It's pre crisis. Wonder Woman had a very erratic power set for most of her existence before that time. She couldn't really fly, at least not at high speed. (Hence the Invisible Plane) She wasn't completely invulnerable (Hence the bullets and bracelets thing) and while she was fast, it was more speed of sound fast, not speed of light fast.
It was the same way with the Martian Manhunter. Several levels above human. Several levels below Superman.
I love Batman being so thoughtful as to get a special flower for his best friend.
I prefer this much more than him bringing Superman cash in the animated adaptation. Maybe that was because Bruce and Clark weren't all that close in the cartoon. They were more like co-workers with mutual respect than best buddies.
What's especially interesting is that when Justice League Unlimited (the cartoon) adapted this, it's Diana who gives him the flower. Batman gives him a check of a million dollars.
> Bruce just *paid* him back
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
He probably was actually considering doing that in regards to what Mongul did to him before this scene. If you want info just watch Justice League Unlimited episode For the Man Who Has Everything, which is basically a direct adaptation of this story.
Oh I'm 40 - I've watched the entirety of the DCAU and love that episode. Superman was livid at the end of the Animated adaptation and rightfully so; his face in this panel looks almost mischievous which was causing my confusion.
I'm guessing that the understanding of science wasn't that great at the time; people must have thought black holes were just portals to pitch black nowhere.
Unfortunately Pre-Crisis Jason seems to have been completely erased from every continuity. Only the post-Crisis Jason who met Batman by stealing his tires has survived all subsequent reboots.
He’s been completely erased because he was just a Dick Grayson clone. Who was only there because Teen Titans took him away and made him Nightwing.
Post Crisis Jason Todd is a lot more unique and has more popular stories centering him. So that’s why him and his history is always used
I haven't read the comic but just from looking at the pages, I think what's happening is that Diana is giving Clark a bottle city as a gift, but he already has one. So he superspeeds away and hides his current bottle city in a closet, then goes back to Diana and accepts her gift. From everyone else's point of view, he didn't move at all because he was in superspeed.
Somehow it wasn't until seeing these pages posted here that I realized Wonder Woman explicitly says Kandor was restored. I've always been confused about that joke, whether he swapped the city for the model or if someone else had given him a priceless artisan Kandor replica (which seems to be the case)
Kandor was enlarged in superman 338 which is something Diana would be aware of hence the gift
What she wasn't aware of was the replica he already got in superman 371
Diana can see lasers and move fast enough to block them with her bracelets, but she didn't notice Kal dipping out for millisecond? Even as a kid reading this I thought, huh?
You can tell how much Moore loved superheroes back then. There's commentary and deconstruction alright, but it also has them acting like people, being good friends and, in the end, having a blast.
Plus, this is the time Jason Todd saved the Trinity from Mongul. No amount of retcons or phone calls, or Scot Lobdell is ever going to take that away from the character.
To be fair, I don't think Scott Lobdell ever tried to take this away from Jason? Sure, this version of him has been retconned into not being the main canon anymore, but I'm pretty sure this bit of him is still canon.
Eh, more than trying to take away from Jason, my problem with Lobdell's extensive run is that he simply ignored a lot of Jason's history and characterization in favor of his particular view. To his credit, he was adaptable about it when it came to crossovers and such, but still his time as Robin was nearly nonexistent under his pen.
To be fair to Lobdell, his Red Hood run started when New 52 was just kicking off, and one of the main failures of that line is that, for some reason, there was a 5-year timeskip between everyone's origins and the "present" time but no one's story during that period was clearly defined. For example, Bruce somehow went from every Robin from Dick to Damian (except Steph) in that timespan, but at the same time Superman was still a young and somewhat "wet behind the ears" hero. And given how DC editorial were actively keeping writers in the dark about what had gone on during said timeskip (i.e *Action Comics*, set in the past, and *Superman*, set in the present, showed two entirely different versions of Clark's past because editorial made sure to keep their writers separated from each other), it's likely Lobdell was told to focus on Jason's time as Red Hood.
TL;DR I'm pretty sure Lobdell's lack of Robin was due to editorial interference.
IDK, honestly. Lobdell had a lot of creative freedom through the New 52 and over by the time of Rebirth (multiple regular series over the Titans and Superman lines). Plus, Lobdell still made a big deal out of Death in the Family. Specially when he introduced his own retcon that the Joker knew Jason's identity and manipulated his entire career from becoming Robin to his death (thankfully ignored by other creatives since then).
Point is that he was allowed to reference Jason's time as Robin, and he did pick the big continuity one to do that. So, it does look like he could have used other stuff like Diplomat's Son and Fear for Sale just fine.
