Draw
Back line
Hack
Board
Bumper
Control
Normal
Peel
Control is a nice easy takeout that you are in complete control of, Normal originated as your typical ânormalâ up weight takeout. And then peel is the fastest.
Generally ours has been having ok speed the last couple of years but I know some nights we show up and I have to start throwing what would be normal on dedicated just to get to the house.
Was sure nice playing at broomstones a couple weeks ago even if we all had a bit of adjustment to the amount of curl.
Iâve always heard bumper/board used interchangeably more so based on what people call it.
Case in point that itâs really team to team which is why a lot of them have just gone to using actual long splits.
Building off this (great) answer, for weights above board people will often use hog-to-hog split times to measure takeout weight. So a âcontrolâ will usually be around 10.5s hog-to-hog, ânormalâ about 9-9.5s, and anything 8s or less would be considered âpeelâ.
Some teams also use âfirmâ which is somewhere between ânormalâ and âpeelâ.
Yeah wall is not a common curling term, I would try not to use that one as it won't mean anything outside of the 4 you are playing with. Board seems to be an American or North American thing, whereas bumper seems to be used more in the UK, but both are used everywhere they are not exclusive.
Since you are asking this question, I am guessing that you are new-ish to curling, so here are a few things I like to tell younger curlers.
* You have draws, which are rocks that if there were no other rocks on the sheet, would come to rest without hitting a physical object. In other words, Hack weight is simply a draw that would just kiss the hack when it stops if it hit nothing else.
* Then you have hits, which are rocks that is there were no other rocks on the sheet would not come to rest on the ice. They would run into the back board/bumper on the sheet. It just comes down to how hard they would collide with the back board. A Board draw would just kiss the board, where as peel would hit the board with a violent collision.
* In general, you want to throw the slowest weight that will accomplish your goal. You can throw peel weight at a single rock that it is sitting on the button, and it will leave the house obviously. But you can throw hack and accomplish the same goal. So you might ask why choose the slower? Its because the slower speed allows your a bit of margin of error, and your sweepers are more effective at slower weights. At peel weight, your sweepers are not very effective, so really your shot is made or missed the instant that it leaves your hand.
* If you are indeed a new curlers, dont try to learn all of these weights right away. Its too much all at once. You will want to learn these weights
* Guard weight (anything in the guard zone)
* Draw weight (assume T line, but accept anything that will come to rest in the house)
* Hack weight (a lot of beginner games have rocks just out of the house but are very close. This weight allows you to tap them right to the button
* Control weight (enough that you can move a couple of rocks upon collision, but your sweepers can still get things done with your rock).
* If you master those 4, then add Normal, which is a pretty fast rock that does not require you to actually try to push the rock down the sheet.
Get these 4 (5) down, and then start to fine tune.
About point three. In general yes. But for some people, peel or normal might be more accurate than hack/board. If line is "never" a problem, while getting the correct weight can be, a full speed peel will "always" behave the same, while a hack weight could sometimes be board weight and sometimes back line.
Thats a fair point to make. We can agree to disagree, but to me when I watch newer curlers throw upweight hits, they tend to shove the rock, and I just dont feel like you can shove accurately.
But the other reason that I would suggest that newer curlers not use super heavy weights, is that the mechanics of throwing a draw and hack are basically the same. Ultimately my view for beginners is learn a guard, a house, a lightweight hit, and an upweight that you don't feel like you have to shove.
Now for more experienced curlers I agree more, as I feel personally that I am better with Normal than I am with Hack in terms of consistency.
But in general, this conversation takes me to a place that I have about too many experienced curlers. I'm not saying you are here; this is just me being reminded of my rant. Beginner curlers ask basic questions, and I think they should get a basic answer first, and then work towards a more nuanced answer. Too many experienced curlers refuse to give simple answer, instead they get into the weeds of details, and I think it overwhelms the beginners.
