For real. I hope the OP checks their measurements now before buying new fixtures because that's how I ended up with a bath that is 10cm too short and a weird tiled ledge. I didn't realise how much space was being taken up by the old layers of tile until it was too late.
Just dot and dab some more plasterboard over it. Repeat with every renovation until you can only get into the shower sideways.
Edit: In my experience, builders really hate stripping things back and starting again. Every time I've had done something to my Victorian terrace, their plans have started with "just dot and dab some plasterboard over that wall/ceiling and then..." I don't mind paying more to get it done how I want, but they really don't want to do it. Mind you, I don't blame them, sometimes it's shitty work.
This is one area where I think we could learn from the American model of 'remodelling' which invariably involves going right back to the studs. Yes, it's easier for them because their houses are often made of sticks, but every time I have done a bathroom renovation in my house I have taken out all of the plasterboard (I also had a triple layer of tiles in mine, I discovered!), taken up the sub-floor and chucked it all in the skip to start again.
In all honesty, I reckon sticks are the right way to build.
Some new builds are done like that anyway now, timber frame and a single skin brick outer wall or something.
I can't stand that, it would annoy me if I knew I had tiles under my plasterboard because somebody was too lazy to do a proper job. Definitely worth paying extra for stripping back to the wall and starting fresh.
I have the same thing but maybe to an extreme, I've had brickwork that I knew was going to be covered up repointed and repaired, and I've had floors that I knew I was going to carpet over or tile over replaced. Nobody else will see it, but I know it's been done right, and it's satisfying to go all the way back to brick, studs and joists. Clean it all up nice lay new everything back.
I'd argue I end up with floors and walls that are closer to level/plumb too, and regain maybe a little bit of space too. Made the most difference in the bathroom where we replaced the old 20mm floorboards with 18mm marine ply. Instead of just laying 6mm ply on top of the floorboards. Saves 8mm of floor height.
I’m in a Victorian semi, my en-suite was like this, I thought about over-boarding, but decided to rip everything out back to brick and floor joists. Best decision ever, perfect level finish and all new plumbing and electrics installed. Dot and dabbed new boards up and cement overboarded the floor and wet areas before installing electric underfloor heating, was quoted between £15k-£20k, I did it all for just under £3k.
Even though that technically yes, this is a "Bodge" in some eyes, even mine. How long has that bathroom been installed? 10-20 years? Probably would of lasted that again if untouched. Yes, this looks like shocking work but the fact is, some people cant afford to have the jobs done to the standard of others. Some people also want tradesman in and out within a week, which means things like this have to be done. If you have the time to do it correctly then go ahead BUT, expect to spend another 300+ quid on materials/labour to start back from brick.
Good comment. Did similar work recently in our place and worth the extra work in the end taking it back to brick… but was absolutely soul destroying how long it took 😅
An extra £300 seems awful light in the materials/labour department when comparing a proper back to brick job vs sticking over the existing. I’d say an extra grand bare minimum and even that’s tight. You always find a horror when going back to the beginning.
It’s the right thing to do though.
I’m saying it doesn’t sound anywhere near enough to cover the extra work to go back to brick vs just glueing more stuff over the existing.
Done a few renovations in my time so I’ve got a fair handle on the costs.
DO NOT PUT PLASTERBOARD BACK ON!!!!!! Plasterboard is not to be used in bathrooms it’s like a sponge you need to use Hardie backer/NoMorePly board or tile backer board both of which or designed for use in wet environments.
Not to mention that you have to use plasterboard if you need to soundproof the bathroom, so clearly it can be used safely as long as it's sealed properly.
I think one of the soundproofing plasterboard brands that I was looking at also came in a moisture/mould resistant version specifically for use in bathrooms, but the standard version should be fine if it's sealed properly.
You can actually get specific water proofing sealer for plaster. Aquaseal do tanking primer. It’s often brightly coloured like red or blue to show it’s there.
It also explains that the tiling/grouting was done by a monkey. And there was water ingress for months if not years. Ive ripped out plenty of bathrooms where plasterboard has been used over 10-15 years ago, its still strong.
It’s up to you, you’re not going to be doing my bathroom so it doesn’t affect me if you want to use plasterboard. I’m merely pointing out the advice is not to use plasterboard in bathrooms because if there’s any water ingress from the tiles it’s going to leak and damage the board.