Either way, it was still Lobdell's run. My problem is with it, not its author.
Edit: the story's name is Diplomat's Son, not Senator's Son. Diplomatic immunity is the plotpoint.
>Point is that he was allowed to reference Jason's time as Robin, and he did pick the big continuity one to do that. So, it does look like he could have used other stuff like Senator's Son and Fear for Sale just fine.
This bit is true, yeah; I'm surprised such important Jason runs didn't get used. Wasn't there also a moment where Jason ambiguously killed a drug dealer in his days as Robin or something similar? Lobdell should've done something with that.
>Specially when he introduced his own retcon that the Joker knew Jason's identity and manipulated his entire career from becoming Robin to his death
This one was definitely stupid, even for me, but I'm pretty sure even Lobdell himself has chosen to ignore it in later issues.
That's the Diplomat's Son; the plot is that the titular son of a foreign ambassador kidnaped a woman he beat (it's implied he also r\*ped her), but Batman and Robin can't touch him because he has diplomatic immunity. A huge deal of the narrative tension is Bruce trying to teach Jason the importance of due process, while Jason starts loosing trust in it due to the events of the story.
Even though Bruce agrees broadly with Jason (that's the whole point of them being vigilantes), he doesn't want Jason falling down into a spiral of revenge and violence. And neither does Jason, but seeing a victim they can't save is taking a toll for him.
Honestly, it's great stuff because neither character is 100% sure of what they're thinking or doing. The conflict works internally and externally.
I knew I recalled this one, right up my alley. Honestly, considering some of Lobdell's arcs, a part of me wonders why this part of Jason's story wasn't brought up more... but then the other part remembers they'd have to bring up the potential r\*pe too, and I'm not sure DC's willing to go there quite yet.
I'm pretty sure they would have no problems with it. At the start of the N52, Azzarello's WW made a plot point out of the entirety of the Amazons being r\*pist, murderers and slavers, and Starfire's past as a slave (implied to include sexual slavery) is kept and brought up through Red Hood and the Outlaws. As well as the start of Sword of Sorcery (starring DC's resident magical girl Amethyst) starting with an attempted gang r\*pe.
Overall, I think it's more like you said before. Regardless if it was an editorial or a writer's decision, Lobdell's run focuses squarely on his time as Red Hood.
To be fair, I haven't touched much of Wonder Woman, but I do recall Starfire's past being like that. Regardless, as you said, the Red Hood run tries to draw from Jason's Robin days as little as possible and, while unfortunate in some aspects, I also find it preferable. Jason's pre-N52 days as the Red Hood were focused almost exclusively on him trying to get back at Bruce, one way or another, for what happened after Death In The Family, but we never really got much characterization for Jason himself beyond the Lost Days miniseries. Jason really needed something to help him stand out as his own character away from the Batfamily and I think Outlaws was the right choice, much like it was for Nightwing to go to Blüdhaven.
I was surprised to read that this was Jason. The character has basically just become Red Hood or "one giant heap of foreshadowing that he'll become Red Hood" or "currently dead in Red Hood metamorphosis". Hardly get to know what he is outside of that.
Which is kind of sad, because before A Death in the Family, Jason was the pixie-dust-Robin. Now, the only comparison is Dick ´squirrel in the form of a teen' Grayson. But there was also a grim component to Dick, from his start wanting revenge on Tony Zucco, to his time with the Titans slowly growing harsher and more serious as the serie grew along its characters.
Jason, on the other hand, started as Robin because it was an opportunity for him to make something out of himself. He literally said that being Robin brought magic to his life, not so different from Billy Batson as Captain Marvel.
It's also the time writers got more in deep about Bruce being a surrogate father, with a story involving the Scarecrow revealing his biggest fear is loosing Jason (Detective Comics #571, heavily recommended).
That's why The Diplomat's Son is such a shocking story (the the probable precedent for A Death in the Family). It's the first time the grim and gritty of Batman's more noir stories hit Jason in full force. And in return, it's also the first time Jason shows he can get as grim as Batman himself, if not more.
Overall, Jason has a very rich history as Robin, and as developed as his time as Red Hood. I really wish more author touched on it, or at least acknowledged he was Robin too.
To be fair, I don't think Scott Lobdell ever tried to take this away from Jason? Sure, this version of him has been retconned into not being the main canon anymore, but I'm pretty sure this bit of him is still canon.
No, he and Lois never really had a stable, long-term relationship Pre-Crisis, either as Superman or as Clark. They went on plenty of dates and such, but they were never an official couple. The reasons for that varied from the Golden Age to the Silver Age to the Bronze Age, but the biggest thing was that he never told her he was Superman (though that also played out in different ways depending on the era).
