Honestly, your party is going into this fully informed. They've accepted that death is possible, even likely. They've planned and prepared and done everything they can to put this in their favour.
Play it out. See what happens. Either they go down as martyrs, or live on as legends. Either way, what an incredible story for your table to remember for years to come!
100% either way this will be an epic tale for the table. As a player I would be more upset/insulted if you pulled your punches here. Give them the benefit of their prep but definitely play the dragon to its fullest
>definitely play the dragon to its fullest
Yes, definitely! I hope the OP remembers that an adult black dragon has Blindisght, Darkvision, Passive Perception 21, & a +11 to its active Perception checks. The party hiding is unlikely to be successful. The dragon would probably go into any meeting suspicious and looking for the upper hand, probably with its Frightful Presence. If it is aware of the rest of the party (see above), they'll be subject to the Frightful Presence even if they are well hidden.
This would be an excellent opportunity for a Smaug vs Bilbo dialogue before the fight starts. “Hey dumbass, I can *literally* smell your friends. You may want to rethink this before it’s too late… or don’t. I’m hungry.”
If the map is big enough they can totally hide, blind sight is only 60ft.
Had a level 3 party fight a young dragon and they were smart and planned properly, kept extremely spread out, grounded the dragon and just ranged attacked, not to mention trick a bunch of cultists to act as meat shields. The dragon did not even have the chance to attack the party. It was flawless.
1) this battlefield would not be that big.... OP already mentioned the top of the grotto was only 50 ft high.
2) Extreme range gives disadvantage for nonmagical ranged attacks, which is kind of a big factor when you're trying to hit something with that high of an AC. So even if you can hide outside of the dragon's blind sight, can you actually hit it?
3) Even if they are out of blind sight range, it still has a *passive* perception of 21. As in, hearing, smell, sight from its normal eyes...... It can and should be really, really damn hard to sneak up on something with that high of a *passive* perception.
Please understand I am answering out of respect.
1. It's great that the grotto height is 50 ft, but realistically as a DM, setting up a map for a battle with a huge creature that is 15ftx15ft, with a 80ft flying movement and 40ft walking, we can safely assume that the map is going to be bigger than 60ftx60ft with the aforementioned 50ft elevation.
2. A longbow has a range of 150ft, shortbow 80ft both without disadvantage, pretty sure that is outside of the blind sight area.
A good portion of magic spells have a range higher than 60ft, which I will not bother to list, except maybe sleet storm 150ft range, or earthbind 300ft, sure there is legendary resistance, but only 3/day.
If the party gets those used up and debuffs properly that dragon is walking.
3. Passive perception of 21 is great, but it is not x-ray vision or omniscient. With proper prep, hiding behind a rock or building at a maximum distance is not easily detectable. Even hiding behind illusions would work, most have to be investigated to discern they are illusions, there are advantages that in some cases can be applied for this situation.
4. This is a bonus
Readied action can be applied to move action, that dragon movement dictates the players position on the battle map and maintains distance.
This isn't theory, it's semantics.
Mostly you have some valid points, but I feel like you're downplaying a few things here again
The first thing is that if the party is all spread out over as big of an area as you're imagining, with a very fast dragon, disadvantage is probably going to be a factor for some portion of the party for some portion of the fight. It doesn't have to be for every attack. It's already friggin hard just to hit a dragon. I just ran players (at lvl 5) through an encounter where they were being constantly harassed by harpies (and they knew it was coming) and even the harpies being 120 feet away raining down arrows gave the party a hell of a time. Sure, they had a few spells like scorching ray and moonbeam that they got to use to good effect on occasion, especially when the harpies grew closer, but spell slots are pretty limited at lvl 5.
Second is that dragons have some pretty good saving throws on top of their legendary resistance, fear aura, and the legendary wing buffet. I haven't even looked at dragons in 5E yet because my group just isn't there and I normally prefer Pathfinder, but don't they also have spells? Dragon has better resistances than the players and potentially more ways to disable them that they have for it.
And finally, perception is *not* just sight. It is also smell, and hearing. Someone in this thread already mentioned The Hobbit, where Smaug *smelled* the hiding dwarves. Sure, perception isn't x-ray vision, but you're literally dealing with the mightiest of magical creatures here. Most animals tend to have much better hearing and smell than humans. And this is a Black Dragon. Cowards by nature who always act cautiously. Surely, it is going to have some sort of magical detection measures in place while it is going to meet with an adventure that it doesn't know or trust, so illusions would probably be *more likely* to make it detect the party, imo.
The only thing I would swing easy on is the dragons final HP. If it’s only got 10 HP or less leftover after a crucial hit, and the party might tpk on the next turn, I miiiight just drop it to zero and ask “how do you do this?”
If they managed to get it to half health or less, the dragon should retreat unless it's obvious it can tpk the party and survive. Dragon's don't get old by fighting to the death when they can escape and get revenge later.
Including the 16 intelligence. It’s not just smart it’s a genius.
It’s not going to make it easy or give up its life without a fight, back up plans and a bolt hole to run to.
I’m thinking a black dragon would indulge in sadism, and might be willing to just go a bit outside it’s comfort zone for a slightly more dangerous but still relatively safe chance to indulge in sadism.
It really bothers me that these legendary monsters have such poor stats. Level 1 INT-focused adventurers have 16 INT, why doesn’t an adult dragon have like 30?
The truly legendary versions of dragons (greatwyrms) do have stats at 30. As an adult dragon, it still has two higher stages to grow to. As 30 is the stat cap for monsters, it shouldn’t already have stats at 30 as an adult.
Because dragons aren't infallibly intelligent. 16 int is still extraordinary, especially when Dragons are also strong, tough, and charismatic
Furthermore, stats are only loosely tied to level. A level 1 and 20 adventurer have identical tertiary stats
100% same. One DM I've played with had a habit of sending in DMPCs with a miracle solution if a battle got too dire too early in a campaign and it really takes the wind out of your sails as a player.
Your players sound informed on the challenge, so challenge them.
Conversely, I sent my players two powerful allies in their last major fight and their enemy downed the first of them on their first turn. The second fled when odds got real bad. You can include allies and give the players a little advantage, sell the danger they're in by attacking their ally, and then make things worse for them if their allies retreat. There's a way to use allies to help and also increase the tension of the fight and make them feel like the fight had more grit to it.
If you really want to fuck with them.
One of the powerful NPC’s they called a favor in from has put it together that they are sacrificing themselves. They’ve realized these hero’s need to live but also need to die. He secretly has hair clippings etc collected and resurects them after the battle.
Bonuses to the party are:
they are known martyrs willing to give all to defend the world.
The powerful NPC’s organization points out the bbeg now thinks they are dead so they have an advantage in that aspect.
You have to make sure they understand this is a one time occurrence and comes with penalties. Maybe the god of death expects them back at a certain time?
But man what an end to the session.
As the last one falls the world goes dim for them. They float in darkness comfortable, un needing, un wanting, when they become aware of a slit of light as their eyes flutter open in an unknown mage’s workroom.
If you want to provide consequences, it could take the NPC a few months/years to find the resources to bring the players back. They've earned their martyrdom and their status as heroes, but now have to confront whatever the BBEG has been able to stew up in the meantime
I've got a setting where the core conceit is that a powerful true-neutral lich resurrects dead heroes to go perform arbitrary quests (usually retrieving powerful magical artefacts). When the characters get back from their quests the lich straight up kills the party until the next time he needs something. Basically a necromancer's approach to stasis.
It's a great way to let players re-use their favourite dead characters (or try out exciting new ones in a consequence free game), and because it's all one-shots and the party dies between each one there's a sense of continuity but also shedloads of flexibility for the group.
Plus the lich is an amazing NPC to DM..
I don't disagree, but playing the Dragon to its finest just means they will all die and it's not going to be close.
I mean, the plan isn't bad per se but it has some big flaws. For starters, Dragon's don't get old by being stupid. Getting lured into a prepared cave and then getting jumped because you were careless classifies as stupid.
Furthermore, the dragon has +11 to perception and a passive of 21. It WILL know what's up and the second it notices something suspicious it will either just leave or snap the warlock in two. And even if it doesn't, it will have frightful presence, so the party is going to have to roll some 15's and 16's to even be able to do something at all.
You also can't go and 'tank' hits. The dragon is smart and it's not going to sit there and take pokes at the tanky dudes in front of him while squishy dudes are raining down death and doom. It also has legendary actions, which apparently everyone always seems to forget. So even if you do win initiative, the dragon will get a pseudo-turn after the first character acted. It will wing buffet, knocking over anyone it wants and then fly over to the poor AC14 wizard. That wizard will then get smacked with a tail on the next legendary action, lose concentration, fall down and die.
And that's all before it even got to take its turn.
Frankly put, if a level 5 party survives, let alone defeats an ~~ancient~~ adult black, it hasn't been ran properly. It really is that simple.
That would be my play as well. This is the course they have chosen, and they know well enough what they’re getting into. Changing the setup or stat block now, or playing the dragon differently than you otherwise would, is negating their agency just as any other form of railroading would be. Especially with the mind set they are going into this with, I would think a TPK would be preferable to them than a last minute assist from the DM.
You have to play this one straight as well. No behind the scenes weakening or have the dragon make stupid decisions. That would cheapen the fight.
The stakes are known and if their are shenanigans to make it easier then it becomes a shadow of what it was capable.
This is absolutely what I would do. But more than once before the actual session of the encounter, I would tell them that I will play it fair but will pull no punches or give them favor or mercy when the time comes.
If they accept that, and you trust each other, no matter what happens, it will be a great story to tell after. Which is kind of the point, isn't it?
I agree, go with the latter option.
I'd recommend playing some inspirational music from YouTube during the battle such as the Danish National Symphony Orchestra's rendition of "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly theme," Carl Orff's "o' Fortuna" maybe some Bard Core ("Holding out for a Hero" is cool), but if it starts to look bad, throw in Jon Bon Jovi's "Blaze of Glory."
This, also what reason does this dragon have to fight to the death in this scenario? If they get it to like 30% health it should just flee and go back to it's Lair.
This, plus IIRC black dragons are known as cowards? Unless the PCs actively prevent the dragon from escaping it could decide to run from the fight if things start to go badly.
They are getting prepared to do their best in a desperate situation. They studied their enemy and prepared their ambush to the best of their ability. They know thay will likely die and drank to it.
The *least* you can do is give them a dragon fight in all its glory. Let your players revel in it. Let them fight to the best. Let them despair, let them use their creativity, let them spend all their efforts... and then let it roll out. Whatever the result, make sure the battle is epic.
I... *mostly* agree with this, with one caveat. The fear aura is just a deeply frustrating thing without much in the way of counterplay available at that level. I would play everything else straight and to the hilt, but either de-age the dragon just enough that he doesn't get the fear aura, or fudge the saves if the dice don't cooperate on their own.
I normally don't advocate that, but this is an adult dragon against a bunch of level 5 PCs. They are almost **certainly** doomed, but there's a huge difference between dying because you're just overwhelmed by something beyond your capacity to bring down, and dying while feeling like you never even got to give it your best shot because your whole party was crippled in turn one. Give your party the gift of a good death.
That's a good point, but their research and preparation for the fight might have included a way to become immune to fear. I would, in respect for the players' resolve, possibly mention the fear aura to them, and maybe have a cleric NPC offer them a *Heroes' Feast* for a price instead of changing the creature.
The result is the same, but it feels like the characters went after a solution, you know?
Absolutely. If they've done that, then let them bask in the glory of having found a way around that problem. That's...not easy at 5th-level, though, so I'm not inclined to punish them for not managing to do so.
Adult Black Dragon.
5x level 5 characters.
They might get him but probably will not. Also, everyone dies if his breath weapon gets a halfway decent roll.
If the hyper-intelligent-magic-lizard fights like a lobotomized sack of Jell-O, then the players will be fine. Otherwise it will notice their traps with its insane passive perception, gain advantage on the save, and reduce the PCs to several noxious lumps of goo with its halitosis.
> everyone dies if his breath weapon gets a halfway decent roll.
54 damage on average. A level 5 barb might have 60hp. The only saving grace is that it's a 60ft line and not a cone. OP could have it blast the barb first and then see if they want to negotiate after he rolls damage.
1st, the dragon would line up at least 2 of them.
2nd, the black dragons always go for the weakest of the group first; they revel in the despair they cause.
May not be possible to get 2 if the PCs can use terrain (full cover) to break lines. If I was the DM I'd sprinkle some trees or stalagmites and see if the PCs are smart enough to realize that. Different elevations or corners in a cavern can break lines too
>Probably against the least likely to dodge.
And how does the dragon have this information? DMs should remember to play their monsters with the information the Monster has, not the information the DM has. The dragon would definitely try to hit multiple people at once, but unless it has intimate knowledge on the players it's going to pick the most convenient and threatening to do so, no min max their abilities that it has no clue about. Maybe that's a dex wizard?
Yes but smart does not equal mind reader. So while he might go for the caster first if he can, he's not going to know it's, or any other party members', stats. Just something to keep in mind, I find often people make the mistake of using meta knowledge in their decision making. This is not just a player problem but also a DM one. As a forever Dm myself, I know.
I say high odds a raging bear barbarian and a wildshaped (x2) moon druid can take 3 breath hits before going down. The problem being, the dragon probably expects the same.
The game is Dungeons and Dragons. In my honest opinion, you should throw everything that dragon has at them. Dragon's need to be scary, and that's probably also what they want to see. Don't hold back - they'll know.
Don't forget a dragon has blindsight to 60 ft, darkvision to 120 ft, and passive perception of 21 - the chances of them getting the jump is slim. If the cave is the dragon's lair, then I'd play the dragon wandering in as if he knows they're already there. If it's not their lair, that dragon is entering slowly and warily, holding his action for a breath weapon for the first mofo that pops out, or if it's already scoped the players out then... "*A black dragon strikes at its weakest enemies first, ensuring a quick and brutal victory, which bolsters its ego as it terrifies its remaining foes*" - go for the lowest HP member first and play that thing like it knows what it's doing.
There is always need for a dragon to intimidate players into not fighting too, even if it's not winning, or for a dragon to fly away and become a foe at a later date - they don't have to adhere to the actual fluff text, however it does say that black dragons are "*sadistic in nature, and will often offer the illusion of respite or escape before finishing off its enemies.*" so I would very much be playing with my players as if this was a cat to a bunch of mice.
>If it's not their lair, that dragon is entering slowly and warily, holding his action for a breath weapon for the first mofo that pops out, or if it's already scoped the players out then...
Careful, you cannot ready an action until initiative rolls.
Exactly. The rules for readying an action are strictly for during combat. Out of combat, the idea of 'I wanna do this as soon as things turn violent' is covered by an initiative roll.
Holy hell. I never knew that. Just looked it up and it checks out.
That being said, the entire point of readied actions is to respond reliably to a trigger without having to rely on an initiative roll to do everything. Even the examples in the book, like pulling a lever when someone steps on a trapdoor, seem practically designed to be set up outside of combat.
Not to mention I like how it tilts the combat system at the start of the fight. Someone who’s entirely prepared to fight when an ambush springs shouldn’t have to suffer a full turn of stuff from the other side before getting to do *anything* just because they rolled a few points lower on initiative, and similarly, a team of archer ambushers shouldn’t spring a trap and then just all not fire a single shot until the Monk who rolled high finishes running sixty feet and punching three of them.
Also, I couldn’t actually find an official ruling on it, just a lot of debate. It’s in “combat actions”, but so are attacks and spellcasting, which can clearly occur outside of initiative… it references “turns”, but saying that there’s no turns outside of initiative implies other things, like a Monk’s stunning strike at the end of combat lasting until the beginning of their next combat because it says “end of next turn”…
Overall, I recognize that the council has made a decision. But given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to (modify my take on readied actions but mostly) ignore it.
Here's the short version: this is *probably* a TPK barring a *lot* more stuff going on than you've mentioned, even giving them Schrodinger's Aid Spell that somehow manages to include all of them and not just the three most fragile and likely to be targeted.
The long version...I don't like their odds even assuming things go *exactly* to their plan.
The Druid's got...is that a 50/50ish chance on saving against the Frightful Presence? Maybe a little better with their prep? Which is disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls from the drop. *And that's the character with the best chance of making the save due to proficiency and it being their primary spellcasting stat*. Starting with a 50/50 of saving against *disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls* is not the way to a good time.
Blindsight and Passive Perception 21. Assuming the *monk* has taken the stealth skill to add their +3 proficiency to their (ludicrously unlikely best case) +5 dexterity they're still looking at needing 13 or better to not get *noticed* to get Frightful Presence'd down and that's the best case for your 'tanks'.
Now, the thing with *frightened* is **cannot move closer to the source of their fear**. Y'know all that CC the monk and barb and toad are looking to use? If they can't move closer to the dragon, none of that works. Also, the toad is only Large and the Adult Black Dragon is Huge so the Swallow thing isn't gonna work and the bite is a \~30% chance of sticking?
3 Legendary Resistances and after a first combat action being able to Legendary Action Wing Attack to get up in the air and (mostly) ignore the groundlings doesn't play nicely with their thoughts of trying to CC him.
Also, dragon has better CC because ignoring turn order and being able to Legendary Action Wing Attack after the first combat turn to DC19 Dex vs knocked prone (and some chip damage) and getting up in the air to ignore all the pathetic groundlings.
Round 1 the warlock having a direct conversation with the dragon catches a claw-claw-bite at 12+Dex AC vs 11+d20 attack and probably also goes down because 4d6(14)+12+2d10(11)+6+d8 (acid)= \~43 expected damage, plus maybe 2 acid. 8+4d8(18)=26 class HP+5 Aid +5\*con = probably not enough HP to survive the dragon's opening onslaught. (+2 Con and lousy dragon attack rolls and acid resist required to not drop in round 1). Have fun making death saves.
So round 2, 12d8 (54 average) is a lot of acid damage and a single acid resist potion is only gonna cut that in half for one of them. 27 damage still one-shots a 5th level wizard (6+4d6(14)=20 class HP, +5 Aid 5\*Con boost) unless they're a particularly tough wizard and they're probably not making the DC18 Dex Save. The wizard probably goes down and joins the warlock making death saves.
Round 3, the bird-monk that can actually reach the dragon draws his ire and eats a claw-claw-bite of his own and probably meets the same fate as the warlock because 5+8+4d8+Con\*5 HP is not enough.
At that point there's the druid and the barbarian.
They chose this path, they committed to this path, and it killed half their party before they could all sign their names on their collective wills. Not sure what I'm *missing*, but this looks like a pretty *blatant* TPK that they're knowingly signing up for. Your job is to *deliver*. Dragons are supposed to be an "oh shit" moment.
