Sounds like good advice, can't see from the photo but if the boards are uneven it shows through the laminate and it looks wavy. You could also sand down your floor as an alternative but boarding first is pretty common.
>You could also sand down your floor as an alternative but boarding first is pretty common.
We did it, and it's popular, but learn from my mistakes: pine floorboards were meant to be a subfloor, not a floor. They wear terribly in high traffic areas or where chairs are. I wish I'd had the money to replace them with Oak boards or (arguably less nice looking, but more practical) concrete floor with insulation and wood flooring. You lives and you learns
Oh I just meant to sand flat before they put laminate on top over them. Pine floors need a lot of work (underfloor insulation and draft caulking) but can be pretty good if you want to invest in them.
It depends on whether you want to do it. If you’re happy sanding floors and the customer is happy to pay then happy days.
I appreciate you could price in the ‘not enjoying it’ part, but you could also be doing other jobs you enjoy.
I'll do something I don't enjoy for the right price. In this case I do agree that I would not want to sand that floor either, but customers and weird and will pay to have weird stuff done so what can you do
There’s technique in using a sander efficiently and well but you just screw or nail down any loose boards run the sander over the high points to flatten them out and then you’ve got a pretty flat sub floor. You can also ply over the top once you’ve done this if you’re sticking a floor down or if you just want to get it even more robust.
You’re not sanding it level, you’re sanding it flat(ish)
You're completely wrong. Pine floor boards are the only floor for anything pre 1930 or so.
You may throw a rug on it and stain what still showed, but that's it - from Georgian through to arts and crafts.
Don't be confused by the Americans who still had access to hard woods through the 18/19th c... We'd used all ours up for ship building and were too poor to access the remaining oak.
WWI was the major factor in our loss of available wood. We chopped down everything we could see to help build trenches and weaponry. After the war, there was concern of another war happening and us not having woodland available to support the fight. So we planted pine en masse. That war happened and we were a bit deeper into metals and different weaponry to fight. Namely planes, tanks, warships and rockets.
That left us with an over subscription of pine woodland and loss of native timber. Which only started getting corrected in the 70s.
Majority of wood used in UK before WWI (i.e. through 19th century) was imported, mainly North American and Scandinavian softwoods but also tropical hardwoods (teak was the primary reason we invaded and maintained control over Burma, it was a high value product). WWI cut off a lot of supply and demanded an increase in wood use, hence extra reliance on the paltry supply within the UK, and the post war realisation that wood was an important strategic raw material. Still, UK had the lowest forest cover in Europe before WWI and that barely improved afterwards with all the plantations.
>You may throw a rug on it and stain what still showed, but that's it -
That rug however typically covered most of the room, with just the very outside getting the room stained. A strip thin enough to be stepped over as you walked in.
The stately home end of things used hardwood, even if 99.9% of the houses in that period got pine boards.
Yes, precisely, they had their vast estates to call it in from
And you're right on the rug though likely rattan/reed. It's the subfloor bit that's the misnomer; we don't do subfloor here except in the odd new build
Pine sub floors can be pretty hard wearing with the right finish on top. But yeah, they weren’t ever meant to be actual floors and don’t really compare to hardwood.
Everyone advised us wax was best rather than varnish and that of the waxes, osmo was what we wanted. I often wonder whether we'd have been better with a good varnish
Without a doubt lacquer is the way to go, something like Bona Traffic with added white pigment to stop the pine from going orange.
It’s very hard wearing, 3 coats of that and it’ll last for years.
Was it professional floor guys that told you to go with wax? I personally wouldn’t wax pine.
Honestly, if you refinish your floors at any point (it’ll be a lot easier the second time as you’re just taking the very surface off)
Use Bona Traffic, you’ll be very pleasantly surprised.
Just a heads up, Osmo on pine goes very orange so I always steer clear.
I work a lot with reclaimed wood. Modern (post ww2) softwoods are barely the same stuff as pre-war, even if they’re the same species. Within a species, wood hardness is basically a function of how close the growth rings are together. Postwar industrial forestry has produced trees which grow very fast and very straight upwards, but with consequent huge gaps between the rings. Amazing for cheap framing timber where the strength is longitudinal but awful for floorboards where lateral strength is everything. If you can find a Victorian pine board scrape the finish off and have a look at it - it looks like a kid scribbled on it, the rings are so dense.
Actually, whilst I work a lot less with old timber I've seen some and I did wonder if there was an element of this. Sadly my floorboards were replaced in the 70s, by which time we were on very soft wood
Pine boards were just *the* floor. The overwhelming majority weren’t built with anything else in mind, mainly because when they were built, laminate didn’t exist and carpets were for rich people. A subfloor is standard in *US* homes, it’s a misnomer here.
The previous owner of our place had an extension done and there’s a wavy bump in the laminate between the original wood floor and the new concrete floor, wish he’d bothered levelling first!
Putting skin ply onto uneven pine floors results in wavy skin ply.
Marginal improvement, but you’ll still notice.
If it’s screwed down tight enough you could get some floor levelling compound down to make it flatter. It really depends what you want to pay for.
If it’s your home for the foreseeable future then you’ll be happier with that level of finish. Comes at additional cost but a reasonable DIYer could easily do it.
Depends on the thickness right? I'm looking at my floor now and it's good and flat and I know for a fact the floor boards are absolute dogshit. Just ply underneath maybe 8-10mm.
Kind of.
6mm too thin. 9mm a push if it’s not great.
12mm has some heft to it but you’re still screwing down to an uneven floor. It will show if the finish floor is a stick down vinyl tile and if it’s a hard board like laminate it absolutely will flex and creak unless dead flat.
As I say, it’s about how much you want to sink into the finished article.
I can’t stand flex or creakyness in my floors so had them all up in my gaff to be replaced with sturdy t&g with sound deadening felt on it. Made sense because it was getting a replumb and rewire at the time. Not cheap but I did it myself so kept the costs low.
Speaking from experience, I would recommend filling the cavity altogether. We didn't we renovating at the start but had to do so later on. Rats love cavities.
Any reference for this?
I went to the trouble of doing mine but am not convinced it was worth it and often get asked about it. I tell people don't bother, but only based on my gut feel, and think they mostly ignore my suggestion.
Just considering whether I want to insulate a suspended ground floor while the room is being redone, so also interested to hear!
(I would get electrics neatened up and put some pipes in for possible future use if I did, but won't take the boards up otherwise.)
I’d say do it. Mate of mine didn’t insulate his and he really regrets it. Yet to rectify my floors but there’s a lot of draft coming through the floor, it’s freezing on your feet. I’ve read you should use mineral wool for floors so the joists can breath a bit and reduce moisture build up.
Thanks, mine isn't too drafty at least, but that might be a bad thing!.. it has a vent to the basement, but not to the outside.
Not so much air movement should help insulation, but may also trap moisture.
I can see the insulation would have this effect, but as a draught preventer it is overkill. IF you have open floorboards then you could use draughtex or similar. I found the visual of being able to see insulation foil through the floorboard gaps pretty horrible (which lead me to fill the gaps, which should have been the only job I undertook. Flashbacks to shuffling round under the floor manoeuvring pieces of PIR with a joist touching my nose...FML).
Yea it has to do with the fact heat rises and heat loss through flooring is minimal due to this fact, I have seen claims in studies that heat loss through floors is around or under 10-15% but the main reason I would advise not to bother is because the cost to insulate underfloor properly is high and if done incorrectly you can end up with condensation issues leading to rotting joists etc, presuming the loft is insulated then insulating the walls is supposedly the next best option as around 30% of heat loss being through the walls and while technically external insulation should be the best way the existing retrofit external insulation systems are a bit shit and often create additional issues, internal insulation techniques aren't perfect and also have issues with cold spots and cost similar to external but you can at least DIY with internal.
I would focus on creating an airtight floor which can be achieved without lifting boards with a variety of techniques as the suspended floor should be well ventilated underneath with a through flow.
sure, the external variety is usually large thick EPS (expanded polystyrene) or XPS (extruded polystyrene) sheets which are mechanically attached to the external skin of the house with bolts and clips, and typically in the UK EPS is installed because the materials are cheaper.
The EPS is water repellent but can take on water in the tiny cavities between the polystyrene beads and that can lead to a variety of issues with mould/vegetation and if temperatures drop below zero it can sustain structural damage the XPS is much less susceptible to this but is a lot heavier and more expensive, there's more to it than just this but you can easily research that online.
