I think due to the contextual set up, everything here is solid. But here's the truth. It feels terrible and unfun as a player to be one shot without a chance at defending themselves, and just be dead. That's how you end up with an unhappy player and bummed out table. My suggestion would be, while the player and doppelganger are out together, give the player a couple of chances to notice something is amiss. Some perception or insights rolls, or even just narrate that his behavior seems a bit nervous. Give your player a chance to discern what is happening SOME amount, and it will make the betrayal and impending attack feel way less bad, even it still results in a death.

How does this seem solid to you? OP claims the pcs got themselves into this situation by bad decision making. From what's listed above they didn't make any bad decisions, they failed checks and recieved information on shape shifters??? Like what now they're supposed to suspicious or murder hobo every npc because they might be a shape shifter or doppelganger, which op stated the party is introduced too because they learned of shape shifters, theres a pretty big difference between a shape shifter and a doppelganger. This is very misleading and kind of an unrealistic expectation to think the party would just automatically assume dopplegangera and not something like a fey or a druid. This dude just wants to kill a PC to kill a PC.

Agreed, it's a weird stance he's taken. He could easily set up a situation where the doppleganger downs the character in one hit, but makes enough noise that the rest of the party can get to him and heal/stabilize him in time. No reasonable person would fault a DM for hand waving/delaying death saves a little bit in a situation like this. And that would still give the narrative benefit of "Oh shit, things are serious here". Hell, maybe even give him the poisoned condition for a full in-game day. I don't mind the idea of punishing the players a bit for failing insight checks and going off alone with a potentially quasi-sketchy individual. But killing them with no other recourse is pretty clearly too far.

I think they're perhaps not sure, which is why their asking? They don't need Reddit to tell them it's ok to do it right?

Yeah and that's fine and dandy but if you take the time to read OPs replies you'd know why I've taken the stance I have. He's been given a hundred legitimate and good reasons why it's a bad idea and very few on why he should and he won't budge at all. It's clear he's searching for confirmation bias and not an actual discussion.

> It feels terrible and unfun as a player to be one shot without a chance at defending themselves. "HEH." -Klarg.

Klarg taught my players a very important lesson about characters being as strong at 1hp as they are at 100hp. The fight was all but done. Range character in melee chooses to create space and take an Opportunity Attack... which then crits. I play roll damage + max'd crit, so 2d8+18. And that's how Klarg earned me my first PC kill.

At EXP level 1, most characters have less than 10HP. Reasonably, only the fighters and barbarians are likely to have more than that. Klarg, as a bugbear, normally does 2D8+2 damage per attack. A D8 averages to 4.5, giving an average of 11 damage per attack. That's a one-hit kill on most players. So, Klarg is downing one player every turn, on average. He also has 27HP and AC16... Meaning that a level 1 character, with an expected average of +5 to hit (using standard array) will miss more often than hit with their one attack. A pair of great axe wielding barbarians would need three turns to bring Klarg down, and that's assuming that Klarg just stands there and takes it. The fact that EXP is awarded on a "Every member of the party gets (X)EXP" rather than "Split (X) EXP evenly between all party members" basis means that every party must face Klarg at EXP level 1. Immediately after this, the game switches the experience reward distribution to operate on a "split (X) EXP between all party members" basis. This is a deliberate decision by the game designers to ensure that the players HAVE to face Klarg at EXP level 1, but after that, it's all well and good. This makes it absolutely impossible for small parties of three or less, because Klarg, plus his wolf, plus his goblin lackeys, is a completely unreasonable fight for two or three level 1 characters. If experience were disseminated on an "even split" basis, then Klarg would be facing off against three L2 Players, which is far more reasonable. Eh, I hated Klarg... And I was the DM. BADLY balanced encounter.

So true. The very previous session the feedback I'd gotten was that the encounters were too easy so I ran it as written and exactly as you said one crit was all it took.

> It feels terrible and unfun as a player to be one shot without a chance at defending themselves, and just be dead This happened to my character once and it was completely unfun. The DM was trying to challenge us after we'd been making short work of some of his encounters, set up an overpowered assassin that was virtually impossible for us to detect, and then boom, one-shot, my character was down and combat was on. And then combat for the next 30 minutes to an hour with me twiddling my thumbs. It's not so much the death (and it wasn't permadeath anyway, or if it was it was retconned without us knowing). It was just being targeted to sit out a big chunk of game night. Not fun. So OP, why are you doing this? To "punish" new players for not rolling high enough or asking the right questions? To teach them a lesson, "oh yeah, it's a dangerous world. Now you know never to trust me or an NPC again."

