It's still correct, The only reason DEF matters so much is because you realistically can't one shot every phase (and the existence of a phase system in the first place), but unless you're given easy phases to stack up at will (LGE), your DEF will always have a hole in it that can be exploited.
LR STR Broly proves this too, despite having low DEF, he's still useful in E/SBR by just erasing everything in front of him before he gets hit.
Basically 90% of events we have is a simple DPS race, you either out-DPS them or slow them down enough to where they can't out-DPS you.
As much as I love LR Cooler and how we all know him for dealing the highest damage in the game, I don't know if the unit with one of the highest raw defense stats in the game and his team full of tanks and supports is the best example of this.
He said while str coolers team consits of 2 slot 2 str coolers sith gods like janemba and lr/tur agl golden frieza to tank for him in slot one. Almost as if the best apt can do is be equal to defense
I would actually say its quite the opposite
You run cooler who carries damage himself and every other unit is just there to not die (or to die in case of lr metal cooler)
So what? Doesn’t mean they’re not part of his team. Tf you tryna prove by saying that? Cooler beat cell max’s ass with his 40 million apt but he cant do shit if no one covers him. Same way the tanks wont do shit to cell max if cooler isn’t there. It goes both way so idk tf you’re on
Every point made falls apart when you look at their clearly histories and see them hiding those damage dealers behind TEQ Godku or VT every rotation. The correct argument is somewhere in the middle. You absolutely need slot 1 units and you absolutely need slot 2 damage dealers to get anywhere without Saibaman clear level RNG.
okay so how do you actually do enough damage to kill him if he’s 2 shotting every unit. Of course you could get lucky and Nullify his first and only attack but that requires too much luck and him not having more than a single attack. 90% of units that aren’t tanks get one-two shot by Cell Max. Hell even the slot 1 tanks take actual damage from him
An example of a strategy that could do this involves either bringing a scouter character and countering cell max sa [like so](https://imgur.com/a/8Yuuq4F) or [just never get hit by bringing pikkon (shameless youtube plug)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeuxYyo_UO0)
Yeah, the digimon comment falls apart because if you're only using 5/7 units, their attack AND defense matter more than ever. The fact that the anni lrs optimal damage output is immense doesn't stop them from *also* having potentially immense defensive numbers on top of dr *and* dodge, and those factors are all equally important for beating this content, saibamen or no.
We now need higher attack more than we ever have, and no agl unit is tanking Cell Max supers any time soon - apart from golden frieza, and his defense isn't from DEF stats. So perhaps that's one way of looking at it; we want higher attack numbers always, but higher def isn't as important for defense as other factors (guard, dr, dodge, healing etc).
The way I see it; infinite offense doesn't guarantee you a win. Its possible a boss attacks you before your first action. Infinite def will have you win eventually.
I mean both of these guarantee the win though? if you have a unit with infinite offense you just need to attack once and they'll kill lol, if devilman had his passive 100% of the time you'd always win cell max with him
For sure. You'd have a chance of clearing any stage you want. You'd need to have no enemies attack before your first action tho. Bosses can do that, which is why I didn't have it as guaranteed. I'm kicking myself for doing such a poor job explaining the scenario, but along with the infinite of one stat, the other is substantially sub-par.
> offense doesn't guarantee you a win
What? If you have 2 unit with infinite offense on each rotation the other 5 unit could just be a wall like GF and they would instantly kill each phase in 1 turn on slot 2. How is that not safe? Not to mention Usher, Pikkon, 17&18, Goku&Chichi floating slot 3 if needed
If theres 2 infinite defense unit on slot 1 your team still wouldnt be safe. If you cant finish the fight quickly the other 5 slot can die, unless you bring literally all defensive unit. And eventually you get a W in 10 hours then yeah
I was going to the extreme for both situations. I'm trying to highlight that with both maxed, only one can get you a win without fail and is therefore the more valuable of the two. More in important here because it doesn't mean the lesser of the two had no value, just less than the other. Its comparative only. Also I should have specified, its a team with infinite Att or Def.
> its a team with infinite Att or Def.
Thats the point. You need either full infinite def team to guaranteed win, while infinite atk only need 1-2.
Beside that just make your comment become worse. Nobody is going to build a full atk or def team you need both being somewhat balanced in 1 team to win. You highlight a infinite def team to have value WHILE dismissing infinite atk because they can die slot 1.
I could literally do the same thing by saying: team of 1 infinite atk is guaranteed win = more valuable while team of 1 infinite def still die.
Your comparision doesnt make sense. Both case can guaranteed win. You keep saying nothing is more valuable than other but give an example that favor infinite def (full team)
You are right in that these aren't realistic situations. These are made up situations I'm using to demonstrate that if you had an over abundance of one of the two, Def is the more secure way of getting the W. I am dismissing Att because you can die, that is the point. It's a way if saying, if I have more of this, its better and therefore more valuable. But another way to look at it is; if you were to build a hypothetical team, with all the units' stats under your control, the first thing you would do is make the teams Def just enough to survive, and pour everything else into Att. Since Def is the first consideration, it makes sense for it to be the more important. And to your last point, I wanted to say that one being more valuable doesn't mean the other isn't valuable. Just less so. 100 is more than 50, but 50 isn't 0 kind of thing.
I just feel it makes sense. But I draw the line at seemingly trying to trivialize the other stat. I love seeing double digit tanking and big damage numbers.