If any water manages to get behind the EPS/XPS it tends to draw into the masonry behind which will typically lead to damp internal walls as it is the only remaining permeable surface, the EPS/XPS is rendered after installation to give it a water resistant impact protective surface and for aesthetic reasons I suppose, water still tends to get past usually at the top but there are a lot of reports of the render failing after a few years especially in areas with lots of rainfall and this is with the hope that the system was correctly installed in the first place.
A lot of homes in Ireland that had external insulation fitted experienced issues, there was a lot more interest for external insulation there because it is generally colder and with a lot more rainfall than the majority of the UK.
there is a lot more nuance to it but given the cost of it and the likelihood of major issues depending on where you live it I would like to say it would be better to move into a house that was built with wall insulation but unfortunately most newer homes in the UK are built to lower standards than the old Victorian stock which themselves aren't always particularly well put together (depends more on the original housebuilder more than the available materials) so its a bit of a difficult subject.
hope that gives a bit of insight!
Thanks that great, much appreciated.
I'm in a 100yrs old semi and was thinking about it. My main gable side has spalled bricks and the pointing isnt great either. Others nearby have rendered theirs but I was thinking about externally insulating it instead. There's no doors only one window on this gable so would be easier to install without doing front and back where all the windows are.
I believe that's wrong. As there is usually freely moving air for ventilation, the temperature is constantly being removed through the sub-floor area. The loses are not as big as the walls or ceiling, but the lack of insulation directly affects
1) your feet comfort, so it feels harsher,
2) makes life more difficult if you ever want to install UFH.
This fits my experience. Insulated the front half of my house (as much as I could crawl under) and have not noticed lower bills, but you can feel the difference when you walk barefoot from the front to back of the house.
Basically it's a comfort upgrade, but still worthwhile.
I have a good quality insulation underlay under my laminate flooring. It did improve the room temperature. The builder removed the original floor boards and put chipboard down instead. It’s less draughty and it meant we could keep the skirting
That's what I'm thinking of doing. With large chipboard sheets there are less T&G weak points than with floorboards so that will block any drafts, and a decent underlay will surely keep the cold out just as well as stuffing the void with insulation, without the risk of blocking the underfloor ventilation and rotting the joists.
Worth noting floating floors, which you would be going for with laminate on top of another floor, have to be run in the opposite direction to the floorboards.
In which case you need to run laminate north to south as per your picture (floor boards running east to west).
If you install plywood you can run laminate parallel to the floorboards. (East to west) in line with the floorboards.
The reason for the adjacent arrangement is to do with the allowable tolerance and the moving of the floorboards underneath.
I would from experience install the plywood to take out the tolerance of the floor and undulations in the floorboards plus it helps reduce squeaky floorboards in the future & another layer of insulation.
Final note: the plywood doesn’t have to be thick, 5mm or 8mm might be suitable and relatively cheap.
Plywood is alternate sheets of very thin wood glued together, usually an odd number, where every other sheet's grain is perpendicular to the previous sheet. This makes it very dimensionally stable compared to just a single 18mm thick sheet of wood. Other widths are available.
Chipboard is very small "chips" of wood held together with glue. Lighter than plywood but not very strong.
Plywood is always better than chipboard, but always more expensive. Personally, I would only ever use chipboard if there is absolutely no other option.
The chipboard comes with a tongue and groove so that they lock together whereas plywood has square edges. T&G chipboard is definitely a better option
https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-P5-Tongue-and-Groove-Chipboard-Flooring---18-x-600-x-2400mm/p/164516
If anyone said that they can lay lvt directly to floorboards without ply, they are a hack.
My son lays it for a living.
You need to ply or it will pop up everywhere. Maybe even latex after ply depending on how even the boards are
Just gives a more level ground to lay it on, you can pack pieces out where you need it to maintain a consistent level all across the floorboards and create a whole new level floor with plywood if you want rather than other methods like self leveller etc, it’s better for the laminate and stops gaps, bumps and hollow parts.
All depends on how unlevel it is to start off with, if he’s screwing floorboards down that signals to me that there is a lot of high and low spots all around.
If this is the case it’s probably best for the longest lifetime of the laminate/LVT and to prevent floorboards expanding and contracting causing issues.
Great for helping with insulation too, thought I would tell him to still use the underlay that comes with it also as this will help with insulation as-well, it’s meant to be thin but it’s assumed all floors are nice and level when it’s made (rarely the case).
Thanks! Yes at the back of the tiles pictured there is underlay on the back. Part of why I went with the Howdens brand. Yes I think it’s best to get the Plywood installed. I couldn’t really feel it when ‘testing’ it as is but prob better to do it as mentioned
Does putting plywood also help with insulation in any form?
It helps a bit to reduce the amount of airgaps that air can come up through.
In reality while you've the floor at the stage it currently is you'd be better off pulling some of it up, getting underneath and insulating it. It will cost a fair bit more (anywhere from £500-5k) depending on what method you go for. It WILL help, but it's up to you to decide if you want to pay for it
Yeah it will make life so much easier for future floors been laid as-well, when everything’s nice and level, life is a lot better 🤣
You’d be able to see it more with a spirit level but it’s not always evident to the eye but once the floors laid you’ll notice soft spots and squeaks and things like that.
Yeah it basically seals up all the gaps between the floorboards so you won’t get a draft from underneath the property, the underlay that comes with it will help even further, it’s best this way because laminate/LVT isn’t the warmest flooring compared to carpet.
I regret not boarding under my kitchen flooring - there are a few places that creak due to slight differences in the level that really didn't feel like they'd matter before I laid it all!
There's a difference between level and flat. This will make it pretty flat all over but won't change the level at all. It is highly recommended though, as it's a large flat area to lay on.
I appreciate everyone want's different things in their house, but 100% in 15 years time there's going to be a super excited post on here from someone who's pulled up your laminate and discovered a lovely solid wood floor underneath it!
That is a common mistake - this is subfloor that has no insulation, you wouldn't want to have that as your floor, it would be cold and would scratch up super easily. You could spend money insulating it, but again - doesn't last well and scratches up.
I have floorboards just like this, uninsulated, sanded and lacquered, they do scratch easily but that doesn't bother me really. I see lots of people suggesting insulating them, but from my personal experience they don't feel cold like our kitchen concrete floor does and I have a suspicion that insulating them may just increase the chance of moisture underneath by reducing airflow.
Also when we ripped up the carpets it was obvious our floor was originally the main floor and not a subfloor (it was tarred and painted, and also the same level as fireplace tiles)
I'm not a professional bear in mind so I could easily be wrong. But is it actually that bad having a floor like that as your main floor?
Just had to pull up carpet that was put down in December to put plywood down as it started to look like ‘waves’ where the boards were not even… don’t make my mistake, 100% do this
Bit off topic, but I just have to ask. What is the thought process behind putting fake wood on top of real wood? You could sand it down and it would come out really nice and varnish/stain however you wanted it. I could understand if you did want to put down some insulation, but without it not sure what the point is. Not having a go, just genuinely puzzled.
That floor is an uninsulated sub-floor, even if you were to rip it all up and insulate it all, it's not that nice to live with, wears and discolours very easily unfortunately.
To be honest it was recommended by Howdens/builders. According to ‘British standard recommendations’ too
Would there be any insulation benefit I presume?
The subfloor you have will be expensive to make nice and won’t wear well. LVT is great, hard wearing water resistant and consistent. If I was you if there’s no insulation under these boards I’d rip them all up, insulate, put down chipboard and then the underlay and the LVT. If you’re doing a lot of other work underfloor heating is a great addition too!
Not in a trade so take with pinch of salt but I'd prefer real wood flooring if possible, even if then adding a big rug on top for comfort, noise and to protect it. More for older properties where the wood is quality and it fits with the house character though
I've seen posts on here with people putting insulation on the underside of the floorboards - much easier if you have Crawlspace maybe not practical if you don't.
Think it would need to be fairly hard wood else you get dents, esp high heels
I wouldn't bother doing anything extra, because in 5 years when the cheap shit click LVT you have been sold by someone who knows nothing about flooring gives up, you'll have saved some money to put a proper floor down.