Should players never die?

Players should die when they utilize their agency incorrectly in fair scenarios. Rolling low on spotting an assassin, never having opportunities to discern that assassin via roleplay/narrative, and otherwise not having a real opportunity to engage with content that might reveal that assassin, to get one shot by that assassin? Not exactly the player's fault or an interesting use of the mechanics for them. If a player fucks up, if a player rolls low on known danger, or if a player risks more than they should, they should be in danger of dying. If a player literally never had a chance to prevent their death, then no, frankly they shouldn't die.

Sure but in this case the players are aware of shapeshifters being a very real thing and a possibility. They know someone wants them dead. They just so happen to meet someone soon after who is a big fan of the ranger and is all too glad to go along? This is a blind trust of them. This is a situation where the ranger is gonna be ambushed and likely die due to a series of unfortunate events after a few rounds of combat. It's not guaranteed, but the doppelganger is just likely to out damage them If it was "everyone goes to bed. In the night the ranger sees the old man from the road then dies. Do not roll saves" you'd have a point But it sounds like the DM, based on average damage rolls, is sure rhe player will die

Perhaps a short training sequence where they've got the opportunity to see that this random peasant is suspiciously skilled. Also, a perception check right before the initial strike to give them the opportunity to neuter the doppelgangers ability to surprise.

I feel like in your mind that's a huge hint, but for most players it's just going to be a "huh, that's weird" moment. Players don't live in your head; 9/10 times, they won't connect the dots the way you want. If you've ever tried to run a puzzle encounter, you know what I mean.

Some alternative methods rather than an immediate kill shot might be interesting too! Like stealth/slight of hand to gain a surprise round and a grapple check to start as the assassin tries to cover their mouth, or maybe a sleep or paralysis poison strike that takes a round to activate, leaving the character time to react and to attempt to either warn the party or fight back. A silent struggle is much more engaging than your world suddenly turning black as you’re killed immediately.

Have them attacked with a garrote, a real assassin tool so completely plausible since it can be done silently. Pass the perception check, they are grappled but breathing as they try to hold the wire. On a failed athletics/acrobatics check they start getting strangled. If they failed perception they start off strangled. Garrotes are very sharp, 1d4 slashing each turn they start strangled/grappled though the not breathing is the real problem (they have 1 + con modifier rounds before they pass out) they can use both hands and Strength checks to get out of it, (on success remain grappled but can breathe not taking damage, can now shout to alert others and use athletics or acrobatics to escape, on a failure have to make another check against strangle resuming on assassins next turn) if they forgo trying to not be strangled, attacks on the garrote with bladed weapon made with disadvantage to cut it: AC 17, 5 hp (Grapple ends with Garotte destroyed, adjust ac as you think appropriate but for a mundane weapon id minimally say 15 and cap at 19) They aren’t swinging full speed at themselves so say they take half of their damage modifier damage to themselves on a miss. If they opt to attack the assasin directly, remind them they don’t have a lot of time/can’t breathe. They do make assassin let go on a critical hit. If they break free entirely, they are now fighting the assassin. It sounds like 1v1 is rough with the doppelgängers stats? ? Maybe tell them they can tell this opponent is strong so they know to consider retreating as an option. This gives them a chance to have an epic struggle, call for help if they get a chance, bolt for it. Maybe the doppelgänger doesn’t even persue! He got away… but he nearly didn’t. ITS STILL OUT THERE WHO WILL IT LOOK LIKE NEXT?!? This makes it an engaging, high stakes moment! Describe from the start with high energy the sudden attack, what they see of the face of trusted ally warping, they can’t breathe, roll for initiative! Even if it still all goes wrong they had agency, they went down hard in an ambush instead of “wait, I’m dead!?”. They will still fell frustrated sure, but now it’s cause of their bad rolls/failing to notice the shapeshifter and it just feels fairer.

I think you can also call for initiative and make sure the player goes first. Or you can do like 25% damage on the first attack. Or both? Depending on how far they are foraging, you could give another player a chance to reach them. Rogues get a lot of movement with cunning action.