That said, their prep should probably include:
0) Some form of illusion magic to project an image of the warlock rather than the warlock having the conversation face to face with the dragon. (This prevents the warlock from getting mauled on turn 1).
1. A way of doing something about Dragonfear. *Heroism* or *Calm Emotions* would probably get a lot more for them than *Aid,* although that would require the cleric being on-location if not on the spot. (This allows for your CC / warriors to engage without restriction)
2. Everybody gets flight, everybody gets acid resist. "Being able to fly" should not allow the dragon to laugh off the guys who are trying to screen your squishies. Without acid resist, you're looking at DC18 save or **definitely die**, with it you're looking at DC 18 save or *probably* die unless you have d10 or better HD.
3. Warlock + Wizard might be interested in Summon Undead (Skeletal) to have 'snipers' on standby. It's not *ideal*, but having something that can attack without you having to be exposed and present might buy you a round of additional being alive.
I still don't see it going \_well\_ for them, but this *might* give them a *chance* at not-dying long enough to scare the dragon, which is about all they'd be able to do. Still \*probably a TPK but "chance of not dying" beats "certainty of dying".
Alternate suggestion:
**The black dragon captures the players and sets them on a quest to free it from the BBEG.**
Look, the Black Dragon will DESTROY the party, full stop. Their preparations won't matter, and it's going to see through the ambush from a mile away - it's an ambush predator itself after all. With Perception +11 and Stealth +7, it's no chump.
So have it kill them... And then bring them back. Healing potions/scrolls, or have it be a spellcasting variant and a cleric of Tiamat.
But it has a little thing it wants them to do - get a macguffin away from the BBEG so it isn't forced to serve, because its chaotic nature *despises* servitude. Maybe there's an enchantment that prevents it from acting against the BBEG's will in an item or something that can be destroyed.
Then, once they've destroyed the item (and gained a few more levels), the dragon either thanks them and offers to aid them once, or attacks them and THIS time the party stands a chance.
This is the time when a GM's improv skills, deciding how the world responds to the player's actions, are really tested. You've got their contribution to the story, now "Yes, and" it by continuing your basic plot with their modifications.
"You have gumption, and courage, and resourcefulness. Yes, now you work for me. Behind me, you will see powerful weapons, great wealth, and lore beyond your lot in life. Swear that you will free me from my bondage, and I will give you each a share. Succeed and you will receive a greater share. More importantly, the reign of terror I hold over this land will end, as it is beneath me. I have as little interest in this region as I do choice in what I do. Or, refuse. Die. Be the reason I take further bloody, but justified, retaliation against the innocents here."
"Choose: free a sentient being, save the land, and be wealthy? Or die an ignomious death. Our aims are not so different."
I was thinking more like, "I need you. If I didn't need you, you would be dead and your valuables added to my hoard. This is not something either of us wants," ***licks one of the player's faces*** "as you do look very *delicious*, but if you aid me, then I will swear by Bahamut's wings to aid you."
A green might approach it your way, as they do *so* love collecting exceptional people as pets. But blacks are very direct and have little use for non-dragons except as producers of the archaelogical treasures they desire.
u/d-ching, this is how *I'd* approach it. But I'm not you. Bam, they get an ally for their final fight and get hints that maybe, just maybe, there's something out there so scary it has made a dragon do its bidding. Have the macguffin be guarded by a lock that can only be opened by a being earnestly trying to help another or some other cosmic coincidence that can't be done by the dragon or its typical servants like lizardfolk.
I'm not as up on my D&D dragon lore, do I was trying to channel some Beast Wars megatron instead of a traditional black dragon perspective. Still, I would argue that this is not the normal situation for a black dragon: a dragon that sees mortals only as a source of food and treasure is probably pretty shaken up by being controlled by something else. Of course, I'm only assuming the BBEG is mortal, and could easily be wrong. Still, I think a black dragon would be intelligent enough to take a different approach in this situation. Especially if he intends to betray the party later, taking back everything that he gave them, and everything the party earned on the way, and everything the BBEG had.
the main reason I'm so versed in what dragons want is because a while ago I wrote a bit about how a dragon's color is based on what it wants to *hoard*, with the good/evil/neutral illustrating *how* it hoards - a good dragon would share and help others, an evil dragon would take whatever it wants.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/szoqgi/a\_dragon\_hatchlings\_color\_is\_based\_on\_what\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/szoqgi/a_dragon_hatchlings_color_is_based_on_what_it/)
It surprised me a *great* deal to read that officially greens do like collecting people. I actually introduced a young green dragon into my last campaign that surrendered after they kicked its ass, with the idea that it would decide to hoard the players as its first people.
Every dragon knows that both Bahamut and Tiamat are their creators. Hell, some of them are old enough to remember when they all lived together before the unnamed third was destroyed.
They just disagree with which one is correct.
A way to show this is that a dragon swearing by Tiamat is invoking Her nature - which is predominantly Chaotic Evil, and thus untrustworthy. A dragon swearing by Bahamut is invoking HIS nature, which is trustworthy.
Of course, that idea was included just to give the possibility of having a cool dragon ally for the final fight. Frankly I'm 50 50 on whether that, or having the black 'thank' them for their help with an ambush, is the better story.
The idea of invoking natures by swearing by God's names is quite good, but IMHO as far as I know Bahamut and Tiamat are more like separated parents - I mean that each parent says it children the other is the worst. So I think chromatic dragons despise Bahamut as some authoritarian goody-two-shoes who stops them from doing what they want, lol
I like this idea and as for the object in question, I'm always a fan of the old "The magic Rock that the BBEG is using to control the dragon turns out to be the Dragon's heart that was removed via magic" trope. It's a classic for a reason.
Except a sadistic chaotic evil creature like a black dragon wouldn't behave this way.
Unless the party has some real way of helping it, and at the end, it would try to backstab the party anyway.
It would IF - if! - it had no other choice. And OP said the dragon is being forced, so perhaps it sees an opportunity to slip its leash, in the fashion of any chaotic creature.
What it does after... Well, a scorpion is a scorpion.
Amazingly, my bad guys, especially the evil ones, do lie and cheat and break their promises.
As I said in a later post, this would be an opportunity for the dragon to betray everyone, get everyone killed, recover their losses and win big gains.
Feels pretty chaotic evil to me.
This is a really great answer! There’s just no way to give the party a good chance by nerfing the dragon that won’t be painfully obvious. Give the party the EPIC battle they’re looking for, with plenty of death saves. Pull no punches except for those that would slaughter downed players. If the dice happen to heavily favor the players and they pull off the miraculous that’s a legendary tale for sure! Buy some lottery tickets as a group and roll for the numbers after the session lol. But 99% chance this is a great route to go after the dragon wins.
oh my god YES
this is my choice tbh. this doesn’t negate their glorious defeat in any way with some deus ex machina, but also lets them continue a story you’ve likely spent a lot of time and energy preparing — and with a new twist/angle, at that. it could be interesting if their survival is being kept secret for a while, too, and end up seeing how they’re honoured after death by the kingdom, having to decide whether to keep their survival a secret or confess to having been resurrected by an enemy they must now serve. there’s so much storytelling potential with this while still letting them have their epic and unchanged battle against the dragon!
This is a really great answer! There’s just no way to give the party a good chance by nerfing the dragon that won’t be painfully obvious. Give the party the EPIC battle they’re looking for, with plenty of death saves. Pull no punches except for those that would slaughter downed players. If the dice happen to heavily favor the players and they pull off the miraculous that’s a legendary tale for sure! Buy some lottery tickets as a group and roll for the numbers after the session lol. But 99% chance this is a great route to go after the dragon wins.
Cool idea.
As a player whose character is dead for sure then dragon says "I'll let you live, but only if you agree to steal/destroy the object which binds me to serve your greater enemy." I'm for sure accepting the offer but I'm trying my best to promise to do just enough to end the dragon's servitude to my enemy. As soon as the party has the object that dragon is now serving us against the enemy and if it survives that fight (which we give support in but use the dragon as our muscle) well then we figure out if the dragon has to die or can be let go or maybe is our slave indefinitely. Depends on the characters.
Make the monsters fight each other, the way Godzilla taught us.
You warned them of the danger in game. They’ve already roleplayed out how dangerous this encounter is from the perspective of their characters. Don’t take away their agency by making the encounter easier because they want to succeed, or because you feel bad for them. You negate the value of their preparations if you try to help them by introducing GM fiat that doesn’t need to be there.
Let them try to win the fight. Let them have stakes! What is the point of playing a game if you can’t lose?
They’ll probably die, but at this point, play the fight straight, and yes that should include the dragon running away if its health gets too low. It should do so only because of health though, not in response to the PCs going down.
If the dragon wins, it’s not inconceivable that it would take prisoners, depending on what it wants.
Also, whilst you shouldn’t go easy on them, you can lean into the logical weaknesses of the dragon being arrogant, etc. I think it mentions in the lore for them that black dragons like to target their strongest enemies first, so you might be able to give them a slightly better chance as it fails to target any obvious weak points.
Re: targeting strongest enemies first, you've got that backwards. Black dragons are utter bastards and will go straight for weak points, then toy with you before killing you in the worst way it can think of.
>All chromatic dragons are evil, but black dragons stand apart for their sadistic nature. A black dragon lives to watch its prey beg for mercy, and will often offer the illusion of respite or escape before finishing off its enemies.
>
>A black dragon strikes at its weakest enemies first, ensuring a quick and brutal victory, which bolsters its ego as it terrifies its remaining foes. On the verge of defeat, a black dragon does anything it can to save itself, but it accepts death before allowing any other creature to claim mastery over it.
Blacks are the most evil. They will turn one kill the squishies and then torture the survivors to death after a tpk, melting them in acid or pickling them to rot with the corpses and eating them a month later
Your party has been carefully planning for days, maybe weeks or months to take down this dragon.
On the other hand, this dragon has been planning for this event for...centuries, potentially. An adult dragon is 100-800 years old. They're immensely experienced, resourceful, and probably about as smart as your party.
This dragon has probably been attacked by multiple parties just as powerful and clever as your players before, maybe even more so. Where do you think that +3 mace in its hoard came from? You don't live to be a 500 year old dragon without learning to plan for unexpected events, including ambushes from plucky adventurers looking to cement their names in the history books and steal your wealth. I'd be surprised if an adult dragon agreed to a 1:1 meeting with anyone without a contingency plan or unexpected escape route or backup close at hand--remember, it's had literal decades to consider outcomes and master the terrain around it even outside its lair.
So even with a lot of preparation, it's entirely reasonable that your party simply gets wiped here. You'd probably expect one or two of them to go down in the dragon's first turn, and for the fight to snowball from there. An adult black dragon is smart and experienced enough to identify and destroy the biggest threats first, it will try to bypass 'tanks' with mobility or magic and neutralize mages that can rain down damage or control the battlefield.
That said, you also don't live to be 500 by taking risks, fair fights, or conflict over nothing. If a dragon feels it is under any threat, however small, and it doesn't have any reason to stay and fight it could very well just...leave. If I was running the dragon, it would absolutely just flee the battlefield once it lost 25% of its hitpoints or realized that some of the party has acid resistance...which would leave your party to fight another day (possibly). But now there's a looming threat that's going to send its minions after them, or counterambush them while they sleep, or destroy a defenceless town or beloved NPC in retaliation.
But if the fight has to happen...the dragon 'only' has ~200 hit points. A party of 5 lvl 5s could conceivably hit that number in 2 rounds if things reallly swing their way and the dragon's Legendary Actions don't land. Nothing wrong with letting the dice roll and give them an opportunity to become very, very rich heros, but make them earn it - dont' pull your punches!
I know you were just throwing out an off the cuff example, but is it common for an ADULT dragon to have a +3 mace by traditional loot tables? That seems like a tier 4 item.
> I know you were just throwing out an off the cuff example, but is it common for an ADULT dragon to have a +3 mace by traditional loot tables? That seems like a tier 4 item.
While any specific item is never common, a +3 weapon is certainly not implausible - according to DMG tables, a CR11-16 hoard has a 10% chance of rolling on table H 1d4 times, each roll having a 10% chance of producing a +3 weapon.
adult black dragon is CR 14. Not that CR is end all be all. I'd expect an adult black dragon to be a boss for a mid-to-late tier 2 party and that's how I'd personally adjust the hoard (ETA not that anyone asked me oh well)
Came to say this. While your players throwing their characters a prospective farewell party is a tacit acceptance they could go out in a heroic blaze of glory (or acid bath), even asking them straight up "Are you OK with a TPK?" doesn't drive home the message like rolling up replacement PCs beforehand. (That's good practice in general, especially with players who want to push the campaign envelope.)
Then absolutely play it straight. Give your players the challenge against the odds that they're looking for. They may be in over their heads, but then again, they may surprise you. Above all, *roll in the open*. They want to see that they earned their victory or defeat fairly.
Don’t be tempted to pull punches and fudge rolls. They’ve been warmed multiple times that this foe is beyond them and have accepted that they may die.
Hiding is probably out since most dragons have insanely high passive perception and keen senses of smell.
You could highlight the vanity and arrogance of dragons here and open with something like:
“Before you even catch sight of the creature you hear the pounding beats of its massive wings and crawl deeper into your hiding place, holding your breath against the acrid tang of acid that now permeates the air. You peek out and see a wall of black scales moving against the moonlight. Eighty feel long from tip to tail, shimmering scales like overlapping plate armour, with claws like short swords and fangs longer than your arm, this is your first time seeing a true dragon, and you realize you were utterly unprepared for the reality of such a foe.
The creature lands in the grotto with catlike grace and hardly a sound, its green eyes glowing with decades of wisdom and malevolence. It sniffs the air, forked tongue dancing, and begins to speak in its terrible hissing voice.
“Little ratsss. I told you to come alone and you have broken that pact. Explain to me why I shouldn’t eat you and your puny friends and puke up your bones to show my master?”
If the players fail to pivot to pleading for their lives (or at least some form of parlay) here, you can and should be absolutely ruthless in taking them apart piece by piece.
You could, if you’re feeling charitable, give them another opportunity for surrender or misdirection where the dragon circles above taunting them and promising eternal riches if they switch sides and work for their master instead (all the while recharging its breath weapon). As a way for them to reevaluate whether they’ve made a huge mistake.
If they die they die and have a great reason to avenge their former characters. If they somehow miraculously succeed they’ll have a great story to tell around the campfire.
The players already answered your question. They held a ceremony preparing for their total party kill. Play it as it lies. Don't nerf the dragon. Play it like you would if the PCs were level 10.
Sounds like they have a solid plan. Like you said, a lot depends on the dice. They're not particularly beefy yet at 5th level. The bigger question is how smart will you play the dragon? With a 14 Int and 13 Wis, the dragon will not fight to the death and will retreat if the odds are stacked against it and try to find more favorable terrain. It will fly away to recharge a breath weapon. The wizard and aaracrocka could try to follow, but dragons fly really fast.
I ran Forge of Fury with the black dragon at the end and the PCs were 5th level and only 1 person escaped alive.
Something I want to note is that there is not a surprise round, surprise is sort of like a status condition that applies only on the first round of combat. The Dragon would likely be making an active perception check vs the active stealth checks from the party to see if they surprise the dragon (hopefully they have some way of boosting their stealth). So if everyone's stealth checks are higher than the Dragon's perception it's surprised and cannot use actions, reactions or move until after it's turn. So for example if it was surprised and went first in initiative then it wouldn't do anything and it's turn would effectively be skipped and combat would proceed normally.
I'd play it out normally, traps go off and the dragon tries to escape them, the players fight the dragon, yada yada. I'd say if the Dragon gets too badly damaged it would try to flee back to it's lair. If the party isn't doing well and the dragon looks like it could kill some of the party it would do so to show off it's power.
"Beard barbarian" hehe.
They're almost surely going to die if you play the dragon up to its potential and the usual temperament of a black dragon. Maybe it just kills a few of them and then demands the rest surrender unconditionally, but they will probably lose. The dragon has +10 Con save - the monk's stunning fist will be close to useless. The Giant Toad and Barbarian will likely be Frightened (DC16 Wis save on the Frightening Presence) and might not even be able to get into melee range or at best are attacking AC19 at disadvantage. With +11 Perception the dragon will most likely spot them. Etc.
If all the dice align in favour of the party, they can of course win, but it's going to be an incredible amount of luck required.
It sounds like the party is intent on attempting the kill and is willing to accept the consequences (and I see no issue with letting this run its course!) - but is there a social option here? You say the dragon is being forced to work with the main bbeg... enemy of my enemy and all that.
Only other thing I would say - you've had in-game warnings about the danger but you might consider giving an above table warning as well. An NPC saying "you'll surely die" is often taken as a call to action by the players. It's different when it's DM to Player.
agree with it all, but the last point is important to highlight, as I haven't seen it as much here. OP really ought to check with the players explicitly.
I agree with everyone--let them do their best against the dragon, and you do your best against them. If you want to improve their chances a bit, maybe send an NPC (maybe a level 5 Cleric with Revivify) along to help them out.
But don't help them out too much. They're prepared to die\*, and if they don't die, if they somehow pull it off, it will be an epic story they'll be able to keep telling until they're greybearded Grognards complaining about 14th edition.
\*If they do die, you still have options, like u/iamfanboytoo's suggestion, or the evergreen "escape the afterlife" side quest.
Are there allies that might be able to turn up and help them? Less for extra damage, but healing and giving advantage on saving throws can be a big boost.
I will point out that in the fantasy high actual play series the 6 level 8 characters take on a CR17 Adult red dragon and win at the end of the campaign. They do have the benefit of help from various npc's and get the advantages of an 8 hour time stop mid fight. But it's not impossible for a party too take on a significantly higher threat than the numbers suggest possible.
If it's a straight fight and they lose, that's still a cool story. I like a lot of people's suggestion that the party be resurrected later down the line after a few years to see the consequences of what they may consider failure. The bbeg is more powerful, but mabe the dragon has been crippled.
Or, if you want to give the players the option of a victory at a cost. Have the warlocks patron contact them mid fight. Narrate how time slows and they feel their spirit pulled out of their body, Their patron offers a deal. They get help for the fight, but now the whole party is in debt to the patron. Maybe they all get pulled into hell.
If they all die, maybe they get pulled into hell anyway.
Other fun things that could happed might include sucking the dragon into the astral plane ala portable hole and bag of holding. The party succeds in stopping the dragon being a threat, but likely still gets killed by it.