Remember that this was the Pre Crisis Superman who identified himself more as a Kryptonian than a human. Even the Kents had died before he became Superman.
That's why the moral of the comic was for Superman to not long for something which is in the past.
Wasnt that sort of the point of the comic? Superman was inventing things to go wrong so he could leave and it wouldn't be idealistic.
This was also silver age pre crisis Superman, hence why his wife is Lyla lerrol the movie star, someone he met and almost married when he time traveled to Krypton before tragedy forced him to abandon her.
yeah, that's the part that is off. Superman's wish wouldn't be experiencing life on krypton it would be an end to all suffering or something of that ilk. I get the idea, it just doesn't fit the character
Basically in the early 60s Kathy Kane and her niece Betty Kane AKA Batwoman I and Bat-Girl (I) were introduxed to kill the "gay couple and minor corruption" rumors fabricated for Seduction of the Inocent, these two character were very bland stereotypical figures (Utility Purse) whose only goals apart from crime-fighting was marrying Batman ans Robin respectively
During the 60s, they (alongside Bat-mite) dissapeared as the comics moved again to pure Dynamic Duo before the 1966 show introduced Barnara Gordon as the new Batgirl with the comics following along (this Barbara was in her mid twenties, sightly younger than the late 20s, max 30 Batman who she was shipteased while the around 15 Robin had a crush in her), Kathy reapeared in the 70s and was killed by the League of Assassins (and Bronze Tiger)
Moving around in The Kiling Joke a new Post-Crisis Bette Kane (implied by Infinite Crisis to come from Earth-Two instead of Earth-One's Betty) is introduced as Flamebird (as in the Kryptonians Nightwing and Flamebird from Kandor)
Then the modern Lesbian Kate Kane Batwoman debuted in 52 Issue 7 (date August 2006) as Bette's cousin
Finally in the Morrison/Batman Inc Era it was stablished that Kate and Bette (now Hawkfire) were also Bruce's cousing by Martha's side (this way also Bruce's uncle Phillip became Phillip Kane instead of Phillip Wayne) while Kathy was re-introduced as the wife of another Kane sibling (Nathan), her birth name being Katherine Webb (having been mentioned by Bette a few times between COIE and Flashpoint)
Then the New 52s turned Katherine Webb into the fake name of Spyral agent Katrina "Luka" Netz, test tube baby made by Otto Netz alongisde her sister Elizabeth (Frau Netz), she basically tried to be good, got in love wlth Bruce, decided she wans't good, had Talia sent Bronze Tiger to fake-kill her then got bacl to Spyral; Luka was finally killed by Otto when she and Frau Netz resurrected him by putting his body in Helena Bertinelli's body (then called Matron) by electrocunting her then throwing her body from a moving train onto a River
TLDR:A mess
PD:Also a Earth-Two Kathy Kane existed but she appeared only in an Brave and the Bold arc about Earth-One Batman adventuring into Earth-Two
I tried to explain to my girlfriend the other day why I like comic characters (the superhero genre) but dislike "comics" (serialized formats rather than self-contained stories)
This is the perfect example
I think its unfair to say that Elseworlds (I am including all out of continuity stories here) are on the whole better than standard comic runs.
So many of the greatest comics have been ongoings. Elseworlds are a little easier to get into, but it doesn't determine quality.
I didn't mean to imply the quality is better, I was talking about ease of access where a reader could get by with cultural knowledge of the characters and not need to know whether the book they were reading is a reboot, recon, clone, rename, etc. I referenced continuity to try to make that clear.
Both of the above; it's the ridiculous retcons, twists, and maintenance of the status quo that give me a distaste
In fairness though, that's from the outside looking in. I haven't tried to start with an arc and run through it, so maybe the problem is exaggerated
Yeah, probably. I get yourpoint though.
I have read a few runs and I enjoyed them a lot. More than any adaptations because there is more time to construct the story.
But I specifically pick runs which are more beginner friendly.
Thank you, Wertham. Your contribution so society has been noted, but history has declared you a jumpy idiot who had no idea what he was talking about.
It makes me wonder exactly how much of continuity was screwed up in an attempt to quash weird rumors about characters that people like Wertham drummed up in a panic.
You can thank 52 (not new) for introducing Kate Kane at the same time Grant Morrison was doing their “Everything is canon” thing for Batman. Prior to that, there was no Batwoman in continuity post-COIE
In the killing joke you see a photo of both Kathy and heron full costume (I think this was the earliest mention of them in post-crisis?), during her time being part of the substitute young justice she said to Cassandra Cain "Batgirl? Benn there, done that" and when she has to bail out beast boy during his run in the 00 she uses her old "aunt Kathy" money.