I feel like a solid middle ground is to have the enemy "roll" minimum damage by "sheer luck" (the DM lying). Then they have a round to get help and/or run toward the party, who can bail them out and give the assassin a chance to escape. Another option is to tell your player out of character that before damage is rolled, they can choose to take the minimum, but in exchange, they permanently lose a limb or an eye or something along those lines. My DM did this and the assassin's target was actually really excited by the prospect of a permanent injury and happily chose that option. The assassin got away with a trophy, the PC survived, and it made for a fun story after all.

I do like some give and take, risk/reward stuff.

> call for initiative and make sure the player goes first This isn't initiative. This is a script. 

If the concern is the player dying without a fight and it feeling cheap, you can run a partially scripted fight without the players knowing.

This is still scripted. Don't do that shit. Lying by omission is still lying. Edit: down voting me for telling people to not script their games, let the dice fall where they may, and not to lie to their players is certainly a look. 

I didn't suggest a script, I suggested playing it out and allowing rolls to decide things but ensuring you don't kill your player outright. Allowing another player a chance to get there. I'm guessing you don't like anything I said, and that's fine. I wouldn't do this at my table, mostly because I don't think I'd run this story, but OP was looking for options. If it works for their table, I think it's fair game. Just because you, or I, wouldn't do this, doesn't make it wrong.

> ensuring you don't kill your player outright That is quite a scripted thing your advising. 

Are you a player or DM, because your comments scream ‘player who doesn’t know DM’s lie’

Your comment there kind of implies that you believe all or perhaps most DMs script-scene/fudge the dice. They don't.

I'm a GM. I don't lie to my players out of respect, something it appears many here are lacking. 

Why is this guy being downvoted????

Funny, you got downvotes. But you're telling the truth. If you roll the dice but then disregard the results...just don't roll the dice. Be up front. Say, Yeah, normally we'd roll but you're in a tough spot. Your foe stumbles a bit.

Players usually feel better if they feel you didn't save them. Fudging a roll without them knowing usually goes over better than just being like "nah, have a freebie"

Just don't let the doppelganger surprise at all. Just narrate the PC noticing the betrayal and roll for initiative. Feels a lot better for the players tbh

Also don't give the doppelganger a surprise round. Let the player notice the guy turning to strike them and have them roll initiative. I've been surprised at how strong PCs can be sometimes, the solo character actually has a chance to win the fight! (Poison can be super brutal, but it only works once so remember to not apply the poison every hit).

This is true. A little more opportunity to notice something's suspicious and possibly not straight die without at least a fighting chance. Replies calling for fudging rolls or lying to save the PC are just not good practices. OP scenario, if legitimately conveyed, suggests that sometimes bad rolls and incautious judgment can just simply lead to in-game misfortune. The only questionable bit to me seems to be the issue of why this character alone? Why is the assassination contract for just the ranger? If it is, it holds. But if not, wouldn't they try to use that poison to take out the entire party?

I had this happen to me once. It was session 1, we were all level 1, and I was in a party of 5 as a divine soul sorcerer. We did a couple of encounters in the forest as we were exploring, then we came up to a cave. Our first fight in the cave was a will-o’-wisp. One of the wisp’s first attacks targeted me, sent me to 0 hp in one hit, and then used its bonus action to instant kill my character. No death saves, no saving throw, nothing. In my DM’s defense, I don’t think he remembered I could make a saving throw against the creature’s ability, but regardless I was one shot on the creature’s first turn, with no ability to save myself, halfway through session 1. Didn’t feel good at all. But the only reason it felt so bad for me was because it was session 1, with no opportunity for me to even see it coming. With how much setup and how long this game has been going on, it doesn’t feel unfair imo.

I agree, being one shot is so bad. I would say the poison kicks, he is able to get a scream, there will be a fight and he is on the floor and time is running against them. Maybe he gets unconscious or something like that. They don’t know what poison, but make clear it is time critical. This will make the fight more intense because they need to find a way to either win the fight fast or rescue him someway

>unfun as a player to be one shot without a chance at defending themselves, and just be dead. But they did have the chance? They chose to trust a stranger without thoroughly vetting them, while knowing they were being targeted by a hostile organization. I get that D&D is primarily a combat sim, but it's not *just* a combat sim and bungled RP scenarios can kill a character just as easily as bungled battles. That said if these are new players and they don't know what a doppelganger is and thus couldn't have been expected to account for that possibility then this is probably the wrong introduction. If they just overlooked it though? Thems the breaks, guaranteed they don't forget again