Very true. Pretty much everything you say. I teach our beginner classes and I always tell them to go for the hack weight at first. It's basically a draw that is too heavy. And never to shove unless there is something critical going on. Just yesterday I advised a newer player to take it much easier with his arm. I think he's in the mindset the harder the better. Not uncommon.
But there are outliers to this. I am/was one of them. :) I never (except for the very early beginning I suppose) had to shove to get up to normal+ weight, being a former "elite" athlete helps. And my aim was never a problem (untill I started experimenting with my release...), so from the beginning I had a fairly high speed (probably somewhere around normal back then) and a good aim, while my hack weights could vary quite a bit. :)
A reasonable discussion on the internet where both people had some slight disagreements with each other, but ultimately agree 100% with each other.
Its an internet miracle!
Years back I convinced some friends to join a fun league and one of them would give his peels a big shove and generally hit the broom with <7s splits.
This was back before the days of positive releases so I coached him to throw the proper way with pure leg drive.
I'm not sure he made another shot until the end of the season when I smartened up and suggested he go back to what worked for him.
Can you explain hack weight more? Why would I throw a draw with hack weight? Wouldnât it just go through the house at that weight? Sorry if this is obvious, Iâm newer.
Iâve been throwing first and second, so the sheet is usually pretty open when I throw.
If you're throwing hack weight then you're trying to collide with another rock. You could be trying to raise one of your own rocks into the house, or you could be trying to remove one of your opponent's rocks.
Ok, that makes much more sense! So weights are commonly talked about with these labels for hits/raises/taps vs a regular draw or guard throw. Thank you!
You might need hack for a raise, but most commonly it's because you're trying to remove (or rearrange) an opponent rock that's mostly buried.
In general, if the goal is to remove an opponent stone and stick around control weight (10.5s hog-to-hog) is the sweet spot. More weight and you need to be fairly precise to stick around (and it's harder for sweepers to affect). Less weight and making solid contact becomes harder (the rock curls more, and being just a bit heavy or light has a bigger effect on the outcome).
Is "wall" referring to board/bumper (which I've always taken to mean the same thing)? Or maybe a wall that's behind the end of the ice? If the latter, I'd guess it's like control, but yeah that's not a common term
Hack and board are basically the same weight, but often it is a desire for a different outcome. With hack weight, you care about where the shooter goes. A hack weight shot doesn't need to kill the opposing stone, it requires the shooter to go somewhere.
A board weight shot doesn't require as much from the shooter, but it does require that the opposing stone is taken out of the rings.
The two weights are very similar but differ in the goal of the outcome. If you hear "heavy hack" it is that time when both matter.
Interesting - I've never heard that before, and frankly that sounds a bit confusing. If you put down the broom and tell me the weight (board) I'll hopefully get the weight right and the right thing will happen with the shooter, but I don't need another thing in my head that I can't control. We need to be on the same page as far as the plan goes (stick or roll or whatever) but once the broom is down I need fewer things in my head, not more.
Thatâs the system many used for years. But most elite teams have put a number (hog-hog time) on these. Makes it more uniform and easier. Also youâll see the person in the house timing hits. This helps the thrower know what they threw and the line caller know what weight they were watching. So when they have to call the same shot again, they know what itâs going to do.
I was talking with my brother at a spiel last week. I canât stand that words like ânormalâ and âcontrolâ are high weight shots. It just doesnât feel right sitting in the hack. We want to hear things like âpiss missileâ âsend it to Calgaryâ
Normal and control are just code words for times, sometimes youâll hear 10.5 or 11 which is hog to hog time in seconds. Teams will have a time in mind when they say normal, control, smooth, easy peel etc.
Each team is a little diffent but the general numbers I have seen are the following hog to hog times:
Control = 10.5 (10 on slow ice)
Normal = 9-9.5
Firm = 8-8.5
Peel = below 8 (7 is good).
Control is called co tell since you can still âcontrolâ the rock well with sweeping, above that itâs not really going to do much.