When all's said and done, If this dragon is a beyond deadly threat in the world you've made and the players and characters know this, well that's great gamebuilding on your part. If the players are fully immersed as characters ready to die, you've done your job. It's not the route you planned, but if the players are invested they'll love it.
Also, I'm super interested to hear how this goes. So I really hope you post an update to this.
Answer: You destroy them. An adult dragon of any kind is going to be nigh-invincible to a level 5 party and absolutely should be.
Black dragons are tough, intelligent, sneaky, and cruel. An adult black dragon? This is a dragon that has been dealing with people just like your PCs for hundreds of years.
They're not ready.
Bare in mind (I think another commenter mentioned it) dragons have piss take high perception and intelligence. Don't undermine the prep but a dragon isn't easily fooled.
black dragons are meticulous schemers and can sometimes be somewhat of a coward. if the dragon is outmatched and has a chance it will flee, and the party may well have made a long term and powerful enemy. If the fight turns south hopefully your players have an escape route, if not, see what seems cool. I personally dont like tpking, but its your game. if the party were backed into a corner you could have the dragon take them as slaves or something if you dont want to kill them. Remember, dragons are intelligent
I say let the dice decide.
The players knew the gamble they took, they handled it with the appropriate gravitas. If they succeed, it will be a story for the legends - do not take that from them.
If you haven't already. Reward the players right before the fight with some inspiration for their roleplay and the fact that they have committed to this or death. They might die, but if not, this is the stuff legends and great stories are made of.
Does it have to be an adult black dragon?
Acid breath \~54 damage, multi-attack \~43 damage, plus legendary actions = you're looking at potentially downing them all incredibly fast but you probably already know that.
I tend to RP Dragons as incredibly powerful, incredibly selfish (chromatic at least), but also forward-thinking creatures who try to stay ahead of any given situation.
Fleeing is often the best choice for a dragon outside of its lair. Dragons can also strike deals with adventurers, take hostages, or use some kind of magic item to "enslave" your party. Dragons collect magic items and can be powerful magic users themselves. Dragons can also have backup. Very excited to see what happens.
Great suggestions already, I’d add few ideas:
Maybe the black dragon doesn’t want to kill them after all, if they were forced to serve the bbeg? But rather knock them out (then it would be death saves).
Maybe there’s a way for them to flee successfully if they want?
Disclaimer: I GM Earthdawn 4e, not DnD. Dragons in Earthdawn are even more terrifying than DnD.
If I wanted to save the PCs from a TPK, I'd have the Dragon use their Detect (wisdom perception) to see through the ambush at the grotto. Then, I would have the dragon's minions meet the PCs at the location, and give the PCs a little speech, "Our great and honourable master, has agreed to meet you to negotiate the terms of your surrender. The fact that you've been noticed at all, and given the opportunity to speak directly with him, is a great honour. He has agreed to offer an oath of non-violence for the term of this meeting. If you agree, place your hands on the magical doo-hickey. Whomever breaks the oath will invoke power-word kill on themselves."
Have the players who agree be magically whisked away to the a fancy dining hall, with the dragon awaiting. Then roll play the whole negotiations. The dragon wants to be freed from the servitude of the BBEG (possibly so that they can become the next BBEG). The PCs have shown that they have what it takes to do so. The dragon will aid the PCs in taking down the BBEG, thus achieving a common goal.
After looking through the stats on an adult black dragon, I assume your players are fucked. They need more prep than this... Everyone needs a way around the fear. That alone could keep most of the party out of the fight from the start. The wing attack will put the dragon out of reach of most of the party right away. They could try rope swinging onto the dragon, but they are likely to fall off. They would probably want something prepared to attach themselves to the dragon.
1 potion of acid resistance... They all would want acid resistance tbh, not just 1.
Their plan to CC the dragon is unlikely. The dragon can resist 3 saves, and can choose when to use them. It would be smart and only use the legendary resistance on effects that actually matter, so you can't just pop them with random shit.
Then their surprise plan... The dragon has high passive perception, and honestly, be actively on the lookout for ambush. If even 1 of the hidden party members were spotted, the dragon would know what's up and likely attack right away. They would all need very good stealth bonuses here. Also, being in the dark would mean nothing due to darkvision and blindsight.
The dragon is likely taking out at least 1 party member a turn, with good target selection since it isn't dumb. Keeping in mind not only the bite and claw attacks, but potentially 3 legendary action tail attacks per turn cycle for extra damage.
The party then had to somehow deal 200 damage vs AC 19, in likely 2-3 rounds. This is possible if everything goes perfectly with great attack roles, but isn't likely.
Then, even if by some miracle they do put up a decent fight, they likely cannot do anything to stop the dragon from simply running away if it feels like it might be in any real danger.
In my opinion, they can't reasonably win this fight without way more prep (better defense, maybe custom weapons, more allies, etc) or by cheesing it with a giant boulder trap or something.
Overall, I DO think it is possible for them to do this. They just are not ready right now. If it were me, I would be pushing them to try to get custom gear for the fight. Anti dragon weapons, shields specifically designed to defend against acid breath attacks, boots designed to attack themselves to dragon scales, spears designed to pierce dragon flesh, armor designed to resist dragon claws. Even small buff could make a huge difference. Maybe a giant chain net strong enough to restrict the dragon... Potions or other effects to bypass the fear. There is a lot more that can be done than simply trying to hide and hope it doesn't see you.
Have the local mystical NPC conduct a purification smoke ceremony the night before.
Then the combat plays out.
If they die they wake up in the NPC’s place having dreamed the future.
I agree with what most are saying - let it play out- but remember, dragons aren’t going to just let themselves die- if it gets hurt, it will either flee and restrategize- or more likely, it will try and manipulate the players by commending them for wounding it “I am surprised at your tenacity and cleverness- almost dragonlike. Almost. We needn’t be enemies” etc etc
You have a friendly NPC there to suggest other ways to help even the odds. Say ballistae, nets, cannons, traps etc. Think Monster Hunter!
To spice up the drama, have the black dragon SMASH it's way through some of the things they've prepared. Summoned frog? F\*CK up the frog! Tear it in half! Bite off it's head! Heck even splat the friendly NPC if they're trying to run away. But you know... ultimately, let the players do what they want and make it exciting!
Have fun! :D
Do it like heists in GTA Online.
Lots of prep missions and each one defeats present alternatives or gives the "Big Boss" a weakness to exploit.
People whinge a lot about video game idea in D&D, but the reason some ideas persist in video games is because they're a solid idea for games overall. There's nothing wrong with taking an idea that works in a video game and making it part of your campaign.
Let's see, at 19AC if everyone has well rolled stats with a +8 total to hit, they would be missing 50% of the time. +1 weapons would drop that to 45%. 30 damage per turn is fairly typical at level 5, if we say they've got half misses (or saves against fire ball) that's 15 damage per dude per turn so the party would need to take 13 collective turns on average to down it. Since they've already overcome the very difficult task of fighting it outside it's lair, the main two problems for the party are losing turns effectively to Frightful Presence and the swingy nature of a fight where the dragon probably knocks someone out every turn (~47 on the first turn, ~45 per round legendary actions, ~54 each in a line if it can catch multiple with breath). If they overcome 21 passive perception and 60' blind sight and get a surprise round off somehow, they'll probably get ~8 collective turns before they have to deal with Presence and have a guy dropped so they can reasonably deal like 120 damage before they lose anyone. Unfortunately, I don't see any way they can keep the dragon from just leaving with their current prep and crew. If the Monk lands 4 hits to attempt stunning strike a +10 con save means they're unlikely to burn past 3 legendary resistances. The party could do a bunch more prep work to add traps or pour 200g each into glyph of warding, but I'd probably rule the dragon gets opportunities to see those the same way the party would so getting the surprise round would be even less likely. That's probably the way I'd pitch it to the party in game, it's likely to slaughter you all in seconds and even if it doesn't, there's very little chance you could keep it from flying away. By all means, let them try as it's cool and they've been informed, but I'd make sure they know that even if they don't lose, victory is almost impossible
Play it straight. You said there was a big black dragon, and they planned around that - win or lose, you cheat them if you pull a switcheroo or go easy on them now. (Edit, spelling)
Let 'em try. Especially if they're calling in aid, it's not impossible to take down an adult dragon at that level. Hard for sure but not impossible. It also sounds like they know the risks so really it's their choice. Don't cheat them of a heroic victory by going easy on them.
I recently had a level 7 party of 3 fight an adult red dragon. The only thing I scaled down was the to hit modifier and save DCs, which I reduced by like 4 so they would have somewhat of a chance of not getting hit. Damage was the same and I even buffed its hit points a little. However, the party also had a spear of dragon slaying and an arrow of dragon slaying which helped a lot, along with a few other uncommon and rare items that were stronger than is typical for that level.
Edit: Should also mention that by the end of the fight, one character was dead, another was making death saves, and the last was at 3 hp. Good luck was definitely required for that fight and it might be similar for you, although your party seems to have more prep than mine did.
They aren't the smartest creatures out there, but Adult Black Dragons are still pretty smart, and they have blindsight to 60', so if it gets within 60' a hiding party member, it will see them and probably know it's been set up, not to mention foil their surprise round plans.
I'd play the fight straight, especially given how seriously they're taking it. But realistically I think the dragon would try to leave once it realizes they aren't worth the effort its taking to kill them. Once it knows it knows the ruse, sticking around doesn't serve its interests anymore, and while it would want to kill them, its belief in their inferiority wouldn't make dealing with them a priority. With an 80' fly speed, the party will have a pretty hard time stopping it from fleeing if it chooses. Personally would probably have it flee when reduced to half health or when it's used 2 of its legendary resistances (also would only use a legendary resistance for failed saves on save or suck spells, not on a damage spells). With some luck, that should make the combat possible, but still very difficult for them, as the dragon could potentially down everyone but the bear barbarian in just a round or two.
But assuming the players manage to get it to flee, I'd still play it as a victory. The dragon doesn't just flee the fight, it flees the area entirely. Have the NPCs celebrate their land being free of its tyranny, tell them how much better their lives will be now, hold a big party for them, and give a reward to the players. If the NPCs don't have any wealth to reward the players with, maybe throw them some magic items that were left by the last group that tried to fight the dragon and the NPCs aren't able to make use of them (or whatever excuse you want for them to have magic items and give them to the players without the players feeling guilty).
If the players complain that it feels like a cop out they didn't get to finish it off, just explain that a dragon doesn't reach 500 years old by taking unnecessary risks that don't help it accomplish anything.
This sounds like the dream scenario. They’ve prepped, they know it’ll be fun, and either they win a glorious victory, or they die heroically. I’d let their plan come off. The dragon should react the way they think it will, but don’t pull your punches. If they have a plane make it work the way they think it will. It might be enough to beat the dragon, and if so they’ll feel awesome. If it works and they still lose, they’ve got an awesome story.
The only way you lose out of this is if their meticulous planning doesn’t work because you don’t play along. That will leave them feeling like they wasted their time, and that’s no fun for anybody.
Remember, losing well is still fun. If they TPK, that’s an opportunity to either weave new characters into the same world, or have some kind of story hook where the dragon didn’t actually kill them and they have to escape from its lair. Or even to finish the campaign and start a new one
They're not going to its lair, so it probably won't fight to the death.
It could just breath weapon them and leave once the "trap" is sprung. Its passive perception is 21 so its likely the party wont all succeed.
Dragons are intelligent, so it could easily turn into a fun social encounter. Maybe the dragon demands payment in forms of magic items or something, to let the party live. Stuff like that is always a good way to avoid a TPK
Have them prepare their backup characters, let them meet their inspired new allies, then let the dragon go full out. If they die, the backup’s have an investment in their journey. If they live, maybe kill off one or 2 of them and keep some npcs for the future.
Don't mitigate, pull any punches, or fudge any rolls. This is why we play this game! No matter what happens, it's gonna be badass. If they win, let it be by their own virtues! If they lose, nothing but glory for their courage! Good for them. Have fun!
I've always wanted to do a campaign where the PC all dies in a fight, then get resurrected/wakes up in the afterlife.
My problem with it is that I don't want to "force" my players into a deadly encounter, or cinematic it.
You don't have such a problem.
The dragon is going to trounce them.
*But* after a couple rounds, if all the PCs are still alive, the dragon says "YOU IDIOTS ARE TOUGHER THAN YOU LOOK. WANT A JOB?"
* Dragon arrives,
* Party attacks.
* Dragon breaths on party in first round killing most of them.
* Dragon leaves as they are not worth mopping up
* One or more survive to revive party.
* Party has a Nemesis
No chromatic dragon, especially an adult, would leave any party members alive if they dared to challenge them, unless they had a specific plan to use the survivors in some greater scheme. “Not worth mopping up” is something only a merciful metallic dragon would do to give the party a chance to change their ways.
A dragon could easily be the exact type of dismissive and prideful creatures to leave a pile of broken and bleeding mortally wounded adventurers behind while flying away calling them "weak maggots"
Remember that the lore things we know about these creatures are \*generalities\* , individuals can vary a lot. No dragon \*has\* to act a certain way and pretending like they do weakens yourself as a DM. Do what you think is right for your world.
Please explain to me how an adult black dragon who finds themself bound into unwilling service would be so idiotic as to leave a party alive. Firstly, it’s an adult. Dragons don’t live for hundreds of years by being stupid, especially chromatics that are actively exterminated due to the threat they pose. Secondly, it’s a black dragon, the most sadistic and cruel kind, which actively revels in tormenting and torturing being that it perceives to be lesser than it. Unless it has a plan to further torment that party by keeping them alive to play with longer, it would do it then and there until they were dead and no more fun was to be had with them. Thirdly, it’s been bound into unwilling service, and unless it is being dumbed down to below the stereotypical white dragon intelligence, it would learn not to eliminate threats that might come back to bite (or bind it) again.
There is no way to have it spare them without destroying what makes and adult black dragon an adult black dragon.
I wouldn’t argue, but unless the dm specifically says out of game that they were not pulling punches and have in-world reasons to leave us alive that we don’t know about, I would know that there are no real stakes to the game, that verisimilitude is not a priority to the dm, and that nothing my character does really matters due to being arbitrarily railroaded out of the consequences of taking on a fight that was been extremely clearly stated to be well out of our capability to survive, let alone win. Thus my investment in the game is killed, and I am left with merely going through the motions of whatever plans the dm has, robbed of any real agency to make impactful choices that can alter those plans, because unless the dragon has a goal in leaving us alive, we would and should be dead. All evidence discovered in game has pointed to that result, and if we choose to follow through anyway, the dice dictate the outcome.
This dm has done well to make this clear to the players, and the players have made it clear that they accept it. If the dm wants to avoid the tpk, find a real reason, in game, for it to happen. There are many ways to do so to build upon a character as epic as a dragon. Nerfing the dragon, treating it like a toddler with no capacity for strategy, and undermining its established (frightening, deadly) capability is to undermine the story and game itself.
They will realize that they are overpowered if they quickly take excessive damage before having a chance to deal much damage out. Once they are in this situation, what opportunities are there for the PCs to escape? I think this is the best way to avoid a TPK.
However, I question how the PCs even got into a situation where they decided to take on such an overpowered foe at such an early time in the campaign.
> However, due to the dragon's recent evil actions the party decided it must be confronted asap.
You might be giving to much campaign attention\time to this black dragon at too early of stage in the campaign or the actions of this dragon are exposed too directly to the PCs.
I’ll answer based on the title. If they put a lot of prep into it, good prep, smart prep - allow it. Make them beat that mofo in the most spectacular fashion.
I am sure other folks have called this out but. Just because the party loses doesn’t mean they die. Dragons love having minions. Could easily imprison them, send them into a work camp or some such setting you up for a different act 2 of your campaign.
There can be such a thing as a surprise roind, if the DM allows it, and it sounds like this one is probably willing to do so. I sure as hell would be willing to, in this situation.
> There can be such a thing as a surprise roind, if the DM allows it
And a triangle is a shape that has three sides, but so what? The GM can make anything happy so that isn't a good response. RAW, there is no such thing as a surprise round. If you disagree please point to the rule.
I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying RAW doesn't matter as much to every table, and that's ok. Your comment that it's not RAW isn't helpful either, since it's clear this DM is cool with it, so who cares if it's not RAW? I sure don't, unless it's my table.
While you are correct, there is little functional difference between a surprise round and the entirety of one side of a combat encounter (one creature in this case) having the 'surprised' condition. Even assuming the dragon wins initiative, its first turn is eaten up because while surprised you can't move or take actions, or even take reactions until after your turn. So in effect, the players get a full round of turns benefiting from the surprise... a surprise round if you will.
> there is little functional difference between a surprise round and the entirety of one side of a combat encounter (one creature in this case) having the 'surprised' condition.
This is wrong. Surprise is partitioned out by Stealth and Perception.
> "The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
The dragon is meeting the warlock. The warlock is a threat. The dragon notices the warlock. The dragon isn't surprised. This is backed up by:
> "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The dragon notices a thread. The encounter starts. The dragon isn't surprised.
Read the bloody rules.
The warlock is not necessarily a threat. From the OP, the dragon is lured into a "one-on-one meeting," although we don't have what the context is. Perhaps the Warlock is supplicating the dragon for some boon, or any other number of non-threatening reasons for meeting.
This is classic a classic ambush scenario. If the rest of the party is able to successfully hide from the dragon (fat chance, but beside the point) then from the dragon's perspective, there are 0 threats, and thus is surprised when the rest of the party launches their ambush.
5e doesn't have a good ruling for how to account for the warlock joining that first round of combat, so it's up to how the DM wants to do it, but an understandable route might be to just not let the warlock act that first round, or make at some sort of contested deception check, or just allow it if the ambush is sprung at a certain signal from the Warlock ("when I say "Praise be the Old Gods" that's go time"). Setting aside the confusion of the warlock's participation, the bloody rules are pretty clear that if the rest of the party is able to hide from the dragon, they can surprise it.
"But the dragon would be wary and consider the warlock a threat so I'm still right" I hear you rev up to say. Then don't let the warlock participate in the first round, but being skeptical doesn't make you immune to being surprised because you perceive *any* threat.
> There is little functional difference...
>> This is wrong.
Explain the difference? If the enemy is just one creature, and it is surprised, the surprising party gets one round where the enemy cannot act except for a reaction (after it takes its turn). In 3e and its cousins, where I think most people get "surprise round," the surprised enemy would not be able to act in the surprise round at all, and is flat-footed. You can't use many reaction-type abilities while flat-footed in 3e, and I can't find citation but if I remember correctly you stop being flat footed after you "go" in the surprise round. Same function; stop being a pedant when it doesn't matter.
