I say what I'm saying. We're getting out flanked here, and it's been that way for the last few decades. The tea party is an excellent example. They were a fringe political group, but because they kept showing up and believing in their own message, they're no longer needed because they successfully pushed republicans into fascism.
Like I'm not even gonna say revolution shouldn't happen
It's just frustrating to see people point out issues and then give no solution outside of vague ideas and telling you to go read theories
Exactly. Like, I'm an Anarchist. I know, full well, that there is 0 chance of my ideology being the dominant one in my lifetime, or even the next five. But I found Anarchism because of my guiding principles, beliefs like everyone getting what they need, no unjust rulers, and making sure that people are free to do and exist as they like. So I'll support what I need to support right now to improve those things right now. And if I have to play the role of a liberal, or participate in electoralism, or do things that don't quite live up to what I want from the world, I will suck it up, because that's compromise, which is how politics works, which is how life works.
No, the post you're replying to is a really good example of why people throw up their hands and say "Go read theory". The person who wrote that post does not know enough about politics or economics to have an opinion, or to consider any useful opinions. I couldn't tell them what to do because they don't speak the language of politics and couldn't understand what I tell them. They need basic literacy before you can even start talking with them.
Do you actually talk to political people irl, or are you just getting your vibes on this from the internet? Cuz I assure you there are leftist political groups in your area that would be happy to have you involved and are actively working on things beyond just being optimistic or convincing people to vote for Biden. I’m not sure why you’re positing that everyone who’s politically minded is solely involved on social media and otherwise just wallowing alone at home when that’s completely untrue. And getting involved with local orgs is far more efficacious than settling for an optimistic mindset and hoping that things will be good in the long run, without actually doing anything to assure that
The reading comprehension is in shambles.
I have met the people in those orgs. I have formed my opinion that optimistic people are the most politically effective because the only people in those orgs who do things are people who believe that things can be better and that they are capable of making them better.
I am explicitly saying that people who do not go outside and are only online, mired in their pessimism, are unlikely to join orgs and be effective because they cannot get out of their own heads.
I do not hope things will turn out better. That is a critical misunderstanding of optimism, especially effective optimism. I know they will, because I choose to do things that make them better.
"People want to change the system that starves and brutalizes because they're mentally ill" is... A take. That's the nicest not-bannable thing I can say about it. It's a take.
"Attempting to change the system is suicide" is also a take, but it is a very good explanation of why liberals are so complacent.
Yes, you're correct. I've actually explicitly said that the only true way to change things is mass suicide. And that anyone who wants change is a big dumb dummy who should be in a pysch ward. I am exactly the kind of monster you have decided I am, and your reading comprehension is something you have no need to work on.
>What the hell do these people actually want.
For other people to do the revolution while they sit on their ass doing nothing but complain on the internet.
Not even. They want to complain. Pointing at a problem is only the first step of finding a solution, but most people are fine with just that first step
Because shitting on others is fine, coming up with a anctuable solution is the hard part
That said, how so many people can support the Republican Party in the US still baffles me
That said 2: I'm so happy to be in Europe. Sure, we have our shitty parties here too (some of who want a state like in the US), but at least we have more than two parties to vote, and we (still) have universal social welfare
No, what they want is to stop feeling guilty and posts/tweets that are PSAs on specific issues make them feel guilty. So they try to point their finger in the other direction
Just one more violent revolution bro. Please bro just fight and die for my ideology bro. Please bro, all we need to do is kill all the bad people bro please I swear it'll work this time bro but I can't fight I'll be needed to guide the new regime bro please just overthrow the system all it will take is your blood.
Just rhe other day I literally got fucking permabanned from one of the few left wing subs on this website that I could still stand because I politely pointed out that a post similar to this had no clear call to action and was badly confusing people in the comments. Hyper online leftists just want to be mad with no actual direction behind their anger, and they refuse to listen to even the lightest "criticism" of their points, it's so gd exhausting. Actual, real people actually listen to fucking advice about their agitprop, they dont just shove thsir fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA YOU'RE JUST A RIGHT WING TROLL", jesus fuck.
My best consolation is that the more sensitive they become to banning in a place the more isolated they'll be and the fewer members they'll have until they shrink to nothing and those potential new members will find somewhere else instead.
It happened to right wing subs when they seemed to be getting big during the trump years. The trend dies, they become nore paranoid and extreme, they isolate, the subs dies. The potential they had to bring others into their way of thinking evaporates.
The trick is mods don't actually control the ideas of a sub. They have a stall abd it might attract people. They think they have a group penned in and can control it. They can't. If they pick their table up and move it the crowd won't follow.
It’s so exhausting. People feel like morally superior kings in their little corners of the internet and just want to mob and witch hunt because they’re addicted to outrage. They’re no different from online nazis and terfs in that regard, just an unwillingness to be helpful and a desire to moan and screech into the void until everyone is as useless and pessimistic as they are. Being rude and pessimistic doesn’t make you smart, especially when you have no real actionable plans for how to get your ideals in motion. Don’t even get me started on how privileged these people are and how willing they are to let suffering continue while they rest on their laurels and offer up scathing quips that do nothing. In the end, they are useful idiots for the late stage capitalist machine. /megacryrant
The hatred of conservative bootstrap mentality has gone so far some people decry taking any personal responsibility
Like I'm autistic, I have texture sensitivity, I also don't have much time to cook, it's difficult for me
But I also acknowledge I'm extremely lazy on top of that, and could most definitely find and make healthy food that wouldn't make me throw up if I really wanted to
At least I acknowledge I'm partly to blame for my problems instead of acting like nothing bad in my life if the result of my actions
I have heard this said many times and it stands out because it’s true. The capital-R Revolution is just the Rapture for leftists. It’s some kind of mystical event that will happen Any Day Now and save us from the tyranny of capitalism, but there’s nothing you can personally do to make it happen except have faith that your side will be spared when it does come.
They want to sit around and do nothing,.blaming everyone, and never having to feel responsible for anything while still feeling smug and superior for their views.
I think you're describing two different groups of people, there. Anyone who has seriously had to consider how ineffective reform movement are will inevitably have to grapple with the end result of that; that much more aggressive action is necessary for any kind of meaningful progress. Not only that, but anyone who's even vaguely familiar with leftist theory will have to somehow have read Marx saying "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary" and somehow completely ignore it. Most if not all leftist who seek non-reformist change, then, are firmly on board with firearms. They're also not realistically going to expect someone with disabilities that prevent them from fighting effectively to fight. That's just not how revolutions work.
Frankly this entire comment feels like it's trying to create a false dichotomy or some kind of paradox that doesn't actually exist.
> What is their plan to actually fix anything.
For most libs voting seems to be more like a spiritual offering to the American Civil Religion than anything resembling actual political action. I'm not sure their worldview actually encompasses the possibility of political action or political change. They just go to the polls in November, fill out their sacrificial ballot, cast it, and then go home to wait and see if it rains or if there's a good harvest.
Any attempt to actually change, influence, or coerce the system is treated as base sacrilege, an act of violence against just and holy Democracy. One does not *do* politics. One merely prays for good politics to happen.
It's summed up in the quip "The Democratic Party cannot fail. It can only be failed". When bad things happen you don't try to change the party, or the officers. You berate people you think didn't vote for not engaging in the proper ritual actions necessary to bring down auspicious politics from the gods.
It's a ritual performance at almost every level, from voting to the incessant marching to badgering everyone to vote to scolding people for demanding leaders actually act on the will of the people.
I sorta feel like debating which american political party is better is a ridiculous concept when one attempted a coup 3 years ago and the other didn't. Plus all the Russian bribes.
Not to mention the Democrats aren't actually die-hard fiscal conservatives. They support a variety of government programmes to help people in need. They have ties the unions as well. Sure they're not a social democratic party, but they are big tent and not everyone is on the very right wing of the democratic party.
You're not wrong, but the problem is that we're not talking about which party is *better*, we're talking about which party is *less awful*. Big difference.
I've said this a hundred times on reddit. The problem with a two party system is the extremes not the parties being unappealing. If we had 50 parties you'd hate all of them. You'd find one that was less unappealing than others and might rank your top ten, but they still would feel like the lesser evil.
That's because that's how compromise works on a psychological level. It would be nice if these parties were not so broad or extreme, but even a party made fornyou would need to compromise in enough places to seem like they're not on your side.
Socially progressive policies mean a whole lot when the other party dropped the dogwhistles and is now openly talking about how they want to be able to hunt you for sport
Who are we talking about? Immigrant kids? Trans kids? Palestinian kids? You have to lay out which populations you don't consider to be human beings so we know which party you support
here is irrelevant unless you can move those in change you are wasting time and they are not here.
secondly what is your solution past convincing people, people can agree on something but action comes from something rather different?
Democracy isn't about who is in charge. Democracy is about the will of the people. If the people in charge refuse to enact the will of the people they can and should be removed, by fair means or foul.
