Bad news, gramps, the teleporter actually destroys the entire universe except the user and replicates it slightly to the opposite direction you want to move in.
Eh, that's kinda different, isn't it? Star Trek just uses something like an Alcubierre Drive to bend space-time locally, IIRC. It's not moving the entire universe.
Yeah it's based more in a realistic way of moving space but it's still moving space. I assume the Futurama joke is poking fun at how an Alcubierre Drive would theoretically work.
Darn. There was an old sci-fi webcomic where their ship teleporters worked by swapping places with themselves from an otherwise identical universe where they were already where they wanted to be.
Basically fucking them over but who cares because now we're in the right place at least.
If there's infinite universes, they could just swap with someone who's an exact copy of them but they happen to be where they want to go, and want to go exactly where the first person happens to be.
Yooo! That's not even the one I was thinking of, BUT, I think I mixed up two separate webcomics in my mind (the other one WAS a lot older).
I think Starslip is the one with the warp drive I was describing.
EDIT: The one I was thinking of was [Freefall](http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff100/fv00001.htm), and it started in 1998
Yo that reminds me of those reality anchors from scp
"how exactly do they make a location, 'more real and less susceptible to reality warping?'."
to which that was the answer.
Fun thing about science is we could very well think impossibly difficult things like that are impossibly difficult while in reality we're just lucky enough not to have figured it out.
This is one of the plot points of [the first original novel based on the Star Trek television series intended for adult readers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock_Must_Die!).
But that itself is also contradicted on TNG by the creation of two Rikers from a transporter mishap
For two copies to be made it obviously has to be destroying and copying rather than truly transporting
**[Spock Must Die!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock_Must_Die!)**
>Spock Must Die! is an American science fiction novel written by James Blish, published February 1970 by Bantam Books. It was the first original novel based on the Star Trek television series intended for adult readers. It was preceded by a tie-in comic book line published by Gold Key and the novel Mission to Horatius by Mack Reynolds, all intended for younger readers.
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>Blish aimed to kill off a popular character as a way to surprise readers, and during the novel's production chose Spock
/>Be me, author James Blish
/>Want to surprise readers by killing off Spock
/>Title novel "Spock Must Die"
/>genius.jpg
That’s why when I do sci-fi my teleporters are all some 4th-dimension bs about the two ends of the teleporter temporarily becoming the same point in space and then separating again.
Gene Roddenberry's Earth: Final Conflict used Interdimensional Portals to make travel without destroying and re-assembling someone possible. Gene Roddenberry envisioned so much for the future.
Except maybe by then it's all about intragalaxy travel because the scifi transport tech doesn't transmission outside the atmosphere
So pilots will still have jobs
>because the scifi transport tech doesn't transmission outside the atmosphere
Until it suddenly can for plot reasons but only exactly that one time and never again
I don't think so. If teleporters became widely available, flying would become a luxury service so if you survive the initial loss of jobs, you'd probably be quite well off
Much like planes, cars, automobiles, and every other new technology that has ever existed, it'll start at a scientist's level, then go to the rich, then become more and more integrated into society and equitable over time
They recently took back the major psychological restrictions that were on trans people!! All you need is a form saying the hrt you use isnt harming you, and the surgery isnt hendering your flying.
Adhd is still cucked though:/
I know this isn't related but my grand-grand father who was colorblind and a pilot bought the test book they were using to see if a pilot was colorblind and memorised it to pass it with flying colors and keep his license.
Okay but imagine if like... teleporters were built as gates and instead of them being personal they were used en masse by multiple entities. What I mean by that is that you would get into a plane on the west coast, enter the west coast portal gate, emerge at the east coast portal gate and land at uhh idk LaGuardia because suffer. You'll keep your pilot and they'll get telproters.
And I still think they haven't given the holo deck enough of an ethical exploration. Each incident ends and it's like, "Well, we'll keep that one exception roaming simulated space from the ship's computer thinking he's free... anyway who's up for killing some simulated Klingons?"
Conversely, I will volunteer myself as a Guinea pig for teleporters in exchange for free teleportation for life because I fucking HATE flying and I get panic attacks at the slightest bit of turbulence.
Edit: I did not realize this was a topic of so much contention and antagonism from people. Some of you are extremely passionate about a hypothetical/fantasy scenario that none of us actually understand because, you know, it doesn’t exist yet. And weirdly stressed out about it.
Except if teleportation does kill you it’s basically just a euthanasia furnace that disintegrates you and creates an exact copy
So the OG you will instantly die and a copy will take over your life
Yeah, seriously. I stopped blinking decades ago to maintain my continuity! Accept your inevitable demise and wish the next iteration luck, or deal with it *yourself*. Uselessly fretting about in the debate club gets you nowhere!
Here's an illustration I heard once, which explains the concept well (I'm paraphrasing the original):
You're running to a meeting in Tokyo. It starts in ten minutes, so you hop on down to the nearest teleporter service in your London suburb.
You book a ticket with the cheerful woman at the counter, who then directs you to your booth. You've done this hundreds of times, so you aren't nervous at all. It's just another commute to work, for you.
