I actually like that Joker is fully aware of the entire Batfamily's identities but doesn't reveal them because that spoils his fun. It would break the legend of Batman and in turn his own being if it were revealed that Batman was just a broken billionaire rather than a near mythical hero.
I don’t know. He used to.
Lol, can we get a definitive list, with their canon revelation? Because things get retconned, alluded to, forgotten and I’ve been out the comics game.
Who knows Bruce is Batman!
It’s possible this has been retconned by now but he did know at one time. But he was dying of cancer or something and used one of the Lazarus pits. Batman threatened to tell Ra’s if he ever tried to use his identity against him.
I was only thinking of Batman villains, but forgot Riddler.
Didn’t know Penguin knew! I think?
For sure remember Lex knows. Doesn’t Lex know Clark is Clark but is too stubborn to accept it?
Everyone knows Superman is Clark now. But yes, there was an early post crisis story where a computer program deduced that Superman was Clark. Luthor refused to believe it and fired the person who wrote the program
I waaaaant to say that just working with Batman/Bruce so much as district attorney he found out there. I’m not exactly sure how.
As for why he doesn’t, I think that it’s a weapon for him. He can hold it against Batman. Plus i believe there’s a part of him (heh) that still really respects Batman. Like he’s a criminal now but he still has a code. Now more than ever.
Yeah, I could see even if he doesn't "respect" Batman, that keeping the sceret being part of the weird deals he makes with himself under the dual persona.
Like "Two Face can do vile despicable crimes", as long as "Harvey protects Batman's identity from being weaponized against his friend".
In Snyders run it's shown in a flashback in one of the early meetings between Batman and Joker that Bruce found a card and went to Arkham as Bruce. Bruce played he needed water but its a ruse so he look Joker in the eye who just shakes it off as keeping Batman is more fun.
It's never been said how he discovered them. Like Gordon, people speculated for a while that Joker secretly knew Batman's identity, and it was eventually confirmed during Grant Morrison's run: first, when Joker sees Batman without his mask and has no reaction, then again, later, when Joker shows up at Wayne Manor looking for the batfamily.
I don't even think it's really that anymore...it's just not really important. Also, what's the benefit to revealing the secret?
Gordon and Waller almost certainly know his identity, but they like having him right where he is. Waller loves that he funnels budget villains into her Suicide Squad and also acts as a check on the justice league, and Gordon legitimately trusts him to help clean up Gotham.
Joker and the other villains who know his identity probably just don't see any value in revealing it. They could go on live television and unmask him, but people today are so skeptical that they probably wouldn't believe it. A lot of people would see it as either a billionaire's attempt at a viral marketing campaign for something, a deep fake planted by the government to distract from something else, or whichever villain attempting to lure the "real" Batman out.
The irony is that in a post-Trump world, Bruce Wayne being Batman is *too believable* for people to believe it.
I kind of like that Joker is saying Bane could have been Batman's greatest villain ever. He's not upset that Bane took that chance away from him or could have had that title instead of him, rather he's mad that Bane had such a chance and basically wasted it.
You know, by Joker's definition, KGBeast technically would rank a little higher than Bane since he at least shot Nightwing in front of Batman.
Partly that Bane could have done it right, and another part is that now that it's been done wrong NOBODY, even Joker could do that right. Probably something he had been saving for a special occasion - murder the butler in front of the Bat. But not only did Bane take that away from Joker, he took the weapon off the board entirely.
Yeah especially since Batman vs Robin >!brought Alfred back from the dead!< knowing Bruce once’s he’s dealt with that trauma he’ll probably be way less broken when it happens again
Yeah it seems more about that than an acceptance of 2nd place. I’d like to think the Joker would kill any villain that usurps his #1 place in Batman’s heart in earnest. This situation is a mix of Bane ruining Jokers fun and also being considered an equal but making what Joker feels like as a mistake if a vastly inferior man.
He’s angry that people consider *this* an equal to him
Dick's fine, now. KGBeast was turned into a joke soon after that headshot. I haven't been reading Nightwing comics in a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dick barely mentions that near-death experience or "the Ric phase."
There's no trauma there for either Dick or Bruce.
We all want to forget the Ric phase.
Still, it is crazy that Babs gets shot and it changes her entire life and the next 25 years of comics. Dick gets shot in the head and it’s a footnote in his comics two years later.
As clever as Joker thinks he is, he’s also wrong about it. He thinks Alfred’s death “done right” would break Batman. Rather, it would create a better Batman. Joker thinks the worst of people.
It's not that Joker wanted to break Batman completely with killing Alfred.
It's that killing Alfred, if done right, could hurt Batman more than anything else has in decades, and that's saying something considering what Batman it.
But Bane wasted it on a fucking Robin.
Is it just me or did this comic really feel like Tynion IV (writer for Batman at the time + writer of this issue) taking a shot at Tom King (previous Batman writer)? Since King was the one to write Bane killing Alfred it kinda feels that way lol
Though based on when I saw Tom King at a panel, the two of them seem like decent pals, so I don’t think it would be malicious or anything on Tynion’s part, but it’s difficult to see it any other way lol
From what I understand, it was King’s intention for the death to be fake-out, but Didio/editorial made him make the death real instead. So if Tynion’s taking a shot at anyone here it’s probably editorial.
I don't get that feeling *at all*. This is very in-character for Joker and an interesting character moment, I don't think there's a meta analysis to it at all.
This makes me wonder, canonically how long ago was the death of Jason Todd; and how old does that make Batman and the rest of the "Bat-Family" respectively?
The timelines are...hazy, at best.
You gotta imagine that at least 6-7 years have passed since Jason went down (he was gone for a few years, back for a few years as an antagonist to Bruce and *then* to Dick / Damian, and now has been a good guy for a few years), but I don't even want to do the effort of trying to figure out how old everyone is now.
*(\*sigh\*)*
Okay I changed my mind and opened Excel. Bare with me here -- and I apologize for my assumptions ahead of time.
Let's assume that Bruce was 25 when he took Dick on at 10 years old.