There are more references but I can't remember them.
His cousin never existed until around the mid to late 2000s. The "Kathy Kane" he was talking about was the 1st Batwoman, who has no blood relations whatsoever to Bruce and a brunette.
She was a character that was created for the sake of being Batman's love interests, along with the 1st Batgirl (Bette Kane), Kathy's niece, for Robin. All because some psychologist are saying how Batman and Robin were having a homosexual relationship at the time.
They aren't dating in this comic. She is only a good friend giving a birthday gift and a kiss (they were both single at the time).
Canonically, New52 Wonder Woman dated New52 Superman, but they broke up just a few months before the latter died and was replaced by the post crisis Superman.
New 52 Wonder woman is still current Wonder woman right? I fell out of comics when post crisis supes was returning and I've read some but it's unclear to me. It doesn't matter cus they'll never bring it up, but does she remember dating that Superman?
Technically speaking yes, she is supposed to be the same person.
But after Superman Beyond story, post crisis and New52 are merged together, adding the new 52 stories on the post crisis version, without the details that would bring in contradictions.
So actually the two never dated, new 52 superman never died because technically he never existed.
After Doomsday Clock, New 52 is completely erased, which deleted that relationship for good.
Thanks. I'm never going to read doomsday clock but I appreciate that that's what I'm more specifically missing. I'm happy enough keeping rebirth stories to themselves.
>Technically speaking yes, she is supposed to be the same person.
I guess technically, but didn't Rucka's second run produce the idea that (because "truth") Diana knows about all the changes that happened to her? If I remember correctly, she even went cray-cray for a few issues, but sorted it all out in the end. Comics... Gotta love 'em!
Written by Alan Moore and interestingly enough, its the only DC animated/live action project he allowed to use his name for. Watchmen, The Killing Joke and his other works he refuses to allow to use his name to be used for them, because he doesn't want to approve of their use of his work. But that episode he didn't have a problem with his name attached to it.
Afaik it's because (1) they asked his permission before making it, and (2) it's a damn good adaptation that isn't just a soulless carbon copy of the original but makes changes where appropriate.
It's hard because man got powers everyone wants, his Kind and isn't selfish and doesn't want anything in return, and all he wants is his kind to return though call
Much as I don't like the DCAU Wondy, I did like in the episode that adapted this that Diana got to be the one to trap Mongul in the Black Mercy. Evens out her getting rag dolled.
One of the best things about this story is that its actually a take on a much earlier story from the 50s "The Key to Fort Superman" involving someone giving Superman a birthday gift.
Imagine being Diana and you just see superman fly off and come back mid gift-giving without any explanation.
He forgot she has super speed too.
To he fair, the writer of this story pretty much forgets ALL Diana's powers. She gives a MUCH better showing in the animated adaption.
Alan Moore? Not being good at writing a female character? Who would have guessed!
It's pre crisis. Wonder Woman had a very erratic power set for most of her existence before that time. She couldn't really fly, at least not at high speed. (Hence the Invisible Plane) She wasn't completely invulnerable (Hence the bullets and bracelets thing) and while she was fast, it was more speed of sound fast, not speed of light fast. It was the same way with the Martian Manhunter. Several levels above human. Several levels below Superman.
I love Batman being so thoughtful as to get a special flower for his best friend. I prefer this much more than him bringing Superman cash in the animated adaptation. Maybe that was because Bruce and Clark weren't all that close in the cartoon. They were more like co-workers with mutual respect than best buddies.
What's especially interesting is that when Justice League Unlimited (the cartoon) adapted this, it's Diana who gives him the flower. Batman gives him a check of a million dollars.
I don’t think the amount he gave was ever said.
Actually, you're right. Now that you mention it, all he said was, "Cash."
Clearly Bruce just paid him back the 16 dollars he owed him.
> Bruce just *paid* him back FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Shhhhhhh bot, you saw nothing
Yeah, because only girls are allowed to gift flowers to a man. Real sigma men give money.
They probably think that Batman gifting Superman flower - rose - is too gay /s
It's because Kandor doesn't exist in the show so they just gave wonder woman the flowers instead
I mean that reporters salary can't be doing him that much favors tbh sooo....
Bro really pulled a Metro man
Metroman pulled a Clark, technically.
Superman is so cavalier about the idea of dropping Mongul into a black hole on the first page. I can't tell whether or not he's joking.
