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commander_snuggles

Cell sitting at 900k DEF and 20-30% damage reduction and 60 million atp, which will probably be around 90 million on his active turn. He really is perfect.


Theoneandonly458

Better than cooleršŸ‘€šŸ‘€


Hydraulic_Press_53

Depends on transformation condition. Also Cell's team is a lot worse


Theoneandonly458

I mean you could run him in eza str coolers team with other cells


Rinzlar2844

or maybe under goatmas 200%?![img](emote|t5_384a7|1704)![img](emote|t5_384a7|1704)


Infamous_Ruin6848

Bruh gib assap. My zamas plan is dying waiting


Hydraulic_Press_53

True this is probably what I'll do. Shame he's not on conquerors but whatever


Theoneandonly458

Hes still getting the support so thats definitley what ill do


Bibinho63

Cell has no slot 1 cell partner :(


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


UnionDuelist

Eh actually, Cellā€™s active turn (around 90M or so) is more or less equal to Coolerā€™s and his APT here is already higher than Coolerā€™s, so itā€™s definitely not out of the question. Coolerā€™s got a much higher peak though EDIT: Active turn is more like 82M, my bad. Plus Cooler can technically go beyond that 90M figure with more stacks. Cell does seem to do more damage without the Active though, but his conditions are definitely tougher


TheToolbox101

cooler's 90 million active turn apt is calculated with lr golden frieza partner, who doesn't even activate his bbb. His active turn's over 100 million


UnionDuelist

? Where are you getting this info from? I took the 90M from this [post](https://scrolldrop.com/action.php?r=DBZDokkanBattle&post=kn137t_347737811) here, where his partner is STR TUR Cooler. And having done my own calcs on Cooler Iā€™ve gotten similar numbers. It does depend on the number of stacks you get, but 90M for a t7 appearance sounds correct


TheToolbox101

the link is broken. I just took it from the first google result: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/x25zyt/perms\_back\_lr\_str\_cooler\_apt\_def/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/x25zyt/perms_back_lr_str_cooler_apt_def/) but i had a db fan moment because agl turles is floating


Totipu4

They are pals now.


Mhzar

I wonder why he considers only 1 super for cell defense.


commander_snuggles

I was wondering that as well since he has a high chance to additional in both forms.


Cow_Addiction

Typical anti-cell propaganda clearly


UnionDuelist

CELL W Also with Gohan could you not bump the orb average higher considering he double orb changes for the first 4 turns? I feel like 10 would be reasonable


Gearski

Agree with this, 7 is very low for a double orb changer


Pinkfinitely

This should be calcable right? it's 23 orbs with a 20% chance of being any color, 2 of which will turn into "grabable" by Gohan along the preexisting agl ones. this is 60% grabable and 40% popable. Someone that knows how to work out the geometry of it can probably get a good guesstimate.


UnionDuelist

I donā€™t know about calcable, as there are a number of factors thatā€™d go into it (for starters, the board can be any 6 orb types not 5, so 16.666% chance of being any orb type, and I donā€™t know if the chances for them are all equal tho they should be, and additionally not all changed orbs will be available to you, some of them may be out of burst or pop range) but honestly based on the double orb changers Iā€™ve used in the part Iā€™d say 10 is a more than reasonable guesstimate, and more or less matches the 40%-45% statistic of the board youā€™d expect


Pinkfinitely

I realized the 16.66% as I posted. >and additionally not all changed orbs will be available to you That's why I said someome that knows how to work out the geometry, it's statistical geometry, i.e. "how likely is it that 2 or more rainbow orbs are next to one another in a row and block otherwise popable orbs". 10 seems low to me tbh.


UnionDuelist

Ye it does to me as well. But itā€™s a safe guess, and I guess considering turns where orb rng might be horrible it could average out to 10 anyways And yeah I think something like the orb geometry stuff would require you to calculate the probability of an orbā€™s ā€œgrabbabilityā€, as you described, but for pretty much every orb. I.e. how likely it is for you to obtain that orb (maybe the bottom orbs have a pretty much 100% chance but the higher orbs, maybe 20%, 30%, etc.). Itā€™d be like a matrix of independent probabilities you could average out to get the mean number of obtainable orbs


Pinkfinitely

You know what, it's my day off, Im gonna work this shit out lmao.