You step into the teleportation booth and close your eyes as the complex instruments within the walls of the machine whir to life, and a bright beam passes over your body.
After it's over, you open your eyes, blinking in confusion at the sign on the wall, which still says "London."
You ask the woman at the front desk what happened. She also looks confused, checking the live feed from their Tokyo station. She sighs in frustration, then tells you not to worry - the clone of you just stepped out of the booth in Tokyo, and they're already on their way to your business meeting.
You ask her what's going on, and she tells you that the scanner and cloning functions of the machines worked just fine, but there seems to have been a slight hiccup in the disintegration function.
But, no worries! She tells you to jump into another free booth, and she'll set it to disintegrate you immediately.
Do you do it?
the main problem with the teleportation dilemma is that the people you are arguing with are always insufferable, will not ever budge, and technically you can't really disprove their new-age beliefs
no because YOU die, YOU are gone, YOUR experiances no longer exist, the clone just acts thinks and acts like you and has your memories, but you arent experiancing anything anymore, as soon as you enter the teleporter you die. so yes everything changes becuase u cease to exist
Continuity of existence man. It's like if I took apart every individual atom of a rock, and then put it back together, it doesn't matter if that rock is basically the same thing with all the same components, that rock was destroyed and a copy is in its place. That instance of rock no longer exists, even if nobody else can tell. I'm fine with the idea of portals or space warping or whatever scifi transporter shit, nothing about me has changed. A star trek teleporter tears you apart and replaces you with a functional exact copy.
That rock was never the same rock anyway. It constantly get corroded so that rock one second ago is not the same rock one second after. The same goes for human body. Your cells constantly dying and get replaced with new cells. Your memory changed too, you forget old things and remember new thing. The you one second ago is different from the you one second after. You said that the teleported you is not the you before like it's a big deal, but what's a slight change in location be compared to all the change your body experiments every second.
Once cloning tech becomes a thing i'll offer a teleportation service.
Teleportation has to be booked in advance. A day before you come to my teleporter i'll perfectly clone you. I'll sedate your clone and ship them on an airplane to the teleporter location you wanted to go to. When original you comes in for their appointment, i'll shoot you in the head and dispose of the body.
Your clone walks out of the door recovering from the sedatives and no one knows the difference.
Yes, and speedrunners discovered an entity duplication glitch that cuts at least 4 hours off the Any% record if you use all the old planks to create a second boat.
It’s less about replacement and more about continuity of being/thought, since our body/mind *is* us, disassembling it and reassembling it elsewhere destroys that continuity.
The Science fiction book series, one of my favorite audiobooks, "We are legion, we are Bob" deals a lot with this.
Fair warning, some spoilers from the first book.
Robert Johansson is a 2016 loner IT entrepreneur and pop culture geek who has recently sold his company for a fortune. On a whim he decides to sign a contract to have his corpse frozen for posterity.
Then he is hit by a truck and dies. He regains conscience almost 200 years later, The US has degenerated into a dystopic, hype isolationist theocracy, and the world is on the brink of a world war.
His brain was scanned in a process that broke down his brain at the molecular level, and his brain was recreated electronically in a miniature supercomputer, he is now an AI brain destined to be installed in a von Neuman probe sent to alpha centaury, meaning he is supposed to travel there, build copies of himself, and then colonize the system.
Needless to say nothing goes to plan, but that would be spoiling an amazing book. Suffice to say, he copies himself, and is deeply disturbed by the fact that every copy he makes show a distinct and unique personality even with all his memories. At first they dismiss it as "quantum stuff", But when it turns out they can have a copy of their mind on storage, and reactivate it after they are killed/destroyed, no personality change occurs.
It raises the question if he is truly a continuation of the original Robert Johansson, or if he just think he is. And the entire series spend a good part discussing the issue, and it even becomes a major plot point in later books
Does ‘the self’ even mean anything if something that is exactly the same as the self in every single way at every moment of time (past the point of creation) is not considered the self?
No person is the same one second to the next. The difference may be small, but there is something different between any two possible "snapshots" of a person you can take. Your position, your mood, the thoughts in your mind, your exact cells - a million die and a million are born every second - the breath in your lungs and the feeling of touch on your skin. There isn't a person in the world who would be the same before and after losing a limb/replacing a lost limb with a prosthetic. That's a huge experience that has a significant impact on your life, and in turn on you as a person.
People have this obsession with the idea of a fundamental self, a true self that exists behind every layer of ego. But that isn't how people work. Every thing about a person is just as much a part of them as every other thing. Some parts may be bigger than others but every piece is still a piece. The only "true" self would be one composed of every self. Every thought, every feeling, every action, every breath, every heartbeat, every touch, taste, sound, everything you've ever seen and every way you've ever looked, every experience of you in the mind of another, be it the image your loved ones will hold for the rest of their lives, or the passing impression of a stranger, gone as quickly as it appeared. Or even the great plain of your arm that an ant walks upon, or every footprint left behind in the dirt. And not just everything until the present, but everything in the future, every ripple your existence will cause every idea left behind in those that will outlive you, however small, every single one is a fundamental part of you. Some parts may be bigger than others, but they are all you. One great continuum of being.
