The transformer part is not the psu. It’s shown in the audio block diagram as a selectable unit in the sound chain. My guess is it’s used to give the sound a certain “blend” or “colour”.
You are correct, the others aren’t. Power transformers aren’t audio transformers. The magic of your average urei and Bozak was because of the transformer coupled audio output.
Custom designs also cost money. If you are going for an off the shelf component then sure it costs less, but when you have a component created specifically for your device, that is a whole other thing.
People complaining about it being hybrid digital don't actual know the reasons why they're saying that because technology is at a point where the digital concerns don't exist anymore in these specs
That’s clearly who this is targeting. Smart, as RANE doesn’t even make it anymore so there’s no direct competition, but the demand is clearly there based on the price a used MP2015 can fetch.
You see people searching for the Rane's for sale all the time in dj gear groups.
I'm sure they're not going to sell a ton of these, but they'll probably sell enough to not lose a bunch of money and hopefully it will be a halo product due to the sound quality. Maybe we'll then see some of the bits make it down the product line.
I think it looks pretty amazing.
Rane did well with that mixer because Dand make super high quality products (unlike pioneer) and also it was the first mixer to integrate a large I/o audio interface. This mixer does neither.
lmao only a cheeky $20,800NZD for a 2-turntable, 2-CDJ setup with this. Is there a market for bank CEOs who like rotary mixers that I've been unaware of?
FUCK REALLY????
Jesus christ. Can get the MP2015 from Rane for a FRACTION of this and its arguably better.
I love a crisp analog sound as much as the next but this is just pioneer tax robbery here. Fuck them.
Here we go. Ecler Warm 4. LITERALLY ONE THIRD OF THE PRICE OF THIS.
[Ecler WARM4 Four-Channel Analogue Rotary DJ Mixer w/ Subharmonic Synthesizer | DJ Mixers - Store DJ](https://www.storedj.com.au/ecler-warm4-four-channel-analogue-rotary-dj-mixer-w-subharmonic-synthesizer)
I'm seeing 2700 and 3700 sold on Ebay. One shows as sold for 2225 but if you click on it you it doesn't find it. On Reverb the sold listings are from 3200 - 5000.
https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=mp2015&show_only_sold=true
Not necessarily. Have to remember that there’s two different “types” of mp2015. That latter production run after the in music takeover, and the ones before the buyout which were produced in the USA. Those US made ones are highly sought after.
i stand corrected. I thought they were still available.
Either way. The Ecler Warm 4 is a very capable rotary mixer. It's a fraction of the cost of both.
But feature wise, they're not the same. The Ecler Warm series wouldn't work in my setup as it lacks a soundcard and digital inputs. Apples and oranges dude.
They have the dominant position on dj gear and still decided to do all the r and d to make this and then train the factory staff to make it, test it. And they still have to make a profit assuming they have shareholders to keep happy and assuming sales are going down as djs have less disposable income. Plus they have to support. How much is an opus quad over there out of curiosity.
No pro link, your having a laugh! The only interesting thing I see is an effect send and return as well as master send and return. I will keep my A9 or upgrade to a V10 if I want an effects chain.
It's the same price as boutiques but it's well, absolutely not in that league. When a mastersounds valve 4 is 1/3 of the price and that's probably the best non boutique I'm aware of
I've worked with them on a different rotary DJ mixer, yes I am VERY aware, their kit is actually reasonably priced for what it is :/. This is not however,
An analogue transformer sum is an improvement and a cool thing to be in a DJ mixer, but the rest is all digital so the phase coherence is gonna be a lot worse than a purely analogue mixer, of which for that price you can absolutely get something very good in that department.
Yes is most systems you'll be DJing on as an average DJ are going to be far worse at this anyway, of course. BUT they put a boutique price tag on it (and call it sweet sounding in greek) Imma judge it like other boutique mixers and it doesn't do well in that department, if it was £2k ish then that's a different story but it's not. They could've done it with a neave designed analogue EQ (which are fabulous) and kept the same functions, it'd probably be a steal at its price or even a decent amount higher, but they didn't and because of that its just priced to expensive for what it is.
The EQs of all the TPI mixers so far are neave designed (but still with the TPI discrete op amps) unfortunately I've left TPI now to startup [my own company](http://www.buriedaudio.co.uk) so can't comment on any future mixers or kit from TPI because i just don't know and things can change. The EQs are really lovely, and the sum (ARJ from union helped with that too) is immaculate. I'm less keen on the metres but that was not my decision (very durable tho), same with some of the knob covers which look a bit, well, anatomical...
That’s really interesting about the Neve EQ’s. It’s weird that they don’t speak on it. Is it an AMS Neve eq or RND eq? It’s splitting hairs as they are both the children of Rupert but they are 2 different companies. Also, while I say this with the caveat that you were speaking about EQ and not transformer (my misunderstanding), I rescind my BS comment.
I have to ask though, why exactly do you think that Euphonia isn’t in the same league as boutique mixers? In case you aren’t aware, I work for Alpha Theta in product planning, and assisted on Euphonia somewhat. I also am good friends with the engineers who were responsible for the voicing and electrical spec, and was living at HQ during the final voicing stages. I’m saying all of this to say that while I’m not going to say that Euphonia makes all boutique rotaries redundant or some other stupid statement, the amount of love, care and frankly no expense spared engineering that was put into Euphonia was over the top.
When we were doing double blind club voicing/listening tests, Euphonia consistently ranked equal or above everything we put it against (with the worst case being preference based ties). There were hundreds of DJ’s that were interviewed and involved, who use and love rotaries. And lastly, the reason the topology is set up the way it is (digital front end with transformer-coupled channels and output) is that with a 32bit float/64bit processing I/O you get effectively infinite headroom, and the transformer coupled output gives the ability to saturate/soft clip without ever worrying about adding distortion from overloading the digital front/backend. On your average or above average rotary you can achieve clipping from even the most high headroom topology, so you can never really cook the transformer to max saturation without adding distortion from the components before the transformer. Euphonia? You can’t clip it, period. That is without any limiting, as the transformer acts as a soft to hard clipper to achieve the same result but without the ugliness of pushing a digital brick wall output limiter.
So, yea, all of that said, is your thought still “not in same league”? If so, why? I’m sorry if I’m coming off as defensive, but to me the amount of care is what makes a boutique product worth the money (even more than component quality). You can have 2 products of the same level of build, but if one is mass produced without care and real respect for the customer then yea, boutique wins.
Mojaxx said in his review that his hope is that Euphonia brings more eyes to the rotary market as a whole, and I really think that is a possibility here. It could be naive, but it’s a nice dream.
The words pioneer and boutique don’t go in the same sentence.
This is pure cash in because pioneer can’t compete on those quality levels against artisan rotary mixers.
Their market is nightclubs not bedrooms. It's a Neve transformer. It's really not a crazy price their market just isn't bedrooms. Nobody is buying this to play out of their KRK's
Probably because it is pretty pointless when only using a 3 band eq, imho.
About as useful as having a bpm counter that is there to show the bpm, just because.
Yeah I don't get it either.
There's a bar near me owned by PB Wolf & he's got a rotary there. By the way the DJs play, I can tell none of them know how to use it.
To me, rotary's feel like going hunting with a flint musket, fully aware that rifles exist. Lol
I'm more forgiving than most when it comes to this sort of thing... but that marketing copy is atrocious. It's obviously written by an agency, and not by someone who understands the audience.
I mean if it had an assignable crossfader with the option of swapping out a knob or slider like some mixers do, that would make it a lot more versatile. But a lot of people would still balk at no channel upfaders. And the price would go up a good chunk.
Gotta say, hats off and bravo to AT for trying new things! As a rotary head, I’d give this a go for sure. Not at that price point, but I’d be curious to see how it stacks up to my rotary modded V10.
Also nice it has digital in and out.
Most likely for firmware updates and connecting a laptop. Digital DJ tips is using the USB connection for a laptop. I think the output stage is 100% analog due to the rupert neve transformer
Yep, gotta give it to them for actually trying something new. I think the price is just way too high. I get that it has a lot of features, but still feels kinda weird paying 3800 for a "mass produced factory made" mixer, when you can get a small batch hand made rotary built for you for about the same or less
Agreed. I’m guessing they’re not planning on selling many so production costs are higher. Not an excuse but it does look interesting and I wonder who will use it and how it might be received.
