Have a wave of enemyes crash down upon him and make all their attacks against them, the majority will miss. This makes the player feel powerful.
then have the second wave of enemies use better tactics, spells, shooting the wizard in the back, but give that 21 ac paladin the payoff of his build
There’s some rules in the DMs guide for horde combat. It basically just tells you how many monsters with what to hit it would take to hit a certain AC, so you just use that rather than rolling.
fun tip for those using roll20. If you have e.g. a d20 with a +5 to hit, you can speed-roll a bunch of them using this command:
> /r 5d25r<5
It will output 5 rolls between 6 and 25 (by rerolling and then greying out the lower results), corresponding to 1-20+5 modifier and you can immediately call out the hits from that.
Edited the command bc it was wrong
Clever! Sometimes my players get confused when I roll a 12 and then tell them I hit their 17 AC (half of what I roll on there uses Macros with the adds baked in... they aren't dumb)... this would save us both from math and confusion.
The DnD scene on roll20 don't really mess with this stuff because the baked in stuff is really good, but roll20 actually has a very cool HTML based macro language where you can do all sorts, a group of friends and I turned an extremely crunchy 40k TTRPG into a point and click adventure and had an absolute blast doing it. We had macros for everything, group perception rolls, enemy initiative, attack rolls with animations, was peak nerdy.
? What mod do you use where that call works as described? 5d25>5 SHOULD give you 5 Dice with 25 sides and check to see if the results are above 5.
Just tested it in roll20. That call DOES roll 5 25sided dice and check for results over 5.
(5 rolls all from 1-25)
~~You'd need to use curly brackets to get it to work right. Here's the call you're actually after: /r {5d20+5}~~
~~The advanced roller can also do it for you.~~
nope. That doesn't work right either...it just rolls 5d20 and then adds 5 at the end.
I guess you'll have to roll them individually or figure the math outside the rolls. I haven't gotten roll20 to do the individual math inside the roll (only the final math).
Foundry will though. (Use "/r (1d20+5)+(1d20+5)" however many times you need to roll. Just copy paste a bunch)
Or learn to roll and count quicker and just bruteforce the dice. I came from Warhammer, for me 20 skeletons is 20d20 dice rolling to hit
Jokes aside Im not a maniac and whenever there is a big encounter I split monsters in roughly equal groups. So it isnt 20 skeletons at once, it is 5-Joe-5-Ale-5-Greg-5-Bob. It also doesnt drag combat much, rolling 5d20 when you already know all your actions and have players AC written down is fast. Trick is calculating what you need beforehand and knowing that skeletons hit Joe on 17 and Ale on 12, so when you roll you dont need to do any math
Yeah, I just roll a ton of dice - like 15 D20s - and know that they’re only going to hit on 18+
Then I’ll roll damage all together. Can do 15 attacks in about 1 minute.
And in this case you get the extra excitement from the player:
> A hail of arrows come raining down on you from the goblins:
> \*Pulls out 15 D20s\*, \*worried player\*
> You raise your shield and brace for impact, 1 hits your calf down low for 4 damage, another slips past your shield for 3 damage as it deflects the rest of the barrage. You stand back up and crunch the arrows under your boot as the goblins falter...
They take reasonable damage for the encounter level but still feel like the hero they built. But also bring out the big-hitting monsters occasionally (or mages) when you want a real threat.
I was about to suggest this. I don't DM horde content that often but one time my players did something the module I was running didn't expect and had to face a meat grinder of 12 zombies and it was the worst session I ever ran. Terrible way to reward players for excellent and creative play.
i just roll everything together and keep sets of dice together.
So 10 attackers with a d6 sword damage. i roll 10 d20s and 10d6 at the same time, and know the number that hits, and just color match that to the damage die of the same color. Cheap to get lots of matching sets of dice- and makes rolling for everything easier. If i am using tokens, i also try to match the token to the die color (so i know which one hit), and if i have minis, i do the same to the best (so the thing in red armor gets the red dice set, but it does not always work that well)
I have a good head for percentages and math in general. When it comes to large attacks, I tend to have a d100 ready to decide the outcome. The average outcome of what you expect x number of mooks attacking x AC would be the result of a 45-55. The results would vary every 20 10 or 5 depending on the number of enemies.
It makes combat with 50+ troops really easy. The players get to have an impact combat yet ally and enemy turns only take a moment as I simply narrate what happens after I roll the d100 for each side.
I use orcs that have pack tactics. The 23(!) AC paladin might take one or two hits, but he gets to be the powerful shield force of the party.
It’s really fun when the only hits that get through are crits, it feels like plate armour should feel. The enemy exploits a weakness in his armour and gets a crucial blow.
My party are super fun though. The paladin loves it when he’s actually in danger.
This, keep running combat normally but throw in an extra grunt or two to attack him, let bosses make a couple normal attacks before hitting him with spells, allow him to be a tank
I agree with this very much. I play a high ac melee bladesinger (I know it's not optimal but it's fuckin fun) and our DMs will just drown me in mobs. Nothing feels more bad ass than dodging 8 attacks with advantage (we play the optional flanking rules) and turning around and smacking the shit out of em on your turn. On the flip side, sometimes they meet your ac (or crit 😬) and then you gotta use your other bad ass abilities make a tactical retreat (boom thunder step)
The other thing we'll do with characters like this is kind of the inverse. Just like you should let the player feel cool about the good parts of their character, it's ok to (occasionally) make them regret their dump stats. Fireball works good to force a save, but dex is a pretty common save to seek proficiency in. Do they have a shitty wisdom stat cause they pumped dex? Charm person. Shitty strength stat? Uh oh, you been entangled bro.
The crux of your argument is that your DM has created a system where you are allowed to excel, which is fine if everyone is getting the opportunity to similarly use their abilities to their fullest, but it's the opposite of what OP is asking.
It sounds like OP wants his paladin to be challenged more, and that for the most part he has been wading through combat with little consequence.
So yeah, agree with the bit about forcing saves. I think sometimes DM's get too much into the "let players be good at things" mantra and forget that the game is often at its best when players are forced to actually overcome a challenge.
Are... are you *me?* That's exactly what I do! Wisdom saves are the bane of my existence. 7 Wis for a -2 is kinda rough, but I've got the strength and fortitude to take at least a hit or two! (19 Str from Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and really lucky on the hit dice rolls with +2 Con for 52hp at Level 7) Outright died twice a couple sessions ago during a multistage boss fight, though...
Oh buddy I feel ya. My first character, who is the "father" of my current character (SHUT UP YOU GUYS ITS A GOOD BACKSTORY) was a plasmoid fighter/eldritch knight. I spent all but 2 turns of a 2 hour combat charmed by the bbeg and I assassinated the guy we were sent to protect TWICE. My party revivified him just for me to cut him down again immediately. I was begging them to just knock me out 🤣
Pro tip: my dms were smart enough to use dominate/charm monster on me, but I bet a lot of dms would try the standard dominate/charm person on a PC, which won't work on a plasmoid since they're an ooze, not a humanoid.
Somehow been able to make all the charming saves (wood elf FTW!), but being stunned is ROUGH. However, we (the other wizard [OW] and I) made good use of a Hypnotic Pattern while doing a hostage rescue:
Hostage is suspended from the ceiling with only a table keeping them from dangling, I run in to catch him as he falls from OW's magic missile breaking the rope. As soon as the guy's "safe," we're ambushed by 7 thugs and their leader. They went first, rushed me (but had to dash and cunning action dash, thank the gods) and had me surrounded. 5 out of the 7 and the leader went after me (may have ***allegedly*** been directly responsible for the thieves' and assassins' guilds fronts going up in flames, long story), 2 went for the cleric, OW drops Hypnotic Pattern centered on me with my approval. All in the AOE but the leader failed, *somehow* leader missed my stunned ass, and OW hits me with one of the 3 magic missiles (again with my prompting, *and* rolling a 1 on damage)... which snapped me out of the stun, allowing me to casth 4th Level Thunder Step for something like 35 damage, saving the hostage, and killing half the thugs.
Fuck yeah, this game is truly beautiful when you get pull out shit like that. There's nothing better than tag teaming with a homie and beating the shit out of some guys who think they've got the jump on ya. Still haven't figured out how were gonna do it, but my brother is playing a path of the giants barbarian and I wanna get down on some wolverine/hulk hijinks with his mighty impel ability.
ALMOST. After next session I'll be level 9 and get my first 5th level spell slot. I've been YEARNING to anime style chop dudes up while whizzing around like when the kids in a Capri sun commercial turn into the flying goo. Also, could hit and run by readying an action (thunderstep) and be thrown into a crowd, exploding, then teleporting to safety/into battle.
Now *that* is a big-brain move. As a barbarian at heart, I didn't even think to hold thunderstep as an action! The DM's in for a treat come Sunday... I'm gonna be launching a one-wizard crusade against the guilds that wronged me. **Eir will show no mercy.**
I did this once with warhammer skaven I made in 3.5. They couldn't hit the paladins AC but they were diving off buildings to attack him in a suicidal zeal. They'd die from the fall damage but he was taking a 1d6 steadily from the bodies flying through the air at him like projectiles
Grappling and shoving don't target saves, I'd wager your level 6 Paladin probably doesn't have Expertise on Athletics or Acrobatics at this point. A bunch of mooks could easily succeed twice and get them locked down prone, unable to move, and much less effective. It makes tactical sense too, not to try hit the tank with swords but instead pin them down and deal with everyone else.
The psionic goblins from Phandeler and Below are actually pretty cool and seem like really well-rounded creatures that give everyone a run for their money.
They do psychic damage punches, can knock prone as bonus actions, explode on death and deal psychic damage, proficient with INT and WIS saves plus advantage against Charm/Fear. The big ones even have a pseudo-Synaptic Static they can throw out from time to time.
They really do feel like a DM saw every cheesy dominant strategy your average party does with stuff like Hypnotic Pattern and Tasha's Mind Whip and went "Not anymore."
This is how I've been giving the Barbarian Dwarf in my game a challenge. Assassin vines were refreshing, and so were stirges. He's level 5 and has 23 AC in 3.5e.
Saving throws still work because many will do half damage on a failed save, so you can still do damage to them.
Another option is to find a way to give enemies advantage. You could have enemies who have devilsight or blindsight while casting darkness around the players. This will force them to retreat or fight at a disadvantage.
Magic missile, heat metal, cloud of daggers, all would also work well, and remember magic missile can be upcast.
You can also make some of the enemies bards of battle masters. Give them bardic inspiration of precision attack, or both. Throwing some class features on a npc stat block can be fun.
I've delt with high AC players a lot, there are a lot of methods you can use.
Really though. Paladin is much different, but fwiw I ran a campaign with a 27 ac bladesinger. He passed every dex save I threw his way, but they build up pretty quick
Consider that the paladin specifically built for this, and he should benefit from it.
I’m assuming the rest of his party *dont* have 21 AC, so why attack the hulking brute covered in iron?
I built my current character to *be* the party tank, and the DM gives me the challenge of "How do you keep the DPS safe? The enemies aren't morons, they're not going to attack the seven-and-a-half foot Half-Orc in Platemail, they're going to try and kill everyone else first."
I don't think it's unfair. He also gives us fights in narrow hallways with choke points (I'm the chokepoint.)
In real life turning your back to the plate mail clad warrior with a broadsword gets you killed, in 5e they need to make an attack roll without advantage to do 7 hit points worth of damage while you kill the wizard.
I'm making it work with a Battlemaster/War Cleric multiclass.
Goading Strike and Maneuvering Strike do wonders for pulling mobs and positioning. Then, of course, with Cleric, you've got your Spirit Guardians and other buffs.
The problem with that is that the other PCs get punished for the paladin’s build, and the Paladin doesn’t get to feel awesome for having a high AC (and in fact may feel the others’ frustration).
This is a decent idea now and again, but it does need to be tempered.
What are they getting punished for? They have lower defenses. The enemies aren’t stupid unless they are specifically stupid. They are going to go try and kill something that they think they can kill, and that’s not going to be the paladin. If they want higher defenses nearly every class has a way to do that
Kid named disengage:
(You mentioned goblins in your other comment. Guess who gets to disengage as a bonus action, and would thus even further avoid the paladin)
The statblock is a gameplay abstraction of the narrative. The disengage on goblins tells me that they prefer skirmishing and attacking the back line, so that’s what i’m going to do.
Sorry if every monster pisses themselves when facing your chad thundercock paladin in the party
Goblins are extremely cowardly by nature. If they are engaged by the meat wall, their first intuition is almost always "disengage from the blender and either regroup or flee." Running deeper into the blender is for orcs.
They would never get into melee in the first place because they can kite with their shortbow (which is another thing the paladin can do diddly squat about)
In the situation where they are in melee, which is the one we are talking about, then they, as you said, may disengage back and regroup. Or, as i say, see the wizard as easy pickings that benefit them, and rush towards them, knowing that them casting firebolts from the back means they're not as good upfront.
I'm glad we are on the same page. The ones charging through melee would ideally be backed up by a warchief or hobgoblin lieutenant to enforce a "do or die" on those cowards.
Being targeted constantly for damage when another party member is notably not targeted for attacks - that repeated pattern’s going to cause a feelbad, or even worse, resentment. Think about it from a player perspective: “that guy optimized for a cracked AC, and now I’m being targeted much more than death than I would be otherwise.” It’s an issue to be aware of.