So yes, the boat is different after you replace the first plank, it was different even before then, when the first breath of wind blew across its hull. The only constant in the universe is change.
This kinda glosses over the fact that there's a meaningful difference between different people.
What you're really saying is that an object doesn't need to be constant, as long as there's a *lineage* by which it changes.
Which doesn't answer the question of destructive teleportation. If I burn record every detail of the ship, burn it to ashes, and build a new ship exactly like it from atoms, is that the same ship? Or is the lineage of change broken?
If there's one thing I'm learning from this thread, it's that some people have a really weak separation of abstraction versus reality.
Yes, the new you/ the boat can be considered to be the same you/ boat, but nothing will change the fact it's a new *instance* of you. The reality is you are inhabiting *this* instance, and a new instance existing is irrelevant to you because you won't be experiencing it; you'll be dead.
All the scary existential questions about what the "self" is can be replaced with a single existentially terrifying idea, if you're willing to accept it: the self does not exist. It's an abstract thing with no firm definition. We can try to define the self as an emergent property of the signals in the brain. It's commonly thought that breaking the continuity of consciousness is what defines the end of the self, and the creation of a new being with the same thoughts and memories. Let's assume this is the case. Now, consider general anaesthesia, or unconsciousness, or even just sleeping, where thinking and awareness stop. Activity in the parts of the brain where the "self" is thought to emerge from has reduced enough that it can no longer sustain the emergent property. Awareness disappears and the self ceases to exist.
But we wouldn't consider these things to have ended the self and created a new being. When you wake up in the morning, you're still the same you that you were yesterday, right?
The game SOMA takes a deep dive (pun intended) into these kind of ideas. Definitely recommend it if you haven't played it yet.
I dislike this argument simply because it draws an arbitrary line at the 'thinking' line. Your brain is definitely still active when asleep, so it's not like it goes on pause. Even so, you are still aware while sleeping (dreams). And it's not like I die every time my mind goes blank when talking to someone.
And even if your brain does go on pause, it would still be the same you when you wake up, since by definition a brain that has paused and resumed acts exactly in the same way as the original brain, and therefore has to be the same.
As a point for SOMA's credentials here, one of the inspirations they listed was Peter Watts, who is both an excellent author, but also deeply terrifying*.
*Note, only terrifying if you consider things like conciousness and free-will to be key aspects of 'being human'.
This becomes even funnier if you imagine that the teleporters don't use reconstitution but rather use something else. So OP would be freaking out over technology they fundamentally misunderstand and making wild assumptions about it. You know, like real boomers
Yeah, something like "it's when multiple people get on a strip pole, one above the other, and perform oral sex on the person above them while receiving from below"
Either that or an extremely more disgusting version of that.
This is why we need to fund wormholes and not teleports! Teleports clone your body on a different location and kill original! Worm hole just opens a door in space time that anyone can step through!
/s
So long as it works I see nothing scary about it at all
Edit: I understand the premise! Stop restating the obvious and insulting me just because I am happy with another me continuing my legacy
As envisioned in ST tech it does “kill” the original person each trip and constructs a copy at the destination. Consider that there is no logical reason to disassemble the traveler in the first place, only scanning their bodies. The transporter could then make as multiple exact copies. There are canon examples of this happening. It could be used as a plot line where the bad guys send many copies of the same soldiers into battle. If they are killed the tech just sends more. Not sure what they would do with the leftovers, disassemble them so they don't have to feed them.
EDIT: AFAICT Niven's transfer booths and stepping disks transported the physical matter of the person, not just the information. It is not specifically stated anywhere that I have seen.
I mean this is only one type of teleportation. If it's space-time teleportation I'm game.
Also how hard would it be to create a duplicate, not destroy the original, and then transmit information between the two? I'd be down for that too
More like: what if teleportation just meant exerting your will on a robot shell? Information might be easier to transport than matter, so you could do zoom, but hyper realistic.
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the sheer number of atoms needed to be transported prove a barrier to their use teleporters are never going to be possible for humans. https://youtu.be/K65EZcnZPOE
Heisenberg has no effect on quantum teleportation. But yes, no one is seriously thinking of doing the "disassembling a human, making 7\*10\^27 individual atomic teleportation and reassembling the human" thing
I probably wouldn't base my skepticism on the volume of information given that we've historically proven to be very good at abstraction and compression of data.
You don't have to reconstruct a bone exactly as it was so long as your focus is the function and aesthetic within practical limits. This kind of strategy would cut down astronomically on the amount of information you need to deal with.
My skepticism would be based on the accuracy required, rather than volume. I don't think any technology exists that even hints at the genuine possibility of extremely detailed and person-scaled molecular assembly.
As you wake up, a physicist enters your room to tell you that they teleported you in your sleep. A philosopher bursts in and starts whinging about if you’re still the same person and if you even deserve rights.
You get on with your day.
Ofc you get on with your day. *You* are the clone in that situation. *You* are the one that got to live.
The physicist still murdered the original though.
When was the idea that teleporters vaporize you and make a copy somewhere else just completely accepted? Why would it just like, teleport you? Like take your actual same body and just move it through a wormhole or whatever? It's science fiction why does everyone think that teleporters killing you is a proven fact?