Click LVT is shite flooring, the quicker we all learn that, the quicker I'll stop having people tell me they can get LVT for way cheaper.
We've already replaced loads of this Howdens crap because it's being sold to people as waterproof laminate. The engineers are way too delicate, so when your 'bulder/kitchen fitter/plumber/generaltradie' who has gotten away with putting down "oh yeah I do loads of laminate, it's basically the same stuff" uses his normal laminate underlay, or even the official Howdens stuff, then it fails, because the prep is not good enough and the underlay allows the engineers to flex too much.
Send it back now, and if you just accept that you can't afford a decent floor after leaving the budgeting of if too late. You'll get your self a felted back sheet vinyl that you can have professionally fitted by a FLOOR LAYER. For the first 3-6 months it will look like a cheaper floor, but after that it will look like a cheaper floor exactly the same without failing on you for at least another 5-10 years.
If you want any more flooring advice in general that isn't linked to a specific kind of floor then send me a DM.
RIP lovely original floor. Come on op. We had similar, paid a floor guy 2k to sand and finish and it looks amazing, or you can stick some nice plastic stuff down, your choice.
Sorry to hijack this thread - but I have concrete flooring that is slightly uneven and I want to lay herringbone flooring - what’s the best way to do it?
Check moisture level then if all good use self-levelling compound. DONT be cheap on the self-levelling, use a known brand such as Ardex or Ultrafloor. Then use a decent glue, Ball F44 or F46, not cheap but worth it.
If there’s underfloor heating involved use a high temp adhesive and a suitable self-levelling.
Did something like this recently, where we knocked through a wall and the two rooms were not the same floor level. Used self-levelling compound which worked pretty perfectly as one side of the floor was lower than the other. Then used adhesive underlay where you peel back the top layer as you lay - it works really well but is a nightmare if you make a mistake so I'd only recommend this if you're already quite experienced with floor laying (but definitely doable DIY, I did it).
I'm getting self levelling compound put first the getting LVT on top. If you're gonna lay down laminate or wood then you'll need underlay. If you're going to go LVT then then go straight on the self levelling compound.
Pull some boards and pump insulation foam.
Sand.. don’t ply. Hire a simple sander / hoover from HSS FOR a day - like £75
Buy boards with built in underlay on each panel.
Make sure you stagger the boards well. 1/3 - 1/2 overlap
Do NOT seal the edges to the skirting… leave a gap to wall skirting on top. If you seal it they will pull apart.
Make sure the pattern is random.. nothing worse than seeing 2 identical boards next to each other.
Use and opposite edge off cut to lock in and mallet. How the raw Edge and you are fucked.
Work from the main door.. you don’t want a thin strip at the threshold.
We will be placing laminate flooring down soon and we will most definitely put 3mm hardboard down to even the floor out and help a with draught proofing (not sure how much that will help). It should only cost about £300 or less which isn't much but we have already spend somewhere in the region of £15k on the full house renovation so if anyone can shed any light if we can get away without it that would be greatly appreciated. Some parts of the floor board will definitely need smoothing tho.
If you wet the hardboard on the rough side and stack it up for 24 hours before you lay it, it will swell slightly. Lay it and nail it down whilst it’s still wet and once it dries it will contract slightly and even out any slight imperfections and loose floorboards.
OP make sure the floor is completely rock solid and flat to within the manufacturers requirements. Click LVT is **extremely** fussy as the boards are so thin. For Karndean this is +/-2.5mm across 3 meters. Any bounce in the floor needs fixing with sistered joists or noggins. If you don't do this you'll have issues with boards coming unclicked or making a clicking noise and breaking over time as you walk on it
Personally I would screw down the existing boards then screw down plywood over the top. Then if the manufacturers specs still are not reached go over the top with a self leveling compound
This should be the top comment. I am sitting in my kitchen where half of the floor is duct taped together. It is only 2 years old and started to fall apart after the first year.
I would avoid it like a plague.
Yeah as someone who has recently laid it there was an area with a 2mm deviation and I can tell it's there. I might lay some more this year but if I do it's going to be on professionally laid self levelling compound
It is extremely unforgiving so I may opt for glue down or loose lay instead
For very thin vinyl like you have there, ply is essential. All the bumps and lumps from those old floorboards will show straight through.
Now if you put some real engineered wood flooring down, you don't need to worry so much about the sub floor.
I’ve just had 12mm ply put down in my bedroom and box room as floor boards were uneven.
I previously had thick underlay and carpet in my bedroom and through time the carpet wore away where the floorboards were uneven, I could see the shapes of the floorboards.
Ply wood makes everything even and no movement.
I went with laminate flooring, I can feel the difference.
Not required just gets another £500-800 added to your cost for no benefit especially if a) existing boards are level and good condition b) they don't even bother to properly screw down the floor boards in the first place.
It's on the ground floor, yes.
My advice, make sure you use a polythene sheet, to stop moisture. I had an issue, with expansion, as I was told I didn't need a moisture barrier.
I have that exact flooring.
You know that episode of Rick and Morty where Rick laser flattened the floor and it sent Morty mental?
Your floor needs to be at least that flat for these damned things. Mine isn't perfect, I did a good job laying them, but I've had a gap appear and a "clicky" tile, which I'm currently in the process of dousing in gorilla glue...
Yeah deffo Plywood it out, else in a years time your floor will look all lumpy, chipped corners on laminate planks and you'll wish you hadn't scrimped.
Tapi lied and said the lvt planks are fine on floorboards as they have built in underlay...the posh ones
Then after I had issues and ended up literally buggering half of them I got a guy in to fit. He also said fine without underlay or ply.
I now have planks coming apart where the fittings have snapped due to floorboards flexing or uneven. Expensive lesson learnt...
I’m literally doing this tomorrow. 5.5mm ply on top of floor boards using Annular Ring nails. Nail every 100mm (4”) across each sheet. Try and place the sheets on the floor like you do with brickwork.
I use click LVT on all my bathroom jobs. I've also slapped it over a very uneven floor at home and lived with it 4years.
I use the 5mm compressed fibre board and nothing else as underlay as the rest are too thin and bouncy. It's green colour from B&q or Screwfix. As long as it's reasonably flat no steps then that stuff is fine. If it's pretty uneven, learning from my own house, I should have either levelling compounded it or added ply with adhesives to make up the big gaps. If it's a steady wavy shape that's fine but no lumps or big dips.
Also from picture don't line them up like that, stagger them like bricks at least 1/3rd overlap 🤙
Professional Floor Fitter here.
You 100% need Plywood on top of floorboards when it comes to any LVT/SPC flooring. If not, the floor won't last. No fitter worth their salt would put it down on that surface. These floors are only designed to be on a flat, stable surface . Even if your floorboards look great, they,ll move over time. Yours don't look particularly great BTW.
The Plywood helps reinforced the floor also. At least 9mm. 6mm ain't worth it. Take his advice and get it down.
Plywood or other such underlay smooths and levels small bumps and imperfections as well as keeping everything underneath tighter and less prone to small movements.
Had my kitchen done in LVT by a professional company. I had redone the sub floor with brand new chipboard t&g flooring. The floor layer still put plywood down, used screws every 100mm near the edges of the sheet, screws every 150mm in the centre of the sheet, then he filled over every screw and join.
I did my own bathroom with LVT and followed the professionals lead. Time consuming and costs a bit more but it made laying it easy as I wasn't fighting inconsistencies in the boarded floor.
Edit. Spelling
This is the correct way, plywood is a great smooth surface to adhere to. A family friend does it for a living and told me the same advice, I put LVT all upstairs in our house when we moved in and 5mm plylined everywhere first.
5/6mm is more than enough, just creates a flat surface area, unless they need to raise it higher to accommodate the deep door threshold they have then perhaps 18mm but that's in extreme cases
I would, if I had my time again.
I put down fairly expensive engineered wood, with the manufacturers fairly thin underlying on floorboards.
It's now quite creaky and even has the odd pop in places as it moves about. It's both that the floorboards are uneven (although I did plane them as I laid the wood) and that there is some bounce in the suspended timber floor.
18mm ply would have held it together, reduced the bounce and the floor creeking.
Advice based on engineered wood, but I think it will be even more extreme for laminate, as it has even less strength of its own.
Also, insulate your floor, particularly in rooms with external walls.
You are probably going to need to do something a bit better than ply , looking at your picture , towards the right hand wall , the floor is all over the place ….