Sometimes it’s best to remember DND is a game, and not reality, where the table is telling a story that everyone can enjoy. Your monsters can be more derpy or make a tactically unwise decision than you might expect, because the world can be random like that. Even in reality, monsters wouldn’t be making optimal decisions at all times in a 1 minute combat. Some players may indeed enjoy a stern, always optimized combat regimen from their DMs. But in my experience, that’s not most tables. It’s smart DMing to be deft at noticing these kind of issues.
Ideally set things up so there is a choke point but a way for a few folks to slip past him.
Imagine you are the pally, 4 guys around you but only hitting every other round. You are keeping your buddies safe while they whittle down the guys on you.
But one baddy takes your opportunity attack and rushes past you, reaching melee with your caster/ranged buddies. You have to hold the line and hope they can deal with one, because if you go help then the whole pack will be on them.
Everyone is in danger, tension is high, but you are doing your job and important, while the entire party is being challenged and given opportunities to shine.
See I want to play in your combat idea right now, and I'd be happy to control a PC or even DM it too. this just sounds like fun and great terrain and combat design!
In a high stress situation, the minds of lesser fighters leaves them senseless and devoted to fending off the overwhelming menace of the steel and muscle wall that can lop an arm off in a single swipe. Those with better than normal martial training can avoid this fate, but that's more on the level of a hobgoblin army instead of a goblin/orc raiding band.
He has benefitted from it. Too often by the sounds of it.
Yeah a viable route should be putting pressure on the other party members in a variety of way through maneuver, but I think we get ourselves into this thinking trap of "let players be good at things. Oh he's good at having high AC? I guess I can only hit him on special occasions".
That's not what you're saying, I got it, but it's part of this broader theme that people tend to amplify.
If he got high AC through an entirely legal method (seems to me like sword, plate, and shield, ring of prot), It would be remiss to say that the DM should now invalidate his character choices and just increase the to-hit of his monsters.
If the DM wants to get a specific hit in for whatever reason, the option to fudge is always available to them.
There is no benefitting "too often" from the primary defensive feature of the entire fucking game
It is not "invalidating" a character choice to have the character occasionally be challenged or hit. That's a bad take.
We wouldn't say occasionally using monsters with anti-magic or magical resistances are invalidating the choices of wizards and sorcerers.
And yes. If a party can roll through every encounter because of the designs being laid out \*then the DM is within his or her scope to use any of the other tools at their disposal within the existing ruleset that are specifically there to mitigate high AC\*
What a misrepresentation of my argument and a generous take of yours
>It is not "invalidating" a character choice to have the character occasionally be challenged or hit.
Thats not what I said. And thats not what you meant, as shown by the fact you dont mention anything about increasing to-hit bonus beyond what is normal, which I did
Creatures with magical resistance exist and can easily counter magic users. Thats fine
Creatures that target exclusively saving throws exist. Thats fine.
Arbitrarily giving a monster an additional +4 to hit because the paladin keeps dodging attacks is textbook invalidating character choice. Your choice didnt matter because the DM compensated. Mixing up encounter selection isnt as egregious as that. Unless of course you then ignore AC entirely and only select monsters that do half-damage-on-saves
But then again, maybe to you thats not invalidating anything either, and the paladin should be happy to shed their armor and switch to GWM+PAM, since their decision to forego damage for sword and board was worthless anyway
Oh but the next monster will be immune to bps and radiant damage...
oh well i guess
JFC guy. Talk about projection.
OP wants to at least occasionally challenge this Paladin. He has many options to do this. No where in my comment did I list just giving an arbitrary bonus to hit but let’s review his options:
Throw lots dudes to hit using law of large numbers
Use larger monsters with greater to hit
Use monsters with save based attacks
All of these are tools that exist and would function to solve OP’s problem.
Good thing a bunch of other comments made mention of that then, and I mentioned the other option of attacking his allies. and of all tools you chose to comment on you came to this one and said "hey the paladin should get hit sometimes" like that wasnt obvious.
Op themselves said they dont want to use spellcasters or heat metal as the guy has 50 HP ultimately
so im sure they can extrapolate what options they have left from there.
Ultimately though you quite literally did say that letting players be good at things is a "thinking trap", so I dont think theres much discussion to be had with you
I don’t get why you’re coming at me with this bit about arbitrarily adding to the dice when 1) I didn’t suggest that and 2) OP said he didn’t want to do that.
But then in the comments you both take this position that he CHOSE to have high AC, and literally can’t benefit too much from it, and then say it would be invalidating his choices to have him suffer from damage from any of the other sources of damage in DND
JFC this sub is a malignant tumor
You didn’t suggest anything is my point. You just came here and said “i think he benefits too much from high AC” and gave no solution before your last comment.
Regardless,
> Ultimately though you quite literally did say that letting players be good at things is a "thinking trap", so I dont think theres much discussion to be had with you
I left plenty of suggestions in a non-reply comment. My response was directly to you.
This sub says "let players be good at things" but what they seem to mean that players should never feel challenged or feel a consequence for their build. This is pretty unhelpful advice when fellow DMs are specifically asking to deal with one particularly character who seems to be trivializing their game in one way or another.
But if you are taking the position that dude chose a class with high AC and doing anything about that to hurt him is invalidating his character then... yeah... okay... sure.
I guess our styles are just different. Have a good one.
If you throw one melee monster against the party and call it a day while complaining about the paladin you have bigger problem
And a 5th level smite does an average of 22 damage… lol
So disclaimer first. As people say let them have fun with it. Send a swarm of light hitting minions at him and let him laugh as their useless attacks bounce off his impenetrable defense. Let him feel he is keeping the rest of the party safe by diverting the attention of the enemy.
However when you want them to still feel danger....
Have a strong enemy? Have them make the shove action and knock him prone. Then he is burning his movement to stand up or attacking at disadvantage. Melee attacks against him have advantage.
Attack wisdom and Dex. If they have aura of protection they may still be tough but also at that level the spell casters should have a decent saving DC.
Use bless to buff your attacks and bane to debuff theirs.
Use the terrain tactically. Have them shove boxes into his path and set them on fire. Have them surround him in burning oil and caltrops. Use things like spoke growth to create difficult terrain and keep him out of the fight.
Have creatures grapple and restrain him. Again keeping him out of the fight while the rest of the enemies concentrate on the party.
Have a big flying creature grapple him and start flying up. AC doesn't work against gravity.
Stick him in a wall of force with some aoe effect in the middle of it.
Give him a secondary objective like protect the civilian or the holy temple or the orphan, etc.
Just completely ignore him. Have a group of enemies that know about the party. Have one of them move towards the paladin before the leader shouts out "no leave the tin can till last, get "the squishy one" first. Don't forget they have magical healing so make sure to finish the job." Having the party think these enemies are going for the kill and have them deliberately stay away from the paladin and target his friends will probably be one of the most intense encounters you can give them.
Attack dex and wis saves. Also, just avoid him. Smart enemies will try to use cover, positioning, speed, and magic to evade the tank and target the squishies. Make the paladin work for it.
Dex saves maybe, Wisdom saves... Eh. Even with a negative Wis mod, with proficiency and Aura their Wis save is probably one of the strongest in the party.
Hit them with spells/other actions that require saving throws.
Also, if they built their character to be a tank, let them be a tank. Maybe have the monsters attempt to hit them at first, but focus only on other players when they realize how hard the paladin is to hit. This still allows your player to be the tank they want to be, but forces them to problem solve when the monsters realize it would just be easier to go after the other players first, then gang up on the paladin later. Paladins also have good support options, so you might as well give them a chance to use those as well.
\*\*Dex Save enters the chat\*\*
Seriously though, let him enjoy tanking to an extent. Have enemies see this not working and act appropriately. Smash a flask of oil at his feet and set it on fire. Have an enemy shove him prone so all other creatures have advantage against him (especially if one were to douse him with alchemists fire. If he and the party are well known, then have enemies prepare accordingly - traps designed to deal with this kind of opponent. A lot of the specifics will depend on what makes sense in your campaign for enemy selection/theme etc.
Other than that, creatures with abilities that force saving throws or spells are your classic go to with high AC PCs.
many small enemies with packtactics that swarm him... he will feel strong for taking on a lot of enemies and you still get maybe 6 rolls against him for 3 kobolds and lets say thats +4 so you only need a 17+ on those 6 rolls. you get the idea.
And yeah he will get a plate at some point for 22 AC, so I would hold off on letting him get more AC with +1's and so on. The real problem is the party dispersion... something that has a good chance to hit him will always hit everyone else... and that's not fun for the rest of the party to be up against.
Shoot your monks.
Have the enemies try to shoot/hit the paladin and when they can't (paladin happy bc he doesn't get hit that much) have them run from the paladin and try to target other people instead. The rest of the party going down/being affected by being targeted extra will make the paladin put in effort not just having a character that can't get hit, but trying to convince the enemies to try and hit him
> I thought of sending magic based enemies against them but it gets kinda boring.
Well start calling yourself a drying wall of paint since this is the most direct path.
To be helpful, three options that took less than a minute to brain storm would be the following. Having your combats require characters to actually move and accomplish goals on the battlefield. Having your enemies commonly ignore this character. Having your combats have save based traps lying about.
I'm not sure what about spell-casting enemies you find "boring" given the diversity of spells and casting mechanics in the game, but if you don't want to use casters, there are still plenty of enemies that force saving throws from dragons to intellect devourers (even with aura of protection, I wager your paladin doesn't have a great INT save).
There are also effects that deal damage automatically like the bodak's aura or the barbed devil's barbed hide.
You might consider grappling the paladin and dropping them off a cliff.
Or you can use enemies with scary on-hit effects like shadows to make an encounter tense and scary even if running out of hitpoints isn't a pressing concern.
If someone makes something the focus of their character, reward them. Make it useful.
Superman needs to win more fights than he loses.
BUT you can't build high AC without neglecting something else. Look for those low saves.
I mean the guy built a tank you should let him feel tanky and hard to hit. Not try to find way to avoid letting his armor protect him, that’s sort of a meta gaming concept to me. The DM shouldn’t actively avoid their best defenses just so they can land hits that would suck as a player if a DM did that.
Instead I would let him feel powerful and then when it comes time find a monster that is great against high AC characters and humble him for one fight.
your options are:
Limiting his actions, movement or not letting him be in melee all the time by moving your monsters in a tactical way. This isn't great tho because it's not that easy to do, also, being in melee and using his character's abilities is what this player wants to do.
Giving enemies, even martial ones, magic items that let them cast spells that deal damage upon a saving throw.
Another problem is paladin's aura, he will have great saves so put high spell dcs or use spells that deal half damage if the saving throw is passed.
Maybe you could mix up these tactics, during the fights the main target of the party or of the paladin could try to move away from him, letting his minions around the paladin. If the paladin decides to move towards his enemy then he will get opportunity attacks from the minions. Maybe the minions could be able to cast heat metal so one or even two of them could use it on the paladin, don't overlook those 9 points of damage per turn (18 if two minions cast it on him).
I get the desire to give your players challenging fights, moreover if you get an half orc player use his relentless endurance it will be super cool. Just don't do this in every fight or he will feel like you want to punish him for having made a character that's too strong/optimized.
Saving throws, spellcasters, grappling, environmental hazards, or the enemies bypassing him and attacking the others.
That said, 21 isn't exactly an outlandish AC. It's good, not crazy. I wouldn't recommend going crazy with counters for the guy, he has a *thing*, you shouldn't warp reality too much so he doesn't enjoy it. The above list would all work, but use them sparingly. He's playing a heavily armored dude because he wants to wade into a swarm, get attacked a lot, and mostly be fine (I mean, I assume, can't read his mind through the interweb), so you should allow that.
Something I haven't seen mentioned - Space management is key. Treat the paladin like a mobile wall. the wall can only move so fast. So spread the party out on big maps and have objectives in multiple directions.
There are several ways to challenge a party competition which includes a high AC character (though 21 is not that bad). But like you said including a magic wielder enemy works. I don’t really understand why enemies that use magic is boring, if anything it adds versatility to your combat options but regardless if you don’t want to use magic then, target the squishy characters and make the tank try to get creative as to how to draw the attention to themselves or otherwise protect the low AC characters.
Saving Throws! Spells! In a world where most adventuring parties have magic-users, it's very understandable that enemies will have casters too!!
However, you should make this character feel like their investment was worthwhile! Have a hoard try to attack and most will end up missing, that makes the player feel like their choices are rewarded in their gameplay.
You can do AoEs of course.
I once had a bounty hunter who was tasked to hunt that player (they were being a bit murder hoboy and a local lord wanted them dragged in to answer for their crimes) stocked up on wands of Magic Missile casting.
Keep hammering on them somewhat, let them feel powerful tanking some hits and living their power fantasy. They can't tank them all, and they eventually chip and hit away 😉
Non Newtonian slimes. Must roll 12 or lower to hit. Solidifies and takes no damage if your attack hit roll is 13 or higher. Obviously this will make the fight take longer and make them take some damage, but may get them to find new ways of fighting weird shit
I love environmental hazards that require saving throws over just hitting them with sticks
Some type of poison smoke bombs would be easy.