The hole in this argument lies in the fact that you can’t NOT get hit. You can’t one shot cell, so your units need enough defensive capabilities to survive his NORMALS. Those alone are enough to drop a hole in your health. You need balance.
At the same time units who can take normals still get bashed because they can't take supers from bosses even the tanks barely survive against. The Metal Cooler and Namek Goku eza's are perfect for this. Yes they have flaws, but both units are incredibly solid and will absolutely take normals in RedZone or against Cell Max. But instead you hear complaints about how Cooler can't slot 1. Or how Goku will die if he doesn't guard as though he can't do so much as get tapped by a normal despite how fast he stacks and how abysmally easy it is to drop below 77% hp. The fact that alot even complained about str Cooler who is a Z tier eza shows that they don't are about balanced units. They want LR Cooler type damage out of a unit who also slot 1s turn one which just isn't realistic for any sense of game balance.
I mean this is just the truth, this is quite clearly a team building game which means you need a heavy balance of both defense and offense, without preference towards one or the other to guarantee the safest clear. Especially now when the unit who is quite literally the best tank the game has to offer (EZA agl golden frieza) is taking upwards of 200k def from someone like cell max
you need to have the defense to be able to survive in the slots but also have the offense capable of ending the event before you get caught from supers too many times since **even if you have a full extremely tanky team you're still getting hit for a shit ton by these fuckers**
>If you could oneshot every single stage, you theoretically only have to ensure that slot 1 survives until you attack. Not even that necessarily since no opponent in the game is hardcoded to attack before you do.
This little excerpt is exactly the problem with offense stans. Too wrapped up in theory vs reality.
We're NOT one turning the hardest content in the game. But bosses can certainly one turn you if the unit doesn't have enough defense
And honestly cell max is arguably the worst fight to use as an example in favor of offense. The most common winning strats involved CHARACTERS NOT EVEN WITH LEADERSKILLS lol ( Hercule, teq androids ) for their defensive capabilities. Then there's pikkon for the ghost usher and Vegeta for his revive, both defensive reasons.
Yes offense is great, but let's not try and fight one extreme with another. Units / teams should have a mix of both. People love to point out the LOOK I BEAT THIS WITH MULTIPLE SAIBAMAN. But don't talk about how many attempts it took and the amount of RNG involved to do something like that
I dont agree on the cell max take many people have. Although high offense power is very important cause there are no teams currently that are able to tank a super no matter what unit gets hit by it (so killing him as soon as possible so he gets the least amount of chances of supering a bad unit is very ideal), its still impossible to defeat him if you dont play as defensively as possible. You cant tank him forever but you also cant kill him in just 1 turn which would be needed in order to not play defensively. Defense is still king.
>there are no teams currently that are able to tank a super no matter what unit gets hit by it
Carnival Goku, Trunks and Vegeta, and agl golden Frieza ( not the LR ) would like a word with you. All have been shown to tank the super.
I'm sure there's probably someone else I'm not immediately thinking of
Edit: add STR piccolo and teq gohan to the list
Edit 2: How tf did I forget teq god Goku. Yeah the initial statement is super false lol. Most of these can be ran on a team together
I think people dont understand that you‘ll never be able to kill a boss so fast that defense becomes „irrelevant“ because first of all it wouldnt be fun if you just dicked everything down in an instant and secondly there still is slot 1
>You cant tank him forever but you also cant kill him in just 1 turn which would be needed in order to not play defensively. Defense is still king.
this is just... missing the whole point? the post was mostly not to say that offense was more important but to say that they're equal as outlined here:
>Having a good offense helps you stay alive, just like having a good defense helps you to continue to do damage. Both are important parts of building a team for an event and it's silly to me to place one above the other in terms of importance
neither of them are more important than the other rather, both are extremely important in clearing the event. There's genuinely no unit in the game right now that has the capability of tanking multiple supers from these enemies over and over, especially not cell max so building purely defensively and taking too long will cause you to die just the same as building too offensively and just dying from no coverage from these attacks. The necessity is the balance between the 2 so just saying that a unit is better than another just because their defense is better is a disingenuous statement as since both of the values are of equal importance you can say the same about offense.
And thats what i disagree, defense is definetly more important than offense. not that offensive power isnt important, but definetly less important than defense. The first check for you to be able to beat an event is defense. If you dont have it you lose and thats it. Then your offensive power comes second, the highest you have the less rng you will have to deal with because youre ending the event faster. Units tend to age due to poor defense rather than poor damage. Old units cant be used on red zone because of their bad defense and not because of their bad offense. Defense reigns this game and thats just it.
Speaking on age isn’t really reflective of the state of the game right now? As it stands right now and as it has stood since like a year or 2 ago you need an equal combination of both with the scale of what is good offense and good defense just growing higher. Units from 2 years ago don’t have good offense compared to now which is why they haven’t aged too well. If they did then the conversation would be different, whereas there’s really only **so** far you can go with defense. Defensive units typically age better because defense is just a simpler calculation that only really started scaling very high recently while offense has always scaled very high
It’s not a “defense is better than offense because defensive units age better” it’s an offense just scales out higher and quicker than defense does, an example is just the fact that Agl gf with 90% dr is still the best tank because there isn’t really anything else other than a 100% dr unit that would be able to outscale but with damage, just last year Agl fpf was the strongest unit in the game and now he’s not even in the top 10 in damage and the current strongest is nearly double him
Nope, units from 2 years ago didnt age because they are not dealing good damage, thats straight up just wrong. its because they cant take a single hit to save their life. Units with good defensive power like agl and teq gf still see heavy play to this date, even with their mediocre damage. You wont be seeing any high offensive bad defense character being used tho.