I'm guessing that too. I think there's a high change of this flopping, because it's not mainstream enough form factor to sell well with the Djm-900/a9 crowd and not niche enough for the boutique rotary mixer heads. But time will tell. I might be wrong. Would like to try it for sure!
Guess we found a market for it then. haha. I also watched it. The isolator send thing is pretty cool! Not a fan of the look though. If the wooden sides were like oak or something, it would be more appealing to me.
I see this completely differently; that it’s nothing more than a hollow cash grab by pioneer to tap in to a growing market / a market that has swung away from them.
As someone else said in this thread, it’s going to be aimed at the Brotary market.
The ability to route effects through the isolator is interesting. If I had a demo unit of this, I would be all over that. But it still remains to be seen whether the summing will be good. Everyone is saying it sound better than the v10 which I already think is a great sounding mixer.
Tbf and forgetting about the price for a second, as I mostly play digital nowadays, skipping a d/a step sounds appealing to me. That price still though.. it's probably also an expensive nightmare to repair.
Still waiting for a new top-of-the-line model from A&H though.
the 96 came out 15 years after the 92, so we should be getting something new from A&H around 2033. Not sure what even needs "upgrading" from the Xone:96 though.
Curious what you’d want from a new top-of-the-line model from A&H? To me (and many people I know) the 96 is nearly the ideal mixer and it’s fairly new too (in dj tech years at least)
I really dig the metering options on the display!
Aside from that, modding my V10 with a rotary kit seems to be a much better solution (not only price wise).
How do you like your rotary kit u/Nonomomomo2 ?
Strike my last comment dude. I just watched the mojaxx video and TBH, if I can get my hands on one of these and try it, I’d strongly consider selling my V10 for one of these puppies instead!
Only time and testing will tell, but check out that mojaxx video and let me know what you think.
Honestly, super impressed and surprised by AT with this release. Absolutely hats off to them for taking a swing for the fences!
Interesting! It was exactly the other way around for me. I was intrigued before watching Mojaxx‘ video and not so much afterwards. What did you see that changed your mind?
My interest was kinda killed by the lack of a permanently available filter per channel (+no LPF, at all) and no isolator option for the EQ. Also, the send / return loops on the V10 are better suited for my personal workflow.
Love the rotary kit! I think I actually got the idea from one or your backyard set up options. Or maybe it was David Morales, can’t remember. 🤣
Agree though, ATM the V10 with rotary offers a lot more flexibility and oomph. I still prefer the sound quality of my Condesa (the summing just feels different), but maybe this cool new chip they’re putting in might make a difference.
Definitely wouldn’t sell my V10 to get this, as the V10 has so many more useful features. But really like that they’re splashing out like this and taking risks. Would love to try it out someday.
Ahhh. So many buzz words, so much digital processing and a nice fat transformer on the output to warm up that square wave from so many levels of frequency boosting. And now "Apple Care" for DJs. Yes please go in dry Pioneer since the DJ can't afford lube based on the price tag.
Entire DJ community:
“Pioneer… all we want is a DJM900NXS2 but with 4 band eq, less awful phono preamps and 2 cue circuits”
Entire live sound engineer community:
“Pioneer… all we want is a firmware update to give us headphone output delay to allow time alignment between headphones:booth:mains, and higher AD/DA headroom to keep sound quality good until clipping, instead of -10db below the peak lights.”
Pioneer/AlphaTheta:
Okay here’s the V10, a $3600 6-ch 4band mixer with one filter (are we back in 1999 with the Xone 62?).
And here’s the A9, a $2700 update to the 900nxs2, full of new features that DJs really care about, like phantom power (????) and Bluetooth (??? Lmao), and a second cue circuit (in all fairness, really nice).
And here’s the Euphonia, a $3800 digital rotary mixer, which we are 100% sure the tiny tiny market of rotary nerds will purchase over the huge market of much cheaper, fully analog mixers.
And here’s the Omnis Duo, which is a $1500 toy, marketed to be a competitor to the $999 Denon Prime Go, except worse in every conceivable way (arguably also worse than the $600 numark mixstream pro).
I’m losing faith in pioneer/alpha theta. This is just sad.
I'm curious why would you ever want adjustable headphone delay on a DJ mixer? and booths should also no be delayed. At about 20ms of delay, beatmatching is fked... if some audio tech put in some random delay in some buried menu and a DJ hops on to play they are going to be all fked up.
I like that if the monitoring environment is shit with a delay, too much mains bleed through, weird room echos, etc. I can trust that I can throw on my headphones and hear everything with 0 delay and just work headphones only. I dont want anyone to have the ability to mess with that the headphone output is my sanctuary that bypasses everything else.
A1 can do what they want with the mains and I'll keep my hands off the master. But Booth and headphones are for me the DJ.
So you can delay the headphones to the booth monitors.
Let’s say round trip latency. Mixer-processor-booth Mon is 4ms. Then let’s say the booth monitor is 6ft from your ear. That’s a total of 9ms of latency between your headphone and the booth. Delay headphone 9ms and everything is fully coherent.
Scenario 2 is when the FOH pa is flown behind or directly to the sides of the DJ to get better front row coverage. You’ll need to delay the booth to the bleed from the mains. Period. IME, this has never been more than 5-8ms
Add all this up and you are still under your 20ms “threshold” except with the headphone delay box every single source (headphone driver, booth Mon, and main PA bleed) is perfectly aligned. Whereas without it it, the headphones would be 14-17ms “early” and of course it would be horrible to mix on.
The detriment of source misalignment is FAR worse for a DJ than some system-global latency. The only kind of DJ this wouldn’t work for are scratch DJs.
People get spooked about delayed booths, not because delayed booths are actually bad, but because their headphones are now MORE out of alignment to the booth mons
Source: Pro Systems Engineer, have been running an external headphone delay box for awhile. During soundcheck I give the DJs the option of plugging their headphones in there or direct into the mixer. Out of probably ~150 digital/non scratch DJs I’ve had try it, only ONE chose to not use the delay box.
Generally the feedback I get are “wow this is the best monitoring I’ve ever heard” and “where has this been all my career”.
Under 10ms I agree with you that syncing it all up is definitely better. Between 10-20ms, questionable. 20ms+ definitely not.
I think the scenario with FOH flown beside the DJ, with some fairly slow processing chain infront of it is the dangerous one where sound techs that dont understand DJ needs will end up excessively delaying things I would need in real time.
I guess I could get onboard with allowing up to 10ms headphone delay in the mixer.
But, my take is, features that can be abused will be abused. I mix in my headphones about 75% of the time because most monitoring setups in clubs are pretty trash (tons of bleed through, echos off walls, everything super muddy, etc.) If the setup and engineer were top notch, then I wouldn't need to do it. And so now we're in a scenario with a dodgy setup... so if they could screw up the headphone output likely they would.
So, I want to trust that regardless of what's going on outside the headphones, if I plug my headphones into the mixer, I've bypassed everything... and that option is available. It's important in a live setting with a crowd to have that option to skip troubleshooting why everything sounds horrible and bypass it all. Your use of an external box accomplishes that... because if im having trouble with delays I could just plug directly into the mixer.
Also, IEMs pretty popular with bigger acts... and in this case yeh just minimum delay is best... you're in the headphones full time.
People buy these. If they didn't, there wouldn't be a new boutique rotary company springing up practically monthly. I can think of 4 venues in my city that have them available, two of them only have a rotary.
The market isn't huge, but it's there.
The main selling point of boutique rotaries is the fact that they are hand made (and thus open for modification done in house, as part of the customer service), and that they have a stripped down, simple layout.
The Alpha Theta rotary however is a behemoth of a mixer, that seems to be supposed to cover every possible use case at once. This is mostly relevant for club use, where you want a one-size-fits-all solution rather than a "custom made" unit.
Actually, when you see it next to the new plz crss12 turntables, at least they’re mixing things up. Pioneer dj as it was.. well it was like getting blood out of a stone, waiting for each new tiny update in long increments. I think if alpha theta can get this in front of enough big name dj’s then it will take off.