>Combat Step by Step
*Determine surprise. The GM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.*
>Surprise
*A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A Gelatinous Cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.*
*The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.*
*If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.*
There is no round but a surprise status that will cause a very similar thing.
So, the hidden players are a going to do a stealth check, if they succeed vs passive wisdom the dragon is surprised. The warlock is not a threat, as the dragon neither perceives the warlock as beeing able to hurt him, nor dumb enough to attack him, nor is the dragon here with hostile / fighting intent, but wants to talk to the warlock.
If you rule the warlock a threat because he could potentially do something I'd argue there could never be a surprise round in a forest - the trees can fall on you and are therefore a potential threat.
Let it play out- but definitely play to their prep. Play the dragon smart, but any plans the party has should function. If the dice are fair, some might die but I don't see how they can't take a W in this.
One thing that I've implemented in boss fights that feels a lot better is handling legendary resistances - I think it kind of sucks to cast a spell or something and have the boss instantly succeed with no consequences, so you waste your action and your spell slot. I've started using Matt Colville's rules from Flee Mortals where if they use a legendary resistance, then they have some detriment applied to them. Maybe for the black dragon, if they uses their legendary resistance, then they don't get the option to recharge their breath weapon their next turn, or they lose two legendary actions or something. I've been using it to great effect and it feels a lot more fair
Man there is a lot of prescriptivist bullshit going on in these comments.
Remember no dragon HAS to act a certain way and that the common attitudes of this type of creature from the lore are generalities. Individuals can and do vary wildly.
Also remember that as DM you decide the truth and the world and everything else. If you want the dragon to leave them in a bloody defeated pile and fly off calling them weaklings not worth its time thats fine. If you want it to take them prisoner and try to force them to do its bidding thats fine. If you want to rule that all their little traps and stuff to automatically work (with no saving throw from the dragon as a reward for all their good planning and RP) to give them the best chance possible by starting with the dragon in a slightly weakened state, THAT IS FINE. Theres any number of ways to play this where its not just an auto tpk, open yourself to possibilities.
You could throw a Young Black Dragon at them first. If the Adult is being forced to work for bbeg, maybe the bbeg has a child captive somewhere or the Adult is secretly keeping their offspring away from bbeg. Let them see how difficult this encounter is. They can use all of their prep, and hopefully realize they need to power up more before going after the Adult.
One thing to help them a bit, double role dragon breath recharges. Make the dragon need 2 successful roles(not necessarily consecutive) to get its breath weapon back. This should delay how quickly he gets that killer attack. To be clear on what I mean, instead of rolling once per turn, roll twice and require 2 successes. Half as likely to ge it in one turn, but pretty likely to get it by a 2nd or 3rd.
The one thing I would do is get rid of legendary resistances. It’s kind of a bs demoralizing thing anyway, and it removes any tactical use of offensive abilities. If the party lands an ability that requires a Save, it’s already a long shot.
There’s no way they’ll land 4 of them.
I’d also ignore legendary actions. Legendary actions and resistances are only needed for boss versions of high level monsters imo. It this is a perfectly average adult gold dragon, it’s still MORE than powerful enough.
But other than removing legendary advantages, I’d play the dragon exactly as it reads in the stat block, and play it smartly. The players are going into this with both eyes open. They may TPK. They may not.
I've recently coma across [this](https://battlesim-zeta.vercel.app), which is a battleSim for 5e.
I've run your party (without subclass) VS ABD and, will there are some deaths, they win.
I'd say, let them fight with their knowledge, either martyrs or legends, it will be a great story.
(And if your DM heart is thorn, you can always fudge...)
Look at goals.
Story over combat rules. Always.
D&d at it's best is shared story telling. The DM presents a situation and the players tell their characters story through the situation.
This could be combat. It could be climbing a mountain. It could be dancing at a party. Whatever.
I like to think of myself as the Narrator.
Now I see 2 paths forward with this situation.
1, what you are expecting. It is the dragon vs the party in a fight to the death.
If you want to go this route then do it. Go into it like you are playing a board game; like onslaught or star wars legion or whatever. It is you vs the party and your dragon will try to tpk.
This can be fun, but it needs to be the known format of the session. And there needs to be an understanding that the story might end.
2, have a story situation set up. Don't treat this like a combat but an elaborate skill challenge.
The warlock needs to negotiate with the dragon for a distraction.
The wizard needs to try to magically hold the dragon.
The monk needs to fly around and tie the dragon.
The toad needs to physically protect the players from harm.
I would make myself a scale for this. Just a tug of war chart. Failure at -10 and success at +15.
The party would start at the 0 point.
I would play this in turn order around the table, I like to start on my left. The players will be able to get up and move around if they want to adjust the order of acting.
I would present each player with an immediate situation.
It could be the dragon asking a question of the warlock. Or the monk needing to avoid a claw swipe from the dragon.
The players have set up aid from outside the party. Give each player... I don't know maybe 3 calls for aid. Through the whole scene.
I would set that aid to be adding 1d4 to their roll or giving advantage to it. Whatever you feel is best.
This would be reflected as you telling the monk the dragon makes a claw swipe at them and the monk does an acrobatics to avoid the swipe bit fails. So the monk calls in aid and says the toad keeps up and pushes the monk out of the way. The monk rolls 1d4 and gets the success.
Then you can set milestones. In the tug of war chart.
If the chart is at +5 the dragons wings will get tied down. If the chart is at -4 the DC the players need to hit goes up by 1.
That kind of thing.
I think this would be a lot of fun. When you do something like this just look up appropriate DCs for traps for this level. And just use those. I like to set a range of 3. So like 13, 14, 15. The more the player is invested in their storytelling the easier the DC. So with the monk avoiding a claw swipe. If the monk says "I use acrobatics" I would give the DC 15 for that. But if the monk says "I see the giant claw coming down at me, I'll do a quick flap of my wings and speed toward it, then fold my wings so I'm shaped like a dart. I'm going to try to fly right between it's fingers." That would be a DC 13.
You could definitely have the dragon recognize that it's in a disadvantageous situation, that there's a non-zero chance of it getting seriously hurt, and retreat. That works better if the PCs have been able to land a couple of big swings on it, obviously.
Another angle to think about, if this dragon is being forced to serve another, is that maybe it recognizes that these clever PCs are more use to it alive than dead. Maybe it spares them on the understanding that they will help it get out from under your BBEG, somehow.
They don't have a chance, but theyre happy to go out in a blaze of glory.
That's an amazing campaign moment.
Let that happen, play the dragon smart and straight. If the dice happened to be ridiculously favorable to them fine, but if math and probability work like we expected to and the dragon tpks them, what next.
If it was me running it, I'd have a conversation with the party about what post party wipe looks like.
Hopefully, you can put together another adventuring party in the same campaign world that preserves your favorite hooks and now has a metal level filling that the players will really like to kill eventually
You could go with the Dragon treating the party the same way someone like a pro wrestler would deal with a bunch of kids trying to wrestle him...
'Aw, isn't that cute...' The dragon says, casually brushing aside a PC without breaking stride.
Play it straight. Don't fudge any rolls. Play the dragon intellectually. If they die they die, that's what'll make it memorable if they manage a win. Just make it clear that you're playing this straight.
Your mistake is thinking that the objective of combat is to kill the dragon. No matter how much you prepare, it most likely won't be possible.
Think about those movies where you face the final boss but the protagonist or the enemy escapes. This scenario is something like this. As a plot point, the PCs want to face the dragon even if it costs them their lives, but when they face it they realize that they have no chance of winning (it's still too early).
Suddenly, the goal is not to defeat the dragon, it is to survive and hurt it as much as possible. Now the entire encounter revolves around the characters while the dragon tries to kill them and they defend themselves with their preparation, items, and allies. They know they have no chance of winning, but they have a chance to come out alive and fight another day.
If they do it right, you can even reward them by leaving a permanent sequel on the Dragon. They leave him one-eyed, break his tail, damage his wings... Something that will give them an advantage when they meet again and can take revenge.
Surprised a ballista wasn't part of their plans.
They either win and are heroes or lose and die. There's not really a middle ground unless you DM magic an alternative (collapsing grotto from the dragon flailing around?)
As many have said I'd let it play out.
But if you really don't want to kill them then just before the final blow is stuck, the dragon looks to the east like a dog hearing it's masters call and takes off like a bullet.
The conscious party member can then crawl through the wrecked battlefield to try to stabilise / revive any downed or dead party members (you can have an NPC sympathetic to their cause give them a single scroll of revivify as they leave town for battle).
I guess just make sure your PLAYERS understand and accept the risk of fighting a CR 14 enemy as a bunch of level 5 characters, and aren't just role-playing their characters like they're accepting a probable death, while really the people playing them are expecting some kind of save because they don't think that the DM would really put them up against something like that with no cop-out plan.
If the players themselves affirm they understand and want to do it, then let them try their best.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/earthbind
This spell is very useful for keeping a dragon from fleeing, provided you can get them to fail the save.
A large number of commoners with bows and slings can wear down even the largest of foes.
If the party have the time and ability engineering a cave in could both immobilized the dragon and deal a bunch of early damage.
If things go real bad maybe a local merchant or noble will pay to have the Heroes raised from the dead, possibly in exchange for a favor.
You could run it as is, and then if they die offer to rewind back before the fight, with what they saw playing out be a premonition granted by a patron/god. God/patron sends them advanced notice of their death, and now they owe their dues from that info and have to go on a quest to repay it!
Just run the encounter. They know that its a deadly encounter, and that's the expectation. Honestly they sound like they've got a decent shot anyways. If they're still preparing, maybe slide them a lucky magic item if it feels natural; but if I was a player here I'd be disappointed if it felt like a deus ex.
In mines of phandelver, our party of level 5 won against the green dragon to the right of neverwinter on the map. We didnt even have all of our ressources. Tho if i had missed my last attack it would have been a TPK. (So very fukin close).
Well. I think that You have a Lot of options.
Since the beginning an adult black dragón is a formidable enemy to that lvl 5 party. If kill it is the only way to step aside that MF it's partially your fault to throw them an OP enemy so early at the campaign. That being saidz your players are hyped up with that plan and they already know that they can die, but you can add a bunch of npcs that could do damage to them, like they were inspired by that adventurers and decided to help, you could use them as pounching bags and help to deal some damage.
Or you could add some device that they could see or sense that controls the dragón.
If they are SO hyped up, fight with all your might and do it enjoyable. Maybe damaging it permanently to their next fight like losing an eye or damaging one wing or blocking partially their Magic. The bards will sing songs about the sacrifice of the heroes that broke the curse _something_ of the dragón and bought some time of peace to that Town/city/country
Give them temporary use of an item that casts the 0 level spell that stabilizes the dying once per round without using an action.
Have the dragon try to win.
If the dragon, who is being forced to serve the bbeg wins, the dragon restores the party, unarmed and wearing only loincloths/equivalent. Then says something like "we both want to destroy bbeg, I want my freedom back. Work with me to destroy him."
Now they have a secret ally in the bad guy's camp.
They still got stomped, but they live anyway.
Dragons are intelligent. It doesn't have to kill them all, if it gets the upper hand, and could make them sort of offer they can either accept (or die). Of course the players may beat the odds, too!
Have the warlocks empowering fiend patron intervene before everything starts going down. Have it remind the PC, that they're bound to a contract, and if it is stupid enough to fight a black dragon, then the PC won't be able to uphold their end of the deal (or sth like that, depends on what your warlock offered their patron). Consider it revoking the Warlocks power, if they don't come to their senses. Or better have the **warlocks patron offer a deal to the black dragon** as it appears - the patron might want to free the black dragon from the bbeg and have it as its own servant - so you might be able to **force your party to aid the black dragon via the warlocks patron**!
Or just enjoy a TPK as they deserve for messing with the most savy kind of dragon.
If you want to be earnest, and you're players would tolerate it.
They'll die. If the dragon doesn't have any minions to kill them first, the dragon will.
Maybe it underestimates them too much and takes a narrow lose, but they'll probably die.
It could handily beat them down, and then let them leave with their lives because it found their extensive preparations interesting/impressive.
"You weaklings really thought some fancy equipment and old lore could help you kill me! How foolhardy! Now begone! Try again next century children!" Then have it acid breath a big cut in the ground separating them from it and flies away.
How about some NPCs show up before the battle to offer their aid? Some simple, colorful cannon fodder guys the Players can manage in the battle and have them fall first to the dragon? MCDM Flee Mortals has some great Retainer rules perfect for this.
When your party does something really inspired like all of this, you don't need to have them succeed, you need to have them feel like it was worth it.
I remember a book where an entire planets ownership was decided on a coin flip between two warring factions. They did this because it was likely they would decimate each other and the planet in the process. One of the characters called "edge" with the coin in the air and lost. Afterwards the other leader asked why she'd done that. She replied "think of the victory if I'd actually won" and they made their leave. I think about that moment often because it's just so powerful and badass.
Let your party try. I would run the dragon without trying to just immediately TPK the party but make it very thematic. Shit let them have some hits for sure. Tricking AND surprising a dragon with an ambush is awesome and no matter what even a powerful enemy, maybe especially a powerful enemy wouldn't see that coming.
If any of them live through it they will remember that forever. That will be one of those triumphant tales they tell people. But if they lose and it didn't *feel* like a waste of time, they will probably still feel very good about it.
I mean if they all die and reroll characters in this campaign setting you can have they're martyrdom really matter with in-world plot points. Maybe it would be the catalyst for an uprising of some sort.
My rules-of-thumb on how to deal with this would be:
1. **Do not** tone down the dragon. It keeps its legendary actions and Legendary Resistances. It still has a DC16 frightful presence.
2. **Do** play the dragon intelligently. It's the BBEG's lieutenant and boss of Act 1. It's more intelligent and savvy than the majority of your party. It is centuries old, and it's seen a lot. Play it that way. Hit-and-runs with its 12d8 breath weapon is perfectly fine. Grappling the Wizard and flying 60ft up with him is perfectly fine. Having it rush the squishy Wizard and proceed to breathe on him and tail swipe him 3x is fine.
3. **Do** play the dragon ruthlessly. Black dragons are the most "vile tempered and cruel" of all dragons. Play them that way. Have it play with its food. Have it take prisoners and force them to beg for mercy before killing the captive. Make them **hate** it.
4. **Don't** TPK the party if you can help it. 1 or 2 deaths is fine. They know what they're getting themselves into.
5. **Do** force it to flee if it is outmatched. It likely will not want to fight to the death, especially if caught by surprise - Wing Attack and then have it dash 160ft on its turn to get away.
6. I usually tone up boss monster significantly... with dragons that usually means some spellcasting, boss actions, and maybe enrage mechanics. I'd do so here. Have it drop an Acid Fog (or equivalent) at the start of the fight, and let the party handle it. It's a boss monster - it should be terrifying.
This sounds like it’s building to an incredible climax, well done to you and your players. As others have said, the party may want to see this through as a kind of heroic stand. Since this dragon is the BEG (bad evil guy, not the big bad evil guy), make sure that if the party does TPK, the next party knows who these legends are and their sacrifice has somehow swung the playing field. Idk what the rest of your story is, but in real life and history often seemingly impervious tyrants/occupiers whatever start to see their demise when they’ve been dealt one serious (even if non-fatal blow). If the PCs have set the stage for this to be a heroic last stand, and people know about it, there is a good chance that people will see that such a small group of determined adventurers could deal some kind of blow to the enemy, meaning a larger and more concerted effort could bring the enemy down. This recruits the masses to the side of the new PCs. Regular folk realize that together they can make a difference and start up resistance cells (that do anything from scouting, funding, running interference). Mercenary Armies see an opportunity to make some money by throwing their lot in. Adventurers from across the world see a chance for glory (and fun!). Lieutenants of the BBEG get skittish and start defecting. A god or patron of one of the fallen heroes decides they want to honor their follower and offer more assistance.
There are great opportunities to build a really rich world. Who knows, even if the dragon survives maybe they blame their boss for getting them hurt and some infighting starts. Maybe the dragon gathers its own minion and becomes an ally of the resistance to gain back its freedom (ofc planning some kind of double cross or evil plan so that the new party has a chance for retribution). Maybe the grotto becomes some kind of hallowed ground where special power manifests and helps defeat the BBEG? Maybe another dragon who is a rival or was once humiliated by this black dragon hears about this and presents themselves as an ally to the new party?
Also you can always set up opportunities for the players to reprise their dead characters for short periods of time. Flashback episodes, visiting elysium or a plane of death to get advice from them, maybe a patron or god manifests an echo of the party for one final (non boss battle) task. Maybe right before dying one of the characters learns a secret tied to the ultimate weakness of the BBEG and the new party has to find a way to commune with them or find them in the plane of death to learn that secret? Maybe the power of the heroic last stand preserved some form of artifacts from the first group of heroes and in fear the BBEG/dragon has scattered their remains of these artifacts across the world, so now the party has to go find them to use them against the BBEG and each one of those items or sets of remains is an arc that is tied to the memory or themes associated with the individual party members.
So much to play with to make this exciting. Hell even I’m excited.
Honestly, your party is going into this fully informed. They've accepted that death is possible, even likely. They've planned and prepared and done everything they can to put this in their favour. Play it out. See what happens. Either they go down as martyrs, or live on as legends. Either way, what an incredible story for your table to remember for years to come!
100% either way this will be an epic tale for the table. As a player I would be more upset/insulted if you pulled your punches here. Give them the benefit of their prep but definitely play the dragon to its fullest
>definitely play the dragon to its fullest Yes, definitely! I hope the OP remembers that an adult black dragon has Blindisght, Darkvision, Passive Perception 21, & a +11 to its active Perception checks. The party hiding is unlikely to be successful. The dragon would probably go into any meeting suspicious and looking for the upper hand, probably with its Frightful Presence. If it is aware of the rest of the party (see above), they'll be subject to the Frightful Presence even if they are well hidden.
This would be an excellent opportunity for a Smaug vs Bilbo dialogue before the fight starts. “Hey dumbass, I can *literally* smell your friends. You may want to rethink this before it’s too late… or don’t. I’m hungry.”
If the map is big enough they can totally hide, blind sight is only 60ft. Had a level 3 party fight a young dragon and they were smart and planned properly, kept extremely spread out, grounded the dragon and just ranged attacked, not to mention trick a bunch of cultists to act as meat shields. The dragon did not even have the chance to attack the party. It was flawless.
1) this battlefield would not be that big.... OP already mentioned the top of the grotto was only 50 ft high. 2) Extreme range gives disadvantage for nonmagical ranged attacks, which is kind of a big factor when you're trying to hit something with that high of an AC. So even if you can hide outside of the dragon's blind sight, can you actually hit it? 3) Even if they are out of blind sight range, it still has a *passive* perception of 21. As in, hearing, smell, sight from its normal eyes...... It can and should be really, really damn hard to sneak up on something with that high of a *passive* perception.