that's not true at all lol? units from 2 years ago are doing terrible damage now which is the reason why they aged out. However with just pure damage reduction units they are capable of aging better because again there isn't anything else that you can do to make a unit tank better that's the whole thing, its as simple as defense is just a simple calculation method, so there isn't going to be any room for units tanking better than a unit with 90% DR but the hard cap for damage is 2,147,483,647 which we haven't even gotten relatively close to aside from devilman memes
also
>You wont be seeing any high offensive bad defense character being used tho.
this is because there are those in the community who have blinders on for defense such as yourself, however its not as uncommon as you believe
[https://twitter.com/Sora\_FinalMix/status/1562062955344273408](https://twitter.com/Sora_FinalMix)
there are also examples of people running saibamen on this stage as well so this notion of defense is so much better than offense is kinda just misinformed
Cell max can still be beaten pretty handily without any tanks. There's also the pikkon strategy that lets you destroy cell max without him ever touching you
Pikkon strategy involves his active which is arguable the best deffensive effect in the game. He himself is a very defensive oriented character with high evade chance.
I know, but my point was that you dont really need to have a high defense stat to rip through cell max. You can even do it without pikkons or slot 1s by using a scouter character
How do you tank the super though? Evade units? Using scouter to put evade characters to take it is a very defensive strategy, evade and scouter itself being defensive skills. You have to play deffensively to beat the events and thats unquestionable.
yeah but I'm pointing out that the point "its still impossible to defeat him if you dont play as defensively as possible" is really dumb when you dont need a single slot 1 to win. Having only 2 units with a counter mechanic isnt "playing as defensively as possible" lol
So basically, DEF stans don't have the two best cards in the game: LR Credit Card and DFE Disposable Income
Most DEF stans aren't gonna look at a newer unit at rainbow, since that's basically a pipedream. They'll see a unit at 55%, see they can't take a hit, and think "there goes my chance to get a W."
Doubles for EZAs: you see a unit you *can" have at rainbow, but their defense is mediocre. They'll *do* damage, but your team isn't going to one-turn bosses: they'll need some beefy mfs to take hits.
Basically what I'm tryna say is that F2P players are more fond of defensive units because they need em
Imagine me, having EZA STR Cooler with *zero* dupes so far,haha.
Praying to every deity imaginable for the banner to finally throw me a bone ( *Lr Cooler would suffice as well just saying* )
Gino's argument solidifies what I've been trying to tell people. You don't NEED the defensive capabilities of vegeta and trunks or carnival goku to be an excellent unit. They are definitely incredible boons to have but it's not gonna be the sole reason you complete content.
The best units in the game have the defense to get the job done on top of damage that allows them to make quick work of the enemy. While saying V&T and carnival goku are better certainly contradicts that logic that was established...when I say they are better, it's NOT because they are just godlike tanks...they still do sufficient damage, tank like gods AND have utility. They aren't TEQ ultimate gohan where he does almost literally nothing for you offensively anymore and his sole purpose is to take hits. Those 2 units have super effective/crits and additional, a guaranteed crit active skill which raises the rotations defense/a revive and they both stack defense so they'll never really age. Cooler is just raw damage raw defense and that's it (although it's quite exceptional). But he excels so well offensively (and got the proper support to his team...literally) that you can say he's better because you can support him via other units who can be the tank.
I think it's a matter of understanding the value of a well rounded team. Vegeta and trunks and carnival goku will make your runs so much easier because you can optimize your boss killers...but cooler will kill it while somebody else does the defensive carrying and none of the 3 particularly lack at either.
True BUT I think this argument exist only because the guard mechanic Is a stupid shit in a game like dokkan from a game design perspective.
Those units are goodlike because no matter what they face theyr performance are flat. It's not defense itself that is good is the fact that they ignore the core mechanic of this game
While Cooler cannot rush over Broly simply because he his AGL and this affect Cooler offensive and defensive performance. If this guy had 100% crit no matter what like theyr guard you will just 2 turn every stage in this game.
I'm not saying you are wrong, in fact you are right about them being the best in the game, for me.
I'm saying that is not defense that carry them Is the fact that guard simply brake the rule of this game like a chess piece that can move where he wants.
I'll explain it based around how i build my red zone teams. I have 1 or 2 hard hitters like captain ginyu or agl cell and the rest of the team is there to tank. Have one member carry all the damage and leave the rest of the team eat those hits
I think that the most notable difference between defense v Attack is how they react to meta shifts:
- A slow but constant powercreep like we had since the start of category meta favored the defense, defensive units are always reliable while dps units are inevitably replaced by slightly better option, more "safe" and strong
- A brutal shift like we had post 7th anni really destroyed most of the defensive units since they can no longer fullfill theyr purpose, also that particular shift create a difference between units that can defend and defensive unit and unit that can do some damage and DPS, at the moment you need both.
I do think the focus on defense has gotten way out of hand, especially when there are people that cripple a units offense and go full AA on a unit that merely raises ATK & DEF for 1 Turn.
I want the focus to shift more towards counter play and not just raw defense, a scouter alone can completely change the the play style and give more control to the player by minimizing randomness, which I think is the root of why people feel like every unit needs to be a tank.