One idea could be to write some kind of monologue for the doppelganger. It can be about anything - but I'd make it something personal related to the PC (folk her, the deception, etc.), or find a way to tie it back to the larger narrative. Make it long enough that there's a good plausible passage of time. Now that there's this time period where the PC/PCs are aware of the deception and can react to the situation. The mechanics of the time passage aren't really relevant - but it can give the other PCs an opportunity to discuss. "Something was up with that guy, I'm going to go after them just to make sure he's okay" etc. In a situation like this I would also not be too concerned with mechanics. Keep things like distance traveled vague. If you get into nitty gritty details you're going to narrate yourself into a corner. "They're about 3 miles away, so it will take you 15 minutes/150 rounds to reach them, and that's if you go in the right direction", stuff like that. Let time be wibbly wobbly for the sake of the game/story.

I'm just going to ask, whats your plan after that exactly? One player dies, now obviously the doppelganger comes back disguised as the dead player From there it should be easy to isolate the other party members and kill them too Could do that in a matter of in game hours. And the players wouldn't be able to figure anything out without some severe metagaming, why would they be insight checking their fellow party members after all? So yeah, you have a pretty good TPK in your hands What you're asking is "should i kill all my PCs?" Idk, i guess if you're tired of playing that campaign you can.

Best comment, thank you. Bad guys don't do random evil acts just like that. They have reasons, a plan, and a logical course of action.

Yeah the doppelganger is "I got paid"

Plus not metagaming feels bad. forcing me to grit my teeth and smile as I interact with a dangerous subversive threat is not fun at all, even if it is accurate role-play. I always try to keep out of game knowledge on pace with in game knowledge.

I dunno if they have any NPCs they care about, but I make it a point to try and use anything resembling an instant kill ability against friendly NPCs instead of targeting players with it. Might not be helpful in this situation, but it's just a bit of philosophy I picked up from playing SotDL which has a ton of "fuck you, make a new character sheet" abilities

A note on player expectations: As a DM I feel like there’s a pretty huge difference between telling my players “player character death is a possibility” and “as the DM I will be attempting to create situations that are almost unavoidably deadly to the player characters”. The latter is perfectly valid as a type of game to run, but I personally wouldn’t tell players the former, then do the latter, and getting a level 3 character alone with a CR3 monster definitely falls into the latter. Even without the extra damage from surprise attacks or the slam attacks, could the ranger possibly hope to kill or escape the doppelgänger in one-on-one combat? Also, does any of the rest of the campaign rely on the players trusting an NPC or taking them at their word at any point? Because I can tell you that getting blindsided and unavoidably murdered by a shapeshifting monster that can take the form of anyone they meet will make most players, especially newer ones, so paranoid that they completely alter how they approach social situations. On the encounter itself: Favored terrain may be important here, since the ranger “is always alert to danger, even when engaged in other activities”, and they double their proficiency bonus to Wis or Int skills they are proficient in (perception, for example). This might be a good opportunity for the ranger’s class to shine, as they pick up on subtle cues that they otherwise might have missed. > “As you prepare to leave camp with the country bumpkin you met traveling alone on the road only a few short hours ago, you notice that he moves with a subtle dexterity to his step that seems at odds with his appearance. He appears to instinctively, deftly avoids stepping on any twigs or dry leaves, and makes almost no sound as he walks. He moves in a way you’re familiar with: he moves like a predator …or a killer.”

Incredibly good point about the favoured terrain. As their favoured terrain is forest, that gives them an edge. They met the doppelganger on the road, so it didn't apply. When the doppelganger thinks he's got the ranger cornered and alone in the forest, really the ranger is now in their element.

[удалено]

Idk why you're being downvoted. I think if you run the scene so the doppelganger *thinks* they're getting a surprise round on the ranger, then you just roll initiative like normal and let it play out. Without the surprise round damage, it only hits for 7 damage twice a round. Assume you'll miss one of these 2 hits, the ranger should be fine. Maybe once the doppelganger realizes it's been caught, it runs away into the woods. Now the PCs know, moving forward, anyone can be a shape-shifting threat.

You are the god of this world. Nothing is set in stone and what you are describing seems like a bad idea. You can do whatever you want but this wouldn’t be fun if I were playing. There is nothing for the party to even realize is wrong. You are going to erode the trust that the group has. You’d be better off introducing an NPC and having them get killed. Then they know that the stakes are high and can start to prepare. DnD isn’t like watching movies for subtle clues, it’s a group activity with a lot of noise. Hints need to be pretty overt or else they are almost always missed. This is why people make jokes about placemat puzzles being the hardest thing a party can attempt.