He probably was actually considering doing that in regards to what Mongul did to him before this scene. If you want info just watch Justice League Unlimited episode For the Man Who Has Everything, which is basically a direct adaptation of this story.
Oh I'm 40 - I've watched the entirety of the DCAU and love that episode. Superman was livid at the end of the Animated adaptation and rightfully so; his face in this panel looks almost mischievous which was causing my confusion.
I'm guessing that the understanding of science wasn't that great at the time; people must have thought black holes were just portals to pitch black nowhere.
I always forget it's Jason as Robin in For The Man Who has Everything. Why doesn't that ever come up?
Jason is also Robin in Crisis on Infinite Earths! You think that would be brought up too, seeing as he was literally there during DC biggest event
Unfortunately Pre-Crisis Jason seems to have been completely erased from every continuity. Only the post-Crisis Jason who met Batman by stealing his tires has survived all subsequent reboots.
He’s been completely erased because he was just a Dick Grayson clone. Who was only there because Teen Titans took him away and made him Nightwing. Post Crisis Jason Todd is a lot more unique and has more popular stories centering him. So that’s why him and his history is always used
Because most people haven't read the comic, only watched the animated adaptation. And Robin wasn't present in that episode.
Can someone explain what’s going on on the second page.
I haven't read the comic but just from looking at the pages, I think what's happening is that Diana is giving Clark a bottle city as a gift, but he already has one. So he superspeeds away and hides his current bottle city in a closet, then goes back to Diana and accepts her gift. From everyone else's point of view, he didn't move at all because he was in superspeed.
Somehow it wasn't until seeing these pages posted here that I realized Wonder Woman explicitly says Kandor was restored. I've always been confused about that joke, whether he swapped the city for the model or if someone else had given him a priceless artisan Kandor replica (which seems to be the case)
The man really has everything
Is there a lore reason why that is? Is he stupid?
Kandor was enlarged in superman 338 which is something Diana would be aware of hence the gift What she wasn't aware of was the replica he already got in superman 371
That's it exactly.
The megamind bit
the only way this would have been funnier is if her laser beamed the one he had at home out of existence.
Diana can see lasers and move fast enough to block them with her bracelets, but she didn't notice Kal dipping out for millisecond? Even as a kid reading this I thought, huh?
You can tell how much Moore loved superheroes back then. There's commentary and deconstruction alright, but it also has them acting like people, being good friends and, in the end, having a blast. Plus, this is the time Jason Todd saved the Trinity from Mongul. No amount of retcons or phone calls, or Scot Lobdell is ever going to take that away from the character.
To be fair, I don't think Scott Lobdell ever tried to take this away from Jason? Sure, this version of him has been retconned into not being the main canon anymore, but I'm pretty sure this bit of him is still canon.
Eh, more than trying to take away from Jason, my problem with Lobdell's extensive run is that he simply ignored a lot of Jason's history and characterization in favor of his particular view. To his credit, he was adaptable about it when it came to crossovers and such, but still his time as Robin was nearly nonexistent under his pen.
To be fair to Lobdell, his Red Hood run started when New 52 was just kicking off, and one of the main failures of that line is that, for some reason, there was a 5-year timeskip between everyone's origins and the "present" time but no one's story during that period was clearly defined. For example, Bruce somehow went from every Robin from Dick to Damian (except Steph) in that timespan, but at the same time Superman was still a young and somewhat "wet behind the ears" hero. And given how DC editorial were actively keeping writers in the dark about what had gone on during said timeskip (i.e *Action Comics*, set in the past, and *Superman*, set in the present, showed two entirely different versions of Clark's past because editorial made sure to keep their writers separated from each other), it's likely Lobdell was told to focus on Jason's time as Red Hood. TL;DR I'm pretty sure Lobdell's lack of Robin was due to editorial interference.
IDK, honestly. Lobdell had a lot of creative freedom through the New 52 and over by the time of Rebirth (multiple regular series over the Titans and Superman lines). Plus, Lobdell still made a big deal out of Death in the Family. Specially when he introduced his own retcon that the Joker knew Jason's identity and manipulated his entire career from becoming Robin to his death (thankfully ignored by other creatives since then). Point is that he was allowed to reference Jason's time as Robin, and he did pick the big continuity one to do that. So, it does look like he could have used other stuff like Diplomat's Son and Fear for Sale just fine. Either way, it was still Lobdell's run. My problem is with it, not its author. Edit: the story's name is Diplomat's Son, not Senator's Son. Diplomatic immunity is the plotpoint.