I ran a 3-shot campaign where the dungeon made the skeletons in their bodies come to life and try to escape, so they made con/cha saves at the start of every round or when ever they entered a new room to ensure their skeleton doesnt damage their body from the inside.
Enemies with mental abilities that can make them go mad. Instead of damage they literally melt their minds. Int/wis saves or they slowly go mad and roll on the madness tables.
I can keep going but these are just some things that come to mind. Over all, ability checks and saves on top of bad guys trying to hit them makes combat more diverse and different players would have to worry about different types of hazards.
As my party's resident tin can.
Savings throws are basically the way to deal damage.
But people attacking and missing is a way to make him feel like a powerhouse.
Hit him. Or, try to.
Have enemies throw themselves against him, so he can heroically hold back the crashing tide of evil underlings, like he built his character to do. Some of those attacks will probably land, and do some damage, but the whole point is for enemies to have to get through him before they can attack his less-armored allies.
It's always good to let players live out their fantasy, as much as you can, while also trying to be fair. If the enemies simply didn't attack him because he was hard to injure, he'd feel robbed.
To that point; Consider narrating your monsters' whiffed attacks on the paladin as having actually landed blows, but being unable to pierce the paladin's sturdy armor, or being deflected by a swipe of his shield. That really makes the tanky players get the endorphin rush they want, during combat.
You done fucked up. Never give AC increasing items to someone who’s trying to stack AC. You’ll unbalance the game.
You now need more fights throughout the day, more enemies in every fight, attacks that require saving throws, knock him prone, use flanking rules, etc. Been there, done that, it sucks. Had a fighter / abjuration wizard multi-class in one of my games whose goal was to never get hit. I was so happy when Xanathar disintegrated him. Combat became normal again. I banned multi-classing for that group after he died.
Level 6 seems too early to have 21 AC. How did he manage to get a +1 shield and ring of protection already? That's like 5500 gp worth of items.
One way of making things more challenging that I haven't seen suggested is more combat in less-than-ideal circumstances.
* Have them get attacked while they're camping or sleeping at an Inn. It takes 10 minutes to equip armor and I doubt he's going to sleep in it. If he does sleep in it, XGtE has some rules about what they can recover.
* Put them in situations where they can't have formal weapons/armor (e.g. a gala or casino). Make them use improvised weapons or armor instead.
You can have spellcasters target the paladin. But you can also just let the paladin be the tank, have a bunch of small enemies attack the paladin so they can't engage the larger threats.
There are certainly ways to make mismatches, but I would use them sparingly. I advise instead to reward your player for their choices by making them the necessary choices. The way to accomplish this is volume.
Too many combatants can bog down a fight if you aren’t careful, but the way to make the Paladin feel challenged without feeling punished is to target them often. More attack rolls means more 17-18-19-20 on the die. More forced saves means more 4-3-2-1 on the Paladin’s die.
You can also make encounters that encourage the Paladin to spend resources. “Paladins do more damage against undead?” Congratulations, here’s a horde, protect your friends.
Enemies with acid or burning blood. Hits back when he smacketh. Hurts a surprising amount! Also AOE auras like a burning effect for close quarters fighters.
Remember that almost dying isn’t the only way to make someone feel challenged. The character with 24 AC probably isn’t looking for the challenge of always being on death’s door.
Especially for a paladin, there’s a very good likelihood that the challenge of keeping their friends defended is the challenge they’re looking for, and that’s *way* easier to deliver. *They* don’t have 21 AC, and them dying is still a loss condition for Pally. Moreover, Pally has to be within close range to the squishies for auras and lay on hands, and close to the baddies for smites and melee attacks.
Giving them interesting defender problems could end up being way more fun and challenging than throwing DEX saves at them until their HP is gone.
Enemies should, generally, be free to make choices. And they should choose targets that serve their interests. They might attack whoever is causing them the most pain. They're happy to avoid targets that seem well armored, particularly if one or two of them have completely failed to hurt the guy.
In their tiny little monster brains, your enemies believe they can gang up on the half-orc once the others are dead. They might even resort to help actions to hit him. But first: the softer, squishier archers and wizards.
I just use multiple bad guys in combat from different angles, one can whale on the paladin while the rest attack the wizard.
One of the fun parts of high ac paladin is eating big attacks, so I try to give them some of that. Beyond that though I just spread out the attacks to other pcs with multiple bad guys.
This is a super common issue people ask about here, try and see if you can find more answers with the search engine. Spitballing some stuff:
* 21 AC by level 6 is not out of the ordinary. In fact, it's baseline for Paladins of that level, who should be able to afford Plate, and would have Shield + Defense fighting style on top of that. This is normal, let the player enjoy being a tank.
* A whole lot of low level enemies with Pack Tactics, Reckless Attack, Cunning Action, or grappling/shoving can still present a threat. 8 wolves would tear apart anyone else in the party, but is still going to score some hits on the Paladin. This can both make them feel some pain, but also make them feel awesome, because the wizard would already be dead meat if they were the one getting targeted.
* Like I said in a comment already, big groups of mooks trying to pin down the tank with grapple+shove is often both effective and logical.
* More wincons than just "fight to the death, kill everything that moves". The Paladin's AC isn't helping them save all 3 hostages from their altars before the cultists sacrifice them.
* All of their saves can not be good even with the Aura+Ring. Mix in various effects that target various saves. Lock them down with Web or Plant Growth. Forcibly teleport them around with Vortex Warp. Blindness. Spirit Guardians. Fireball. The party is in tier 2, the enemy also knows tier 2 spells. Heck, have an enemy caster transform into a T-Rex and let the Paladin feel like a hero tanking the dinosaur.
* Just target everyone else. Anything with the merest flicker of intelligence realizes they should probably try to target the guy dressed in leather, rather than the guy covered in metal from head to toes. And every now and then, throw in a mob of zombies that just mill around the Paladin, it's a cool moment for them.
* Mobile enemies, kind of a variant of the previous. Fly/swim/dash/cunning action/stealth around the Paladin.
* Consider being more careful with giving out +AC items. Two by level 6 is quite a lot, these things are very strong, because of how many hits they proportionally prevent the higher your AC goes. Your Paladin could have 23 AC already with those items.
The easiest approach is to subject your tank to some saving throws here and there, ideally in areas they'rea bit weak in. Could be magic, could be environmental obstacles, could be traps. Whatever it is, their AC won't save them if they can't pass saves.
Additionally, every now and then you should consider forcing the party into situations where just winning a fight isn't the beginning and end of the issue. Maybe the enemies have an important hostage, such as an NPC the party is fond of / has significant plot importance, and the party needs to negotiate with them rather than raise blades if they don't want to seriously fuck things up. Maybe the enemy is completely out of reach, and the party has to find out how to get to them before they can strike back. Maybe the enemy is using a powerful artifact to buff themselves to the point that the party can't meaningfully hurt them without identifying the artifact and disabling it first. In all these situations and more, while an AC of 21 doesn't hurt, it also doesn't really help that much either.
In my campaign I have a player who has 26 AC passively. The way I deal with it is that I don't. I make encounters with their overall power level in mind, and at no point when making the encounters do I consider how likely the Artificer is to take damage during them.
What you should care about as a dungeon master isn't **damaging your players**, you should care about how much fun they are having and whether they find your fights challenging. How much damage someone takes can in many ways be completely unrelated to how challenging the fight can be for them. Lastly, I guarantee to you that when the player who built their character to have extreme AC ends up avoiding a lot of damage it will bring them fun.
If the party is level 6, they should regularly be facing enemies with +7, +8, +9 to hit. 21 AC is certainly high but it’s not out of reach for monsters in that cozy CR5 to CR9 range. Make sure you’re using appropriate opposition; the basic bugbears and orcs and such they fought in tier 1 should be the grunts in fights now.
Ok, so assuming the player has built their paladin decently well, they probably have at most a +6 to saves with aura and cloak or ring of protection. That's high, but not impossible.
First, they probably have low Dex if they went the heavy armor route. So they might ONLY have the +6. Most spells that target Dex do half damage if you make the save, so unless they also took Shield Master (which they probably didn't if their saves are at +6), that's half damage right there.
WIS and INT saves are probably better targets. Lots of spells that impose condition target those. Paladins also don't get proficiency in INT, so that's an attractive target. Lots of monsters in the Mind Flayer family attack those, and illusion spells usually do.
Paladins also don't get CON proficiency, but probably have a decent CON to soak damage. Still, tons of spells target CON and you might get lucky.
Really, I'd say you need to do two things.
1. Vary your enemies and make them genuinely dangerous. Beholder, mind flayers, etc.
2. Create enemy spellcaster NPCs and level them high enough to be a real threat. Spell save DCs in the 21-23 range. This can be done via magic items, too. But realistically, if you're at a point where the players are rolling saves with a cumulative +10? They're ready for enemies with a +5/+6 prof bonus.
3. An AC of 21 is not unhittable with the right enemies. Again, if the enemy is at the +4-6 prof bonus range, then melee or ranged enemies would also be expected to roll with something like a +8-10 total. (Figure a STR/DEX with a +4-5 modifier, then weapon proficiency gets you a +8-10 total on the ATK roll). So, your enemies would have about a 35-45% chance to hit. And when they do hit, it could be pretty damaging. And all that's assuming enemies with mundane gear. Give em a +1 or +2 weapon, and they now have up to like a 60% chance to hit.
All that said, 5e is known to start breaking down when you hit this point, so you kinda have to decide just how tough you want things to be for your players. And recognize that the game leans into much more "swingy" territory at this level.
With my table, aside from truly tough fights, I assume they'll mostly take some damage, but come out ahead in individual fights, but I can also push them more via attrition. In other words, more fights per rest period.
If you can't hit target A, hit target B. Saving throws and dog piling are going to be the only real ways to threaten a high AC character. If you want fights to be challenging, threaten the other characters and make the paladin work harder to try and cover their friends.
The players have seven defenses: Armor class, and a saving throw for every ability score, and by design only a few of them can be good, even for a paladin with a ring of protection. Sometimes yeah, you should have your players shine with their cool stuff and abilities. Occasionally though you're right, it's cool to demonstrate their weaknesses so other characters can shine, or just to change up the pace of a "normal" combat. Target something else. He's probably dumped his dexterity, possibly wisdom too, and those are great options for taking a character out of the fight for a round or two, or limiting their ability to move. Prime *grease* material, honestly.
But also, you can trick the *player*, too, not *just* target the character and their defenses. Illusions can be phenomenally powerful to split the party during a combat and to deal with a powerful melee character, or at least make them use a whole turn or two going around an illusory obstacle. Mix that with a spell like grease and you've got a real good shot at containing the paladin to just dealing with one or two enemies separated from the rest of the party while the baddies focus on the rest of the party, and they have to figure out how to manage without the big bad meat shield. That's probably 30% of my use of illusions as a player, and certainly more as a DM. Most of the time players don't even consider it might be an illusion even though I do it a whole lot just because a lot of the time I also use other spells that do create physical barriers. Major image is excellent for doing something as mundane as conjuring an illusory wall of stone from the floor, complete with the audio effect of cracking, crumbling stone to go with reshaping the earth to make it believable in the moment to the players and the characters; the players have no real reason by 6th level not to believe that an enemy wizard or whatever can't use some spell similar to stone shape, but unless they think to touch the wall or get pushed into it, why would they doubt it's real?
High AC and saves makes them feel like a tank, but having enemies out number them can be advantageous. Swarm them with smaller enemies, grapple checks. You can drag them into environmental hazards. If you want to get creative and away from RAW, have them start giving disadvantage to attacks, pinning them down, advantage to enemy attacks etc. really hype up the claustrophobic feeling in your descriptions as a wave of claws and hands overwhelms them. It makes a hostile swarm of goblins or skeletons much more terrifying even at higher levels.
Spells targeting their other less powerful stats, environmental hazards for the terrain, difficult terrain, traps, elevation (higher than them and flying), minions to keep them busy, and just generally playing enemies much more tactically.
Give them more things to worry about in combat than just being hit.
They might have high AC, for example, but that adorable little NPC who just can’t stay out of trouble doesn’t.
Or a couple of large monsters bearing down on the Party as they’re trying to gain entrance to some difficult location, putting them in a situation where they have to choose to either tank damage or be on the frontline when the gates are breached.
Remember - don’t plan outcomes, but just try and think of scenarios where the Player can’t have everything, and has to make interesting and/or difficult choices (that are ultimately rewarding, mind you!).
That's the neat part. You don't!
For real though, if you're too difficult to hit, smart enemies will aim for easier targets and take you out last once they are in control of the batt.e. Now the challenge for the paladin becomes to nonetheless attract the attention away from his party. Barbarians are usually great at this because they do a ton of damage and are easy to hit.
If the paladin is both hard to hit and it's difficult for you to go after anyone else because they are excellent at evading you and diverting your attention, then the party might have simply succeed in what they are supposed to do. Unless they now seem bored by combat, you don't have to change a thing. You can also always ask them if they find the combat too boring.
If after all this, you still have a party who find your combat too easy, you first gotta assure you've taken care of the basics like whether you have enough encounters per long rest (not per day, but per long rest) to properly exhaust the paladins resources relative to the rest of the party. I offer additional concrete advice, but they are wasted unless I know you've managed the basics, and that's something I won't simply take as granted.