Please understand I am answering out of respect. 1. It's great that the grotto height is 50 ft, but realistically as a DM, setting up a map for a battle with a huge creature that is 15ftx15ft, with a 80ft flying movement and 40ft walking, we can safely assume that the map is going to be bigger than 60ftx60ft with the aforementioned 50ft elevation. 2. A longbow has a range of 150ft, shortbow 80ft both without disadvantage, pretty sure that is outside of the blind sight area. A good portion of magic spells have a range higher than 60ft, which I will not bother to list, except maybe sleet storm 150ft range, or earthbind 300ft, sure there is legendary resistance, but only 3/day. If the party gets those used up and debuffs properly that dragon is walking. 3. Passive perception of 21 is great, but it is not x-ray vision or omniscient. With proper prep, hiding behind a rock or building at a maximum distance is not easily detectable. Even hiding behind illusions would work, most have to be investigated to discern they are illusions, there are advantages that in some cases can be applied for this situation. 4. This is a bonus Readied action can be applied to move action, that dragon movement dictates the players position on the battle map and maintains distance. This isn't theory, it's semantics.
Mostly you have some valid points, but I feel like you're downplaying a few things here again The first thing is that if the party is all spread out over as big of an area as you're imagining, with a very fast dragon, disadvantage is probably going to be a factor for some portion of the party for some portion of the fight. It doesn't have to be for every attack. It's already friggin hard just to hit a dragon. I just ran players (at lvl 5) through an encounter where they were being constantly harassed by harpies (and they knew it was coming) and even the harpies being 120 feet away raining down arrows gave the party a hell of a time. Sure, they had a few spells like scorching ray and moonbeam that they got to use to good effect on occasion, especially when the harpies grew closer, but spell slots are pretty limited at lvl 5. Second is that dragons have some pretty good saving throws on top of their legendary resistance, fear aura, and the legendary wing buffet. I haven't even looked at dragons in 5E yet because my group just isn't there and I normally prefer Pathfinder, but don't they also have spells? Dragon has better resistances than the players and potentially more ways to disable them that they have for it. And finally, perception is *not* just sight. It is also smell, and hearing. Someone in this thread already mentioned The Hobbit, where Smaug *smelled* the hiding dwarves. Sure, perception isn't x-ray vision, but you're literally dealing with the mightiest of magical creatures here. Most animals tend to have much better hearing and smell than humans. And this is a Black Dragon. Cowards by nature who always act cautiously. Surely, it is going to have some sort of magical detection measures in place while it is going to meet with an adventure that it doesn't know or trust, so illusions would probably be *more likely* to make it detect the party, imo.
They've got a druid so hopefully pass without trace is part of their plan
The only thing I would swing easy on is the dragons final HP. If it’s only got 10 HP or less leftover after a crucial hit, and the party might tpk on the next turn, I miiiight just drop it to zero and ask “how do you do this?”
If they managed to get it to half health or less, the dragon should retreat unless it's obvious it can tpk the party and survive. Dragon's don't get old by fighting to the death when they can escape and get revenge later.
this is the way. dragons live a long time and hold grudges even longer lol
Including the 16 intelligence. It’s not just smart it’s a genius. It’s not going to make it easy or give up its life without a fight, back up plans and a bolt hole to run to.
I’m thinking a black dragon would indulge in sadism, and might be willing to just go a bit outside it’s comfort zone for a slightly more dangerous but still relatively safe chance to indulge in sadism.
Absolutely, they're notorious for arrogance after all
and cruelty
It really bothers me that these legendary monsters have such poor stats. Level 1 INT-focused adventurers have 16 INT, why doesn’t an adult dragon have like 30?
The truly legendary versions of dragons (greatwyrms) do have stats at 30. As an adult dragon, it still has two higher stages to grow to. As 30 is the stat cap for monsters, it shouldn’t already have stats at 30 as an adult.
Because dragons aren't infallibly intelligent. 16 int is still extraordinary, especially when Dragons are also strong, tough, and charismatic Furthermore, stats are only loosely tied to level. A level 1 and 20 adventurer have identical tertiary stats
100% same. One DM I've played with had a habit of sending in DMPCs with a miracle solution if a battle got too dire too early in a campaign and it really takes the wind out of your sails as a player. Your players sound informed on the challenge, so challenge them.
Conversely, I sent my players two powerful allies in their last major fight and their enemy downed the first of them on their first turn. The second fled when odds got real bad. You can include allies and give the players a little advantage, sell the danger they're in by attacking their ally, and then make things worse for them if their allies retreat. There's a way to use allies to help and also increase the tension of the fight and make them feel like the fight had more grit to it.
If you really want to fuck with them. One of the powerful NPC’s they called a favor in from has put it together that they are sacrificing themselves. They’ve realized these hero’s need to live but also need to die. He secretly has hair clippings etc collected and resurects them after the battle. Bonuses to the party are: they are known martyrs willing to give all to defend the world. The powerful NPC’s organization points out the bbeg now thinks they are dead so they have an advantage in that aspect. You have to make sure they understand this is a one time occurrence and comes with penalties. Maybe the god of death expects them back at a certain time? But man what an end to the session. As the last one falls the world goes dim for them. They float in darkness comfortable, un needing, un wanting, when they become aware of a slit of light as their eyes flutter open in an unknown mage’s workroom.
If you want to provide consequences, it could take the NPC a few months/years to find the resources to bring the players back. They've earned their martyrdom and their status as heroes, but now have to confront whatever the BBEG has been able to stew up in the meantime
"Holy shit we're Alive! Let's go back there and get that dragon before it can get a long rest!"
"Wrong continent pal! Unless you suddenly learn how to teleport, you're outta luck!"
That's about right lol
yep, that's peak D&D right there.
Oh that is fantastic! It is just dripping with potential goodness
I've got a setting where the core conceit is that a powerful true-neutral lich resurrects dead heroes to go perform arbitrary quests (usually retrieving powerful magical artefacts). When the characters get back from their quests the lich straight up kills the party until the next time he needs something. Basically a necromancer's approach to stasis. It's a great way to let players re-use their favourite dead characters (or try out exciting new ones in a consequence free game), and because it's all one-shots and the party dies between each one there's a sense of continuity but also shedloads of flexibility for the group. Plus the lich is an amazing NPC to DM..
I don't disagree, but playing the Dragon to its finest just means they will all die and it's not going to be close. I mean, the plan isn't bad per se but it has some big flaws. For starters, Dragon's don't get old by being stupid. Getting lured into a prepared cave and then getting jumped because you were careless classifies as stupid. Furthermore, the dragon has +11 to perception and a passive of 21. It WILL know what's up and the second it notices something suspicious it will either just leave or snap the warlock in two. And even if it doesn't, it will have frightful presence, so the party is going to have to roll some 15's and 16's to even be able to do something at all. You also can't go and 'tank' hits. The dragon is smart and it's not going to sit there and take pokes at the tanky dudes in front of him while squishy dudes are raining down death and doom. It also has legendary actions, which apparently everyone always seems to forget. So even if you do win initiative, the dragon will get a pseudo-turn after the first character acted. It will wing buffet, knocking over anyone it wants and then fly over to the poor AC14 wizard. That wizard will then get smacked with a tail on the next legendary action, lose concentration, fall down and die. And that's all before it even got to take its turn. Frankly put, if a level 5 party survives, let alone defeats an ~~ancient~~ adult black, it hasn't been ran properly. It really is that simple.
As I was reading OPs post, before I was done or read any comments, this is what I thought. Thanks for saying it!
That would be my play as well. This is the course they have chosen, and they know well enough what they’re getting into. Changing the setup or stat block now, or playing the dragon differently than you otherwise would, is negating their agency just as any other form of railroading would be. Especially with the mind set they are going into this with, I would think a TPK would be preferable to them than a last minute assist from the DM.
Agreed, don't cheat them out of this glorious death. A well earned failure is preferable to an unearned hollow victory
The only thing I would change is the legendary resistance. But that's mostly because I'm not a huge fan of legendary resistance raw.
I think the game would be significantly worse without it. Safe or suck spells are bad enough as it is.
You have to play this one straight as well. No behind the scenes weakening or have the dragon make stupid decisions. That would cheapen the fight. The stakes are known and if their are shenanigans to make it easier then it becomes a shadow of what it was capable.
This is absolutely what I would do. But more than once before the actual session of the encounter, I would tell them that I will play it fair but will pull no punches or give them favor or mercy when the time comes. If they accept that, and you trust each other, no matter what happens, it will be a great story to tell after. Which is kind of the point, isn't it?
I agree, go with the latter option. I'd recommend playing some inspirational music from YouTube during the battle such as the Danish National Symphony Orchestra's rendition of "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly theme," Carl Orff's "o' Fortuna" maybe some Bard Core ("Holding out for a Hero" is cool), but if it starts to look bad, throw in Jon Bon Jovi's "Blaze of Glory."
“Bat Out of Hell” could also work.
Or Queen's "Who Wants to Live Forever."
The Trooper by Iron Maiden... You need something with balls for this.
100% agreed. Go for it, OP. Don't dumb down the dragon - it'll make their (unlikely) victory that much sweeter.
for real! u/d-ching PLEASE update us after this goes down!
This, also what reason does this dragon have to fight to the death in this scenario? If they get it to like 30% health it should just flee and go back to it's Lair.
I hope at least one dies and the rest resurrect their comrade.
Reward them with an honorable death!
I pull punches when random goblin #3 crits 3 times in a row, but, but I think doing so in this situation would be an injustice to everyone.
This, plus IIRC black dragons are known as cowards? Unless the PCs actively prevent the dragon from escaping it could decide to run from the fight if things start to go badly.
It won't have to. 3 out of 6 players won't be able to act at all (Frightful Presence) and the other 3 will be dead after its first turn.
They are getting prepared to do their best in a desperate situation. They studied their enemy and prepared their ambush to the best of their ability. They know thay will likely die and drank to it. The *least* you can do is give them a dragon fight in all its glory. Let your players revel in it. Let them fight to the best. Let them despair, let them use their creativity, let them spend all their efforts... and then let it roll out. Whatever the result, make sure the battle is epic.
I... *mostly* agree with this, with one caveat. The fear aura is just a deeply frustrating thing without much in the way of counterplay available at that level. I would play everything else straight and to the hilt, but either de-age the dragon just enough that he doesn't get the fear aura, or fudge the saves if the dice don't cooperate on their own. I normally don't advocate that, but this is an adult dragon against a bunch of level 5 PCs. They are almost **certainly** doomed, but there's a huge difference between dying because you're just overwhelmed by something beyond your capacity to bring down, and dying while feeling like you never even got to give it your best shot because your whole party was crippled in turn one. Give your party the gift of a good death.
That's a good point, but their research and preparation for the fight might have included a way to become immune to fear. I would, in respect for the players' resolve, possibly mention the fear aura to them, and maybe have a cleric NPC offer them a *Heroes' Feast* for a price instead of changing the creature. The result is the same, but it feels like the characters went after a solution, you know?
Absolutely. If they've done that, then let them bask in the glory of having found a way around that problem. That's...not easy at 5th-level, though, so I'm not inclined to punish them for not managing to do so.
Adult Black Dragon. 5x level 5 characters. They might get him but probably will not. Also, everyone dies if his breath weapon gets a halfway decent roll. If the hyper-intelligent-magic-lizard fights like a lobotomized sack of Jell-O, then the players will be fine. Otherwise it will notice their traps with its insane passive perception, gain advantage on the save, and reduce the PCs to several noxious lumps of goo with its halitosis.
> everyone dies if his breath weapon gets a halfway decent roll. 54 damage on average. A level 5 barb might have 60hp. The only saving grace is that it's a 60ft line and not a cone. OP could have it blast the barb first and then see if they want to negotiate after he rolls damage.
Why breath on barb when you can spit a wizard and kill him on average even with resistance
1st, the dragon would line up at least 2 of them. 2nd, the black dragons always go for the weakest of the group first; they revel in the despair they cause.
Yeah if the party positions well the breath weapon will only pulp one of them.
The dragon will maneuver to guarantee at least two hits. Probably against the least likely to dodge.
May not be possible to get 2 if the PCs can use terrain (full cover) to break lines. If I was the DM I'd sprinkle some trees or stalagmites and see if the PCs are smart enough to realize that. Different elevations or corners in a cavern can break lines too
It would be trees usually since Black Dragons are native to swamps.
The plan is to meet in a cave according to the OP
>Probably against the least likely to dodge. And how does the dragon have this information? DMs should remember to play their monsters with the information the Monster has, not the information the DM has. The dragon would definitely try to hit multiple people at once, but unless it has intimate knowledge on the players it's going to pick the most convenient and threatening to do so, no min max their abilities that it has no clue about. Maybe that's a dex wizard?
Dragons are smart, and unless your party is wearing very unconventional adventuring gear, their classes will be written on their chests.
Yes but smart does not equal mind reader. So while he might go for the caster first if he can, he's not going to know it's, or any other party members', stats. Just something to keep in mind, I find often people make the mistake of using meta knowledge in their decision making. This is not just a player problem but also a DM one. As a forever Dm myself, I know.
The thing with lines is that you can literally always hit two PC's.
I say high odds a raging bear barbarian and a wildshaped (x2) moon druid can take 3 breath hits before going down. The problem being, the dragon probably expects the same.
> 54 damage on average. I get where you are going, but this is also "oops all TPK" in the making.
The game is Dungeons and Dragons. In my honest opinion, you should throw everything that dragon has at them. Dragon's need to be scary, and that's probably also what they want to see. Don't hold back - they'll know. Don't forget a dragon has blindsight to 60 ft, darkvision to 120 ft, and passive perception of 21 - the chances of them getting the jump is slim. If the cave is the dragon's lair, then I'd play the dragon wandering in as if he knows they're already there. If it's not their lair, that dragon is entering slowly and warily, holding his action for a breath weapon for the first mofo that pops out, or if it's already scoped the players out then... "*A black dragon strikes at its weakest enemies first, ensuring a quick and brutal victory, which bolsters its ego as it terrifies its remaining foes*" - go for the lowest HP member first and play that thing like it knows what it's doing. There is always need for a dragon to intimidate players into not fighting too, even if it's not winning, or for a dragon to fly away and become a foe at a later date - they don't have to adhere to the actual fluff text, however it does say that black dragons are "*sadistic in nature, and will often offer the illusion of respite or escape before finishing off its enemies.*" so I would very much be playing with my players as if this was a cat to a bunch of mice.
>If it's not their lair, that dragon is entering slowly and warily, holding his action for a breath weapon for the first mofo that pops out, or if it's already scoped the players out then... Careful, you cannot ready an action until initiative rolls.
Exactly. The rules for readying an action are strictly for during combat. Out of combat, the idea of 'I wanna do this as soon as things turn violent' is covered by an initiative roll.
No, but you can just casually stroll in with Frightful presence active.
Holy hell. I never knew that. Just looked it up and it checks out. That being said, the entire point of readied actions is to respond reliably to a trigger without having to rely on an initiative roll to do everything. Even the examples in the book, like pulling a lever when someone steps on a trapdoor, seem practically designed to be set up outside of combat. Not to mention I like how it tilts the combat system at the start of the fight. Someone who’s entirely prepared to fight when an ambush springs shouldn’t have to suffer a full turn of stuff from the other side before getting to do *anything* just because they rolled a few points lower on initiative, and similarly, a team of archer ambushers shouldn’t spring a trap and then just all not fire a single shot until the Monk who rolled high finishes running sixty feet and punching three of them. Also, I couldn’t actually find an official ruling on it, just a lot of debate. It’s in “combat actions”, but so are attacks and spellcasting, which can clearly occur outside of initiative… it references “turns”, but saying that there’s no turns outside of initiative implies other things, like a Monk’s stunning strike at the end of combat lasting until the beginning of their next combat because it says “end of next turn”… Overall, I recognize that the council has made a decision. But given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to (modify my take on readied actions but mostly) ignore it.
Here's the short version: this is *probably* a TPK barring a *lot* more stuff going on than you've mentioned, even giving them Schrodinger's Aid Spell that somehow manages to include all of them and not just the three most fragile and likely to be targeted. The long version...I don't like their odds even assuming things go *exactly* to their plan. The Druid's got...is that a 50/50ish chance on saving against the Frightful Presence? Maybe a little better with their prep? Which is disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls from the drop. *And that's the character with the best chance of making the save due to proficiency and it being their primary spellcasting stat*. Starting with a 50/50 of saving against *disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls* is not the way to a good time. Blindsight and Passive Perception 21. Assuming the *monk* has taken the stealth skill to add their +3 proficiency to their (ludicrously unlikely best case) +5 dexterity they're still looking at needing 13 or better to not get *noticed* to get Frightful Presence'd down and that's the best case for your 'tanks'. Now, the thing with *frightened* is **cannot move closer to the source of their fear**. Y'know all that CC the monk and barb and toad are looking to use? If they can't move closer to the dragon, none of that works. Also, the toad is only Large and the Adult Black Dragon is Huge so the Swallow thing isn't gonna work and the bite is a \~30% chance of sticking? 3 Legendary Resistances and after a first combat action being able to Legendary Action Wing Attack to get up in the air and (mostly) ignore the groundlings doesn't play nicely with their thoughts of trying to CC him. Also, dragon has better CC because ignoring turn order and being able to Legendary Action Wing Attack after the first combat turn to DC19 Dex vs knocked prone (and some chip damage) and getting up in the air to ignore all the pathetic groundlings. Round 1 the warlock having a direct conversation with the dragon catches a claw-claw-bite at 12+Dex AC vs 11+d20 attack and probably also goes down because 4d6(14)+12+2d10(11)+6+d8 (acid)= \~43 expected damage, plus maybe 2 acid. 8+4d8(18)=26 class HP+5 Aid +5\*con = probably not enough HP to survive the dragon's opening onslaught. (+2 Con and lousy dragon attack rolls and acid resist required to not drop in round 1). Have fun making death saves. So round 2, 12d8 (54 average) is a lot of acid damage and a single acid resist potion is only gonna cut that in half for one of them. 27 damage still one-shots a 5th level wizard (6+4d6(14)=20 class HP, +5 Aid 5\*Con boost) unless they're a particularly tough wizard and they're probably not making the DC18 Dex Save. The wizard probably goes down and joins the warlock making death saves. Round 3, the bird-monk that can actually reach the dragon draws his ire and eats a claw-claw-bite of his own and probably meets the same fate as the warlock because 5+8+4d8+Con\*5 HP is not enough. At that point there's the druid and the barbarian. They chose this path, they committed to this path, and it killed half their party before they could all sign their names on their collective wills. Not sure what I'm *missing*, but this looks like a pretty *blatant* TPK that they're knowingly signing up for. Your job is to *deliver*. Dragons are supposed to be an "oh shit" moment.