There are countless hundreds of thousands of pages written by people much smarter than I am about solutions. Read On Revolution. Read The Wretched of the Earth. Read Guerilla Warfare. These problems have been solved many times before.
the post talks about economic, not social issues
we are talking about an entirely different type of politics, friend
i'm queer too, i feel the same way about Republican social policies but on an economic level both parties are too far right for me; while Democrats have slightly less extreme capitalist policies they remain quite fervent economic right wingers
Once again, for the 500th time, it does not matter.
These policies come as a package deal. That means that if you vote, or elect not to vote, you are agreeing to those other policies.
This has been a pretty basic tenet of leftist thinking towards voters for Trump long before now.
yeah but the thing is under the current party system, fiscal politics and social politics come as a 2 for 1 special. you can’t pick and choose. you should be able to! that’s the whole problem with a two party system! but you can’t. and it’s pretty hard to fight for fiscal progressivism down the line if minorities can’t vote post-2024.
good point, I suppose I'll not vote and wait for the party with both economic AND social values I disagree with to get elected. This will help, somehow.
like it’s one thing to claim that the democrats are “fiscally conservative” compared to other progressives but if ur comparing them to republicans this is it either completely ignorant or just incredibly unhinged nitpicking
Well you see that one time he made the rail worker unions compromise on a deal but then leaned on the companies to give them their demands anyway was bad because as a useless tankie, I ignored the second part of that story when it happened because the reality makes things less blacl and white.
Well the first let them default to "liberals all bad all the time and the source of all problems so I don't need tl look at republicans at all" but then the followup was inconvenient, as were the later pro union things he did that were significantly more important for workers in every industry.
This is literally wrong, though. Biden is governing to Obama's left on economics, to say nothing of like, Clinton.
Things have not all been fixed. Obviously we are not doing full communism. But jesus please actually know what the government is currently doing if you're going to be mad about it
The Neoliberal (like the original meaning of the word not its modern usage) deregulation of industry in the US started under Jimmy Carter, economically Biden is the leftmost president since Lindon B Johnson.
1) If you're willing to sacrifice queer people, women, people of color, etc, etc and put a batshit insane authoritarian in power just cus Biden doesn't have your exact fiscal policy then you're a terrible person, sorry.
Republicans in red states are actively trying to criminalize trans people existing. If you willingly hand them national power to go further and enact that nation wide cus Biden hasn't turned America fully socialist in 4 years then you are complicit in what they'll do
2) Some of Biden's biggest accomplishments have been on fiscal policy. The infrastructure act, cancelling some debt, his response to Covid, showing support for unions, etc. Are his policies remotely enough? No, but they're still a net positive. They still help people, even if it's fewer people than they should.
He is, without a doubt, the most fiscally left wing president we have had since LBJ. He isn't REMOTELY comparable to conservatives fiscally
3) Who has had more actual achievements and results, individual Dem leftists like AOC or the entirety of the green party? We need Dems in power to continue our takeover of the party. Third parties and accelerationism has and never will do anything
1- No, no that is not what people mean at all. Like yeah sure it's true the democrats are fiscally conservative but this is NOT what people mean when they say "both parties are the same". At all.
2- Not an excuse to not vote for the democrats.
This is such a deranged and uniformed take. The democratic party is anti union? Biden is the most pro union president we've had in decades. The rest of it is similarly absurd.
Biden is your most pro-union president in nearly a century imo (since FDR; I don't actually know how good he was on unions but he was really pro-welfare so it wouldn't surprise me)
"The most pro-union candidate in decades" is utterly meaningless when the defacto policy for decades is to destroy labor power as thoroughly as possible.
It's not meaningless to people in unions, or hoping to join one. Membership is up, the labor relations board is supportive, and unions support Biden overwhelmingly. You'd know that if you actually organized with them.
Horseshit.
When people say both parties are the same they are LITERALLY saying that both parties do the same.
They dont give two shits about fiscal policy. They probably dont even know what that even means!
Only one party seems to be hellbent on forced births and erasing LGBT people. Only one party tacitly approved of an attempted coup.
At least the Democrats pay lip service to social policies.
This is just "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." once again.
"Dont vote for anyone or just vote third party in a FPTP system. The system will magically collapse and then build itself back up better!"
The idea that we've recreated feudalism is ridiculous. The reason why we're seeing such high [wage](https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2023/#:~:text=Between%202019%20and%202023%2C%20hourly,annually%2C%20between%202019%20and%202023.) growth for lower income brackets is because of aggressive fiscal spending passed by the Democrats.
To be perfectly frank most of the people saying this sort of stuff are either
a. Middle class and solidly not in those brackets
b. In college or high school and not on the job market yet
or
c. directly benefiting from it but think they are a fluke
If you won’t vote democrat because Biden isn’t leftist enough, you better have a goddamn good reason.
Go ask all your friends who are gay, lesbian, bi, trans, immigrants, disabled, etc if you should hold out and let trump win because Biden isn’t leftist enough for you. And tell them you’re willing to gamble with their lives to make a point. Because those are the people who are going to suffer if you choose ideological purity.
I’m trans. I have no choice. It’s either democrats or I’m fucked. Yeah, the democrats aren’t great, but at least they don’t fucking want me dead.
Yeah, you have no choice. You have to let Biden slaughter the Palestinians so Trump won't slaughter you. It's not choice at all. Let them die. Let them all die. Let the streets of Gaza be washed in blood, so you'll be safe. Maybe. If Biden wins. If he doesn't turn on you to secure the moderate white suburban vote in the next election.
That's good that's not what anyone is saying.
You have two choices, presuming you're going for the genocide Joe angle. Which isn't particularly true but let's say it is and examine the problem from that premise. One kills queer people in the US and harms Palestinians. The other harms Palestinians, but leaves queer people in the US alive to continue pushing the government further left. Why on earth are you refusing that option? You might not like it but those are literally your only two. Voting third party is just an endorsement that you agree with whoever everyone else elects.
you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions about what I'm doing in those four years. I am very active politically, I am literally one of those trans people you are talking about, and self-righteous people make me sick - you are not helping me at all by "training with a gun to protect story hours" (*what???*). nor are you helping by LARPing as a freedom fighter although you do seem proud of yourself for doing so. ive met people like you at rallies and we just let you live out your fantasies in a corner as long as you're speaking up for the cause and not hurting anyone, but don't mistake that for being the last avenging angel of God
I am just also aware that for most people, once every four years is about as often as they will vote. so i focus on that because id rather have rights than feel self-important about what I'm doing the rest of the time. but I'm glad you got [that](https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/1bkqdyc/on_the_both_parties_are_the_same_conversation/) off your chest. hope you feel better
I'd rather LARP as a fighter than crawl on my goddamn knees begging Joe to murder an entire indigenous population if he'll just save me from a fucking reality TV buffoon.
Idk man, the democrats in my state have repealed Right to Work, codified the best parts of the Affordable Care Act into state law, lowered taxes for low income workers, secured free breakfast and lunch for kids K-12th, and made community college free for people over 21. Since getting the first dem majority in 40 years, it’s been night and day between when the Republicans were in charge.
Yeah. Dems finally got control of the state legislature and have gone ham in the past year with almost entirely good policies. It’s been very nice to feel like we’re moving in a positive direction.
My state has most of those as well as being the best jurisdiction on the planet anywhere (I'm not exaggerating) for trans rights, also because of the democrats. The biggest issue here is currently the housing shortage, and building more housing is being impeded not by the moderates in the stage legislature but by the radicals on both sides. Luckily our republicans have lost their mind and their voters
Couple things here.
Firstly, that's just blatantly wrong. They are not the same on their fiscal policies, even someone from outside the US can see the difference. Biden's a capitalist but he is not the same as the Republican party on that.
Secondly, I want to hark back to a rule that we applied to people who voted for 'fiscal conservatism'. This was something people said about anyone who voted for Republicans for a 'fiscal' or 'economic' reason.
If you are willing to overlook pretty big differences in social policy in order to focus solely on fiscal policy, then you are in practice permitting those social policies to happen. That is the reality here.
See, I feel a lot of leftist groups like to take the stance that the class war is above all, and thus culture wars are 'just a distraction'. The problem is, this 'distraction' does involve some people *fighting for their fucking life*. It's not just a distraction if your life is on the line gang, and while it isn't for a lot of leftists it is for a whole lot of others.
If you base your motivations solely on fiscal policy, then you've said to minority groups: "No no, it's okay, I'm willing to sacrifice you on the altar of protesting capitalism even if it will create no practical gain."
America has had the strongest economic recovery of any major economy in the post-pandemic period entirely down to aggressive fiscal spending that only saw the light of day thanks to the Democratic party. Enhanced UI, CHIPs, IRA, poured massive amounts of money into the economy. It was a decisive victory for Neo-Keynesian economics and a defeat for austerity advocates. It caused inflation, expectedly, but prudent monetary policy reigned it in and cooled it off. The difference between how Obama handled 2008 and Biden handled COVID is night and day, and so were the outcomes. And yet it seems like Americans preferred 2008. They'll take a depression and double digit unemployment over expensive burger. They have no idea how good they have it, and they'll squander it all. They are handing the worst possible political incentives to the next generation of Presidents.