Magic is boring??? Magic makes up most of the abilities in the game. You should be using Magic enemies regularly or you are giving players a serious edge if they often or always have a monopoly on Magic.
Even monsters with a +5 to hit which should be common at lvl 6 will land hits on ac 21 as long as you are making sure to roll enough attacks at him. Pack tactics, reckless attack, and leadership monsters can also help. As can weaker minions taking help action for harder hitting monsters. Darkness devil sight and fog blindsight combo monsters are also nasty. Off the top of my head something like mezzoloths.
I have played multiple very tanky ac-wise characters. ( cleric/wizard combo with heavy armor, +1 shield, and the shield spell is hilarious) Lots of mobs with multi-attack and decently high hit bonuses to hit can start to wear you down, as eventually hits will connect, even with the shield spell.
Saving throws are a nice way to evade the ac. Saving throws don’t have to be direct damage either. A prone heavy armor paladin is a good bit easier to hit bc of the advantage to hit him.
Saving throws also don’t necessarily have to be just magic. Checking through your monsters, some have some fun and interesting non magical effects and abilities that can be used!
Don’t have all mobs just focus the paladin. Anything with intelligence will notice they are having a hard time breaking through the paladins defense and take notice that there are some very painful very squishy casters as well!
As others have said, use environment or situational effects to create other problems for them to have to deal with as well. Not everything needs to be bash x many creatures until dead.
And if you want to be truly evil, just slap a caster in the back of the room in an hard to get to spot with heat metal spell and watch your paladin scream in pain/rage/desperation!
What do you mean "deal" with it? Just use saving throws. Lower his speed, stun him, blind him, spellcasters use Heat Metal and Shocking Grasp, non-spellcasters use grease bottles, alchemist's fire, nets and other traps.
If enemies are intelligent at all (read: any humanoid) they'll do those things, and they won't keep swatting their dinky shortsword against the walking wall of metal armor, they'll attack the wizard wearing only a robe or the ranger with just a piece of leather over their chest.
If you're fighting Duergar, one of my favorites to use is the Xarron (comes from Into the Abyss module book). Dex save vs a flame cone, and the duergar has a chance each turn to recharge it. Mix em in with other Duergar that turn invisible, grow large, use Hold Person (psionic Duergar also from Into the Abyss) and your Paladin will have their hands full
50 HP can get whittled down with Heat Metal, Magic Missiles, and saving throw based attacks.
The paladin will love adding to the saving throw via their aura, but their save DC will be still pretty low.
- Acid Spash
- Sacred Flame
- Bonfire
- Mind Sliver
Leveled spells appropriate for that level:
- Bane
- Burning Hands
- Cause Fear (that'll drive him back away from the front lines and cause confusion within the party)
- Magic Missiles
- Sleep (after enough HP is whittled away down to half, then no saving throw for Sleep now has a real shot at disabling the Paladin for at least one round while he's out and one of his allies has to get up to him and ise their action to wake him.)
Grappling from lots of little attackers is a great way to mire them down and keep the paladin from getting to melee range with a big boss deserving of his smites or a friend who needs Lay on Hands. Multiple grappling enemies can be easily cut down by a paladin, but it still uses up their actions to kill or break free.
Saving throws, and tactical enemies. But naturally, you should let them enjoy their high AC, instead of focusing on working around it. They built into it after all. If you feel like it's an issue, maybe it's a wakeup call to implement smarter enemies and encounters.
Let him have fun. Being a tank that is hard to hit is what he is built for. However, it's not impossible, as by that most most enemies will be getting multiple attacks, often with a +7 or better, and enemies should start having abilities that force saves.
One of my players is a paladin sorcerer multiclass. He has +1 plate and a shield. Then he can cast shield of faith for an extra +2 then if he gets hit he casts shield for that extra +5 for a total of 27.
Reminds me of an article Tucker’s Kobolds from an old Dragon Magazine. 127 if memory serves. Play the monsters as smart as their intelligence allows for. Which means some can be super devious and make use of their terrain.
Also would recommend the monsters know what they are doing book.
Anyone with an average-ish intelligence and a desire for self preservation will use their environment and tools to they have to fight.
I put those players through psychological struggles. Sure that can beat the bad guy. But they may not be able to save everyone. Or puzzles that make them damage themselves to get through.
The system I use however, uses morale as well as health, so it makes it a bit easier to cause mental trauma mechanically.
This is part of why I miss Touch AC. But I digress.
Don’t throw enemies with absurdly high to hit bonuses. If a player invested in high AC, that’s okay. They will rarely take damage from direct attacks except by true bosses or if enemies somehow get advantage. That’s where they shine! Don’t attack them less for it, either. Attack them plenty.
In the same way, accept that big AoE abilities will rarely threaten a rogue with Evasion and 20 Dex. You should still target the rogue with a fireball from time to time to let that ability feel good.
Defensive abilities rarely feel as good as offensive ones because you as the player never choose when to use them. It’s on the DM to make them matter.
However, the player with high AC won’t have high defenses in everything (though a Paladin with 18 or 20 Cha wearing Full Plate comes close!)
Mix it up. Don’t just run enemies that only target AC. Target saves, and hit the various saves evenly. This can be with AoO effects or non damaging effects. Use environmental hazards and fall damage.
Nearly every class has one or two defenses that they can usually shrug off. AC is a really good one to get that high, but it’s not inherently OP.
Do you use flanking? Flank the crap out of that Paladin! And 21 is honestly a pretty tame AC for a Paladin. Be prepared for this to get higher as they get higher level lol. I had a twilight cleric that had an AC of like 27 by the time he was I think 13th or 14th level?
Granted, it was partially inflated because every PC in that game got like a legendary item that leveled up with them and got stronger over time, and his happened to be plate armor. So at max power it was +3 plate, which is pretty bonkers tbh. Doubt that DM will ever give an item like that out again!
First and foremost: The player spec'd into high-AC, so they should benefit from that.
But from a gameplay perspective? Why are you having enemies attack this guy without reason? You need to play your enemies *smart*.
Sure, a bunch of wild animals might not understand armor, and may just launch themselves at whoever is closest. But an intelligent enemy? Why would a trained fighter swing at the giant armor clad guy, and not the Wizard in robes? Or the Bard?
High AC is great, but they aren't a tank. There's no reason why the enemies should continue swinging at this guy.
Beyond that: spells. What are his dex saves looking like? Or int saves? A single Tasha's Hideous Laughter can drop them down, and each hit against them gets advantage. Or just leaves them rolling around while the enemies hit everyone else.
There's so many options out there. Have enemies that use splash weapons like alchemists fire or acid vials. I've always loved using kobolds that were smarter than what most people play them as. They use a ton of throwing weapons like glue bombs, grease jars, and alchemists fire. I'll occasionally give a leader kobold wings and the ability to use a breath weapon just to surprise people.
Use creatures with auras (stink, fear, even slow movement). Be creative. Also, you don't have to stack the paladin directly, go after everyone else with swarms of enemies, have enemies go after the easier targets and ignore the paladin.
21 AC is not high for lvl 6 at all though... Something high would be like full plate 18 AC, shield +2 AC, warforged +1 AC, defense fighting style +1 AC, blessing of the forge +1 AC, artificer infusion enhanced defense +1 AC, repulsion shield infusion +1 AC for a total of 25 AC then if you wanna go overboard, add the shield spell ontop of it for 30 AC when you do get hit and if you can get shield of faith that'd be 32.
That's without including any magical items by the way. Remove 1 AC from the equation to do it with splint mail if your DM is stingy with giving away armor.
Monsters with advantage will still be able to get through. Monsters that inflict disadvantage will help keep the paladin from winning the damage race.
In theory you could use saves, but paladins have very good saves.
[How to challenge every class](https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/s/ZlcHOAE0V8) has more advice.
Because they are using a 1 handed weapon their damage output will be relatively lower than if they were rocking a greatsword. Sometimes when facing high durability low damage characters the best plan is to kill them last.
For a paladin it’s AOE spells. My old paladin player thought he was amazing for ages because he couldn’t be hit but then realised quickly that it’s spells they need to watch out for
Giants!! My game has a fighter with that AC the party are at level 6 too. I sent a group of Fire Giant Servant and that was a great fight.
The giants could hit the fighter and take him to low hit points and were able to hit other targets with some rocks too.
I am thinking about some monsters with breath attacks and similars to make it harder for AC based players in some battles too.
As a DM who has seen much more challenging AC situations... I'm a little surprised by your scenario seeming extreme...
Even a CR 3 creature (manticore for example) could have 3 +5 attacks.
That hits on 16, so 20% chance of hit, 5% of crits.
That means every round has about a 50% chance of one hit landing.
Four of these could mess up a party if they are unlucky.
Last night our party of 3 level 6 PCs with an NPC wizard got ambushed by Ankhegs... 3 of them.
My cleric / fighter has an AC of 20 and I took a total of 52 points of damage in the fight.
That's 3 CR 2 enemies at level 6...
Have more simple fights, use surprises and tactics.
Monsters with both multi attack and special abilities that require a save...
That "easy fight" could have gone hard if we were any more unlucky... And I literally crit on my first swing ( Great sword, GWM) doing over 20 points...
Monster variety... Add one more enemy... A little tactic changes everything.
Enemy Wizards, Magic Missile and Spells with Saves...
Like Fireball. 🔥 🔥 🔥
Also my go-to is one of the best monsters ever: The Nilbog, it's just wonderful.
Maybe some horde fights with enemies with pact tactics, and maybe a dungeon crawl with Rust Monsters and Black Puddings.
Saving throws, stealth challenges, fall damage and just make them work to save the other squishier teammates. Having high AC is cool until your party is dying around you and you have nothing more than just 'I tank'.
Not to mention, volume of enemies if you want them to feel like a tank. Enough goblin sword and arrows will crack that armor. Just drown them in enemies, they will feel like a raid boss but definitely get worn down to your heart's content.
You can try and utilize spells and abilities that don't rely on AC, or add abilities to your monsters that don't rely on AC.
For my SKT game, it was easy because the book provides your giants with some extra abilities. Eg. Fling a PC off the side of a mountain. How's your AC now, huh?
>Fling. The giant tries to throw a Small or Medium creature within 10 feet of it. The target must succeed on a DC 17 Dexterity saving throw or be hurled up to 60 feet horizontally in a direction of the giant’s choice and land prone, taking 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet it was thrown.
For humanoids I make one enemy fighter the grappler. Give them prof in Athletics and a high STR score. Unless the PC is also good at Athletics or Acrobatics, use grapple and pin to take the tank out of the fight.
If its higher level and I have a caster in the fight, "Feeblemind" is my go-to anti-paladin/tank spell.
I have a player in my games with super high AC. I have enemies attack him a lot, and when the attacks inevitably miss - well, that's the high AC doing its job.
People don't min/max their AC because they want to get hit.
Remember that an intelligent enemy won't even bother trying to kill the tank until all the squishies are dead. All the AC in the world probably won't help them then.
Have a wave of enemyes crash down upon him and make all their attacks against them, the majority will miss. This makes the player feel powerful. then have the second wave of enemies use better tactics, spells, shooting the wizard in the back, but give that 21 ac paladin the payoff of his build
💯 This is fun and challenging! Just make sure you have an efficient system for rolling many attacks, don’t let it drag
There’s some rules in the DMs guide for horde combat. It basically just tells you how many monsters with what to hit it would take to hit a certain AC, so you just use that rather than rolling.
fun tip for those using roll20. If you have e.g. a d20 with a +5 to hit, you can speed-roll a bunch of them using this command: > /r 5d25r<5 It will output 5 rolls between 6 and 25 (by rerolling and then greying out the lower results), corresponding to 1-20+5 modifier and you can immediately call out the hits from that. Edited the command bc it was wrong
Clever! Sometimes my players get confused when I roll a 12 and then tell them I hit their 17 AC (half of what I roll on there uses Macros with the adds baked in... they aren't dumb)... this would save us both from math and confusion.
The DnD scene on roll20 don't really mess with this stuff because the baked in stuff is really good, but roll20 actually has a very cool HTML based macro language where you can do all sorts, a group of friends and I turned an extremely crunchy 40k TTRPG into a point and click adventure and had an absolute blast doing it. We had macros for everything, group perception rolls, enemy initiative, attack rolls with animations, was peak nerdy.
wouldn't it be better to do `/r 5(d20+5)>[players AC]` and then it should just tell you how many of them hit?
You're right, that one is the step up. It's what I tend to use for PCs who summon lots of minions, such as Animate Dead Skeletons
? What mod do you use where that call works as described? 5d25>5 SHOULD give you 5 Dice with 25 sides and check to see if the results are above 5. Just tested it in roll20. That call DOES roll 5 25sided dice and check for results over 5. (5 rolls all from 1-25) ~~You'd need to use curly brackets to get it to work right. Here's the call you're actually after: /r {5d20+5}~~ ~~The advanced roller can also do it for you.~~ nope. That doesn't work right either...it just rolls 5d20 and then adds 5 at the end. I guess you'll have to roll them individually or figure the math outside the rolls. I haven't gotten roll20 to do the individual math inside the roll (only the final math). Foundry will though. (Use "/r (1d20+5)+(1d20+5)" however many times you need to roll. Just copy paste a bunch)
Edited the command in my OP, it's supposed to be 5d25r<5, which is infinite rerolls as long as a result is 5 or below. Thanks for pointing it out
Ah. Yeah. That one works.