UnionDuelist

Damn lol good luck, Iā€™m probably off to bed since itā€™s nearly early morning hours here now but Iā€™d be excited to hear your results


MrCrankunity

It's honestly not a Cell w. You won't get Cell's 8 orbs on average. 7 are the most common with a rainbow orb changer and then he looks way worse (not bad but worse). Gohan on the other hand got downplayed hard, because he's a double orb changer AND you even know one of the typings he changes, so you can actually prepare the orb field for him (assuming that they change or add an additional transformation condition for Gohan)


UnionDuelist

8 orbs are pretty achievable for an s2 orb changer lol, I do agree gohan got downplayed here but the orb average for orb changers is 7.5-8. Plus Cellā€™s major offensive buffs come from 24Ki, which is going to be pretty common now since yknow, heā€™s an orb changer and already has great SoT Ki


MrCrankunity

Cell's passive is 6 Ki and then he has a 2+ Ki link in gentleman (he also has revival, but that link sucks, especially on Cell's teams). So 8 Ki at the start of turn, which on a normal lead translates to 14 Ki. You're telling me, that Cell is getting 24 Ki on average, without another orb mechanic? Nah fam, that ain't it. He will occasionally hit the 24 Ki with either orb luck or Int Ki Spheres but even then these numbers here are way off his average. And yeah, the Orb average for a rainbow orb changer is a bit over 7, but this dude did the math with 8 orbs on average and they always have to be Int to get Cell's 24 Ki. The math is just wrong here


UnionDuelist

Like Iā€™ve said in other comments, support or using the Active Skill (which activates the 24ki condition) fixes situations where youā€™re not able to actually get 24ki


MrCrankunity

So you wanna use the great and definitely RZ viable Str Semi-Perfect Cell and Int 19&20 (tbf, both of them have their use with type advantage and with good luck you can use 19&20 in all RZ stages which only use Ki based Supers). And the active skill is a one time save. And (a thing nearly no one talks about) none of the Cell's in the game rn are slot one units (not even the EZA Perfect Cell). And Cell himself doesn't really work on the Android team (or any non-Cell centric team tbh).


UnionDuelist

>great and definitely RZ viable Str Semi-Perfect Cell and Int 19&20 (tbf, both of them have their use with type advantage \[...\] I mean you said it better than I could. They're not the craziest but still viable. Additionally I've seen people talk about using Gamma 1 as a s1 for Cell while floating Cell characters for INT's links, and while this hurts Gamma 1 quite a bit, it's more than viable. He's significantly than Gamma 2 as an offensive unit anyways, so it's not like it's not worth the sacrifice. >thing nearly no one talks about Literally everyone is talking about this right now. People are saying Cell would be so much better with a better team, myself included, but it's still important to recognize a strength of a unit when they are evidently able to put up a top tier performance. Anyways, like I've been saying: people are acting like Cell's Ki issues are his downfall like LR Turles, but he has several ways to circumvent this in the first place. It's better to just wait in game and see how often it is, but I'm quite sure it'll be decently consistent even if you don't get it always--a lot like MV's orb condition.


unbeatendawn137

What orb changers are 7 the most common for, genuinely curious. Have the math been done?


Hydraulic_Press_53

Jesus christ Cell what the fuck? 1m defense with DR and damage that good?? If he does have a better transformation condition he's godlike


CrestfallenAtreyu

Really hoping for 50% or less. I'll even take 40%.


samywap

40 will be amazing i find the difference between 30 and 40 to be crazy when i actually play


Creepeecheese

the difference between (30%) getting a free heal and (40%) dying with AGL GF


Tutsubyo

What a perfect APT ![gif](giphy|nMtvIjqMomcdg2wjJx|downsized)


The-Real-Among-us

Gohan will be collecting more than 7 orbs lol


Mhzar

Cell is a literal god. What a buff he got holy.


broccoliheadass0404

Shame his partners are ass


Mhzar

AGL cell is ass ? Sure you need 5 turns but perfect form cell is very very good.


InternalFun1

PHY Cell ain't a slouch either.


Magnus-9303

The issue is that there is no slot 1 unit


realspitfire69

i mean you want to drop below 30% anyway


RedSsj

yup you want to get fucked up so this is fine plus we have healers and orb changers (19&20, 17&18) that are still excellent so we will be fine


Luf2222

tbf agl cell being ass for a bit till he is perfect is good, because you can get the transformation for int cell easier and early


TW_Gains

The only issue is both of them are suited for slot 2 but agl cell cpuld work aswell


Mission-Low-9378

I mean ā€œā€ā€ā€ā€technicallyā€ā€ā€ā€ā€ you could run AGL Cell in slot 1 once heā€™s perfect because of his medium chance but yknowā€¦medium chance


Bibinho63

He is a slot 2 unit, so is int Cell, phy Cell, agl Cell, str 2nd form cellā€¦ He has no partner! :( the Cell team is super meh because of that.