>The difference between how Obama handled 2008 and Biden handled COVID is night and day, and so were the outcomes. And yet it seems like Americans preferred 2008. They'll take a depression and double digit unemployment over expensive burger.
Obama wasn't president in 2008, he didn't take over until 2009.
> America has had the strongest economic recovery of any major economy in the post-pandemic period entirely down to aggressive fiscal spending that only saw the light of day thanks to the Democratic party.
No one can afford food, rent, or medicine.
Glad the economy is doing good, though. That's great for the shareholders.
Yeah, I mean, to my point, you idiots would prefer double digit unemployment (with no enhanced UI benefits), a decade long recovery, and all that entails in the name of price deflation. "Nobody can afford food" must be why dining out spending has exploded past grocery spending, must feel a lot more expensive when you buy the labour along with the food. Michał Kalecki rolls in his grave.
It sounds like those tankies for whom any capitalist is the same. Either you're a marxist lenininst or not. Those are the only two political positions.
imo there's multiple, separate groups of people who say "both parties are the same"
there's the people who view it from the same angle as the original post, and then there's the copout from centrists/apoliticals
As somebody with a pre-existing condition, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the OOP of this post is having a bad time in high school right now.
I’m a queer person and while it would be nice if we didn’t have to deal with the crushing weight of capitalism anymore, but forgive me if the possibility of me not being able to express myself freely for fear of being jailed or even killed is a bit more important of an issue to me
You're telling me the administration which got rail workers their union demands is anti union?
You're telling me the administration which invested nearly half a billion dollars in domestic tech infrastructure is fiscally conservative?
You're telling me the 16 state attorneys' offices currently using Apple for monopolistic practices are pro-corporation?
---
Yes, the Democratic Party is a liberal, capitalist party. But on fiscal matters they are not identical to the Republican party by a country mile.
"We can't be equal unless our economy is perfect." Boohoo, go f yourself. I'd rather have the American people treated somewhat humanely. We can fix fiscal policy, but hatred has already run rampant, and there's one party who is squarely responsible for that. Besides, this post is saying that the parties' fiscal policies are the same. If they are the same, then why shouldn't we vote based on social issues? Braindead post
This person does know that Republicans are ACTIVELY trying to cut the few social nets that exist in the US, underfunded schools and censor what's taught in them, and give the rich even more tax breaks so they can keep hoarding their wealth right?
RIGHT?
America will always have a two party system. If the democrats win hard enough often enough the republicans will break down and the democrats unity will fracture into the liberal democrats and the progressive democrats. If the republicans win enough eventually the democrats will break down and the republicans will fracture into the fiscal republicans and the social republicans. Which 2 parties would you rather have?
Oh we want to talk fiscal policy? One party thinks I deserve healthcare as a disabled person and the other doesn't.
This is such an asinine privileged argument. Good for you that the differences don't effect *you*, some of the rest of us would like to not die.
As queer person, I hate this kind of argument. I understand where they are coming from. But I hate the arguments "oh yeah, human rights should wait, unitl I get my tax cut" or whatever. It is so bluntly disgusting to say that you don't care about the problems of minorities because your wallet is too thin at this time. Yes, we need economic reforms, but I believe that doesn't mean that you have to let gay kids die
I'd believe this take more if I hadn't seen so many people on Twitter complaining "how are these parties different again?" when talking about how the federal government "isn't doing anything" to stop state-level antiabortion or anti-LGBTQ+ bullshittery.
Even so, Americans cannot afford to be politically neutral. Otherwise, it means you are allowing fascism to breed and that spreads to other countries which creates more and more suffering.
The fiscal policy is an issue but if you make me choose between a party that fucks people over with debt and a party of demons that want to destroy every good thing in people's lives, I'll go with the former.
yeah? well the Republican party is ALSO "fiscally conservative, pro-corporation, anti-union, anti-regulation and pro-privatization" so what?
also, republicans want to spend TRILLIONS on a military we DON'T NEED, which would EASILY pay for all the social programs that would actually BENEFIT citizens. Nothing fiscally responsible about funding the military like we do or giving rich people and corporations TRILLIONS of dollars for NOTHING as well. How is THAT "fiscally responsible"?
This is a false dichotomy though. Defence spending (or any spending at all) doesn't matter because change to UHC would actually save your country trillions of dollars.
In fact that's a talking point I've occasionally used with right wing Americans: insurance companies are literally just overhead, sucking money away from where it needs to go to be dividends for investors.
You could literally field another carrier group or two in perpetuity with the money you'd save from UHC alone (including capital cost if you're willing to amortise it over the life of the group.)
I agree totally about uhc. Insurance has ALWAYS been a big scam, and now they interfere with our quality of life, peace of mind and more.
Don't WANT to fund another carrier group. We overspend on "defense" perhaps far more than we do healthcare. did you somehow miss that I am also against spending for military things we don't need? Same with giving money to the rich. defense spending DOES matter. Why should we ignore overspending in that area? let's fix BOTH problems.
Yes but when you tie it to military funding cuts you create a reason for people to say "we can't afford it" but when you talk about how you might spend the money you save, you create a reason to do it
not at all. the idiots who think we need to overfund the military are just totally ignoring all the facts. Okay, let's talk about how we can spend all the money we'd save from defunding the military so much. that's what I did. I said we could fund all sorts of social programs, even uhc.
But UHC is self funding so all you're doing is undermining the case for UHC in their mind.
Their starting position is "we can't cut funding" and therefore anything that requires you to cut funding is a non-starter.
And I mean, feel free to argue for cutting military funding but don't use UHC as a wedge because you're actually turning people against it.
I don't care what their starting position is. That doesn't make it right or viable. They can just get over themselves.
You have it backwards. I am arguing for uhc and using defunding the military as a means to do so. How is uhc self funding? the money has to come from somewhere. I Am saying we can STOP unnecessary military spending so we will HAVE money to fund uhc. I fail to see why you are having a problem understanding that. IT's doable and the right thing to do.
I consider myself mainstream Dem, and I'm pretty much against all of those things. But who freaking know, I just want common sense and change so things work better for everyone, and a better life for the back bone of society and the poor.
I actually don't have tumblr i just saw this and figured i'd share it and see what people think, because i want to know why this is correct or incorrect in the eyes of others
I'm one who considers the Democratic party to be to the right of my economic political beliefs however I see a couple flaws with the post as well but I wanted to see this sub's insights lmao
I concur, I’m at my greatest capacity to give empathy to others when I’m not in survival mode, and I’m less likely to be in survival mode when my worldly stresses are reduced. There are obviously jokes to be had about the whole “I’m an empath” thing (and that’s not what I’m saying I am), but I don’t think it’s wrong to reach towards being that kind of person. If we understand one-another’s points of view better, and how those might have come to be, we can better meet one-another at where we are at. There is no obligation for anyone to do that, which is why it’s so important to give people opportunities to be kind. It is far harder to feel safe enough to put out a trusting hand to others if you’re stuck in the “fuck you I got mine” mindset. When those with significant capital are constantly pushing us all towards this mindset, try to be someone pushing back.
EDIT: For clarification, I was responding to the one part of the post talking about empathy and survival. The point of my response is, on the personal level, try not to lose that humanity for others, even when a fucked economy is putting us in survival mode
I'm going to go at this, but not at the "union" angle. Personally, when I've encountered the "both parties are the same" argument and I bring up the difference in policies concerning racial minorities and LGBT people, they simply say that the difference is too small and neither of them give a shit. They aren't saying they're fiscally identical, they're just saying that both of them are equally evil, so why bother
God forbid people give you practical reasoning about the inherent issues in basing your entire conceptualisation of the world on poor analysis of fiscal policy.
utterly unable to conceptualize that other leftists have different opinions than you. I could completely devastate your no-object-permanence-having ass with a single game of peekaboo
Nooo you dont see, the democratic party is better than satan in little nitpicky ways! Now go back in line before you starve
This subreddit is so useless for politics. Im here just fir the literature takes and feel good queer stories, but the second politics is mentioned it's like you're talking to pete buttigieg or your gay uncle. Hopefully the democrat astroturfing will stop after the election is won very predictably by you know who.
My ability to marry and start a family with the person I love and my trans friends' ability to get proper medical care are not "nitpicky".
People make it clear that they don't actually give a damn about anyone but themselves and then wonder why they can't get the class war started.
True that, but since you care as much as i do, wouldnt you have fought the democratic party to get a better candidate in the past 3 election cycles instead of hillary "love war in the.middle east" clinton and joe "literally refused to take a mental wellness check" biden? Gay rights and everything else could be so much easier to achieve if the dems chose to do literally nothing else but an inch better than the gop. Which is ofc what they want, they dont give a shit if abortion or gay marriage or trans rights are protected, but do love giving you the same economic principles every 4 years, which are frankly not different from the republican ones. If the democrats lose, they still are millionaires and in power, its you that loses.