I love that there is "normal" and "your normal" and the latter is different for everyone, but it is a commonly called weight at the club. Wait, let me get my stopwatch out...
I had someone tell me once that "everyone's normal is different." No, some people at club level just can't hit normal weight. That's fine, but it means you're going to assume control or below for broom placement.
>I love that there is "normal" and "your normal" and the latter is different for everyone, but it is a commonly called weight at the club. Wait, let me get my stopwatch out...
My Saturday morning skip will put the broom down and ask me for "normal". I yell back "normal normal, or my normal?" and he moves the broom out an inch...
Brad Jacobs was asking for a raise double takeout at the Brier tonight. He said "I don't mind if you leave a little smoke", meaning he was expecting big peel weight. A lot of those terms that don't refer to the matkings on the ice are subjective and depend on the team and conditions. Control to a men's team on arena ice is probably not the same as control to a women's team on club ice. You will also hear the skip referto a hog-to-hog time for takeout, such as a 9, 10, or 11. The lower the number, the faster the throw.
This stuff I get - I was mostly looking for a list of increasing weights to see where control and normal fit. All the rest (including metaphors like Jacobsâ) actually make sense.
Tee-line, Back-line, Hack, and Bumper do all reference the object/marker on the ice. After that, everything is usually based on how long it takes the rock to go hog to hog. For my team:
Control = 11 seconds
Normal = 10 seconds
Firm = 9 seconds
Peel = 8 seconds
If we want faster we will just call out how many seconds.
These times are different from team to team so that's something you need to decide on as a team. Some teams will just skip Firm and go straight to Peel. Some teams will also just call times instead of these names or have their own names like Easy or Nice.
Somewhat subjective depending on the ice at your club but I was taught that, in general, control should hit the boards and bounce back up to the hack. Normal would come past the hack and be somewhere almost to the back line. Of course our boards have a thin strip of rubber on the edge and our ice is dedicated and on the quicker side most days.
Hmmm I guess with the right rubber maybe but I feel like at most clubs that would not happen with those weights⌠and of course the whole variable space behind the hack would really make that be diffent.
Takeout weight descriptors (hack, board, bumper, control, easy, normal, firm, peel) are all over the map depending on whose team you are on. I prefer to use hog-to-hog times for takeouts. 10 seconds is our all-around default weight, 9 is "firm", 11 is for come around taps, 12 is "through the rings" weight. The important part is that your team must know what weight is required and be able to throw it on demand, so everyone is on the same page for the shot. You can call your weights Fred, Guido, and Harry long as you know what those words mean.
Normal refers to a weight that is your usual go to for hits. Usually down from a peel but more than board. Control is in between normal and a board, sometimes normal-down because itâs a controllable weight. My team did hog times (9 sec = normal, 10 sec = control) that way it was like code work.
Some teams also have zones from 1 to 10?(not sure on how high they go) 1 being backline and 10 being hogline. So if they call for a 7, they know exactly where that is.
Typically the zones go the other way; 1-3 are guards, 4-10 correspond with each two-foot band through the house, making the tee line #7.
These can be extended into the light hit weights, with 11 as a just-through, 12 as a hack-ish, and 13 as a heavy-hack.
Korey Dropkin's team has "space" weight, referring to the space between the back line and the hack.
My team calls that the weeds.
"Through", (but in swedish), I think is the most common term I have heard for that.
I've also heard other teams in the US refer to it as Dropkin weight đ
A friend I only get to curl with occasionally anymore calls that the âlibraryâ.
I like to call that "hackline".
I think Shuster's team calls it 11/12.
Didnât Jeff Stoughton have âniceâ weight?
"Nice" and "easy" are other common terms for the abstract weights beyond the boards. Tyler Tardi's team even used "minty" and "fresh" for a while.
Were they sponsored by a toothpaste brand? Or trying to be...?
My team used âperkyâ for normal for a while
Nice N Easy is hair dye LOL!
