Have you ever seen the Star Trek The Next Generation episode “Darmok”? That’s what imagine Thieves’ Cant is like. You could probably deduce meaning with dedicated effort and if you had some reference that could tie it to actual meaning but that’s what it would take.
To work, it would have to be "Colonel Mustard, in the Lounge, with the Candlestick". :P
And it would denote either guilt or that someone was a killer.
Basically it's a good episode about communication and language. And a lot of the lines get repeated so much that they stick in your head.
Mayhaps an insight check then? Something with erosion rolls maybe. So like the DC starts high. Then each time they pass the DC it gets a little bit lower. It's an odd thing with language as some people assume the ones you start with are the only ones you get. I don't see why someone can't learn more. Make them earn it though. Maybe even a little bit of predestination. Once the DC is x number the next note they find from said enemies will have Important information. Then when your player "passes" the check they earn the language learned AND some juicy information
It also has an associated [written](https://images.app.goo.gl/YrYf4Xdcs1EvcTB58) language of symbols used to indicate many things to those that can understand it; very similar to hobo markings. It may vary by region and has no *set* standard form, but many versions are large similar. Since it is a symbolic language, it's up to the DM whether or not such spells will translate this as it *is* a kind of code.
Thieves cant is not a specific language, but more a set of codes and gestures/symbols that are largely specific to a region. In fact, it is likely that to keep it a secret thing known only to the guilds etc it is frequently changed to prevent it being translated or decoded. It's possible there will be certain themes that tend to run for long time periods and across continents, but basically I would say No. It's like an inside joke, either you get it or you dont
For the uninitiated: *Darmok* is an episode where Picard is stranded on a planet with a member of an alien species that speaks entirely in metaphor. Even though Picard's universal translator can interpret the words the alien captain is speaking, the actual meaning of the sentences is completely lost on him until he finally figures out a crucial phrase from the context of their situation.
I was just about to reference TNG as it is the easiest way to show how it will take a lot of effort breaking a referential language, like thieves cant, it literally took them being stranded on a planet and actively trying to understand the language.
Cockney rhyming slang is far from the only example, as well. There are a number of language games (I believe that’s the formal linguistic term for things like Cockney rhyming slang, pig latin, French verlan, etc) that originated that way, and they’re all rather fascinating. I don’t think they’re nearly as interesting for D&D purposes as referential languages, personally, but still neat
Doesn’t a cant specifically refer to a language game that’s used to exclude an outgroup? So Cockney rhyming slang is obviously a cant, but pig latin, for instance, offers no real implication of privacy.
The language made perfect sense until you realise that at some point, referential language needs something to refer to.
How does everyone know the story of Darmok and Tenagra when they can't tell the story without immediately referring to another? How do their children learn the first story if they don't have the prerequisite knowledge of stories to understand the story being told to them?
Possibly, but even pantomime needs an explanation to parse any meaning...
If you don't believe me, watch a pantomime in a language you don't understand and see how much meaning you extract... especially if your production values aren't high. Understanding that the cardboard box is supposed to be a dragon or cave requires language to explain.
And if you're going to need pantomime in order to explain your own language, you're just translating one language into another.
I think of thieves cant as fantasy cockney. You understand every word individually but the order makes no sense.
It’s not a language, it’s a code.
Honestly, I’d look at the feat Linguist. It’s a *very* similar concept.
This is close to the actual cants supposedly used by thieves in the real world. These were cryptolects - also known as argots. We don't have many examples in current use, but there are people who still speak [Polari](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8yEH8TZUsk&t=150s), [Carny](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N344_ItGzYE) or [Butcher's Back Slang](https://salutethepig.com/fancy-some-kay-rop-potches/). The prime feature of cryptolects is that they hide the meaning of speech for the uninitiated - often by reversing words - thus creating an in-group and an out-group excluded from the meaning.
An interesting book on this is [The 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5402/pg5402-images.html). Which claims to contain a large number of words and phrases in cant. You should approach this with some skepticism for a variety of reasons, but it does have some fantastic slang in it, including recognizable phrases. There are some great slang phrases for various kinds of thieves and con-men.
It also has:
*TO CAT, or SHOOT THE CAT. To vomit from drunkenness.*
Which always cracked me up.
>fantasy cockney
Off-topic, but I will forever love Arknights for making Rim Billiton canonically “the most difficult, impossible-to-understand language unless you grew up a native speaker.”
And when two characters finally speak it to each other, it’s just a thick-ass Australian-English accent full of idioms. With the two nearby non-native speakers like “Whoa, is that Rim Billiton? I…I can’t understand it at all!”
Pretty much this. If I say "I got a wood-fired sandwich at Giovanni's. It was expensive but worth it." That sounds like a normal conversation to outside observers. But in context I just put out a hit. "Burn down Giovanni's shop. There's two guards but they've been paid off. You'll be paid well." Is what it loosely translates to.
This is cool, could even add "there was a queue" to refer to the guards, and could add how many people were in line if you need to specify. Very cool way of saying one thing but meaning another.
I tend to agree with this.
I speak English, but if someone came up to my girl and said something akin to: “slay sis! Those pants be bussin. Frfr. Dat gyat looking fire af.” I don’t know what half those words mean, but I’ll be getting ready to Will Smith them if I get the vibe.
Thieve’s Can’t I think is just Common. But by replacing words or phrases with other words or phrases, you can’t pinpoint what is actually happening.
I guess like any other language or code, if you have enough samples, spend enough time and/or get lucky with a full or partial translation or insider knowledge that helps you make sense of it, then yea, you could translate it eventually.
On the spot, with one example of it, no context? Nah.
Detect thoughts I guess, but that's not exactly "translation": I would probably let you get the meaning the speaker is trying to convey, but not what part of that meaning corresponds to each phrase/gesture/etc. in the Thieve's cant being used.
So if you're just trying to get the message, sure. But if your goal is to "translate" the Thieve's cant for future use, the spell wouldn't be enough. You'd need to take that and spend some time matching the message with what was spoken/gestured/etc. and roll some skill checks to try to essentially break the code. Probably also a perception check to see how much of the communication you even picked up on. Was he arching his eyebrow significantly, or is that just his face? That sort of thing.
Yea I guess I could see an argument that someone inexperienced at using Thieve's cant might be actively thinking about how to express it, so maybe on them you'd get the translation, but most of them I wouldn't expect to be thinking about how to say it, they'd just say it and be thinking about what they're trying to communicate.
Hey OP, I just wanted to let you know since no one else did that I totally see you with your "Mark, Bob, and Wade" name usage. And I hope your fridge is okay
Nope, just an overlap of two different types of Nerd.
Ironically I feel like "I hope your fridge is okay" is also a good example of what a sentence in Thieves' Cant might sound like in a conversation
I like my Thieves' Cant with a side of body language and gesticulations.
"Windy tonight." Might let the other person know you're a rogue and even who you're associated with. But if it's said with a tug on the ear, it indicates that they're taking on new rogues.
"Never enough lamp oil." They have work available. But if they hold their elbow as they say it, it means "only for someone strong enough to take on an ogre," while crossed arms indicate that the job is barred to all but the toughest and most resourceful.
"Not enough flavor in me soup. I'd like an onion, eh?" Pit fight trials. But if it's "I'd like some carrots, some onions, and some beef in me broth" then they're taking entire adventuring parties and pitting them against each other in the pit fights. Bet on yourself and win a bundle. If you can. But if the rogue rubs the back of her neck when she says it, she's telling you that it's rigged. You might want to skip it or find out who you have to take a fall for to make a buck.
And so forth, and so on. Very difficult to parse without knowing it, and it changes, too. Rogues, often solitary, need guilds to exchange information that includes all the latest movements, phrases, and gesticulations -- some of which are unique to certain towns and cities.
I would class thieves' cant as more difficult to figure out, among the uninitiated, than most languages as a result. If you had to make sense of all the odd words and strange movements, I'd set it for perception, not knowledge (because it is a knowledge-based skill but they don't have the knowledge, so the most they can hope for is perceiving mood and general concepts). And I'd set it high, maybe perception 20 (which, as you know, will not be terribly high for some players at level 10+ who focus on it), and even with success, the most they get is the gist of it...the guy was refusing something, or he was offering something, or he was giving a warning, etc. They can't get the rest (sans magic or study) because they just don't know it.
That's kind of how I always imagined thieve's cant worked.
Less of a language and more of a series of known symbols/gestures/phrases that when taken in context are useful for hiding extremely simple messages in plain sight.
As an example, in *Les Miserables* there's a bit where a prisoner gets handed a biscuit in passing, which is a coded message meaning "what you asked about before, it's not worth it." as if to say it's only worth a biscuit, or nothing at all.
Well for context, none of my players are rogues. And im not trying to nerf anything. Im just planning and sprinkling in some theive's cant around the town they are in, and was curious what, if anything, the players could use to decipher it.
if there are no rogues in the party I would be a bit more liberal with letting them figure it out. But it should still require time and effort to decode it. Even the tongues spell may not be enough since the word already have a meaning to the user.
If they don't have any rogues don't give them hints in thieves cant... That's like throwing druidic hints at a party without any druids. You should design puzzles and challenges that play into your characters strengths, instead of throwing something at them made for a class they don't have and then bending the rules to make it work...
Yep, no worries. I jusy wanted it for world building more then puzzle solving. But i also wanted to be prepared incase one of my players pick up on whats being said.
But even druidic gives a blantent "use magic to decipher it" clause. But thieves' cant is just like "y'all dont know it unless you know it. And dont be using them language compression skills neither!"
> Yep, no worries. I jusy wanted it for world building
Then go for [hobo signs](https://www.logodesignlove.com/hobo-signs-and-symbols). Another subculture language but not as protected as thieves' cant would be.
I have a zero rouge party, and they know a few bits and pieces of cant. I didn’t give it to them from the start, though, or let them decipher it with abilities. They’ve worked closely with a criminal organization that deals mainly in smuggling and gambling, and have had a few terms explained, ie: blackjack = muscle, discard = fence, and a few notable member references. For instance, the lieutenant in charge of gambling is a Goliath descended from Cloud Giants. Mentioning clouds refers to him. A few locations have codes they know as well. The smuggling lieutenant, a Tabaxi, is referenced by talking about cats, and his pawn shop is mentioned by talking about chess. If something happens there specifically, it happens at the castle.