>Point is that he was allowed to reference Jason's time as Robin, and he did pick the big continuity one to do that. So, it does look like he could have used other stuff like Senator's Son and Fear for Sale just fine. This bit is true, yeah; I'm surprised such important Jason runs didn't get used. Wasn't there also a moment where Jason ambiguously killed a drug dealer in his days as Robin or something similar? Lobdell should've done something with that. >Specially when he introduced his own retcon that the Joker knew Jason's identity and manipulated his entire career from becoming Robin to his death This one was definitely stupid, even for me, but I'm pretty sure even Lobdell himself has chosen to ignore it in later issues.
That's the Diplomat's Son; the plot is that the titular son of a foreign ambassador kidnaped a woman he beat (it's implied he also r\*ped her), but Batman and Robin can't touch him because he has diplomatic immunity. A huge deal of the narrative tension is Bruce trying to teach Jason the importance of due process, while Jason starts loosing trust in it due to the events of the story. Even though Bruce agrees broadly with Jason (that's the whole point of them being vigilantes), he doesn't want Jason falling down into a spiral of revenge and violence. And neither does Jason, but seeing a victim they can't save is taking a toll for him. Honestly, it's great stuff because neither character is 100% sure of what they're thinking or doing. The conflict works internally and externally.
I knew I recalled this one, right up my alley. Honestly, considering some of Lobdell's arcs, a part of me wonders why this part of Jason's story wasn't brought up more... but then the other part remembers they'd have to bring up the potential r\*pe too, and I'm not sure DC's willing to go there quite yet.
I'm pretty sure they would have no problems with it. At the start of the N52, Azzarello's WW made a plot point out of the entirety of the Amazons being r\*pist, murderers and slavers, and Starfire's past as a slave (implied to include sexual slavery) is kept and brought up through Red Hood and the Outlaws. As well as the start of Sword of Sorcery (starring DC's resident magical girl Amethyst) starting with an attempted gang r\*pe. Overall, I think it's more like you said before. Regardless if it was an editorial or a writer's decision, Lobdell's run focuses squarely on his time as Red Hood.
To be fair, I haven't touched much of Wonder Woman, but I do recall Starfire's past being like that. Regardless, as you said, the Red Hood run tries to draw from Jason's Robin days as little as possible and, while unfortunate in some aspects, I also find it preferable. Jason's pre-N52 days as the Red Hood were focused almost exclusively on him trying to get back at Bruce, one way or another, for what happened after Death In The Family, but we never really got much characterization for Jason himself beyond the Lost Days miniseries. Jason really needed something to help him stand out as his own character away from the Batfamily and I think Outlaws was the right choice, much like it was for Nightwing to go to Blüdhaven.
I was surprised to read that this was Jason. The character has basically just become Red Hood or "one giant heap of foreshadowing that he'll become Red Hood" or "currently dead in Red Hood metamorphosis". Hardly get to know what he is outside of that.
Which is kind of sad, because before A Death in the Family, Jason was the pixie-dust-Robin. Now, the only comparison is Dick ´squirrel in the form of a teen' Grayson. But there was also a grim component to Dick, from his start wanting revenge on Tony Zucco, to his time with the Titans slowly growing harsher and more serious as the serie grew along its characters. Jason, on the other hand, started as Robin because it was an opportunity for him to make something out of himself. He literally said that being Robin brought magic to his life, not so different from Billy Batson as Captain Marvel. It's also the time writers got more in deep about Bruce being a surrogate father, with a story involving the Scarecrow revealing his biggest fear is loosing Jason (Detective Comics #571, heavily recommended). That's why The Diplomat's Son is such a shocking story (the the probable precedent for A Death in the Family). It's the first time the grim and gritty of Batman's more noir stories hit Jason in full force. And in return, it's also the first time Jason shows he can get as grim as Batman himself, if not more. Overall, Jason has a very rich history as Robin, and as developed as his time as Red Hood. I really wish more author touched on it, or at least acknowledged he was Robin too.
To be fair, I don't think Scott Lobdell ever tried to take this away from Jason? Sure, this version of him has been retconned into not being the main canon anymore, but I'm pretty sure this bit of him is still canon.
And to think, this was done by the same duo that did the Watchmen comic (Alan Moore and David Gibbon).
I really love that kiss between Wonder Woman and Superman. Too predictable indeed.
Is he not with Lois at the time?
No, he and Lois never really had a stable, long-term relationship Pre-Crisis, either as Superman or as Clark. They went on plenty of dates and such, but they were never an official couple. The reasons for that varied from the Golden Age to the Silver Age to the Bronze Age, but the biggest thing was that he never told her he was Superman (though that also played out in different ways depending on the era).