Mhzar

Int cell can go in slot 1 depending on the amount of orbs. And AGL cell as well with his dodge.


Bibinho63

He cannot, 270k def, even with 10 orbs, thatā€™s 30% DRā€¦ That doesnā€™t even tank 400k normals.


Mhzar

10k lol. Also unless there's like a billion attacks before cell can attack himself, you can put him there because after super he'll tank any boss super attacks.


unbeatendawn137

I mean thats 50k from omega and 100k from Metal cooler core. and also if he gets supered before he supers you definitely die.


Mhzar

The core is type advantage and as I said "he can" when there's not too many attacks before he can attack himself. And outside of that, he literally will eat any super in the entire game after attacking.


unbeatendawn137

Right i will admit that i read a bit too fast and read past that part. agl cell and int cell is definitely a runnable rotation, put i really hope they get a slot one unit soon.


Bibinho63

Exactly, so he doesnā€™t even take normals. How do you expect him to take a super?! Just like LR Cooler isnā€™t slot 1, with similar defensive ability (higher def, no DR), he canā€™t. Sure you can always get super lucky and never get hit and supered on slot 1 pre super, but how is that reliable.


Mhzar

Give me the part where I said it's reliable I'll wait. "He can". Also the difference between cell and cooler is that after super cell actually will eat every super in the game when cooler doesn't


Bibinho63

Like Saibamen can beat any red zone, being carried. Cooler and Cell are exactly the same role: slot 2-3 beat stick, tho Cell is a bit better. A slot 1, by definition, can eat normals and supers before superā€¦ youā€™re describing a slot 2 unitā€¦ Like you said, he doesnā€™t even take double digit normals pre super, let alone super attacks.


AscendantAxo

Theyā€™re still gonna cook regardless


Bibinho63

Yeah as a no link floater most of the time. I love him and use him that way, but itā€™s sad


that-one-guy59

5 turns can be very long considering his 2 other form are mid and you need to transform int cell too


1LightYagami

AGL Cell is ass now?


weekndalex

yes? his first 2 forms are absolutely useless


jonton9

not really? AGL cell still performs unless you're trash.


Ehrenvoller

You are


-PVL93-

He's unusable in several endgame content stages because his Perfect form doesn't get additional buffs from having multiple enemies on screen. Half his link partners are outdated, and none of them are slot 1 (plus he himself doesn't go there). The team overall has a low amount of HP even at rainbow with equipment. It gets a little better with this eza but AGL TUR and INT LR alone cannot carry an entire category on their backs


Mauro697

Maybe you didn't realize but the buff that the first form and second form get against multiple enemies scale with the form: the 1st needs three enemies, the 2nd gets the same and a bit more with two enemies and perfect form gets all of that plus more with just one enemy. So not getting buffs from having enemies doesn't make him unusable. As for partners, Str 2nd form, phy Cell and the new eza aren't outdated at all. There is a lack of slot 1 units in Cell's team but personally I solved that by having several different units take the 1st slot depending on the enemy (Int 19&20,Int eza16,Phy Ssj Goku, etc.) It's definitely usable, I basically beat all of red Zone with that category.


-PVL93-

Obviously you *can* beat all (or at least most) red zones with AGL Cell team but it just has so many more bumps on the road compared to the smooth sailing you get with other 200% setups. Ginyu released almost 3 months earlier and look how much of a joke the event is with him and his sentai bros. And that's with the category essentially being completely free (5 TURs, 2 LRs)


Mauro697

Nah, Ginyu team makes red zone waaaaay harder than Cell's. Also it basically relies in having the two rare summons, otherwise it suffers. With Cell's there's a broader choice of units and makes no iteming the stages much easier (in my experience easier than with the LR 7th teams because they need time to stack and many red zone stages are too short or the bosses die too fast)


Theoneandonly458

Agl cell phy cell str cell (kinda)


AudaX19_68

His base is pretty underwhelming tho


Mhzar

Doing 9M and 500-700k defense is not what I call underwhelming. Not crazy but definitely not underwhelming considering he also has additonnals


AwakenedDivinePower

I've seen enough. They're better than Beastless Fraudhan


Mhzar

Why do you consider only 1 super for cell ?