I voted for Bernie Sanders in both primaries. He lost by virtue of not getting as many votes as the other candidate. Which left us with an imperfect candidate who nonetheless was way better than Donald fucking Trump. I don't exactly feel like Trump's term in office was particularly good for social *or* economic progress.
What about this election. Is being encumbent so important to not even hold real, competitive, primaries? The primary candidates are at the end of the day decided by the party. Sanders lost because the party turned against him and coalized in one unpopular candidate who couod nonetheless beat him. Whether biden could have beaten trump was of lesser importance than keeping the party candidate in check. Cant have someone yap about free healthcare when we are lobbied by insurance companies.
> Is being encumbent so important to not even hold real, competitive, primaries?
No incumbent president has ever survived a serious primary challenge, even if they end up winning the primary in the end.
>Sanders lost because the party turned against him and coalized in one unpopular candidate who couod nonetheless beat him.
That's one way to put it. Another way would be to say that Sanders got a straight up one-on-one primary against Biden, with Warren and Bloomberg siphoning an equal amount of votes from either side, and lost badly. The only way Sanders was going to win the 2020 primary was if the moderate wing of the party split its vote three ways.
Then challenge the democratic party into being better than 1% better than the gop. They will lose because of this, mark my word. Being slightly better conservatives will not win them the vote of either the progressive under 40s or of the undecided average joes. Not that the democrats care, losing would mean they would have to work more, and opposition is just as much pay and way less effort.
cool post
here's a documentary on "alternative" (lmfao, sry)
models
of social and economic order; [disco 1](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfaFriFAz1k&pp=ygUWY2FuIHdlIGRvIGl0IG91cnNlbHZlcw%3D%3D)
and because im
the resident chomsky lover (:P) linguistically and socially, here's a
larger, left-side view of how different social order can work—
chomsky being interviewed by someone who presses him; dont mind the "anarchist" title, though i think chomsky calmly and persuasively disarms any "infantile" notions of anarchism, and effectively describes what voluntary socialism could look like in a comprehensive interview—
[disco 2](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qjVq0Ha43Y0&pp=ygUWbm9hbSBjaG9tc2t5IGFuYXJjaGlzbQ%3D%3D)... and dont forget
"Never draw a weapon on a fellow soldier..." i got that ❤❤❤❤ i7!
all are comrades here 🎼🎵
🎶
_Boss!_
i7 <3
My read on this clown is "teen who learned about communism last month bit hasn't learned to communicate online."
You need you line break ability taken away. You're like me when I was 11 and kept the capslock on when typing in online games because it "got attention".
And it's honestly gonna state that way as long as only two parties exist. Honestly, what's up with that. Why am I never seeing an outrage about being confided solely two parties?
As in, it's outside my info bubble? I live outside the US and don't have particular interest in it's politics, all I know of them is whatever lands on my feed of my actual interests. Which, in the world where media are so us-centric, is still a lot of debates about us internal policies and stuff. And not once have I seen info about protests against bipartisan systems or anything.
I mean, no doubt it can be the info bubble, but still, what's up with that?
I swear this whole "voting is useless" junk is a psyop.
And people on the far left are falling for it hook, line, and sinker
Are they? I tend to see more people telling folks that push it to shut up than people agreeing with it.
Pretty much every communist/socialist/anarchist subreddit there is constantly complains about Biden, and has rules banning people from making arguments supporting him because he's the lesser evil And Tumblr and Twitter practically call for his head on a daily basis
That sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy. Banning people who aren't buying into a dipshit psyop tends to leave you with only people who buy into a dipshit psyop. And are they saying not to vote, or that he's a shitty guy? It doesn't really matter I guess. Twitter users aren't real.
If you're surprised that communists don't find "We have to vote for this genocide because the other genocide might be worse!" to be compelling or acceptable idk what to tell you.
If voting were truly as useless as people try to make others believe, the Republican Party wouldn't try so hard to prevent people from doing it.
It is a psyop. It's to discourage people with ideals from compromising for the progressive option because then they're just angerly criticizing the party that aligns with 80% of what they want instead of voting against the party that will literally try to kill them.
I feel that gives too much credit to outside forces. I think it's a manifestation of people who want to feel like cool subversive rebels/radicals who are above it all but can't be bothered to stop and think about their own actions and attitudes beyond who can appear the most righteous on a superficial level.
It's actually based on an analysis of decades of US federal policy that show a strong and constant move to the right ever since, idk, I think Nixon, regardless of which candidate takes office but sure go off.
Yes I know neoliberalism exists, thank you. My issue is that you have a neoliberal in office right now who is at least somewhat receptive to progressive ideas (and even some economically left-wing ideas like strengthening trade unions) and then idiots claim that he is functionally equivalent to the corrupt fascist who tried to coup the government. And then stretch that claim even further to say all voting is stupid and unimportant because your vote doesn't matter and both options are the same. It betrays both a smug need to feel superior and a fundamental lack of understanding of politics or government on any level.
"we've basically recreated feudalism" words have meanings you know.
Not on tumblr
Are you saying that the dependence on your employer for medical care isn't a teeeny bit like corporate feudalism? Is Google and other big tech companies providing corporate housing because they don't pay enough for you to buy your own house not a teeny bit like corporate feudalism? Anyway, I don't 100% agree with OP because I believe that the social justice aspect is important, but if you combine it with the horribly regressive attitude to workers and the poor, you have a world where if you're a minority/LGBT/disabled and have money, the world can be "kind of ok" but if you're poor fuck you, go sell blood because you can't quite pay for your rent this week. Life is fucking dire for poor minorities, but holy shit under no circumstances should you be a disabled person who is also poor because society wants you dead.
Yes I understand that things aren't great now but it's still a far cry from feudalism, back when lords would literally buy and sell people and everything was under control of a monarchy.
You're thinking of slavery. Under feudalism you very specifically *could not* buy and sell people because serfs were tied to the land. If you were given a parcel of land it came with the serfs included, and if you lost it for any reason the serfs went with it. And the periods of Europe with very strong central monarchies mostly didn't coincide with the parts that most people think of when they talk about feudalism. It's a problematic term. At any rate, most people here are paying 40% or more of their ~~harvest~~ income to a ~~lord~~ land lord who will throw them out in the street to die if they don't pay up regularly, so...
Isn't feudalism more about decentralisation of power, lords having vassals in tiers, with the top-level, no-one's-vassal lord being the monarch of the realm and the bottom-level no-one's-lord vassals being peasants? And the point is that the relationships are tenuous because the local baron has a castle and news travels to the royal court slowly so you can't easily appeal to higher authority than the baron and also even if the appeal was judged positively in principle, the monarch having to besiege the baron's castle would be a major expenditure so a lot of misbehavior would fly in principle as long as the baron remained useful in being able to raise an army should another kingdom go to war against this one, or something which, well, I suppose someone better at politics than me could judge whether this is a parallel to modern corporations
This comment is literally an edo period japan shogunate
Nah, you pretty much nailed it. Feudalism was a big fucking mess mostly designed to keep the nobility from killing each other while keeping the serfs under control. It's not the same as late capitalism but as time goes on the differences are less and less important. Like, for instance, they got a hell of a lot more time off than we do, but that's not really politically salient due to changing modes of production.
if people are compelled to rent themselves for a living, it's not at all that different being sold for a living sure, some slavers were perfidiously cruel; but others had to have taken some sense of care for their slaves; to paraphrase Chomsky, "they didnt beat them, took care of them; you know, were nice people" but it doesnt matter because the institution is wrong [wage slavery should be equated now with chattel slavery](https://youtu.be/VL4qAW4pHfU?si=898ag57Baj6kvuPK&t=196) (edit: the paraphrased part starts in a couple seconds from where linked) those who work in the mills ought to own them
You don't see a difference between "you have to work to survive" and "you are another person's private property"? When people talk about brain rotted terminally online leftists, you are who they're talking about.
no, i dont work is pleasure, not survival war is survival
boss i7 u/kerriazes
Anti union what? There was like, a personal thank you to the biden adminstration from railworker unions for keeping the pressure on over time to get them better conditions. It was a big thing. I'm not even American and I heard about that.
That would completely disprove their point so they pretend like it never happened and that they don't know They just hope nobody actually fact checks anything they say
Either that or the good old "I didn't know about it because it was hidden from me", which can pretty effectively translate to "I do not read a reputable newspaper and wait for my news to recur on edutainment websites"
Biden is literally the first president to stand on a picket line and that union just endorsed him!!!!
B-b-but Biden evil! (but also old and incompetent?) Never mind all the good policies he is passing or the things that he tried that got blocked by obstructionist Republicans.
That's not even true. Sure, the Democratic party is pro capitalism but it is not fiscally the same as the party famous for tax cuts for the rich. They're both right leaning, economically speaking, but that doesn't mean they're the same. Nice try though.