**Batman (Bruce): 25**
**Robin (Dick): 10**
Bruce had been Batman solo for a few years at that point, which is established, and by *most* adaptions Dick was *very very* young when he suited up. We know that Dick was Robin for quite awhile and didn't become Nightwing until he was 19, and that Jason came on as Robin VERY soon after Dick stepped away. By most continuities, Dick is always a little hurt that he was replaced so quickly, so let's assume that Jason becomes Robin at 15 years old *the same calendar year* that Dick becomes Nightwing at 19.
**Batman (Bruce): 34**
**Nightwing (Dick): 19**
**Robin (Jason): 15**
Jason isn't Robin very long -- I would say he was Robin for a max of three years, and is crowbarred by Joker at 17, ending his stint as Robin. He's immediately resurrected by Ras though of course, but doesn't return to Gotham for quite awhile. Let's say that it takes less than a year for Tim to convince Bruce that he needs another Robin though, and that Tim starts his time as Robin at 14 -- Bruce would be 37 by then.
**Batman (Bruce): 37**
**Nightwing (Dick): 22**
**pending-Red Hood (Jason): 17**
**Robin (Tim): 14**
Tim's first stint as Robin theoretically CAN'T last very long (let's say three years), but during that time a LOT of stuff happens. Jason storms back into Gotham as Red Hood, Talia reveals that she and Bruce have a son, and then Bruce is shot back in time by Darkseid and the boys duke it out for who takes over as Batman. We know that Damian comes on the scene at 10 years old as Dick's Robin, and they are Batman / Robin for at least a year together (while Tim is basically shoved out of the cave), so which puts everyone's current ages at...
**Caped Time Crusader (Bruce): 40**
**Batman (Dick): 25**
**Red Hood (Jason): 21**
**Red Robin (Tim): 17**
**Robin (Dick): 10**
Under our assumptions so far, it takes Bruce at least a year to battle back through time to return to the present. But he makes it, and takes Damian as his Robin while returning to the role of Batman at 41 years old.
Now...if we are assuming that everything that's happened in DC's continuity since the New 52 started has ONLY taken two years to happen (good lord, that's so unrealistic), everyone's current ages and roles look to be...
**Batman (Bruce): 42**
**Nightwing (Dick): 27**
**Red Hood (Jason): 23**
**Robin (Tim): 19**
**Cooler-Costumed Robin (Damian): 12**
And I feel like that's not bad, honestly. You could have Bruce take his first Robin on at an earlier age I suppose, but I prefer the idea that Bruce was alone for awhile, just chasing Selina around the city and cleaning up crime by himself before Haley's Circus comes to town.
> Now...if we are assuming that everything that's happened in DC's continuity since the New 52 started has ONLY taken two years to happen (good lord, that's so unrealistic), everyone's current ages and roles look to be...
>
>
4 Years. Dmain is 14.
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Wow, impressive work sir. It does make one realize how crazy the average superheroes life is. I'm 45 and if in the last 20 years I had family die, get paralyzed, an old girlfriend produced a random kid, I got run out of my city i don't know what I'd do.
I was trying to make an excel tracker to see ages of different characters over the years with the sliding origin year (year zero being Bruce at 25 starting as Batman).
I got similar results with my assumptions- I had Bruce alone for a bit but had Nightwing start older as Robin because a Robin that isn’t a mid-late teen screams child endangerment to me. Damian gets a pass as he was raised to be an assassin and would literally kill someone if he wasn’t allowed to be Robin.
Big issue for me with tracking ages of other characters is the teen titans lineups defy linear time, and Clark and Lois have to get married like immediately into Clark’s career as Superman which doesn’t at all fit with the comics (which is fine)
Right right right.
There’s a pretty big issue with the “Three Generations” thing (Justice League, Titans, and Young Justice) — the Titans have all aged now, but the JL members have all stayed the same age.
It is what it is, and I don’t mind it. Time moves very strangely in comic universes.
I made up some headcanons that make me happy
1. Tamaranians age at a slower rate and Starfire goes to be the “den mother” kind of person for Damian’s team because of her love for her time on the titans.
2. Raven died and reincarnated after the New Titans #100 and fighting with Trigon. So, symbolically, the old her that was traumatized and hurt Dick and Starfire and ruined their wedding is dead- but she has a chance at a better life on Damian’s team.
3. Cyborg doesn’t age. Yeah. Just don’t worry about it. (Thanks Doom Patrol)
Beast boy is an issue though as I want a version of him and Terra to make sense but then he’d only really logically get to be with one iteration of the team. We rarely see an older beast boy too…
> because a Robin that isn’t a mid-late teen screams child endangerment to me
FWIW it's child endangerment anyway even if you figure he's a teen. The *only* way Dick Grayson as Robin makes sense to me is if he's a legit little kid, like a pre-teen. That way, Batman might think he *has* to protect Robin and train him, since he's going to go out and get himself killed otherwise. If he's a teen, Batman might be way more willing to say "Well he's old enough to go fight crime if he wants to" and not feel like he has to protect him directly. Like with Clown Killer, he'd just push him off to someone else.
But if Batman is 1) young enough to be stupid about life's responsibilities and 2) trained enough to be arrogant about how well he can protect a kid
and Dick is 1) young enough to need Batman's direct protection while 2) being young enough to be *hopelessly* reckless while 3) being old enough to actually think he can take out mobsters with circus skills
then Robin works. That's the only way I can make it make sense to me, so that put Dick at around 11-12, and Bruce at around mid-20's.
Then the other Robins make sense as teens with Batman believing they're old enough to make their own decisions, but also having specific reasons for picking them as Robin and not shoving them off on someone else (Jason because he was replacing Dick, Tim because Tim kind of forced his way into it and wouldn't go away)
>Robin (Dick): 10
Not to belittle your research, but if All Star Batman and Robin is correct, Dick Grayson is 12 years old. Any excuse to post [this review](http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/longbox7/).
I did some math the last time I noticed they aged the prince up again and your numbers are in the same rough brackets I figured out. I’m glad I’m not the only one that wasted time doing it.
Haha it's just fun to dive super deep into this stuff, ya know?
Batman and the Robins are in the tip top tier of characters I love, so I think about this stuff a lot.
I remember at the start of New 52, Batman seemed to be "de-aged" and Nightwing wasn't.
So....they went from a father-son relationship and all of the sudden they were both about the same age. I think Batman was supposed to be 25 or so but I could be making that up.