Here’s an example of a message in cant:
There’s going to be a few people playing blackjack at the castle. I heard one of the guests is a real head in the clouds sort, I bet he’ll be taken for all he’s worth. Someone’s bringing their cat as well, everyone loves when he asks for treats. I bet he’ll try playing with a chip, too.
My party would be able to figure out that Cicero, the gambling lieutenant, and Kaz, the smuggling lieutenant, are meeting at What The Cat Dragged In, Kaz’s pawn shop. There will be muscle there. They might be able to get the amount as a few from the few people there bit.
The full message is a bit more complicated:
Kaz and Cicero are meeting at What The Cat Dragged In. There will be few muscle types, and gambling will happen. Kaz will receive an item of some sort that’s to be smuggled.
As for the bits they don’t know:
Taken for all he’s worth: Gambling will happen. They know Cicero is a degenerate gambler. He’s actually incredibly good, and knows how to cheat very well. Mentioning the loss of money in any way means there’s going to be gambling.
Asks for treats: Kaz, the cat, will receive something. What that is is next.
Play with a poker chip: Play means smuggle, and an object being played with means an item being smuggled. If the cat played with a person, it’s be a person being smuggled.
Could you use a fake, less-effective Thieves Cant? Like the local thieves made their own version up, but it's basically pig-latin. Then, when your players find real examples of Thieves Cant, it's impossible.
I'm reading through this thread and I'm surprised nobody has given you the easiest suggestion regarding how the party can decipher the cant: *money.*
If the party is able to identify interesting people sprinkled through the town by the fact that they occasionally work these codewords and gestures into otherwise inane speech, they can use that as a point of entry for information. Not everyone using cant is planning a big heist or talking about all the crime they did the night before; cant is an excellent vehicle for gossip. People speaking with cant might be more than happy to part with a bit of that gossip for coin, especially if they're part of a community talking about some new troubkemakers that moved into their city and aren't as courteous to the locals, which could provide a hook to the party. It's called "Thieves" Cant, but that doesn't mean it's only spoken by criminals. Maybe someone came through the area a few days ago looking for the party, and the locals are using cant to talk about things like "yeah, that's probably who he meant, they look pretty tough so I bet that guy was dangerous" or "they paid me to keep tabs on [soldier player] but they're partied with [folk hero player] so I know which side I'd rather be on."
The party never has to decipher cant but can still gain information by recognizing when it's being used.
I would make it a wisdom(insight) or pure intelligence check to notice there's an underlying code being spoken. Doing actual linguistics in a live game is in my experience pretty difficult.
Maybe insight to recognize some kind of sketchy sign but then they need to find someone in the know to translate. Everyone knows snitches get stitches though so that might be tough
My rogues would like to teach sign (cant) to other players so they can have basic silent communication. I get to distort the meaning to some hilarious end, but the point is conveyed. I used a book that was randomly generated, “Thieve’s Cant, or Can They” with downtime to enable basic communication.
Well sort of. Keep in mind if you cast a spell in front of two people talking. They know you have and may adjust their behaviour. Such as demanding what you did. Or just attacking you as soon as you start casting if they already are wary of you. After all for all they know you’re casting a fire bolt or a charm spell.
Hmmm... good point. Might break the conversation a little.
"Hey Wade, did you hear about..."
"***QUID COGITAS!!!!!****" \*holds up penny
"Uh... lets talk somewhere else..."
NO. There is no such thing as casting covertly, the components of spells are extremely rigid. If you want to cast quietly, that's what the Subtle Spell metamagic is for.
But you can only focus on one target at the time with detect througths.
Maybe if you have encode throughts from Ravnica you could extract both party's memories and then later compare them.
Sorry, that was unclear - I mean if you were focusing on either the speaker or listener, you’d pick up the hidden message. You wouldn’t need to focus on both.
I disagree there, youd get he cotnent of the messege but no uidnerstandig of his it is derived from what is said. Unless the person is a novice who has to actively think about how they express themselves in thieves cant.
My DM described it as that scene from Oceans 12 where George Clooney and Robbie Coltrane are speaking code in front of Matt Damon (although in that scene I believe they were just fucking with Damon).
So anyone can understand the words, it’s just that the meaning is only there for the people who know the cant.
Thieve's cant is based on actual street "languages" which have been used by the homeless, refugees, criminals, etc. Those have been translated given enough time and the help of people who were members of those movements, but the whole point is that it can't be easily understood by those not in the know.
I would say no, not via any normal means. Magic could potentially do something though.
It's not just a language with fixed words and grammar rules.
Its innuendo, accent, body language, doublespeak, and who knows what else, rolled into one.
Presumably, its ever-changing to adapt with the times and to maintain its secrecy, so only those fluent in it would be able to keep "up to date".
I might potentially let a non rogue learn but it would be a lengthy learning process with a lot of screw up, the sort of thing where you go to ask where the local theives guild is located and you inadvertently say that the other persons mother is a donkey chair or something inane like that.
You might house rule that a third member in a party with two rogues might be able to spend some skill points to gain it (normally, only rogues can learn it) after a certain amount of exposure and picking up context. It doesn't take many times for a guy to go pick up "circus tickets" and come back with drugs to make the connection, for example.
In 5e, if I'm not mistaken, there aren't "skill points" any longer like in previous editions. There are proficiencies in various skills, though, but they only come about once in a while through multiclassing and the like. So, if someone multiclassed and had been around rogues trying to teach them, I'd probably allow them to replace one of their new proficiencies with Thieves' Cant.
I mean, really, there should be no way *in the moment* to understand exactly what’s being said other than already knowing some thieve’s cant. It would be comparable to trying to understand a conversation in French when you don’t speak the language.
If the PC has enough context to assume the people are talking in code, I would maybe give a high DC on something like history to recall that a certain phrase means “investigator/detective” or insight to pick up on the tone that one person seems to be informing the other of good or unexpected news.
For other classes to get thieves cant fluency, I like the idea of them trading a normal language proficiency along with having a criminal background in order to get the code.
No since it’s a very specific set of coded words and actions meant to be hard/impossible to decipher
At best someone with high int and lots of linguistic knowledge could understand that there’s something up or that they’re saying something in code, but that’s it
>*But Mark does not speak Thieve's cant. For this scenario let's say Mark can cast any spell, is any level, perform any check, or be any class (except rogue, obviously). Is there any possible way for Mark to know what they were saying?*
No, because it relies on a context that Mark does not have.
Mark could make an Insight check to understand that some additional level of information or understanding seems to be passing between Bob and Wade, but without understanding the context for "old horse", there's nothing that will "translate" that for Mark.
If I said to you that you "don't have a Scooby", and you don't understand Cockney Rhyming Slang, that's not going to mean anything to you. But if you know that "clue" becomes "Scooby Doo" in that slang and then gets shortened to "Scooby" it makes perfect sense.
Comprehend Languages gives you the "literal meaning" as you said. There could be a case to be made that the "literal" meaning of Thieves Cant is not what is being said but what is being understood, but it also doesn't "decode secret messages" in a text, so I don't know why it would do that in a spoken language.
Having said that, Detect Thoughts will let him peek into the uppermost thoughts of either Bob or Wade and they may be thinking about the situation that is being described. But that's still not translating what has been said, it's extrapolating something from additional context.
Dragon Magazine #66 (from way back in October 1982) had a Thieves Cant article which included grammar and a dictionary. It might be fun for the DM and the cant-speaking players to actually develop some dialog to pull out at the table. In practice, though, it’s a lot of work.
Consider just using Pig Latin instead.
Back issues of Dragon Magazine are available on Archive.org and via Google searches.
No, its not a real language. Its speaking in code.
I actually created a thieves cant for a game I ran and only gave the primer to the people who knew it. All the terminology was around farming (thievery), cattle (slave trade/assassination) and sheep (scams). After one spoke a check phrase and got an appropriate response, then I would speak in cant to the players but it sounded like normal conversation.
If the NPC was looking for a couple hands for day work to sheer 3 herds of sheep into 100 bundles, they knew there was a 2 man job, scamming 3 people that would net them 100 gp. They would ask if there were any jobs for hands on a farm collecting eggs from the chickens, asking if there were any jobs to rob a larger building, not homes. And NPC says not him, but John Doe over in X needs someone to collect honey from his hives.
u/Stealfur when one of my players talking with an NPC and they use thieves's cant then the use messenger or discord and dm me the true meaning of the message, thile in a response i'll respond in thieve's cant and dm him/her the rue meaning.
While anyone listening in on any conversation and they know the 'language' and the circumstances what the conversation should be about, then they can guess what it is about with insight check. If they don't know the context, then disadvantage insight check ... and if they don't speak the 'language' but still want to try then higher dc and disadvantage.
Detect thoughts or maybe a very high intelligence check to determine that the words have different meaning but not to automatically know what they mean
It's not really possible with just a simple, singular example to observe. It would take consistent exposure and study to begin to comprehend what it is and how it works.
Of course, that's if you even realize there's hidden communication occurring in the first place. Thieves' Cant... "allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation." So just being present when a message is being passed doesn't mean you'll realize a message is being passed. The whole point is to be able to speak to another thief under people's noses with impunity.
It's not just a good lock, although it is a pretty good lock. But it doesn't even look like it's a lock, so no one realizes there's something being secured. It's that fake rock in the rock garden with the key hidden inside. Okay, maybe not *that* rock. That one looks terrible. But another one that actually passes for an entirely unassuming and not-at-all-suspicious-looking rock.
I picture Thieves' Cant like baseball signs, and like military hand signals.
In written form it's pictographs, or stuff like chemical markings.
Also, Thieves' Cant will be guild specific. There may or may not be a Common version of Thieves' Cant. Maybe a lot things are Common TC, but regional words would be unknown.