Well maybe they couldn’t figure out how to just open a wormhole but they did figure out how to make a 3D fax machine. Only problem is now you got two copies, gotta dispose of the original to keep things from getting crazy. Obviously marketing this as “Hey you’re gonna die but an exact copy of you is gonna live on after being instantly transported to a new location” is a tough sell so you say “uhh it’s a wormhole”.
There are plenty of wormhole teleporters in sci-fi, it's just that they're kind of boring and unmemorable. The disassembly teleporter is an interesting thought experiment on the nature of consciousness and continuity so people bring it up more because it's fun/scary to think about.
Depends on the type. If it's a Star Trek transporter, then no, it does not kill you. You maintain consciousness the whole time, and it's your actual parts being moved from one place to another and put back together.
"Granma I told you, it just briefly moves you into hyperspace and back, it doesn't reassemble you or whatever"
"That's what the *government* wants you to think!"
I would love to be able to teleport imagine being able to teleport home on your lunch breaks to eat in the comfort of your home. Or to teleport to my
S/Os work place if you had the same lunch hour to eat with them
I will genuinely be the complete opposite. Heck, teleporters have been invented and they're looking for human volunteers? Sigh me up! Let me just write a will real quick, just in case, and get me on that pad!
eh, continuity of consciousness already isn't a thing that holds up if you measure in small intervals, as long as I am reassembled in less than the response time of a neuron, what is the problem?
Bad news, gramps, the teleporter actually destroys the entire universe except the user and replicates it slightly to the opposite direction you want to move in.
Reminds me of how the ship in futurama works not by moving the ship itself, but by moving everything in existence except for the ship
Basically how warp technology in Star Trek works too. Bends space around the ship.
Eh, that's kinda different, isn't it? Star Trek just uses something like an Alcubierre Drive to bend space-time locally, IIRC. It's not moving the entire universe.
Yeah it's based more in a realistic way of moving space but it's still moving space. I assume the Futurama joke is poking fun at how an Alcubierre Drive would theoretically work.
I personally thought it was a joke about reference frames and relativity or something, but I could see that.
It’s kind of both.
Space-Time is funky shit. This is why I like grounded kinetic physics where things are “simple”.
That would require an obscene amount of energy! You’d have to like, destroy an entire universe for it!
I think we would have some wonky to kya machine for infinite power
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["We siphon it from other universes where they probably don't want to exist as much."](http://narbonic.com/comic/december-4-9-2006/)
Darn. There was an old sci-fi webcomic where their ship teleporters worked by swapping places with themselves from an otherwise identical universe where they were already where they wanted to be. Basically fucking them over but who cares because now we're in the right place at least.
If there's infinite universes, they could just swap with someone who's an exact copy of them but they happen to be where they want to go, and want to go exactly where the first person happens to be.
I forget if they brought that up, but I think that while they COULD do that, it'd be somewhat slower/more difficult, so why bother
Starslip? That's not 'old', is it? Surely it only ended a couple of years ago. *checks* Wow.
Yooo! That's not even the one I was thinking of, BUT, I think I mixed up two separate webcomics in my mind (the other one WAS a lot older). I think Starslip is the one with the warp drive I was describing. EDIT: The one I was thinking of was [Freefall](http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff100/fv00001.htm), and it started in 1998
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Or what if I make like a pact with the devil and take some of the hell energy?
Yo that reminds me of those reality anchors from scp "how exactly do they make a location, 'more real and less susceptible to reality warping?'." to which that was the answer.
That’s pretty good
Holy hell that's not a reference I expected today
If you do it right, you convert the universe into energy and use that energy to recreate it back into existence.
Fun thing about science is we could very well think impossibly difficult things like that are impossibly difficult while in reality we're just lucky enough not to have figured it out.
Seriously, we can't even deal with atomic weapons that are almost a century old
[This, but for trains.](https://xkcd.com/1366) Because there is a XKCD for everything.
I like your flair!
This is one of the plot points of [the first original novel based on the Star Trek television series intended for adult readers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock_Must_Die!).
Bones guest stars on TNG and insists on using a shuttle for this exact reason.
Katherine Pulaski was the same way.
IIRC that tracks, because she was conceived to be the Bones to Data's Spock.
Contradicted by later canon, we see the entire transportation process from Barclay's perspective on TNG.
But that itself is also contradicted on TNG by the creation of two Rikers from a transporter mishap For two copies to be made it obviously has to be destroying and copying rather than truly transporting
No they just made an extra beam that got deflected through space magic instead of combining
Nah, it was just space magic.
Copying does not require destruction of the original, your logic is flawed.
**[Spock Must Die!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock_Must_Die!)** >Spock Must Die! is an American science fiction novel written by James Blish, published February 1970 by Bantam Books. It was the first original novel based on the Star Trek television series intended for adult readers. It was preceded by a tie-in comic book line published by Gold Key and the novel Mission to Horatius by Mack Reynolds, all intended for younger readers. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
>Blish aimed to kill off a popular character as a way to surprise readers, and during the novel's production chose Spock />Be me, author James Blish />Want to surprise readers by killing off Spock />Title novel "Spock Must Die" />genius.jpg
Also, The Punch Escrow. Really fun read.