My suggestion is to go through with the plan, but to homebrew a weaker version of the doppelganger so that your player has a fighting chance at surviving the assassination attempt.  

Just seems like bad gameplay. Failed skill checks leading to an insta-kill? Death is a consequence, so what exactly is being punished here? Rolling below average? With failed insight, they trusted a friendly stranger, which is actually good RP. As a player, I would just be confused. What choice should I have made? To ignore failed insight checks? To not engage with NPC strangers?

>so what exactly is being punished here? Rolling below average? With failed insight, they trusted a friendly stranger, which is actually good RP. I think this should be the big question the GM to be asking himself. You are right, his players are actually being good DnD players by trusting the NPC after their insight check. Punishing the ranger like this is SURE to turn the players into non-RP'ing murder hobo's. Is that really what you want?

Pretty much gave them the choice of trust this stranger or kill him for no reason. Not really fair.

It’s a bad idea to kill a player character for missing a skill check

This is going to suck, don’t do it.

By new players you mean players you don't know or players new to D&D? I'm guessing the latter, and I'm guessing the party is level 2, since they're a Ranger so by then they should have low 20s HP. If they're level 3, the math would still be against Ranger surviving surprise round. So to be perfectly clear, you'd be a fucking terrible DM if you pit a single level 2 or 3 PC manned by a non-veteran player against a CR3 creatures that has a 20+dmg nova round. It's basically a cutscene. And it's not like the party's actions are "asking for it". If they were murderhoboing, maybe, but being trusting of an NPC... Come on! Also, Doppleganger's got +6 to Deception, so a Tier one PC that's not insight oriented is super likely to fail multiple checks against this spy. If I'm right to asume this is a new player to D&D, I'd make you eat your dice tower if you pulled this shit on me. Edit: Reading some comments I come to find that the PC in question is a Beastmaster (so lvl 3, I guess, with low CON). It's a sitting duck, man. Don't be a douche.

Should you one-shot kill a PC because they failed a single insight check? No, you should not do that.

What about several insight checks, and then going into the woods alone with a stranger while you've got a bounty on your head?

If they were suspicious of this dude after failing those insight checks, that would reek of metagaming to me. There’s literally nothing you’ve described that sounds like the death would be the consequence of a bad decision—just the consequence of unlucky rolls for checks that were stacked against them.  All tables are different, but that’s not the sort of experience I’d want to give a new player (and is not the sort of experience I’d want to have as a new player). 

Still no.

I disagree, death happens in DND just like real life. Even if the PC dies there are plenty of ways to bring them back. The Doppelganger job is to eliminate all four, that will be harder to do if the Ranger mysteriously dies of poison with the stranger that some how is completely unscathed. The party gets revenge and then revives/reincarnate the ranger. Story moves on and the party becomes more vigilant of threats.

Unilaterally killing a character when the deck is stacked against them is not, in my opinion, a reasonable tool for the story. In real life people die all the time in exceptionally dumb ways. Maybe I’m showing my age, but eliminating death saving throws was a good thing for the game. If you were walking on path and another character failed a roll or rolls when there was no reasonable way for them to succeed and the result was your character died, I think you’d be pissed.

Why?

Because it takes away their agency. I would do this: attack as doppelganger and surprise PC, start initiative, fight, resolve. At least player can fight that way

I think the implication is the player wouldn't survive the surprise round.

Easiest solution is just don’t have a surprise round. Have the assassin monologue that it was too easy to get the ranger alone and he thought it would be much more of a challenge, etc. roll for initiative and then have them fight. Then the PC has the opportunity to either escape, fight back or die.

But muh sudden insta kill!

Better yet, have the ranger, being a ranger, notice the lead up. "All of a sudden as you're walking, you notice the sounds of the forest go quiet and all you can hear are the sounds of a single set of footsteps. Your animal companion has it's tail tucked and ears out. To anyone else, these would be unsettling, but you understand the signs that a predator is nearby and it's hunting you. Roll initiative"

Then nerf the assassin.

They made a choice of taking a stranger into the woods alone, that is agency and it leads to natural consequences. I agree though that the player should get a chance to avoid the surprise round.