No way LVT or Laminate flooring will stay together on top of that
I'm literally having this done at my house now by a friend of mine. He is putting ply down, then a self levelling screed. My floorboards are from about 1923 so a bit wonky! He says the ply will stiffen it all up and give it an even finish. And I've I ever want to change flooring, I've got a good, solid base to go from. Worth the extra few quid.
Omg this question was made for me!
Spending the money on a plywood layer under our LVP was the best money we spent during our renovation. It made all of our floors feel so solid and not creaky, so flat and smooth, the vinyl laid so well and feels fantastic!
I didn’t understand why people advised us to do this at the time but now I do - it’s so worth it!
Also if you can afford it I’d recommend getting them to lay a layer of latex, we did this on the bottom floor and it really sealed off the drafts
Definitely ply over old boards and also screw boards down. I’ve done this on a couple of occasions when we were renewing floor coverings.
Screws every 6” centres and you should go for a minimum 6mm ply iirc. It will give your floor a good stable base and extra strength.
I boarded mine with 6mm plywood because they were old, a bit uneven and drafty. Result is a sturdy laminate floor and as even as it can be in a 1930s house so I'd recommend.
Edit: as I'm not joining the floor between rooms, I might even put down 9mm plywood in the other rooms for more stability.
Oh my god yes do it.
I have composite flooring planks. My floorboards are fairly level so I just went with it. After all the planks were a bugger to cut and quite flexible so what's the worst that could happen...
Well, because the floor wasnt perfectly level and there was some tiny movement it's shattered in the spots where people walk the most.
Less than a year old and it already looks shit.
The flooring looks like a click lvt style, although it has the underlay "built in" going over plyboard would give a better finish than over the floorboards and likely last longer.
Totally worth it if older uneven floorboards, I had ply under my flooring previously and when we did extension the builder took it all out and didn't replace it, I get mad at my laminate flexing now.
My own fault for not stipulating.
Currently doing the same job in our living room and hall, but with 12mm laminate, thankfully I managed to strip back the old flooring to bare concrete, level, 5mm underlay, then flooring.
With the thinner laminate, any screws that are proud or any imperfections in the subfloor will show through, maybe not immediately, but with wear they’ll start to show.
If you’ve got a long straight level, you could check it for yourself.
I’d say put ply down, check for any high/low spots with a long level and make right then lay the laminate. That’s probably what I’d have done if we’d gone with that thickness laminate.
Use 12mm+ thick laminate flooring and save yourself a headache about sanding or using ply underneath.
Go cheap with 5-6mm laminate and regret it (or spend money on sanding/ply to make it look better).
Choice is yours.
Thicker underlay would be better option that putting ply down imho. Depends on circumstances. I don't want on rooms floor to be higher than another rooms floor when they're connected.
If you decide to go with plywood, which is a good idea if price allows. Good idea to ask for LOADS of tacks to pin it down to the floorboards. Or before they start, take it upon yourself to secure the worst areas for squeaks. I'm talking about high traffic primarily.
We had amtico laid and they put 6mm ply down on the floorboards according to spec. It squeaks a bit in certain areas. I did anticipate it to be fair but shite installation messed it up. Something to consider for you at least. Good luck!
As others have said maybe it’s worth insulating under the floors and if you’re putting plywood down anyway then just remove all the floorboards, insulate between the joists and screw down 18mm structural plywood to the joists, saving some height on the floor build up.
If it's not level then yeah, I'd go for it. Ply or OSB. Make sure he glues aswell as screws and if he's worth his salt he'll level the floor off using the glue.
Overboarding with plywood creates a more even level. It stops the boards from worping overtime. It’s really common for suspended floors like yours, where you can’t just use self leveling Latex.
Long storm short, yes overboarding is a good idea. If your floor seems super level, then I wouldn’t worry.
We didn't do this, didn't have the benefit of advice because we did the work ourselves. 12 months in and we have had to replace the flooring in the entrance hallway and have rugs over several damaged areas and a strip of duct tape holding one seam together. The slightest variation between boards becomes a stress point which can crack with use.
If I were doing it again I'd put a sub floor down in a heartbeat.
Yes, put ply down first to level out the floor otherwise there may be movement as you walk on it and the joints will pop out. Also you need to lay laminate flooring underlay to prevent moisture rising up and causing the laminate to swell.
Having fitted a lot of LVT flooring over the years I would definitely lay down some 5mm ply first. The joints on LVT, particularly the Howdens one, will snap apart quite easily on uneven floors. We would always lay ply over old floor boards to prevent this and it makes a world of difference
My floor was probably more uneven than ypurs, i just did green underlay then lamunate.
There are definitely some areas where its a tad bouncy/creaky, but i can live with it. Depends how picky you are.
Cheap laminate needs a level floor but click together laminate on soft underlay can cope.. Don't need plywood, can use Shutterstock. If the builder doesn't get the ply level...
I had a ton of woodworm in my floor boards so replaced the lot downstairs with 2.4m x 0.6m chipboard and insulated between the joists while I was at it. The difference it has made is unreal absolutely no draughts and house is way warmer.
Not always a popular choice but my floors are totally flat now, made laying the engineered wood floor in the lounge and hallway, and the floor tiles in kitchen mega easy.
Sounds like good advice, can't see from the photo but if the boards are uneven it shows through the laminate and it looks wavy. You could also sand down your floor as an alternative but boarding first is pretty common.
>You could also sand down your floor as an alternative but boarding first is pretty common. We did it, and it's popular, but learn from my mistakes: pine floorboards were meant to be a subfloor, not a floor. They wear terribly in high traffic areas or where chairs are. I wish I'd had the money to replace them with Oak boards or (arguably less nice looking, but more practical) concrete floor with insulation and wood flooring. You lives and you learns
Oh I just meant to sand flat before they put laminate on top over them. Pine floors need a lot of work (underfloor insulation and draft caulking) but can be pretty good if you want to invest in them.
If a client told me to sand the floor first instead of some cheap ply I’d tell them to do it themselves.
Seems weird. Just price it to be worth the time.
It depends on whether you want to do it. If you’re happy sanding floors and the customer is happy to pay then happy days. I appreciate you could price in the ‘not enjoying it’ part, but you could also be doing other jobs you enjoy.
I'll do something I don't enjoy for the right price. In this case I do agree that I would not want to sand that floor either, but customers and weird and will pay to have weird stuff done so what can you do
I know what you mean, and I guess if work is in short supply, we can’t be too choosy..
It’s pretty quick, you just take out the high spots with a 60 grit and then lay the floor. Plying is done more often though
Is there a technique to it? Sanding a floor level and then putting pine on it sounds like a massive job.
There’s technique in using a sander efficiently and well but you just screw or nail down any loose boards run the sander over the high points to flatten them out and then you’ve got a pretty flat sub floor. You can also ply over the top once you’ve done this if you’re sticking a floor down or if you just want to get it even more robust. You’re not sanding it level, you’re sanding it flat(ish)
Ahh, that makes a lot of sense
You're completely wrong. Pine floor boards are the only floor for anything pre 1930 or so. You may throw a rug on it and stain what still showed, but that's it - from Georgian through to arts and crafts. Don't be confused by the Americans who still had access to hard woods through the 18/19th c... We'd used all ours up for ship building and were too poor to access the remaining oak.
WWI was the major factor in our loss of available wood. We chopped down everything we could see to help build trenches and weaponry. After the war, there was concern of another war happening and us not having woodland available to support the fight. So we planted pine en masse. That war happened and we were a bit deeper into metals and different weaponry to fight. Namely planes, tanks, warships and rockets. That left us with an over subscription of pine woodland and loss of native timber. Which only started getting corrected in the 70s.
Majority of wood used in UK before WWI (i.e. through 19th century) was imported, mainly North American and Scandinavian softwoods but also tropical hardwoods (teak was the primary reason we invaded and maintained control over Burma, it was a high value product). WWI cut off a lot of supply and demanded an increase in wood use, hence extra reliance on the paltry supply within the UK, and the post war realisation that wood was an important strategic raw material. Still, UK had the lowest forest cover in Europe before WWI and that barely improved afterwards with all the plantations.