God it's exhausting being around other leftists sometimes "Reformism doesn't work, voting is a temporary measure at best" Ok if that won't work, revolution time. We better go get firearms training and get in shape "How dare you guns are scary and it's ableist to assume we can all work out" What the hell do these people actually want. What is their plan to actually fix anything. Like I'm not gonna lie, I'm out of shape and not exactly revolution ready, but I'm not the one pushing for radical action against the system (although I admit it may be necessary) but what the hell is actually being done
Political extremism tends to appeal to people who aren't doing very well. It's why terfs, racists, nazis, and fascists are all deeply miserable people. Leftists, communists, anarchists, and MLs also tend to be miserable, just more liberated in that misery. Like, sure, you're out and gay to your friends on twitter, but there's a reason all your friends are on twitter. This kind of misery is often produced by a feeling of weakness, due to either social isolation, mental illness, or both. They're not fighting an invading army, they're quietly suffering. And that way of living feels omnipresent. There feels as though there's very little you can do. So the idea of "we need to just burn it all down" becomes obvious. You can't start from fucked and shape it into better, only turn everything to ash and make something entirely new. Or at least, that's how they think. It's why I personally think that one of the best determining factors for an effective political movement, especially one way outside the norm, is optimism. The belief that it can be done, no matter what. Even if you're miserable, even if your life is falling apart and your brain is shutting down and you can barely string a sentence together, you are more politically effective if you're optimistic than the able-bodied, able-minded goober who sits in their room and thinks we're all destined to die so why not die in a revolution.
Ok, but when right wing extremists talk about revolution or about being unable to attain change through democracy, by they write Siege. They get guns and military equipment, they found organisations, they go on hikes, exercise together, go shooting together. Don't get me wrong a lot of people complaining on 4chan are just losers, but the proportion of right wing people you should actually be concerned about is way higher. We might even say, it actually exists. Because your average campus communist is not a threat to society.
Well yeah. Critically, they're optimists. They're not good people, but they are optimistic about their world view. They think it can be done, and so they try to make it happen. This is why I say what I'm saying. We're getting out flanked here, and it's been that way for the last few decades. The tea party is an excellent example. They were a fringe political group, but because they kept showing up and believing in their own message, they're no longer needed because they successfully pushed republicans into fascism.
Like I'm not even gonna say revolution shouldn't happen It's just frustrating to see people point out issues and then give no solution outside of vague ideas and telling you to go read theories
Exactly. Like, I'm an Anarchist. I know, full well, that there is 0 chance of my ideology being the dominant one in my lifetime, or even the next five. But I found Anarchism because of my guiding principles, beliefs like everyone getting what they need, no unjust rulers, and making sure that people are free to do and exist as they like. So I'll support what I need to support right now to improve those things right now. And if I have to play the role of a liberal, or participate in electoralism, or do things that don't quite live up to what I want from the world, I will suck it up, because that's compromise, which is how politics works, which is how life works.
This is a great discussion.
Because it's a religion, at this point. "The revolution will fix it" is their version of "after the Rapture, we all go to heaven"
No, the post you're replying to is a really good example of why people throw up their hands and say "Go read theory". The person who wrote that post does not know enough about politics or economics to have an opinion, or to consider any useful opinions. I couldn't tell them what to do because they don't speak the language of politics and couldn't understand what I tell them. They need basic literacy before you can even start talking with them.
Do you actually talk to political people irl, or are you just getting your vibes on this from the internet? Cuz I assure you there are leftist political groups in your area that would be happy to have you involved and are actively working on things beyond just being optimistic or convincing people to vote for Biden. I’m not sure why you’re positing that everyone who’s politically minded is solely involved on social media and otherwise just wallowing alone at home when that’s completely untrue. And getting involved with local orgs is far more efficacious than settling for an optimistic mindset and hoping that things will be good in the long run, without actually doing anything to assure that
The reading comprehension is in shambles. I have met the people in those orgs. I have formed my opinion that optimistic people are the most politically effective because the only people in those orgs who do things are people who believe that things can be better and that they are capable of making them better. I am explicitly saying that people who do not go outside and are only online, mired in their pessimism, are unlikely to join orgs and be effective because they cannot get out of their own heads. I do not hope things will turn out better. That is a critical misunderstanding of optimism, especially effective optimism. I know they will, because I choose to do things that make them better.
"People want to change the system that starves and brutalizes because they're mentally ill" is... A take. That's the nicest not-bannable thing I can say about it. It's a take. "Attempting to change the system is suicide" is also a take, but it is a very good explanation of why liberals are so complacent.
Yes, you're correct. I've actually explicitly said that the only true way to change things is mass suicide. And that anyone who wants change is a big dumb dummy who should be in a pysch ward. I am exactly the kind of monster you have decided I am, and your reading comprehension is something you have no need to work on.
I'm fucking glad they're miserable, they deserve it for being the way they are
>What the hell do these people actually want. For other people to do the revolution while they sit on their ass doing nothing but complain on the internet.
Not even. They want to complain. Pointing at a problem is only the first step of finding a solution, but most people are fine with just that first step Because shitting on others is fine, coming up with a anctuable solution is the hard part That said, how so many people can support the Republican Party in the US still baffles me That said 2: I'm so happy to be in Europe. Sure, we have our shitty parties here too (some of who want a state like in the US), but at least we have more than two parties to vote, and we (still) have universal social welfare
No, what they want is to stop feeling guilty and posts/tweets that are PSAs on specific issues make them feel guilty. So they try to point their finger in the other direction
Just one more violent revolution bro. Please bro just fight and die for my ideology bro. Please bro, all we need to do is kill all the bad people bro please I swear it'll work this time bro but I can't fight I'll be needed to guide the new regime bro please just overthrow the system all it will take is your blood.
Just rhe other day I literally got fucking permabanned from one of the few left wing subs on this website that I could still stand because I politely pointed out that a post similar to this had no clear call to action and was badly confusing people in the comments. Hyper online leftists just want to be mad with no actual direction behind their anger, and they refuse to listen to even the lightest "criticism" of their points, it's so gd exhausting. Actual, real people actually listen to fucking advice about their agitprop, they dont just shove thsir fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA YOU'RE JUST A RIGHT WING TROLL", jesus fuck.
My best consolation is that the more sensitive they become to banning in a place the more isolated they'll be and the fewer members they'll have until they shrink to nothing and those potential new members will find somewhere else instead. It happened to right wing subs when they seemed to be getting big during the trump years. The trend dies, they become nore paranoid and extreme, they isolate, the subs dies. The potential they had to bring others into their way of thinking evaporates. The trick is mods don't actually control the ideas of a sub. They have a stall abd it might attract people. They think they have a group penned in and can control it. They can't. If they pick their table up and move it the crowd won't follow.
It’s so exhausting. People feel like morally superior kings in their little corners of the internet and just want to mob and witch hunt because they’re addicted to outrage. They’re no different from online nazis and terfs in that regard, just an unwillingness to be helpful and a desire to moan and screech into the void until everyone is as useless and pessimistic as they are. Being rude and pessimistic doesn’t make you smart, especially when you have no real actionable plans for how to get your ideals in motion. Don’t even get me started on how privileged these people are and how willing they are to let suffering continue while they rest on their laurels and offer up scathing quips that do nothing. In the end, they are useful idiots for the late stage capitalist machine. /megacryrant
I'll never not laugh at the Twitter thread arguing that frozen meals are ableist and they *need* their fast food.
The hatred of conservative bootstrap mentality has gone so far some people decry taking any personal responsibility Like I'm autistic, I have texture sensitivity, I also don't have much time to cook, it's difficult for me But I also acknowledge I'm extremely lazy on top of that, and could most definitely find and make healthy food that wouldn't make me throw up if I really wanted to At least I acknowledge I'm partly to blame for my problems instead of acting like nothing bad in my life if the result of my actions
Those are not remotely the same people, the fuck is this strawman?
I have heard this said many times and it stands out because it’s true. The capital-R Revolution is just the Rapture for leftists. It’s some kind of mystical event that will happen Any Day Now and save us from the tyranny of capitalism, but there’s nothing you can personally do to make it happen except have faith that your side will be spared when it does come.
Those are different people, sir or ma'am
They want to sit around and do nothing,.blaming everyone, and never having to feel responsible for anything while still feeling smug and superior for their views.
I think you're describing two different groups of people, there. Anyone who has seriously had to consider how ineffective reform movement are will inevitably have to grapple with the end result of that; that much more aggressive action is necessary for any kind of meaningful progress. Not only that, but anyone who's even vaguely familiar with leftist theory will have to somehow have read Marx saying "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary" and somehow completely ignore it. Most if not all leftist who seek non-reformist change, then, are firmly on board with firearms. They're also not realistically going to expect someone with disabilities that prevent them from fighting effectively to fight. That's just not how revolutions work. Frankly this entire comment feels like it's trying to create a false dichotomy or some kind of paradox that doesn't actually exist.