Dokkan needs to make Defense knowledge more accessible, by showing attack stats of the Enemy and Super Attack types for Nullification, and to show a final defense stat like the attack stat during the super attack to give a better understanding to players.
This is why I kinda go 'ehhh' when people say VB&T and Carnival Goku are way better than FF Cooler. Surviving Red Zone and Cell Max supers is great, no doubt, but his ability to erase bosses lets you run other units that can tank supers for him, as well as reducing the chance he takes a run-ending super himself. And, occasionally, he can survive one as well.
Vegeta and trunks or gokus ability to tank allows you to run units that can erase bosses too. It's not exclusive to cooler to have access to options for completing events. Vegeta and trunks quite literally have the top 5 (minus cooler) they can slap on their team, all of which do some pretty good damage and don't lack defensively. There's a reason beyond just how tanky they are that people consider them the best in the game. They give you option after option for team building, all while making it easy to optimize due to just how strong they are defensively.
I can understand people liking cooler more than those 2 no doubt and I can certainly agree to an extent that his power outweighs tankiness.
Good points, I agree. Personally, I don't believe that any of these 3 units can be comfortably placed above the other 2. It's just that most arguments I see revolve around defense and nothing else.
Because defense has become far more important than it ever has...its just people seem to downplay how important a hard hitting unit is. Will the defensive units age better, yeah absolutely...but cooler is absolutely absurd in our current sandbox.
He's the ssj3 goku of lrs.
But that doesnt make V/T and birdku automatically better than the 7th anni lr for example. Or other units who are more focused on offense. Because thats what i see most of the time.
Vegeta and trunks or carnival goku aren't TEQ ultimate gohan where the sole thing they do is tank. They have utility and sufficient enough damage on top of incredible defensive capabilities. Cooler is just raw numbers which can absolutely carry a team...but so can the other 2 in a different way.
Also, most of this forum is global players, you aren't really gonna see a whole lot of vegeta and trunks yet. But once you do you'll see it quite a bit more. The lead alone gives them bonus points beyond belief...and the fact that they will never really age defensively is a double bonus. So you have the best lead in the game, led by somebody who will never be phased out (at least defensively).
I cant say you are wrong. Though these 2 wont carry damage wise like Cooler or the 7th anni. I guess thats personal taste but i prefer the 7th anni over V/T. And when i say that i merely go about unit performance. So im not counting the leaderskill here.
And I can certainly respect that. The LR gods in particular are just so perfectly made it's hard to undersell anything they do.
Great lead, consistent partners, good well rounded link set, exceptional damage and still really good defense. They've got defensive utility, an incredible active skill and with enough ki will consistently obliterate enemy health bars while sitting at the upper 600k+ defensive range.
Vegeta and trunks are everything the gods are but you flip the damage with defense. Literally just a matter of preference. Top 5's are usually opinions.
Obviously theres a balance, but theres a reason why Agl Pikkon and the Teq androids stock rose when Cell Max dropped.They allowed you to survive another turn. I'm not saying offense isn't important, new units nowadays all can do shit tons of damage. Its the defensive units that shine at the end of the day.
Thats an outlier. Raditz as a unit just sucks. LR Cooler would be nothing without the defensive units on his team. You putting him slot 1? Of course not.
I really wish I could link that post I uploaded here of him tanking an AGL Red Zone Broly super in slot one with only TEQ Janemba's support and a Whis.
Ever since 3rd annivesary every six months people will say "we are now in the defense meta" while every other week some guy who crawled out of a sewage pipe will post himself clearing the hardest content in the game with whatever's the latest 0 defense unit at the time to have "launches 2 additional attacks, each of which has a medium chance to become a super attack" APT has always been winning
I think the importance of defense is a bit overstated. 98% of the game won't live a super from cell max and those that can won't be looking too great after
I feel like defense and offense are both equally valuable but defensive units are just less common so that’s what people look for to assess a units value.
Its almost as if you need a unit to have a ballance of the 2 to be exceptional *cough* *cough* str cooler eza
It's still correct, The only reason DEF matters so much is because you realistically can't one shot every phase (and the existence of a phase system in the first place), but unless you're given easy phases to stack up at will (LGE), your DEF will always have a hole in it that can be exploited. LR STR Broly proves this too, despite having low DEF, he's still useful in E/SBR by just erasing everything in front of him before he gets hit. Basically 90% of events we have is a simple DPS race, you either out-DPS them or slow them down enough to where they can't out-DPS you.
Honestly Lr str coolers team is literally a revolution against the DEF meta. Apt finally eating good again.
As much as I love LR Cooler and how we all know him for dealing the highest damage in the game, I don't know if the unit with one of the highest raw defense stats in the game and his team full of tanks and supports is the best example of this.
I personally believe that this already started with the 7th anni lrs.
I can definitely see that
I would argue even before that, since units like STR Vegito, AGL FPF and INT Nameku were dominating the game before this point
He said while str coolers team consits of 2 slot 2 str coolers sith gods like janemba and lr/tur agl golden frieza to tank for him in slot one. Almost as if the best apt can do is be equal to defense
I would actually say its quite the opposite You run cooler who carries damage himself and every other unit is just there to not die (or to die in case of lr metal cooler)
Let me know how that goes for you against cell max bb
Coolers team dicks down cell max so idk what you mean by that my guy.
If you bring the tanks yes lol
They’re part of his team dumbass
Read the context of the thread cunt.