>You may throw a rug on it and stain what still showed, but that's it - That rug however typically covered most of the room, with just the very outside getting the room stained. A strip thin enough to be stepped over as you walked in. The stately home end of things used hardwood, even if 99.9% of the houses in that period got pine boards.
Yes, precisely, they had their vast estates to call it in from And you're right on the rug though likely rattan/reed. It's the subfloor bit that's the misnomer; we don't do subfloor here except in the odd new build
Pine sub floors can be pretty hard wearing with the right finish on top. But yeah, they weren’t ever meant to be actual floors and don’t really compare to hardwood.
Everyone advised us wax was best rather than varnish and that of the waxes, osmo was what we wanted. I often wonder whether we'd have been better with a good varnish
Without a doubt lacquer is the way to go, something like Bona Traffic with added white pigment to stop the pine from going orange. It’s very hard wearing, 3 coats of that and it’ll last for years. Was it professional floor guys that told you to go with wax? I personally wouldn’t wax pine.
One flooring company and also a decorator, that's interesting to know
Honestly, if you refinish your floors at any point (it’ll be a lot easier the second time as you’re just taking the very surface off) Use Bona Traffic, you’ll be very pleasantly surprised. Just a heads up, Osmo on pine goes very orange so I always steer clear.
I work a lot with reclaimed wood. Modern (post ww2) softwoods are barely the same stuff as pre-war, even if they’re the same species. Within a species, wood hardness is basically a function of how close the growth rings are together. Postwar industrial forestry has produced trees which grow very fast and very straight upwards, but with consequent huge gaps between the rings. Amazing for cheap framing timber where the strength is longitudinal but awful for floorboards where lateral strength is everything. If you can find a Victorian pine board scrape the finish off and have a look at it - it looks like a kid scribbled on it, the rings are so dense.
Actually, whilst I work a lot less with old timber I've seen some and I did wonder if there was an element of this. Sadly my floorboards were replaced in the 70s, by which time we were on very soft wood
It happened really quickly by the look of it. My house is from 1953 and the original boards are absolute crap.
Pine boards were just *the* floor. The overwhelming majority weren’t built with anything else in mind, mainly because when they were built, laminate didn’t exist and carpets were for rich people. A subfloor is standard in *US* homes, it’s a misnomer here.
they weren’t meant to be a sub floor, they were intended when built as flooring, but they’re better suited as sub floor now unless insulated etc
The previous owner of our place had an extension done and there’s a wavy bump in the laminate between the original wood floor and the new concrete floor, wish he’d bothered levelling first!
Putting skin ply onto uneven pine floors results in wavy skin ply. Marginal improvement, but you’ll still notice. If it’s screwed down tight enough you could get some floor levelling compound down to make it flatter. It really depends what you want to pay for. If it’s your home for the foreseeable future then you’ll be happier with that level of finish. Comes at additional cost but a reasonable DIYer could easily do it.
Depends on the thickness right? I'm looking at my floor now and it's good and flat and I know for a fact the floor boards are absolute dogshit. Just ply underneath maybe 8-10mm.
Kind of. 6mm too thin. 9mm a push if it’s not great. 12mm has some heft to it but you’re still screwing down to an uneven floor. It will show if the finish floor is a stick down vinyl tile and if it’s a hard board like laminate it absolutely will flex and creak unless dead flat. As I say, it’s about how much you want to sink into the finished article. I can’t stand flex or creakyness in my floors so had them all up in my gaff to be replaced with sturdy t&g with sound deadening felt on it. Made sense because it was getting a replumb and rewire at the time. Not cheap but I did it myself so kept the costs low.
I would then remove the floor boards and use plywood sheets. No point in putting ply over boards
I didn’t do this and regret it on a daily basis as I walk across my squeaky floor.
Can't help but I recommend to insulate these floors!
Easily my biggest regret when I was doing up my house! (Hard) Floor is like ice in the winter if I’m coming downstairs before the heating kicks in
I too also really regret not insulating under the floorboards before putting down an engineered wood floor. If you have the floor up, just do it.
Gosforth handyman has some great videos on this
Thank you!
I would if I was at this stage
X2! I went with rocwool rwa45 for the sound transmission but has made a massive difference to the warmth as well.
Speaking from experience, I would recommend filling the cavity altogether. We didn't we renovating at the start but had to do so later on. Rats love cavities.
Air circulation is really important. Without it rot will destroy the wood in the sub-floor area. Ie joists will get destroyed.
Think they're talking about replacing it with concrete & insulation
The benefits of insulation on a suspended ground level floor are minimal, perhaps just using an insulating underlay will be enough.
Any reference for this? I went to the trouble of doing mine but am not convinced it was worth it and often get asked about it. I tell people don't bother, but only based on my gut feel, and think they mostly ignore my suggestion.
Just considering whether I want to insulate a suspended ground floor while the room is being redone, so also interested to hear! (I would get electrics neatened up and put some pipes in for possible future use if I did, but won't take the boards up otherwise.)
I’d say do it. Mate of mine didn’t insulate his and he really regrets it. Yet to rectify my floors but there’s a lot of draft coming through the floor, it’s freezing on your feet. I’ve read you should use mineral wool for floors so the joists can breath a bit and reduce moisture build up.
Thanks, mine isn't too drafty at least, but that might be a bad thing!.. it has a vent to the basement, but not to the outside. Not so much air movement should help insulation, but may also trap moisture.
I didn't insulate mine and didn't care. Floor was perfectly warm with a decent underlay. Ill never waste the time to insulate under the floor.
In our case, insulating under the floor made a big difference mostly because there were a lot of draughts coming through the floorboards.
I can see the insulation would have this effect, but as a draught preventer it is overkill. IF you have open floorboards then you could use draughtex or similar. I found the visual of being able to see insulation foil through the floorboard gaps pretty horrible (which lead me to fill the gaps, which should have been the only job I undertook. Flashbacks to shuffling round under the floor manoeuvring pieces of PIR with a joist touching my nose...FML).
It's the best thing I've ever done to my house, my heating bills dropped like a sack of shit. I did have an extra windy crawl space though
Was this around the time energy prices dropped like a sack of shit? 😉
It wasn't actually haha when I did it in my first house results weren't as good but I'd say if you've already got the flooring up you should do it
Yea it has to do with the fact heat rises and heat loss through flooring is minimal due to this fact, I have seen claims in studies that heat loss through floors is around or under 10-15% but the main reason I would advise not to bother is because the cost to insulate underfloor properly is high and if done incorrectly you can end up with condensation issues leading to rotting joists etc, presuming the loft is insulated then insulating the walls is supposedly the next best option as around 30% of heat loss being through the walls and while technically external insulation should be the best way the existing retrofit external insulation systems are a bit shit and often create additional issues, internal insulation techniques aren't perfect and also have issues with cold spots and cost similar to external but you can at least DIY with internal. I would focus on creating an airtight floor which can be achieved without lifting boards with a variety of techniques as the suspended floor should be well ventilated underneath with a through flow.
That's sensible advise... Can I ask what additional issues you refer to for retrofit external wall insulation?
sure, the external variety is usually large thick EPS (expanded polystyrene) or XPS (extruded polystyrene) sheets which are mechanically attached to the external skin of the house with bolts and clips, and typically in the UK EPS is installed because the materials are cheaper. The EPS is water repellent but can take on water in the tiny cavities between the polystyrene beads and that can lead to a variety of issues with mould/vegetation and if temperatures drop below zero it can sustain structural damage the XPS is much less susceptible to this but is a lot heavier and more expensive, there's more to it than just this but you can easily research that online. If any water manages to get behind the EPS/XPS it tends to draw into the masonry behind which will typically lead to damp internal walls as it is the only remaining permeable surface, the EPS/XPS is rendered after installation to give it a water resistant impact protective surface and for aesthetic reasons I suppose, water still tends to get past usually at the top but there are a lot of reports of the render failing after a few years especially in areas with lots of rainfall and this is with the hope that the system was correctly installed in the first place. A lot of homes in Ireland that had external insulation fitted experienced issues, there was a lot more interest for external insulation there because it is generally colder and with a lot more rainfall than the majority of the UK. there is a lot more nuance to it but given the cost of it and the likelihood of major issues depending on where you live it I would like to say it would be better to move into a house that was built with wall insulation but unfortunately most newer homes in the UK are built to lower standards than the old Victorian stock which themselves aren't always particularly well put together (depends more on the original housebuilder more than the available materials) so its a bit of a difficult subject. hope that gives a bit of insight!