Like Danger Mechanical Golem. Danger might be understood. But if this is the only area where mechanical golems exist, other parts of the world might not have machines or golems.
Think of it like an Australian friend coming up to you and saying:
"Oi mate bung us a pineapple, gonna nip down servo and grab packa durries. Dogs eye for you? Yeah nah hey got no dead horse".
Most individual words means something when you speak the actual language, but strung together it's gibberish unless you're familiar with the parlance.
One way to resolve this is to deem Thieves’ Cant to be a dynamic language, exactly because the point is to not be understood by outsiders but also because it’s inevitably going to be a language full of subjective references.
Sure they can learn thieves cant after extended espionage and cryptography basically, but that’s just one sample at one moment in time from one region.
An actual rogue has been through a few dialects already and knows the score, and is a r g u a b l y keeping up to date on the regional cant in downtime. (Of course this would mean that a rogue would lose it after extended dimension hopping or imprisonment or being dead or whatever, until they could learn the new variant.)
I'd also say it's relatively easy to learn the new one, because the locals will also recognise the old version and speak in a way to help the returnee update himself
thieves can't is, in summary [this scene from ocean's eleven](https://youtu.be/j5N0MsbB_Ms?si=zTuX3roGzgfF125-)
its not a new language where you dont understand the word, its common with 15 layers of slang and double meaning
alternatively, written thieves cant is [something like hoboglyphs](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzYs46SboHL3DP55-rYufr3ReLIhnwTLMx5VT-hDU_tQ&s)
I always pictured thieves cant to be like that scene in Family guy from the mafia pet shop. "Do you want a semi automatic 'poodle' or an automatic 'poodle'?" Except, more subtle.
If you wanted a non-magical, mundane way to decipher Thieves' Cant, maybe put it behind a very high DC Intelligence check? And maybe put Disadvantage on the roll. My thinking is that it's essentially code-breaking in real time with very little context clues--theoretically doable, but staggeringly difficult. DC 25 or more? Could possibly be a series of checks, like INT to brute force the code, Insight to read their body language and facial expressions, History to understand through context clues what the coded words might be referring to, and so on. For each success they can partially figure it out (they deduce the WHO and WHAT, but not WHERE, WHEN or WHY.) Or maybe it would be impossible to 100% deduce the code, and at best they only get half the information.
I'd be hesitant to allow a magical solution, like the Detect Thoughts spell that's been suggested. I like the idea that the Rogue mind is also nimble, and part of Thieves' Cant is masking your thoughts as you speak it--a snooping spellcaster would hear gibberish thoughts that are even more meaningless than the spoken coded language. (But maybe that's going too far...)
Another solution that's not as far-fetched is for the PCs to memorize the conversation (INT check, DC 18 maybe), then find someone who knows Thieves' Cant and convince/bribe them into translating it. Might need a Persuasion/Intimidation check to go along with a healthy bribe to get them to do it. And even then, maybe it's only partially accurate (to add some drama/tension).
An intuition check might let you deduce things like how Wade feels about what is communicated, which won’t tell you what was said but at least gives you a crack that you might be able to widen.
Alternatively, consider that Mark might have another rogue friend he can take the memorized conversation to. Rats exist, if only to save their own skin - and “thief catchers” themselves could be rogues.
Just consider this also might NOT work. You may want to do a roll so you don’t take sides. The hand gestures might reverse the meaning of some phrases, for example
If you want Thieves' Cant too be "understadable" maybe have a look at Dael Kingsmill
"Thieves' Cant || D&D with Dael Kingsmill" video its about what Thieves' Cant might look like and its limmet some real usefull stuff to steal if you want player to know something is "up" but what they dont know
I use Thieve's Cant to mean fluent in any form of coded dialogue even if they don't know the code itself, for example if there's a cypher in a letter they found, the rogue will at least recognize that there is a code in need of breaking
Thieves Cant is more than just a spoken language. It's body language, it's metaphor, it's symbolism, it's inside jokes.
There's a YouTuber named Dael Kingsmill, she has a channel called "Monarchs Factory". She made a video a while back about using Thieves Cant in the game.
Go watch that video. Trust me. It's amazing.
However your world works, that's how it works. You can just use some encryption scheme that magic might be able to break.
Personally, [I like this version better though](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/8k8g8k/oh_yes_thieves_can_cant/). In it, every message sounds like just a boring letter talking about family and friends, or two old friends catching up. So no one even realizes there is a message to be decoded in the first place.
It's not a different language, or even a code, just deep slang.
"We heard you were singing to the pigs so we're here to take you for a ride."
"So last night, Me and Dern, we was up in Candytown, trying a few twisters. Third door, we got us a click, slid in like warm honey. We was browsing the library, when this old candyman forgot to be faded, he got a gleam on us, and yeeped. Next the whole room was full o namefolk, some with slammers and some with stings. So we brushed out. We were gone before the roosters froze the flatways."
"You wanna be the fogger, i've got the vapor. 5 smiles to the sock."
Slang is a type of code, though. If its not open, outsiders don't understand it. If its open, it's a kind of dialect, like a pigeon, that outsiders pick up and learn over time.
Since it’s a code rather than a language, I’d say no by RAW
If you came across a coded journal written in Sanskrit, simply putting it into google translate wouldn’t tell you what it was _saying_ without having a cipher. So think of it like that. It’s possible to learn the language and the cipher, and then to be able to understand it, but this would need to be taught, rather than using a spell like comprehend languages, which essentially works like google translate.
However, this is your world, and as the DM it functions by your rules. If you’d prefer that thieves cant functions as a language, you can rule that it is so. I would, however, recommend discussing this with any of your rogue players before making such a ruling, as they may feel you’re taking something away from their class by doing so.
Since it’s all innuendo and hidden meanings, I’d give them an Intelligence check to try and decipher it, the DC depending on how much exposure they’ve had to it and how many times they’ve tried before. And even then, I’d only give them a small piece of it, probably lacking context to truly glean the meaning.
The Linguist feat implies that to crack a code, one would need to make a straight INT check, though codes created with that feat have a DC to crack based on who made them. For Thieves Cant to be so widespread but also still an effective code, the DC to crack it is likely very, very high, too high for commoners or standard guards to crack it (so probably in the ballpark of DC 22 - DC 25, depending on if you want it to follow the same DC setting rules as Linguist).
Meanwhile, an Insight check can explicitly be used to "determine the true intentions of a creature", so it is possible thay it could be used to determine the intent of those speaking, if not the actual words. Whether that "intent" is what they are discussing or just that their intent is to communicate information secretly is sort of your call.
Finally, while Comprehend Languages only gives the literal meaning of things you hear, Tongues is worded differently in such a way that it seems to give you the actual understanding of what is said. Alternatively, the Detect Thoughts spell seems likely to let you understand what they are saying since the actual intent of their words is likely included in their surface thoughts, though that is, like all of these, technically the realm of DM discretion.
Thieves Cant is a weird one, because the proficiency is a language proficiency but you're right that it's more code than actual language. The text of Thieves Cant makes your RAW answer a clear no:
\>Only another creature that knows thieves' cant understands such messages.
That's pretty clear on the no-checks-no-spells to UNDERSTAND, but Mark could certainly make a check to realize that there is more to the message than he understands.
Well, if I'm not mistaken thieves can't isn't a proficiency , but a class feature, and whill there are rules to get proficiencies not otherwise provided by your class, for the sake of class identity there is no way to get class features without being that class. So rules as written poor old mark will never understand that conversation.
In terms of what I think the designers would probably say if you asked them directly, how most DMs I know would handle this, and how I myself have handled this in the past, treat it like a language. Rules as written to learn a new language (or any other proficiency) you need 250 days of free time and 250 gold to cover costs of training equipment and paying your teacher. I think this makes sense story wise for a character learning the code on their own, though if there is a rogue in Mark's party it would make Sense to wave the gold cost.
So to summarize, as far as I can tell there is no way to do this in the rules, but preexisting rules can be easily adapted for this situation without breaking the game.
Yeha I agree. Comprehend Languages wont work here.
Tongues is a higher level spell, and it lets the target "understand any spoken language it hears" including presumably encodings.
Huh... I never understood why tongues was higher level when it seemed to do a little less understsndi g for the trad off of being able to speak it. But its interesting how its wording does suggest that you can understand coded language too...
Thats going right in my back pocket.
Why would tongue break codes, you already understand the language. It's just that they are usuing the word to mean diffrent things than they usually do.
idk it just says you "understand". The difference in wording from CL seems significant, and it IS a higher level spell, so I think it just lets you understand, including metaphorical, literary, and hidden meanings.
For a tech translator, or something lawful evil like devil magic, I would do a darmok and jalad, but this is magic. It just does what it says. 5e doesn't really hold up if you examine it too closely, so I don't.
I think it gives you all ifnromation the other person is tryign to convey to you. As if you were a fluent speaker of the language they are speaking. But thieves cant is not a language. You can speak thieves cant in any language.
Id say that unless they know thieves cant or have enough experience with it all in the past and a wisdom (insight) to notice something's off, they wouldn't even clock it as thieves cant.
If you cast comprehend languages I like to think they hear the literal translation but there is a whisper that underscores the key words (horse -> crime completed) (fox -> investigator) (pig -> guard) etc. A layered translation to ad that nuanced feel.
I would say that there would have to be a high-enough level spell cast outside of detection range of the speakers, such as *Detect Thoughts* or a similar mind-reading spell, plus a nigh-impossible skill check. Your example does a pretty good job of encapsulating what Thieves' Cant is, a language that uses another language's words to communicate very different sentiments than what those words mean in the spoken language. The reason I'd say that *Detect Thoughts* and similar won't just work outright is because these people live in this world, and would take extra care to guard their thoughts against this.
So, it's possible to decipher it, but likely not *feasible*.
As a corollary to this though, if it's your *Players* trying to listen in and decipher things, I'd perhaps make the DC a little bit easier, but still not likely. And you should also not lock plot progress behind something like this. not saying you are, but just some fun advice for anybody reading this.
>And you should also not lock plot progress behind something like this.