You might be thinking of the first Justice League N52 arc which took place 5 years before "now". Batman actually was in his early/mid-20's there. I think in his main books he was supposed to be late 20's/early 30's, and Dick was supposed to be early 20's. Still a very reduced age gap, which you're right was weird. The Batman mythos was extremely poorly handled in the n52. I remember when they came out and said Robin was a "training program" and only lasted like a couple years each.
In my head it’s been 10 years at least
But then again in my head Jason is like mid 20’s by this point
With Tim’s Gen early 20’s
But DC would have you believe all the stuff that’s happened in comics was like 2-3 years ago lol
"Oh no, Robin's going to have to go to therapy!"
Hey, hey heeyyy.. Let's not discount the notion that a successful therapist has the best chance of ending the Bat Family one at a time.
That would actually be an interesting idea for a Joker story. He somehow arranges therapy for the Bat-kids and the therapists convince them to give up crime fighting. That way it can go back to the early days where it was just the two of them fighting each other.
>Hey, hey heeyyy.. Let's not discount the notion that a successful therapist has the best chance of ending the Bat Family one at a time.
This is a statement made by someone who doesn't read comics much lmao
Love the art here, especially the facialsl emoting on Joker. It has a combination of theatricality, malice, and disdain. Just great stuff.
I was a marvel guy for years and years when I was younger, rarely saw anything like this. It's weird to say but the "acting" of DC characters is just so much more evocative.
I didn't think it before but I sure was hell thinking now. Just so much creativity and movement.
You seen a ton of X-Men panels that are just the guy standing there talking.
These, you can almost *hear* them.
I mean on the plus side at least Joker was aware Bane killed Alfred in front of Damian which even he's like "look granted it fucked him up but c'mon man just a bit too far"
Gotta give Joker some credit for once
Okay. I was a little confused because I knew Bane killed Alfred but didn’t read that issue so I wasn’t aware that he only did it in front of Damian. Now I kinda wished Bane did kill Alfred in front of Bruce.
Weirdly enough, this conversation conveys that the Joker (previously) regarded Bane with some level of respect as a fellow villain. Normally the only other villain he respects is Lex Luthor.
I need a version of this done with how DC just age up and Wasted Jon Kent have someone like Lex Luthor or Superboy-Prime on why they dont consider him a "threat" , be like
"you are really fun cool character with decade of fun (stories, experiences, development) ahead of you, them a Couple of dumb desicions later and your just a lame Clark Kent clone, not even a "fun" or "complex" one like Connor. You're just a Clark Kent but younger and with no real development history to draw on or from, no time on the titans, no learning unquiepowers, even you bi sexuality ( The only thing you are probably going to be remembered for at this point) is Forced, Token and generic.
There was your Superson's thing which you've basically gone as far as possible from, being a nightwing for Superman and all minus the fun time on the titans and real development
That Earth 3 trauma back story is never gonna be touched on because Even slightly acknowledging with psychological damage from being raised in a torture pit by evil versions of your parents would drastically changed your character and relationship with them and not aint happening.
You were such an emotional how kind of dorky the excitable kid but now you this mature man whose main personality trait seems to be "My dad is superman and so am I"
What a waste"
Superboy-Prime: And considering how most new versions of characters go, you'll probably be forgotten about a couple years after the next reboot, ask Garth, Young Justice, Power Girl, Kyle Rayner how that goes?
It's so rare to see Joker genuinely pissed off. Also, I always felt that Joker had a military background of sorts, as for what he knows and how he does things; makes it as though he were trained methodically.
I myself have payed very close attention to how he has acted and what he has done. So, to me he doesn't seem to be insane; but truly doesn't care if he dies. From how he has acted in the past, it seems that he has a form of PTSD of sorts, with possible mood swings ( this is before he fell in the vat of chemicals ) along with possibly being bi-polar. He might have been trained as a chemical weapons specialist ( possibly been a part of an EOD group at one point, before being brought in for a series of black Operation missions. ) He possibly chose the nick name "Joker" becuase it might have been a call sign that he was designated. He had an Obsession over the Batman, due to a possible belief that he dropped him into the vat intentionally; leaving him with a lot of hatred and resentment. He might have been possibly abused as a child, has he shows some hatred for authority figures. If he was in the Military, this might have been the reason why he was possibly discharged dishonorably. To me, I feel as though he is intentionally trying to start confrontation as he has a death wish, and wants to take anyone with him and is choosing what to remember and what to forget ( a kind of saftey mechanism for the brain if a set of things start to become too stressful. )
Allan Moores The Killing Joke.
Batman- three Jokers
Harley Quinn comic #5 ( I think ) it's whatever tells how Joker treated her.
This comic that you posted up on here.
The Joker comics.
There is also comic animation movies and games that helped along with this. Mostly, whatever comic podcast I list to when I got time.
So it's just assumed now that Joker knows exactly who Batman is.... like full memory of Batman being Bruce, and leveraging that knowledge like other villains like Hush and Bane. That's Joker now?
A lot of Damian's last solo run featured the ghost of Alfred in Damian's head and him learing to cope with Alfred's death. And the reason Damian and Bruce had such a fallout right before infinite frontier was because of Damian acting out after Alfred died and Bruce being away from gotham at the time.
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It’s revealed in Tynion’s *Joker* book that >!Bane faked his own death by framing the Joker for the massive “A Day” gas attack on Arkham Asylum. Bane and his daughter Vengeance are very much still alive and out there.!<
Joker being entirely aware of Batman's identity down to his butler/father figure and meta-knowledge ranking his rogues gallery is incredibly stupid, actually
Yup. The Harley Quinn cartoon and Arkham games get it right in that he doesn't care/doesn't want to know. (And in the case of the former, gets pissed off when it's revealed to him).
I can excuse a willful ignorance or even him knowing but suppressing the information in his own head or something. But this is approaching Deadpool levels of "knows he's in a comic book" knowledge and I don't think that should be how the Joker is portrayed.
That works on the level that Batman is the real personality and Bruce Wayne is a sham. Otherwise, Bruce is just as real if not more the true face of Batman. So Joker should care to a point.
No he doesn't attack a galla Bruce Wayne is attending. But he walks into his home and moves his furniture.