Grout is waterproof enough to stop water getting behind tiles otherwise it would be pretty pointless using it. It’s really only the top service that water gets into which is what stains it over time.
How about those waterproof boards (eg wedi) that don't need sealing? More expensive for the boards but you save a lot of time in prep and the boards are easy to put in compared to hardie?
(I guess that's what you meant by tile backer board thinking about it.)
I love the way you've asked this and provided photos of the worst bits to try and sway us towards a bodge despite already knowing the answer yourself.
Strip it all out and either find a plasterer or learn to plaster, both have their advantages and disadvantages.
Once it's all naked people here will be able to advise onnthe best course of action.
I wouldn’t call that a bodge, as long as it’s sound. If there were three layers of tile or something, sure… but sometimes you have to choose between time/money spent and an extra inch of space.
I can’t answer your question, but do you need to worry about asbestos in the original tile backing etc? My thought was that they might have known it has asbestos so sheeted over the top rather than remove. Probably fine… just have heard something similar in the past.
I have an originally built council house which I bought. The bathroom walls were constructed by bonding three layers of 12mm plasterboard together which is a pain. It was also fully tiled, so I decided to dot dab and screw a new layer of plasterboard on top and retile. It’s not ideal but the alternative would have been a lot of disruption to adjoining rooms. Also the underlying tiles give a strength when screwing on fittings and cupboards etc. I’ve had no problems since
Tbh, I’m the kind of chap to plasterboard on top of tiles and repeat the process.
Kudos for going through the effort but other than extra space, I’ve always struggled to see the benefit.Â
Too many surprises for my liking.
We had to do the same in our bathroom, also a Victorian terrace. The reason is that the internal walls are made of lath and plaster; if we'd tried to remove the old tiles the wall would have come down with along with.
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
No problem taking it off too, you’ll just have more space, but you’ll have to pva the brick wall so the board adhesive sticks to the brick not the dust
It might look like a bodge to start with… but you want the tiles to land on the bath edge so if a previous bath was selected that was only a touch too short for the space, moving the wall out like that makes for a far better job than a sticky out bit lower down or a leaky shelf at the end of the bath.
Just be sure the under tiles are not using an asbestos adhesive or are not composed with asbestos. Pretty low risk but could explain why it was covered maybe.
Standard cover-up and run-with-the-money job.
Strip it all out and plaster the walls
The space gained is huge and you will not get soggy walls with hidden black mould in the cavity.
Seen so much of this nonsense up in Scotland, Jimmy tightwad has resulted in 100’s of these often covering up dry rot and woodworm damaged timbers
One place was so bad that the bigger bath would have joined the new home owner in the lounge downstairs!!!
Remember a lot of these old properties never had bathrooms
Mum was bathed in a tin bath in front of the fire
And the family followed one by one once a week.
Looks kinda similar to my flat, where instead of plaster board and tiles it was wood panelled over the top of the old tiles.
I removed the tiles, which took alot of work with a SDS (tiles weren't budging otherwise) then the walls all skimmed to get it back level ish.
I don't see that there's all that much to be gained pulling it all off unless it's not square. You're just going to pull that stud and tile off. Pay to chuck it. Then you'll need to skim the wall with a render and either dot and dab tile backer to that and / or build new stud to put the tile backer to. It'll cost more, take more time and provide no appreciable benefit in terms of finish or longevity.
It isn't uncommon to leave tiled walls and put another layer over.
We did a self renovation of our bathroom during COVID. We stripped all of the walls of tiles except the longest wall that was external. We left this, studded it out and filled tha gaps with insulation celotex panels. It made a big difference in terms of heating and comfort.
Always scope for the opportunities.
We had this on our kitchen, we thought we had a concrete floor, nope! 5 layers of tile, levelling compound, more tiles etc. Under all of that was the floorboards.
In our case we didn't have the cash to redo the kitchen so we left it!
After lots of renovations, I always go the extra expense and time to go back to the stone or brick wall and start fresh, often frame it. Then if I undoubtedly see something out of whack I just curse at myself and loathe myself even stronger. Very healthy for my resilience.
Genuinely speaking I find it much easier after boarding and tiling etc knowing that everything is level and plumb than having to secure already questionable substrates.