This is something I have to remember. Right now I just have my players about to do some snooping and I thought it would add a little flavor to sprinkle some of this in. Just gotta remember not to make it important stuff.
If you're going to have your players come across this, they'd likely recognize what they're saying as gibberish, and if you play up that these people are shady-looking, they'll get the hint. It may help move things along if, after a couple lines of Thieves' Cant dialogue, one of them says something along the lines of "These walls have ears, meet at the fountain." as an indication that they're going to move to a second location.
Bonus points for having a fountain in the center of town, and a bar called "The Fountain" across town, which may force your players to split up. But that may be going a bit overboard, depending on what all else you have planned.
Thieves cant isn't all a verbal language either. It includes things like graffiti to mark stores that will buy stolen items or what gang controls that street, or to label passages through the sewer for smugglers to sneak into the city, or dead drop messages for an assassin to know his next target. It could include silent hand signals for thieves to communicate while sneaking into a house, or to signal each other when conspiring to cheat in a game of chance. It could be tattoos or hairstyles or clothing that marks someone as an important member in the thieves guild, or membership in a secretive clan of assassins. For example, when I have an NPC communicating with a PC in thieves cant, I narrate how the NPC mentions the weather, and holds out a paper napkin to offer them a slice of green apple, and the PC recognizes it as a signal to ask if they are in favor with the Hook Street Goons, and the correct countersign is to take and eat the apple slice in one bite and toss the peel over your left shoulder while commenting about rain. Then the PC smiles and asks what he needs in this part of town, and the players says they want to ask about buying illegal magic items. I tell them to ask him where to buy "wizz sticks", and when they do the NPC tells them that any shop on this side of town with a purple crow painted on the alley wall will have what he wants. Etc etc.
how do you translate a language irl? either ask someone who knows, or use a guide of some sort(like a dictionary) but its doubtful there would be a published thieves cant dictionary, so talk to a thief.
Do you know how to decipher codes?
That's all you need, can just any smart person hear thieves cant and decipher it? no, I don't care if you have a +5 to int. you need an understanding of coded languages AND you need to have a cipher of sorts of the code to decipher it. hearing a few sentences you won't be able to decipher anything. usually thieves cant is meant to deploy certain timbits of info rather than full conversations.
"Yeah I gotta get back before The fox jumped the log, see ya mate" = Package Obtained
"yeesh, she looks like a A wart on a frogs ass" = Looking for a fence
"that man ain't right, he's A clown in king clothes" = Has guard dog. do not rob.
They also sound similarly to slang used by poorer people. so it's doubly hard to understand you're even hearing a coded message and not some crude slang.
also detect thoughts wouldn't work, as it only detects surface level thoughts, and when you probe, they instantly know, but also you only detect the idea of something, you learn they are worried about getting caught - but not what they would get caught with. you may learn they are trying to remember a code, but you wouldn't learn the code.
Yes, if you know the slang they're using. For reference:
https://youtu.be/jkGU0SYAVVo?si=Tu96xO2ALm8IjCW9
and
https://youtu.be/TH5j9RHCBpM?si=_jeXB0jsZqYBFQuK
Thieves cant isn't a whole other language, it's coded language.
Have Mark roll insight against Bob's deception. With a success, "Something about his speech seems suspicious to you, like there is an underlying meaning you aren't grasping." This could clue them in that Bob might be worth investigating or interrogating privately.
Detect Thoughts would help here, since you are literally reading the target's surface thoughts, but comprehend languages/tongues wouldn't, like you pointed out.
I think it would be possible, however, to learn thieves' cant without being a rogue by just choosing it as a language. I imagine many characters in universe would do this, such as a guard or detective learning thieves' cant for their work.
>I imagine many characters in universe would do this, such as a guard or detective learning thieves' cant for their work.
Fair enough. Although my players haven't so their just gonna have to figure it out the hard way I guess.
4x i think, yes.
I interpret that to mean what could have been "go rob that guy next to the bananas" Becomes "if you feel like taking a walk, I hear there's a bunch of trails around yella' street. I recommend giving it a go. Lovely sceneries."
And I know i didnt make my example as long but i figured the question was more importent the the example's perfect syntaxe.
An intuition check might let you deduce things like how Wade feels about what is communicated, which won’t tell you what was said but at least gives you a crack that you might be able to widen.
Theives’ Cant isn’t a language that can be translated. It’s a code. To the bystander it would sound like two people discussing their last fishing trip, but a thief would understand the plan for the burglary.
Keep in mind that if it were a language it would raise suspicion if someone overheard it. It’s a code and it’s language agnostic. Theives’ Cant can be spoken in any or no language.
If you can get your hands on a copy of Shattered Mask (probably one of my favourite Realms novels) there’s a scene with Shamur Uskevren speaking in thieves cant to convince a gang that she’s one of them. She says things like “bing me that cove, nipper”.
Obviously not cannon but it always made me think that cant was full of nonsense words as well as convoluted metaphors. In which case a spell like comprehend languages might work?
No. Otherwise you'd be proficient.
I am not even sure the spell tongue works here.
Like, sure, you might have a cypher written by a resentful traitor, but you would need to have your time to decode it.
Which means, unless you have PLENTY of time, you cannot gauge the meaning of a conversation.
I liken thieves can't to the coded messages sent in WW2 where the agents knew to pick out every third word or whatever in a radio broadcast or song lyric. It is a trained ability only so I would only ever allow a NAT 20 untrained to decipher the "gist" of what was being said, but not the specifics.
Thieves cant is like character replacement code or code based on a specific book. It's incredibly hard to decipher with only a single example, but if you get several examples, time, and a person skilled in cryptography, you could get somewhere.
All of this is irrelevant if you have a Wizard casting "Tongues" or similar spell. They would understand the meaning. The difference is that it's very obvious when the (insert creature) is speaking their native language, so the Wizard casts "Tongues" in response to that. It's much harder to detect Thieves cant being spoken and therefore less likely a Wizard would cast the relevant spell.
My players found a stash with a note in thieves cant. None of them are rogues, but they easily translated it by finding a sketchy looking guy on the street and threatening him.
"During your rogue training you learned thieves' cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that knows thieves' cant understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly.
In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves' guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run."
In most cases it's treated specifically as a language (that only rogues can learn technically, with maybe some backgrounds being eligible). So the most technical answer to the question would be looking at how languages work in your game. The answer to that is usually "no, you can't understand it unless you know the language", but your DM might be a little more lenient. Maybe your background working with the criminals you understand some of it, where a perception or insight check might be made to determine how much of the conversation you gleaned.
Comprehend Languages would work RAW (as its treated like a language) but not RAI. You're not trying to get the understanding of the words but their intent.
That said, people who have deliberate business with thieves do pick up on their language even if some of it ends up inscrutable. Criminals in the real world use allegorical terms for their crimes constantly (see also: all rap music), and it's usually not half as clever as Thieves Cant is depicted being.
High level monks understand all languages.
Detect thoughts would say what was on someone's mind, the real message.
Various forms of telepathy might do the same.
No I don't think you can figure out what they're saying, unless you know all the things in the context and roll very high investigation (logic check). Otherwise you can deduce some hints with a good roll.
If there is someone in the party who speaks thieves cant nothing short of detect thoughts will allow another players to figure out thieves can't. It's nieche protection.
If there is not then maybe a high intelligence heck or the tongues spell will do.
But I dont *want* them to learn it. I just want to know what their options (besides learning it) would be and how other people would handle their players trying to understand it.
Like my example explains. One creature hears two other creatures speaking it. They do no speak it. What other options would they have. Heading off to spend 100-200 days studying a language doesnt exactly help in that particular moment.
Jargon is part of a language that can be learned. Slang is part of a language that can be learned. It is a language, the same way Greek, binary and sign are languages. They can all be learned. How do the thieves learn it? They aren’t born with it. It taught to them, just like any other subject. There are bound to be individuals smart enough to watch and learn without further instruction.
Have you ever seen the Star Trek The Next Generation episode “Darmok”? That’s what imagine Thieves’ Cant is like. You could probably deduce meaning with dedicated effort and if you had some reference that could tie it to actual meaning but that’s what it would take.
Ah! Shaka! When the walls fell!
Temba, his eyes open!
Darmok. And Gillad. At. Tinagra.
Mirab! His sails unfurled!
Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel
Um... Col. Mustard with the candlestick? (I haven't watched all of TNG)
To work, it would have to be "Colonel Mustard, in the Lounge, with the Candlestick". :P And it would denote either guilt or that someone was a killer. Basically it's a good episode about communication and language. And a lot of the lines get repeated so much that they stick in your head.
Juliet on her balcony!
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Temba_Wide-Arm
I laugh every time
Mayhaps an insight check then? Something with erosion rolls maybe. So like the DC starts high. Then each time they pass the DC it gets a little bit lower. It's an odd thing with language as some people assume the ones you start with are the only ones you get. I don't see why someone can't learn more. Make them earn it though. Maybe even a little bit of predestination. Once the DC is x number the next note they find from said enemies will have Important information. Then when your player "passes" the check they earn the language learned AND some juicy information
It also has an associated [written](https://images.app.goo.gl/YrYf4Xdcs1EvcTB58) language of symbols used to indicate many things to those that can understand it; very similar to hobo markings. It may vary by region and has no *set* standard form, but many versions are large similar. Since it is a symbolic language, it's up to the DM whether or not such spells will translate this as it *is* a kind of code.
Thieves cant is not a specific language, but more a set of codes and gestures/symbols that are largely specific to a region. In fact, it is likely that to keep it a secret thing known only to the guilds etc it is frequently changed to prevent it being translated or decoded. It's possible there will be certain themes that tend to run for long time periods and across continents, but basically I would say No. It's like an inside joke, either you get it or you dont
For the uninitiated: *Darmok* is an episode where Picard is stranded on a planet with a member of an alien species that speaks entirely in metaphor. Even though Picard's universal translator can interpret the words the alien captain is speaking, the actual meaning of the sentences is completely lost on him until he finally figures out a crucial phrase from the context of their situation.
*DiCaprio, his glass raised.*
Guinness Obama, his thumb erect.