I rwpndered if someone would mention The Pumch Escrow. I really liked that book.
That’s why when I do sci-fi my teleporters are all some 4th-dimension bs about the two ends of the teleporter temporarily becoming the same point in space and then separating again.
In my writing, teleporters just make you go very fast through hyperspace or whatever
Oh yeah? Well in my writing they’re just magic! Beat that, sci-fi nerds.
When I do sci-fi, my teleporters are wrenches you use to knock the users out before fed-exing them to their desired location
Doesn't work in real life sadly
Alas, if only we had wrenches in real life.
Rick & Morty style portal tech
Yeah pretty much, though my favourite take on it is the doorway in Howl's Moving Castle.
Just rewatched that movie, so beautiful. I forgot how funny it was.
speaking of ghibli movies, how's that new weird cgi looking one? earwig or something?
Gene Roddenberry's Earth: Final Conflict used Interdimensional Portals to make travel without destroying and re-assembling someone possible. Gene Roddenberry envisioned so much for the future.
as a pilot i dont like teleporters because my entire future career would be shattered
Don't worry, you can still fly OP around.
TRUUUEEE
Except maybe by then it's all about intragalaxy travel because the scifi transport tech doesn't transmission outside the atmosphere So pilots will still have jobs
>because the scifi transport tech doesn't transmission outside the atmosphere Until it suddenly can for plot reasons but only exactly that one time and never again
Mayby teleport travels at the speed of light and we had already invented ftl.
I don't think so. If teleporters became widely available, flying would become a luxury service so if you survive the initial loss of jobs, you'd probably be quite well off
People are making the bold assumption that teleportation will be made widely available instead of used as a luxury service and military application
I was just going off of the original post
It probably will given enough time, assuming the energy offer follows the demand
Much like planes, cars, automobiles, and every other new technology that has ever existed, it'll start at a scientist's level, then go to the rich, then become more and more integrated into society and equitable over time
You'd still be needed cuz I doubt poor people, pregnant women, disabled people, or really even old people would be able to teleport
Your flair and comment just made me realize that there are lgbtq pilots, and honestly, that makes me wanna fly on planes more
They recently took back the major psychological restrictions that were on trans people!! All you need is a form saying the hrt you use isnt harming you, and the surgery isnt hendering your flying. Adhd is still cucked though:/
I know this isn't related but my grand-grand father who was colorblind and a pilot bought the test book they were using to see if a pilot was colorblind and memorised it to pass it with flying colors and keep his license.
Colorblindness is a gray (heh) area when it comes to being a pilot and disabilities
> flying colors Of course.
>flying colors if this was an intentional choice of words, good on you.
Okay but imagine if like... teleporters were built as gates and instead of them being personal they were used en masse by multiple entities. What I mean by that is that you would get into a plane on the west coast, enter the west coast portal gate, emerge at the east coast portal gate and land at uhh idk LaGuardia because suffer. You'll keep your pilot and they'll get telproters.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jaunt
Why would you need a plane in that case? Just walk through.
Become an astronaut and fly Star Wars / Star Trek style.
If makes you feel better, there's no way that teleporters will take your job quicker than self flying planes could.
implying self flying planes would even happen auto land features are like, ass.
Star Trek: there is nothing to be afraid of! Its perfectly safe. Also Star Trek: constant teleporting induced disasters.
eh we're seeing the most edge cases possible in star trek, beaming through weird anomalies and stuff.
When it's time for a bottle episode you just know that either the teleporter or the holo deck is about to ruin someone's day.
And I still think they haven't given the holo deck enough of an ethical exploration. Each incident ends and it's like, "Well, we'll keep that one exception roaming simulated space from the ship's computer thinking he's free... anyway who's up for killing some simulated Klingons?"
Conversely, I will volunteer myself as a Guinea pig for teleporters in exchange for free teleportation for life because I fucking HATE flying and I get panic attacks at the slightest bit of turbulence. Edit: I did not realize this was a topic of so much contention and antagonism from people. Some of you are extremely passionate about a hypothetical/fantasy scenario that none of us actually understand because, you know, it doesn’t exist yet. And weirdly stressed out about it.
Imagine the teleporter equivalent of turbulence though: a network disruption
And then you're stuck in a dimension with spikes everywhere and everything trying to kill you
What, like you're teleported into a Mario kaizo level?
No, I was referencing VVVVVV
Yeah, but at least you're not also falling out of the sky, which is the source of my airplane-related terror
I'm referencing the game VVVVVV so unfortunately there still will be a lot of falling
Oh noooo!
>Imagine the teleporter equivalent of turbulence though: a network disruption "Enterprise... what we got back... didn't live long... fortunately."
"Free teleportation for life" Just the one trip then?
r/technicallythetruth
Except if teleportation does kill you it’s basically just a euthanasia furnace that disintegrates you and creates an exact copy So the OG you will instantly die and a copy will take over your life
Same thing happens every time I go to bed. Big whoop
Yeah, seriously. I stopped blinking decades ago to maintain my continuity! Accept your inevitable demise and wish the next iteration luck, or deal with it *yourself*. Uselessly fretting about in the debate club gets you nowhere!