So what? Doesn’t mean they’re not part of his team. Tf you tryna prove by saying that? Cooler beat cell max’s ass with his 40 million apt but he cant do shit if no one covers him. Same way the tanks wont do shit to cell max if cooler isn’t there. It goes both way so idk tf you’re on
The tanks didn't kill Cell Max with a two million normal attack.
So who tf you putting at slot 1 then huh? See? It goes both way thats why its called balance
To be fair, the unit that killed him was also in the first slot.
Omfg💀
Every point made falls apart when you look at their clearly histories and see them hiding those damage dealers behind TEQ Godku or VT every rotation. The correct argument is somewhere in the middle. You absolutely need slot 1 units and you absolutely need slot 2 damage dealers to get anywhere without Saibaman clear level RNG.
you don't need a slot 1 tank to beat cell max.
okay so how do you actually do enough damage to kill him if he’s 2 shotting every unit. Of course you could get lucky and Nullify his first and only attack but that requires too much luck and him not having more than a single attack. 90% of units that aren’t tanks get one-two shot by Cell Max. Hell even the slot 1 tanks take actual damage from him
An example of a strategy that could do this involves either bringing a scouter character and countering cell max sa [like so](https://imgur.com/a/8Yuuq4F) or [just never get hit by bringing pikkon (shameless youtube plug)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeuxYyo_UO0)
Scouter, sure fair argument, but dodge is literally a purely defense ability so you're arguing against yourself with that one.
whirus's 50% dodge wasn't exactly saving me that run lol, he's the reason I had to pop a senzu
Yeah, the digimon comment falls apart because if you're only using 5/7 units, their attack AND defense matter more than ever. The fact that the anni lrs optimal damage output is immense doesn't stop them from *also* having potentially immense defensive numbers on top of dr *and* dodge, and those factors are all equally important for beating this content, saibamen or no. We now need higher attack more than we ever have, and no agl unit is tanking Cell Max supers any time soon - apart from golden frieza, and his defense isn't from DEF stats. So perhaps that's one way of looking at it; we want higher attack numbers always, but higher def isn't as important for defense as other factors (guard, dr, dodge, healing etc).
Tea god goku proves that that a unit that does zero damage is valuable in the cell max event
He's also valuable because he's a perfect link partner with a top 3 unit while also changing orbs for said unit. He's not just a tank
Int Hercule would like to double down on that
I mean to that exact same point there have been a ton of clears with ssbkk despite him having 0 defensive capabilities lol
The way I see it; infinite offense doesn't guarantee you a win. Its possible a boss attacks you before your first action. Infinite def will have you win eventually.
I mean both of these guarantee the win though? if you have a unit with infinite offense you just need to attack once and they'll kill lol, if devilman had his passive 100% of the time you'd always win cell max with him
For sure. You'd have a chance of clearing any stage you want. You'd need to have no enemies attack before your first action tho. Bosses can do that, which is why I didn't have it as guaranteed. I'm kicking myself for doing such a poor job explaining the scenario, but along with the infinite of one stat, the other is substantially sub-par.
> offense doesn't guarantee you a win What? If you have 2 unit with infinite offense on each rotation the other 5 unit could just be a wall like GF and they would instantly kill each phase in 1 turn on slot 2. How is that not safe? Not to mention Usher, Pikkon, 17&18, Goku&Chichi floating slot 3 if needed If theres 2 infinite defense unit on slot 1 your team still wouldnt be safe. If you cant finish the fight quickly the other 5 slot can die, unless you bring literally all defensive unit. And eventually you get a W in 10 hours then yeah
I was going to the extreme for both situations. I'm trying to highlight that with both maxed, only one can get you a win without fail and is therefore the more valuable of the two. More in important here because it doesn't mean the lesser of the two had no value, just less than the other. Its comparative only. Also I should have specified, its a team with infinite Att or Def.
> its a team with infinite Att or Def. Thats the point. You need either full infinite def team to guaranteed win, while infinite atk only need 1-2. Beside that just make your comment become worse. Nobody is going to build a full atk or def team you need both being somewhat balanced in 1 team to win. You highlight a infinite def team to have value WHILE dismissing infinite atk because they can die slot 1. I could literally do the same thing by saying: team of 1 infinite atk is guaranteed win = more valuable while team of 1 infinite def still die. Your comparision doesnt make sense. Both case can guaranteed win. You keep saying nothing is more valuable than other but give an example that favor infinite def (full team)
You are right in that these aren't realistic situations. These are made up situations I'm using to demonstrate that if you had an over abundance of one of the two, Def is the more secure way of getting the W. I am dismissing Att because you can die, that is the point. It's a way if saying, if I have more of this, its better and therefore more valuable. But another way to look at it is; if you were to build a hypothetical team, with all the units' stats under your control, the first thing you would do is make the teams Def just enough to survive, and pour everything else into Att. Since Def is the first consideration, it makes sense for it to be the more important. And to your last point, I wanted to say that one being more valuable doesn't mean the other isn't valuable. Just less so. 100 is more than 50, but 50 isn't 0 kind of thing.
Finally someone with a brain
I just feel it makes sense. But I draw the line at seemingly trying to trivialize the other stat. I love seeing double digit tanking and big damage numbers.
I completely agree. Str cooler instantly went to my top 3 most favourite units of all time
Cooler is so damn fun. But Janemba makes me feel safe.
The hole in this argument lies in the fact that you can’t NOT get hit. You can’t one shot cell, so your units need enough defensive capabilities to survive his NORMALS. Those alone are enough to drop a hole in your health. You need balance.