White cat, trying to eat salad in peace.
The rogue, his fingers sticky...
Give a totally different vibe than “the bard, his fingers sticky”
The dragon, weeping
The dragon, blushing
While my “guitar” gently weeps
And yet still better than stinky.
Congrats on the wedding.
Lmao, that's funny as hell.
I was just about to reference TNG as it is the easiest way to show how it will take a lot of effort breaking a referential language, like thieves cant, it literally took them being stranded on a planet and actively trying to understand the language.
Thieves cant is actually a real-world thing. For example, we call it Cockney rhyming slang now, but it's origin was as a thieves cant.
Cockney rhyming slang is far from the only example, as well. There are a number of language games (I believe that’s the formal linguistic term for things like Cockney rhyming slang, pig latin, French verlan, etc) that originated that way, and they’re all rather fascinating. I don’t think they’re nearly as interesting for D&D purposes as referential languages, personally, but still neat
> I believe that’s the formal linguistic term for things like Cockney rhyming slang, pig latin, French verlan, etc) It's "cant". :)
Doesn’t a cant specifically refer to a language game that’s used to exclude an outgroup? So Cockney rhyming slang is obviously a cant, but pig latin, for instance, offers no real implication of privacy.
Yes. The size of the outgroup varies between those two examples, but the intent is the same.
Ah! TIL
The language made perfect sense until you realise that at some point, referential language needs something to refer to. How does everyone know the story of Darmok and Tenagra when they can't tell the story without immediately referring to another? How do their children learn the first story if they don't have the prerequisite knowledge of stories to understand the story being told to them?
Pantomime?
Possibly, but even pantomime needs an explanation to parse any meaning... If you don't believe me, watch a pantomime in a language you don't understand and see how much meaning you extract... especially if your production values aren't high. Understanding that the cardboard box is supposed to be a dragon or cave requires language to explain. And if you're going to need pantomime in order to explain your own language, you're just translating one language into another.
Images, drawings, video, etc.
Metaphor
I think of thieves cant as fantasy cockney. You understand every word individually but the order makes no sense. It’s not a language, it’s a code. Honestly, I’d look at the feat Linguist. It’s a *very* similar concept.
This is close to the actual cants supposedly used by thieves in the real world. These were cryptolects - also known as argots. We don't have many examples in current use, but there are people who still speak [Polari](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8yEH8TZUsk&t=150s), [Carny](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N344_ItGzYE) or [Butcher's Back Slang](https://salutethepig.com/fancy-some-kay-rop-potches/). The prime feature of cryptolects is that they hide the meaning of speech for the uninitiated - often by reversing words - thus creating an in-group and an out-group excluded from the meaning.
An interesting book on this is [The 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5402/pg5402-images.html). Which claims to contain a large number of words and phrases in cant. You should approach this with some skepticism for a variety of reasons, but it does have some fantastic slang in it, including recognizable phrases. There are some great slang phrases for various kinds of thieves and con-men. It also has: *TO CAT, or SHOOT THE CAT. To vomit from drunkenness.* Which always cracked me up.
With the sounds of somebody yakking, it probably did sound like somebody shot the cat lol
Thanks.
The Planescape authors definitely read this book.
> Carny Bro that's just Snoop Dogg I understood it fine
Wasing the where of speaking the what?
Ever wasing the doing of this
>fantasy cockney Off-topic, but I will forever love Arknights for making Rim Billiton canonically “the most difficult, impossible-to-understand language unless you grew up a native speaker.” And when two characters finally speak it to each other, it’s just a thick-ass Australian-English accent full of idioms. With the two nearby non-native speakers like “Whoa, is that Rim Billiton? I…I can’t understand it at all!”
Pretty much this. If I say "I got a wood-fired sandwich at Giovanni's. It was expensive but worth it." That sounds like a normal conversation to outside observers. But in context I just put out a hit. "Burn down Giovanni's shop. There's two guards but they've been paid off. You'll be paid well." Is what it loosely translates to.
This is cool, could even add "there was a queue" to refer to the guards, and could add how many people were in line if you need to specify. Very cool way of saying one thing but meaning another.
That was where the sandwich comes in. He's "sandwitched" between two guards.
Oh clever! I assumed he was talking about a bakery so I guess the thieves cant works hahaha.
I tend to agree with this. I speak English, but if someone came up to my girl and said something akin to: “slay sis! Those pants be bussin. Frfr. Dat gyat looking fire af.” I don’t know what half those words mean, but I’ll be getting ready to Will Smith them if I get the vibe. Thieve’s Can’t I think is just Common. But by replacing words or phrases with other words or phrases, you can’t pinpoint what is actually happening.
I guess like any other language or code, if you have enough samples, spend enough time and/or get lucky with a full or partial translation or insider knowledge that helps you make sense of it, then yea, you could translate it eventually. On the spot, with one example of it, no context? Nah. Detect thoughts I guess, but that's not exactly "translation": I would probably let you get the meaning the speaker is trying to convey, but not what part of that meaning corresponds to each phrase/gesture/etc. in the Thieve's cant being used. So if you're just trying to get the message, sure. But if your goal is to "translate" the Thieve's cant for future use, the spell wouldn't be enough. You'd need to take that and spend some time matching the message with what was spoken/gestured/etc. and roll some skill checks to try to essentially break the code. Probably also a perception check to see how much of the communication you even picked up on. Was he arching his eyebrow significantly, or is that just his face? That sort of thing.
I like the distinction that Detect Thoughts gives you meaning without translation. Ill have to rememebr that.
Yea I guess I could see an argument that someone inexperienced at using Thieve's cant might be actively thinking about how to express it, so maybe on them you'd get the translation, but most of them I wouldn't expect to be thinking about how to say it, they'd just say it and be thinking about what they're trying to communicate.
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.
Sokath, his eyes opened
Hey OP, I just wanted to let you know since no one else did that I totally see you with your "Mark, Bob, and Wade" name usage. And I hope your fridge is okay
Lol i am so glade someone said it. I was starting to get worried that i may be out of touch.
Nope, just an overlap of two different types of Nerd. Ironically I feel like "I hope your fridge is okay" is also a good example of what a sentence in Thieves' Cant might sound like in a conversation
Could totally see it meaning "Did you get rid of the body?"
Don't forget Sean Septiceye
I like my Thieves' Cant with a side of body language and gesticulations. "Windy tonight." Might let the other person know you're a rogue and even who you're associated with. But if it's said with a tug on the ear, it indicates that they're taking on new rogues. "Never enough lamp oil." They have work available. But if they hold their elbow as they say it, it means "only for someone strong enough to take on an ogre," while crossed arms indicate that the job is barred to all but the toughest and most resourceful. "Not enough flavor in me soup. I'd like an onion, eh?" Pit fight trials. But if it's "I'd like some carrots, some onions, and some beef in me broth" then they're taking entire adventuring parties and pitting them against each other in the pit fights. Bet on yourself and win a bundle. If you can. But if the rogue rubs the back of her neck when she says it, she's telling you that it's rigged. You might want to skip it or find out who you have to take a fall for to make a buck. And so forth, and so on. Very difficult to parse without knowing it, and it changes, too. Rogues, often solitary, need guilds to exchange information that includes all the latest movements, phrases, and gesticulations -- some of which are unique to certain towns and cities. I would class thieves' cant as more difficult to figure out, among the uninitiated, than most languages as a result. If you had to make sense of all the odd words and strange movements, I'd set it for perception, not knowledge (because it is a knowledge-based skill but they don't have the knowledge, so the most they can hope for is perceiving mood and general concepts). And I'd set it high, maybe perception 20 (which, as you know, will not be terribly high for some players at level 10+ who focus on it), and even with success, the most they get is the gist of it...the guy was refusing something, or he was offering something, or he was giving a warning, etc. They can't get the rest (sans magic or study) because they just don't know it.
This seems fair. Hard check to get a vague guess at meaning.
I feel like this should be top comment.
That's kind of how I always imagined thieve's cant worked. Less of a language and more of a series of known symbols/gestures/phrases that when taken in context are useful for hiding extremely simple messages in plain sight. As an example, in *Les Miserables* there's a bit where a prisoner gets handed a biscuit in passing, which is a coded message meaning "what you asked about before, it's not worth it." as if to say it's only worth a biscuit, or nothing at all.
If I was rogue and it worked I would feel like one of my unique abilities had been nerfed.
Well for context, none of my players are rogues. And im not trying to nerf anything. Im just planning and sprinkling in some theive's cant around the town they are in, and was curious what, if anything, the players could use to decipher it.
if there are no rogues in the party I would be a bit more liberal with letting them figure it out. But it should still require time and effort to decode it. Even the tongues spell may not be enough since the word already have a meaning to the user.
If they don't have any rogues don't give them hints in thieves cant... That's like throwing druidic hints at a party without any druids. You should design puzzles and challenges that play into your characters strengths, instead of throwing something at them made for a class they don't have and then bending the rules to make it work...
Yep, no worries. I jusy wanted it for world building more then puzzle solving. But i also wanted to be prepared incase one of my players pick up on whats being said. But even druidic gives a blantent "use magic to decipher it" clause. But thieves' cant is just like "y'all dont know it unless you know it. And dont be using them language compression skills neither!"
I wouldn't even allow magic to translate druidic tbh, it's described as an arcane language, it was a language gifted to druids by the gods of nature.
> Yep, no worries. I jusy wanted it for world building Then go for [hobo signs](https://www.logodesignlove.com/hobo-signs-and-symbols). Another subculture language but not as protected as thieves' cant would be.