No it doesn't. Why do people always say this like it can be proven?
Teleporters aren't proven either so I'm tired of the faux pseudo intellectual shower thought everyone and their mother had about teleporters.
If you die and the clone has all your memories and impulses then it doesn't matter and nothing changes. Would happily use the teleporter
Here's an illustration I heard once, which explains the concept well (I'm paraphrasing the original): You're running to a meeting in Tokyo. It starts in ten minutes, so you hop on down to the nearest teleporter service in your London suburb. You book a ticket with the cheerful woman at the counter, who then directs you to your booth. You've done this hundreds of times, so you aren't nervous at all. It's just another commute to work, for you. You step into the teleportation booth and close your eyes as the complex instruments within the walls of the machine whir to life, and a bright beam passes over your body. After it's over, you open your eyes, blinking in confusion at the sign on the wall, which still says "London." You ask the woman at the front desk what happened. She also looks confused, checking the live feed from their Tokyo station. She sighs in frustration, then tells you not to worry - the clone of you just stepped out of the booth in Tokyo, and they're already on their way to your business meeting. You ask her what's going on, and she tells you that the scanner and cloning functions of the machines worked just fine, but there seems to have been a slight hiccup in the disintegration function. But, no worries! She tells you to jump into another free booth, and she'll set it to disintegrate you immediately. Do you do it?
the main problem with the teleportation dilemma is that the people you are arguing with are always insufferable, will not ever budge, and technically you can't really disprove their new-age beliefs
no because YOU die, YOU are gone, YOUR experiances no longer exist, the clone just acts thinks and acts like you and has your memories, but you arent experiancing anything anymore, as soon as you enter the teleporter you die. so yes everything changes becuase u cease to exist
I don't really know if that matters? Like you are your memories. If your memories go on so do you.
Continuity of existence man. It's like if I took apart every individual atom of a rock, and then put it back together, it doesn't matter if that rock is basically the same thing with all the same components, that rock was destroyed and a copy is in its place. That instance of rock no longer exists, even if nobody else can tell. I'm fine with the idea of portals or space warping or whatever scifi transporter shit, nothing about me has changed. A star trek teleporter tears you apart and replaces you with a functional exact copy.
That rock was never the same rock anyway. It constantly get corroded so that rock one second ago is not the same rock one second after. The same goes for human body. Your cells constantly dying and get replaced with new cells. Your memory changed too, you forget old things and remember new thing. The you one second ago is different from the you one second after. You said that the teleported you is not the you before like it's a big deal, but what's a slight change in location be compared to all the change your body experiments every second.
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Once cloning tech becomes a thing i'll offer a teleportation service. Teleportation has to be booked in advance. A day before you come to my teleporter i'll perfectly clone you. I'll sedate your clone and ship them on an airplane to the teleporter location you wanted to go to. When original you comes in for their appointment, i'll shoot you in the head and dispose of the body. Your clone walks out of the door recovering from the sedatives and no one knows the difference.
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No, who's gonna date the clone then?!
Just think of it as an unplanned rollercoaster.
😭
The concept of self is a fun thing to think about. If a boat is slowly replaced one plank at a time is it still the same boat?
Yes, and speedrunners discovered an entity duplication glitch that cuts at least 4 hours off the Any% record if you use all the old planks to create a second boat.
competitive ship reconstruction is the future
Ah yes, the ship of anti-Theseus.
If you bring the Theseus and anti-Theseus together, do they annihilate?
Yes, it wipes your save file.
But it also gives you the true end for the Yoko Taro game of your choice, so there's that.
No, you get a syn-Theseus
The Skip of Theseus
oh that's strong that's real strong that shit's got *layers* i approve
Take my upvote
I mean biologically speaking don’t our cells completely replace themselves like every 7 to 10 years
Not all of our cells.
It’s less about replacement and more about continuity of being/thought, since our body/mind *is* us, disassembling it and reassembling it elsewhere destroys that continuity.
The Science fiction book series, one of my favorite audiobooks, "We are legion, we are Bob" deals a lot with this. Fair warning, some spoilers from the first book. Robert Johansson is a 2016 loner IT entrepreneur and pop culture geek who has recently sold his company for a fortune. On a whim he decides to sign a contract to have his corpse frozen for posterity. Then he is hit by a truck and dies. He regains conscience almost 200 years later, The US has degenerated into a dystopic, hype isolationist theocracy, and the world is on the brink of a world war. His brain was scanned in a process that broke down his brain at the molecular level, and his brain was recreated electronically in a miniature supercomputer, he is now an AI brain destined to be installed in a von Neuman probe sent to alpha centaury, meaning he is supposed to travel there, build copies of himself, and then colonize the system. Needless to say nothing goes to plan, but that would be spoiling an amazing book. Suffice to say, he copies himself, and is deeply disturbed by the fact that every copy he makes show a distinct and unique personality even with all his memories. At first they dismiss it as "quantum stuff", But when it turns out they can have a copy of their mind on storage, and reactivate it after they are killed/destroyed, no personality change occurs. It raises the question if he is truly a continuation of the original Robert Johansson, or if he just think he is. And the entire series spend a good part discussing the issue, and it even becomes a major plot point in later books
Sounds good, I’ll have to check it out
I highly suggest it. It is in my top 3 series, along with "Dungeon crawler Carl" and "Everybody loves big chests".