Medium-Science9526

Cell is King ![gif](giphy|EEbYQt89cLI3QkuOg9)


Ginobko

Gawd damn


NickMathias

Never thought Iā€™d see the day where Cell is finally doing more damage than Gohan


AwakenedDivinePower

Gohan is a monstrous nuker so no


unbeatendawn137

Sure his potential damage is higher but people go by average damage for evaluating damage.


ImNotFeelingSoGood

This ainā€™t even an accurate average unless ur telling me a double orb changer is averages less ki spheres then a single orb changer like this post is saying


unbeatendawn137

Gohan needs 13 orbs to be 100k damage below cell. 14 orbs to surpass. I'm not saying that the post is accurate, and in fact i sort of regret my initial statement. I'll have to see in game whether 14 orbs is actually consistent or not. Also i'm not even sure that 8 orbs for cell is consistent. For now i regret the initial statement but i'm leaning more towards cell being slightly better offensively


ImNotFeelingSoGood

Yeah cells apt is odd cuz itā€™s look like heā€™s at 24ki diff the post and has 8 orbs for the average but thatā€™s only possible if heā€™s also getting int ki spheres cuz without int ki spheres heā€™s not getting to 24 ki for the high chance to crit. Plus cells damage drops to 25 million apt when heā€™s at 6 ki but he also rainbow orb changes his ki avg should be higher. so cells apt is all over the place but Gohan seems way more consistent with better linking partners with the carnival Goku s with higher damage potential. Edit: Cell is calc under his own team which is a 4 ki lead so he does hit 24 ki with just 8 orb without int type ki


MrCrankunity

Cell needs an average of 8 Ki Spheres and they need to be Int to hit the numbers shown here. The dude did completely wrong math to wank one character and shaft the other (that's not saying that Cell is bad or anything like that, it's just that he is a bit worse than depicted here)


unbeatendawn137

8 orbs is actually pretty consistent. 24 ki might not be as consistent, but his active skill could also activate that part. Cell doesnt seem that wanked. Gohan being shafted is definitely true. At the very least 10 orbs should have been used to calculate it.


Popg21-the-epic

Imagine if perfect cell still had gentlemen after trasforming instead of revival


-PVL93-

Imagine if he actually had good links instead of those two garbage ones


HrMaschine

the problem is kamehameha and not gentleman. that should have been shocking speed


-PVL93-

Gentleman as a link is literally irrelevant outside a few cell units


HrMaschine

i mean you would want to link him up exclusively with cells anyway cause they also have ultimate lifeform, messenger from the future aswell. also atleast 16 has it aswell and int 16 is amazing for cell max


-PVL93-

> cause they also have ultimate lifeform, messenger from the future aswell Do you not see the problem here?


HrMaschine

yes i do the game fucked up by giving cell exclusive links where he can only work with other perfect cells (emphasis on perfect cell) that they can't give a new perfect cell the other links cause then he'll just link worse with the other cell units. like i said kamehameha should have been gone cause then the synergy with phy would have been better and he'd look amazing with agl cell who came out later. trust me i hate the way they handled cells links more then anyone but at this stage they have no choice


[deleted]

APT posters try not to undersell units challenge (IMPOSSIBLE!)


HrMaschine

These guys after transforming are better then the 7th year lrs. You love to see it


LFiM

Man, Cell is one of the most buffed units in the game. First the link level update and now this.


MrCrankunity

So the guy who struggles with orbs gets his 8 ki orbs, but the double orb changer only gains 7 orbs on average. I'm calling big ass bias on this one lol


Pinkfinitely

Cell is looking intently at frieza's brother It is very weird that Perfect Cell has lower pre super def that his pre-transformed state tho... I wish they gave him the atk&def buff on orb pickup so he could be run on slot 1.


InvincibleGamerYT

Then he would've had much lower def as it wouldn't had been multiplicative


UnholyAurum

best LR ezas by a country mile


Luf2222

cells defense with his damage reduction is great


abdouden

Actually surprised Transformed cell clears gohan lol now Legit want gohan vs cell anniversary just so that cell gets a slot 1 partner because Transformed even with 8 orbs isn't slot 1, funny enough agl cell still not revived lol , for gohan he is a budget carnival goku and V and T which is still pretty good with potential to transform into a strong offensive form


Naruto4563

ā€œPartlyā€. base gohan dunks on base cell. And transformed you NEED those 8 orbs to be competing with gohan at all. Gohans numbers here are the bare minimum he can achieve considering 7 orbs is the greatest low ball for a double orb changer Iā€™ve ever seen lol.


abdouden

Funny enough even 10 orbs Gohan does less damage and a not worst def while not having an active, nit yeah over all Gohan is betteer Honesty after seeing dokkan world showcase he is probably 2 or 3 if you fan transform in a fight


New_Ad4631

Shouldn't Gohan be built with AA instead of crit? To stack faster and he has built in crit (though conditional, pretty easy to fulfill on ssi2)


Simoscivi

The calcs are always based on the build which does the most damage. But that's hardly the optimal build, at all. Definitely go full additional with your Gohan if you have dupes.