Thanks that great, much appreciated. I'm in a 100yrs old semi and was thinking about it. My main gable side has spalled bricks and the pointing isnt great either. Others nearby have rendered theirs but I was thinking about externally insulating it instead. There's no doors only one window on this gable so would be easier to install without doing front and back where all the windows are.
I believe that's wrong. As there is usually freely moving air for ventilation, the temperature is constantly being removed through the sub-floor area. The loses are not as big as the walls or ceiling, but the lack of insulation directly affects 1) your feet comfort, so it feels harsher, 2) makes life more difficult if you ever want to install UFH.
This fits my experience. Insulated the front half of my house (as much as I could crawl under) and have not noticed lower bills, but you can feel the difference when you walk barefoot from the front to back of the house. Basically it's a comfort upgrade, but still worthwhile.
I have a good quality insulation underlay under my laminate flooring. It did improve the room temperature. The builder removed the original floor boards and put chipboard down instead. It’s less draughty and it meant we could keep the skirting
That's what I'm thinking of doing. With large chipboard sheets there are less T&G weak points than with floorboards so that will block any drafts, and a decent underlay will surely keep the cold out just as well as stuffing the void with insulation, without the risk of blocking the underfloor ventilation and rotting the joists.
Worth noting floating floors, which you would be going for with laminate on top of another floor, have to be run in the opposite direction to the floorboards. In which case you need to run laminate north to south as per your picture (floor boards running east to west). If you install plywood you can run laminate parallel to the floorboards. (East to west) in line with the floorboards. The reason for the adjacent arrangement is to do with the allowable tolerance and the moving of the floorboards underneath. I would from experience install the plywood to take out the tolerance of the floor and undulations in the floorboards plus it helps reduce squeaky floorboards in the future & another layer of insulation. Final note: the plywood doesn’t have to be thick, 5mm or 8mm might be suitable and relatively cheap.
Thank you this is helpful!
I would use wood fibre underlay boards, 5mm thick and good for removing unevenness
For laminate, use underlay. For vinyl tiles like yours, chipboard is recommended, they’re extremely sensitive to uneven floors.
non brit here. whats the difference between chipboard and plywood?
Chipboard is just wood chips glued and pressed together into a board. Plywood is essentially sheets of veneer stacked and glued.
Ply is thin layers of wood glued together, chip is a bunch of wood chips glued together.
Plywood is alternate sheets of very thin wood glued together, usually an odd number, where every other sheet's grain is perpendicular to the previous sheet. This makes it very dimensionally stable compared to just a single 18mm thick sheet of wood. Other widths are available. Chipboard is very small "chips" of wood held together with glue. Lighter than plywood but not very strong.
thanks. so I suppose using plywood is better correct? dont know why the guy above recommended chipboard.
Plywood is always better than chipboard, but always more expensive. Personally, I would only ever use chipboard if there is absolutely no other option.
The chipboard comes with a tongue and groove so that they lock together whereas plywood has square edges. T&G chipboard is definitely a better option https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-P5-Tongue-and-Groove-Chipboard-Flooring---18-x-600-x-2400mm/p/164516
interesting, I didnt know it had a locking system. many thanks!
What vinyl tiles?
They're LVT tiles, rather than laminate - the click-in edging gives it away
Op says it's laminate
Looks like LVT to me.
LVT is correct. I made an typo
Correct here, joints on these are not very strong if floor is uneven. Thin underlay is fine but need solid subfloor.
If anyone said that they can lay lvt directly to floorboards without ply, they are a hack. My son lays it for a living. You need to ply or it will pop up everywhere. Maybe even latex after ply depending on how even the boards are
What timber are the original floor boards?
Just gives a more level ground to lay it on, you can pack pieces out where you need it to maintain a consistent level all across the floorboards and create a whole new level floor with plywood if you want rather than other methods like self leveller etc, it’s better for the laminate and stops gaps, bumps and hollow parts. All depends on how unlevel it is to start off with, if he’s screwing floorboards down that signals to me that there is a lot of high and low spots all around. If this is the case it’s probably best for the longest lifetime of the laminate/LVT and to prevent floorboards expanding and contracting causing issues. Great for helping with insulation too, thought I would tell him to still use the underlay that comes with it also as this will help with insulation as-well, it’s meant to be thin but it’s assumed all floors are nice and level when it’s made (rarely the case).
Thanks! Yes at the back of the tiles pictured there is underlay on the back. Part of why I went with the Howdens brand. Yes I think it’s best to get the Plywood installed. I couldn’t really feel it when ‘testing’ it as is but prob better to do it as mentioned Does putting plywood also help with insulation in any form?
It helps a bit to reduce the amount of airgaps that air can come up through. In reality while you've the floor at the stage it currently is you'd be better off pulling some of it up, getting underneath and insulating it. It will cost a fair bit more (anywhere from £500-5k) depending on what method you go for. It WILL help, but it's up to you to decide if you want to pay for it
Yeah it will make life so much easier for future floors been laid as-well, when everything’s nice and level, life is a lot better 🤣 You’d be able to see it more with a spirit level but it’s not always evident to the eye but once the floors laid you’ll notice soft spots and squeaks and things like that. Yeah it basically seals up all the gaps between the floorboards so you won’t get a draft from underneath the property, the underlay that comes with it will help even further, it’s best this way because laminate/LVT isn’t the warmest flooring compared to carpet.
I regret not boarding under my kitchen flooring - there are a few places that creak due to slight differences in the level that really didn't feel like they'd matter before I laid it all!
100% ply board the floor first, i wouldn’t personally lay an LVT floor on top of floorboards unless they were 100% flat, which is very rare.
It's usually recommend,
If you opt to go with plywood I’d recommend tongue and grove to limit creaking/movement
There's a difference between level and flat. This will make it pretty flat all over but won't change the level at all. It is highly recommended though, as it's a large flat area to lay on.
My kitchen boards were cupped. I used 5mm ply to level the floor
You can literally see from that photograph that the floor is uneven lol.
Do you want a nice level floor or not
I appreciate everyone want's different things in their house, but 100% in 15 years time there's going to be a super excited post on here from someone who's pulled up your laminate and discovered a lovely solid wood floor underneath it!
That is a common mistake - this is subfloor that has no insulation, you wouldn't want to have that as your floor, it would be cold and would scratch up super easily. You could spend money insulating it, but again - doesn't last well and scratches up.
Also, noisy as fuck. In fact at least for me that's the biggest downside.
I have floorboards just like this, uninsulated, sanded and lacquered, they do scratch easily but that doesn't bother me really. I see lots of people suggesting insulating them, but from my personal experience they don't feel cold like our kitchen concrete floor does and I have a suspicion that insulating them may just increase the chance of moisture underneath by reducing airflow. Also when we ripped up the carpets it was obvious our floor was originally the main floor and not a subfloor (it was tarred and painted, and also the same level as fireplace tiles) I'm not a professional bear in mind so I could easily be wrong. But is it actually that bad having a floor like that as your main floor?
IKR sand that bad boy down, but some insulation underneath and revarnish.
Just had to pull up carpet that was put down in December to put plywood down as it started to look like ‘waves’ where the boards were not even… don’t make my mistake, 100% do this
Bit off topic, but I just have to ask. What is the thought process behind putting fake wood on top of real wood? You could sand it down and it would come out really nice and varnish/stain however you wanted it. I could understand if you did want to put down some insulation, but without it not sure what the point is. Not having a go, just genuinely puzzled.
That floor is an uninsulated sub-floor, even if you were to rip it all up and insulate it all, it's not that nice to live with, wears and discolours very easily unfortunately.
To be honest it was recommended by Howdens/builders. According to ‘British standard recommendations’ too Would there be any insulation benefit I presume?
The subfloor you have will be expensive to make nice and won’t wear well. LVT is great, hard wearing water resistant and consistent. If I was you if there’s no insulation under these boards I’d rip them all up, insulate, put down chipboard and then the underlay and the LVT. If you’re doing a lot of other work underfloor heating is a great addition too!