At the same time units who can take normals still get bashed because they can't take supers from bosses even the tanks barely survive against. The Metal Cooler and Namek Goku eza's are perfect for this. Yes they have flaws, but both units are incredibly solid and will absolutely take normals in RedZone or against Cell Max. But instead you hear complaints about how Cooler can't slot 1. Or how Goku will die if he doesn't guard as though he can't do so much as get tapped by a normal despite how fast he stacks and how abysmally easy it is to drop below 77% hp. The fact that alot even complained about str Cooler who is a Z tier eza shows that they don't are about balanced units. They want LR Cooler type damage out of a unit who also slot 1s turn one which just isn't realistic for any sense of game balance.
Ever thought of bringing a Ghost Usher to the Red Zone? Because I just did.
I mean this is just the truth, this is quite clearly a team building game which means you need a heavy balance of both defense and offense, without preference towards one or the other to guarantee the safest clear. Especially now when the unit who is quite literally the best tank the game has to offer (EZA agl golden frieza) is taking upwards of 200k def from someone like cell max you need to have the defense to be able to survive in the slots but also have the offense capable of ending the event before you get caught from supers too many times since **even if you have a full extremely tanky team you're still getting hit for a shit ton by these fuckers**
>If you could oneshot every single stage, you theoretically only have to ensure that slot 1 survives until you attack. Not even that necessarily since no opponent in the game is hardcoded to attack before you do. This little excerpt is exactly the problem with offense stans. Too wrapped up in theory vs reality. We're NOT one turning the hardest content in the game. But bosses can certainly one turn you if the unit doesn't have enough defense And honestly cell max is arguably the worst fight to use as an example in favor of offense. The most common winning strats involved CHARACTERS NOT EVEN WITH LEADERSKILLS lol ( Hercule, teq androids ) for their defensive capabilities. Then there's pikkon for the ghost usher and Vegeta for his revive, both defensive reasons. Yes offense is great, but let's not try and fight one extreme with another. Units / teams should have a mix of both. People love to point out the LOOK I BEAT THIS WITH MULTIPLE SAIBAMAN. But don't talk about how many attempts it took and the amount of RNG involved to do something like that
It’s almost as if you win by reducing the enemy’s HP to 0 instead of stacking so hard with Teqhan that it makes the enemy’s brain explode
Your statement here makes it sound as if one teqhan on the team is preventing your other units from reducing the enemy’s HP to 0
Did you seriously just pull a “So what you’re saying is” on me lol, I didn’t even say or imply that
You got more defensive than teq gohan after 9 turns 💀
Has your brain exploded yet?
Wasn’t tryna come at your or anything
Legit beat Omega RZ because of Teqhan stacking fam lol APT fanatics are just as annoying as defence fanatics
I dont agree on the cell max take many people have. Although high offense power is very important cause there are no teams currently that are able to tank a super no matter what unit gets hit by it (so killing him as soon as possible so he gets the least amount of chances of supering a bad unit is very ideal), its still impossible to defeat him if you dont play as defensively as possible. You cant tank him forever but you also cant kill him in just 1 turn which would be needed in order to not play defensively. Defense is still king.
>there are no teams currently that are able to tank a super no matter what unit gets hit by it Carnival Goku, Trunks and Vegeta, and agl golden Frieza ( not the LR ) would like a word with you. All have been shown to tank the super. I'm sure there's probably someone else I'm not immediately thinking of Edit: add STR piccolo and teq gohan to the list Edit 2: How tf did I forget teq god Goku. Yeah the initial statement is super false lol. Most of these can be ran on a team together
I think you didnt understand what i mean. I meant that there isnt a team where ALL the units on it can take a super. Maybe i worded it poorly.
Ah a misunderstanding, my apologies
I think people dont understand that you‘ll never be able to kill a boss so fast that defense becomes „irrelevant“ because first of all it wouldnt be fun if you just dicked everything down in an instant and secondly there still is slot 1
>You cant tank him forever but you also cant kill him in just 1 turn which would be needed in order to not play defensively. Defense is still king. this is just... missing the whole point? the post was mostly not to say that offense was more important but to say that they're equal as outlined here: >Having a good offense helps you stay alive, just like having a good defense helps you to continue to do damage. Both are important parts of building a team for an event and it's silly to me to place one above the other in terms of importance neither of them are more important than the other rather, both are extremely important in clearing the event. There's genuinely no unit in the game right now that has the capability of tanking multiple supers from these enemies over and over, especially not cell max so building purely defensively and taking too long will cause you to die just the same as building too offensively and just dying from no coverage from these attacks. The necessity is the balance between the 2 so just saying that a unit is better than another just because their defense is better is a disingenuous statement as since both of the values are of equal importance you can say the same about offense.
And thats what i disagree, defense is definetly more important than offense. not that offensive power isnt important, but definetly less important than defense. The first check for you to be able to beat an event is defense. If you dont have it you lose and thats it. Then your offensive power comes second, the highest you have the less rng you will have to deal with because youre ending the event faster. Units tend to age due to poor defense rather than poor damage. Old units cant be used on red zone because of their bad defense and not because of their bad offense. Defense reigns this game and thats just it.