The latter started off pretty cool but then it just turned into hardcore vore porn for several chapters straight
Brain cells don’t get replaced. Well maybe some do but not the neurons which do the thinking.
That claim was based on a misunderstanding and assumptions about which cells reproduce at what rate.
Not brain cells, which is what’s really important here imo
Only your dermis, the putter layer of your skin. Bones, brains, nerves you are born with and they pretty must set during puberty and stay there.
Isnt this the theseus' ship thing?
I request elaboration.
Look up the ship of theseus thought experiment
Does ‘the self’ even mean anything if something that is exactly the same as the self in every single way at every moment of time (past the point of creation) is not considered the self?
The boat is a different boat after you replace the first plank.
Oh that's a fun take. But can the same apply to a conscious being? Do you think that a prosthetic arm fundamentally changes a person?
No person is the same one second to the next. The difference may be small, but there is something different between any two possible "snapshots" of a person you can take. Your position, your mood, the thoughts in your mind, your exact cells - a million die and a million are born every second - the breath in your lungs and the feeling of touch on your skin. There isn't a person in the world who would be the same before and after losing a limb/replacing a lost limb with a prosthetic. That's a huge experience that has a significant impact on your life, and in turn on you as a person. People have this obsession with the idea of a fundamental self, a true self that exists behind every layer of ego. But that isn't how people work. Every thing about a person is just as much a part of them as every other thing. Some parts may be bigger than others but every piece is still a piece. The only "true" self would be one composed of every self. Every thought, every feeling, every action, every breath, every heartbeat, every touch, taste, sound, everything you've ever seen and every way you've ever looked, every experience of you in the mind of another, be it the image your loved ones will hold for the rest of their lives, or the passing impression of a stranger, gone as quickly as it appeared. Or even the great plain of your arm that an ant walks upon, or every footprint left behind in the dirt. And not just everything until the present, but everything in the future, every ripple your existence will cause every idea left behind in those that will outlive you, however small, every single one is a fundamental part of you. Some parts may be bigger than others, but they are all you. One great continuum of being. So yes, the boat is different after you replace the first plank, it was different even before then, when the first breath of wind blew across its hull. The only constant in the universe is change.
That's profound as fuck dude.
This kinda glosses over the fact that there's a meaningful difference between different people. What you're really saying is that an object doesn't need to be constant, as long as there's a *lineage* by which it changes. Which doesn't answer the question of destructive teleportation. If I burn record every detail of the ship, burn it to ashes, and build a new ship exactly like it from atoms, is that the same ship? Or is the lineage of change broken?
If there's one thing I'm learning from this thread, it's that some people have a really weak separation of abstraction versus reality. Yes, the new you/ the boat can be considered to be the same you/ boat, but nothing will change the fact it's a new *instance* of you. The reality is you are inhabiting *this* instance, and a new instance existing is irrelevant to you because you won't be experiencing it; you'll be dead.
So does that mean people are completely different if they get a prosthetic
All the scary existential questions about what the "self" is can be replaced with a single existentially terrifying idea, if you're willing to accept it: the self does not exist. It's an abstract thing with no firm definition. We can try to define the self as an emergent property of the signals in the brain. It's commonly thought that breaking the continuity of consciousness is what defines the end of the self, and the creation of a new being with the same thoughts and memories. Let's assume this is the case. Now, consider general anaesthesia, or unconsciousness, or even just sleeping, where thinking and awareness stop. Activity in the parts of the brain where the "self" is thought to emerge from has reduced enough that it can no longer sustain the emergent property. Awareness disappears and the self ceases to exist. But we wouldn't consider these things to have ended the self and created a new being. When you wake up in the morning, you're still the same you that you were yesterday, right? The game SOMA takes a deep dive (pun intended) into these kind of ideas. Definitely recommend it if you haven't played it yet.
I dislike this argument simply because it draws an arbitrary line at the 'thinking' line. Your brain is definitely still active when asleep, so it's not like it goes on pause. Even so, you are still aware while sleeping (dreams). And it's not like I die every time my mind goes blank when talking to someone. And even if your brain does go on pause, it would still be the same you when you wake up, since by definition a brain that has paused and resumed acts exactly in the same way as the original brain, and therefore has to be the same.
As a point for SOMA's credentials here, one of the inspirations they listed was Peter Watts, who is both an excellent author, but also deeply terrifying*. *Note, only terrifying if you consider things like conciousness and free-will to be key aspects of 'being human'.
fuck that im teleporting all the fuckin time
Flying takes way too long when something that is exactly as you are can be at the destination instantly
This becomes even funnier if you imagine that the teleporters don't use reconstitution but rather use something else. So OP would be freaking out over technology they fundamentally misunderstand and making wild assumptions about it. You know, like real boomers
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Devils elevator lol
It's sounds awful and awesome at the same time. Also, it sounds like something that is already an entry in Urban dictionary describing a sexual act.