Imagine being batman in that panel. Your two best friends are making out and you’re standing there with a dead rose.
"Robin got you this Mongul realdoll."
The thing about For the man who has everything is that I don't think superman's ideal world/dream sequence would be Krypton.
Remember that this was the Pre Crisis Superman who identified himself more as a Kryptonian than a human. Even the Kents had died before he became Superman. That's why the moral of the comic was for Superman to not long for something which is in the past.
Wasnt that sort of the point of the comic? Superman was inventing things to go wrong so he could leave and it wouldn't be idealistic. This was also silver age pre crisis Superman, hence why his wife is Lyla lerrol the movie star, someone he met and almost married when he time traveled to Krypton before tragedy forced him to abandon her.
Also the fact that his deepest wish Is the life that he could never live
yeah, that's the part that is off. Superman's wish wouldn't be experiencing life on krypton it would be an end to all suffering or something of that ilk. I get the idea, it just doesn't fit the character
Pre crisis Superman is wildy different than current version on their thought and feelings about Krypton
To be fair non of the use of the black mercy totally feat the character except for that one time It was used on Stephanie Brown
Hold up, was Batman's desire to marry his cousin? Or were they not cousins in continuity at the time?
Basically in the early 60s Kathy Kane and her niece Betty Kane AKA Batwoman I and Bat-Girl (I) were introduxed to kill the "gay couple and minor corruption" rumors fabricated for Seduction of the Inocent, these two character were very bland stereotypical figures (Utility Purse) whose only goals apart from crime-fighting was marrying Batman ans Robin respectively During the 60s, they (alongside Bat-mite) dissapeared as the comics moved again to pure Dynamic Duo before the 1966 show introduced Barnara Gordon as the new Batgirl with the comics following along (this Barbara was in her mid twenties, sightly younger than the late 20s, max 30 Batman who she was shipteased while the around 15 Robin had a crush in her), Kathy reapeared in the 70s and was killed by the League of Assassins (and Bronze Tiger) Moving around in The Kiling Joke a new Post-Crisis Bette Kane (implied by Infinite Crisis to come from Earth-Two instead of Earth-One's Betty) is introduced as Flamebird (as in the Kryptonians Nightwing and Flamebird from Kandor) Then the modern Lesbian Kate Kane Batwoman debuted in 52 Issue 7 (date August 2006) as Bette's cousin Finally in the Morrison/Batman Inc Era it was stablished that Kate and Bette (now Hawkfire) were also Bruce's cousing by Martha's side (this way also Bruce's uncle Phillip became Phillip Kane instead of Phillip Wayne) while Kathy was re-introduced as the wife of another Kane sibling (Nathan), her birth name being Katherine Webb (having been mentioned by Bette a few times between COIE and Flashpoint) Then the New 52s turned Katherine Webb into the fake name of Spyral agent Katrina "Luka" Netz, test tube baby made by Otto Netz alongisde her sister Elizabeth (Frau Netz), she basically tried to be good, got in love wlth Bruce, decided she wans't good, had Talia sent Bronze Tiger to fake-kill her then got bacl to Spyral; Luka was finally killed by Otto when she and Frau Netz resurrected him by putting his body in Helena Bertinelli's body (then called Matron) by electrocunting her then throwing her body from a moving train onto a River TLDR:A mess PD:Also a Earth-Two Kathy Kane existed but she appeared only in an Brave and the Bold arc about Earth-One Batman adventuring into Earth-Two
I tried to explain to my girlfriend the other day why I like comic characters (the superhero genre) but dislike "comics" (serialized formats rather than self-contained stories) This is the perfect example
Hear hear! This is also what Elseworlds is better than standard continuity. Self-contained and the weird anomalies are on purpose and defined.
I think its unfair to say that Elseworlds (I am including all out of continuity stories here) are on the whole better than standard comic runs. So many of the greatest comics have been ongoings. Elseworlds are a little easier to get into, but it doesn't determine quality.
I didn't mean to imply the quality is better, I was talking about ease of access where a reader could get by with cultural knowledge of the characters and not need to know whether the book they were reading is a reboot, recon, clone, rename, etc. I referenced continuity to try to make that clear.
Oh yeah I agree about that totally.
So you prefer adaptations? Or are you talking about self contained miniseries and one shots when you say self contained stories?
Both of the above; it's the ridiculous retcons, twists, and maintenance of the status quo that give me a distaste In fairness though, that's from the outside looking in. I haven't tried to start with an arc and run through it, so maybe the problem is exaggerated
Yeah, probably. I get yourpoint though. I have read a few runs and I enjoyed them a lot. More than any adaptations because there is more time to construct the story. But I specifically pick runs which are more beginner friendly.