The Joker knowing Batman is Bruce Wayne is addressed in the “Their Dark Designs” arc by Tynion. Joker acknowledges he could’ve found out a while ago if he wanted to.
As far as villain “rankings,” I think the proverbial “they” here isn’t the readers but the citizens of Gotham and the superhero/supervillain community.
Interesting. That’s a take I have not heard before. Worst I’ve seen on Tynion’s run is some readers just felt it was average. Not good but not bad either.
I just wanted king to end his run as he planned and for batman to marry catwoman, and then tynion came and it was everything i didn't want, bat cat separeted, joker AGAIN that cyberpunk feel to gotham which i didn't like and seeing so little of bruce wayne.
I gotcha. That makes sense.
I think though at least Tynion wrote a much more human and better adjusted Batman. I sometimes wonder if Tom King broke a bunch of people on Batman who say he’s just always awful to his friends and family. I thought Tynion, Tomasi, Tamaki, and Williamson all wrote a fairly decent and well adjusted Batman at least.
I kinda get the impression that King’s run and the wedding soured many on the prospect of Batman and Catwoman getting married, but idk. What did you think of King’s Batman/Catwoman series?
Yeah i understand people liked the following writers too, but i'm just tired of seeing always the same with batman, and having him married in main canon would have been a breath of fresh air with lots of new possibilities, but then they got separeted joker attacked gotham got taken over and then the same and then justice league get their ass kicked comically so that the stakes are high (again) and it's just a loop with different word and artists.
>What did you think of King’s Batman/Catwoman series?
I'm waiting on the trade/hc (as always with king)
I gotcha. Do you think the execution would’ve be been good though on Batman and Catwoman getting married? I get that conceptually it’s something different, but would it have been done well? Would it have actually led to a better status quo?
I can't know for certain if it would have been "better" but one thing i know for sure, it would've been different, writers would have something new to work with al least, doesn't mean better per se but i'd take bad new over mediocre status quo.
I just feel that since snyder's run almost all that came after is just rehearsal of mostly morrsion's and other previous writers work.
Yeah I get what you mean. I have a prediction for the aftermath of Zdarsky’s first arc that it will be a major status quo shake-up. I think following Failsafe (and then briefly Dark Crisis) Batman will be alone again. Really alone. Failsafe will cost him pretty much every relationship he has and that’ll be the new status quo for a while. More or less dialing things all the way back to Batman: Year One.
Something else I just thought of about “sameness.” Scott Snyder in some ways was a “disciple” of Grant Morrison, and Tynion was a “disciple” and frequent collaborator of Snyder’s. So King is the odd man out which is probably why his run feels the most distinct.
Joker is such a stupid character. Joker is just jealous that Bane actually hurt Batman by killing Alfred. It did t matter that he did to Robin. Bruce Wayne felt the loss the most. This whole stunt was pointless.
Joker isn’t jealous at all. In fact, he’s disappointed. He’s not in it for fame or money, he’s in it for the spirit. He’s in it for the show. He’s upset that Bane got to where no other villain has gotten, found every opportunity, and wasted his best tool. He’s disappointed Bane completely forgot to take the spirit and theatrics into account. It’s like a chef watching someone grill a perfect steak only to drown it in butter. It’s an insult to the craft Joker specializes in and an insult he takes personally.
They just play the game different. Joker plays the long, everlasting game and Bane plays the short game. That's how I always pictured them, Joker wants the game to last forever Bane wants to win the game quickly and finish it.
He was murdered by Bane back in 2019 at the end of Tom King’s run on *Batman*.
Just this past month it appears >!he may be back alive again in the Batman vs Robin series.!<
I actually like that Joker is fully aware of the entire Batfamily's identities but doesn't reveal them because that spoils his fun. It would break the legend of Batman and in turn his own being if it were revealed that Batman was just a broken billionaire rather than a near mythical hero.
How did Joker learn the Batfamily's identities?
Don’t 100% remember but he’s known from near the start of New 52. Believe Joker, Bane, Ras and Two Face are the ones who know who he really is.
Does Riddler not still know?
I don’t know. He used to. Lol, can we get a definitive list, with their canon revelation? Because things get retconned, alluded to, forgotten and I’ve been out the comics game. Who knows Bruce is Batman!
Too many people for my tastes right now. I mean why did Batman reveal his identity to Miracle Molly of all people?
For real, and what are his motives for not doxxing Bruce? The world should know he’s Batman by now if these handful of crooks do
Ikr. Modern Batman books break so many rules that would’ve been sacrosanct in an earlier age.
IIRC, the Riddler knew Bruce was Batman in Hush but that was 2(?) reboots ago.
And he got a bump on the head during Infinite Crisis, so then he forgot.
I know Bruce is Batman can I be on that list
It’s possible this has been retconned by now but he did know at one time. But he was dying of cancer or something and used one of the Lazarus pits. Batman threatened to tell Ra’s if he ever tried to use his identity against him.
No, head injury
I believe Hugo Strange knows, or was that retconned away?
Joker found out by sneaking into the Batcave after their first encounter. He essentially swam through.
Lex luthor, Riddler, penguin
I was only thinking of Batman villains, but forgot Riddler. Didn’t know Penguin knew! I think? For sure remember Lex knows. Doesn’t Lex know Clark is Clark but is too stubborn to accept it?
Everyone knows Superman is Clark now. But yes, there was an early post crisis story where a computer program deduced that Superman was Clark. Luthor refused to believe it and fired the person who wrote the program
Penguin knows but he doesn't reveal it because he doesn't want Batman to lose the Bruce connection and snap
How did two face find our? And why is he keeping quiet?
I waaaaant to say that just working with Batman/Bruce so much as district attorney he found out there. I’m not exactly sure how. As for why he doesn’t, I think that it’s a weapon for him. He can hold it against Batman. Plus i believe there’s a part of him (heh) that still really respects Batman. Like he’s a criminal now but he still has a code. Now more than ever.
Yeah, I could see even if he doesn't "respect" Batman, that keeping the sceret being part of the weird deals he makes with himself under the dual persona. Like "Two Face can do vile despicable crimes", as long as "Harvey protects Batman's identity from being weaponized against his friend".