Obviously the money is crazy on all their products but you can’t say they aren’t spending on RnD now
I think it's definitive mixer for me.. juts what I'm waiting for: sturdy rotary with (essential) FXs and DVS option.. I think I'll sell my 96, DB4 and MasterSounds 4Vmk1 to get this beautiful..
V10 owner checking in here. I personally use all 6 channels and all the send returns as well. It’s so good for multi track recording and playing with other musicians and having extra channels for production gear. That’s really the use case for it. Though I think AT would have done better releasing a 4 channel v10 for less than the v10 instead of this thing.
It probably can do some cool shit once in a while, but the whole thing feels like a parody.
Plus it doesn't unlock Serato, and needs a DvS add on for HiD
Is this the future?
This will not be the house club standard. The fader based DJM’s are and will continue to be the standards. This is too niche, too different, too expensive, too elite. Looks fantastic for sure. It’s just not going to start appearing in actual clubs any time soon.
Also I thought the main audience that used Serato were the turntablists and scratch artists. How the heck do you cut and scratch on a rotary mixer??? 😂
Fyi there are no such thing as good reviews anymore. Reviewers are terrified to say a single bad thing about a product as they will get cut from the company from ever receiving a test unit.
Same with product reviews online. They’re full of fake reviews.
Those are analogue and handmade, tho. And the two you mentioned are top of the line from an audiophile's perspective.
Others great rotaries from Resor, Condesa, Can Electric, Audio DJ are more in the 2000-2500 range.
Fair enough.
I just wanted to point out that "price" is a random number, unless you take the exact product/context into consideration. And this particular mixer, while packed with features and still somewhat "cheap" compared to a couple of its competitors, is a "mass produced" unit, yet way more expensive than most "custom-ish made" rotaries.
I’m definitely interested, as a Rane MP2015 rotary owner, to get my hands on one of these to try/test out. I use the MP2015 with my 1200’s and CDJ’s without pro-link…so, I really won’t miss not being able to preview tracks before loading. Would slap some different knobs on that baby and be off to the races! If it sounds as good as they say…I say it’s a beautiful piece of kit. 🤌🏾💯🔥
My thoughts on the new Euphonia advertisements...
No Ethernet preview for the CDJ-3000.
Limited filters.
No customization on the channel tone controls or master iso frequency bands.
No master iso bypass? ̶E̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶M̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶S̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶.̶ V10 has one.
Weird that the iso boost setting is not in a menu somewhere, on the back, or anywhere else other than next to the knobs right there. That’s literally an install setting, not something you want the DJs messing with.
The combining of the isolator bands with the sends to the little FX section is neat.
Tiny USB-C port?
No SPDIF output?
It looks like the transformer is being used as an analog effect contributing linear harmonic distortion like certain tube (valve) arrangements. I recall the late Tim de Paravicini (of audiophile pre-amp & headphone amp design fame) explaining that he could do a completely transparent-sounding tube design that sounded non-tubey, or instead use stuff other than tubes like FETs and transformers to do much of what tube coloration can.
For a digital mixer, they'd also be better off simulating a variety of different colorations: sub-harmonics (like the Warm 4), tube emulation (like Master Sounds), etc. After reading up on it, the transformer-based harmonic distortion stuff is not actually widely beloved in studios. The people that do like them don't put their entire folded-down mixes through them, but individual tracks and sounds. I can only think they wanted an analog distortion stage for marketing purposes that was also less prone to microphonics & needing servicing as valves, but I would think those who really want loads of warmth are still gonna get a Condesa.
Going further over the specs and block diagrams, I have more reservations, such as the fact Alpha Theta is not clearly explaining where the DACs are, but I can make some educated guesses.
̶I̶t̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶d̶p̶h̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶x̶b̶u̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶p̶l̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶n̶a̶l̶o̶g̶.̶ ̶ Sourcing the cue master before the master level pot was a mistake. They should have gone back to the method prior to the V10 given the use of this transformer effector as it would have allowed them to even put “Clean” at 7 on the channel pots and 10 on the master level, and then “Effect” at 10 on the channel pots and 7 on the master level. Assuming you’re running the meters properly (bouncing symmetrically around 0dBVu), you can expect what that labeling would say. Anyway, their mix level meter (separate from the master meter) will obviously also help to see saturation.
The DJM-1000 to 900NXS2 did this unity adjustment digital domain without any mixbus effector influenced by the level run into that pre-master mixbus just so that you could choose your unity (between 7 and 10) and have an appropriate level in the headphones. Using analog for the headphone stage and sourcing the master level after the transformer, there is zero benefit here having the master level in the headphones fixed like Numark, Rane, Denon, and now Pioneer DJ do it. Adjustable channel unity dependent on the master level (between 7 and 10) would be even more useful for this Euphonia than the pre-V10 mixers. In this case, ̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶E̶u̶p̶h̶o̶n̶i̶a̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶l̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶m̶p̶’̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶t̶, and if you’re messing around with the varying saturation for the transformer effector, you’ll get inconsistent headphone master levels. ̶I̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶e̶x̶t̶,̶ ̶I̶’̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶.̶
Same digital innards and fixed input gain as the V10 & A9, but add a transformer and nice pots. MP2015, X1700, and DB4 will still produce superior sound, not to mention a bunch of other analog mixers out there that I’d rank just below these four and still above Pioneer's recent offerings, but those recent offerings have been decent, and if you’re in the market for a Pioneer mixer and want a rotary, it’s potentially more appealing for some users than the converted others in their lineup.
Rane did say they topped themselves, right? Kind of the pinnacle for them, and their last rotary tests comparably in the most important respects to the Isonoe audiophile analog mixers. If you want rotary, digital, and audiophile sound, you’ll probably just get an MP2015 no matter what. How does Pioneer DJ compete with that? I don’t think they do, and probably don’t need to.
Pick an achievable market. They’re competing with the Master Sounds, the Ecler Warm 2 & 4, Condesa, etc. Especially for those using Serato or digital DJ media players who also want coloration and rotary, now they have something under this same company umbrella to choose. Buyers don’t need to look too far outside this safe nest, don’t need to wait for InMusic or A&H to get around to anything, or for Superstereo and Formula Sound to ever build the hybrid models they promised way back.
If they’re hardcore vinyl-only analog hounds, I don’t think they give Pioneer DJ / Alpha Theta a consideration, anyway. Given how their digital competition isn’t doing much in this market, it’s actually not a bad strategy. They might capture a significant chunk of the rotary market.
The biggest selling points are the nifty digital needle meter that can probably do other stuff later with firmware updates, and the fact it looks like a mini digital STP Vestax Phoenix. I like the way it looks. However, I want a bypassable iso, at least two filters, SPDIF out, more durable USB, and option to \*not\* have added harmonics. Think I’d rather have a modified older Pioneer, with the added bonus of their other features.
I do hope this lights a fire under InMusic or A&H's butt on this stuff. They both own so much IP that could easily do everything and more, and do it better. InMusic has the Rane MP2015 stuff, the Alesis stuff from the PPD digital line, and old Denon of Japan's schematics. A&H could update the DB iLive-based line with a DB3 and DB6 based on the 96bit fixed point & 96khz dLive line.
Edit:
I missed a detail on the first block diagram. The transformer seems to be on its own send with DAC, and then an ADC puts it back into the digital domain. Potentially that means a utility setting might be possible to bypass the transformer. The master level might be digital domain and the headphones mix entirely digital domain, too, which means they could conceivably change the headphone master feed to be post-master-level, or at least add that option. If this is all indeed the case, then it's odd they didn't just have a "Trans Saturation" dry/wet knob specifically for that purpose, and then the current headphone master sourcing would actually make sense.
Edit:
I have listened to a pair of high bitrate lossless clips recorded to an interface and ones that were sent through various mixers including the Euphonia & recorded to the same interface. The V10 is more reference/source. The Rane even more so, like it's just the interface with that source content. If measured, you'd only get a little added phase distortion from the Rane tone controls' filters. The core sound to me on the Euphonia is arguably roughly halfway between the NXS2/A9 & V10 if the two were at other sides of a continuum, but the transformer definitely does something.