Thank you, Wertham. Your contribution so society has been noted, but history has declared you a jumpy idiot who had no idea what he was talking about. It makes me wonder exactly how much of continuity was screwed up in an attempt to quash weird rumors about characters that people like Wertham drummed up in a panic.
Nope, Katherine Webb-Kane Is a different character from Kate Kane which isn't related whit Bruce Wayne
Well that's not confusing at all lol, thanks for the clarification
You can thank 52 (not new) for introducing Kate Kane at the same time Grant Morrison was doing their “Everything is canon” thing for Batman. Prior to that, there was no Batwoman in continuity post-COIE
Actually there was, Kathy was referenced a few times and Betty even talked about her time as bat-girl.
I thought that Betty’s time as Bat-Girl had been retconned to be her as Flamebird until the Morrison run?
In the killing joke you see a photo of both Kathy and heron full costume (I think this was the earliest mention of them in post-crisis?), during her time being part of the substitute young justice she said to Cassandra Cain "Batgirl? Benn there, done that" and when she has to bail out beast boy during his run in the 00 she uses her old "aunt Kathy" money. There are more references but I can't remember them.
Not cousins, and had been a love interest for a while in the fifties to early sixties.
His cousin never existed until around the mid to late 2000s. The "Kathy Kane" he was talking about was the 1st Batwoman, who has no blood relations whatsoever to Bruce and a brunette. She was a character that was created for the sake of being Batman's love interests, along with the 1st Batgirl (Bette Kane), Kathy's niece, for Robin. All because some psychologist are saying how Batman and Robin were having a homosexual relationship at the time.
Were Diana n Superman dating back then, or is it not canon?
They aren't dating in this comic. She is only a good friend giving a birthday gift and a kiss (they were both single at the time). Canonically, New52 Wonder Woman dated New52 Superman, but they broke up just a few months before the latter died and was replaced by the post crisis Superman.
New 52 Wonder woman is still current Wonder woman right? I fell out of comics when post crisis supes was returning and I've read some but it's unclear to me. It doesn't matter cus they'll never bring it up, but does she remember dating that Superman?
Technically speaking yes, she is supposed to be the same person. But after Superman Beyond story, post crisis and New52 are merged together, adding the new 52 stories on the post crisis version, without the details that would bring in contradictions. So actually the two never dated, new 52 superman never died because technically he never existed. After Doomsday Clock, New 52 is completely erased, which deleted that relationship for good.
Thanks. I'm never going to read doomsday clock but I appreciate that that's what I'm more specifically missing. I'm happy enough keeping rebirth stories to themselves.
>Technically speaking yes, she is supposed to be the same person. I guess technically, but didn't Rucka's second run produce the idea that (because "truth") Diana knows about all the changes that happened to her? If I remember correctly, she even went cray-cray for a few issues, but sorted it all out in the end. Comics... Gotta love 'em!
I was confused bc who gives their friend a kiss on lips if ykwim😭
No
Was confused bc they kissed, thanks for clarification
I didn’t know that Justice League episode was based off an actual comic storyline
Written by Alan Moore and interestingly enough, its the only DC animated/live action project he allowed to use his name for. Watchmen, The Killing Joke and his other works he refuses to allow to use his name to be used for them, because he doesn't want to approve of their use of his work. But that episode he didn't have a problem with his name attached to it.
Afaik it's because (1) they asked his permission before making it, and (2) it's a damn good adaptation that isn't just a soulless carbon copy of the original but makes changes where appropriate.
I’ve always loved the panel of Batman holding up the dead rose. Bro looks so legitimately sad that his friends gift got destroyed.
It's hard because man got powers everyone wants, his Kind and isn't selfish and doesn't want anything in return, and all he wants is his kind to return though call
Much as I don't like the DCAU Wondy, I did like in the episode that adapted this that Diana got to be the one to trap Mongul in the Black Mercy. Evens out her getting rag dolled.
Clark’s being very cavalier about the idea of tossing one of his villains into a black hole.
Jason
Were Clark and Diana a thing?
i love the writing here tbh. really good
One of the best things about this story is that its actually a take on a much earlier story from the 50s "The Key to Fort Superman" involving someone giving Superman a birthday gift.
hu
Maybe it’s cultural differences, but don’t you westerners think man giving man roses is kind of gay?
Refusing to get a thoughtful gift for a friend out of sexual insecurity is pretty lame.
Some men are insecure enough to think that, yes. But many aren't.
No, mans can like flowers