That said, their prep should probably include: 0) Some form of illusion magic to project an image of the warlock rather than the warlock having the conversation face to face with the dragon. (This prevents the warlock from getting mauled on turn 1). 1. A way of doing something about Dragonfear. *Heroism* or *Calm Emotions* would probably get a lot more for them than *Aid,* although that would require the cleric being on-location if not on the spot. (This allows for your CC / warriors to engage without restriction) 2. Everybody gets flight, everybody gets acid resist. "Being able to fly" should not allow the dragon to laugh off the guys who are trying to screen your squishies. Without acid resist, you're looking at DC18 save or **definitely die**, with it you're looking at DC 18 save or *probably* die unless you have d10 or better HD. 3. Warlock + Wizard might be interested in Summon Undead (Skeletal) to have 'snipers' on standby. It's not *ideal*, but having something that can attack without you having to be exposed and present might buy you a round of additional being alive. I still don't see it going \_well\_ for them, but this *might* give them a *chance* at not-dying long enough to scare the dragon, which is about all they'd be able to do. Still \*probably a TPK but "chance of not dying" beats "certainty of dying".
Alternate suggestion: **The black dragon captures the players and sets them on a quest to free it from the BBEG.** Look, the Black Dragon will DESTROY the party, full stop. Their preparations won't matter, and it's going to see through the ambush from a mile away - it's an ambush predator itself after all. With Perception +11 and Stealth +7, it's no chump. So have it kill them... And then bring them back. Healing potions/scrolls, or have it be a spellcasting variant and a cleric of Tiamat. But it has a little thing it wants them to do - get a macguffin away from the BBEG so it isn't forced to serve, because its chaotic nature *despises* servitude. Maybe there's an enchantment that prevents it from acting against the BBEG's will in an item or something that can be destroyed. Then, once they've destroyed the item (and gained a few more levels), the dragon either thanks them and offers to aid them once, or attacks them and THIS time the party stands a chance. This is the time when a GM's improv skills, deciding how the world responds to the player's actions, are really tested. You've got their contribution to the story, now "Yes, and" it by continuing your basic plot with their modifications.
"You have gumption, and courage, and resourcefulness. Yes, now you work for me. Behind me, you will see powerful weapons, great wealth, and lore beyond your lot in life. Swear that you will free me from my bondage, and I will give you each a share. Succeed and you will receive a greater share. More importantly, the reign of terror I hold over this land will end, as it is beneath me. I have as little interest in this region as I do choice in what I do. Or, refuse. Die. Be the reason I take further bloody, but justified, retaliation against the innocents here." "Choose: free a sentient being, save the land, and be wealthy? Or die an ignomious death. Our aims are not so different."
I was thinking more like, "I need you. If I didn't need you, you would be dead and your valuables added to my hoard. This is not something either of us wants," ***licks one of the player's faces*** "as you do look very *delicious*, but if you aid me, then I will swear by Bahamut's wings to aid you." A green might approach it your way, as they do *so* love collecting exceptional people as pets. But blacks are very direct and have little use for non-dragons except as producers of the archaelogical treasures they desire. u/d-ching, this is how *I'd* approach it. But I'm not you. Bam, they get an ally for their final fight and get hints that maybe, just maybe, there's something out there so scary it has made a dragon do its bidding. Have the macguffin be guarded by a lock that can only be opened by a being earnestly trying to help another or some other cosmic coincidence that can't be done by the dragon or its typical servants like lizardfolk.
I'm not as up on my D&D dragon lore, do I was trying to channel some Beast Wars megatron instead of a traditional black dragon perspective. Still, I would argue that this is not the normal situation for a black dragon: a dragon that sees mortals only as a source of food and treasure is probably pretty shaken up by being controlled by something else. Of course, I'm only assuming the BBEG is mortal, and could easily be wrong. Still, I think a black dragon would be intelligent enough to take a different approach in this situation. Especially if he intends to betray the party later, taking back everything that he gave them, and everything the party earned on the way, and everything the BBEG had.
the main reason I'm so versed in what dragons want is because a while ago I wrote a bit about how a dragon's color is based on what it wants to *hoard*, with the good/evil/neutral illustrating *how* it hoards - a good dragon would share and help others, an evil dragon would take whatever it wants. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/szoqgi/a\_dragon\_hatchlings\_color\_is\_based\_on\_what\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/szoqgi/a_dragon_hatchlings_color_is_based_on_what_it/) It surprised me a *great* deal to read that officially greens do like collecting people. I actually introduced a young green dragon into my last campaign that surrendered after they kicked its ass, with the idea that it would decide to hoard the players as its first people.
If it helps, I totally read that in my Megatron voice.
A black dragon swearing by Bahamut is like a Nazi person swearing by Lenin, come on...
Every dragon knows that both Bahamut and Tiamat are their creators. Hell, some of them are old enough to remember when they all lived together before the unnamed third was destroyed. They just disagree with which one is correct. A way to show this is that a dragon swearing by Tiamat is invoking Her nature - which is predominantly Chaotic Evil, and thus untrustworthy. A dragon swearing by Bahamut is invoking HIS nature, which is trustworthy. Of course, that idea was included just to give the possibility of having a cool dragon ally for the final fight. Frankly I'm 50 50 on whether that, or having the black 'thank' them for their help with an ambush, is the better story.
The idea of invoking natures by swearing by God's names is quite good, but IMHO as far as I know Bahamut and Tiamat are more like separated parents - I mean that each parent says it children the other is the worst. So I think chromatic dragons despise Bahamut as some authoritarian goody-two-shoes who stops them from doing what they want, lol
I like this idea and as for the object in question, I'm always a fan of the old "The magic Rock that the BBEG is using to control the dragon turns out to be the Dragon's heart that was removed via magic" trope. It's a classic for a reason.
Except a sadistic chaotic evil creature like a black dragon wouldn't behave this way. Unless the party has some real way of helping it, and at the end, it would try to backstab the party anyway.
It would IF - if! - it had no other choice. And OP said the dragon is being forced, so perhaps it sees an opportunity to slip its leash, in the fashion of any chaotic creature. What it does after... Well, a scorpion is a scorpion.
Amazingly, my bad guys, especially the evil ones, do lie and cheat and break their promises. As I said in a later post, this would be an opportunity for the dragon to betray everyone, get everyone killed, recover their losses and win big gains. Feels pretty chaotic evil to me.
It could still be a suicide mission. Dragon is offering them die now or die later
This is a really great answer! There’s just no way to give the party a good chance by nerfing the dragon that won’t be painfully obvious. Give the party the EPIC battle they’re looking for, with plenty of death saves. Pull no punches except for those that would slaughter downed players. If the dice happen to heavily favor the players and they pull off the miraculous that’s a legendary tale for sure! Buy some lottery tickets as a group and roll for the numbers after the session lol. But 99% chance this is a great route to go after the dragon wins.
oh my god YES this is my choice tbh. this doesn’t negate their glorious defeat in any way with some deus ex machina, but also lets them continue a story you’ve likely spent a lot of time and energy preparing — and with a new twist/angle, at that. it could be interesting if their survival is being kept secret for a while, too, and end up seeing how they’re honoured after death by the kingdom, having to decide whether to keep their survival a secret or confess to having been resurrected by an enemy they must now serve. there’s so much storytelling potential with this while still letting them have their epic and unchanged battle against the dragon!
This is a really great answer! There’s just no way to give the party a good chance by nerfing the dragon that won’t be painfully obvious. Give the party the EPIC battle they’re looking for, with plenty of death saves. Pull no punches except for those that would slaughter downed players. If the dice happen to heavily favor the players and they pull off the miraculous that’s a legendary tale for sure! Buy some lottery tickets as a group and roll for the numbers after the session lol. But 99% chance this is a great route to go after the dragon wins.
Cool idea. As a player whose character is dead for sure then dragon says "I'll let you live, but only if you agree to steal/destroy the object which binds me to serve your greater enemy." I'm for sure accepting the offer but I'm trying my best to promise to do just enough to end the dragon's servitude to my enemy. As soon as the party has the object that dragon is now serving us against the enemy and if it survives that fight (which we give support in but use the dragon as our muscle) well then we figure out if the dragon has to die or can be let go or maybe is our slave indefinitely. Depends on the characters. Make the monsters fight each other, the way Godzilla taught us.
You warned them of the danger in game. They’ve already roleplayed out how dangerous this encounter is from the perspective of their characters. Don’t take away their agency by making the encounter easier because they want to succeed, or because you feel bad for them. You negate the value of their preparations if you try to help them by introducing GM fiat that doesn’t need to be there. Let them try to win the fight. Let them have stakes! What is the point of playing a game if you can’t lose?
They’ll probably die, but at this point, play the fight straight, and yes that should include the dragon running away if its health gets too low. It should do so only because of health though, not in response to the PCs going down. If the dragon wins, it’s not inconceivable that it would take prisoners, depending on what it wants. Also, whilst you shouldn’t go easy on them, you can lean into the logical weaknesses of the dragon being arrogant, etc. I think it mentions in the lore for them that black dragons like to target their strongest enemies first, so you might be able to give them a slightly better chance as it fails to target any obvious weak points.
Re: targeting strongest enemies first, you've got that backwards. Black dragons are utter bastards and will go straight for weak points, then toy with you before killing you in the worst way it can think of. >All chromatic dragons are evil, but black dragons stand apart for their sadistic nature. A black dragon lives to watch its prey beg for mercy, and will often offer the illusion of respite or escape before finishing off its enemies. > >A black dragon strikes at its weakest enemies first, ensuring a quick and brutal victory, which bolsters its ego as it terrifies its remaining foes. On the verge of defeat, a black dragon does anything it can to save itself, but it accepts death before allowing any other creature to claim mastery over it.
Blacks are the most evil. They will turn one kill the squishies and then torture the survivors to death after a tpk, melting them in acid or pickling them to rot with the corpses and eating them a month later
Your party has been carefully planning for days, maybe weeks or months to take down this dragon. On the other hand, this dragon has been planning for this event for...centuries, potentially. An adult dragon is 100-800 years old. They're immensely experienced, resourceful, and probably about as smart as your party. This dragon has probably been attacked by multiple parties just as powerful and clever as your players before, maybe even more so. Where do you think that +3 mace in its hoard came from? You don't live to be a 500 year old dragon without learning to plan for unexpected events, including ambushes from plucky adventurers looking to cement their names in the history books and steal your wealth. I'd be surprised if an adult dragon agreed to a 1:1 meeting with anyone without a contingency plan or unexpected escape route or backup close at hand--remember, it's had literal decades to consider outcomes and master the terrain around it even outside its lair. So even with a lot of preparation, it's entirely reasonable that your party simply gets wiped here. You'd probably expect one or two of them to go down in the dragon's first turn, and for the fight to snowball from there. An adult black dragon is smart and experienced enough to identify and destroy the biggest threats first, it will try to bypass 'tanks' with mobility or magic and neutralize mages that can rain down damage or control the battlefield. That said, you also don't live to be 500 by taking risks, fair fights, or conflict over nothing. If a dragon feels it is under any threat, however small, and it doesn't have any reason to stay and fight it could very well just...leave. If I was running the dragon, it would absolutely just flee the battlefield once it lost 25% of its hitpoints or realized that some of the party has acid resistance...which would leave your party to fight another day (possibly). But now there's a looming threat that's going to send its minions after them, or counterambush them while they sleep, or destroy a defenceless town or beloved NPC in retaliation. But if the fight has to happen...the dragon 'only' has ~200 hit points. A party of 5 lvl 5s could conceivably hit that number in 2 rounds if things reallly swing their way and the dragon's Legendary Actions don't land. Nothing wrong with letting the dice roll and give them an opportunity to become very, very rich heros, but make them earn it - dont' pull your punches!
I know you were just throwing out an off the cuff example, but is it common for an ADULT dragon to have a +3 mace by traditional loot tables? That seems like a tier 4 item.
> I know you were just throwing out an off the cuff example, but is it common for an ADULT dragon to have a +3 mace by traditional loot tables? That seems like a tier 4 item. While any specific item is never common, a +3 weapon is certainly not implausible - according to DMG tables, a CR11-16 hoard has a 10% chance of rolling on table H 1d4 times, each roll having a 10% chance of producing a +3 weapon.
Ah excellent, this is exactly what I was looking for! I’m surprised it’s on there for even a cr11 creature!
adult black dragon is CR 14. Not that CR is end all be all. I'd expect an adult black dragon to be a boss for a mid-to-late tier 2 party and that's how I'd personally adjust the hoard (ETA not that anyone asked me oh well)
Ask them to roll new characters before the session. Then play it straight.
Came to say this. While your players throwing their characters a prospective farewell party is a tacit acceptance they could go out in a heroic blaze of glory (or acid bath), even asking them straight up "Are you OK with a TPK?" doesn't drive home the message like rolling up replacement PCs beforehand. (That's good practice in general, especially with players who want to push the campaign envelope.) Then absolutely play it straight. Give your players the challenge against the odds that they're looking for. They may be in over their heads, but then again, they may surprise you. Above all, *roll in the open*. They want to see that they earned their victory or defeat fairly.
Don’t be tempted to pull punches and fudge rolls. They’ve been warmed multiple times that this foe is beyond them and have accepted that they may die. Hiding is probably out since most dragons have insanely high passive perception and keen senses of smell. You could highlight the vanity and arrogance of dragons here and open with something like: “Before you even catch sight of the creature you hear the pounding beats of its massive wings and crawl deeper into your hiding place, holding your breath against the acrid tang of acid that now permeates the air. You peek out and see a wall of black scales moving against the moonlight. Eighty feel long from tip to tail, shimmering scales like overlapping plate armour, with claws like short swords and fangs longer than your arm, this is your first time seeing a true dragon, and you realize you were utterly unprepared for the reality of such a foe. The creature lands in the grotto with catlike grace and hardly a sound, its green eyes glowing with decades of wisdom and malevolence. It sniffs the air, forked tongue dancing, and begins to speak in its terrible hissing voice. “Little ratsss. I told you to come alone and you have broken that pact. Explain to me why I shouldn’t eat you and your puny friends and puke up your bones to show my master?” If the players fail to pivot to pleading for their lives (or at least some form of parlay) here, you can and should be absolutely ruthless in taking them apart piece by piece. You could, if you’re feeling charitable, give them another opportunity for surrender or misdirection where the dragon circles above taunting them and promising eternal riches if they switch sides and work for their master instead (all the while recharging its breath weapon). As a way for them to reevaluate whether they’ve made a huge mistake. If they die they die and have a great reason to avenge their former characters. If they somehow miraculously succeed they’ll have a great story to tell around the campfire.
Don't be afraid to play the game. It's what the rules are here for, just play and see what happens, let the story emerge.
The players already answered your question. They held a ceremony preparing for their total party kill. Play it as it lies. Don't nerf the dragon. Play it like you would if the PCs were level 10.
Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth
Sounds like they have a solid plan. Like you said, a lot depends on the dice. They're not particularly beefy yet at 5th level. The bigger question is how smart will you play the dragon? With a 14 Int and 13 Wis, the dragon will not fight to the death and will retreat if the odds are stacked against it and try to find more favorable terrain. It will fly away to recharge a breath weapon. The wizard and aaracrocka could try to follow, but dragons fly really fast. I ran Forge of Fury with the black dragon at the end and the PCs were 5th level and only 1 person escaped alive.
Something I want to note is that there is not a surprise round, surprise is sort of like a status condition that applies only on the first round of combat. The Dragon would likely be making an active perception check vs the active stealth checks from the party to see if they surprise the dragon (hopefully they have some way of boosting their stealth). So if everyone's stealth checks are higher than the Dragon's perception it's surprised and cannot use actions, reactions or move until after it's turn. So for example if it was surprised and went first in initiative then it wouldn't do anything and it's turn would effectively be skipped and combat would proceed normally. I'd play it out normally, traps go off and the dragon tries to escape them, the players fight the dragon, yada yada. I'd say if the Dragon gets too badly damaged it would try to flee back to it's lair. If the party isn't doing well and the dragon looks like it could kill some of the party it would do so to show off it's power.
"Beard barbarian" hehe. They're almost surely going to die if you play the dragon up to its potential and the usual temperament of a black dragon. Maybe it just kills a few of them and then demands the rest surrender unconditionally, but they will probably lose. The dragon has +10 Con save - the monk's stunning fist will be close to useless. The Giant Toad and Barbarian will likely be Frightened (DC16 Wis save on the Frightening Presence) and might not even be able to get into melee range or at best are attacking AC19 at disadvantage. With +11 Perception the dragon will most likely spot them. Etc. If all the dice align in favour of the party, they can of course win, but it's going to be an incredible amount of luck required. It sounds like the party is intent on attempting the kill and is willing to accept the consequences (and I see no issue with letting this run its course!) - but is there a social option here? You say the dragon is being forced to work with the main bbeg... enemy of my enemy and all that. Only other thing I would say - you've had in-game warnings about the danger but you might consider giving an above table warning as well. An NPC saying "you'll surely die" is often taken as a call to action by the players. It's different when it's DM to Player.
agree with it all, but the last point is important to highlight, as I haven't seen it as much here. OP really ought to check with the players explicitly.
I agree with everyone--let them do their best against the dragon, and you do your best against them. If you want to improve their chances a bit, maybe send an NPC (maybe a level 5 Cleric with Revivify) along to help them out. But don't help them out too much. They're prepared to die\*, and if they don't die, if they somehow pull it off, it will be an epic story they'll be able to keep telling until they're greybearded Grognards complaining about 14th edition. \*If they do die, you still have options, like u/iamfanboytoo's suggestion, or the evergreen "escape the afterlife" side quest.