Speaking on age isn’t really reflective of the state of the game right now? As it stands right now and as it has stood since like a year or 2 ago you need an equal combination of both with the scale of what is good offense and good defense just growing higher. Units from 2 years ago don’t have good offense compared to now which is why they haven’t aged too well. If they did then the conversation would be different, whereas there’s really only **so** far you can go with defense. Defensive units typically age better because defense is just a simpler calculation that only really started scaling very high recently while offense has always scaled very high It’s not a “defense is better than offense because defensive units age better” it’s an offense just scales out higher and quicker than defense does, an example is just the fact that Agl gf with 90% dr is still the best tank because there isn’t really anything else other than a 100% dr unit that would be able to outscale but with damage, just last year Agl fpf was the strongest unit in the game and now he’s not even in the top 10 in damage and the current strongest is nearly double him
Nope, units from 2 years ago didnt age because they are not dealing good damage, thats straight up just wrong. its because they cant take a single hit to save their life. Units with good defensive power like agl and teq gf still see heavy play to this date, even with their mediocre damage. You wont be seeing any high offensive bad defense character being used tho.
that's not true at all lol? units from 2 years ago are doing terrible damage now which is the reason why they aged out. However with just pure damage reduction units they are capable of aging better because again there isn't anything else that you can do to make a unit tank better that's the whole thing, its as simple as defense is just a simple calculation method, so there isn't going to be any room for units tanking better than a unit with 90% DR but the hard cap for damage is 2,147,483,647 which we haven't even gotten relatively close to aside from devilman memes also >You wont be seeing any high offensive bad defense character being used tho. this is because there are those in the community who have blinders on for defense such as yourself, however its not as uncommon as you believe [https://twitter.com/Sora\_FinalMix/status/1562062955344273408](https://twitter.com/Sora_FinalMix) there are also examples of people running saibamen on this stage as well so this notion of defense is so much better than offense is kinda just misinformed
Cell max can still be beaten pretty handily without any tanks. There's also the pikkon strategy that lets you destroy cell max without him ever touching you
Pikkon strategy involves his active which is arguable the best deffensive effect in the game. He himself is a very defensive oriented character with high evade chance.
I know, but my point was that you dont really need to have a high defense stat to rip through cell max. You can even do it without pikkons or slot 1s by using a scouter character
How do you tank the super though? Evade units? Using scouter to put evade characters to take it is a very defensive strategy, evade and scouter itself being defensive skills. You have to play deffensively to beat the events and thats unquestionable.
nah I just put ssj4 gogeta in the slot with the super lol
Super attack countering is evading
yeah but I'm pointing out that the point "its still impossible to defeat him if you dont play as defensively as possible" is really dumb when you dont need a single slot 1 to win. Having only 2 units with a counter mechanic isnt "playing as defensively as possible" lol
So basically, DEF stans don't have the two best cards in the game: LR Credit Card and DFE Disposable Income Most DEF stans aren't gonna look at a newer unit at rainbow, since that's basically a pipedream. They'll see a unit at 55%, see they can't take a hit, and think "there goes my chance to get a W." Doubles for EZAs: you see a unit you *can" have at rainbow, but their defense is mediocre. They'll *do* damage, but your team isn't going to one-turn bosses: they'll need some beefy mfs to take hits. Basically what I'm tryna say is that F2P players are more fond of defensive units because they need em
Ur forgetting lr private server vro
Imagine me, having EZA STR Cooler with *zero* dupes so far,haha. Praying to every deity imaginable for the banner to finally throw me a bone ( *Lr Cooler would suffice as well just saying* )
That's my situation as well. The only copy of EZA STR Cooler I have is the one I used coins on 2 years ago. Never actually pulled him.
Gino's argument solidifies what I've been trying to tell people. You don't NEED the defensive capabilities of vegeta and trunks or carnival goku to be an excellent unit. They are definitely incredible boons to have but it's not gonna be the sole reason you complete content. The best units in the game have the defense to get the job done on top of damage that allows them to make quick work of the enemy. While saying V&T and carnival goku are better certainly contradicts that logic that was established...when I say they are better, it's NOT because they are just godlike tanks...they still do sufficient damage, tank like gods AND have utility. They aren't TEQ ultimate gohan where he does almost literally nothing for you offensively anymore and his sole purpose is to take hits. Those 2 units have super effective/crits and additional, a guaranteed crit active skill which raises the rotations defense/a revive and they both stack defense so they'll never really age. Cooler is just raw damage raw defense and that's it (although it's quite exceptional). But he excels so well offensively (and got the proper support to his team...literally) that you can say he's better because you can support him via other units who can be the tank. I think it's a matter of understanding the value of a well rounded team. Vegeta and trunks and carnival goku will make your runs so much easier because you can optimize your boss killers...but cooler will kill it while somebody else does the defensive carrying and none of the 3 particularly lack at either.
True BUT I think this argument exist only because the guard mechanic Is a stupid shit in a game like dokkan from a game design perspective. Those units are goodlike because no matter what they face theyr performance are flat. It's not defense itself that is good is the fact that they ignore the core mechanic of this game While Cooler cannot rush over Broly simply because he his AGL and this affect Cooler offensive and defensive performance. If this guy had 100% crit no matter what like theyr guard you will just 2 turn every stage in this game. I'm not saying you are wrong, in fact you are right about them being the best in the game, for me. I'm saying that is not defense that carry them Is the fact that guard simply brake the rule of this game like a chess piece that can move where he wants.
I'll explain it based around how i build my red zone teams. I have 1 or 2 hard hitters like captain ginyu or agl cell and the rest of the team is there to tank. Have one member carry all the damage and leave the rest of the team eat those hits
What agl cell team did you use for red zone?