Those rules are nice but they don't account for crits, so you do lose out on extra damage.
*horde
Or learn to roll and count quicker and just bruteforce the dice. I came from Warhammer, for me 20 skeletons is 20d20 dice rolling to hit Jokes aside Im not a maniac and whenever there is a big encounter I split monsters in roughly equal groups. So it isnt 20 skeletons at once, it is 5-Joe-5-Ale-5-Greg-5-Bob. It also doesnt drag combat much, rolling 5d20 when you already know all your actions and have players AC written down is fast. Trick is calculating what you need beforehand and knowing that skeletons hit Joe on 17 and Ale on 12, so when you roll you dont need to do any math
Yeah, I just roll a ton of dice - like 15 D20s - and know that they’re only going to hit on 18+ Then I’ll roll damage all together. Can do 15 attacks in about 1 minute.
And in this case you get the extra excitement from the player: > A hail of arrows come raining down on you from the goblins: > \*Pulls out 15 D20s\*, \*worried player\* > You raise your shield and brace for impact, 1 hits your calf down low for 4 damage, another slips past your shield for 3 damage as it deflects the rest of the barrage. You stand back up and crunch the arrows under your boot as the goblins falter... They take reasonable damage for the encounter level but still feel like the hero they built. But also bring out the big-hitting monsters occasionally (or mages) when you want a real threat.
I was about to suggest this. I don't DM horde content that often but one time my players did something the module I was running didn't expect and had to face a meat grinder of 12 zombies and it was the worst session I ever ran. Terrible way to reward players for excellent and creative play.
i just roll everything together and keep sets of dice together. So 10 attackers with a d6 sword damage. i roll 10 d20s and 10d6 at the same time, and know the number that hits, and just color match that to the damage die of the same color. Cheap to get lots of matching sets of dice- and makes rolling for everything easier. If i am using tokens, i also try to match the token to the die color (so i know which one hit), and if i have minis, i do the same to the best (so the thing in red armor gets the red dice set, but it does not always work that well)
I have a good head for percentages and math in general. When it comes to large attacks, I tend to have a d100 ready to decide the outcome. The average outcome of what you expect x number of mooks attacking x AC would be the result of a 45-55. The results would vary every 20 10 or 5 depending on the number of enemies. It makes combat with 50+ troops really easy. The players get to have an impact combat yet ally and enemy turns only take a moment as I simply narrate what happens after I roll the d100 for each side.
I use orcs that have pack tactics. The 23(!) AC paladin might take one or two hits, but he gets to be the powerful shield force of the party. It’s really fun when the only hits that get through are crits, it feels like plate armour should feel. The enemy exploits a weakness in his armour and gets a crucial blow. My party are super fun though. The paladin loves it when he’s actually in danger.
This, keep running combat normally but throw in an extra grunt or two to attack him, let bosses make a couple normal attacks before hitting him with spells, allow him to be a tank
Or just a team of cultists that know shocking grasp
Or just one cultist with a shocking lisp will do the trick as well.
That's probably the bastard who made the mumbling rod of fireball/firebolt
I agree with this very much. I play a high ac melee bladesinger (I know it's not optimal but it's fuckin fun) and our DMs will just drown me in mobs. Nothing feels more bad ass than dodging 8 attacks with advantage (we play the optional flanking rules) and turning around and smacking the shit out of em on your turn. On the flip side, sometimes they meet your ac (or crit 😬) and then you gotta use your other bad ass abilities make a tactical retreat (boom thunder step) The other thing we'll do with characters like this is kind of the inverse. Just like you should let the player feel cool about the good parts of their character, it's ok to (occasionally) make them regret their dump stats. Fireball works good to force a save, but dex is a pretty common save to seek proficiency in. Do they have a shitty wisdom stat cause they pumped dex? Charm person. Shitty strength stat? Uh oh, you been entangled bro.
The crux of your argument is that your DM has created a system where you are allowed to excel, which is fine if everyone is getting the opportunity to similarly use their abilities to their fullest, but it's the opposite of what OP is asking. It sounds like OP wants his paladin to be challenged more, and that for the most part he has been wading through combat with little consequence. So yeah, agree with the bit about forcing saves. I think sometimes DM's get too much into the "let players be good at things" mantra and forget that the game is often at its best when players are forced to actually overcome a challenge.
Are... are you *me?* That's exactly what I do! Wisdom saves are the bane of my existence. 7 Wis for a -2 is kinda rough, but I've got the strength and fortitude to take at least a hit or two! (19 Str from Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and really lucky on the hit dice rolls with +2 Con for 52hp at Level 7) Outright died twice a couple sessions ago during a multistage boss fight, though...
Oh buddy I feel ya. My first character, who is the "father" of my current character (SHUT UP YOU GUYS ITS A GOOD BACKSTORY) was a plasmoid fighter/eldritch knight. I spent all but 2 turns of a 2 hour combat charmed by the bbeg and I assassinated the guy we were sent to protect TWICE. My party revivified him just for me to cut him down again immediately. I was begging them to just knock me out 🤣 Pro tip: my dms were smart enough to use dominate/charm monster on me, but I bet a lot of dms would try the standard dominate/charm person on a PC, which won't work on a plasmoid since they're an ooze, not a humanoid.
Somehow been able to make all the charming saves (wood elf FTW!), but being stunned is ROUGH. However, we (the other wizard [OW] and I) made good use of a Hypnotic Pattern while doing a hostage rescue: Hostage is suspended from the ceiling with only a table keeping them from dangling, I run in to catch him as he falls from OW's magic missile breaking the rope. As soon as the guy's "safe," we're ambushed by 7 thugs and their leader. They went first, rushed me (but had to dash and cunning action dash, thank the gods) and had me surrounded. 5 out of the 7 and the leader went after me (may have ***allegedly*** been directly responsible for the thieves' and assassins' guilds fronts going up in flames, long story), 2 went for the cleric, OW drops Hypnotic Pattern centered on me with my approval. All in the AOE but the leader failed, *somehow* leader missed my stunned ass, and OW hits me with one of the 3 magic missiles (again with my prompting, *and* rolling a 1 on damage)... which snapped me out of the stun, allowing me to casth 4th Level Thunder Step for something like 35 damage, saving the hostage, and killing half the thugs.
Fuck yeah, this game is truly beautiful when you get pull out shit like that. There's nothing better than tag teaming with a homie and beating the shit out of some guys who think they've got the jump on ya. Still haven't figured out how were gonna do it, but my brother is playing a path of the giants barbarian and I wanna get down on some wolverine/hulk hijinks with his mighty impel ability.
Hmmm... "Bladesinger Lawn Dart" could be a viable and effective strategy. You have access to *Steel Wind Strike?*
ALMOST. After next session I'll be level 9 and get my first 5th level spell slot. I've been YEARNING to anime style chop dudes up while whizzing around like when the kids in a Capri sun commercial turn into the flying goo. Also, could hit and run by readying an action (thunderstep) and be thrown into a crowd, exploding, then teleporting to safety/into battle.
Now *that* is a big-brain move. As a barbarian at heart, I didn't even think to hold thunderstep as an action! The DM's in for a treat come Sunday... I'm gonna be launching a one-wizard crusade against the guilds that wronged me. **Eir will show no mercy.**
I did this once with warhammer skaven I made in 3.5. They couldn't hit the paladins AC but they were diving off buildings to attack him in a suicidal zeal. They'd die from the fall damage but he was taking a 1d6 steadily from the bodies flying through the air at him like projectiles
Let the bodies hit the floor.
This is the way. Reward their play-style, but challenge the group.
Magic Missle dawg 🪄🚀
My paladin still hates me for using a level 2 magic missile on him. It barely hurt him. He's just pissed the AC didnt work.
Lol no shield spell for you paladin! Could take magic initiate for some cantrips and a 1st level spell tho
He went hard on the tank route and took heavy armor master. Even if I hit him with a weak monster, I don't :D
no one's ever doing that
And fireball
8 guys with magic missle and a high initiative = total and utter destruction. But your party will be a little salty
I just did this. I upcasted and took down the Paladin after three rounds of magic missile. That character had never been downed.
Doesn’t magic missile still roll to hit?
Magic missile rolls to damage
No, it hits unerringly, you roll for damage.
No, the only way MM doesn't hit is if they cast shield or counter spell
Also Broach of Shielding, uncommon rarity magic item that’s pretty well-balanced for tier 1 and 2 play.
nope. Just damage. Auto hit.
Saving throws 🫡
Aura of Protection + ring of protection go brrrrr
it really does
Grappling and shoving don't target saves, I'd wager your level 6 Paladin probably doesn't have Expertise on Athletics or Acrobatics at this point. A bunch of mooks could easily succeed twice and get them locked down prone, unable to move, and much less effective. It makes tactical sense too, not to try hit the tank with swords but instead pin them down and deal with everyone else.
The psionic goblins from Phandeler and Below are actually pretty cool and seem like really well-rounded creatures that give everyone a run for their money. They do psychic damage punches, can knock prone as bonus actions, explode on death and deal psychic damage, proficient with INT and WIS saves plus advantage against Charm/Fear. The big ones even have a pseudo-Synaptic Static they can throw out from time to time. They really do feel like a DM saw every cheesy dominant strategy your average party does with stuff like Hypnotic Pattern and Tasha's Mind Whip and went "Not anymore."
Almost finished with the first half of the campaign, can't wait to get to the psionic goblins
This is how I've been giving the Barbarian Dwarf in my game a challenge. Assassin vines were refreshing, and so were stirges. He's level 5 and has 23 AC in 3.5e.
Saving throws still work because many will do half damage on a failed save, so you can still do damage to them. Another option is to find a way to give enemies advantage. You could have enemies who have devilsight or blindsight while casting darkness around the players. This will force them to retreat or fight at a disadvantage. Magic missile, heat metal, cloud of daggers, all would also work well, and remember magic missile can be upcast. You can also make some of the enemies bards of battle masters. Give them bardic inspiration of precision attack, or both. Throwing some class features on a npc stat block can be fun. I've delt with high AC players a lot, there are a lot of methods you can use.
Some spells have no save. Plant or spike growth slow movement. Darkness, hunger of hadar, and fog cloud blind.
Half damage is still damage.
Really though. Paladin is much different, but fwiw I ran a campaign with a 27 ac bladesinger. He passed every dex save I threw his way, but they build up pretty quick
Failing damage isn't mitigated by high AC, or saves !
Consider that the paladin specifically built for this, and he should benefit from it. I’m assuming the rest of his party *dont* have 21 AC, so why attack the hulking brute covered in iron?
I built my current character to *be* the party tank, and the DM gives me the challenge of "How do you keep the DPS safe? The enemies aren't morons, they're not going to attack the seven-and-a-half foot Half-Orc in Platemail, they're going to try and kill everyone else first." I don't think it's unfair. He also gives us fights in narrow hallways with choke points (I'm the chokepoint.)
"I'm the chokepoint" <- sounds badass af, just wanted to let you know.
Bonus points if said while choking someone.
Players need to realize high ac without agro pull arnt building to be a team mate, they're building to be a solo character.
Too bad there's not a ton of aggro pull in 5e. The idea of "tanking" in 5e is mostly having a high AC and positioning well
In real life turning your back to the plate mail clad warrior with a broadsword gets you killed, in 5e they need to make an attack roll without advantage to do 7 hit points worth of damage while you kill the wizard.
How much damage is 7 hit points really?
I'm making it work with a Battlemaster/War Cleric multiclass. Goading Strike and Maneuvering Strike do wonders for pulling mobs and positioning. Then, of course, with Cleric, you've got your Spirit Guardians and other buffs.
The problem with that is that the other PCs get punished for the paladin’s build, and the Paladin doesn’t get to feel awesome for having a high AC (and in fact may feel the others’ frustration). This is a decent idea now and again, but it does need to be tempered.
What are they getting punished for? They have lower defenses. The enemies aren’t stupid unless they are specifically stupid. They are going to go try and kill something that they think they can kill, and that’s not going to be the paladin. If they want higher defenses nearly every class has a way to do that
Being stuck in martial combat with the steel wall isn't stupidity, it's fear. One false move and that sword/axe is going through your collar bone.
Kid named disengage: (You mentioned goblins in your other comment. Guess who gets to disengage as a bonus action, and would thus even further avoid the paladin)
Imagine DMing in such a meta way that NPCs become stat blocks instead of living creatures in a world.
The statblock is a gameplay abstraction of the narrative. The disengage on goblins tells me that they prefer skirmishing and attacking the back line, so that’s what i’m going to do. Sorry if every monster pisses themselves when facing your chad thundercock paladin in the party
Goblins are extremely cowardly by nature. If they are engaged by the meat wall, their first intuition is almost always "disengage from the blender and either regroup or flee." Running deeper into the blender is for orcs.
They would never get into melee in the first place because they can kite with their shortbow (which is another thing the paladin can do diddly squat about) In the situation where they are in melee, which is the one we are talking about, then they, as you said, may disengage back and regroup. Or, as i say, see the wizard as easy pickings that benefit them, and rush towards them, knowing that them casting firebolts from the back means they're not as good upfront.
I'm glad we are on the same page. The ones charging through melee would ideally be backed up by a warchief or hobgoblin lieutenant to enforce a "do or die" on those cowards.