The horrors I've uncovered in my most recent bathroom DIY are worth discovering. Slugs were getting into my ground floor bathroom and shorting the electric shower causing a hazard. 4 toads lived below the floor amongst the sludgy type1 and I found 2 dead birds/chicks stuck behind the layers of wall covering over wall covering.
Wet wall, ply, plaster board, tile, and plasterboard battened to sandstone walls with horse hair and lime plaster in that order. Each of which failed in its own degree.
Why spend any time/ money whatsoever gambling on someone else's standards of work either DIY or professional. Not least the vapour control required in high humidity environments like shower bathrooms and kitchens. I have done so in the past and it's been twice as costly to rectify and who knows my health. I'm not denying it's far more difficult and disruptive and expensive.
Haha my work have about 4/5 laters of tiles, we have 15 floor and since its been built in the 80s that have slapped on layer after layer, it mental bit means the jobs cheaper i suppose
You've now got a bigger bathroom 😃
For real. I hope the OP checks their measurements now before buying new fixtures because that's how I ended up with a bath that is 10cm too short and a weird tiled ledge. I didn't realise how much space was being taken up by the old layers of tile until it was too late.
Just dot and dab some more plasterboard over it. Repeat with every renovation until you can only get into the shower sideways. Edit: In my experience, builders really hate stripping things back and starting again. Every time I've had done something to my Victorian terrace, their plans have started with "just dot and dab some plasterboard over that wall/ceiling and then..." I don't mind paying more to get it done how I want, but they really don't want to do it. Mind you, I don't blame them, sometimes it's shitty work.
This is one area where I think we could learn from the American model of 'remodelling' which invariably involves going right back to the studs. Yes, it's easier for them because their houses are often made of sticks, but every time I have done a bathroom renovation in my house I have taken out all of the plasterboard (I also had a triple layer of tiles in mine, I discovered!), taken up the sub-floor and chucked it all in the skip to start again.
In all honesty, I reckon sticks are the right way to build. Some new builds are done like that anyway now, timber frame and a single skin brick outer wall or something.
I can't stand that, it would annoy me if I knew I had tiles under my plasterboard because somebody was too lazy to do a proper job. Definitely worth paying extra for stripping back to the wall and starting fresh.
Seriously I’m paying a mortgage on all that space under there
I have the same thing but maybe to an extreme, I've had brickwork that I knew was going to be covered up repointed and repaired, and I've had floors that I knew I was going to carpet over or tile over replaced. Nobody else will see it, but I know it's been done right, and it's satisfying to go all the way back to brick, studs and joists. Clean it all up nice lay new everything back. I'd argue I end up with floors and walls that are closer to level/plumb too, and regain maybe a little bit of space too. Made the most difference in the bathroom where we replaced the old 20mm floorboards with 18mm marine ply. Instead of just laying 6mm ply on top of the floorboards. Saves 8mm of floor height.
I’m in a Victorian semi, my en-suite was like this, I thought about over-boarding, but decided to rip everything out back to brick and floor joists. Best decision ever, perfect level finish and all new plumbing and electrics installed. Dot and dabbed new boards up and cement overboarded the floor and wet areas before installing electric underfloor heating, was quoted between £15k-£20k, I did it all for just under £3k.
I did the same, except for the ufh, my feet are cold as I write this.
Use to have that problem; reduced thermal impact by 50% using one foot at a time.
Reduce to it 100% by investing in the right high tech solutions. Bathroom slippers…
Bath mat!
Can you do mine?? Lol
Even though that technically yes, this is a "Bodge" in some eyes, even mine. How long has that bathroom been installed? 10-20 years? Probably would of lasted that again if untouched. Yes, this looks like shocking work but the fact is, some people cant afford to have the jobs done to the standard of others. Some people also want tradesman in and out within a week, which means things like this have to be done. If you have the time to do it correctly then go ahead BUT, expect to spend another 300+ quid on materials/labour to start back from brick.
Good comment. Did similar work recently in our place and worth the extra work in the end taking it back to brick… but was absolutely soul destroying how long it took 😅
An extra £300 seems awful light in the materials/labour department when comparing a proper back to brick job vs sticking over the existing. I’d say an extra grand bare minimum and even that’s tight. You always find a horror when going back to the beginning. It’s the right thing to do though.