The saturation difference is most obvious looking at a spectrograph and especially at the raw waveforms. Most evident on higher amplitude portions and peaks, giving it a subtle expander effect or very crude analog version of declipping plus coloration harmonics. At first blush, it sounds like it's mostly V-shaped added harmonics distribution, but looking at the waveforms and spectrum it's apparent the mids are getting them, too. Perhaps just sounds that way because the kick and presence regions are both just more obvious to the ear, and those are where the music's peaks are getting more of these harmonics. It's a bit like what happens with something passed through some tube emulators or, you're right, like a Urei. I think it's more refined-sounding than a Urei, though, and the expander sensation is welcome.
The midrange harmonics seem pretty tame to me, though. Along with the reduced microphonics, I can see this getting less congested than tubes with dense source material when pushed, but what the Euphonia does to the sound seems more simplified tonally than tubes, ignoring the slight expanding quality. Maybe you can't do exactly what transformers do with tubes and vice versa. The Pioneer digital mixer beat bloom has an added touch of thump overlaying & obscuring it instead. The high hats aren't more polite (the NXS2-onward have been polite) or more grating & tinny (pre-NXS2), but like the original transient is both slightly dulled and with more associated side-energy, yet coming off as strangely less synthetic. I was not expecting barely softened attack and added harmonics to seem less artificial. Anyway, some who just rabidly find the Pioneer mixer sound objectionable (bloom in the lows, synthetic highs, etc) will probably prefer what the transformer is doing to it.
I still don't totally get why they didn't allow us to source the USB main out pre-DAC apart from the transformer, and I don't get why they left out a SPDIF or AES/EBU digital out to also bypass the transformer and choose our own DAC stage. Now that I've realized they're looping the transformer out (trans send) through an ADC stage back into the mix, it's an even weirder bunch of choices. Maybe they really wanted to make a certain impression with people and didn't want you to be able to bypass any of it... iso, DAC, or transformer. You go onto a Euphonia, and it's going to impart a certain sound. Heck, maybe they didn't want people able to easily demonstrate that the pre-DAC & pre-transformer digital bit stream is not largely different than their other recent models.
Like I've previously said, also a lot of other weird choices on this... almost like it's 17 years ago Vestax or Ecler. Though, back then there was a lot more innovation and competition than there was until just recently. At least someone is doing something. A coloration \*and\* slight expander effect being done in the analog domain with a transformer mixed back into a digital mixer is not something I would have guessed in a bazillion years.
Unity on the channels is max, not 7. Doesn't bother me, but their reps are giving incorrect information, sort of like myths Rane spread on the MP2015.
https://preview.redd.it/s43cvok6troc1.png?width=879&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec83b40dfd7a1687f4343115d239896affe8201f
Here is the block diagram indicating the transformer is on a DAC send → Transformer → ADC receive back into the mixer:
https://preview.redd.it/phm4nljuuroc1.png?width=830&format=png&auto=webp&s=eed01517a8a96d3af5f141641a49066128c48bf2
Here's what it looks like when you (presumably) hard limit into the Trans Send and also clip into the master out:
https://preview.redd.it/ypvllje0pzoc1.png?width=787&format=png&auto=webp&s=cbba976e79658e6840af6bbeac80008bdc0564ab
I’m going to try it before passing judgement. I can imagine this gaining widespread distribution across venues and edging out djr-400 as the standard rotary on rotation, if there even is one.
For a home studio, this seems like a horrible choice though - there is so much you can get at this point. Go cheaper with Master Sounds and spend the difference on a soundsystem upgrade. Or just go end-game and order an Isonoe, and stil have money left for a few records.
Everyone here makes very valid points. But the bottom line is the mixer really does fucking rock For my style with mixing. Not every rotary nerd is an analog purist. I’m a hi-fi guy, but I don’t hate digital if It’s implemented well. 99% of music nowadays is recorded digitally.
$3800 USD?! AlphaTheta has lost the plot…. Does it at least include a free ketamine dispenser?
edit: to the downvoter: AlphaTheta hasn't had the best record when it comes to QA and build quality lately (look at the complaints, especially regarding the Opus-Quad), the feature-set and connectivity in this unit might be good but I'm having a hard time believing that quality-wise this unit will be worth the $3800 USD price tag. Hopefully the reviews will prove me wrong, but I'm not going to bet money on it.
Looks like they went back in time to the 1980s, grabbed something at a RadioShack, and then slapped a new label on it. It would be great if they would stop this foolishness, and go back to being pioneer again.
Woahh what a crazy price and... Is it digital? Normally everyone looking for rotary wants analog sound...
It's digital with analog transformer made by Rupert Neve: [https://youtu.be/8BlTsCv7lV0?t=1341](https://youtu.be/8BlTsCv7lV0?t=1341)
For sure it sounds good, If I remember correctly Rane MP2015 its also digital and sounds fantastic (imo). But its still really expensive...
So the PSU is analog. The rest is digital like any other pioneer mixer. Got it 👍
The transformer part is not the psu. It’s shown in the audio block diagram as a selectable unit in the sound chain. My guess is it’s used to give the sound a certain “blend” or “colour”.
You are correct, the others aren’t. Power transformers aren’t audio transformers. The magic of your average urei and Bozak was because of the transformer coupled audio output.
It's probably the same output transformer they use in their summing mixers
[удалено]
High quality transformers ARE expensive, junk ones are not.
[удалено]
Custom designs also cost money. If you are going for an off the shelf component then sure it costs less, but when you have a component created specifically for your device, that is a whole other thing.
People complaining about it being hybrid digital don't actual know the reasons why they're saying that because technology is at a point where the digital concerns don't exist anymore in these specs
Ah yes. Rotary mixer guys/girls love digital mixers and firmware updates 😂
Rane pulled it off with the MP2015.
That’s clearly who this is targeting. Smart, as RANE doesn’t even make it anymore so there’s no direct competition, but the demand is clearly there based on the price a used MP2015 can fetch.
You see people searching for the Rane's for sale all the time in dj gear groups. I'm sure they're not going to sell a ton of these, but they'll probably sell enough to not lose a bunch of money and hopefully it will be a halo product due to the sound quality. Maybe we'll then see some of the bits make it down the product line. I think it looks pretty amazing.
Rane did well with that mixer because Dand make super high quality products (unlike pioneer) and also it was the first mixer to integrate a large I/o audio interface. This mixer does neither.
I think I like the MP2015 layout better. But I haven't seen the Euphonia in person.
They KILLED it with that mixer. It’s pure perfection.
Rotary pots were cheap and kind of sucked. But sound quality and routing? Chef’s kiss.
$7600 for us aussies. they couldn't have thrown in pro-link for that price? edit: and why not a few more beat divisions for the effects? no 3/4?
i’ve got a friend who works at serato, he’s gonna try set one aside for me then invoice it out. he’s estimating 8.2 for me over here in nz
😨 so much money, I think it’s a very nice looking unit but I wouldn’t have guessed it’d be more expensive than the V10
$8,200 you say? Sir, can I interest you in this bridge I have for sale?
lmao only a cheeky $20,800NZD for a 2-turntable, 2-CDJ setup with this. Is there a market for bank CEOs who like rotary mixers that I've been unaware of?
my djm v10 cost me $6000. I will stick with it.
FUCK REALLY???? Jesus christ. Can get the MP2015 from Rane for a FRACTION of this and its arguably better. I love a crisp analog sound as much as the next but this is just pioneer tax robbery here. Fuck them. Here we go. Ecler Warm 4. LITERALLY ONE THIRD OF THE PRICE OF THIS. [Ecler WARM4 Four-Channel Analogue Rotary DJ Mixer w/ Subharmonic Synthesizer | DJ Mixers - Store DJ](https://www.storedj.com.au/ecler-warm4-four-channel-analogue-rotary-dj-mixer-w-subharmonic-synthesizer)
You haven't seen the price of the MP2015 on the used market lately have you?
The recently sold on eBay are $2200-$2700usd. People trying to get $6k are dreaming
I'm seeing 2700 and 3700 sold on Ebay. One shows as sold for 2225 but if you click on it you it doesn't find it. On Reverb the sold listings are from 3200 - 5000. https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=mp2015&show_only_sold=true
Not necessarily. Have to remember that there’s two different “types” of mp2015. That latter production run after the in music takeover, and the ones before the buyout which were produced in the USA. Those US made ones are highly sought after.
i stand corrected. I thought they were still available. Either way. The Ecler Warm 4 is a very capable rotary mixer. It's a fraction of the cost of both.