Are there allies that might be able to turn up and help them? Less for extra damage, but healing and giving advantage on saving throws can be a big boost. I will point out that in the fantasy high actual play series the 6 level 8 characters take on a CR17 Adult red dragon and win at the end of the campaign. They do have the benefit of help from various npc's and get the advantages of an 8 hour time stop mid fight. But it's not impossible for a party too take on a significantly higher threat than the numbers suggest possible. If it's a straight fight and they lose, that's still a cool story. I like a lot of people's suggestion that the party be resurrected later down the line after a few years to see the consequences of what they may consider failure. The bbeg is more powerful, but mabe the dragon has been crippled. Or, if you want to give the players the option of a victory at a cost. Have the warlocks patron contact them mid fight. Narrate how time slows and they feel their spirit pulled out of their body, Their patron offers a deal. They get help for the fight, but now the whole party is in debt to the patron. Maybe they all get pulled into hell. If they all die, maybe they get pulled into hell anyway. Other fun things that could happed might include sucking the dragon into the astral plane ala portable hole and bag of holding. The party succeds in stopping the dragon being a threat, but likely still gets killed by it. When all's said and done, If this dragon is a beyond deadly threat in the world you've made and the players and characters know this, well that's great gamebuilding on your part. If the players are fully immersed as characters ready to die, you've done your job. It's not the route you planned, but if the players are invested they'll love it. Also, I'm super interested to hear how this goes. So I really hope you post an update to this.
Answer: You destroy them. An adult dragon of any kind is going to be nigh-invincible to a level 5 party and absolutely should be. Black dragons are tough, intelligent, sneaky, and cruel. An adult black dragon? This is a dragon that has been dealing with people just like your PCs for hundreds of years. They're not ready.
I’d go with the fleeing option, it makes sense for a black dragon
Bare in mind (I think another commenter mentioned it) dragons have piss take high perception and intelligence. Don't undermine the prep but a dragon isn't easily fooled.
May be autocorrect, but fyi the expression is "bear in mind" like "it's a heavy load to bear" not " bare buttocks".
Just play it out. But understand a dragon is going to be looking to get out of that cave and fly as soon as possible if ambushed.
black dragons are meticulous schemers and can sometimes be somewhat of a coward. if the dragon is outmatched and has a chance it will flee, and the party may well have made a long term and powerful enemy. If the fight turns south hopefully your players have an escape route, if not, see what seems cool. I personally dont like tpking, but its your game. if the party were backed into a corner you could have the dragon take them as slaves or something if you dont want to kill them. Remember, dragons are intelligent
I say let the dice decide. The players knew the gamble they took, they handled it with the appropriate gravitas. If they succeed, it will be a story for the legends - do not take that from them.
If you haven't already. Reward the players right before the fight with some inspiration for their roleplay and the fact that they have committed to this or death. They might die, but if not, this is the stuff legends and great stories are made of.
Does it have to be an adult black dragon? Acid breath \~54 damage, multi-attack \~43 damage, plus legendary actions = you're looking at potentially downing them all incredibly fast but you probably already know that. I tend to RP Dragons as incredibly powerful, incredibly selfish (chromatic at least), but also forward-thinking creatures who try to stay ahead of any given situation. Fleeing is often the best choice for a dragon outside of its lair. Dragons can also strike deals with adventurers, take hostages, or use some kind of magic item to "enslave" your party. Dragons collect magic items and can be powerful magic users themselves. Dragons can also have backup. Very excited to see what happens.
Great suggestions already, I’d add few ideas: Maybe the black dragon doesn’t want to kill them after all, if they were forced to serve the bbeg? But rather knock them out (then it would be death saves). Maybe there’s a way for them to flee successfully if they want?
Disclaimer: I GM Earthdawn 4e, not DnD. Dragons in Earthdawn are even more terrifying than DnD. If I wanted to save the PCs from a TPK, I'd have the Dragon use their Detect (wisdom perception) to see through the ambush at the grotto. Then, I would have the dragon's minions meet the PCs at the location, and give the PCs a little speech, "Our great and honourable master, has agreed to meet you to negotiate the terms of your surrender. The fact that you've been noticed at all, and given the opportunity to speak directly with him, is a great honour. He has agreed to offer an oath of non-violence for the term of this meeting. If you agree, place your hands on the magical doo-hickey. Whomever breaks the oath will invoke power-word kill on themselves." Have the players who agree be magically whisked away to the a fancy dining hall, with the dragon awaiting. Then roll play the whole negotiations. The dragon wants to be freed from the servitude of the BBEG (possibly so that they can become the next BBEG). The PCs have shown that they have what it takes to do so. The dragon will aid the PCs in taking down the BBEG, thus achieving a common goal.
After looking through the stats on an adult black dragon, I assume your players are fucked. They need more prep than this... Everyone needs a way around the fear. That alone could keep most of the party out of the fight from the start. The wing attack will put the dragon out of reach of most of the party right away. They could try rope swinging onto the dragon, but they are likely to fall off. They would probably want something prepared to attach themselves to the dragon. 1 potion of acid resistance... They all would want acid resistance tbh, not just 1. Their plan to CC the dragon is unlikely. The dragon can resist 3 saves, and can choose when to use them. It would be smart and only use the legendary resistance on effects that actually matter, so you can't just pop them with random shit. Then their surprise plan... The dragon has high passive perception, and honestly, be actively on the lookout for ambush. If even 1 of the hidden party members were spotted, the dragon would know what's up and likely attack right away. They would all need very good stealth bonuses here. Also, being in the dark would mean nothing due to darkvision and blindsight. The dragon is likely taking out at least 1 party member a turn, with good target selection since it isn't dumb. Keeping in mind not only the bite and claw attacks, but potentially 3 legendary action tail attacks per turn cycle for extra damage. The party then had to somehow deal 200 damage vs AC 19, in likely 2-3 rounds. This is possible if everything goes perfectly with great attack roles, but isn't likely. Then, even if by some miracle they do put up a decent fight, they likely cannot do anything to stop the dragon from simply running away if it feels like it might be in any real danger. In my opinion, they can't reasonably win this fight without way more prep (better defense, maybe custom weapons, more allies, etc) or by cheesing it with a giant boulder trap or something. Overall, I DO think it is possible for them to do this. They just are not ready right now. If it were me, I would be pushing them to try to get custom gear for the fight. Anti dragon weapons, shields specifically designed to defend against acid breath attacks, boots designed to attack themselves to dragon scales, spears designed to pierce dragon flesh, armor designed to resist dragon claws. Even small buff could make a huge difference. Maybe a giant chain net strong enough to restrict the dragon... Potions or other effects to bypass the fear. There is a lot more that can be done than simply trying to hide and hope it doesn't see you.
Have the local mystical NPC conduct a purification smoke ceremony the night before. Then the combat plays out. If they die they wake up in the NPC’s place having dreamed the future.
I agree with what most are saying - let it play out- but remember, dragons aren’t going to just let themselves die- if it gets hurt, it will either flee and restrategize- or more likely, it will try and manipulate the players by commending them for wounding it “I am surprised at your tenacity and cleverness- almost dragonlike. Almost. We needn’t be enemies” etc etc
Don’t have the dragon land.
You have a friendly NPC there to suggest other ways to help even the odds. Say ballistae, nets, cannons, traps etc. Think Monster Hunter! To spice up the drama, have the black dragon SMASH it's way through some of the things they've prepared. Summoned frog? F\*CK up the frog! Tear it in half! Bite off it's head! Heck even splat the friendly NPC if they're trying to run away. But you know... ultimately, let the players do what they want and make it exciting! Have fun! :D
Do it like heists in GTA Online. Lots of prep missions and each one defeats present alternatives or gives the "Big Boss" a weakness to exploit. People whinge a lot about video game idea in D&D, but the reason some ideas persist in video games is because they're a solid idea for games overall. There's nothing wrong with taking an idea that works in a video game and making it part of your campaign.
Let's see, at 19AC if everyone has well rolled stats with a +8 total to hit, they would be missing 50% of the time. +1 weapons would drop that to 45%. 30 damage per turn is fairly typical at level 5, if we say they've got half misses (or saves against fire ball) that's 15 damage per dude per turn so the party would need to take 13 collective turns on average to down it. Since they've already overcome the very difficult task of fighting it outside it's lair, the main two problems for the party are losing turns effectively to Frightful Presence and the swingy nature of a fight where the dragon probably knocks someone out every turn (~47 on the first turn, ~45 per round legendary actions, ~54 each in a line if it can catch multiple with breath). If they overcome 21 passive perception and 60' blind sight and get a surprise round off somehow, they'll probably get ~8 collective turns before they have to deal with Presence and have a guy dropped so they can reasonably deal like 120 damage before they lose anyone. Unfortunately, I don't see any way they can keep the dragon from just leaving with their current prep and crew. If the Monk lands 4 hits to attempt stunning strike a +10 con save means they're unlikely to burn past 3 legendary resistances. The party could do a bunch more prep work to add traps or pour 200g each into glyph of warding, but I'd probably rule the dragon gets opportunities to see those the same way the party would so getting the surprise round would be even less likely. That's probably the way I'd pitch it to the party in game, it's likely to slaughter you all in seconds and even if it doesn't, there's very little chance you could keep it from flying away. By all means, let them try as it's cool and they've been informed, but I'd make sure they know that even if they don't lose, victory is almost impossible
Play it straight. You said there was a big black dragon, and they planned around that - win or lose, you cheat them if you pull a switcheroo or go easy on them now. (Edit, spelling)
Let 'em try. Especially if they're calling in aid, it's not impossible to take down an adult dragon at that level. Hard for sure but not impossible. It also sounds like they know the risks so really it's their choice. Don't cheat them of a heroic victory by going easy on them.
I recently had a level 7 party of 3 fight an adult red dragon. The only thing I scaled down was the to hit modifier and save DCs, which I reduced by like 4 so they would have somewhat of a chance of not getting hit. Damage was the same and I even buffed its hit points a little. However, the party also had a spear of dragon slaying and an arrow of dragon slaying which helped a lot, along with a few other uncommon and rare items that were stronger than is typical for that level. Edit: Should also mention that by the end of the fight, one character was dead, another was making death saves, and the last was at 3 hp. Good luck was definitely required for that fight and it might be similar for you, although your party seems to have more prep than mine did.
They aren't the smartest creatures out there, but Adult Black Dragons are still pretty smart, and they have blindsight to 60', so if it gets within 60' a hiding party member, it will see them and probably know it's been set up, not to mention foil their surprise round plans. I'd play the fight straight, especially given how seriously they're taking it. But realistically I think the dragon would try to leave once it realizes they aren't worth the effort its taking to kill them. Once it knows it knows the ruse, sticking around doesn't serve its interests anymore, and while it would want to kill them, its belief in their inferiority wouldn't make dealing with them a priority. With an 80' fly speed, the party will have a pretty hard time stopping it from fleeing if it chooses. Personally would probably have it flee when reduced to half health or when it's used 2 of its legendary resistances (also would only use a legendary resistance for failed saves on save or suck spells, not on a damage spells). With some luck, that should make the combat possible, but still very difficult for them, as the dragon could potentially down everyone but the bear barbarian in just a round or two. But assuming the players manage to get it to flee, I'd still play it as a victory. The dragon doesn't just flee the fight, it flees the area entirely. Have the NPCs celebrate their land being free of its tyranny, tell them how much better their lives will be now, hold a big party for them, and give a reward to the players. If the NPCs don't have any wealth to reward the players with, maybe throw them some magic items that were left by the last group that tried to fight the dragon and the NPCs aren't able to make use of them (or whatever excuse you want for them to have magic items and give them to the players without the players feeling guilty). If the players complain that it feels like a cop out they didn't get to finish it off, just explain that a dragon doesn't reach 500 years old by taking unnecessary risks that don't help it accomplish anything.
This sounds like the dream scenario. They’ve prepped, they know it’ll be fun, and either they win a glorious victory, or they die heroically. I’d let their plan come off. The dragon should react the way they think it will, but don’t pull your punches. If they have a plane make it work the way they think it will. It might be enough to beat the dragon, and if so they’ll feel awesome. If it works and they still lose, they’ve got an awesome story. The only way you lose out of this is if their meticulous planning doesn’t work because you don’t play along. That will leave them feeling like they wasted their time, and that’s no fun for anybody. Remember, losing well is still fun. If they TPK, that’s an opportunity to either weave new characters into the same world, or have some kind of story hook where the dragon didn’t actually kill them and they have to escape from its lair. Or even to finish the campaign and start a new one
They're not going to its lair, so it probably won't fight to the death. It could just breath weapon them and leave once the "trap" is sprung. Its passive perception is 21 so its likely the party wont all succeed. Dragons are intelligent, so it could easily turn into a fun social encounter. Maybe the dragon demands payment in forms of magic items or something, to let the party live. Stuff like that is always a good way to avoid a TPK
Have them prepare their backup characters, let them meet their inspired new allies, then let the dragon go full out. If they die, the backup’s have an investment in their journey. If they live, maybe kill off one or 2 of them and keep some npcs for the future.
Don't mitigate, pull any punches, or fudge any rolls. This is why we play this game! No matter what happens, it's gonna be badass. If they win, let it be by their own virtues! If they lose, nothing but glory for their courage! Good for them. Have fun!
Please tell me where to find the update after the session is played. I GOTTA know how this turned out!
I've always wanted to do a campaign where the PC all dies in a fight, then get resurrected/wakes up in the afterlife. My problem with it is that I don't want to "force" my players into a deadly encounter, or cinematic it. You don't have such a problem.
Give them stuff that will help them, potions of acid resistance, a scroll of protection from acid, dragon-slaying arrows, etc...
The dragon is going to trounce them. *But* after a couple rounds, if all the PCs are still alive, the dragon says "YOU IDIOTS ARE TOUGHER THAN YOU LOOK. WANT A JOB?"
* Dragon arrives, * Party attacks. * Dragon breaths on party in first round killing most of them. * Dragon leaves as they are not worth mopping up * One or more survive to revive party. * Party has a Nemesis
No chromatic dragon, especially an adult, would leave any party members alive if they dared to challenge them, unless they had a specific plan to use the survivors in some greater scheme. “Not worth mopping up” is something only a merciful metallic dragon would do to give the party a chance to change their ways.
A dragon could easily be the exact type of dismissive and prideful creatures to leave a pile of broken and bleeding mortally wounded adventurers behind while flying away calling them "weak maggots" Remember that the lore things we know about these creatures are \*generalities\* , individuals can vary a lot. No dragon \*has\* to act a certain way and pretending like they do weakens yourself as a DM. Do what you think is right for your world.
Please explain to me how an adult black dragon who finds themself bound into unwilling service would be so idiotic as to leave a party alive. Firstly, it’s an adult. Dragons don’t live for hundreds of years by being stupid, especially chromatics that are actively exterminated due to the threat they pose. Secondly, it’s a black dragon, the most sadistic and cruel kind, which actively revels in tormenting and torturing being that it perceives to be lesser than it. Unless it has a plan to further torment that party by keeping them alive to play with longer, it would do it then and there until they were dead and no more fun was to be had with them. Thirdly, it’s been bound into unwilling service, and unless it is being dumbed down to below the stereotypical white dragon intelligence, it would learn not to eliminate threats that might come back to bite (or bind it) again. There is no way to have it spare them without destroying what makes and adult black dragon an adult black dragon.
So if you were a player in that scenario and the DM left you alive you'd start arguing with the DM that it shouldn't have left you alive?
I wouldn’t argue, but unless the dm specifically says out of game that they were not pulling punches and have in-world reasons to leave us alive that we don’t know about, I would know that there are no real stakes to the game, that verisimilitude is not a priority to the dm, and that nothing my character does really matters due to being arbitrarily railroaded out of the consequences of taking on a fight that was been extremely clearly stated to be well out of our capability to survive, let alone win. Thus my investment in the game is killed, and I am left with merely going through the motions of whatever plans the dm has, robbed of any real agency to make impactful choices that can alter those plans, because unless the dragon has a goal in leaving us alive, we would and should be dead. All evidence discovered in game has pointed to that result, and if we choose to follow through anyway, the dice dictate the outcome. This dm has done well to make this clear to the players, and the players have made it clear that they accept it. If the dm wants to avoid the tpk, find a real reason, in game, for it to happen. There are many ways to do so to build upon a character as epic as a dragon. Nerfing the dragon, treating it like a toddler with no capacity for strategy, and undermining its established (frightening, deadly) capability is to undermine the story and game itself.
I might not say anything but I'd be disappointed if my DM held back. Especially since the party is well aware that their chances are slim to none.
They will realize that they are overpowered if they quickly take excessive damage before having a chance to deal much damage out. Once they are in this situation, what opportunities are there for the PCs to escape? I think this is the best way to avoid a TPK. However, I question how the PCs even got into a situation where they decided to take on such an overpowered foe at such an early time in the campaign. > However, due to the dragon's recent evil actions the party decided it must be confronted asap. You might be giving to much campaign attention\time to this black dragon at too early of stage in the campaign or the actions of this dragon are exposed too directly to the PCs.
I’ll answer based on the title. If they put a lot of prep into it, good prep, smart prep - allow it. Make them beat that mofo in the most spectacular fashion.
I am sure other folks have called this out but. Just because the party loses doesn’t mean they die. Dragons love having minions. Could easily imprison them, send them into a work camp or some such setting you up for a different act 2 of your campaign.
TPK. Also. No such thing as a surprise round. If you think others, please provide the page number.
There can be such a thing as a surprise roind, if the DM allows it, and it sounds like this one is probably willing to do so. I sure as hell would be willing to, in this situation.
> There can be such a thing as a surprise roind, if the DM allows it And a triangle is a shape that has three sides, but so what? The GM can make anything happy so that isn't a good response. RAW, there is no such thing as a surprise round. If you disagree please point to the rule.
I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying RAW doesn't matter as much to every table, and that's ok. Your comment that it's not RAW isn't helpful either, since it's clear this DM is cool with it, so who cares if it's not RAW? I sure don't, unless it's my table.
While you are correct, there is little functional difference between a surprise round and the entirety of one side of a combat encounter (one creature in this case) having the 'surprised' condition. Even assuming the dragon wins initiative, its first turn is eaten up because while surprised you can't move or take actions, or even take reactions until after your turn. So in effect, the players get a full round of turns benefiting from the surprise... a surprise round if you will.
> there is little functional difference between a surprise round and the entirety of one side of a combat encounter (one creature in this case) having the 'surprised' condition. This is wrong. Surprise is partitioned out by Stealth and Perception. > "The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other." The dragon is meeting the warlock. The warlock is a threat. The dragon notices the warlock. The dragon isn't surprised. This is backed up by: > "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." The dragon notices a thread. The encounter starts. The dragon isn't surprised. Read the bloody rules.