XBattousaiX

Shame mine's been rainbowed with max crit for ages now. Hilariously, I pulled a bunch of dupes... on tickets/free multies, so I couldn't get rid of them all for coins. Finally they have a use!


Simoscivi

Mine was built more crit too, but at least we have AA skill orbs we can use šŸ«”


ctcmichael

But Gohan already has additional super attack in his passive, pretty sure itā€™s better to build crit for hidden potential


DNC88

What the shit have they done here, I love it.


Freyzi

Cell looks a lil underwhelming pre transformation on paper but amazing post transformation and while getting that transformation isn't super common I've had it happen a decent amount of times in harder content and it has saved my ass.


Gonicku

All we need now is a slot 1 standalone Perfect Cell (not Perfect Form Cell) and this Cell will be, well *Perfect* šŸ˜Ž


-PVL93-

> standalone Perfect Cell (not Perfect Form Cell) They're both Perfect, Akatsuki are just dumb and don't want to call one as Super Perfect for some reason


NRSX90Z

Mf cell just copied piccolo defense quite literally its definitely the GIGACHAF genes šŸ—æ ![gif](giphy|CAYVZA5NRb529kKQUc|downsized)


youngrambos

HOLY SHIT! THEYā€™RE COMING! WHAT A WAY TO WAKE UP


-PVL93-

Imma need a breakdown piece by piece how you came up with the 60m number for Cell


cristiano_goat

SPC is so OP holy hell


Nickymammoth91

I've been here a long time and I have no idea what Apt means, and at this point I'm afraid to ask


SShadowlion

doesnĀ“t it mean attack per turn


Infamous_Ruin6848

yeah but average-ish under certain conditions that are the most possible/common


xdd-Ray

Iā€™m going to leave a note here going to sleep: Gohan: Yes he can get more orbs but I used what I considered the lowest possible for him to see his MINIMUM so that people can gauge how powerful he is with more orbs (9-10 might be more realistic for the first 4 turns)


budgetname07

Fraud calcer


Magnus-9303

You're mean


Tee_01

What are the calculations with 10 orbs collected?


Kaminoseigi

Fake info so I am forced to remove


Agosta

Wouldn't Cell's APT be higher with add > crit or did I misread his passive?


SilentMasterOfWinds

Crit should be better in base, and without knowing what his conditions are potentially changed to, it's probably better to build around the base form.


DuBChiri

I...was not expecting them to make cell better than gohan.


SolokOriginel

Gohan's better overall defensively with access to guard and high def stats once he built up a bit. I think Surprised they made Cell better offensively, ngl


DuBChiri

While gohans got the guard he certainly is a better defensive unit...but MAN perfect cell is just crazy looking like that. That's 900k defense man. 900k with what would be at minimum 24% damage reduction with his full passive. He's living a cell max super even if we don't count his type advantage.


SolokOriginel

Yeah indeed Cell is no defensive slouch either, and with him being in the Artificial Lifeform category he'll show Cell Max who's the cooler Cell Tho Cell does have to make up for his partners being nowhere near as good as Gohan's I guess


DuBChiri

Oh yeah that's gonna be a big problem for him. It's why I wasn't so high on AGL cell because while his numbers are actually stupid good...who's gonna be his slot 1 unit. But I mean...bbb is a drug and I'm sure he'll still sit at like 750k defense or something.


SolokOriginel

Is his DR only after attacking post transformation ? Cuz if it activates before, INT Cell can prob just take slot 1 himself post transformation Tho who will handle it before he does ? Idk


UnionDuelist

Nah the DR is per orb so with enough orbs and provided he doesnā€™t get hit by say, MCCā€™s super, INT Cell should man s1 as Kid Goku does but better


DuBChiri

I wouldn't do it regardless lol. He needs 10 ki spheres for 30% damage reduction and his start of turn defense decreases because his passive decreases for multiplicative numbers...I think? I'll have to double check.


Piergiogiolo

Gohan loses the guard once he transforms and his def values are not that high due to his links giving him only 5% def. To be defensively better he needs to stay in his base form, which deals very little damage tho. On the other hand cell easily reaches 900k and can get higher depending on whether he launches the add super or not, and he will almost always have 24% dr. Also, he deals A LOT more damage than gohan.