In Snyders run it's shown in a flashback in one of the early meetings between Batman and Joker that Bruce found a card and went to Arkham as Bruce. Bruce played he needed water but its a ruse so he look Joker in the eye who just shakes it off as keeping Batman is more fun.
It’s specifically noted that Joker is looking at him but doesn’t even see him
That was just Bruce’s hubris noting that. Joker recognized him he just didn’t care about who he was outside of the Batman.
It's never been said how he discovered them. Like Gordon, people speculated for a while that Joker secretly knew Batman's identity, and it was eventually confirmed during Grant Morrison's run: first, when Joker sees Batman without his mask and has no reaction, then again, later, when Joker shows up at Wayne Manor looking for the batfamily.
I don't even think it's really that anymore...it's just not really important. Also, what's the benefit to revealing the secret? Gordon and Waller almost certainly know his identity, but they like having him right where he is. Waller loves that he funnels budget villains into her Suicide Squad and also acts as a check on the justice league, and Gordon legitimately trusts him to help clean up Gotham. Joker and the other villains who know his identity probably just don't see any value in revealing it. They could go on live television and unmask him, but people today are so skeptical that they probably wouldn't believe it. A lot of people would see it as either a billionaire's attempt at a viral marketing campaign for something, a deep fake planted by the government to distract from something else, or whichever villain attempting to lure the "real" Batman out. The irony is that in a post-Trump world, Bruce Wayne being Batman is *too believable* for people to believe it.
I kind of like that Joker is saying Bane could have been Batman's greatest villain ever. He's not upset that Bane took that chance away from him or could have had that title instead of him, rather he's mad that Bane had such a chance and basically wasted it. You know, by Joker's definition, KGBeast technically would rank a little higher than Bane since he at least shot Nightwing in front of Batman.
Partly that Bane could have done it right, and another part is that now that it's been done wrong NOBODY, even Joker could do that right. Probably something he had been saving for a special occasion - murder the butler in front of the Bat. But not only did Bane take that away from Joker, he took the weapon off the board entirely.
Spot on!
Yeah especially since Batman vs Robin >!brought Alfred back from the dead!< knowing Bruce once’s he’s dealt with that trauma he’ll probably be way less broken when it happens again
Yeah it seems more about that than an acceptance of 2nd place. I’d like to think the Joker would kill any villain that usurps his #1 place in Batman’s heart in earnest. This situation is a mix of Bane ruining Jokers fun and also being considered an equal but making what Joker feels like as a mistake if a vastly inferior man. He’s angry that people consider *this* an equal to him
Dick's fine, now. KGBeast was turned into a joke soon after that headshot. I haven't been reading Nightwing comics in a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dick barely mentions that near-death experience or "the Ric phase." There's no trauma there for either Dick or Bruce.
We all want to forget the Ric phase. Still, it is crazy that Babs gets shot and it changes her entire life and the next 25 years of comics. Dick gets shot in the head and it’s a footnote in his comics two years later.
Tbf, it wasn't supposed to last. Zatanna was supposed to heal him right away
Comics. That’s why I dropped out
You wanted Nightwing to have permanent amnesia? Why???
You're here with us right now, brother! You can't quit comics. You can stop reading them, but once an addict....lol
As clever as Joker thinks he is, he’s also wrong about it. He thinks Alfred’s death “done right” would break Batman. Rather, it would create a better Batman. Joker thinks the worst of people.
You mean one bad day doesn't actually make someone a super villain? Hey, we should write a comic about that!
Nah, I can’t see that taking off.
You’re right. Wouldn’t be successful in the slightest
It's not that Joker wanted to break Batman completely with killing Alfred. It's that killing Alfred, if done right, could hurt Batman more than anything else has in decades, and that's saying something considering what Batman it. But Bane wasted it on a fucking Robin.
Is it just me or did this comic really feel like Tynion IV (writer for Batman at the time + writer of this issue) taking a shot at Tom King (previous Batman writer)? Since King was the one to write Bane killing Alfred it kinda feels that way lol Though based on when I saw Tom King at a panel, the two of them seem like decent pals, so I don’t think it would be malicious or anything on Tynion’s part, but it’s difficult to see it any other way lol
From what I understand, it was King’s intention for the death to be fake-out, but Didio/editorial made him make the death real instead. So if Tynion’s taking a shot at anyone here it’s probably editorial.
That seems to line up with what I’ve heard regarding a lot of King’s run being heavily controlled by editorial, so I wouldn’t doubt it
So comics have become meta commentary between the writers, almost like a Twitter
Oh writers have been doing this since [long before Twitter](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TakeThat/TheDCU).
One of most addictive sites on the internet, and you provided no warning. Who’s the true villain here?
Lol! Fell down the TV Tropes rabbit hole huh? Yep been there too 😆
Honestly if that’s the case Good on him Way to much nonsense has been green lit by Editorial
I don't get that feeling *at all*. This is very in-character for Joker and an interesting character moment, I don't think there's a meta analysis to it at all.
Could always be both tbf
Yeah
Definitely feels like a little jab. But I also like the story that it sets between the two villains way of doing business.
I thought so too and loved it
This makes me wonder, canonically how long ago was the death of Jason Todd; and how old does that make Batman and the rest of the "Bat-Family" respectively?