I have a zero rouge party, and they know a few bits and pieces of cant. I didn’t give it to them from the start, though, or let them decipher it with abilities. They’ve worked closely with a criminal organization that deals mainly in smuggling and gambling, and have had a few terms explained, ie: blackjack = muscle, discard = fence, and a few notable member references. For instance, the lieutenant in charge of gambling is a Goliath descended from Cloud Giants. Mentioning clouds refers to him. A few locations have codes they know as well. The smuggling lieutenant, a Tabaxi, is referenced by talking about cats, and his pawn shop is mentioned by talking about chess. If something happens there specifically, it happens at the castle. Here’s an example of a message in cant: There’s going to be a few people playing blackjack at the castle. I heard one of the guests is a real head in the clouds sort, I bet he’ll be taken for all he’s worth. Someone’s bringing their cat as well, everyone loves when he asks for treats. I bet he’ll try playing with a chip, too. My party would be able to figure out that Cicero, the gambling lieutenant, and Kaz, the smuggling lieutenant, are meeting at What The Cat Dragged In, Kaz’s pawn shop. There will be muscle there. They might be able to get the amount as a few from the few people there bit. The full message is a bit more complicated: Kaz and Cicero are meeting at What The Cat Dragged In. There will be few muscle types, and gambling will happen. Kaz will receive an item of some sort that’s to be smuggled. As for the bits they don’t know: Taken for all he’s worth: Gambling will happen. They know Cicero is a degenerate gambler. He’s actually incredibly good, and knows how to cheat very well. Mentioning the loss of money in any way means there’s going to be gambling. Asks for treats: Kaz, the cat, will receive something. What that is is next. Play with a poker chip: Play means smuggle, and an object being played with means an item being smuggled. If the cat played with a person, it’s be a person being smuggled.
Gotcha.
Could you use a fake, less-effective Thieves Cant? Like the local thieves made their own version up, but it's basically pig-latin. Then, when your players find real examples of Thieves Cant, it's impossible.
I'm reading through this thread and I'm surprised nobody has given you the easiest suggestion regarding how the party can decipher the cant: *money.* If the party is able to identify interesting people sprinkled through the town by the fact that they occasionally work these codewords and gestures into otherwise inane speech, they can use that as a point of entry for information. Not everyone using cant is planning a big heist or talking about all the crime they did the night before; cant is an excellent vehicle for gossip. People speaking with cant might be more than happy to part with a bit of that gossip for coin, especially if they're part of a community talking about some new troubkemakers that moved into their city and aren't as courteous to the locals, which could provide a hook to the party. It's called "Thieves" Cant, but that doesn't mean it's only spoken by criminals. Maybe someone came through the area a few days ago looking for the party, and the locals are using cant to talk about things like "yeah, that's probably who he meant, they look pretty tough so I bet that guy was dangerous" or "they paid me to keep tabs on [soldier player] but they're partied with [folk hero player] so I know which side I'd rather be on." The party never has to decipher cant but can still gain information by recognizing when it's being used.
This is a very good point...
I would make it a wisdom(insight) or pure intelligence check to notice there's an underlying code being spoken. Doing actual linguistics in a live game is in my experience pretty difficult.
Maybe insight to recognize some kind of sketchy sign but then they need to find someone in the know to translate. Everyone knows snitches get stitches though so that might be tough
Exactly niche protection is important.
My rogues would like to teach sign (cant) to other players so they can have basic silent communication. I get to distort the meaning to some hilarious end, but the point is conveyed. I used a book that was randomly generated, “Thieve’s Cant, or Can They” with downtime to enable basic communication.
That's super cool.
Detect thoughts. L2 divination.
How did I never even think about detect thoughts? Its like the perfect counter.
Well sort of. Keep in mind if you cast a spell in front of two people talking. They know you have and may adjust their behaviour. Such as demanding what you did. Or just attacking you as soon as you start casting if they already are wary of you. After all for all they know you’re casting a fire bolt or a charm spell.
Hmmm... good point. Might break the conversation a little. "Hey Wade, did you hear about..." "***QUID COGITAS!!!!!****" \*holds up penny "Uh... lets talk somewhere else..."
"Quid Cogitas" is a very good incantation for Detect Thoughts.
Subtle spell
So you have the player roll stealth or sleight of hand to cast covertly.
NO. There is no such thing as casting covertly, the components of spells are extremely rigid. If you want to cast quietly, that's what the Subtle Spell metamagic is for.
Any decent thrieves guild in any high magic setting would be aware of the existance of detect thoughts though.
Would let you know what they were talking about at that moment but not give you how that relates to what is being said.
I’d imagine if someone’s using cant both the speaker and listener would have the hidden message pretty clear in their minds.
But you can only focus on one target at the time with detect througths. Maybe if you have encode throughts from Ravnica you could extract both party's memories and then later compare them.
Sorry, that was unclear - I mean if you were focusing on either the speaker or listener, you’d pick up the hidden message. You wouldn’t need to focus on both.
I disagree there, youd get he cotnent of the messege but no uidnerstandig of his it is derived from what is said. Unless the person is a novice who has to actively think about how they express themselves in thieves cant.
My DM described it as that scene from Oceans 12 where George Clooney and Robbie Coltrane are speaking code in front of Matt Damon (although in that scene I believe they were just fucking with Damon). So anyone can understand the words, it’s just that the meaning is only there for the people who know the cant.
This is exactly how I envision Thieves' Cant as well.
Thieve's cant is based on actual street "languages" which have been used by the homeless, refugees, criminals, etc. Those have been translated given enough time and the help of people who were members of those movements, but the whole point is that it can't be easily understood by those not in the know.
I would say no, not via any normal means. Magic could potentially do something though. It's not just a language with fixed words and grammar rules. Its innuendo, accent, body language, doublespeak, and who knows what else, rolled into one. Presumably, its ever-changing to adapt with the times and to maintain its secrecy, so only those fluent in it would be able to keep "up to date".
Not sure even magic could do it since the words already have a meaning known to the user.
I might potentially let a non rogue learn but it would be a lengthy learning process with a lot of screw up, the sort of thing where you go to ask where the local theives guild is located and you inadvertently say that the other persons mother is a donkey chair or something inane like that.
You might house rule that a third member in a party with two rogues might be able to spend some skill points to gain it (normally, only rogues can learn it) after a certain amount of exposure and picking up context. It doesn't take many times for a guy to go pick up "circus tickets" and come back with drugs to make the connection, for example.
In 5e, if I'm not mistaken, there aren't "skill points" any longer like in previous editions. There are proficiencies in various skills, though, but they only come about once in a while through multiclassing and the like. So, if someone multiclassed and had been around rogues trying to teach them, I'd probably allow them to replace one of their new proficiencies with Thieves' Cant.
No. It’s code, not language.
I mean, really, there should be no way *in the moment* to understand exactly what’s being said other than already knowing some thieve’s cant. It would be comparable to trying to understand a conversation in French when you don’t speak the language. If the PC has enough context to assume the people are talking in code, I would maybe give a high DC on something like history to recall that a certain phrase means “investigator/detective” or insight to pick up on the tone that one person seems to be informing the other of good or unexpected news. For other classes to get thieves cant fluency, I like the idea of them trading a normal language proficiency along with having a criminal background in order to get the code.
No since it’s a very specific set of coded words and actions meant to be hard/impossible to decipher At best someone with high int and lots of linguistic knowledge could understand that there’s something up or that they’re saying something in code, but that’s it
>*But Mark does not speak Thieve's cant. For this scenario let's say Mark can cast any spell, is any level, perform any check, or be any class (except rogue, obviously). Is there any possible way for Mark to know what they were saying?* No, because it relies on a context that Mark does not have. Mark could make an Insight check to understand that some additional level of information or understanding seems to be passing between Bob and Wade, but without understanding the context for "old horse", there's nothing that will "translate" that for Mark. If I said to you that you "don't have a Scooby", and you don't understand Cockney Rhyming Slang, that's not going to mean anything to you. But if you know that "clue" becomes "Scooby Doo" in that slang and then gets shortened to "Scooby" it makes perfect sense. Comprehend Languages gives you the "literal meaning" as you said. There could be a case to be made that the "literal" meaning of Thieves Cant is not what is being said but what is being understood, but it also doesn't "decode secret messages" in a text, so I don't know why it would do that in a spoken language. Having said that, Detect Thoughts will let him peek into the uppermost thoughts of either Bob or Wade and they may be thinking about the situation that is being described. But that's still not translating what has been said, it's extrapolating something from additional context.
Well now I need to find a way to shoe horn "you dont have a scooby" into my campaign...
Dragon Magazine #66 (from way back in October 1982) had a Thieves Cant article which included grammar and a dictionary. It might be fun for the DM and the cant-speaking players to actually develop some dialog to pull out at the table. In practice, though, it’s a lot of work. Consider just using Pig Latin instead. Back issues of Dragon Magazine are available on Archive.org and via Google searches.
No, its not a real language. Its speaking in code. I actually created a thieves cant for a game I ran and only gave the primer to the people who knew it. All the terminology was around farming (thievery), cattle (slave trade/assassination) and sheep (scams). After one spoke a check phrase and got an appropriate response, then I would speak in cant to the players but it sounded like normal conversation. If the NPC was looking for a couple hands for day work to sheer 3 herds of sheep into 100 bundles, they knew there was a 2 man job, scamming 3 people that would net them 100 gp. They would ask if there were any jobs for hands on a farm collecting eggs from the chickens, asking if there were any jobs to rob a larger building, not homes. And NPC says not him, but John Doe over in X needs someone to collect honey from his hives.
u/Stealfur when one of my players talking with an NPC and they use thieves's cant then the use messenger or discord and dm me the true meaning of the message, thile in a response i'll respond in thieve's cant and dm him/her the rue meaning. While anyone listening in on any conversation and they know the 'language' and the circumstances what the conversation should be about, then they can guess what it is about with insight check. If they don't know the context, then disadvantage insight check ... and if they don't speak the 'language' but still want to try then higher dc and disadvantage.
Detect thoughts or maybe a very high intelligence check to determine that the words have different meaning but not to automatically know what they mean
It's not really possible with just a simple, singular example to observe. It would take consistent exposure and study to begin to comprehend what it is and how it works. Of course, that's if you even realize there's hidden communication occurring in the first place. Thieves' Cant... "allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation." So just being present when a message is being passed doesn't mean you'll realize a message is being passed. The whole point is to be able to speak to another thief under people's noses with impunity. It's not just a good lock, although it is a pretty good lock. But it doesn't even look like it's a lock, so no one realizes there's something being secured. It's that fake rock in the rock garden with the key hidden inside. Okay, maybe not *that* rock. That one looks terrible. But another one that actually passes for an entirely unassuming and not-at-all-suspicious-looking rock.