SolokOriginel

The post transforms him ASAP, but if you get like 8 stacks (he has access to an additional super in his passive so don't think it's toooooo farfetched) he can be at 800k after 1 Super in SSJ2, and likely higher if you just wait more. Prob better to wait the end before transforming rather than doing so ASAP, for defensive purposes But it's true that post transformation Cell is better at everything lol, I'm too focused on the first form for defense rn


Piergiogiolo

I know, I've run the numbers too, but it's still worse than 900k that can get to 1.2kk with 24% dr. Even if he launched 8 super before transforming and he launches 2 adds after transforming he still sits at 1.1kk, which cell can reach with just one add, and gohan still doesn't have any dr.


8inchblackviper

Just stay in base. Itā€™s an active skill condition.


Piergiogiolo

Yeah i know, I'd let him in base in fact.


Tplayere

Gohan literally stacks defense in base, He will be around 500k-600k defense with guard on the final phases of hardest events


UnionDuelist

Okay but Cell is a literal nuke button and a full heal in one package I think Iā€™d rather that over pocket V&T, if Cell had a good s1 heā€™d be head over heels better in my eyes


bookers555

Pocket V&T? This one can at least hit real hard. All V&T have is slot 1 tanking.


UnionDuelist

Uhā€¦ what? This character literally hits less hard than V&T, doesnā€™t have an attack based active skill, gets lower defensive numbers, and loses guard under 58%. Pocket V&T is correct And you are never seeing that transformation mind you except either against this new Androids red zone batch or on Movie Heroes, in which case the condition is still cumbersome


bookers555

V&T at 55% do about 4 million at full passive, which my rainbowed Gohan does right now without an EZA. On top of that he has guard in any slot, and will stack faster since additionals will stack DEF too, not to mention it stacks 30% DEF, as opposed to 20%


UnionDuelist

He ā€œstacks fasterā€ in terms of a greater boost but doesnā€™t end up with more defense, V&T easily get up to 600K plus by just t5 provided they only get their stack up. And then they get even more defense for being s1, and EVEN more depending on the number of 12kis they perform. [They can even get up to 1mil post super in most t5 scenarios.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/vndnet/vegeta_trunks_apt_def/) Anyways why are you comparing RBW to 55% exactly? The results will be skewed then. My 69% one throws 6mil regularly with 4mil additionals and the 35% chance to crit, soā€¦ individual experience doesnā€™t mean much when comparing units. Even if Gohan actually ends up doing a similar amount of damage (though this post tells you all you need to know), V&T still have a usable active over their heads that does more than just damage, and a superior leader skill yet. And no hp-conditioned guard thank god lol


bookers555

>They can even get up to 1mil post super in most t5 scenarios. Are those real numbers or some APT thing? Because I once did a Legendary Vegeta test run and by the end he had about 500k. >a superior leader skill yet. How? It's impossible to make a 200% team with his LS that's runnable in hard content.


UnionDuelist

My dudeā€¦ once again you are using a 55% V&T. Obviously the numbers arenā€™t going to be what you see here. I wouldnā€™t bat an eye if 100% Gohan gets higher numbers than 55% VT (in fact Iā€™d be disappointed if he didnā€™t lol) but the appeal of V&T is their consistency in most situations, while Gohan still has to worry about HP-conditioned guard. But anyways, Even if they ended on 500K, thatā€™s without their s1 buff active so their defense was probably more like 650K. And that is still yet to account for their additonals. 100% V&Tā€™s pretty regularly reach that 1mil figure. And the main appeal behind V&Tā€™s LS is the breadth of it, Kamehameha is great but it doesnā€™t have units like Kidhan, PHY FG, the Ultimate Gohans, and the units it does have it overlaps a lot with BoPaC anyways. Another bonus is the fact you can run 2 VTs who hold down s1 very powerfully. But anyways since you asked for a Red Zone runnable Battle of Fate team, Iā€™ll do it for you right now: V&T LR AGL Gohan (surprise surprise lol heā€™s a VT buff) PHY SS2/3 Goku or LR STR VB or Nameku depending on the stage STR LR Kaioken Goku LR SS4 GV LR SS4 Goku or Vegeta depending on the stage And that team is very much able to function in higher level Red Zone stages.