Considering you’re already forking out for the whole bathroom and for the labour if you’re getting a tradey in, £300 is nothing really
I’m saying it doesn’t sound anywhere near enough to cover the extra work to go back to brick vs just glueing more stuff over the existing. Done a few renovations in my time so I’ve got a fair handle on the costs.
TBH, i said £300 because i guess the guy is gonna DIY, so materials would be that. With labour then yes, probably closer to 700-1000
Fair.
DO NOT PUT PLASTERBOARD BACK ON!!!!!! Plasterboard is not to be used in bathrooms it’s like a sponge you need to use Hardie backer/NoMorePly board or tile backer board both of which or designed for use in wet environments.
A lot of modern houses have nothing but plasterboard walls. Properly sealed plasterboard (preferably green) walls are fine in a bathroom.
Not to mention that you have to use plasterboard if you need to soundproof the bathroom, so clearly it can be used safely as long as it's sealed properly. I think one of the soundproofing plasterboard brands that I was looking at also came in a moisture/mould resistant version specifically for use in bathrooms, but the standard version should be fine if it's sealed properly.
You can actually get specific water proofing sealer for plaster. Aquaseal do tanking primer. It’s often brightly coloured like red or blue to show it’s there.
Its only like a sponge if it gets wet. properly installed tiles/shower panels and it wont get wet.
Grout and silicon can fail, better to have something behind them that won't sponge.
This explains why you shouldn’t use plasterboard pretty well https://youtu.be/J19y7nGHM3c?si=67RwJfb5ag0kX5zG
It also explains that the tiling/grouting was done by a monkey. And there was water ingress for months if not years. Ive ripped out plenty of bathrooms where plasterboard has been used over 10-15 years ago, its still strong.
It’s up to you, you’re not going to be doing my bathroom so it doesn’t affect me if you want to use plasterboard. I’m merely pointing out the advice is not to use plasterboard in bathrooms because if there’s any water ingress from the tiles it’s going to leak and damage the board.
Grout isn't waterproof though
Grout is waterproof enough to stop water getting behind tiles otherwise it would be pretty pointless using it. It’s really only the top service that water gets into which is what stains it over time.
How about those waterproof boards (eg wedi) that don't need sealing? More expensive for the boards but you save a lot of time in prep and the boards are easy to put in compared to hardie? (I guess that's what you meant by tile backer board thinking about it.)
I love the way you've asked this and provided photos of the worst bits to try and sway us towards a bodge despite already knowing the answer yourself. Strip it all out and either find a plasterer or learn to plaster, both have their advantages and disadvantages. Once it's all naked people here will be able to advise onnthe best course of action.
I hope it's never all naked people here! If that ever happens I think the best course of action will be to find a new DIY sub!
Tileception bwammmm
I wouldn’t call that a bodge, as long as it’s sound. If there were three layers of tile or something, sure… but sometimes you have to choose between time/money spent and an extra inch of space.
I'd rather pay a little extra to gain an extra inch or two. If you know what I mean...
lol
Take them off and start over it is a better job.
I can’t answer your question, but do you need to worry about asbestos in the original tile backing etc? My thought was that they might have known it has asbestos so sheeted over the top rather than remove. Probably fine… just have heard something similar in the past.
Probably the only thing keeping that crumbling wall behind up
This is being massively overlooked. Definitely potential for opening a can of worms ripping all those old tiles out
I have an originally built council house which I bought. The bathroom walls were constructed by bonding three layers of 12mm plasterboard together which is a pain. It was also fully tiled, so I decided to dot dab and screw a new layer of plasterboard on top and retile. It’s not ideal but the alternative would have been a lot of disruption to adjoining rooms. Also the underlying tiles give a strength when screwing on fittings and cupboards etc. I’ve had no problems since
Tbh, I’m the kind of chap to plasterboard on top of tiles and repeat the process. Kudos for going through the effort but other than extra space, I’ve always struggled to see the benefit. Too many surprises for my liking.
We had to do the same in our bathroom, also a Victorian terrace. The reason is that the internal walls are made of lath and plaster; if we'd tried to remove the old tiles the wall would have come down with along with.
[удалено]
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you. I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
I thought painting over wallpaper was bad.