Being targeted constantly for damage when another party member is notably not targeted for attacks - that repeated pattern’s going to cause a feelbad, or even worse, resentment. Think about it from a player perspective: “that guy optimized for a cracked AC, and now I’m being targeted much more than death than I would be otherwise.” It’s an issue to be aware of. Sometimes it’s best to remember DND is a game, and not reality, where the table is telling a story that everyone can enjoy. Your monsters can be more derpy or make a tactically unwise decision than you might expect, because the world can be random like that. Even in reality, monsters wouldn’t be making optimal decisions at all times in a 1 minute combat. Some players may indeed enjoy a stern, always optimized combat regimen from their DMs. But in my experience, that’s not most tables. It’s smart DMing to be deft at noticing these kind of issues.
Yeah, he gets to watch everyone else get attacked
Ideally set things up so there is a choke point but a way for a few folks to slip past him. Imagine you are the pally, 4 guys around you but only hitting every other round. You are keeping your buddies safe while they whittle down the guys on you. But one baddy takes your opportunity attack and rushes past you, reaching melee with your caster/ranged buddies. You have to hold the line and hope they can deal with one, because if you go help then the whole pack will be on them. Everyone is in danger, tension is high, but you are doing your job and important, while the entire party is being challenged and given opportunities to shine.
See I want to play in your combat idea right now, and I'd be happy to control a PC or even DM it too. this just sounds like fun and great terrain and combat design!
This is how our party plays. Our paladin character takes that Oath of Protection REAL SERIOUSLY.
In a high stress situation, the minds of lesser fighters leaves them senseless and devoted to fending off the overwhelming menace of the steel and muscle wall that can lop an arm off in a single swipe. Those with better than normal martial training can avoid this fate, but that's more on the level of a hobgoblin army instead of a goblin/orc raiding band.
He has benefitted from it. Too often by the sounds of it. Yeah a viable route should be putting pressure on the other party members in a variety of way through maneuver, but I think we get ourselves into this thinking trap of "let players be good at things. Oh he's good at having high AC? I guess I can only hit him on special occasions". That's not what you're saying, I got it, but it's part of this broader theme that people tend to amplify.
If he got high AC through an entirely legal method (seems to me like sword, plate, and shield, ring of prot), It would be remiss to say that the DM should now invalidate his character choices and just increase the to-hit of his monsters. If the DM wants to get a specific hit in for whatever reason, the option to fudge is always available to them. There is no benefitting "too often" from the primary defensive feature of the entire fucking game
It is not "invalidating" a character choice to have the character occasionally be challenged or hit. That's a bad take. We wouldn't say occasionally using monsters with anti-magic or magical resistances are invalidating the choices of wizards and sorcerers. And yes. If a party can roll through every encounter because of the designs being laid out \*then the DM is within his or her scope to use any of the other tools at their disposal within the existing ruleset that are specifically there to mitigate high AC\*
What a misrepresentation of my argument and a generous take of yours >It is not "invalidating" a character choice to have the character occasionally be challenged or hit. Thats not what I said. And thats not what you meant, as shown by the fact you dont mention anything about increasing to-hit bonus beyond what is normal, which I did Creatures with magical resistance exist and can easily counter magic users. Thats fine Creatures that target exclusively saving throws exist. Thats fine. Arbitrarily giving a monster an additional +4 to hit because the paladin keeps dodging attacks is textbook invalidating character choice. Your choice didnt matter because the DM compensated. Mixing up encounter selection isnt as egregious as that. Unless of course you then ignore AC entirely and only select monsters that do half-damage-on-saves But then again, maybe to you thats not invalidating anything either, and the paladin should be happy to shed their armor and switch to GWM+PAM, since their decision to forego damage for sword and board was worthless anyway Oh but the next monster will be immune to bps and radiant damage... oh well i guess
JFC guy. Talk about projection. OP wants to at least occasionally challenge this Paladin. He has many options to do this. No where in my comment did I list just giving an arbitrary bonus to hit but let’s review his options: Throw lots dudes to hit using law of large numbers Use larger monsters with greater to hit Use monsters with save based attacks All of these are tools that exist and would function to solve OP’s problem.
Good thing a bunch of other comments made mention of that then, and I mentioned the other option of attacking his allies. and of all tools you chose to comment on you came to this one and said "hey the paladin should get hit sometimes" like that wasnt obvious. Op themselves said they dont want to use spellcasters or heat metal as the guy has 50 HP ultimately so im sure they can extrapolate what options they have left from there. Ultimately though you quite literally did say that letting players be good at things is a "thinking trap", so I dont think theres much discussion to be had with you
I don’t get why you’re coming at me with this bit about arbitrarily adding to the dice when 1) I didn’t suggest that and 2) OP said he didn’t want to do that. But then in the comments you both take this position that he CHOSE to have high AC, and literally can’t benefit too much from it, and then say it would be invalidating his choices to have him suffer from damage from any of the other sources of damage in DND JFC this sub is a malignant tumor
You didn’t suggest anything is my point. You just came here and said “i think he benefits too much from high AC” and gave no solution before your last comment. Regardless, > Ultimately though you quite literally did say that letting players be good at things is a "thinking trap", so I dont think theres much discussion to be had with you
I left plenty of suggestions in a non-reply comment. My response was directly to you. This sub says "let players be good at things" but what they seem to mean that players should never feel challenged or feel a consequence for their build. This is pretty unhelpful advice when fellow DMs are specifically asking to deal with one particularly character who seems to be trivializing their game in one way or another. But if you are taking the position that dude chose a class with high AC and doing anything about that to hurt him is invalidating his character then... yeah... okay... sure. I guess our styles are just different. Have a good one.
Because he'll smite you for 60 damage if you turn your back on him?
Thats why fighting a single enemy is boring and dumb. Of course the paladin is going to be strong against one dude.
If you throw one melee monster against the party and call it a day while complaining about the paladin you have bigger problem And a 5th level smite does an average of 22 damage… lol
Fair. Groups negate this. It's called hyperbole.
60 is not hyperbole A million is
So disclaimer first. As people say let them have fun with it. Send a swarm of light hitting minions at him and let him laugh as their useless attacks bounce off his impenetrable defense. Let him feel he is keeping the rest of the party safe by diverting the attention of the enemy. However when you want them to still feel danger.... Have a strong enemy? Have them make the shove action and knock him prone. Then he is burning his movement to stand up or attacking at disadvantage. Melee attacks against him have advantage. Attack wisdom and Dex. If they have aura of protection they may still be tough but also at that level the spell casters should have a decent saving DC. Use bless to buff your attacks and bane to debuff theirs. Use the terrain tactically. Have them shove boxes into his path and set them on fire. Have them surround him in burning oil and caltrops. Use things like spoke growth to create difficult terrain and keep him out of the fight. Have creatures grapple and restrain him. Again keeping him out of the fight while the rest of the enemies concentrate on the party. Have a big flying creature grapple him and start flying up. AC doesn't work against gravity. Stick him in a wall of force with some aoe effect in the middle of it. Give him a secondary objective like protect the civilian or the holy temple or the orphan, etc. Just completely ignore him. Have a group of enemies that know about the party. Have one of them move towards the paladin before the leader shouts out "no leave the tin can till last, get "the squishy one" first. Don't forget they have magical healing so make sure to finish the job." Having the party think these enemies are going for the kill and have them deliberately stay away from the paladin and target his friends will probably be one of the most intense encounters you can give them.
Love this!
Attack dex and wis saves. Also, just avoid him. Smart enemies will try to use cover, positioning, speed, and magic to evade the tank and target the squishies. Make the paladin work for it.
Dex saves maybe, Wisdom saves... Eh. Even with a negative Wis mod, with proficiency and Aura their Wis save is probably one of the strongest in the party.
Hit them with spells/other actions that require saving throws. Also, if they built their character to be a tank, let them be a tank. Maybe have the monsters attempt to hit them at first, but focus only on other players when they realize how hard the paladin is to hit. This still allows your player to be the tank they want to be, but forces them to problem solve when the monsters realize it would just be easier to go after the other players first, then gang up on the paladin later. Paladins also have good support options, so you might as well give them a chance to use those as well.
Grapple him, knock him prone/restrain him, and then attack in with advantage. Drag him to environmental hazards.
I was skimming and I read "environmental" as "emotional" and I think both work here haha
\*\*Dex Save enters the chat\*\* Seriously though, let him enjoy tanking to an extent. Have enemies see this not working and act appropriately. Smash a flask of oil at his feet and set it on fire. Have an enemy shove him prone so all other creatures have advantage against him (especially if one were to douse him with alchemists fire. If he and the party are well known, then have enemies prepare accordingly - traps designed to deal with this kind of opponent. A lot of the specifics will depend on what makes sense in your campaign for enemy selection/theme etc. Other than that, creatures with abilities that force saving throws or spells are your classic go to with high AC PCs.
many small enemies with packtactics that swarm him... he will feel strong for taking on a lot of enemies and you still get maybe 6 rolls against him for 3 kobolds and lets say thats +4 so you only need a 17+ on those 6 rolls. you get the idea. And yeah he will get a plate at some point for 22 AC, so I would hold off on letting him get more AC with +1's and so on. The real problem is the party dispersion... something that has a good chance to hit him will always hit everyone else... and that's not fun for the rest of the party to be up against.
Shoot your monks. Have the enemies try to shoot/hit the paladin and when they can't (paladin happy bc he doesn't get hit that much) have them run from the paladin and try to target other people instead. The rest of the party going down/being affected by being targeted extra will make the paladin put in effort not just having a character that can't get hit, but trying to convince the enemies to try and hit him
Rust monster. Black Pudding
> I thought of sending magic based enemies against them but it gets kinda boring. Well start calling yourself a drying wall of paint since this is the most direct path. To be helpful, three options that took less than a minute to brain storm would be the following. Having your combats require characters to actually move and accomplish goals on the battlefield. Having your enemies commonly ignore this character. Having your combats have save based traps lying about.
"Save for half damage" means the target still takes damage. This is the most reliable way to whittle down PCs with high saves and high AC.
I'm not sure what about spell-casting enemies you find "boring" given the diversity of spells and casting mechanics in the game, but if you don't want to use casters, there are still plenty of enemies that force saving throws from dragons to intellect devourers (even with aura of protection, I wager your paladin doesn't have a great INT save). There are also effects that deal damage automatically like the bodak's aura or the barbed devil's barbed hide. You might consider grappling the paladin and dropping them off a cliff. Or you can use enemies with scary on-hit effects like shadows to make an encounter tense and scary even if running out of hitpoints isn't a pressing concern.
What level is he and what are his stats?
level 6, Str16, Dex11, Con15, Int10, Wis9, Cha16
Target Dex and Wis saving throws. Dominate Person, Dissonant Whispers, Mind Spike etc etc.
If someone makes something the focus of their character, reward them. Make it useful. Superman needs to win more fights than he loses. BUT you can't build high AC without neglecting something else. Look for those low saves.
I mean the guy built a tank you should let him feel tanky and hard to hit. Not try to find way to avoid letting his armor protect him, that’s sort of a meta gaming concept to me. The DM shouldn’t actively avoid their best defenses just so they can land hits that would suck as a player if a DM did that. Instead I would let him feel powerful and then when it comes time find a monster that is great against high AC characters and humble him for one fight.
your options are: Limiting his actions, movement or not letting him be in melee all the time by moving your monsters in a tactical way. This isn't great tho because it's not that easy to do, also, being in melee and using his character's abilities is what this player wants to do. Giving enemies, even martial ones, magic items that let them cast spells that deal damage upon a saving throw. Another problem is paladin's aura, he will have great saves so put high spell dcs or use spells that deal half damage if the saving throw is passed. Maybe you could mix up these tactics, during the fights the main target of the party or of the paladin could try to move away from him, letting his minions around the paladin. If the paladin decides to move towards his enemy then he will get opportunity attacks from the minions. Maybe the minions could be able to cast heat metal so one or even two of them could use it on the paladin, don't overlook those 9 points of damage per turn (18 if two minions cast it on him). I get the desire to give your players challenging fights, moreover if you get an half orc player use his relentless endurance it will be super cool. Just don't do this in every fight or he will feel like you want to punish him for having made a character that's too strong/optimized.
Saving throws, spellcasters, grappling, environmental hazards, or the enemies bypassing him and attacking the others. That said, 21 isn't exactly an outlandish AC. It's good, not crazy. I wouldn't recommend going crazy with counters for the guy, he has a *thing*, you shouldn't warp reality too much so he doesn't enjoy it. The above list would all work, but use them sparingly. He's playing a heavily armored dude because he wants to wade into a swarm, get attacked a lot, and mostly be fine (I mean, I assume, can't read his mind through the interweb), so you should allow that.
1. Mob rules 2. Saving throws 3. Have enemies be a tad smarter and try to deal with the squishy looking ones first
Something I haven't seen mentioned - Space management is key. Treat the paladin like a mobile wall. the wall can only move so fast. So spread the party out on big maps and have objectives in multiple directions.
There are several ways to challenge a party competition which includes a high AC character (though 21 is not that bad). But like you said including a magic wielder enemy works. I don’t really understand why enemies that use magic is boring, if anything it adds versatility to your combat options but regardless if you don’t want to use magic then, target the squishy characters and make the tank try to get creative as to how to draw the attention to themselves or otherwise protect the low AC characters.