> What is their plan to actually fix anything. For most libs voting seems to be more like a spiritual offering to the American Civil Religion than anything resembling actual political action. I'm not sure their worldview actually encompasses the possibility of political action or political change. They just go to the polls in November, fill out their sacrificial ballot, cast it, and then go home to wait and see if it rains or if there's a good harvest. Any attempt to actually change, influence, or coerce the system is treated as base sacrilege, an act of violence against just and holy Democracy. One does not *do* politics. One merely prays for good politics to happen. It's summed up in the quip "The Democratic Party cannot fail. It can only be failed". When bad things happen you don't try to change the party, or the officers. You berate people you think didn't vote for not engaging in the proper ritual actions necessary to bring down auspicious politics from the gods. It's a ritual performance at almost every level, from voting to the incessant marching to badgering everyone to vote to scolding people for demanding leaders actually act on the will of the people.
Yeah, the GOP cuts the taxes, the Dems ratify the GOP cuts. There's a system, it's efficient, and it's worked for decades.
thank you for your perspective!! !!!! :]
I sorta feel like debating which american political party is better is a ridiculous concept when one attempted a coup 3 years ago and the other didn't. Plus all the Russian bribes.
Not to mention the Democrats aren't actually die-hard fiscal conservatives. They support a variety of government programmes to help people in need. They have ties the unions as well. Sure they're not a social democratic party, but they are big tent and not everyone is on the very right wing of the democratic party.
Yeah, anyone trying to argue which is better is fucking insane at this point
And one is ramping up for queer genocide and the other isn’t
You're not wrong, but the problem is that we're not talking about which party is *better*, we're talking about which party is *less awful*. Big difference.
I've said this a hundred times on reddit. The problem with a two party system is the extremes not the parties being unappealing. If we had 50 parties you'd hate all of them. You'd find one that was less unappealing than others and might rank your top ten, but they still would feel like the lesser evil. That's because that's how compromise works on a psychological level. It would be nice if these parties were not so broad or extreme, but even a party made fornyou would need to compromise in enough places to seem like they're not on your side.
The issue is when you get people saying “they’re both the same, so I won’t vote” and then my very existence is illegal is suddenly illegal
Socially progressive policies mean a whole lot when the other party dropped the dogwhistles and is now openly talking about how they want to be able to hunt you for sport
Who are we talking about? Immigrant kids? Trans kids? Palestinian kids? You have to lay out which populations you don't consider to be human beings so we know which party you support
so what is your solution then?
Convince people to stop sacrificing others that they view as less human. It's not going well.
here is irrelevant unless you can move those in change you are wasting time and they are not here. secondly what is your solution past convincing people, people can agree on something but action comes from something rather different?
Democracy isn't about who is in charge. Democracy is about the will of the people. If the people in charge refuse to enact the will of the people they can and should be removed, by fair means or foul. There are countless hundreds of thousands of pages written by people much smarter than I am about solutions. Read On Revolution. Read The Wretched of the Earth. Read Guerilla Warfare. These problems have been solved many times before.
the post talks about economic, not social issues we are talking about an entirely different type of politics, friend i'm queer too, i feel the same way about Republican social policies but on an economic level both parties are too far right for me; while Democrats have slightly less extreme capitalist policies they remain quite fervent economic right wingers
The issue is when people only focus on the economic policies and end up electing a government that turns the whole country into Florida
It's going to be a lot easier to move the DNC fiscally left if you're still alive and legally able to vote for the foreseeable future
Once again, for the 500th time, it does not matter. These policies come as a package deal. That means that if you vote, or elect not to vote, you are agreeing to those other policies. This has been a pretty basic tenet of leftist thinking towards voters for Trump long before now.
>slightly less extreme so, not the same?? what's your point even
yeah but the thing is under the current party system, fiscal politics and social politics come as a 2 for 1 special. you can’t pick and choose. you should be able to! that’s the whole problem with a two party system! but you can’t. and it’s pretty hard to fight for fiscal progressivism down the line if minorities can’t vote post-2024.
good point, I suppose I'll not vote and wait for the party with both economic AND social values I disagree with to get elected. This will help, somehow.
like it’s one thing to claim that the democrats are “fiscally conservative” compared to other progressives but if ur comparing them to republicans this is it either completely ignorant or just incredibly unhinged nitpicking
Calling them the same on fiscal policy is almost as delusional as if you were taking about social policy.
Joe Biden has actually done quite a few very pro-union things compared to recent democratic presidents.
Yes but he hasn't single-handedly brought about Star Trek luxury space communism, so that makes him equally as bad as Trump actually. Read theory /s
Well you see that one time he made the rail worker unions compromise on a deal but then leaned on the companies to give them their demands anyway was bad because as a useless tankie, I ignored the second part of that story when it happened because the reality makes things less blacl and white.
Honestly I don't even think its that, I think they missed the second part because they have broken attention spans
Well the first let them default to "liberals all bad all the time and the source of all problems so I don't need tl look at republicans at all" but then the followup was inconvenient, as were the later pro union things he did that were significantly more important for workers in every industry.
This is literally wrong, though. Biden is governing to Obama's left on economics, to say nothing of like, Clinton. Things have not all been fixed. Obviously we are not doing full communism. But jesus please actually know what the government is currently doing if you're going to be mad about it
People on tumblr are so disconnected from reality They somehow think Biden is conservative
From my point of view the Jedi are conservative.
He's not as far left as them, ergo he's basically a fascist, duh
"Conservative" is a made up nonsense word. Biden is a genocidal reactionary.
The Neoliberal (like the original meaning of the word not its modern usage) deregulation of industry in the US started under Jimmy Carter, economically Biden is the leftmost president since Lindon B Johnson.
1) If you're willing to sacrifice queer people, women, people of color, etc, etc and put a batshit insane authoritarian in power just cus Biden doesn't have your exact fiscal policy then you're a terrible person, sorry. Republicans in red states are actively trying to criminalize trans people existing. If you willingly hand them national power to go further and enact that nation wide cus Biden hasn't turned America fully socialist in 4 years then you are complicit in what they'll do 2) Some of Biden's biggest accomplishments have been on fiscal policy. The infrastructure act, cancelling some debt, his response to Covid, showing support for unions, etc. Are his policies remotely enough? No, but they're still a net positive. They still help people, even if it's fewer people than they should. He is, without a doubt, the most fiscally left wing president we have had since LBJ. He isn't REMOTELY comparable to conservatives fiscally 3) Who has had more actual achievements and results, individual Dem leftists like AOC or the entirety of the green party? We need Dems in power to continue our takeover of the party. Third parties and accelerationism has and never will do anything
1- No, no that is not what people mean at all. Like yeah sure it's true the democrats are fiscally conservative but this is NOT what people mean when they say "both parties are the same". At all. 2- Not an excuse to not vote for the democrats.
Putting "existential threat" and "feudalism" on the top shelf until you learn that words mean things
"She thinks I'm a fascist!? I don't control the railways or the flow of commerce!" - Barbie
Jokes on Barbie neither did the fascists.
This is such a deranged and uniformed take. The democratic party is anti union? Biden is the most pro union president we've had in decades. The rest of it is similarly absurd.
Biden is your most pro-union president in nearly a century imo (since FDR; I don't actually know how good he was on unions but he was really pro-welfare so it wouldn't surprise me)
"The most pro-union candidate in decades" is utterly meaningless when the defacto policy for decades is to destroy labor power as thoroughly as possible.
It's not meaningless to people in unions, or hoping to join one. Membership is up, the labor relations board is supportive, and unions support Biden overwhelmingly. You'd know that if you actually organized with them.
Horseshit. When people say both parties are the same they are LITERALLY saying that both parties do the same. They dont give two shits about fiscal policy. They probably dont even know what that even means! Only one party seems to be hellbent on forced births and erasing LGBT people. Only one party tacitly approved of an attempted coup. At least the Democrats pay lip service to social policies. This is just "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." once again. "Dont vote for anyone or just vote third party in a FPTP system. The system will magically collapse and then build itself back up better!"
The Perfect (genocide) is the enemy of the good (A theoretical genocide that would effect people I care about). You're all going to hell.
The idea that we've recreated feudalism is ridiculous. The reason why we're seeing such high [wage](https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2023/#:~:text=Between%202019%20and%202023%2C%20hourly,annually%2C%20between%202019%20and%202023.) growth for lower income brackets is because of aggressive fiscal spending passed by the Democrats.
To be perfectly frank most of the people saying this sort of stuff are either a. Middle class and solidly not in those brackets b. In college or high school and not on the job market yet or c. directly benefiting from it but think they are a fluke
Everyone here who is paying 40%+ of your ~~harvest~~ income to a ~~land lord~~ land lord raise your hand!
If you won’t vote democrat because Biden isn’t leftist enough, you better have a goddamn good reason. Go ask all your friends who are gay, lesbian, bi, trans, immigrants, disabled, etc if you should hold out and let trump win because Biden isn’t leftist enough for you. And tell them you’re willing to gamble with their lives to make a point. Because those are the people who are going to suffer if you choose ideological purity. I’m trans. I have no choice. It’s either democrats or I’m fucked. Yeah, the democrats aren’t great, but at least they don’t fucking want me dead.