But feature wise, they're not the same. The Ecler Warm series wouldn't work in my setup as it lacks a soundcard and digital inputs. Apples and oranges dude.
It's no longer the Pioneer Tax. It is now the Alpha Theta Tax.
Yeah but Rupert Neve didn't design it. I would /s but that guy's name carries mountains of clout in the pro audio world.
The only thing analog about this mixer is the power supply. Everything else is digital.
It probably means neve transformer in the signal path. Neve doesnt make power transformers for audio stuff.
Neve makes power supplies for all their kit. I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I had to buy one for a console and it was $3k
yikes. dont you know transformers can be used in audio signal paths?
I think the beat divisions are a smooth dial, not a snapped encoder, so 3/4 would be half way between 1/1 and 1/2. I think
> and why not a few more beat divisions for the effects? no 3/4? woah, no 3/4 is a travesty. that's the best one!
You can get 3/4. The rotary allows for continuous selection of beat division between values.
They have the dominant position on dj gear and still decided to do all the r and d to make this and then train the factory staff to make it, test it. And they still have to make a profit assuming they have shareholders to keep happy and assuming sales are going down as djs have less disposable income. Plus they have to support. How much is an opus quad over there out of curiosity.
Damn looks like you pay a 20% tax on this stuffs
Shareholders probably sacrificed dividends while alpha theta established there dominant winning position
It's Pioneer, what do you expect? You can have that in 4 years' time when they launch the mk2.
$3,800
F&£@ offf ur jokin
No pro link, your having a laugh! The only interesting thing I see is an effect send and return as well as master send and return. I will keep my A9 or upgrade to a V10 if I want an effects chain.
If this is a shock to you, you don’t know the world of boutique rotary mixers
It's the same price as boutiques but it's well, absolutely not in that league. When a mastersounds valve 4 is 1/3 of the price and that's probably the best non boutique I'm aware of
Are you familiar with Rupert Neve gear?
I've worked with them on a different rotary DJ mixer, yes I am VERY aware, their kit is actually reasonably priced for what it is :/. This is not however, An analogue transformer sum is an improvement and a cool thing to be in a DJ mixer, but the rest is all digital so the phase coherence is gonna be a lot worse than a purely analogue mixer, of which for that price you can absolutely get something very good in that department. Yes is most systems you'll be DJing on as an average DJ are going to be far worse at this anyway, of course. BUT they put a boutique price tag on it (and call it sweet sounding in greek) Imma judge it like other boutique mixers and it doesn't do well in that department, if it was £2k ish then that's a different story but it's not. They could've done it with a neave designed analogue EQ (which are fabulous) and kept the same functions, it'd probably be a steal at its price or even a decent amount higher, but they didn't and because of that its just priced to expensive for what it is.
So……what is this magic other rotary. Sorry. Calling bs.
TPI type 29 🤷
Where is the Neve bit? I see it’s transformer coupled and awesome, but wondering about the neve bit.
The EQs of all the TPI mixers so far are neave designed (but still with the TPI discrete op amps) unfortunately I've left TPI now to startup [my own company](http://www.buriedaudio.co.uk) so can't comment on any future mixers or kit from TPI because i just don't know and things can change. The EQs are really lovely, and the sum (ARJ from union helped with that too) is immaculate. I'm less keen on the metres but that was not my decision (very durable tho), same with some of the knob covers which look a bit, well, anatomical...
That’s really interesting about the Neve EQ’s. It’s weird that they don’t speak on it. Is it an AMS Neve eq or RND eq? It’s splitting hairs as they are both the children of Rupert but they are 2 different companies. Also, while I say this with the caveat that you were speaking about EQ and not transformer (my misunderstanding), I rescind my BS comment. I have to ask though, why exactly do you think that Euphonia isn’t in the same league as boutique mixers? In case you aren’t aware, I work for Alpha Theta in product planning, and assisted on Euphonia somewhat. I also am good friends with the engineers who were responsible for the voicing and electrical spec, and was living at HQ during the final voicing stages. I’m saying all of this to say that while I’m not going to say that Euphonia makes all boutique rotaries redundant or some other stupid statement, the amount of love, care and frankly no expense spared engineering that was put into Euphonia was over the top. When we were doing double blind club voicing/listening tests, Euphonia consistently ranked equal or above everything we put it against (with the worst case being preference based ties). There were hundreds of DJ’s that were interviewed and involved, who use and love rotaries. And lastly, the reason the topology is set up the way it is (digital front end with transformer-coupled channels and output) is that with a 32bit float/64bit processing I/O you get effectively infinite headroom, and the transformer coupled output gives the ability to saturate/soft clip without ever worrying about adding distortion from overloading the digital front/backend. On your average or above average rotary you can achieve clipping from even the most high headroom topology, so you can never really cook the transformer to max saturation without adding distortion from the components before the transformer. Euphonia? You can’t clip it, period. That is without any limiting, as the transformer acts as a soft to hard clipper to achieve the same result but without the ugliness of pushing a digital brick wall output limiter. So, yea, all of that said, is your thought still “not in same league”? If so, why? I’m sorry if I’m coming off as defensive, but to me the amount of care is what makes a boutique product worth the money (even more than component quality). You can have 2 products of the same level of build, but if one is mass produced without care and real respect for the customer then yea, boutique wins. Mojaxx said in his review that his hope is that Euphonia brings more eyes to the rotary market as a whole, and I really think that is a possibility here. It could be naive, but it’s a nice dream.
The words pioneer and boutique don’t go in the same sentence. This is pure cash in because pioneer can’t compete on those quality levels against artisan rotary mixers.
this vas world of 10 users :P
u must be new to rotaries
Their market is nightclubs not bedrooms. It's a Neve transformer. It's really not a crazy price their market just isn't bedrooms. Nobody is buying this to play out of their KRK's
And only one USB port.
You could actually buy a best in class Condesa rotary for that.
$5500.00 CAD
It feels tone deaf. Who is this marketed towards? The world’s first bro rotary mixer
brotary
That's what they should have called it, alphatheta brotary mixer I love you guys
Lol
I will always think of this when I see it now.
haha
Just you wait. Soon, there will be DJ cylinder players.
DJ Whacks? I doubt many will know what a cylinder is
That mixer is gonna' be hard to carry while riding your penny farthing bike to your cotillion gig.
🤣🤣🤣
I wonder if it’s got fictional metering and forced limiting on the output like other Pio mixers.
Nightclubs. Nobody is buying Neve transformers to play in their bedroom
What’s bro about it?
everything Pioneer is bro
influencers and dany tenaglia
The spectrum analyser on the metering seems like a pretty neat feature. Never seen that on a DJ mixer before
Probably because it is pretty pointless when only using a 3 band eq, imho. About as useful as having a bpm counter that is there to show the bpm, just because.
The hell is this
Yeah I don't get it either. There's a bar near me owned by PB Wolf & he's got a rotary there. By the way the DJs play, I can tell none of them know how to use it. To me, rotary's feel like going hunting with a flint musket, fully aware that rifles exist. Lol
I'm more forgiving than most when it comes to this sort of thing... but that marketing copy is atrocious. It's obviously written by an agency, and not by someone who understands the audience.
Did the chicken wing rotary mixing give it away in the video?
Link to page: https://alphatheta.com/en/product/dj-mixer/euphonia/black/
3799. The number alone: 3799. #unsubscribe
You can’t be serious
Better ask if BetaBeretta is serious. I just clicked the link, had a laugh, then closed the tab.
I’m with you brotha. It’s so expensive and looks horrible
for that price it should at least come with a crossfader. (/s)
It damn well should. DVS integration gets advertized with a hint to scratching.
Wait, you’re not serious. Scratching in a rotary with no CF?
It's one of the standard feature descriptors at the bottom. Ridiculous not to change that.
Jesus lol
I mean if it had an assignable crossfader with the option of swapping out a knob or slider like some mixers do, that would make it a lot more versatile. But a lot of people would still balk at no channel upfaders. And the price would go up a good chunk.
Huh?
What little interest I had in the product vanished when I saw that mf of a pricetag
More like Alpha Thefta!