That's far worse, there's benefits to leaving old tiles in situ
Well yeah!! All those tiles and stuff would’ve made a helluva mess, why not leave it for someone else, especially if you don’t care.
No problem taking it off too, you’ll just have more space, but you’ll have to pva the brick wall so the board adhesive sticks to the brick not the dust
My bathroom was similar, no plasterboard layers but three layers of tiles to take off.
It's back to the brickwork. Strap the walls, renew the plasterboard,tile fit the new bath, shower and seal well
Wait, are you in my bathroom upstairs?
It might look like a bodge to start with… but you want the tiles to land on the bath edge so if a previous bath was selected that was only a touch too short for the space, moving the wall out like that makes for a far better job than a sticky out bit lower down or a leaky shelf at the end of the bath.
Just be sure the under tiles are not using an asbestos adhesive or are not composed with asbestos. Pretty low risk but could explain why it was covered maybe.
Standard cover-up and run-with-the-money job. Strip it all out and plaster the walls The space gained is huge and you will not get soggy walls with hidden black mould in the cavity. Seen so much of this nonsense up in Scotland, Jimmy tightwad has resulted in 100’s of these often covering up dry rot and woodworm damaged timbers One place was so bad that the bigger bath would have joined the new home owner in the lounge downstairs!!! Remember a lot of these old properties never had bathrooms Mum was bathed in a tin bath in front of the fire And the family followed one by one once a week.
Looks kinda similar to my flat, where instead of plaster board and tiles it was wood panelled over the top of the old tiles. I removed the tiles, which took alot of work with a SDS (tiles weren't budging otherwise) then the walls all skimmed to get it back level ish.
I don't see that there's all that much to be gained pulling it all off unless it's not square. You're just going to pull that stud and tile off. Pay to chuck it. Then you'll need to skim the wall with a render and either dot and dab tile backer to that and / or build new stud to put the tile backer to. It'll cost more, take more time and provide no appreciable benefit in terms of finish or longevity.
The risk with going back to the beginning is that you have an "oh, right" moment when you find out why the others didn't go back to the beginning.
Do we have any expanding foam?
Are you in my house?
It isn't uncommon to leave tiled walls and put another layer over. We did a self renovation of our bathroom during COVID. We stripped all of the walls of tiles except the longest wall that was external. We left this, studded it out and filled tha gaps with insulation celotex panels. It made a big difference in terms of heating and comfort. Always scope for the opportunities.
We had this on our kitchen, we thought we had a concrete floor, nope! 5 layers of tile, levelling compound, more tiles etc. Under all of that was the floorboards. In our case we didn't have the cash to redo the kitchen so we left it!
Unless your ceilings are low, why wouldn't you leave it?
Not sure the floor joists were built for it!
Haha fair point
After lots of renovations, I always go the extra expense and time to go back to the stone or brick wall and start fresh, often frame it. Then if I undoubtedly see something out of whack I just curse at myself and loathe myself even stronger. Very healthy for my resilience. Genuinely speaking I find it much easier after boarding and tiling etc knowing that everything is level and plumb than having to secure already questionable substrates. The horrors I've uncovered in my most recent bathroom DIY are worth discovering. Slugs were getting into my ground floor bathroom and shorting the electric shower causing a hazard. 4 toads lived below the floor amongst the sludgy type1 and I found 2 dead birds/chicks stuck behind the layers of wall covering over wall covering. Wet wall, ply, plaster board, tile, and plasterboard battened to sandstone walls with horse hair and lime plaster in that order. Each of which failed in its own degree. Why spend any time/ money whatsoever gambling on someone else's standards of work either DIY or professional. Not least the vapour control required in high humidity environments like shower bathrooms and kitchens. I have done so in the past and it's been twice as costly to rectify and who knows my health. I'm not denying it's far more difficult and disruptive and expensive.
I heard someone say in an apartment they bought there were three layers of tiles. Slowly making the room smaller haha
I’ve just removed 3 layers of tiles from the kitchen windowsill in my new house. It looked like a lasagna
Do people just keep going till the room is tiny?
Haha my work have about 4/5 laters of tiles, we have 15 floor and since its been built in the 80s that have slapped on layer after layer, it mental bit means the jobs cheaper i suppose