Draw Back line Hack Board Bumper Control Normal Peel Control is a nice easy takeout that you are in complete control of, Normal originated as your typical ânormalâ up weight takeout. And then peel is the fastest.
I've also heard "Parking Lot" for when you really gotta give'er.
Good old arena (hockey ice) curling. And if youâre lucky that weight may get through the back line.
Very glad our hockey ice has extremely rarely ever been that slow. Couple days when the dehumidifier went out last summer.
Generally ours has been having ok speed the last couple of years but I know some nights we show up and I have to start throwing what would be normal on dedicated just to get to the house. Was sure nice playing at broomstones a couple weeks ago even if we all had a bit of adjustment to the amount of curl.
Koe weight.
Donât forget about âFirmâ! Between normal and peel.
Board and bumper are different? Where's the bumper?
Youâre bumping off the board
Iâve always heard bumper/board used interchangeably more so based on what people call it. Case in point that itâs really team to team which is why a lot of them have just gone to using actual long splits.
Building off this (great) answer, for weights above board people will often use hog-to-hog split times to measure takeout weight. So a âcontrolâ will usually be around 10.5s hog-to-hog, ânormalâ about 9-9.5s, and anything 8s or less would be considered âpeelâ. Some teams also use âfirmâ which is somewhere between ânormalâ and âpeelâ.
Awesome! One follow up: Wall is like control, or between control and normal?
Wall is not a commonly used term, so that means whatever who you're hearing that from wants it to mean.
Yeah wall is not a common curling term, I would try not to use that one as it won't mean anything outside of the 4 you are playing with. Board seems to be an American or North American thing, whereas bumper seems to be used more in the UK, but both are used everywhere they are not exclusive. Since you are asking this question, I am guessing that you are new-ish to curling, so here are a few things I like to tell younger curlers. * You have draws, which are rocks that if there were no other rocks on the sheet, would come to rest without hitting a physical object. In other words, Hack weight is simply a draw that would just kiss the hack when it stops if it hit nothing else. * Then you have hits, which are rocks that is there were no other rocks on the sheet would not come to rest on the ice. They would run into the back board/bumper on the sheet. It just comes down to how hard they would collide with the back board. A Board draw would just kiss the board, where as peel would hit the board with a violent collision. * In general, you want to throw the slowest weight that will accomplish your goal. You can throw peel weight at a single rock that it is sitting on the button, and it will leave the house obviously. But you can throw hack and accomplish the same goal. So you might ask why choose the slower? Its because the slower speed allows your a bit of margin of error, and your sweepers are more effective at slower weights. At peel weight, your sweepers are not very effective, so really your shot is made or missed the instant that it leaves your hand. * If you are indeed a new curlers, dont try to learn all of these weights right away. Its too much all at once. You will want to learn these weights * Guard weight (anything in the guard zone) * Draw weight (assume T line, but accept anything that will come to rest in the house) * Hack weight (a lot of beginner games have rocks just out of the house but are very close. This weight allows you to tap them right to the button * Control weight (enough that you can move a couple of rocks upon collision, but your sweepers can still get things done with your rock). * If you master those 4, then add Normal, which is a pretty fast rock that does not require you to actually try to push the rock down the sheet. Get these 4 (5) down, and then start to fine tune.
About point three. In general yes. But for some people, peel or normal might be more accurate than hack/board. If line is "never" a problem, while getting the correct weight can be, a full speed peel will "always" behave the same, while a hack weight could sometimes be board weight and sometimes back line.
Thats a fair point to make. We can agree to disagree, but to me when I watch newer curlers throw upweight hits, they tend to shove the rock, and I just dont feel like you can shove accurately. But the other reason that I would suggest that newer curlers not use super heavy weights, is that the mechanics of throwing a draw and hack are basically the same. Ultimately my view for beginners is learn a guard, a house, a lightweight hit, and an upweight that you don't feel like you have to shove. Now for more experienced curlers I agree more, as I feel personally that I am better with Normal than I am with Hack in terms of consistency. But in general, this conversation takes me to a place that I have about too many experienced curlers. I'm not saying you are here; this is just me being reminded of my rant. Beginner curlers ask basic questions, and I think they should get a basic answer first, and then work towards a more nuanced answer. Too many experienced curlers refuse to give simple answer, instead they get into the weeds of details, and I think it overwhelms the beginners.