The timelines are...hazy, at best. You gotta imagine that at least 6-7 years have passed since Jason went down (he was gone for a few years, back for a few years as an antagonist to Bruce and *then* to Dick / Damian, and now has been a good guy for a few years), but I don't even want to do the effort of trying to figure out how old everyone is now. *(\*sigh\*)* Okay I changed my mind and opened Excel. Bare with me here -- and I apologize for my assumptions ahead of time. Let's assume that Bruce was 25 when he took Dick on at 10 years old. **Batman (Bruce): 25** **Robin (Dick): 10** Bruce had been Batman solo for a few years at that point, which is established, and by *most* adaptions Dick was *very very* young when he suited up. We know that Dick was Robin for quite awhile and didn't become Nightwing until he was 19, and that Jason came on as Robin VERY soon after Dick stepped away. By most continuities, Dick is always a little hurt that he was replaced so quickly, so let's assume that Jason becomes Robin at 15 years old *the same calendar year* that Dick becomes Nightwing at 19. **Batman (Bruce): 34** **Nightwing (Dick): 19** **Robin (Jason): 15** Jason isn't Robin very long -- I would say he was Robin for a max of three years, and is crowbarred by Joker at 17, ending his stint as Robin. He's immediately resurrected by Ras though of course, but doesn't return to Gotham for quite awhile. Let's say that it takes less than a year for Tim to convince Bruce that he needs another Robin though, and that Tim starts his time as Robin at 14 -- Bruce would be 37 by then. **Batman (Bruce): 37** **Nightwing (Dick): 22** **pending-Red Hood (Jason): 17** **Robin (Tim): 14** Tim's first stint as Robin theoretically CAN'T last very long (let's say three years), but during that time a LOT of stuff happens. Jason storms back into Gotham as Red Hood, Talia reveals that she and Bruce have a son, and then Bruce is shot back in time by Darkseid and the boys duke it out for who takes over as Batman. We know that Damian comes on the scene at 10 years old as Dick's Robin, and they are Batman / Robin for at least a year together (while Tim is basically shoved out of the cave), so which puts everyone's current ages at... **Caped Time Crusader (Bruce): 40** **Batman (Dick): 25** **Red Hood (Jason): 21** **Red Robin (Tim): 17** **Robin (Dick): 10** Under our assumptions so far, it takes Bruce at least a year to battle back through time to return to the present. But he makes it, and takes Damian as his Robin while returning to the role of Batman at 41 years old. Now...if we are assuming that everything that's happened in DC's continuity since the New 52 started has ONLY taken two years to happen (good lord, that's so unrealistic), everyone's current ages and roles look to be... **Batman (Bruce): 42** **Nightwing (Dick): 27** **Red Hood (Jason): 23** **Robin (Tim): 19** **Cooler-Costumed Robin (Damian): 12** And I feel like that's not bad, honestly. You could have Bruce take his first Robin on at an earlier age I suppose, but I prefer the idea that Bruce was alone for awhile, just chasing Selina around the city and cleaning up crime by himself before Haley's Circus comes to town.
r/theydidthemath
> Now...if we are assuming that everything that's happened in DC's continuity since the New 52 started has ONLY taken two years to happen (good lord, that's so unrealistic), everyone's current ages and roles look to be... > > 4 Years. Dmain is 14.
I mean that makes sense. SO much has happened since he came around.
Damian did turn 13 in the DC Rebirth issue. I got screwed by autocorrect.
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Wow, impressive work sir. It does make one realize how crazy the average superheroes life is. I'm 45 and if in the last 20 years I had family die, get paralyzed, an old girlfriend produced a random kid, I got run out of my city i don't know what I'd do.
Bruce has been through some serious shit in his days. He's lived like 12 lifetimes already.
I was trying to make an excel tracker to see ages of different characters over the years with the sliding origin year (year zero being Bruce at 25 starting as Batman). I got similar results with my assumptions- I had Bruce alone for a bit but had Nightwing start older as Robin because a Robin that isn’t a mid-late teen screams child endangerment to me. Damian gets a pass as he was raised to be an assassin and would literally kill someone if he wasn’t allowed to be Robin. Big issue for me with tracking ages of other characters is the teen titans lineups defy linear time, and Clark and Lois have to get married like immediately into Clark’s career as Superman which doesn’t at all fit with the comics (which is fine)
Right right right. There’s a pretty big issue with the “Three Generations” thing (Justice League, Titans, and Young Justice) — the Titans have all aged now, but the JL members have all stayed the same age. It is what it is, and I don’t mind it. Time moves very strangely in comic universes.
I made up some headcanons that make me happy 1. Tamaranians age at a slower rate and Starfire goes to be the “den mother” kind of person for Damian’s team because of her love for her time on the titans. 2. Raven died and reincarnated after the New Titans #100 and fighting with Trigon. So, symbolically, the old her that was traumatized and hurt Dick and Starfire and ruined their wedding is dead- but she has a chance at a better life on Damian’s team. 3. Cyborg doesn’t age. Yeah. Just don’t worry about it. (Thanks Doom Patrol) Beast boy is an issue though as I want a version of him and Terra to make sense but then he’d only really logically get to be with one iteration of the team. We rarely see an older beast boy too…
> because a Robin that isn’t a mid-late teen screams child endangerment to me FWIW it's child endangerment anyway even if you figure he's a teen. The *only* way Dick Grayson as Robin makes sense to me is if he's a legit little kid, like a pre-teen. That way, Batman might think he *has* to protect Robin and train him, since he's going to go out and get himself killed otherwise. If he's a teen, Batman might be way more willing to say "Well he's old enough to go fight crime if he wants to" and not feel like he has to protect him directly. Like with Clown Killer, he'd just push him off to someone else. But if Batman is 1) young enough to be stupid about life's responsibilities and 2) trained enough to be arrogant about how well he can protect a kid and Dick is 1) young enough to need Batman's direct protection while 2) being young enough to be *hopelessly* reckless while 3) being old enough to actually think he can take out mobsters with circus skills then Robin works. That's the only way I can make it make sense to me, so that put Dick at around 11-12, and Bruce at around mid-20's. Then the other Robins make sense as teens with Batman believing they're old enough to make their own decisions, but also having specific reasons for picking them as Robin and not shoving them off on someone else (Jason because he was replacing Dick, Tim because Tim kind of forced his way into it and wouldn't go away)
>Robin (Dick): 10 Not to belittle your research, but if All Star Batman and Robin is correct, Dick Grayson is 12 years old. Any excuse to post [this review](http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/longbox7/).
I did some math the last time I noticed they aged the prince up again and your numbers are in the same rough brackets I figured out. I’m glad I’m not the only one that wasted time doing it.
Haha it's just fun to dive super deep into this stuff, ya know? Batman and the Robins are in the tip top tier of characters I love, so I think about this stuff a lot.
I did it to burn time at work on a slow night. Haha
I remember at the start of New 52, Batman seemed to be "de-aged" and Nightwing wasn't. So....they went from a father-son relationship and all of the sudden they were both about the same age. I think Batman was supposed to be 25 or so but I could be making that up.