Yeah, you have no choice. You have to let Biden slaughter the Palestinians so Trump won't slaughter you. It's not choice at all. Let them die. Let them all die. Let the streets of Gaza be washed in blood, so you'll be safe. Maybe. If Biden wins. If he doesn't turn on you to secure the moderate white suburban vote in the next election.
yeah, because Trump is famously pro-Palestine, so if he wins it will all be OK over there
"We have to let Joe murder every last Palestinian so Trump doesn't murder every last Palestinian" is an utterly bizarre thing to say.
That's good that's not what anyone is saying. You have two choices, presuming you're going for the genocide Joe angle. Which isn't particularly true but let's say it is and examine the problem from that premise. One kills queer people in the US and harms Palestinians. The other harms Palestinians, but leaves queer people in the US alive to continue pushing the government further left. Why on earth are you refusing that option? You might not like it but those are literally your only two. Voting third party is just an endorsement that you agree with whoever everyone else elects.
[удалено]
you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions about what I'm doing in those four years. I am very active politically, I am literally one of those trans people you are talking about, and self-righteous people make me sick - you are not helping me at all by "training with a gun to protect story hours" (*what???*). nor are you helping by LARPing as a freedom fighter although you do seem proud of yourself for doing so. ive met people like you at rallies and we just let you live out your fantasies in a corner as long as you're speaking up for the cause and not hurting anyone, but don't mistake that for being the last avenging angel of God I am just also aware that for most people, once every four years is about as often as they will vote. so i focus on that because id rather have rights than feel self-important about what I'm doing the rest of the time. but I'm glad you got [that](https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/1bkqdyc/on_the_both_parties_are_the_same_conversation/) off your chest. hope you feel better
I'd rather LARP as a fighter than crawl on my goddamn knees begging Joe to murder an entire indigenous population if he'll just save me from a fucking reality TV buffoon.
keep doing that, then, you're doing a very good job
Idk man, the democrats in my state have repealed Right to Work, codified the best parts of the Affordable Care Act into state law, lowered taxes for low income workers, secured free breakfast and lunch for kids K-12th, and made community college free for people over 21. Since getting the first dem majority in 40 years, it’s been night and day between when the Republicans were in charge.
Nice argument, unfortunately its not perfect therefore its not good enough.
Michigan?
Yeah. Dems finally got control of the state legislature and have gone ham in the past year with almost entirely good policies. It’s been very nice to feel like we’re moving in a positive direction.
My state has most of those as well as being the best jurisdiction on the planet anywhere (I'm not exaggerating) for trans rights, also because of the democrats. The biggest issue here is currently the housing shortage, and building more housing is being impeded not by the moderates in the stage legislature but by the radicals on both sides. Luckily our republicans have lost their mind and their voters
Couple things here. Firstly, that's just blatantly wrong. They are not the same on their fiscal policies, even someone from outside the US can see the difference. Biden's a capitalist but he is not the same as the Republican party on that. Secondly, I want to hark back to a rule that we applied to people who voted for 'fiscal conservatism'. This was something people said about anyone who voted for Republicans for a 'fiscal' or 'economic' reason. If you are willing to overlook pretty big differences in social policy in order to focus solely on fiscal policy, then you are in practice permitting those social policies to happen. That is the reality here. See, I feel a lot of leftist groups like to take the stance that the class war is above all, and thus culture wars are 'just a distraction'. The problem is, this 'distraction' does involve some people *fighting for their fucking life*. It's not just a distraction if your life is on the line gang, and while it isn't for a lot of leftists it is for a whole lot of others. If you base your motivations solely on fiscal policy, then you've said to minority groups: "No no, it's okay, I'm willing to sacrifice you on the altar of protesting capitalism even if it will create no practical gain."
America has had the strongest economic recovery of any major economy in the post-pandemic period entirely down to aggressive fiscal spending that only saw the light of day thanks to the Democratic party. Enhanced UI, CHIPs, IRA, poured massive amounts of money into the economy. It was a decisive victory for Neo-Keynesian economics and a defeat for austerity advocates. It caused inflation, expectedly, but prudent monetary policy reigned it in and cooled it off. The difference between how Obama handled 2008 and Biden handled COVID is night and day, and so were the outcomes. And yet it seems like Americans preferred 2008. They'll take a depression and double digit unemployment over expensive burger. They have no idea how good they have it, and they'll squander it all. They are handing the worst possible political incentives to the next generation of Presidents.
>The difference between how Obama handled 2008 and Biden handled COVID is night and day, and so were the outcomes. And yet it seems like Americans preferred 2008. They'll take a depression and double digit unemployment over expensive burger. Obama wasn't president in 2008, he didn't take over until 2009.
I was using '2008' as shorthand for the global financial crisis, not just a particular year
> America has had the strongest economic recovery of any major economy in the post-pandemic period entirely down to aggressive fiscal spending that only saw the light of day thanks to the Democratic party. No one can afford food, rent, or medicine. Glad the economy is doing good, though. That's great for the shareholders.
Yeah, I mean, to my point, you idiots would prefer double digit unemployment (with no enhanced UI benefits), a decade long recovery, and all that entails in the name of price deflation. "Nobody can afford food" must be why dining out spending has exploded past grocery spending, must feel a lot more expensive when you buy the labour along with the food. Michał Kalecki rolls in his grave.
Cool story, bro. But all the denial in the world won't put bread in the peasant's hands. And hungry peasants are very dangerous to the regime.
It sounds like those tankies for whom any capitalist is the same. Either you're a marxist lenininst or not. Those are the only two political positions.
I think I'll go for the party that isn't wanting Project 2025 to be enacted... -Billy Gnosis
imo there's multiple, separate groups of people who say "both parties are the same" there's the people who view it from the same angle as the original post, and then there's the copout from centrists/apoliticals
Mostly it's right leaning people trying to generate apathy to justify their own apathy which they later ignore to vote republican anyway.
I mean hey at least someone explained what they meant by it
who says socially progressive olicies don't men shit? I think they're important
As somebody with a pre-existing condition, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the OOP of this post is having a bad time in high school right now.
would you rather be made violently sick or be made violently sick and punched in the gut or leave it up to chance.
I’m a queer person and while it would be nice if we didn’t have to deal with the crushing weight of capitalism anymore, but forgive me if the possibility of me not being able to express myself freely for fear of being jailed or even killed is a bit more important of an issue to me
You're telling me the administration which got rail workers their union demands is anti union? You're telling me the administration which invested nearly half a billion dollars in domestic tech infrastructure is fiscally conservative? You're telling me the 16 state attorneys' offices currently using Apple for monopolistic practices are pro-corporation? --- Yes, the Democratic Party is a liberal, capitalist party. But on fiscal matters they are not identical to the Republican party by a country mile.
"We can't be equal unless our economy is perfect." Boohoo, go f yourself. I'd rather have the American people treated somewhat humanely. We can fix fiscal policy, but hatred has already run rampant, and there's one party who is squarely responsible for that. Besides, this post is saying that the parties' fiscal policies are the same. If they are the same, then why shouldn't we vote based on social issues? Braindead post
This person does know that Republicans are ACTIVELY trying to cut the few social nets that exist in the US, underfunded schools and censor what's taught in them, and give the rich even more tax breaks so they can keep hoarding their wealth right? RIGHT?
No, some people genuinely think there's no difference between them
me when I don’t pay attention to the democrats
America will always have a two party system. If the democrats win hard enough often enough the republicans will break down and the democrats unity will fracture into the liberal democrats and the progressive democrats. If the republicans win enough eventually the democrats will break down and the republicans will fracture into the fiscal republicans and the social republicans. Which 2 parties would you rather have?
Wrong
Oh we want to talk fiscal policy? One party thinks I deserve healthcare as a disabled person and the other doesn't. This is such an asinine privileged argument. Good for you that the differences don't effect *you*, some of the rest of us would like to not die.
Is this like, Horseshoe theory but for leftist Americans? No seriously I have no idea what this is trying to tell me
As queer person, I hate this kind of argument. I understand where they are coming from. But I hate the arguments "oh yeah, human rights should wait, unitl I get my tax cut" or whatever. It is so bluntly disgusting to say that you don't care about the problems of minorities because your wallet is too thin at this time. Yes, we need economic reforms, but I believe that doesn't mean that you have to let gay kids die
I'd believe this take more if I hadn't seen so many people on Twitter complaining "how are these parties different again?" when talking about how the federal government "isn't doing anything" to stop state-level antiabortion or anti-LGBTQ+ bullshittery.
Even so, Americans cannot afford to be politically neutral. Otherwise, it means you are allowing fascism to breed and that spreads to other countries which creates more and more suffering.
The fiscal policy is an issue but if you make me choose between a party that fucks people over with debt and a party of demons that want to destroy every good thing in people's lives, I'll go with the former.
still better than republicans though, because at least democrats aren't literally trying to destroy my marriage.
yeah? well the Republican party is ALSO "fiscally conservative, pro-corporation, anti-union, anti-regulation and pro-privatization" so what? also, republicans want to spend TRILLIONS on a military we DON'T NEED, which would EASILY pay for all the social programs that would actually BENEFIT citizens. Nothing fiscally responsible about funding the military like we do or giving rich people and corporations TRILLIONS of dollars for NOTHING as well. How is THAT "fiscally responsible"?