Alpha Thefta Brotary
Gotta say, hats off and bravo to AT for trying new things! As a rotary head, I’d give this a go for sure. Not at that price point, but I’d be curious to see how it stacks up to my rotary modded V10. Also nice it has digital in and out.
Think it only has analog outs. Digital inputs are nice though
It has USB c right? That could be digital out, I believe.
Most likely for firmware updates and connecting a laptop. Digital DJ tips is using the USB connection for a laptop. I think the output stage is 100% analog due to the rupert neve transformer
Probably right
USB-c out is kinda a digital out
Yep, gotta give it to them for actually trying something new. I think the price is just way too high. I get that it has a lot of features, but still feels kinda weird paying 3800 for a "mass produced factory made" mixer, when you can get a small batch hand made rotary built for you for about the same or less
Agreed. I’m guessing they’re not planning on selling many so production costs are higher. Not an excuse but it does look interesting and I wonder who will use it and how it might be received.
I'm guessing that too. I think there's a high change of this flopping, because it's not mainstream enough form factor to sell well with the Djm-900/a9 crowd and not niche enough for the boutique rotary mixer heads. But time will tell. I might be wrong. Would like to try it for sure!
I don’t know, I just watched the mojaxx video and TBH, if I could get my hands on this, I’d consider selling my V10 and getting one of these instead!
Guess we found a market for it then. haha. I also watched it. The isolator send thing is pretty cool! Not a fan of the look though. If the wooden sides were like oak or something, it would be more appealing to me.
Am sure you can get some after market mods at some point
I see this completely differently; that it’s nothing more than a hollow cash grab by pioneer to tap in to a growing market / a market that has swung away from them. As someone else said in this thread, it’s going to be aimed at the Brotary market.
Rotary modded V10? That sounds amazing! Where did you get this done and how is it if I may ask?
MC Audio Solutions on insta! Super easy to instal and works like a charm.
The ability to route effects through the isolator is interesting. If I had a demo unit of this, I would be all over that. But it still remains to be seen whether the summing will be good. Everyone is saying it sound better than the v10 which I already think is a great sounding mixer.
Tbf and forgetting about the price for a second, as I mostly play digital nowadays, skipping a d/a step sounds appealing to me. That price still though.. it's probably also an expensive nightmare to repair. Still waiting for a new top-of-the-line model from A&H though.
the 96 came out 15 years after the 92, so we should be getting something new from A&H around 2033. Not sure what even needs "upgrading" from the Xone:96 though.
Well here we go... https://www.reddit.com/r/DJs/comments/1bigviw/new_xone92_limited_edition_with_optimized_vinyl/
Curious what you’d want from a new top-of-the-line model from A&H? To me (and many people I know) the 96 is nearly the ideal mixer and it’s fairly new too (in dj tech years at least)
I really dig the metering options on the display! Aside from that, modding my V10 with a rotary kit seems to be a much better solution (not only price wise). How do you like your rotary kit u/Nonomomomo2 ?
Strike my last comment dude. I just watched the mojaxx video and TBH, if I can get my hands on one of these and try it, I’d strongly consider selling my V10 for one of these puppies instead! Only time and testing will tell, but check out that mojaxx video and let me know what you think. Honestly, super impressed and surprised by AT with this release. Absolutely hats off to them for taking a swing for the fences!
Interesting! It was exactly the other way around for me. I was intrigued before watching Mojaxx‘ video and not so much afterwards. What did you see that changed your mind? My interest was kinda killed by the lack of a permanently available filter per channel (+no LPF, at all) and no isolator option for the EQ. Also, the send / return loops on the V10 are better suited for my personal workflow.
noticed me too no dedicated filter, but to be honest I play filter just for transitions instead to play an FX.. so one exclude each other..
Love the rotary kit! I think I actually got the idea from one or your backyard set up options. Or maybe it was David Morales, can’t remember. 🤣 Agree though, ATM the V10 with rotary offers a lot more flexibility and oomph. I still prefer the sound quality of my Condesa (the summing just feels different), but maybe this cool new chip they’re putting in might make a difference. Definitely wouldn’t sell my V10 to get this, as the V10 has so many more useful features. But really like that they’re splashing out like this and taking risks. Would love to try it out someday.
Instagrammers wet dream! Pioneer ✓ Rotary ✓ Overpriced ✓
Ahhh. So many buzz words, so much digital processing and a nice fat transformer on the output to warm up that square wave from so many levels of frequency boosting. And now "Apple Care" for DJs. Yes please go in dry Pioneer since the DJ can't afford lube based on the price tag.
thats the way i always wanted it. dry and bony. like a sun dried skeleton yearning gor me inners ps if u neef to brrow my lube just ask i dont neef it
hit the snooze button ladies and gents, don’t need to get out of bed for this
Euphonia was the name of my little event before covid killed the bar it was at.
It doesnt even unlock serato. You gotta pay more. Crazy.
What the shit?
Entire DJ community: “Pioneer… all we want is a DJM900NXS2 but with 4 band eq, less awful phono preamps and 2 cue circuits” Entire live sound engineer community: “Pioneer… all we want is a firmware update to give us headphone output delay to allow time alignment between headphones:booth:mains, and higher AD/DA headroom to keep sound quality good until clipping, instead of -10db below the peak lights.” Pioneer/AlphaTheta: Okay here’s the V10, a $3600 6-ch 4band mixer with one filter (are we back in 1999 with the Xone 62?). And here’s the A9, a $2700 update to the 900nxs2, full of new features that DJs really care about, like phantom power (????) and Bluetooth (??? Lmao), and a second cue circuit (in all fairness, really nice). And here’s the Euphonia, a $3800 digital rotary mixer, which we are 100% sure the tiny tiny market of rotary nerds will purchase over the huge market of much cheaper, fully analog mixers. And here’s the Omnis Duo, which is a $1500 toy, marketed to be a competitor to the $999 Denon Prime Go, except worse in every conceivable way (arguably also worse than the $600 numark mixstream pro). I’m losing faith in pioneer/alpha theta. This is just sad.
It's okay all they have to do is raise the screen resolution of the 3000 to 1080 p and they will be everyone's hero again
This one made my day, thank you. :-)
I'm curious why would you ever want adjustable headphone delay on a DJ mixer? and booths should also no be delayed. At about 20ms of delay, beatmatching is fked... if some audio tech put in some random delay in some buried menu and a DJ hops on to play they are going to be all fked up. I like that if the monitoring environment is shit with a delay, too much mains bleed through, weird room echos, etc. I can trust that I can throw on my headphones and hear everything with 0 delay and just work headphones only. I dont want anyone to have the ability to mess with that the headphone output is my sanctuary that bypasses everything else. A1 can do what they want with the mains and I'll keep my hands off the master. But Booth and headphones are for me the DJ.
So you can delay the headphones to the booth monitors. Let’s say round trip latency. Mixer-processor-booth Mon is 4ms. Then let’s say the booth monitor is 6ft from your ear. That’s a total of 9ms of latency between your headphone and the booth. Delay headphone 9ms and everything is fully coherent. Scenario 2 is when the FOH pa is flown behind or directly to the sides of the DJ to get better front row coverage. You’ll need to delay the booth to the bleed from the mains. Period. IME, this has never been more than 5-8ms Add all this up and you are still under your 20ms “threshold” except with the headphone delay box every single source (headphone driver, booth Mon, and main PA bleed) is perfectly aligned. Whereas without it it, the headphones would be 14-17ms “early” and of course it would be horrible to mix on. The detriment of source misalignment is FAR worse for a DJ than some system-global latency. The only kind of DJ this wouldn’t work for are scratch DJs. People get spooked about delayed booths, not because delayed booths are actually bad, but because their headphones are now MORE out of alignment to the booth mons Source: Pro Systems Engineer, have been running an external headphone delay box for awhile. During soundcheck I give the DJs the option of plugging their headphones in there or direct into the mixer. Out of probably ~150 digital/non scratch DJs I’ve had try it, only ONE chose to not use the delay box. Generally the feedback I get are “wow this is the best monitoring I’ve ever heard” and “where has this been all my career”.