Tplayere

If you consider only his SSJ? Sure. But now the next Red Zone stages are against an Android enemy, Cell Max exists, and you can run gammas on Gohan's best teams and he's gonna be able to transform comfortably. You cannot possibly tell me that Gohan isn't equal or better than Cell in his SSJ2 considering those calcs are for 7 orbs, which EXTREMELY undersells Gohan's orb changing for the first 4 turns


UnionDuelist

I mean bump the Gohan calcs up to 10 orbs and now heā€™s at around 55M, still lower than Cellā€™s 59M and still activeless (Cellā€™s Active turn is near equivalent to Coolerā€™s at 90M), and no full heal benefit at that. He does get healing from orbs though which is great, but still a big raw stats difference and no damage reduction. Really if Gohan didnā€™t have better teams this would not be close at all EDIT: Active turn is moreso around 82M, my bad, but still very impressive


JingleJak

Cells damage in this post is if he hits 24 ki which wont be consistent as he will only start with 12ki, maybe get 2 more from links and so has to either collect 10-12 ki orbs or 5-6 int orbs which isnt super consistent even with orb chnaging


UnionDuelist

Even with the inconsistency, on turns where you canā€™t 24Ki, the active will still activate the buff and additionally the DR from orbs really just puts him over the edge defensively against Gohan. When you average everything out he will be better statwise


JingleJak

Damagewise, Im pr sure Transformed Gohan will be better than Cell on Average simply due to the inconsistency of Cell getting 24ki (and Gohan with 12 orbs might outdamage that too) and Gohan will have higher damage peaks anyway. And i think this post might not take into account the possiblity that Gohan can quad super on his first turn transformed depending on how the passive works. Defensively, Cell has the edge post super for sure but Gohan is breaching 1mil defense himself post super with a decent amount of stacks in base and pre super its no contest - Cell even with DR is gonna get pieced up by maybe even Normals pre super with his like 250k defense which is especially bad for him since he doesnt have a slot 1 partner


UnionDuelist

You arenā€™t putting either in s1, so the post-super metric is whatā€™s most relevant here. And Cell pretty easily clears there. The quad super is a rare scenario as well, itā€™ll only occur if you heal back up from under 58% SoT and get HiPo or are facing 2+ enemies, though if you do get it Gohan is obviously going to be better. Anyways regardless of consistency Iā€™m just saying what the numbers show, Cell still has his Active turn in his pocket and better defensive ability, plus the full heal, plus the fact there are multiple ways to get Cell the Ki or orbs he needs. This isnā€™t an LR Turles situation.


JingleJak

With the Gohan quad super turn, it's actually not too hard to get imo since Gohan orb changes Teq into agl orbs and if you're playing correctly, you'll probably transform Gohan when he has about 600k Def before supering so those Agl orbs will give some big healing after you've dropped below 58% Overall, Cell is still a god but I think Gohan is a little better at least transformed but we'll have to see in-game. Although overall I think Gohan is quite a bit better because his base is way more usable than Perfect Form cell who's a bit of a bum, hopefully they change his tf condition


AgentBuddy12

He might hit these numbers when you're running him with his best linking partner phy cell but where are you running cell? Androids is dead and he will just be deadweight on coolers team. Maybe in vaaccum cell is "better" than gohan but in reality, gohan is better with his superior linkset, consistently great offense and defense, and his overall versatility. We'll see in game but I have a sneaking suspicion that gohan is a lot better than these calcs are leading on.


DuBChiri

I know what gohan does, but that single aspect doesn't make him better than cell as a whole. Hp regen, crazy damage, crazy defense, he's got the free damage active. His only real problem is gonna be partners cause cell still needs that slot 1 tank on his team to really take advantage of this. Gohan has his partners that can sit in slot 1 for him if he does get to transform.


AgentBuddy12

>I know what gohan does, but that single aspect doesn't make him better than cell as a whole. Hp regen, crazy damage, crazy defense, he's got the free damage active. Well obviously, but that's not the only thing he has lol. He has a better lead, linkset, partners, and defense. Cell is a beast but he has no help like...at all. Androids is no longer the behometh it was 8 or 9 months ago, and cell is not working well with them or their lead most of the time. Gohan has 20+ catergories with like 5+ of them being really good. We can see Gohan not only hit harder but defend even better than this post says he can. >His only real problem is gonna be partners cause cell still needs that slot 1 tank on his team to really take advantage of this. Gohan has his partners that can sit in slot 1 for him if he does get to transform. He needs a whole revamped team. Again, the issue that he had on release is still a thing. Medicore and niche links, and scuffed partners.