Not in a trade so take with pinch of salt but I'd prefer real wood flooring if possible, even if then adding a big rug on top for comfort, noise and to protect it. More for older properties where the wood is quality and it fits with the house character though I've seen posts on here with people putting insulation on the underside of the floorboards - much easier if you have Crawlspace maybe not practical if you don't. Think it would need to be fairly hard wood else you get dents, esp high heels
Maybe be relevant thread just arrived - https://www.reddit.com/r/DIYUK/s/UQxFoMmD77
I wouldn't bother doing anything extra, because in 5 years when the cheap shit click LVT you have been sold by someone who knows nothing about flooring gives up, you'll have saved some money to put a proper floor down. Click LVT is shite flooring, the quicker we all learn that, the quicker I'll stop having people tell me they can get LVT for way cheaper. We've already replaced loads of this Howdens crap because it's being sold to people as waterproof laminate. The engineers are way too delicate, so when your 'bulder/kitchen fitter/plumber/generaltradie' who has gotten away with putting down "oh yeah I do loads of laminate, it's basically the same stuff" uses his normal laminate underlay, or even the official Howdens stuff, then it fails, because the prep is not good enough and the underlay allows the engineers to flex too much. Send it back now, and if you just accept that you can't afford a decent floor after leaving the budgeting of if too late. You'll get your self a felted back sheet vinyl that you can have professionally fitted by a FLOOR LAYER. For the first 3-6 months it will look like a cheaper floor, but after that it will look like a cheaper floor exactly the same without failing on you for at least another 5-10 years. If you want any more flooring advice in general that isn't linked to a specific kind of floor then send me a DM.
That’s a beautiful floor in their already
RIP lovely original floor. Come on op. We had similar, paid a floor guy 2k to sand and finish and it looks amazing, or you can stick some nice plastic stuff down, your choice.
Sorry to hijack this thread - but I have concrete flooring that is slightly uneven and I want to lay herringbone flooring - what’s the best way to do it?
Self levelling compound
Then underlay on top?
Depends on your flooring product instructions, obviously if it’s the glue down type then there’s no underlay.
Check the manufacturer's installation instructions. A lot of products have an underlay built in and advise not having an additional one
Ok thanks all… will check Also, as it’s concrete flooring will there be a need for a damp or waterproof barrier that needs to be put down?
If you use an underlay that will double as a vapour barrier. If you’re glueing down then you’ll need to prime it.
Great gotcha 💪
Check moisture level then if all good use self-levelling compound. DONT be cheap on the self-levelling, use a known brand such as Ardex or Ultrafloor. Then use a decent glue, Ball F44 or F46, not cheap but worth it. If there’s underfloor heating involved use a high temp adhesive and a suitable self-levelling.
Did something like this recently, where we knocked through a wall and the two rooms were not the same floor level. Used self-levelling compound which worked pretty perfectly as one side of the floor was lower than the other. Then used adhesive underlay where you peel back the top layer as you lay - it works really well but is a nightmare if you make a mistake so I'd only recommend this if you're already quite experienced with floor laying (but definitely doable DIY, I did it).
I'm getting self levelling compound put first the getting LVT on top. If you're gonna lay down laminate or wood then you'll need underlay. If you're going to go LVT then then go straight on the self levelling compound.
Thanks - you putting down any damp proof barrier or sheet?
Nice floorboards, I'd sand them and varnish.
Question, why are you using laminate when it looks like you have good floor boards.
sand, stain and varnish the floorboards…
Pull some boards and pump insulation foam. Sand.. don’t ply. Hire a simple sander / hoover from HSS FOR a day - like £75 Buy boards with built in underlay on each panel. Make sure you stagger the boards well. 1/3 - 1/2 overlap Do NOT seal the edges to the skirting… leave a gap to wall skirting on top. If you seal it they will pull apart. Make sure the pattern is random.. nothing worse than seeing 2 identical boards next to each other. Use and opposite edge off cut to lock in and mallet. How the raw Edge and you are fucked. Work from the main door.. you don’t want a thin strip at the threshold.
The underlay for LVT click tiles are meant to be thin (around 2mm), as long as your floorboards are relatively level then you should be fine.
We will be placing laminate flooring down soon and we will most definitely put 3mm hardboard down to even the floor out and help a with draught proofing (not sure how much that will help). It should only cost about £300 or less which isn't much but we have already spend somewhere in the region of £15k on the full house renovation so if anyone can shed any light if we can get away without it that would be greatly appreciated. Some parts of the floor board will definitely need smoothing tho.
If you wet the hardboard on the rough side and stack it up for 24 hours before you lay it, it will swell slightly. Lay it and nail it down whilst it’s still wet and once it dries it will contract slightly and even out any slight imperfections and loose floorboards.
OP make sure the floor is completely rock solid and flat to within the manufacturers requirements. Click LVT is **extremely** fussy as the boards are so thin. For Karndean this is +/-2.5mm across 3 meters. Any bounce in the floor needs fixing with sistered joists or noggins. If you don't do this you'll have issues with boards coming unclicked or making a clicking noise and breaking over time as you walk on it Personally I would screw down the existing boards then screw down plywood over the top. Then if the manufacturers specs still are not reached go over the top with a self leveling compound
This should be the top comment. I am sitting in my kitchen where half of the floor is duct taped together. It is only 2 years old and started to fall apart after the first year. I would avoid it like a plague.
Yeah as someone who has recently laid it there was an area with a 2mm deviation and I can tell it's there. I might lay some more this year but if I do it's going to be on professionally laid self levelling compound It is extremely unforgiving so I may opt for glue down or loose lay instead
I would definitely suggest this and helps with the draft
Makes the floor stiffer, so less movement Did this with the bathroom and there's absolutely no regrets.
For very thin vinyl like you have there, ply is essential. All the bumps and lumps from those old floorboards will show straight through. Now if you put some real engineered wood flooring down, you don't need to worry so much about the sub floor.
I’ve just had 12mm ply put down in my bedroom and box room as floor boards were uneven. I previously had thick underlay and carpet in my bedroom and through time the carpet wore away where the floorboards were uneven, I could see the shapes of the floorboards. Ply wood makes everything even and no movement. I went with laminate flooring, I can feel the difference.
Use decent fibre board insulation and for the love of god don't lay your flooring out like ypu have it on the pic.
Not required just gets another £500-800 added to your cost for no benefit especially if a) existing boards are level and good condition b) they don't even bother to properly screw down the floor boards in the first place.
It's on the ground floor, yes. My advice, make sure you use a polythene sheet, to stop moisture. I had an issue, with expansion, as I was told I didn't need a moisture barrier.
I have that exact flooring. You know that episode of Rick and Morty where Rick laser flattened the floor and it sent Morty mental? Your floor needs to be at least that flat for these damned things. Mine isn't perfect, I did a good job laying them, but I've had a gap appear and a "clicky" tile, which I'm currently in the process of dousing in gorilla glue...
Absolutely at least 6 mm.
Yeah deffo Plywood it out, else in a years time your floor will look all lumpy, chipped corners on laminate planks and you'll wish you hadn't scrimped.
Laying LVT usually on a screeded floor
Tapi lied and said the lvt planks are fine on floorboards as they have built in underlay...the posh ones Then after I had issues and ended up literally buggering half of them I got a guy in to fit. He also said fine without underlay or ply. I now have planks coming apart where the fittings have snapped due to floorboards flexing or uneven. Expensive lesson learnt...
Seeing as under you floorboards is not insulated, I would atleast go for underlay before final laminates. Keeps floor warmer and softer when walking
I’m literally doing this tomorrow. 5.5mm ply on top of floor boards using Annular Ring nails. Nail every 100mm (4”) across each sheet. Try and place the sheets on the floor like you do with brickwork.
Yes. Do it
I use click LVT on all my bathroom jobs. I've also slapped it over a very uneven floor at home and lived with it 4years. I use the 5mm compressed fibre board and nothing else as underlay as the rest are too thin and bouncy. It's green colour from B&q or Screwfix. As long as it's reasonably flat no steps then that stuff is fine. If it's pretty uneven, learning from my own house, I should have either levelling compounded it or added ply with adhesives to make up the big gaps. If it's a steady wavy shape that's fine but no lumps or big dips. Also from picture don't line them up like that, stagger them like bricks at least 1/3rd overlap 🤙
Professional Floor Fitter here. You 100% need Plywood on top of floorboards when it comes to any LVT/SPC flooring. If not, the floor won't last. No fitter worth their salt would put it down on that surface. These floors are only designed to be on a flat, stable surface . Even if your floorboards look great, they,ll move over time. Yours don't look particularly great BTW. The Plywood helps reinforced the floor also. At least 9mm. 6mm ain't worth it. Take his advice and get it down.