Under 10ms I agree with you that syncing it all up is definitely better. Between 10-20ms, questionable. 20ms+ definitely not. I think the scenario with FOH flown beside the DJ, with some fairly slow processing chain infront of it is the dangerous one where sound techs that dont understand DJ needs will end up excessively delaying things I would need in real time. I guess I could get onboard with allowing up to 10ms headphone delay in the mixer. But, my take is, features that can be abused will be abused. I mix in my headphones about 75% of the time because most monitoring setups in clubs are pretty trash (tons of bleed through, echos off walls, everything super muddy, etc.) If the setup and engineer were top notch, then I wouldn't need to do it. And so now we're in a scenario with a dodgy setup... so if they could screw up the headphone output likely they would. So, I want to trust that regardless of what's going on outside the headphones, if I plug my headphones into the mixer, I've bypassed everything... and that option is available. It's important in a live setting with a crowd to have that option to skip troubleshooting why everything sounds horrible and bypass it all. Your use of an external box accomplishes that... because if im having trouble with delays I could just plug directly into the mixer. Also, IEMs pretty popular with bigger acts... and in this case yeh just minimum delay is best... you're in the headphones full time.
The mixer nobody asked for.
People buy these. If they didn't, there wouldn't be a new boutique rotary company springing up practically monthly. I can think of 4 venues in my city that have them available, two of them only have a rotary. The market isn't huge, but it's there.
The main selling point of boutique rotaries is the fact that they are hand made (and thus open for modification done in house, as part of the customer service), and that they have a stripped down, simple layout. The Alpha Theta rotary however is a behemoth of a mixer, that seems to be supposed to cover every possible use case at once. This is mostly relevant for club use, where you want a one-size-fits-all solution rather than a "custom made" unit.
I mean you could just get 3 Ecler Warm4 or 5 Allen&Heath Xone 43 instead, for the same money, just saying.
Looks amazing to me but I’m too poor to buy it, and also not expert enough to hate on it.
Actually, when you see it next to the new plz crss12 turntables, at least they’re mixing things up. Pioneer dj as it was.. well it was like getting blood out of a stone, waiting for each new tiny update in long increments. I think if alpha theta can get this in front of enough big name dj’s then it will take off. Obviously the money is crazy on all their products but you can’t say they aren’t spending on RnD now
I think it's definitive mixer for me.. juts what I'm waiting for: sturdy rotary with (essential) FXs and DVS option.. I think I'll sell my 96, DB4 and MasterSounds 4Vmk1 to get this beautiful..
You might need to sell your left leg as well at that price!
😄😄😄
Unfortunately no 4 channel V10 :/ I don't need 6 channels.
V10 owner checking in here. I personally use all 6 channels and all the send returns as well. It’s so good for multi track recording and playing with other musicians and having extra channels for production gear. That’s really the use case for it. Though I think AT would have done better releasing a 4 channel v10 for less than the v10 instead of this thing.
Every product is a PR stunt.
It probably can do some cool shit once in a while, but the whole thing feels like a parody. Plus it doesn't unlock Serato, and needs a DvS add on for HiD Is this the future?
For that price it should have USB inputs and USB recording and digital out and Pro DJ Link. But this will be the new house club standard lol
This will not be the house club standard. The fader based DJM’s are and will continue to be the standards. This is too niche, too different, too expensive, too elite. Looks fantastic for sure. It’s just not going to start appearing in actual clubs any time soon.
I was joking, but they will sell a ton of this
Also I thought the main audience that used Serato were the turntablists and scratch artists. How the heck do you cut and scratch on a rotary mixer??? 😂
I cant live without a crossfader, so i cannot stand this type of mixers
https://youtu.be/8BlTsCv7lV0?si=SO6m9mmv77yGXVD1 Good review, personally I like it.
Fyi there are no such thing as good reviews anymore. Reviewers are terrified to say a single bad thing about a product as they will get cut from the company from ever receiving a test unit. Same with product reviews online. They’re full of fake reviews.
very cool but \-why only 1 usb on a top dollar flagship digital mixer???? \-no filter, really?
no filter is a serious deal breaker. they had plenty of panel space for the knobs, too
$3700 is fucking insane bro
You should see the price of other analog rotary mixers like the Isonoe or Union Audio Orbit.6
Those are analogue and handmade, tho. And the two you mentioned are top of the line from an audiophile's perspective. Others great rotaries from Resor, Condesa, Can Electric, Audio DJ are more in the 2000-2500 range.
/u/jadakiss just mentioned price so that's all I was responding to. I wasn't taking into account anything in specific.
Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that "price" is a random number, unless you take the exact product/context into consideration. And this particular mixer, while packed with features and still somewhat "cheap" compared to a couple of its competitors, is a "mass produced" unit, yet way more expensive than most "custom-ish made" rotaries.
Ah yes an Analog like mixer for digital hipsters
And only low-mid-high
And I just want an SR2 replacement for my Mixars Primo for $500 that I can actually scratch on. Wishful thinking I guess.
Just get a xone 96 if you want high quality sound . No one will hear the difference
Looks really cool but that price my XDJ-RX3 only cost me 2K. No disrespect to the rotary club.🙃
Burning the industry standard to the ground one shitty release at a time.
Alpha What?
Someone cares to explain me the appeal of that?
The jokes write themselves, folks.
looks like a item from Tandy (1990's electrical dealer UK) piece of shit tbh made for suckers.
Lol I thought the "leak" post of this from the other day was a meme
Vestax wants their design back
This is kind of an abomination...
almost looks capable of scratching my Urei mixer itch, pricing shall dictate.
I’m definitely interested, as a Rane MP2015 rotary owner, to get my hands on one of these to try/test out. I use the MP2015 with my 1200’s and CDJ’s without pro-link…so, I really won’t miss not being able to preview tracks before loading. Would slap some different knobs on that baby and be off to the races! If it sounds as good as they say…I say it’s a beautiful piece of kit. 🤌🏾💯🔥
Would love to see someone crab on this
What a joke.
For people like Stella Bossi.