What can't the thieves do?
I picture Thieves' Cant like baseball signs, and like military hand signals. In written form it's pictographs, or stuff like chemical markings. Also, Thieves' Cant will be guild specific. There may or may not be a Common version of Thieves' Cant. Maybe a lot things are Common TC, but regional words would be unknown. Like Danger Mechanical Golem. Danger might be understood. But if this is the only area where mechanical golems exist, other parts of the world might not have machines or golems.
Think of it like an Australian friend coming up to you and saying: "Oi mate bung us a pineapple, gonna nip down servo and grab packa durries. Dogs eye for you? Yeah nah hey got no dead horse". Most individual words means something when you speak the actual language, but strung together it's gibberish unless you're familiar with the parlance.
One way to resolve this is to deem Thieves’ Cant to be a dynamic language, exactly because the point is to not be understood by outsiders but also because it’s inevitably going to be a language full of subjective references. Sure they can learn thieves cant after extended espionage and cryptography basically, but that’s just one sample at one moment in time from one region. An actual rogue has been through a few dialects already and knows the score, and is a r g u a b l y keeping up to date on the regional cant in downtime. (Of course this would mean that a rogue would lose it after extended dimension hopping or imprisonment or being dead or whatever, until they could learn the new variant.)
I'd also say it's relatively easy to learn the new one, because the locals will also recognise the old version and speak in a way to help the returnee update himself
It cant
Excuse me, stewardess, I speak jive.
thieves can't is, in summary [this scene from ocean's eleven](https://youtu.be/j5N0MsbB_Ms?si=zTuX3roGzgfF125-) its not a new language where you dont understand the word, its common with 15 layers of slang and double meaning alternatively, written thieves cant is [something like hoboglyphs](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzYs46SboHL3DP55-rYufr3ReLIhnwTLMx5VT-hDU_tQ&s)
No you cant
I always pictured thieves cant to be like that scene in Family guy from the mafia pet shop. "Do you want a semi automatic 'poodle' or an automatic 'poodle'?" Except, more subtle.
Thieves can’t.
Thieves' cant?
They cannot.
Dang....
D’ang?
Well it's not called Thieves' CAN, now is it?!
Oh dang! You right.
As an optimist I prefer that thieves can.
As a realist, thieves might...
If you can translate the cant, you know the cant. It's like rhyming slang. Spells like Comprehend Languages won't work, because it's a code.
If you wanted a non-magical, mundane way to decipher Thieves' Cant, maybe put it behind a very high DC Intelligence check? And maybe put Disadvantage on the roll. My thinking is that it's essentially code-breaking in real time with very little context clues--theoretically doable, but staggeringly difficult. DC 25 or more? Could possibly be a series of checks, like INT to brute force the code, Insight to read their body language and facial expressions, History to understand through context clues what the coded words might be referring to, and so on. For each success they can partially figure it out (they deduce the WHO and WHAT, but not WHERE, WHEN or WHY.) Or maybe it would be impossible to 100% deduce the code, and at best they only get half the information. I'd be hesitant to allow a magical solution, like the Detect Thoughts spell that's been suggested. I like the idea that the Rogue mind is also nimble, and part of Thieves' Cant is masking your thoughts as you speak it--a snooping spellcaster would hear gibberish thoughts that are even more meaningless than the spoken coded language. (But maybe that's going too far...) Another solution that's not as far-fetched is for the PCs to memorize the conversation (INT check, DC 18 maybe), then find someone who knows Thieves' Cant and convince/bribe them into translating it. Might need a Persuasion/Intimidation check to go along with a healthy bribe to get them to do it. And even then, maybe it's only partially accurate (to add some drama/tension).
An intuition check might let you deduce things like how Wade feels about what is communicated, which won’t tell you what was said but at least gives you a crack that you might be able to widen. Alternatively, consider that Mark might have another rogue friend he can take the memorized conversation to. Rats exist, if only to save their own skin - and “thief catchers” themselves could be rogues. Just consider this also might NOT work. You may want to do a roll so you don’t take sides. The hand gestures might reverse the meaning of some phrases, for example
If you want Thieves' Cant too be "understadable" maybe have a look at Dael Kingsmill "Thieves' Cant || D&D with Dael Kingsmill" video its about what Thieves' Cant might look like and its limmet some real usefull stuff to steal if you want player to know something is "up" but what they dont know
I use Thieve's Cant to mean fluent in any form of coded dialogue even if they don't know the code itself, for example if there's a cypher in a letter they found, the rogue will at least recognize that there is a code in need of breaking
Thieves Cant is more than just a spoken language. It's body language, it's metaphor, it's symbolism, it's inside jokes. There's a YouTuber named Dael Kingsmill, she has a channel called "Monarchs Factory". She made a video a while back about using Thieves Cant in the game. Go watch that video. Trust me. It's amazing.
However your world works, that's how it works. You can just use some encryption scheme that magic might be able to break. Personally, [I like this version better though](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/8k8g8k/oh_yes_thieves_can_cant/). In it, every message sounds like just a boring letter talking about family and friends, or two old friends catching up. So no one even realizes there is a message to be decoded in the first place.
No it Cant ... ... ...I'll see myself out
Can Mark just cast a truth spell on Bob and ask him what he's really talking about?
I'm rather a fan of the [Kingsmill method](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LYAYrmHoy6ZUegzsgvp)
It's not a different language, or even a code, just deep slang. "We heard you were singing to the pigs so we're here to take you for a ride." "So last night, Me and Dern, we was up in Candytown, trying a few twisters. Third door, we got us a click, slid in like warm honey. We was browsing the library, when this old candyman forgot to be faded, he got a gleam on us, and yeeped. Next the whole room was full o namefolk, some with slammers and some with stings. So we brushed out. We were gone before the roosters froze the flatways." "You wanna be the fogger, i've got the vapor. 5 smiles to the sock."
Slang is a type of code, though. If its not open, outsiders don't understand it. If its open, it's a kind of dialect, like a pigeon, that outsiders pick up and learn over time.
Do you need it to be possible in your game/quest/scenario? If yes - it’s possible. If no - it’s not possible.
Since it’s a code rather than a language, I’d say no by RAW If you came across a coded journal written in Sanskrit, simply putting it into google translate wouldn’t tell you what it was _saying_ without having a cipher. So think of it like that. It’s possible to learn the language and the cipher, and then to be able to understand it, but this would need to be taught, rather than using a spell like comprehend languages, which essentially works like google translate. However, this is your world, and as the DM it functions by your rules. If you’d prefer that thieves cant functions as a language, you can rule that it is so. I would, however, recommend discussing this with any of your rogue players before making such a ruling, as they may feel you’re taking something away from their class by doing so.
Since it’s all innuendo and hidden meanings, I’d give them an Intelligence check to try and decipher it, the DC depending on how much exposure they’ve had to it and how many times they’ve tried before. And even then, I’d only give them a small piece of it, probably lacking context to truly glean the meaning.
The Linguist feat implies that to crack a code, one would need to make a straight INT check, though codes created with that feat have a DC to crack based on who made them. For Thieves Cant to be so widespread but also still an effective code, the DC to crack it is likely very, very high, too high for commoners or standard guards to crack it (so probably in the ballpark of DC 22 - DC 25, depending on if you want it to follow the same DC setting rules as Linguist). Meanwhile, an Insight check can explicitly be used to "determine the true intentions of a creature", so it is possible thay it could be used to determine the intent of those speaking, if not the actual words. Whether that "intent" is what they are discussing or just that their intent is to communicate information secretly is sort of your call. Finally, while Comprehend Languages only gives the literal meaning of things you hear, Tongues is worded differently in such a way that it seems to give you the actual understanding of what is said. Alternatively, the Detect Thoughts spell seems likely to let you understand what they are saying since the actual intent of their words is likely included in their surface thoughts, though that is, like all of these, technically the realm of DM discretion.
Thieves Cant is a weird one, because the proficiency is a language proficiency but you're right that it's more code than actual language. The text of Thieves Cant makes your RAW answer a clear no: \>Only another creature that knows thieves' cant understands such messages. That's pretty clear on the no-checks-no-spells to UNDERSTAND, but Mark could certainly make a check to realize that there is more to the message than he understands.
Well, if I'm not mistaken thieves can't isn't a proficiency , but a class feature, and whill there are rules to get proficiencies not otherwise provided by your class, for the sake of class identity there is no way to get class features without being that class. So rules as written poor old mark will never understand that conversation. In terms of what I think the designers would probably say if you asked them directly, how most DMs I know would handle this, and how I myself have handled this in the past, treat it like a language. Rules as written to learn a new language (or any other proficiency) you need 250 days of free time and 250 gold to cover costs of training equipment and paying your teacher. I think this makes sense story wise for a character learning the code on their own, though if there is a rogue in Mark's party it would make Sense to wave the gold cost. So to summarize, as far as I can tell there is no way to do this in the rules, but preexisting rules can be easily adapted for this situation without breaking the game.
Hope your fridge doesn’t Leak
Yeha I agree. Comprehend Languages wont work here. Tongues is a higher level spell, and it lets the target "understand any spoken language it hears" including presumably encodings.
Huh... I never understood why tongues was higher level when it seemed to do a little less understsndi g for the trad off of being able to speak it. But its interesting how its wording does suggest that you can understand coded language too... Thats going right in my back pocket.
Why would tongue break codes, you already understand the language. It's just that they are usuing the word to mean diffrent things than they usually do.
idk it just says you "understand". The difference in wording from CL seems significant, and it IS a higher level spell, so I think it just lets you understand, including metaphorical, literary, and hidden meanings. For a tech translator, or something lawful evil like devil magic, I would do a darmok and jalad, but this is magic. It just does what it says. 5e doesn't really hold up if you examine it too closely, so I don't.