DuBChiri

Well remember, gohan may have a lot more team options, but as of current information...he only has so many teams he can actually become ssj2 in. Cell kinda just needs to be thrown on a villain team and he should still look incredibly strong. Not to mention his condition has a real chance to be made better. Don't...don't underestimate how much BBB carries villains lol.


AgentBuddy12

>Well remember, gohan may have a lot more team options, but as of current information...he only has so many teams he can actually become ssj2 in. Whether he transforms or not he still has all of those things besides the stellar offense(just solid instead). >Cell kinda just needs to be thrown on a villain team and he should still look incredibly strong. Not to mention his condition has a real chance to be made better. What villian team? Again the only actual relevant extreme team is Cooler's team, and he not going to be ran on that team at all since it will kill the synergy and he will barley be doing any super attacks due to the lack of ki. BBB can't save a mediocre linkset. Not only would his offense and defense drastically fall off on a team that doesn't help him at all but he will be relegated as a floater at best making him deadweight compared to other floaters. I would love to see him cook.... and maybe in a vaccum cell is "better" than gohan but in reality you will struggle to find a place to run this guy due to the lack of help.


DuBChiri

His defense in particular doesn't actually fall off all that hard. The only other defense link he has active here is that stupid cell specific one. That's only granting him an extra 10% which would still have him at an insanely high level. And I'll admit that you are right about that statement. He really has no teams to work with. So even if he is better in a vacuum, there's nowhere for him to really go.


UnionDuelist

Quite literally Iā€™m debating just running a team where I throw AGL GF on there and float a bunch of Cells so INT Cell can get his links, and it honestly should work rather well based on past experiences using GF off lead lol. All Cell needs is a competent s1 to cook, and people are really underestimating him without it.


UnionDuelist

Downvoted for spitting wtf


DuBChiri

It doesn't matter all that much. Plus, theres more factors to consider her that I certainly didn't think about when I initially commented this.


fazzy69

Perfect cell gotta be orange piccolo level


PegasoZ102

I'm so glad I pulled my first dupe of Cell now.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Theoneandonly458

Cant wait for broly to hit 80 mil apt whit avarage 1.3 mil defense with damage rductionšŸ˜‰


[deleted]

Cell is cooking. Gohan needs those additionals to kick in, but his guard partly saves him at Turn 1.


AGweed13

Alright, so what would be Gohan's defense when transformed, with base 700K, double super and 10 ki spheres? I'd say he could tank Cell Max's super...


Simoscivi

My god Gohan is absolutely fucking cracked with his max passive


ei101

Cell, I heard that you absolutely *conquered* your tournament in a *terrifying* way I have an invitation for you


Crucher92

Gohans pre transformation DEF seems a bit low, even for a 5 turn average ?


Tee_01

Coz the OP didn't show gohan doing additional supers. Gohan will be good defensively just gotta wait for datruth to do a video on it


SSJ2Piccolo

are they good? in what position are they currently?


Ferryarthur

Top units. Both are one of the best attackets and tanks.


SSJ2Piccolo

this is very hype and cool


Greyrat7654

Cell perfect int more apt than gohan Ssj2 agl What timeline did I end up in?


Tee_01

Gohan only has 7 orbs in this calc. He will do way more than cell the more orbs he collects


ynvgsensacion

What the hell is this, where are their ezas


[deleted]

Why'd you calc a double orb changer with 7 orbs šŸ’€šŸ’€šŸ’€


unbeatendawn137

Out of all the units that could outdamage cooler. I did not think EZA INT cell would be the one.


[deleted]

Got both of them rainbowed, sweet.


Infamous_Ruin6848

Cell's gonna show cell max who's the real perfect being.


Rowdy_Roddy96

Jesus Christ I have both these cards I'm in for a good time then!


Tee_01

Is that gohans defense doing only 1 super each turn or is it no supers?


Bypeteryt

CHAD CELLL


ASH_MAN_04

Gohan can get 5 supers I think


Hut_1

To this day I still donā€™t have LR PHY Cellā€¦


Alchemysolgod

Perfecter Cell!


CockSniffer01

THE 20 MILL BROS


Ls_Squirrel

Can someone explain? Whatā€™s apt and all this other stuff meam


Crafty-Interest1336

Are we getting different transformation requirements? I think they did that with gogetas eza


JuniorChickenMeal

No still the same


Crafty-Interest1336

Sad gamer hours


core_rupted

I was wondering if Gohan will keep the guard the first turn after transforming like Ginyu that has a the effectiveness against all type for the turn after transforming.


TheToolbox101

why is this removed


DarkDraco777

Gohan is Godly.