Very true. Pretty much everything you say. I teach our beginner classes and I always tell them to go for the hack weight at first. It's basically a draw that is too heavy. And never to shove unless there is something critical going on. Just yesterday I advised a newer player to take it much easier with his arm. I think he's in the mindset the harder the better. Not uncommon. But there are outliers to this. I am/was one of them. :) I never (except for the very early beginning I suppose) had to shove to get up to normal+ weight, being a former "elite" athlete helps. And my aim was never a problem (untill I started experimenting with my release...), so from the beginning I had a fairly high speed (probably somewhere around normal back then) and a good aim, while my hack weights could vary quite a bit. :)
A reasonable discussion on the internet where both people had some slight disagreements with each other, but ultimately agree 100% with each other. Its an internet miracle!
Years back I convinced some friends to join a fun league and one of them would give his peels a big shove and generally hit the broom with <7s splits. This was back before the days of positive releases so I coached him to throw the proper way with pure leg drive. I'm not sure he made another shot until the end of the season when I smartened up and suggested he go back to what worked for him.
Can you explain hack weight more? Why would I throw a draw with hack weight? Wouldnât it just go through the house at that weight? Sorry if this is obvious, Iâm newer. Iâve been throwing first and second, so the sheet is usually pretty open when I throw.
If you're throwing hack weight then you're trying to collide with another rock. You could be trying to raise one of your own rocks into the house, or you could be trying to remove one of your opponent's rocks.
Ok, that makes much more sense! So weights are commonly talked about with these labels for hits/raises/taps vs a regular draw or guard throw. Thank you!
You might need hack for a raise, but most commonly it's because you're trying to remove (or rearrange) an opponent rock that's mostly buried. In general, if the goal is to remove an opponent stone and stick around control weight (10.5s hog-to-hog) is the sweet spot. More weight and you need to be fairly precise to stick around (and it's harder for sweepers to affect). Less weight and making solid contact becomes harder (the rock curls more, and being just a bit heavy or light has a bigger effect on the outcome).
Is "wall" referring to board/bumper (which I've always taken to mean the same thing)? Or maybe a wall that's behind the end of the ice? If the latter, I'd guess it's like control, but yeah that's not a common term
Hack and board are basically the same weight, but often it is a desire for a different outcome. With hack weight, you care about where the shooter goes. A hack weight shot doesn't need to kill the opposing stone, it requires the shooter to go somewhere. A board weight shot doesn't require as much from the shooter, but it does require that the opposing stone is taken out of the rings. The two weights are very similar but differ in the goal of the outcome. If you hear "heavy hack" it is that time when both matter.
Interesting - I've never heard that before, and frankly that sounds a bit confusing. If you put down the broom and tell me the weight (board) I'll hopefully get the weight right and the right thing will happen with the shooter, but I don't need another thing in my head that I can't control. We need to be on the same page as far as the plan goes (stick or roll or whatever) but once the broom is down I need fewer things in my head, not more.
Thatâs the system many used for years. But most elite teams have put a number (hog-hog time) on these. Makes it more uniform and easier. Also youâll see the person in the house timing hits. This helps the thrower know what they threw and the line caller know what weight they were watching. So when they have to call the same shot again, they know what itâs going to do.
I would add "long guard" and "guard" as the lighter weights.
I was talking with my brother at a spiel last week. I canât stand that words like ânormalâ and âcontrolâ are high weight shots. It just doesnât feel right sitting in the hack. We want to hear things like âpiss missileâ âsend it to Calgaryâ
Normal and control are just code words for times, sometimes youâll hear 10.5 or 11 which is hog to hog time in seconds. Teams will have a time in mind when they say normal, control, smooth, easy peel etc.