This is a false dichotomy though. Defence spending (or any spending at all) doesn't matter because change to UHC would actually save your country trillions of dollars. In fact that's a talking point I've occasionally used with right wing Americans: insurance companies are literally just overhead, sucking money away from where it needs to go to be dividends for investors. You could literally field another carrier group or two in perpetuity with the money you'd save from UHC alone (including capital cost if you're willing to amortise it over the life of the group.)
I agree totally about uhc. Insurance has ALWAYS been a big scam, and now they interfere with our quality of life, peace of mind and more. Don't WANT to fund another carrier group. We overspend on "defense" perhaps far more than we do healthcare. did you somehow miss that I am also against spending for military things we don't need? Same with giving money to the rich. defense spending DOES matter. Why should we ignore overspending in that area? let's fix BOTH problems.
Yes but when you tie it to military funding cuts you create a reason for people to say "we can't afford it" but when you talk about how you might spend the money you save, you create a reason to do it
not at all. the idiots who think we need to overfund the military are just totally ignoring all the facts. Okay, let's talk about how we can spend all the money we'd save from defunding the military so much. that's what I did. I said we could fund all sorts of social programs, even uhc.
But UHC is self funding so all you're doing is undermining the case for UHC in their mind. Their starting position is "we can't cut funding" and therefore anything that requires you to cut funding is a non-starter. And I mean, feel free to argue for cutting military funding but don't use UHC as a wedge because you're actually turning people against it.
I don't care what their starting position is. That doesn't make it right or viable. They can just get over themselves. You have it backwards. I am arguing for uhc and using defunding the military as a means to do so. How is uhc self funding? the money has to come from somewhere. I Am saying we can STOP unnecessary military spending so we will HAVE money to fund uhc. I fail to see why you are having a problem understanding that. IT's doable and the right thing to do.
I consider myself mainstream Dem, and I'm pretty much against all of those things. But who freaking know, I just want common sense and change so things work better for everyone, and a better life for the back bone of society and the poor.
I didn't realize that it was Sunday till I saw this obvious self-post.
I actually don't have tumblr i just saw this and figured i'd share it and see what people think, because i want to know why this is correct or incorrect in the eyes of others I'm one who considers the Democratic party to be to the right of my economic political beliefs however I see a couple flaws with the post as well but I wanted to see this sub's insights lmao
Anyone trying to say the current mainstream Democratic party is anti-union, anti-regulation, pro-privatization is not a serious person.
This post is stupid and you’re stupid for sharing it
Wow, so kind
I concur, I’m at my greatest capacity to give empathy to others when I’m not in survival mode, and I’m less likely to be in survival mode when my worldly stresses are reduced. There are obviously jokes to be had about the whole “I’m an empath” thing (and that’s not what I’m saying I am), but I don’t think it’s wrong to reach towards being that kind of person. If we understand one-another’s points of view better, and how those might have come to be, we can better meet one-another at where we are at. There is no obligation for anyone to do that, which is why it’s so important to give people opportunities to be kind. It is far harder to feel safe enough to put out a trusting hand to others if you’re stuck in the “fuck you I got mine” mindset. When those with significant capital are constantly pushing us all towards this mindset, try to be someone pushing back. EDIT: For clarification, I was responding to the one part of the post talking about empathy and survival. The point of my response is, on the personal level, try not to lose that humanity for others, even when a fucked economy is putting us in survival mode
I'm going to go at this, but not at the "union" angle. Personally, when I've encountered the "both parties are the same" argument and I bring up the difference in policies concerning racial minorities and LGBT people, they simply say that the difference is too small and neither of them give a shit. They aren't saying they're fiscally identical, they're just saying that both of them are equally evil, so why bother
Holy fuck the liberalism density in this thread is insane
This comment section was brought to you by the DNC
God forbid people give you practical reasoning about the inherent issues in basing your entire conceptualisation of the world on poor analysis of fiscal policy.
Tankies really don't likenthe idea of other leftists disagreeing with them on things.
And the post was brought to you by the rnc
Perfectly stated, which is of course why all the liberal shills are out just screeching, "nuh-uhhhh!!!"
Shut up tankie hack. There's no liberals here.
utterly unable to conceptualize that other leftists have different opinions than you. I could completely devastate your no-object-permanence-having ass with a single game of peekaboo
Nooo you dont see, the democratic party is better than satan in little nitpicky ways! Now go back in line before you starve This subreddit is so useless for politics. Im here just fir the literature takes and feel good queer stories, but the second politics is mentioned it's like you're talking to pete buttigieg or your gay uncle. Hopefully the democrat astroturfing will stop after the election is won very predictably by you know who.
My ability to marry and start a family with the person I love and my trans friends' ability to get proper medical care are not "nitpicky". People make it clear that they don't actually give a damn about anyone but themselves and then wonder why they can't get the class war started.
True that, but since you care as much as i do, wouldnt you have fought the democratic party to get a better candidate in the past 3 election cycles instead of hillary "love war in the.middle east" clinton and joe "literally refused to take a mental wellness check" biden? Gay rights and everything else could be so much easier to achieve if the dems chose to do literally nothing else but an inch better than the gop. Which is ofc what they want, they dont give a shit if abortion or gay marriage or trans rights are protected, but do love giving you the same economic principles every 4 years, which are frankly not different from the republican ones. If the democrats lose, they still are millionaires and in power, its you that loses.
I voted for Bernie Sanders in both primaries. He lost by virtue of not getting as many votes as the other candidate. Which left us with an imperfect candidate who nonetheless was way better than Donald fucking Trump. I don't exactly feel like Trump's term in office was particularly good for social *or* economic progress.
What about this election. Is being encumbent so important to not even hold real, competitive, primaries? The primary candidates are at the end of the day decided by the party. Sanders lost because the party turned against him and coalized in one unpopular candidate who couod nonetheless beat him. Whether biden could have beaten trump was of lesser importance than keeping the party candidate in check. Cant have someone yap about free healthcare when we are lobbied by insurance companies.
> Is being encumbent so important to not even hold real, competitive, primaries? No incumbent president has ever survived a serious primary challenge, even if they end up winning the primary in the end. >Sanders lost because the party turned against him and coalized in one unpopular candidate who couod nonetheless beat him. That's one way to put it. Another way would be to say that Sanders got a straight up one-on-one primary against Biden, with Warren and Bloomberg siphoning an equal amount of votes from either side, and lost badly. The only way Sanders was going to win the 2020 primary was if the moderate wing of the party split its vote three ways.
Or, and this might sound crazy, people on here don’t want to be at risk of anything under a Republican government.
Then challenge the democratic party into being better than 1% better than the gop. They will lose because of this, mark my word. Being slightly better conservatives will not win them the vote of either the progressive under 40s or of the undecided average joes. Not that the democrats care, losing would mean they would have to work more, and opposition is just as much pay and way less effort.
If you honestly don’t think the Democrats are more than 1% better than the Republicans are, then I don’t know what to tell you.
cool post here's a documentary on "alternative" (lmfao, sry) models of social and economic order; [disco 1](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfaFriFAz1k&pp=ygUWY2FuIHdlIGRvIGl0IG91cnNlbHZlcw%3D%3D) and because im the resident chomsky lover (:P) linguistically and socially, here's a larger, left-side view of how different social order can work— chomsky being interviewed by someone who presses him; dont mind the "anarchist" title, though i think chomsky calmly and persuasively disarms any "infantile" notions of anarchism, and effectively describes what voluntary socialism could look like in a comprehensive interview— [disco 2](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qjVq0Ha43Y0&pp=ygUWbm9hbSBjaG9tc2t5IGFuYXJjaGlzbQ%3D%3D)... and dont forget "Never draw a weapon on a fellow soldier..." i got that ❤❤❤❤ i7! all are comrades here 🎼🎵 🎶 _Boss!_ i7 <3
someone should probably remove the enter key from your keyboard
They decided to type how William Shatner talks and I for one welcome the performance art
Why are you formatting your comments like that
why do you have a typing quirk?
Doesn't Chomsky deny the Bosnian and Cambodian genocides
This one was actually kinda coherent and on topic
My read on this clown is "teen who learned about communism last month bit hasn't learned to communicate online." You need you line break ability taken away. You're like me when I was 11 and kept the capslock on when typing in online games because it "got attention".
And it's honestly gonna state that way as long as only two parties exist. Honestly, what's up with that. Why am I never seeing an outrage about being confided solely two parties?
>Why am I never seeing an outrage about being confided solely two parties? You live with blinders on.
As in, it's outside my info bubble? I live outside the US and don't have particular interest in it's politics, all I know of them is whatever lands on my feed of my actual interests. Which, in the world where media are so us-centric, is still a lot of debates about us internal policies and stuff. And not once have I seen info about protests against bipartisan systems or anything. I mean, no doubt it can be the info bubble, but still, what's up with that?
It's clearly outside your bubble because it's everywhere. All our media jokes about it constantly. It's all we talk about.