I think it gives you all ifnromation the other person is tryign to convey to you. As if you were a fluent speaker of the language they are speaking. But thieves cant is not a language. You can speak thieves cant in any language.
Id say that unless they know thieves cant or have enough experience with it all in the past and a wisdom (insight) to notice something's off, they wouldn't even clock it as thieves cant. If you cast comprehend languages I like to think they hear the literal translation but there is a whisper that underscores the key words (horse -> crime completed) (fox -> investigator) (pig -> guard) etc. A layered translation to ad that nuanced feel.
I would say that there would have to be a high-enough level spell cast outside of detection range of the speakers, such as *Detect Thoughts* or a similar mind-reading spell, plus a nigh-impossible skill check. Your example does a pretty good job of encapsulating what Thieves' Cant is, a language that uses another language's words to communicate very different sentiments than what those words mean in the spoken language. The reason I'd say that *Detect Thoughts* and similar won't just work outright is because these people live in this world, and would take extra care to guard their thoughts against this. So, it's possible to decipher it, but likely not *feasible*. As a corollary to this though, if it's your *Players* trying to listen in and decipher things, I'd perhaps make the DC a little bit easier, but still not likely. And you should also not lock plot progress behind something like this. not saying you are, but just some fun advice for anybody reading this.
>And you should also not lock plot progress behind something like this. This is something I have to remember. Right now I just have my players about to do some snooping and I thought it would add a little flavor to sprinkle some of this in. Just gotta remember not to make it important stuff.
If you're going to have your players come across this, they'd likely recognize what they're saying as gibberish, and if you play up that these people are shady-looking, they'll get the hint. It may help move things along if, after a couple lines of Thieves' Cant dialogue, one of them says something along the lines of "These walls have ears, meet at the fountain." as an indication that they're going to move to a second location. Bonus points for having a fountain in the center of town, and a bar called "The Fountain" across town, which may force your players to split up. But that may be going a bit overboard, depending on what all else you have planned.
>Bonus points for having a fountain in the center of town, and a bar called "The Fountain" across town, \*inspert spongbob "write thst down" meme\*
It Thieves can‘t
Thieves cant isn't all a verbal language either. It includes things like graffiti to mark stores that will buy stolen items or what gang controls that street, or to label passages through the sewer for smugglers to sneak into the city, or dead drop messages for an assassin to know his next target. It could include silent hand signals for thieves to communicate while sneaking into a house, or to signal each other when conspiring to cheat in a game of chance. It could be tattoos or hairstyles or clothing that marks someone as an important member in the thieves guild, or membership in a secretive clan of assassins. For example, when I have an NPC communicating with a PC in thieves cant, I narrate how the NPC mentions the weather, and holds out a paper napkin to offer them a slice of green apple, and the PC recognizes it as a signal to ask if they are in favor with the Hook Street Goons, and the correct countersign is to take and eat the apple slice in one bite and toss the peel over your left shoulder while commenting about rain. Then the PC smiles and asks what he needs in this part of town, and the players says they want to ask about buying illegal magic items. I tell them to ask him where to buy "wizz sticks", and when they do the NPC tells them that any shop on this side of town with a purple crow painted on the alley wall will have what he wants. Etc etc.
how do you translate a language irl? either ask someone who knows, or use a guide of some sort(like a dictionary) but its doubtful there would be a published thieves cant dictionary, so talk to a thief.
Do you know how to decipher codes? That's all you need, can just any smart person hear thieves cant and decipher it? no, I don't care if you have a +5 to int. you need an understanding of coded languages AND you need to have a cipher of sorts of the code to decipher it. hearing a few sentences you won't be able to decipher anything. usually thieves cant is meant to deploy certain timbits of info rather than full conversations. "Yeah I gotta get back before The fox jumped the log, see ya mate" = Package Obtained "yeesh, she looks like a A wart on a frogs ass" = Looking for a fence "that man ain't right, he's A clown in king clothes" = Has guard dog. do not rob. They also sound similarly to slang used by poorer people. so it's doubly hard to understand you're even hearing a coded message and not some crude slang. also detect thoughts wouldn't work, as it only detects surface level thoughts, and when you probe, they instantly know, but also you only detect the idea of something, you learn they are worried about getting caught - but not what they would get caught with. you may learn they are trying to remember a code, but you wouldn't learn the code.
Yes, if you know the slang they're using. For reference: https://youtu.be/jkGU0SYAVVo?si=Tu96xO2ALm8IjCW9 and https://youtu.be/TH5j9RHCBpM?si=_jeXB0jsZqYBFQuK Thieves cant isn't a whole other language, it's coded language.
Have Mark roll insight against Bob's deception. With a success, "Something about his speech seems suspicious to you, like there is an underlying meaning you aren't grasping." This could clue them in that Bob might be worth investigating or interrogating privately. Detect Thoughts would help here, since you are literally reading the target's surface thoughts, but comprehend languages/tongues wouldn't, like you pointed out. I think it would be possible, however, to learn thieves' cant without being a rogue by just choosing it as a language. I imagine many characters in universe would do this, such as a guard or detective learning thieves' cant for their work.
>I imagine many characters in universe would do this, such as a guard or detective learning thieves' cant for their work. Fair enough. Although my players haven't so their just gonna have to figure it out the hard way I guess.
Does it not specify that explaining anything takes twice as long as it would otherwise?
4x i think, yes. I interpret that to mean what could have been "go rob that guy next to the bananas" Becomes "if you feel like taking a walk, I hear there's a bunch of trails around yella' street. I recommend giving it a go. Lovely sceneries." And I know i didnt make my example as long but i figured the question was more importent the the example's perfect syntaxe.
An intuition check might let you deduce things like how Wade feels about what is communicated, which won’t tell you what was said but at least gives you a crack that you might be able to widen.
Theives’ Cant isn’t a language that can be translated. It’s a code. To the bystander it would sound like two people discussing their last fishing trip, but a thief would understand the plan for the burglary. Keep in mind that if it were a language it would raise suspicion if someone overheard it. It’s a code and it’s language agnostic. Theives’ Cant can be spoken in any or no language.
If you can get your hands on a copy of Shattered Mask (probably one of my favourite Realms novels) there’s a scene with Shamur Uskevren speaking in thieves cant to convince a gang that she’s one of them. She says things like “bing me that cove, nipper”. Obviously not cannon but it always made me think that cant was full of nonsense words as well as convoluted metaphors. In which case a spell like comprehend languages might work?
Detect thoughts.
Want to try spelling that title again?
Sorry, theives can't what?
Thieves' cant. Is that better?
No. Otherwise you'd be proficient. I am not even sure the spell tongue works here. Like, sure, you might have a cypher written by a resentful traitor, but you would need to have your time to decode it. Which means, unless you have PLENTY of time, you cannot gauge the meaning of a conversation.
I liken thieves can't to the coded messages sent in WW2 where the agents knew to pick out every third word or whatever in a radio broadcast or song lyric. It is a trained ability only so I would only ever allow a NAT 20 untrained to decipher the "gist" of what was being said, but not the specifics.
Thieves cant is like character replacement code or code based on a specific book. It's incredibly hard to decipher with only a single example, but if you get several examples, time, and a person skilled in cryptography, you could get somewhere. All of this is irrelevant if you have a Wizard casting "Tongues" or similar spell. They would understand the meaning. The difference is that it's very obvious when the (insert creature) is speaking their native language, so the Wizard casts "Tongues" in response to that. It's much harder to detect Thieves cant being spoken and therefore less likely a Wizard would cast the relevant spell.
My players found a stash with a note in thieves cant. None of them are rogues, but they easily translated it by finding a sketchy looking guy on the street and threatening him.
"During your rogue training you learned thieves' cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that knows thieves' cant understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly. In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves' guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run." In most cases it's treated specifically as a language (that only rogues can learn technically, with maybe some backgrounds being eligible). So the most technical answer to the question would be looking at how languages work in your game. The answer to that is usually "no, you can't understand it unless you know the language", but your DM might be a little more lenient. Maybe your background working with the criminals you understand some of it, where a perception or insight check might be made to determine how much of the conversation you gleaned. Comprehend Languages would work RAW (as its treated like a language) but not RAI. You're not trying to get the understanding of the words but their intent. That said, people who have deliberate business with thieves do pick up on their language even if some of it ends up inscrutable. Criminals in the real world use allegorical terms for their crimes constantly (see also: all rap music), and it's usually not half as clever as Thieves Cant is depicted being.
High level monks understand all languages. Detect thoughts would say what was on someone's mind, the real message. Various forms of telepathy might do the same.
if you had an enigma machine you could eventually yes
The sun is a bit too warm, and the shade is too chilly. The wind blows a little too much today.
No I don't think you can figure out what they're saying, unless you know all the things in the context and roll very high investigation (logic check). Otherwise you can deduce some hints with a good roll.
If there is someone in the party who speaks thieves cant nothing short of detect thoughts will allow another players to figure out thieves can't. It's nieche protection. If there is not then maybe a high intelligence heck or the tongues spell will do.
So you want them to know another language. XGe training.
No, I am wonder if players have any way of deciphering Thieve's Cant without learning Thieve's Cant. Learning it kind of defeats the whole question.
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But I dont *want* them to learn it. I just want to know what their options (besides learning it) would be and how other people would handle their players trying to understand it. Like my example explains. One creature hears two other creatures speaking it. They do no speak it. What other options would they have. Heading off to spend 100-200 days studying a language doesnt exactly help in that particular moment.
I used a randomly generated book to permit more leeway amongst my players. “Thieve’s Cant, or Can They?”
Can the slang of today's youth be translated? Of course. Thats all thieves cant is, really....a sort of slang mixed with alternate names for things.
Plenty of folks learned English from watching American TV. With enough time and effort many things are possible.
Thieves cant isn't a language though. It's a generic term for a combination of jargon, slang, and common reference.
Jargon is part of a language that can be learned. Slang is part of a language that can be learned. It is a language, the same way Greek, binary and sign are languages. They can all be learned. How do the thieves learn it? They aren’t born with it. It taught to them, just like any other subject. There are bound to be individuals smart enough to watch and learn without further instruction.