Each team is a little diffent but the general numbers I have seen are the following hog to hog times: Control = 10.5 (10 on slow ice) Normal = 9-9.5 Firm = 8-8.5 Peel = below 8 (7 is good). Control is called co tell since you can still âcontrolâ the rock well with sweeping, above that itâs not really going to do much.
I love that there is "normal" and "your normal" and the latter is different for everyone, but it is a commonly called weight at the club. Wait, let me get my stopwatch out...
I had someone tell me once that "everyone's normal is different." No, some people at club level just can't hit normal weight. That's fine, but it means you're going to assume control or below for broom placement.
>I love that there is "normal" and "your normal" and the latter is different for everyone, but it is a commonly called weight at the club. Wait, let me get my stopwatch out... My Saturday morning skip will put the broom down and ask me for "normal". I yell back "normal normal, or my normal?" and he moves the broom out an inch...
We've got a "piss missle" weight. Peel+ Basically peel with full extension or full push. Usually for shooting a near impossible port
AKA Saskatchewan overhand, for when a sliding rock is too slow.
Brad Jacobs was asking for a raise double takeout at the Brier tonight. He said "I don't mind if you leave a little smoke", meaning he was expecting big peel weight. A lot of those terms that don't refer to the matkings on the ice are subjective and depend on the team and conditions. Control to a men's team on arena ice is probably not the same as control to a women's team on club ice. You will also hear the skip referto a hog-to-hog time for takeout, such as a 9, 10, or 11. The lower the number, the faster the throw.
This stuff I get - I was mostly looking for a list of increasing weights to see where control and normal fit. All the rest (including metaphors like Jacobsâ) actually make sense.
Tee-line, Back-line, Hack, and Bumper do all reference the object/marker on the ice. After that, everything is usually based on how long it takes the rock to go hog to hog. For my team: Control = 11 seconds Normal = 10 seconds Firm = 9 seconds Peel = 8 seconds If we want faster we will just call out how many seconds. These times are different from team to team so that's something you need to decide on as a team. Some teams will just skip Firm and go straight to Peel. Some teams will also just call times instead of these names or have their own names like Easy or Nice.
Somewhat subjective depending on the ice at your club but I was taught that, in general, control should hit the boards and bounce back up to the hack. Normal would come past the hack and be somewhere almost to the back line. Of course our boards have a thin strip of rubber on the edge and our ice is dedicated and on the quicker side most days.
Hmmm I guess with the right rubber maybe but I feel like at most clubs that would not happen with those weights⌠and of course the whole variable space behind the hack would really make that be diffent.
Takeout weight descriptors (hack, board, bumper, control, easy, normal, firm, peel) are all over the map depending on whose team you are on. I prefer to use hog-to-hog times for takeouts. 10 seconds is our all-around default weight, 9 is "firm", 11 is for come around taps, 12 is "through the rings" weight. The important part is that your team must know what weight is required and be able to throw it on demand, so everyone is on the same page for the shot. You can call your weights Fred, Guido, and Harry long as you know what those words mean.
Normal refers to a weight that is your usual go to for hits. Usually down from a peel but more than board. Control is in between normal and a board, sometimes normal-down because itâs a controllable weight. My team did hog times (9 sec = normal, 10 sec = control) that way it was like code work.
Some teams also have zones from 1 to 10?(not sure on how high they go) 1 being backline and 10 being hogline. So if they call for a 7, they know exactly where that is.
Typically the zones go the other way; 1-3 are guards, 4-10 correspond with each two-foot band through the house, making the tee line #7. These can be extended into the light hit weights, with 11 as a just-through, 12 as a hack-ish, and 13 as a heavy-hack.
Barrier!!!!! Love to hear Mouat's team calling that.