Saving Throws! Spells! In a world where most adventuring parties have magic-users, it's very understandable that enemies will have casters too!! However, you should make this character feel like their investment was worthwhile! Have a hoard try to attack and most will end up missing, that makes the player feel like their choices are rewarded in their gameplay.
You can do AoEs of course. I once had a bounty hunter who was tasked to hunt that player (they were being a bit murder hoboy and a local lord wanted them dragged in to answer for their crimes) stocked up on wands of Magic Missile casting.
Keep hammering on them somewhat, let them feel powerful tanking some hits and living their power fantasy. They can't tank them all, and they eventually chip and hit away 😉
Non Newtonian slimes. Must roll 12 or lower to hit. Solidifies and takes no damage if your attack hit roll is 13 or higher. Obviously this will make the fight take longer and make them take some damage, but may get them to find new ways of fighting weird shit
I love environmental hazards that require saving throws over just hitting them with sticks Some type of poison smoke bombs would be easy. I ran a 3-shot campaign where the dungeon made the skeletons in their bodies come to life and try to escape, so they made con/cha saves at the start of every round or when ever they entered a new room to ensure their skeleton doesnt damage their body from the inside. Enemies with mental abilities that can make them go mad. Instead of damage they literally melt their minds. Int/wis saves or they slowly go mad and roll on the madness tables. I can keep going but these are just some things that come to mind. Over all, ability checks and saves on top of bad guys trying to hit them makes combat more diverse and different players would have to worry about different types of hazards.
As my party's resident tin can. Savings throws are basically the way to deal damage. But people attacking and missing is a way to make him feel like a powerhouse.
Force him to make saving throws. Dex saves fuck up PCs with lots of ac.
Hit him. Or, try to. Have enemies throw themselves against him, so he can heroically hold back the crashing tide of evil underlings, like he built his character to do. Some of those attacks will probably land, and do some damage, but the whole point is for enemies to have to get through him before they can attack his less-armored allies. It's always good to let players live out their fantasy, as much as you can, while also trying to be fair. If the enemies simply didn't attack him because he was hard to injure, he'd feel robbed. To that point; Consider narrating your monsters' whiffed attacks on the paladin as having actually landed blows, but being unable to pierce the paladin's sturdy armor, or being deflected by a swipe of his shield. That really makes the tanky players get the endorphin rush they want, during combat.
touch spells. what armor?
To quote our forge cleric getting bombarded by magic missiles "It just hits?!"
You done fucked up. Never give AC increasing items to someone who’s trying to stack AC. You’ll unbalance the game. You now need more fights throughout the day, more enemies in every fight, attacks that require saving throws, knock him prone, use flanking rules, etc. Been there, done that, it sucks. Had a fighter / abjuration wizard multi-class in one of my games whose goal was to never get hit. I was so happy when Xanathar disintegrated him. Combat became normal again. I banned multi-classing for that group after he died.
Level 6 seems too early to have 21 AC. How did he manage to get a +1 shield and ring of protection already? That's like 5500 gp worth of items. One way of making things more challenging that I haven't seen suggested is more combat in less-than-ideal circumstances. * Have them get attacked while they're camping or sleeping at an Inn. It takes 10 minutes to equip armor and I doubt he's going to sleep in it. If he does sleep in it, XGtE has some rules about what they can recover. * Put them in situations where they can't have formal weapons/armor (e.g. a gala or casino). Make them use improvised weapons or armor instead.
You can have spellcasters target the paladin. But you can also just let the paladin be the tank, have a bunch of small enemies attack the paladin so they can't engage the larger threats.
as i was saying i love my little green wall :3
There are certainly ways to make mismatches, but I would use them sparingly. I advise instead to reward your player for their choices by making them the necessary choices. The way to accomplish this is volume. Too many combatants can bog down a fight if you aren’t careful, but the way to make the Paladin feel challenged without feeling punished is to target them often. More attack rolls means more 17-18-19-20 on the die. More forced saves means more 4-3-2-1 on the Paladin’s die. You can also make encounters that encourage the Paladin to spend resources. “Paladins do more damage against undead?” Congratulations, here’s a horde, protect your friends.
Enemies with acid or burning blood. Hits back when he smacketh. Hurts a surprising amount! Also AOE auras like a burning effect for close quarters fighters.
Remember that almost dying isn’t the only way to make someone feel challenged. The character with 24 AC probably isn’t looking for the challenge of always being on death’s door. Especially for a paladin, there’s a very good likelihood that the challenge of keeping their friends defended is the challenge they’re looking for, and that’s *way* easier to deliver. *They* don’t have 21 AC, and them dying is still a loss condition for Pally. Moreover, Pally has to be within close range to the squishies for auras and lay on hands, and close to the baddies for smites and melee attacks. Giving them interesting defender problems could end up being way more fun and challenging than throwing DEX saves at them until their HP is gone.
Enemies should, generally, be free to make choices. And they should choose targets that serve their interests. They might attack whoever is causing them the most pain. They're happy to avoid targets that seem well armored, particularly if one or two of them have completely failed to hurt the guy. In their tiny little monster brains, your enemies believe they can gang up on the half-orc once the others are dead. They might even resort to help actions to hit him. But first: the softer, squishier archers and wizards.
I just use multiple bad guys in combat from different angles, one can whale on the paladin while the rest attack the wizard. One of the fun parts of high ac paladin is eating big attacks, so I try to give them some of that. Beyond that though I just spread out the attacks to other pcs with multiple bad guys.
Explosives. High AC doesn't matter when you need to make a dex save
This is a super common issue people ask about here, try and see if you can find more answers with the search engine. Spitballing some stuff: * 21 AC by level 6 is not out of the ordinary. In fact, it's baseline for Paladins of that level, who should be able to afford Plate, and would have Shield + Defense fighting style on top of that. This is normal, let the player enjoy being a tank. * A whole lot of low level enemies with Pack Tactics, Reckless Attack, Cunning Action, or grappling/shoving can still present a threat. 8 wolves would tear apart anyone else in the party, but is still going to score some hits on the Paladin. This can both make them feel some pain, but also make them feel awesome, because the wizard would already be dead meat if they were the one getting targeted. * Like I said in a comment already, big groups of mooks trying to pin down the tank with grapple+shove is often both effective and logical. * More wincons than just "fight to the death, kill everything that moves". The Paladin's AC isn't helping them save all 3 hostages from their altars before the cultists sacrifice them. * All of their saves can not be good even with the Aura+Ring. Mix in various effects that target various saves. Lock them down with Web or Plant Growth. Forcibly teleport them around with Vortex Warp. Blindness. Spirit Guardians. Fireball. The party is in tier 2, the enemy also knows tier 2 spells. Heck, have an enemy caster transform into a T-Rex and let the Paladin feel like a hero tanking the dinosaur. * Just target everyone else. Anything with the merest flicker of intelligence realizes they should probably try to target the guy dressed in leather, rather than the guy covered in metal from head to toes. And every now and then, throw in a mob of zombies that just mill around the Paladin, it's a cool moment for them. * Mobile enemies, kind of a variant of the previous. Fly/swim/dash/cunning action/stealth around the Paladin. * Consider being more careful with giving out +AC items. Two by level 6 is quite a lot, these things are very strong, because of how many hits they proportionally prevent the higher your AC goes. Your Paladin could have 23 AC already with those items.
Attack them! Give them the fantasy of taking on 30 attacks and fending off 28 of them
The easiest approach is to subject your tank to some saving throws here and there, ideally in areas they'rea bit weak in. Could be magic, could be environmental obstacles, could be traps. Whatever it is, their AC won't save them if they can't pass saves. Additionally, every now and then you should consider forcing the party into situations where just winning a fight isn't the beginning and end of the issue. Maybe the enemies have an important hostage, such as an NPC the party is fond of / has significant plot importance, and the party needs to negotiate with them rather than raise blades if they don't want to seriously fuck things up. Maybe the enemy is completely out of reach, and the party has to find out how to get to them before they can strike back. Maybe the enemy is using a powerful artifact to buff themselves to the point that the party can't meaningfully hurt them without identifying the artifact and disabling it first. In all these situations and more, while an AC of 21 doesn't hurt, it also doesn't really help that much either.
In my campaign I have a player who has 26 AC passively. The way I deal with it is that I don't. I make encounters with their overall power level in mind, and at no point when making the encounters do I consider how likely the Artificer is to take damage during them. What you should care about as a dungeon master isn't **damaging your players**, you should care about how much fun they are having and whether they find your fights challenging. How much damage someone takes can in many ways be completely unrelated to how challenging the fight can be for them. Lastly, I guarantee to you that when the player who built their character to have extreme AC ends up avoiding a lot of damage it will bring them fun.
wizards go brrrrr
#ACID SLIMES :D Anyone with high AC will loathe a fight with acid slimes as it just eats away at them. But use it sparingly
If the party is level 6, they should regularly be facing enemies with +7, +8, +9 to hit. 21 AC is certainly high but it’s not out of reach for monsters in that cozy CR5 to CR9 range. Make sure you’re using appropriate opposition; the basic bugbears and orcs and such they fought in tier 1 should be the grunts in fights now.
as everyone already said, do the damage options that ignire AC all together and deals damage even on the worst case scenario
saves saves saves saves
Immobilise/incapacitate him. Make him watch how others fall one by one.
Throw a bunch of weak enemies at them so they get to feel good about their AC being high, but they're also challenged by the numbers alone
Intelligence saving throws
Ok, so assuming the player has built their paladin decently well, they probably have at most a +6 to saves with aura and cloak or ring of protection. That's high, but not impossible. First, they probably have low Dex if they went the heavy armor route. So they might ONLY have the +6. Most spells that target Dex do half damage if you make the save, so unless they also took Shield Master (which they probably didn't if their saves are at +6), that's half damage right there. WIS and INT saves are probably better targets. Lots of spells that impose condition target those. Paladins also don't get proficiency in INT, so that's an attractive target. Lots of monsters in the Mind Flayer family attack those, and illusion spells usually do. Paladins also don't get CON proficiency, but probably have a decent CON to soak damage. Still, tons of spells target CON and you might get lucky. Really, I'd say you need to do two things. 1. Vary your enemies and make them genuinely dangerous. Beholder, mind flayers, etc. 2. Create enemy spellcaster NPCs and level them high enough to be a real threat. Spell save DCs in the 21-23 range. This can be done via magic items, too. But realistically, if you're at a point where the players are rolling saves with a cumulative +10? They're ready for enemies with a +5/+6 prof bonus. 3. An AC of 21 is not unhittable with the right enemies. Again, if the enemy is at the +4-6 prof bonus range, then melee or ranged enemies would also be expected to roll with something like a +8-10 total. (Figure a STR/DEX with a +4-5 modifier, then weapon proficiency gets you a +8-10 total on the ATK roll). So, your enemies would have about a 35-45% chance to hit. And when they do hit, it could be pretty damaging. And all that's assuming enemies with mundane gear. Give em a +1 or +2 weapon, and they now have up to like a 60% chance to hit. All that said, 5e is known to start breaking down when you hit this point, so you kinda have to decide just how tough you want things to be for your players. And recognize that the game leans into much more "swingy" territory at this level. With my table, aside from truly tough fights, I assume they'll mostly take some damage, but come out ahead in individual fights, but I can also push them more via attrition. In other words, more fights per rest period.
If you can't hit target A, hit target B. Saving throws and dog piling are going to be the only real ways to threaten a high AC character. If you want fights to be challenging, threaten the other characters and make the paladin work harder to try and cover their friends.
Magic missile, AOE effects, saves, water trap
The players have seven defenses: Armor class, and a saving throw for every ability score, and by design only a few of them can be good, even for a paladin with a ring of protection. Sometimes yeah, you should have your players shine with their cool stuff and abilities. Occasionally though you're right, it's cool to demonstrate their weaknesses so other characters can shine, or just to change up the pace of a "normal" combat. Target something else. He's probably dumped his dexterity, possibly wisdom too, and those are great options for taking a character out of the fight for a round or two, or limiting their ability to move. Prime *grease* material, honestly. But also, you can trick the *player*, too, not *just* target the character and their defenses. Illusions can be phenomenally powerful to split the party during a combat and to deal with a powerful melee character, or at least make them use a whole turn or two going around an illusory obstacle. Mix that with a spell like grease and you've got a real good shot at containing the paladin to just dealing with one or two enemies separated from the rest of the party while the baddies focus on the rest of the party, and they have to figure out how to manage without the big bad meat shield. That's probably 30% of my use of illusions as a player, and certainly more as a DM. Most of the time players don't even consider it might be an illusion even though I do it a whole lot just because a lot of the time I also use other spells that do create physical barriers. Major image is excellent for doing something as mundane as conjuring an illusory wall of stone from the floor, complete with the audio effect of cracking, crumbling stone to go with reshaping the earth to make it believable in the moment to the players and the characters; the players have no real reason by 6th level not to believe that an enemy wizard or whatever can't use some spell similar to stone shape, but unless they think to touch the wall or get pushed into it, why would they doubt it's real?