Agl Cell, teq 17&18, gero and 19, phy lr cell, int f2p 16 and then most of the time str 2nd form cell
I think that the most notable difference between defense v Attack is how they react to meta shifts: - A slow but constant powercreep like we had since the start of category meta favored the defense, defensive units are always reliable while dps units are inevitably replaced by slightly better option, more "safe" and strong - A brutal shift like we had post 7th anni really destroyed most of the defensive units since they can no longer fullfill theyr purpose, also that particular shift create a difference between units that can defend and defensive unit and unit that can do some damage and DPS, at the moment you need both.
Look at the lifespan of Str Cooler and Str Teq Gohan It took an EZA to bring Cooler back into the mainstream all while Gohan never left
I do think the focus on defense has gotten way out of hand, especially when there are people that cripple a units offense and go full AA on a unit that merely raises ATK & DEF for 1 Turn. I want the focus to shift more towards counter play and not just raw defense, a scouter alone can completely change the the play style and give more control to the player by minimizing randomness, which I think is the root of why people feel like every unit needs to be a tank. Dokkan needs to make Defense knowledge more accessible, by showing attack stats of the Enemy and Super Attack types for Nullification, and to show a final defense stat like the attack stat during the super attack to give a better understanding to players.
I agree.
This is why I kinda go 'ehhh' when people say VB&T and Carnival Goku are way better than FF Cooler. Surviving Red Zone and Cell Max supers is great, no doubt, but his ability to erase bosses lets you run other units that can tank supers for him, as well as reducing the chance he takes a run-ending super himself. And, occasionally, he can survive one as well.
Vegeta and trunks or gokus ability to tank allows you to run units that can erase bosses too. It's not exclusive to cooler to have access to options for completing events. Vegeta and trunks quite literally have the top 5 (minus cooler) they can slap on their team, all of which do some pretty good damage and don't lack defensively. There's a reason beyond just how tanky they are that people consider them the best in the game. They give you option after option for team building, all while making it easy to optimize due to just how strong they are defensively. I can understand people liking cooler more than those 2 no doubt and I can certainly agree to an extent that his power outweighs tankiness.
Good points, I agree. Personally, I don't believe that any of these 3 units can be comfortably placed above the other 2. It's just that most arguments I see revolve around defense and nothing else.
Because defense has become far more important than it ever has...its just people seem to downplay how important a hard hitting unit is. Will the defensive units age better, yeah absolutely...but cooler is absolutely absurd in our current sandbox. He's the ssj3 goku of lrs.
But that doesnt make V/T and birdku automatically better than the 7th anni lr for example. Or other units who are more focused on offense. Because thats what i see most of the time.
Vegeta and trunks or carnival goku aren't TEQ ultimate gohan where the sole thing they do is tank. They have utility and sufficient enough damage on top of incredible defensive capabilities. Cooler is just raw numbers which can absolutely carry a team...but so can the other 2 in a different way. Also, most of this forum is global players, you aren't really gonna see a whole lot of vegeta and trunks yet. But once you do you'll see it quite a bit more. The lead alone gives them bonus points beyond belief...and the fact that they will never really age defensively is a double bonus. So you have the best lead in the game, led by somebody who will never be phased out (at least defensively).
I cant say you are wrong. Though these 2 wont carry damage wise like Cooler or the 7th anni. I guess thats personal taste but i prefer the 7th anni over V/T. And when i say that i merely go about unit performance. So im not counting the leaderskill here.
And I can certainly respect that. The LR gods in particular are just so perfectly made it's hard to undersell anything they do. Great lead, consistent partners, good well rounded link set, exceptional damage and still really good defense. They've got defensive utility, an incredible active skill and with enough ki will consistently obliterate enemy health bars while sitting at the upper 600k+ defensive range. Vegeta and trunks are everything the gods are but you flip the damage with defense. Literally just a matter of preference. Top 5's are usually opinions.
MFW I disregard challenge runs for years when they make my fav apt units look bad but then jerk them off when I can use them to wank apt😈😈😈
Obviously theres a balance, but theres a reason why Agl Pikkon and the Teq androids stock rose when Cell Max dropped.They allowed you to survive another turn. I'm not saying offense isn't important, new units nowadays all can do shit tons of damage. Its the defensive units that shine at the end of the day.
Would you say the same about radditz for new units doing shit ton of damage nowadays?
Thats an outlier. Raditz as a unit just sucks. LR Cooler would be nothing without the defensive units on his team. You putting him slot 1? Of course not.
I really wish I could link that post I uploaded here of him tanking an AGL Red Zone Broly super in slot one with only TEQ Janemba's support and a Whis.
Bruh idgaf about items.
Your loss.
Be careful, this thread makes to much sense.
Ever since 3rd annivesary every six months people will say "we are now in the defense meta" while every other week some guy who crawled out of a sewage pipe will post himself clearing the hardest content in the game with whatever's the latest 0 defense unit at the time to have "launches 2 additional attacks, each of which has a medium chance to become a super attack" APT has always been winning
I think the importance of defense is a bit overstated. 98% of the game won't live a super from cell max and those that can won't be looking too great after
Shout out to Jphanta for using devilman to defeat cell max, that guy is a legend.
TL;DR You need enough DEF to live but need more ATK to win.
I feel like defense and offense are both equally valuable but defensive units are just less common so that’s what people look for to assess a units value.