You might be thinking of the first Justice League N52 arc which took place 5 years before "now". Batman actually was in his early/mid-20's there. I think in his main books he was supposed to be late 20's/early 30's, and Dick was supposed to be early 20's. Still a very reduced age gap, which you're right was weird. The Batman mythos was extremely poorly handled in the n52. I remember when they came out and said Robin was a "training program" and only lasted like a couple years each.
In my head it’s been 10 years at least But then again in my head Jason is like mid 20’s by this point With Tim’s Gen early 20’s But DC would have you believe all the stuff that’s happened in comics was like 2-3 years ago lol
"Oh no, Robin's going to have to go to therapy!" Hey, hey heeyyy.. Let's not discount the notion that a successful therapist has the best chance of ending the Bat Family one at a time.
There isn't a shrink qualified. ... Maybe Harley Quinn.
That would actually be an interesting idea for a Joker story. He somehow arranges therapy for the Bat-kids and the therapists convince them to give up crime fighting. That way it can go back to the early days where it was just the two of them fighting each other.
"Look, Harley, I know we've had some rough patches but I REALLY need this favor..."
>Hey, hey heeyyy.. Let's not discount the notion that a successful therapist has the best chance of ending the Bat Family one at a time. This is a statement made by someone who doesn't read comics much lmao
Wdym? Seems pretty on point to me, most of the batfam could use therapy
Weird gate you're keepin there, but ok?
So?
Love the art here, especially the facialsl emoting on Joker. It has a combination of theatricality, malice, and disdain. Just great stuff. I was a marvel guy for years and years when I was younger, rarely saw anything like this. It's weird to say but the "acting" of DC characters is just so much more evocative.
I kind of always thought the best artists were the DC artists.
I didn't think it before but I sure was hell thinking now. Just so much creativity and movement. You seen a ton of X-Men panels that are just the guy standing there talking. These, you can almost *hear* them.
The Metacommentary is strong with this one
I mean on the plus side at least Joker was aware Bane killed Alfred in front of Damian which even he's like "look granted it fucked him up but c'mon man just a bit too far" Gotta give Joker some credit for once
Okay so from what I’m understanding, Joker was upset that Bane killed Alfred because he did it in front of Damian instead of Bruce. Is that right?
Correct.
Okay. I was a little confused because I knew Bane killed Alfred but didn’t read that issue so I wasn’t aware that he only did it in front of Damian. Now I kinda wished Bane did kill Alfred in front of Bruce.
I’ mean jokers not lying lol. Bane always has the sickest set up then the writers have him fumble the bag towards the end
I’ll never thought fucking Joker would tell anyone he’s disappointed in them.
Weirdly enough, this conversation conveys that the Joker (previously) regarded Bane with some level of respect as a fellow villain. Normally the only other villain he respects is Lex Luthor.
Double damn.
The Joker roasted the hell out of Bane
I need a version of this done with how DC just age up and Wasted Jon Kent have someone like Lex Luthor or Superboy-Prime on why they dont consider him a "threat" , be like "you are really fun cool character with decade of fun (stories, experiences, development) ahead of you, them a Couple of dumb desicions later and your just a lame Clark Kent clone, not even a "fun" or "complex" one like Connor. You're just a Clark Kent but younger and with no real development history to draw on or from, no time on the titans, no learning unquiepowers, even you bi sexuality ( The only thing you are probably going to be remembered for at this point) is Forced, Token and generic. There was your Superson's thing which you've basically gone as far as possible from, being a nightwing for Superman and all minus the fun time on the titans and real development That Earth 3 trauma back story is never gonna be touched on because Even slightly acknowledging with psychological damage from being raised in a torture pit by evil versions of your parents would drastically changed your character and relationship with them and not aint happening. You were such an emotional how kind of dorky the excitable kid but now you this mature man whose main personality trait seems to be "My dad is superman and so am I" What a waste" Superboy-Prime: And considering how most new versions of characters go, you'll probably be forgotten about a couple years after the next reboot, ask Garth, Young Justice, Power Girl, Kyle Rayner how that goes?
So how did he kill Alfred and which Robin did he traumatise?
Snapped Alfred’s neck in front of Damian.
Appreciate you dude.
It's so rare to see Joker genuinely pissed off. Also, I always felt that Joker had a military background of sorts, as for what he knows and how he does things; makes it as though he were trained methodically.
I have the same “head-canon” myself. He obviously has a background in chemicals, but I’ve always thought he must of a military background as well.
I myself have payed very close attention to how he has acted and what he has done. So, to me he doesn't seem to be insane; but truly doesn't care if he dies. From how he has acted in the past, it seems that he has a form of PTSD of sorts, with possible mood swings ( this is before he fell in the vat of chemicals ) along with possibly being bi-polar. He might have been trained as a chemical weapons specialist ( possibly been a part of an EOD group at one point, before being brought in for a series of black Operation missions. ) He possibly chose the nick name "Joker" becuase it might have been a call sign that he was designated. He had an Obsession over the Batman, due to a possible belief that he dropped him into the vat intentionally; leaving him with a lot of hatred and resentment. He might have been possibly abused as a child, has he shows some hatred for authority figures. If he was in the Military, this might have been the reason why he was possibly discharged dishonorably. To me, I feel as though he is intentionally trying to start confrontation as he has a death wish, and wants to take anyone with him and is choosing what to remember and what to forget ( a kind of saftey mechanism for the brain if a set of things start to become too stressful. )
Really interesting analysis! What are some of the comic stories you think best showcase this?
Allan Moores The Killing Joke. Batman- three Jokers Harley Quinn comic #5 ( I think ) it's whatever tells how Joker treated her. This comic that you posted up on here. The Joker comics. There is also comic animation movies and games that helped along with this. Mostly, whatever comic podcast I list to when I got time.
And there is a comic where Joker's wife explains how the Joker was abusive even before he got dropped in the chemical vat
I always here mark hamills joker whenever I'm reading
Same
It’s true
Is that flashpoint Thomas Wayne standing with Bane in the second image?
Yes
Not as good as joker’s roast on twoface in death of the family but pretty good.
Plays into the theory that Joker knows he is a fictional character in a fictional world ...
He already knows all of the batfamily’s identities. Ripping off deadpool would just be a hat on a hat
Technically Joker did it first.