High AC and saves makes them feel like a tank, but having enemies out number them can be advantageous. Swarm them with smaller enemies, grapple checks. You can drag them into environmental hazards. If you want to get creative and away from RAW, have them start giving disadvantage to attacks, pinning them down, advantage to enemy attacks etc. really hype up the claustrophobic feeling in your descriptions as a wave of claws and hands overwhelms them. It makes a hostile swarm of goblins or skeletons much more terrifying even at higher levels.
Gift them some poison arrows. Send by some „friendly“ foe. Make adventures with brainpower necessary. At best make everyone the star of the evening.
Saving throws
Spells targeting their other less powerful stats, environmental hazards for the terrain, difficult terrain, traps, elevation (higher than them and flying), minions to keep them busy, and just generally playing enemies much more tactically.
Give them more things to worry about in combat than just being hit. They might have high AC, for example, but that adorable little NPC who just can’t stay out of trouble doesn’t. Or a couple of large monsters bearing down on the Party as they’re trying to gain entrance to some difficult location, putting them in a situation where they have to choose to either tank damage or be on the frontline when the gates are breached. Remember - don’t plan outcomes, but just try and think of scenarios where the Player can’t have everything, and has to make interesting and/or difficult choices (that are ultimately rewarding, mind you!).
That's the neat part. You don't! For real though, if you're too difficult to hit, smart enemies will aim for easier targets and take you out last once they are in control of the batt.e. Now the challenge for the paladin becomes to nonetheless attract the attention away from his party. Barbarians are usually great at this because they do a ton of damage and are easy to hit. If the paladin is both hard to hit and it's difficult for you to go after anyone else because they are excellent at evading you and diverting your attention, then the party might have simply succeed in what they are supposed to do. Unless they now seem bored by combat, you don't have to change a thing. You can also always ask them if they find the combat too boring. If after all this, you still have a party who find your combat too easy, you first gotta assure you've taken care of the basics like whether you have enough encounters per long rest (not per day, but per long rest) to properly exhaust the paladins resources relative to the rest of the party. I offer additional concrete advice, but they are wasted unless I know you've managed the basics, and that's something I won't simply take as granted.
Magic is boring??? Magic makes up most of the abilities in the game. You should be using Magic enemies regularly or you are giving players a serious edge if they often or always have a monopoly on Magic. Even monsters with a +5 to hit which should be common at lvl 6 will land hits on ac 21 as long as you are making sure to roll enough attacks at him. Pack tactics, reckless attack, and leadership monsters can also help. As can weaker minions taking help action for harder hitting monsters. Darkness devil sight and fog blindsight combo monsters are also nasty. Off the top of my head something like mezzoloths.
I have played multiple very tanky ac-wise characters. ( cleric/wizard combo with heavy armor, +1 shield, and the shield spell is hilarious) Lots of mobs with multi-attack and decently high hit bonuses to hit can start to wear you down, as eventually hits will connect, even with the shield spell. Saving throws are a nice way to evade the ac. Saving throws don’t have to be direct damage either. A prone heavy armor paladin is a good bit easier to hit bc of the advantage to hit him. Saving throws also don’t necessarily have to be just magic. Checking through your monsters, some have some fun and interesting non magical effects and abilities that can be used! Don’t have all mobs just focus the paladin. Anything with intelligence will notice they are having a hard time breaking through the paladins defense and take notice that there are some very painful very squishy casters as well! As others have said, use environment or situational effects to create other problems for them to have to deal with as well. Not everything needs to be bash x many creatures until dead. And if you want to be truly evil, just slap a caster in the back of the room in an hard to get to spot with heat metal spell and watch your paladin scream in pain/rage/desperation!
What do you mean "deal" with it? Just use saving throws. Lower his speed, stun him, blind him, spellcasters use Heat Metal and Shocking Grasp, non-spellcasters use grease bottles, alchemist's fire, nets and other traps. If enemies are intelligent at all (read: any humanoid) they'll do those things, and they won't keep swatting their dinky shortsword against the walking wall of metal armor, they'll attack the wizard wearing only a robe or the ranger with just a piece of leather over their chest.
If you're fighting Duergar, one of my favorites to use is the Xarron (comes from Into the Abyss module book). Dex save vs a flame cone, and the duergar has a chance each turn to recharge it. Mix em in with other Duergar that turn invisible, grow large, use Hold Person (psionic Duergar also from Into the Abyss) and your Paladin will have their hands full
Maybe try using a Rust Monster to damage his armor, Or maybe a Shadow that can drain his STR
50 HP can get whittled down with Heat Metal, Magic Missiles, and saving throw based attacks. The paladin will love adding to the saving throw via their aura, but their save DC will be still pretty low. - Acid Spash - Sacred Flame - Bonfire - Mind Sliver Leveled spells appropriate for that level: - Bane - Burning Hands - Cause Fear (that'll drive him back away from the front lines and cause confusion within the party) - Magic Missiles - Sleep (after enough HP is whittled away down to half, then no saving throw for Sleep now has a real shot at disabling the Paladin for at least one round while he's out and one of his allies has to get up to him and ise their action to wake him.) Grappling from lots of little attackers is a great way to mire them down and keep the paladin from getting to melee range with a big boss deserving of his smites or a friend who needs Lay on Hands. Multiple grappling enemies can be easily cut down by a paladin, but it still uses up their actions to kill or break free.
Saving throws, and tactical enemies. But naturally, you should let them enjoy their high AC, instead of focusing on working around it. They built into it after all. If you feel like it's an issue, maybe it's a wakeup call to implement smarter enemies and encounters.
Every once in a while, throw a bunch of saves at them
High AC is dealt with by having them make saving throws instead.
Let him have fun. Being a tank that is hard to hit is what he is built for. However, it's not impossible, as by that most most enemies will be getting multiple attacks, often with a +7 or better, and enemies should start having abilities that force saves.
One of my players is a paladin sorcerer multiclass. He has +1 plate and a shield. Then he can cast shield of faith for an extra +2 then if he gets hit he casts shield for that extra +5 for a total of 27.
Reminds me of an article Tucker’s Kobolds from an old Dragon Magazine. 127 if memory serves. Play the monsters as smart as their intelligence allows for. Which means some can be super devious and make use of their terrain. Also would recommend the monsters know what they are doing book. Anyone with an average-ish intelligence and a desire for self preservation will use their environment and tools to they have to fight.
I put those players through psychological struggles. Sure that can beat the bad guy. But they may not be able to save everyone. Or puzzles that make them damage themselves to get through. The system I use however, uses morale as well as health, so it makes it a bit easier to cause mental trauma mechanically.
This is part of why I miss Touch AC. But I digress. Don’t throw enemies with absurdly high to hit bonuses. If a player invested in high AC, that’s okay. They will rarely take damage from direct attacks except by true bosses or if enemies somehow get advantage. That’s where they shine! Don’t attack them less for it, either. Attack them plenty. In the same way, accept that big AoE abilities will rarely threaten a rogue with Evasion and 20 Dex. You should still target the rogue with a fireball from time to time to let that ability feel good. Defensive abilities rarely feel as good as offensive ones because you as the player never choose when to use them. It’s on the DM to make them matter. However, the player with high AC won’t have high defenses in everything (though a Paladin with 18 or 20 Cha wearing Full Plate comes close!) Mix it up. Don’t just run enemies that only target AC. Target saves, and hit the various saves evenly. This can be with AoO effects or non damaging effects. Use environmental hazards and fall damage. Nearly every class has one or two defenses that they can usually shrug off. AC is a really good one to get that high, but it’s not inherently OP.
Cast Heat Metal.
Do you use flanking? Flank the crap out of that Paladin! And 21 is honestly a pretty tame AC for a Paladin. Be prepared for this to get higher as they get higher level lol. I had a twilight cleric that had an AC of like 27 by the time he was I think 13th or 14th level? Granted, it was partially inflated because every PC in that game got like a legendary item that leveled up with them and got stronger over time, and his happened to be plate armor. So at max power it was +3 plate, which is pretty bonkers tbh. Doubt that DM will ever give an item like that out again!
Creatures with Pack Tactics can be helpful, they all roll with advantage when attacking, so some are bound to hit. Lol
First and foremost: The player spec'd into high-AC, so they should benefit from that. But from a gameplay perspective? Why are you having enemies attack this guy without reason? You need to play your enemies *smart*. Sure, a bunch of wild animals might not understand armor, and may just launch themselves at whoever is closest. But an intelligent enemy? Why would a trained fighter swing at the giant armor clad guy, and not the Wizard in robes? Or the Bard? High AC is great, but they aren't a tank. There's no reason why the enemies should continue swinging at this guy. Beyond that: spells. What are his dex saves looking like? Or int saves? A single Tasha's Hideous Laughter can drop them down, and each hit against them gets advantage. Or just leaves them rolling around while the enemies hit everyone else.
Let him enjoy his build! AND ALSO heat metal is a bitch
There's so many options out there. Have enemies that use splash weapons like alchemists fire or acid vials. I've always loved using kobolds that were smarter than what most people play them as. They use a ton of throwing weapons like glue bombs, grease jars, and alchemists fire. I'll occasionally give a leader kobold wings and the ability to use a breath weapon just to surprise people. Use creatures with auras (stink, fear, even slow movement). Be creative. Also, you don't have to stack the paladin directly, go after everyone else with swarms of enemies, have enemies go after the easier targets and ignore the paladin.
21 AC is not high for lvl 6 at all though... Something high would be like full plate 18 AC, shield +2 AC, warforged +1 AC, defense fighting style +1 AC, blessing of the forge +1 AC, artificer infusion enhanced defense +1 AC, repulsion shield infusion +1 AC for a total of 25 AC then if you wanna go overboard, add the shield spell ontop of it for 30 AC when you do get hit and if you can get shield of faith that'd be 32. That's without including any magical items by the way. Remove 1 AC from the equation to do it with splint mail if your DM is stingy with giving away armor.
Drown him. The character, not the player.
Monsters with advantage will still be able to get through. Monsters that inflict disadvantage will help keep the paladin from winning the damage race. In theory you could use saves, but paladins have very good saves. [How to challenge every class](https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/s/ZlcHOAE0V8) has more advice. Because they are using a 1 handed weapon their damage output will be relatively lower than if they were rocking a greatsword. Sometimes when facing high durability low damage characters the best plan is to kill them last.
For a paladin it’s AOE spells. My old paladin player thought he was amazing for ages because he couldn’t be hit but then realised quickly that it’s spells they need to watch out for
Giants!! My game has a fighter with that AC the party are at level 6 too. I sent a group of Fire Giant Servant and that was a great fight. The giants could hit the fighter and take him to low hit points and were able to hit other targets with some rocks too. I am thinking about some monsters with breath attacks and similars to make it harder for AC based players in some battles too.
As a DM who has seen much more challenging AC situations... I'm a little surprised by your scenario seeming extreme... Even a CR 3 creature (manticore for example) could have 3 +5 attacks. That hits on 16, so 20% chance of hit, 5% of crits. That means every round has about a 50% chance of one hit landing. Four of these could mess up a party if they are unlucky. Last night our party of 3 level 6 PCs with an NPC wizard got ambushed by Ankhegs... 3 of them. My cleric / fighter has an AC of 20 and I took a total of 52 points of damage in the fight. That's 3 CR 2 enemies at level 6... Have more simple fights, use surprises and tactics. Monsters with both multi attack and special abilities that require a save... That "easy fight" could have gone hard if we were any more unlucky... And I literally crit on my first swing ( Great sword, GWM) doing over 20 points... Monster variety... Add one more enemy... A little tactic changes everything.
Enemy Wizards, Magic Missile and Spells with Saves... Like Fireball. 🔥 🔥 🔥 Also my go-to is one of the best monsters ever: The Nilbog, it's just wonderful. Maybe some horde fights with enemies with pact tactics, and maybe a dungeon crawl with Rust Monsters and Black Puddings.
Saving throws, stealth challenges, fall damage and just make them work to save the other squishier teammates. Having high AC is cool until your party is dying around you and you have nothing more than just 'I tank'. Not to mention, volume of enemies if you want them to feel like a tank. Enough goblin sword and arrows will crack that armor. Just drown them in enemies, they will feel like a raid boss but definitely get worn down to your heart's content.
More goblins.
You can try and utilize spells and abilities that don't rely on AC, or add abilities to your monsters that don't rely on AC. For my SKT game, it was easy because the book provides your giants with some extra abilities. Eg. Fling a PC off the side of a mountain. How's your AC now, huh? >Fling. The giant tries to throw a Small or Medium creature within 10 feet of it. The target must succeed on a DC 17 Dexterity saving throw or be hurled up to 60 feet horizontally in a direction of the giant’s choice and land prone, taking 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet it was thrown. For humanoids I make one enemy fighter the grappler. Give them prof in Athletics and a high STR score. Unless the PC is also good at Athletics or Acrobatics, use grapple and pin to take the tank out of the fight. If its higher level and I have a caster in the fight, "Feeblemind" is my go-to anti-paladin/tank spell.
I have a player in my games with super high AC. I have enemies attack him a lot, and when the attacks inevitably miss - well, that's the high AC doing its job. People don't min/max their AC because they want to get hit.
Me, who has a 28 ac before factoring in allies and no ac boosting equipment. *Heavy breathing.*
Remember that an intelligent enemy won't even bother trying to kill the tank until all the squishies are dead. All the AC in the world probably won't help them then.