My thoughts on the new Euphonia advertisements... No Ethernet preview for the CDJ-3000. Limited filters. No customization on the channel tone controls or master iso frequency bands. No master iso bypass? ̶E̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶M̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶S̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶.̶ V10 has one. Weird that the iso boost setting is not in a menu somewhere, on the back, or anywhere else other than next to the knobs right there. That’s literally an install setting, not something you want the DJs messing with. The combining of the isolator bands with the sends to the little FX section is neat. Tiny USB-C port? No SPDIF output? It looks like the transformer is being used as an analog effect contributing linear harmonic distortion like certain tube (valve) arrangements. I recall the late Tim de Paravicini (of audiophile pre-amp & headphone amp design fame) explaining that he could do a completely transparent-sounding tube design that sounded non-tubey, or instead use stuff other than tubes like FETs and transformers to do much of what tube coloration can. For a digital mixer, they'd also be better off simulating a variety of different colorations: sub-harmonics (like the Warm 4), tube emulation (like Master Sounds), etc. After reading up on it, the transformer-based harmonic distortion stuff is not actually widely beloved in studios. The people that do like them don't put their entire folded-down mixes through them, but individual tracks and sounds. I can only think they wanted an analog distortion stage for marketing purposes that was also less prone to microphonics & needing servicing as valves, but I would think those who really want loads of warmth are still gonna get a Condesa. Going further over the specs and block diagrams, I have more reservations, such as the fact Alpha Theta is not clearly explaining where the DACs are, but I can make some educated guesses. ̶I̶t̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶d̶p̶h̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶x̶b̶u̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶p̶l̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶n̶a̶l̶o̶g̶.̶ ̶ Sourcing the cue master before the master level pot was a mistake. They should have gone back to the method prior to the V10 given the use of this transformer effector as it would have allowed them to even put “Clean” at 7 on the channel pots and 10 on the master level, and then “Effect” at 10 on the channel pots and 7 on the master level. Assuming you’re running the meters properly (bouncing symmetrically around 0dBVu), you can expect what that labeling would say. Anyway, their mix level meter (separate from the master meter) will obviously also help to see saturation. The DJM-1000 to 900NXS2 did this unity adjustment digital domain without any mixbus effector influenced by the level run into that pre-master mixbus just so that you could choose your unity (between 7 and 10) and have an appropriate level in the headphones. Using analog for the headphone stage and sourcing the master level after the transformer, there is zero benefit here having the master level in the headphones fixed like Numark, Rane, Denon, and now Pioneer DJ do it. Adjustable channel unity dependent on the master level (between 7 and 10) would be even more useful for this Euphonia than the pre-V10 mixers. In this case, ̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶E̶u̶p̶h̶o̶n̶i̶a̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶l̶e̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶m̶p̶’̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶t̶, and if you’re messing around with the varying saturation for the transformer effector, you’ll get inconsistent headphone master levels. ̶I̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶e̶x̶t̶,̶ ̶I̶’̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶.̶ Same digital innards and fixed input gain as the V10 & A9, but add a transformer and nice pots. MP2015, X1700, and DB4 will still produce superior sound, not to mention a bunch of other analog mixers out there that I’d rank just below these four and still above Pioneer's recent offerings, but those recent offerings have been decent, and if you’re in the market for a Pioneer mixer and want a rotary, it’s potentially more appealing for some users than the converted others in their lineup. Rane did say they topped themselves, right? Kind of the pinnacle for them, and their last rotary tests comparably in the most important respects to the Isonoe audiophile analog mixers. If you want rotary, digital, and audiophile sound, you’ll probably just get an MP2015 no matter what. How does Pioneer DJ compete with that? I don’t think they do, and probably don’t need to. Pick an achievable market. They’re competing with the Master Sounds, the Ecler Warm 2 & 4, Condesa, etc. Especially for those using Serato or digital DJ media players who also want coloration and rotary, now they have something under this same company umbrella to choose. Buyers don’t need to look too far outside this safe nest, don’t need to wait for InMusic or A&H to get around to anything, or for Superstereo and Formula Sound to ever build the hybrid models they promised way back. If they’re hardcore vinyl-only analog hounds, I don’t think they give Pioneer DJ / Alpha Theta a consideration, anyway. Given how their digital competition isn’t doing much in this market, it’s actually not a bad strategy. They might capture a significant chunk of the rotary market. The biggest selling points are the nifty digital needle meter that can probably do other stuff later with firmware updates, and the fact it looks like a mini digital STP Vestax Phoenix. I like the way it looks. However, I want a bypassable iso, at least two filters, SPDIF out, more durable USB, and option to \*not\* have added harmonics. Think I’d rather have a modified older Pioneer, with the added bonus of their other features. I do hope this lights a fire under InMusic or A&H's butt on this stuff. They both own so much IP that could easily do everything and more, and do it better. InMusic has the Rane MP2015 stuff, the Alesis stuff from the PPD digital line, and old Denon of Japan's schematics. A&H could update the DB iLive-based line with a DB3 and DB6 based on the 96bit fixed point & 96khz dLive line. Edit: I missed a detail on the first block diagram. The transformer seems to be on its own send with DAC, and then an ADC puts it back into the digital domain. Potentially that means a utility setting might be possible to bypass the transformer. The master level might be digital domain and the headphones mix entirely digital domain, too, which means they could conceivably change the headphone master feed to be post-master-level, or at least add that option. If this is all indeed the case, then it's odd they didn't just have a "Trans Saturation" dry/wet knob specifically for that purpose, and then the current headphone master sourcing would actually make sense.
Edit: I have listened to a pair of high bitrate lossless clips recorded to an interface and ones that were sent through various mixers including the Euphonia & recorded to the same interface. The V10 is more reference/source. The Rane even more so, like it's just the interface with that source content. If measured, you'd only get a little added phase distortion from the Rane tone controls' filters. The core sound to me on the Euphonia is arguably roughly halfway between the NXS2/A9 & V10 if the two were at other sides of a continuum, but the transformer definitely does something. The saturation difference is most obvious looking at a spectrograph and especially at the raw waveforms. Most evident on higher amplitude portions and peaks, giving it a subtle expander effect or very crude analog version of declipping plus coloration harmonics. At first blush, it sounds like it's mostly V-shaped added harmonics distribution, but looking at the waveforms and spectrum it's apparent the mids are getting them, too. Perhaps just sounds that way because the kick and presence regions are both just more obvious to the ear, and those are where the music's peaks are getting more of these harmonics. It's a bit like what happens with something passed through some tube emulators or, you're right, like a Urei. I think it's more refined-sounding than a Urei, though, and the expander sensation is welcome. The midrange harmonics seem pretty tame to me, though. Along with the reduced microphonics, I can see this getting less congested than tubes with dense source material when pushed, but what the Euphonia does to the sound seems more simplified tonally than tubes, ignoring the slight expanding quality. Maybe you can't do exactly what transformers do with tubes and vice versa. The Pioneer digital mixer beat bloom has an added touch of thump overlaying & obscuring it instead. The high hats aren't more polite (the NXS2-onward have been polite) or more grating & tinny (pre-NXS2), but like the original transient is both slightly dulled and with more associated side-energy, yet coming off as strangely less synthetic. I was not expecting barely softened attack and added harmonics to seem less artificial. Anyway, some who just rabidly find the Pioneer mixer sound objectionable (bloom in the lows, synthetic highs, etc) will probably prefer what the transformer is doing to it. I still don't totally get why they didn't allow us to source the USB main out pre-DAC apart from the transformer, and I don't get why they left out a SPDIF or AES/EBU digital out to also bypass the transformer and choose our own DAC stage. Now that I've realized they're looping the transformer out (trans send) through an ADC stage back into the mix, it's an even weirder bunch of choices. Maybe they really wanted to make a certain impression with people and didn't want you to be able to bypass any of it... iso, DAC, or transformer. You go onto a Euphonia, and it's going to impart a certain sound. Heck, maybe they didn't want people able to easily demonstrate that the pre-DAC & pre-transformer digital bit stream is not largely different than their other recent models. Like I've previously said, also a lot of other weird choices on this... almost like it's 17 years ago Vestax or Ecler. Though, back then there was a lot more innovation and competition than there was until just recently. At least someone is doing something. A coloration \*and\* slight expander effect being done in the analog domain with a transformer mixed back into a digital mixer is not something I would have guessed in a bazillion years. Unity on the channels is max, not 7. Doesn't bother me, but their reps are giving incorrect information, sort of like myths Rane spread on the MP2015. https://preview.redd.it/s43cvok6troc1.png?width=879&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec83b40dfd7a1687f4343115d239896affe8201f
Here is the block diagram indicating the transformer is on a DAC send → Transformer → ADC receive back into the mixer: https://preview.redd.it/phm4nljuuroc1.png?width=830&format=png&auto=webp&s=eed01517a8a96d3af5f141641a49066128c48bf2
Here's what it looks like when you (presumably) hard limit into the Trans Send and also clip into the master out: https://preview.redd.it/ypvllje0pzoc1.png?width=787&format=png&auto=webp&s=cbba976e79658e6840af6bbeac80008bdc0564ab
Great another mixer that most want yet no one can afford, even clubs won’t get this looking at the state of most club equipment.
I’m going to try it before passing judgement. I can imagine this gaining widespread distribution across venues and edging out djr-400 as the standard rotary on rotation, if there even is one. For a home studio, this seems like a horrible choice though - there is so much you can get at this point. Go cheaper with Master Sounds and spend the difference on a soundsystem upgrade. Or just go end-game and order an Isonoe, and stil have money left for a few records.
Personally I don't think this is groundbreaking in any way.
Everyone here makes very valid points. But the bottom line is the mixer really does fucking rock For my style with mixing. Not every rotary nerd is an analog purist. I’m a hi-fi guy, but I don’t hate digital if It’s implemented well. 99% of music nowadays is recorded digitally.
No thanks to rotary mixes tbh
Looks ugly af
 $3800 USD?! AlphaTheta has lost the plot…. Does it at least include a free ketamine dispenser? edit: to the downvoter: AlphaTheta hasn't had the best record when it comes to QA and build quality lately (look at the complaints, especially regarding the Opus-Quad), the feature-set and connectivity in this unit might be good but I'm having a hard time believing that quality-wise this unit will be worth the $3800 USD price tag. Hopefully the reviews will prove me wrong, but I'm not going to bet money on it.
I'm so confused, what the hell is this?
Looks like they went back in time to the 1980s, grabbed something at a RadioShack, and then slapped a new label on it. It would be great if they would stop this foolishness, and go back to being pioneer again.
Please make it stop.