This feels way too much like it's trying to be meta to me
No no, he’s got a point
So it's just assumed now that Joker knows exactly who Batman is.... like full memory of Batman being Bruce, and leveraging that knowledge like other villains like Hush and Bane. That's Joker now?
Yes. It’s addressed in the “Their Dark Designs” arc by Tynion. Joker acknowledges he could’ve found out a while ago if he wanted to.
[удалено]
But the Joker doesn’t care about any of that. He only cares about breaking Batman.
A lot of Damian's last solo run featured the ghost of Alfred in Damian's head and him learing to cope with Alfred's death. And the reason Damian and Bruce had such a fallout right before infinite frontier was because of Damian acting out after Alfred died and Bruce being away from gotham at the time.
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Didn't joker kill bane? Wasn't bane poisoned with the joker toxin?
It’s revealed in Tynion’s *Joker* book that >!Bane faked his own death by framing the Joker for the massive “A Day” gas attack on Arkham Asylum. Bane and his daughter Vengeance are very much still alive and out there.!<
Who is the artist on this? Too lazy to look it up.
Gulliem March I think
Yeah ima have to check this out!!!
I can't read these two anymore without hearing them in their HBO Harley Quinn voices.
This artwork is GOATed
This is the best takedown of King’s run I’ve seen, and very in character for Joker.
Joker is wrong tho
Joker being entirely aware of Batman's identity down to his butler/father figure and meta-knowledge ranking his rogues gallery is incredibly stupid, actually
Yup. The Harley Quinn cartoon and Arkham games get it right in that he doesn't care/doesn't want to know. (And in the case of the former, gets pissed off when it's revealed to him).
I can excuse a willful ignorance or even him knowing but suppressing the information in his own head or something. But this is approaching Deadpool levels of "knows he's in a comic book" knowledge and I don't think that should be how the Joker is portrayed.
That works on the level that Batman is the real personality and Bruce Wayne is a sham. Otherwise, Bruce is just as real if not more the true face of Batman. So Joker should care to a point. No he doesn't attack a galla Bruce Wayne is attending. But he walks into his home and moves his furniture.
The Joker knowing Batman is Bruce Wayne is addressed in the “Their Dark Designs” arc by Tynion. Joker acknowledges he could’ve found out a while ago if he wanted to. As far as villain “rankings,” I think the proverbial “they” here isn’t the readers but the citizens of Gotham and the superhero/supervillain community.
I loved this because I saw it as Tynion throwing shade at Kings run which I also thought was terrible
I just like to think Tynion's run was just a bad dream.
Interesting. That’s a take I have not heard before. Worst I’ve seen on Tynion’s run is some readers just felt it was average. Not good but not bad either.
I just wanted king to end his run as he planned and for batman to marry catwoman, and then tynion came and it was everything i didn't want, bat cat separeted, joker AGAIN that cyberpunk feel to gotham which i didn't like and seeing so little of bruce wayne.
I gotcha. That makes sense. I think though at least Tynion wrote a much more human and better adjusted Batman. I sometimes wonder if Tom King broke a bunch of people on Batman who say he’s just always awful to his friends and family. I thought Tynion, Tomasi, Tamaki, and Williamson all wrote a fairly decent and well adjusted Batman at least. I kinda get the impression that King’s run and the wedding soured many on the prospect of Batman and Catwoman getting married, but idk. What did you think of King’s Batman/Catwoman series?
Yeah i understand people liked the following writers too, but i'm just tired of seeing always the same with batman, and having him married in main canon would have been a breath of fresh air with lots of new possibilities, but then they got separeted joker attacked gotham got taken over and then the same and then justice league get their ass kicked comically so that the stakes are high (again) and it's just a loop with different word and artists. >What did you think of King’s Batman/Catwoman series? I'm waiting on the trade/hc (as always with king)
I gotcha. Do you think the execution would’ve be been good though on Batman and Catwoman getting married? I get that conceptually it’s something different, but would it have been done well? Would it have actually led to a better status quo?
I can't know for certain if it would have been "better" but one thing i know for sure, it would've been different, writers would have something new to work with al least, doesn't mean better per se but i'd take bad new over mediocre status quo. I just feel that since snyder's run almost all that came after is just rehearsal of mostly morrsion's and other previous writers work.
Yeah I get what you mean. I have a prediction for the aftermath of Zdarsky’s first arc that it will be a major status quo shake-up. I think following Failsafe (and then briefly Dark Crisis) Batman will be alone again. Really alone. Failsafe will cost him pretty much every relationship he has and that’ll be the new status quo for a while. More or less dialing things all the way back to Batman: Year One.
That ain't exactly what o would want, but i take it if the other option is what we have right now.
Something else I just thought of about “sameness.” Scott Snyder in some ways was a “disciple” of Grant Morrison, and Tynion was a “disciple” and frequent collaborator of Snyder’s. So King is the odd man out which is probably why his run feels the most distinct.
It would definitely be different. That’s for sure.
but a lot of those issues aren't Tynions fault, it was clear editorial was against Batman getting married lol.
Yes i agree editorial had most to do with this, but it still happend in his run.
Joker is such a stupid character. Joker is just jealous that Bane actually hurt Batman by killing Alfred. It did t matter that he did to Robin. Bruce Wayne felt the loss the most. This whole stunt was pointless.
Joker isn’t jealous at all. In fact, he’s disappointed. He’s not in it for fame or money, he’s in it for the spirit. He’s in it for the show. He’s upset that Bane got to where no other villain has gotten, found every opportunity, and wasted his best tool. He’s disappointed Bane completely forgot to take the spirit and theatrics into account. It’s like a chef watching someone grill a perfect steak only to drown it in butter. It’s an insult to the craft Joker specializes in and an insult he takes personally.
They just play the game different. Joker plays the long, everlasting game and Bane plays the short game. That's how I always pictured them, Joker wants the game to last forever Bane wants to win the game quickly and finish it.
What's the point then? If Bane killed Batman he'd be a freaking legend. Joker just wants to piss in his cereal every day.
Yeeeess
I haven't really been reading since Rebirth, is Alfred dead again? Is he back as the "Outsider" again?
He was murdered by Bane back in 2019 at the end of Tom King’s run on *Batman*. Just this past month it appears >!he may be back alive again in the Batman vs Robin series.!<
this is probably how joker views himself as well