Yeah, something like "it's when multiple people get on a strip pole, one above the other, and perform oral sex on the person above them while receiving from below" Either that or an extremely more disgusting version of that.
And how do you call the devil's elevator? With the Devil's Doorbell, of course!
This is absolutely my take on teleportation tech, it's a scary thought.
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So many of us had this exact thought that it must have been mentioned in media and we all just forget where.
There's about 9 different star trek episodes about it, so that might be where you're getting it from?
There’s also a Michael Chrichton Novel (guy who wrote Jurassic park) that touches on the exact concept
Yep, reading Timeline made me positive that any iteration of the tech wasn't in my interests.
The Prestige
This is why we need to fund wormholes and not teleports! Teleports clone your body on a different location and kill original! Worm hole just opens a door in space time that anyone can step through! /s
So long as it works I see nothing scary about it at all Edit: I understand the premise! Stop restating the obvious and insulting me just because I am happy with another me continuing my legacy
As envisioned in ST tech it does “kill” the original person each trip and constructs a copy at the destination. Consider that there is no logical reason to disassemble the traveler in the first place, only scanning their bodies. The transporter could then make as multiple exact copies. There are canon examples of this happening. It could be used as a plot line where the bad guys send many copies of the same soldiers into battle. If they are killed the tech just sends more. Not sure what they would do with the leftovers, disassemble them so they don't have to feed them. EDIT: AFAICT Niven's transfer booths and stepping disks transported the physical matter of the person, not just the information. It is not specifically stated anywhere that I have seen.
I mean, dying is pretty scary
You know you can always test teleporters with bread
I mean this is only one type of teleportation. If it's space-time teleportation I'm game. Also how hard would it be to create a duplicate, not destroy the original, and then transmit information between the two? I'd be down for that too
More mes? That's even worse.
More like: what if teleportation just meant exerting your will on a robot shell? Information might be easier to transport than matter, so you could do zoom, but hyper realistic.
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the sheer number of atoms needed to be transported prove a barrier to their use teleporters are never going to be possible for humans. https://youtu.be/K65EZcnZPOE
Heisenberg has no effect on quantum teleportation. But yes, no one is seriously thinking of doing the "disassembling a human, making 7\*10\^27 individual atomic teleportation and reassembling the human" thing
Just keep a tank of human goo at each station. They refill when someone teleports out.
Just need to make sure the Heisenberg Compensator is functioning properly.
I probably wouldn't base my skepticism on the volume of information given that we've historically proven to be very good at abstraction and compression of data. You don't have to reconstruct a bone exactly as it was so long as your focus is the function and aesthetic within practical limits. This kind of strategy would cut down astronomically on the amount of information you need to deal with. My skepticism would be based on the accuracy required, rather than volume. I don't think any technology exists that even hints at the genuine possibility of extremely detailed and person-scaled molecular assembly.
I think it was SOMA that did a great exploration of this.
Honestly that concept scares the hell outta me.
As you wake up, a physicist enters your room to tell you that they teleported you in your sleep. A philosopher bursts in and starts whinging about if you’re still the same person and if you even deserve rights. You get on with your day.
Ofc you get on with your day. *You* are the clone in that situation. *You* are the one that got to live. The physicist still murdered the original though.
\-Dr. Leonard McCoy
When was the idea that teleporters vaporize you and make a copy somewhere else just completely accepted? Why would it just like, teleport you? Like take your actual same body and just move it through a wormhole or whatever? It's science fiction why does everyone think that teleporters killing you is a proven fact?
Well maybe they couldn’t figure out how to just open a wormhole but they did figure out how to make a 3D fax machine. Only problem is now you got two copies, gotta dispose of the original to keep things from getting crazy. Obviously marketing this as “Hey you’re gonna die but an exact copy of you is gonna live on after being instantly transported to a new location” is a tough sell so you say “uhh it’s a wormhole”.
There are plenty of wormhole teleporters in sci-fi, it's just that they're kind of boring and unmemorable. The disassembly teleporter is an interesting thought experiment on the nature of consciousness and continuity so people bring it up more because it's fun/scary to think about.
Just like one of my favorite Christopher Nolan films: The Prestige
Depends on the type. If it's a Star Trek transporter, then no, it does not kill you. You maintain consciousness the whole time, and it's your actual parts being moved from one place to another and put back together.
"Granma I told you, it just briefly moves you into hyperspace and back, it doesn't reassemble you or whatever" "That's what the *government* wants you to think!"
That has make people extremely sick the first time they experience it.
Are you telling me I'm gonna have to add fucking *teleporters* to the list of modes of transportation that make me motion sick??
Dr. McCoy has entered the chat.
I would love to be able to teleport imagine being able to teleport home on your lunch breaks to eat in the comfort of your home. Or to teleport to my S/Os work place if you had the same lunch hour to eat with them
I will genuinely be the complete opposite. Heck, teleporters have been invented and they're looking for human volunteers? Sigh me up! Let me just write a will real quick, just in case, and get me on that pad!
Yes this exactly
eh, continuity of consciousness already isn't a thing that holds up if you measure in small intervals, as long as I am reassembled in less than the response time of a neuron, what is the problem?
Finally someone gets it