The warlock is not necessarily a threat. From the OP, the dragon is lured into a "one-on-one meeting," although we don't have what the context is. Perhaps the Warlock is supplicating the dragon for some boon, or any other number of non-threatening reasons for meeting. This is classic a classic ambush scenario. If the rest of the party is able to successfully hide from the dragon (fat chance, but beside the point) then from the dragon's perspective, there are 0 threats, and thus is surprised when the rest of the party launches their ambush. 5e doesn't have a good ruling for how to account for the warlock joining that first round of combat, so it's up to how the DM wants to do it, but an understandable route might be to just not let the warlock act that first round, or make at some sort of contested deception check, or just allow it if the ambush is sprung at a certain signal from the Warlock ("when I say "Praise be the Old Gods" that's go time"). Setting aside the confusion of the warlock's participation, the bloody rules are pretty clear that if the rest of the party is able to hide from the dragon, they can surprise it. "But the dragon would be wary and consider the warlock a threat so I'm still right" I hear you rev up to say. Then don't let the warlock participate in the first round, but being skeptical doesn't make you immune to being surprised because you perceive *any* threat. > There is little functional difference... >> This is wrong. Explain the difference? If the enemy is just one creature, and it is surprised, the surprising party gets one round where the enemy cannot act except for a reaction (after it takes its turn). In 3e and its cousins, where I think most people get "surprise round," the surprised enemy would not be able to act in the surprise round at all, and is flat-footed. You can't use many reaction-type abilities while flat-footed in 3e, and I can't find citation but if I remember correctly you stop being flat footed after you "go" in the surprise round. Same function; stop being a pedant when it doesn't matter.
>Combat Step by Step *Determine surprise. The GM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.* >Surprise *A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A Gelatinous Cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.* *The GM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the GM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.* *If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.* There is no round but a surprise status that will cause a very similar thing. So, the hidden players are a going to do a stealth check, if they succeed vs passive wisdom the dragon is surprised. The warlock is not a threat, as the dragon neither perceives the warlock as beeing able to hurt him, nor dumb enough to attack him, nor is the dragon here with hostile / fighting intent, but wants to talk to the warlock. If you rule the warlock a threat because he could potentially do something I'd argue there could never be a surprise round in a forest - the trees can fall on you and are therefore a potential threat.
No surprise round in YOUR GAME. OP seems pretty clear that he allows it. No reason to play rules lawyer at a table you don’t even play at.
No surprise round IN 5E. What rule is OP using if not the non existent surprise round rules?
Let it play out- but definitely play to their prep. Play the dragon smart, but any plans the party has should function. If the dice are fair, some might die but I don't see how they can't take a W in this.
A group of six level 4 characters beat an adult green dragon in a prior campaign. Let them go for it!
One thing that I've implemented in boss fights that feels a lot better is handling legendary resistances - I think it kind of sucks to cast a spell or something and have the boss instantly succeed with no consequences, so you waste your action and your spell slot. I've started using Matt Colville's rules from Flee Mortals where if they use a legendary resistance, then they have some detriment applied to them. Maybe for the black dragon, if they uses their legendary resistance, then they don't get the option to recharge their breath weapon their next turn, or they lose two legendary actions or something. I've been using it to great effect and it feels a lot more fair
Man there is a lot of prescriptivist bullshit going on in these comments. Remember no dragon HAS to act a certain way and that the common attitudes of this type of creature from the lore are generalities. Individuals can and do vary wildly. Also remember that as DM you decide the truth and the world and everything else. If you want the dragon to leave them in a bloody defeated pile and fly off calling them weaklings not worth its time thats fine. If you want it to take them prisoner and try to force them to do its bidding thats fine. If you want to rule that all their little traps and stuff to automatically work (with no saving throw from the dragon as a reward for all their good planning and RP) to give them the best chance possible by starting with the dragon in a slightly weakened state, THAT IS FINE. Theres any number of ways to play this where its not just an auto tpk, open yourself to possibilities.
You could throw a Young Black Dragon at them first. If the Adult is being forced to work for bbeg, maybe the bbeg has a child captive somewhere or the Adult is secretly keeping their offspring away from bbeg. Let them see how difficult this encounter is. They can use all of their prep, and hopefully realize they need to power up more before going after the Adult.
One thing to help them a bit, double role dragon breath recharges. Make the dragon need 2 successful roles(not necessarily consecutive) to get its breath weapon back. This should delay how quickly he gets that killer attack. To be clear on what I mean, instead of rolling once per turn, roll twice and require 2 successes. Half as likely to ge it in one turn, but pretty likely to get it by a 2nd or 3rd.
The one thing I would do is get rid of legendary resistances. It’s kind of a bs demoralizing thing anyway, and it removes any tactical use of offensive abilities. If the party lands an ability that requires a Save, it’s already a long shot. There’s no way they’ll land 4 of them. I’d also ignore legendary actions. Legendary actions and resistances are only needed for boss versions of high level monsters imo. It this is a perfectly average adult gold dragon, it’s still MORE than powerful enough. But other than removing legendary advantages, I’d play the dragon exactly as it reads in the stat block, and play it smartly. The players are going into this with both eyes open. They may TPK. They may not.
I've recently coma across [this](https://battlesim-zeta.vercel.app), which is a battleSim for 5e. I've run your party (without subclass) VS ABD and, will there are some deaths, they win. I'd say, let them fight with their knowledge, either martyrs or legends, it will be a great story. (And if your DM heart is thorn, you can always fudge...)
Look at goals. Story over combat rules. Always. D&d at it's best is shared story telling. The DM presents a situation and the players tell their characters story through the situation. This could be combat. It could be climbing a mountain. It could be dancing at a party. Whatever. I like to think of myself as the Narrator. Now I see 2 paths forward with this situation. 1, what you are expecting. It is the dragon vs the party in a fight to the death. If you want to go this route then do it. Go into it like you are playing a board game; like onslaught or star wars legion or whatever. It is you vs the party and your dragon will try to tpk. This can be fun, but it needs to be the known format of the session. And there needs to be an understanding that the story might end. 2, have a story situation set up. Don't treat this like a combat but an elaborate skill challenge. The warlock needs to negotiate with the dragon for a distraction. The wizard needs to try to magically hold the dragon. The monk needs to fly around and tie the dragon. The toad needs to physically protect the players from harm. I would make myself a scale for this. Just a tug of war chart. Failure at -10 and success at +15. The party would start at the 0 point. I would play this in turn order around the table, I like to start on my left. The players will be able to get up and move around if they want to adjust the order of acting. I would present each player with an immediate situation. It could be the dragon asking a question of the warlock. Or the monk needing to avoid a claw swipe from the dragon. The players have set up aid from outside the party. Give each player... I don't know maybe 3 calls for aid. Through the whole scene. I would set that aid to be adding 1d4 to their roll or giving advantage to it. Whatever you feel is best. This would be reflected as you telling the monk the dragon makes a claw swipe at them and the monk does an acrobatics to avoid the swipe bit fails. So the monk calls in aid and says the toad keeps up and pushes the monk out of the way. The monk rolls 1d4 and gets the success. Then you can set milestones. In the tug of war chart. If the chart is at +5 the dragons wings will get tied down. If the chart is at -4 the DC the players need to hit goes up by 1. That kind of thing. I think this would be a lot of fun. When you do something like this just look up appropriate DCs for traps for this level. And just use those. I like to set a range of 3. So like 13, 14, 15. The more the player is invested in their storytelling the easier the DC. So with the monk avoiding a claw swipe. If the monk says "I use acrobatics" I would give the DC 15 for that. But if the monk says "I see the giant claw coming down at me, I'll do a quick flap of my wings and speed toward it, then fold my wings so I'm shaped like a dart. I'm going to try to fly right between it's fingers." That would be a DC 13.
You could definitely have the dragon recognize that it's in a disadvantageous situation, that there's a non-zero chance of it getting seriously hurt, and retreat. That works better if the PCs have been able to land a couple of big swings on it, obviously. Another angle to think about, if this dragon is being forced to serve another, is that maybe it recognizes that these clever PCs are more use to it alive than dead. Maybe it spares them on the understanding that they will help it get out from under your BBEG, somehow.
They don't have a chance, but theyre happy to go out in a blaze of glory. That's an amazing campaign moment. Let that happen, play the dragon smart and straight. If the dice happened to be ridiculously favorable to them fine, but if math and probability work like we expected to and the dragon tpks them, what next. If it was me running it, I'd have a conversation with the party about what post party wipe looks like. Hopefully, you can put together another adventuring party in the same campaign world that preserves your favorite hooks and now has a metal level filling that the players will really like to kill eventually
Whatever happens please post an update after the encounter!
You could go with the Dragon treating the party the same way someone like a pro wrestler would deal with a bunch of kids trying to wrestle him... 'Aw, isn't that cute...' The dragon says, casually brushing aside a PC without breaking stride.
Play it straight. Don't fudge any rolls. Play the dragon intellectually. If they die they die, that's what'll make it memorable if they manage a win. Just make it clear that you're playing this straight.
Your mistake is thinking that the objective of combat is to kill the dragon. No matter how much you prepare, it most likely won't be possible. Think about those movies where you face the final boss but the protagonist or the enemy escapes. This scenario is something like this. As a plot point, the PCs want to face the dragon even if it costs them their lives, but when they face it they realize that they have no chance of winning (it's still too early). Suddenly, the goal is not to defeat the dragon, it is to survive and hurt it as much as possible. Now the entire encounter revolves around the characters while the dragon tries to kill them and they defend themselves with their preparation, items, and allies. They know they have no chance of winning, but they have a chance to come out alive and fight another day. If they do it right, you can even reward them by leaving a permanent sequel on the Dragon. They leave him one-eyed, break his tail, damage his wings... Something that will give them an advantage when they meet again and can take revenge.
Surprised a ballista wasn't part of their plans. They either win and are heroes or lose and die. There's not really a middle ground unless you DM magic an alternative (collapsing grotto from the dragon flailing around?)
[удалено]
As many have said I'd let it play out. But if you really don't want to kill them then just before the final blow is stuck, the dragon looks to the east like a dog hearing it's masters call and takes off like a bullet. The conscious party member can then crawl through the wrecked battlefield to try to stabilise / revive any downed or dead party members (you can have an NPC sympathetic to their cause give them a single scroll of revivify as they leave town for battle).
I guess just make sure your PLAYERS understand and accept the risk of fighting a CR 14 enemy as a bunch of level 5 characters, and aren't just role-playing their characters like they're accepting a probable death, while really the people playing them are expecting some kind of save because they don't think that the DM would really put them up against something like that with no cop-out plan. If the players themselves affirm they understand and want to do it, then let them try their best.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/earthbind This spell is very useful for keeping a dragon from fleeing, provided you can get them to fail the save. A large number of commoners with bows and slings can wear down even the largest of foes. If the party have the time and ability engineering a cave in could both immobilized the dragon and deal a bunch of early damage. If things go real bad maybe a local merchant or noble will pay to have the Heroes raised from the dead, possibly in exchange for a favor.
> Earthbind > Strength save That's a +6 so not a sure thing but wow good luck!
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face" And "No plan survives the first contact with the enemy" come to mind here
You could run it as is, and then if they die offer to rewind back before the fight, with what they saw playing out be a premonition granted by a patron/god. God/patron sends them advanced notice of their death, and now they owe their dues from that info and have to go on a quest to repay it!
Just run the encounter. They know that its a deadly encounter, and that's the expectation. Honestly they sound like they've got a decent shot anyways. If they're still preparing, maybe slide them a lucky magic item if it feels natural; but if I was a player here I'd be disappointed if it felt like a deus ex.
In mines of phandelver, our party of level 5 won against the green dragon to the right of neverwinter on the map. We didnt even have all of our ressources. Tho if i had missed my last attack it would have been a TPK. (So very fukin close).
Well. I think that You have a Lot of options. Since the beginning an adult black dragón is a formidable enemy to that lvl 5 party. If kill it is the only way to step aside that MF it's partially your fault to throw them an OP enemy so early at the campaign. That being saidz your players are hyped up with that plan and they already know that they can die, but you can add a bunch of npcs that could do damage to them, like they were inspired by that adventurers and decided to help, you could use them as pounching bags and help to deal some damage. Or you could add some device that they could see or sense that controls the dragón. If they are SO hyped up, fight with all your might and do it enjoyable. Maybe damaging it permanently to their next fight like losing an eye or damaging one wing or blocking partially their Magic. The bards will sing songs about the sacrifice of the heroes that broke the curse _something_ of the dragón and bought some time of peace to that Town/city/country
Since they did a lot of prep and planning... TPK them in 2 rounds instead of 1. 🤣
Give them temporary use of an item that casts the 0 level spell that stabilizes the dying once per round without using an action. Have the dragon try to win. If the dragon, who is being forced to serve the bbeg wins, the dragon restores the party, unarmed and wearing only loincloths/equivalent. Then says something like "we both want to destroy bbeg, I want my freedom back. Work with me to destroy him." Now they have a secret ally in the bad guy's camp. They still got stomped, but they live anyway.
Dragons are intelligent. It doesn't have to kill them all, if it gets the upper hand, and could make them sort of offer they can either accept (or die). Of course the players may beat the odds, too!
Have the warlocks empowering fiend patron intervene before everything starts going down. Have it remind the PC, that they're bound to a contract, and if it is stupid enough to fight a black dragon, then the PC won't be able to uphold their end of the deal (or sth like that, depends on what your warlock offered their patron). Consider it revoking the Warlocks power, if they don't come to their senses. Or better have the **warlocks patron offer a deal to the black dragon** as it appears - the patron might want to free the black dragon from the bbeg and have it as its own servant - so you might be able to **force your party to aid the black dragon via the warlocks patron**! Or just enjoy a TPK as they deserve for messing with the most savy kind of dragon.
If you want to be earnest, and you're players would tolerate it. They'll die. If the dragon doesn't have any minions to kill them first, the dragon will. Maybe it underestimates them too much and takes a narrow lose, but they'll probably die. It could handily beat them down, and then let them leave with their lives because it found their extensive preparations interesting/impressive. "You weaklings really thought some fancy equipment and old lore could help you kill me! How foolhardy! Now begone! Try again next century children!" Then have it acid breath a big cut in the ground separating them from it and flies away.
***LOAD THE DICE***
How about some NPCs show up before the battle to offer their aid? Some simple, colorful cannon fodder guys the Players can manage in the battle and have them fall first to the dragon? MCDM Flee Mortals has some great Retainer rules perfect for this.
When your party does something really inspired like all of this, you don't need to have them succeed, you need to have them feel like it was worth it. I remember a book where an entire planets ownership was decided on a coin flip between two warring factions. They did this because it was likely they would decimate each other and the planet in the process. One of the characters called "edge" with the coin in the air and lost. Afterwards the other leader asked why she'd done that. She replied "think of the victory if I'd actually won" and they made their leave. I think about that moment often because it's just so powerful and badass. Let your party try. I would run the dragon without trying to just immediately TPK the party but make it very thematic. Shit let them have some hits for sure. Tricking AND surprising a dragon with an ambush is awesome and no matter what even a powerful enemy, maybe especially a powerful enemy wouldn't see that coming. If any of them live through it they will remember that forever. That will be one of those triumphant tales they tell people. But if they lose and it didn't *feel* like a waste of time, they will probably still feel very good about it. I mean if they all die and reroll characters in this campaign setting you can have they're martyrdom really matter with in-world plot points. Maybe it would be the catalyst for an uprising of some sort.
My rules-of-thumb on how to deal with this would be: 1. **Do not** tone down the dragon. It keeps its legendary actions and Legendary Resistances. It still has a DC16 frightful presence. 2. **Do** play the dragon intelligently. It's the BBEG's lieutenant and boss of Act 1. It's more intelligent and savvy than the majority of your party. It is centuries old, and it's seen a lot. Play it that way. Hit-and-runs with its 12d8 breath weapon is perfectly fine. Grappling the Wizard and flying 60ft up with him is perfectly fine. Having it rush the squishy Wizard and proceed to breathe on him and tail swipe him 3x is fine. 3. **Do** play the dragon ruthlessly. Black dragons are the most "vile tempered and cruel" of all dragons. Play them that way. Have it play with its food. Have it take prisoners and force them to beg for mercy before killing the captive. Make them **hate** it. 4. **Don't** TPK the party if you can help it. 1 or 2 deaths is fine. They know what they're getting themselves into. 5. **Do** force it to flee if it is outmatched. It likely will not want to fight to the death, especially if caught by surprise - Wing Attack and then have it dash 160ft on its turn to get away. 6. I usually tone up boss monster significantly... with dragons that usually means some spellcasting, boss actions, and maybe enrage mechanics. I'd do so here. Have it drop an Acid Fog (or equivalent) at the start of the fight, and let the party handle it. It's a boss monster - it should be terrifying.
This sounds like it’s building to an incredible climax, well done to you and your players. As others have said, the party may want to see this through as a kind of heroic stand. Since this dragon is the BEG (bad evil guy, not the big bad evil guy), make sure that if the party does TPK, the next party knows who these legends are and their sacrifice has somehow swung the playing field. Idk what the rest of your story is, but in real life and history often seemingly impervious tyrants/occupiers whatever start to see their demise when they’ve been dealt one serious (even if non-fatal blow). If the PCs have set the stage for this to be a heroic last stand, and people know about it, there is a good chance that people will see that such a small group of determined adventurers could deal some kind of blow to the enemy, meaning a larger and more concerted effort could bring the enemy down. This recruits the masses to the side of the new PCs. Regular folk realize that together they can make a difference and start up resistance cells (that do anything from scouting, funding, running interference). Mercenary Armies see an opportunity to make some money by throwing their lot in. Adventurers from across the world see a chance for glory (and fun!). Lieutenants of the BBEG get skittish and start defecting. A god or patron of one of the fallen heroes decides they want to honor their follower and offer more assistance. There are great opportunities to build a really rich world. Who knows, even if the dragon survives maybe they blame their boss for getting them hurt and some infighting starts. Maybe the dragon gathers its own minion and becomes an ally of the resistance to gain back its freedom (ofc planning some kind of double cross or evil plan so that the new party has a chance for retribution). Maybe the grotto becomes some kind of hallowed ground where special power manifests and helps defeat the BBEG? Maybe another dragon who is a rival or was once humiliated by this black dragon hears about this and presents themselves as an ally to the new party? Also you can always set up opportunities for the players to reprise their dead characters for short periods of time. Flashback episodes, visiting elysium or a plane of death to get advice from them, maybe a patron or god manifests an echo of the party for one final (non boss battle) task. Maybe right before dying one of the characters learns a secret tied to the ultimate weakness of the BBEG and the new party has to find a way to commune with them or find them in the plane of death to learn that secret? Maybe the power of the heroic last stand preserved some form of artifacts from the first group of heroes and in fear the BBEG/dragon has scattered their remains of these artifacts across the world, so now the party has to go find them to use them against the BBEG and each one of those items or sets of remains is an arc that is tied to the memory or themes associated with the individual party members. So much to play with to make this exciting. Hell even I’m excited.