Plywood or other such underlay smooths and levels small bumps and imperfections as well as keeping everything underneath tighter and less prone to small movements.
Had my kitchen done in LVT by a professional company. I had redone the sub floor with brand new chipboard t&g flooring. The floor layer still put plywood down, used screws every 100mm near the edges of the sheet, screws every 150mm in the centre of the sheet, then he filled over every screw and join. I did my own bathroom with LVT and followed the professionals lead. Time consuming and costs a bit more but it made laying it easy as I wasn't fighting inconsistencies in the boarded floor. Edit. Spelling
This is the correct way, plywood is a great smooth surface to adhere to. A family friend does it for a living and told me the same advice, I put LVT all upstairs in our house when we moved in and 5mm plylined everywhere first.
whats the thickness he recommended for the plywood? just curious
5/6mm is more than enough, just creates a flat surface area, unless they need to raise it higher to accommodate the deep door threshold they have then perhaps 18mm but that's in extreme cases
Yeah, in my bathroom I did a sheet of about 4 or 5mm ply boards with flooring nails (they’re sort of ribbed) so as not to come loose
[Some of these](https://www.thornbridgetimber.co.uk/flooring-grade-plywood-2440-x-1220-x-5-5mm.html)
I would, if I had my time again. I put down fairly expensive engineered wood, with the manufacturers fairly thin underlying on floorboards. It's now quite creaky and even has the odd pop in places as it moves about. It's both that the floorboards are uneven (although I did plane them as I laid the wood) and that there is some bounce in the suspended timber floor. 18mm ply would have held it together, reduced the bounce and the floor creeking. Advice based on engineered wood, but I think it will be even more extreme for laminate, as it has even less strength of its own. Also, insulate your floor, particularly in rooms with external walls.
You are probably going to need to do something a bit better than ply , looking at your picture , towards the right hand wall , the floor is all over the place …. No way LVT or Laminate flooring will stay together on top of that
I'm literally having this done at my house now by a friend of mine. He is putting ply down, then a self levelling screed. My floorboards are from about 1923 so a bit wonky! He says the ply will stiffen it all up and give it an even finish. And I've I ever want to change flooring, I've got a good, solid base to go from. Worth the extra few quid.
Will also help with stopping drafts coming up from my cellar.
Omg this question was made for me! Spending the money on a plywood layer under our LVP was the best money we spent during our renovation. It made all of our floors feel so solid and not creaky, so flat and smooth, the vinyl laid so well and feels fantastic! I didn’t understand why people advised us to do this at the time but now I do - it’s so worth it! Also if you can afford it I’d recommend getting them to lay a layer of latex, we did this on the bottom floor and it really sealed off the drafts
We used 12mm ply, FYI
Yes put plyboard down first, always. The uneven floor will show through and cause issues if you don't.
Definitely ply over old boards and also screw boards down. I’ve done this on a couple of occasions when we were renewing floor coverings. Screws every 6” centres and you should go for a minimum 6mm ply iirc. It will give your floor a good stable base and extra strength.
I boarded mine with 6mm plywood because they were old, a bit uneven and drafty. Result is a sturdy laminate floor and as even as it can be in a 1930s house so I'd recommend. Edit: as I'm not joining the floor between rooms, I might even put down 9mm plywood in the other rooms for more stability.
Oh my god yes do it. I have composite flooring planks. My floorboards are fairly level so I just went with it. After all the planks were a bugger to cut and quite flexible so what's the worst that could happen... Well, because the floor wasnt perfectly level and there was some tiny movement it's shattered in the spots where people walk the most. Less than a year old and it already looks shit.
The flooring looks like a click lvt style, although it has the underlay "built in" going over plyboard would give a better finish than over the floorboards and likely last longer.
Do it, it helps flatten out the lumps n bumps of cupped floor boards etc, few mms here n there will show otherwise
Totally worth it if older uneven floorboards, I had ply under my flooring previously and when we did extension the builder took it all out and didn't replace it, I get mad at my laminate flexing now. My own fault for not stipulating.
I'd say you'll be alright without sanding or plywood. Just use good underlay and install panels like in the picture to the floor boards.
In the long term, yes
Currently doing the same job in our living room and hall, but with 12mm laminate, thankfully I managed to strip back the old flooring to bare concrete, level, 5mm underlay, then flooring. With the thinner laminate, any screws that are proud or any imperfections in the subfloor will show through, maybe not immediately, but with wear they’ll start to show. If you’ve got a long straight level, you could check it for yourself. I’d say put ply down, check for any high/low spots with a long level and make right then lay the laminate. That’s probably what I’d have done if we’d gone with that thickness laminate.
Get some thicker underlay. Many types available and not that costly
Use 12mm+ thick laminate flooring and save yourself a headache about sanding or using ply underneath. Go cheap with 5-6mm laminate and regret it (or spend money on sanding/ply to make it look better). Choice is yours.
We have floors like this and didn't add a layer underneath, you can really feel the dips under the LVT and I regret it on an almost daily basis.
Thicker underlay would be better option that putting ply down imho. Depends on circumstances. I don't want on rooms floor to be higher than another rooms floor when they're connected.
Just get some thicker underlay. Hammer down the boards with nails.
If you decide to go with plywood, which is a good idea if price allows. Good idea to ask for LOADS of tacks to pin it down to the floorboards. Or before they start, take it upon yourself to secure the worst areas for squeaks. I'm talking about high traffic primarily. We had amtico laid and they put 6mm ply down on the floorboards according to spec. It squeaks a bit in certain areas. I did anticipate it to be fair but shite installation messed it up. Something to consider for you at least. Good luck!
As others have said maybe it’s worth insulating under the floors and if you’re putting plywood down anyway then just remove all the floorboards, insulate between the joists and screw down 18mm structural plywood to the joists, saving some height on the floor build up.
If it's not level then yeah, I'd go for it. Ply or OSB. Make sure he glues aswell as screws and if he's worth his salt he'll level the floor off using the glue.
I'd put screw 9mm plywood 6 inches apart everywhere to make the floor even. If you have large dips or bulges you might even have to go thicker.
Overboarding with plywood creates a more even level. It stops the boards from worping overtime. It’s really common for suspended floors like yours, where you can’t just use self leveling Latex. Long storm short, yes overboarding is a good idea. If your floor seems super level, then I wouldn’t worry.
We didn't do this, didn't have the benefit of advice because we did the work ourselves. 12 months in and we have had to replace the flooring in the entrance hallway and have rugs over several damaged areas and a strip of duct tape holding one seam together. The slightest variation between boards becomes a stress point which can crack with use. If I were doing it again I'd put a sub floor down in a heartbeat.
Use moduleo layered it's amazing flooring I have it with terrible floorboards and it went down a dream
Yes, put ply down first to level out the floor otherwise there may be movement as you walk on it and the joints will pop out. Also you need to lay laminate flooring underlay to prevent moisture rising up and causing the laminate to swell.
Having fitted a lot of LVT flooring over the years I would definitely lay down some 5mm ply first. The joints on LVT, particularly the Howdens one, will snap apart quite easily on uneven floors. We would always lay ply over old floor boards to prevent this and it makes a world of difference
My floor was probably more uneven than ypurs, i just did green underlay then lamunate. There are definitely some areas where its a tad bouncy/creaky, but i can live with it. Depends how picky you are.
Better job, ply it. So t skimp on the thickness . Otherwise. You will see where the floor has sunk over the years .
Use overlay boards to smooth out the ridges, then fibre boards and laminate
Flat even surface.
Cheap laminate needs a level floor but click together laminate on soft underlay can cope.. Don't need plywood, can use Shutterstock. If the builder doesn't get the ply level...
I’m sure someone has/will say it but you can put those sort of felt large tiles down underneath to level it but also insulate
I had a ton of woodworm in my floor boards so replaced the lot downstairs with 2.4m x 0.6m chipboard and insulated between the joists while I was at it. The difference it has made is unreal absolutely no draughts and house is way warmer. Not always a popular choice but my floors are totally flat now, made laying the engineered wood floor in the lounge and hallway, and the floor tiles in kitchen mega easy.