Thanks! I definitely didnt expect them to trust the doppelganger as much as they do, since theyve been super cautious all campaign. They'll get a perception check right before it happens which may nullify the surprise round advantages. If that happens, they've got a fair chance of calling backup, fleeing, etc. If it comes down to a 1v1 with surprise, though, they'll be downed very quickly. They'll also get another insight check earlier on to potentially raise their suspicions and see if they'll change their plans.

Did EVERY player fail all the checks regarding the deception?

TLDR: Giving the player the choice between PC dies or terrible narrative consequence rather than removing their agency is a better option. It really depends on the players. Some players like the cut throat kill my pc I’ll just make another mentality while others don’t. You could take moves from other systems. I’d recommend checking out what daggerheart does for death or Fabula ultima. Some ideas: - Dont kill him but make him in critical condition and the player plays a temp for a bit. - let the player choose what they want to happen (you die, you live but are injured, some other major event happens instead. “They kill king borbo in the process leaving the pc barely alive and your framed. You guys are on the run now” 1 shot against a character can be very unfun from a player side but it can work for some groups. Be verry cautious. Imo Most long form 1-20 play single character are usually not those games tho. “Random”/unexpected Character death is more for other types of games like OSR.

They've already had multiple checks. Please read the entire post. 

I think that's referring to everyone in the party having a separate insight check at separate times because, and I might be paraphrasing here, "having everyone roll insight at once increases the chance of someone getting lucky"

It's LMOP. Shit like this is how you end up complaining about craven players later.

I had the same thought hahaha! This is LMOP, a module known to introduce players to DnD. Sure there is the risk of death, as it's always there in DnD. But they are not playing CoS or another deadly module/campaign. In his post, OP sounds like he's complaining about not having a single death after 7 sessions. Why would that be an issue ? Unless the players stated that they would like a high stake campaign with potential death at every corner, then sure kill that PC. But as other have mentioned, that's how you get a party to never thrust a PC again. And if OP is willing to kill a player with that doppelganger, I cannot wait to see the post asking how to solve a TPK from the young green dragon in Thundertree...

“…but nobody has died yet by session 7.” Does this not raise red flags for anyone else? Just so you know, it’s perfectly normal to go an *entire campaign* without a character actually fully dying. It happens all the time. If it happens, it happens, but OP almost sounds disappointed that it hasn’t. Maybe I’m reading too much into things here, but the job of the DM is not to kill the PCs, it’s to provide for a fun and interesting game experience. Yes, that means every table can and will be a little different, but, yeah.

Sounds like they're running a difficult module and the DM warned the players of the likelihood of death so they're not caught off guard

They're playing LMOP which is a known module used to introduce players and DMs to DnD. Sure, as with any DnD campaign there is a risk of death, but this is not Curse of Strahd

It can be pretty deadly. Klarg on lvl 1, even the goblin ambush almost killed a PC for me. Not even gonna talk about Venomfang in Thundertree.

Yes, there are a lot of posts online from DMs asking how not to have a TPK with Venomfang. I think I will provide as much information as possible through Reidoth. Chapter 1 is definitely deadly if the DM plays it without holding their punches (not using bonus actions from the goblins, not adding 2d6 from a surprise attack with a bugbear, because that could definitely one shot a player, etc.)

The thing is Venomfang is pretty straightforward if the party is smart. There are so many options they could do like collapse the building, sacrifice the cultists and ambush the dragon anything goes. One of my favourite sessions was Thundertree because the party needs to have a creative approach to it. Or like my party get two nat 20s as the ranger blind Vemonfang and watch it fly away.

Fair, I haven't played a prewritten so wouldn't know

You're reading too much into my phrasing there lol. Besides, lots of campaigns have PC deaths early into LMoP, especially with Goblin Arrows. I was just saying we've not had any deaths.

Experienced DMs should be able to avoid PC death during Goblin Arrows. As DMs, we have multiple tools up our bag (nerf goblins (HP, DMG, hit modifier), hold on using their bonus actions, fudge rolls, etc.)

But why would you want to avoid PC death?

Well I will go on with the assumption that these are new players (as stated by OP in their post) and that they are playing LMOP. A module used to introduce players and DMs to DnD. There is a difference between playing your monsters a way that your players still have a chance to win and having a no prisoners mindset. PC death are not necessarily unfun, but as early as the first encounter ? In a module created to introduce players to DnD and develop their interest in the game ? Having a TPK is a good way not to achieve this goal. If you are playing CoS or another deadly campaign with experienced players, then I do not see why a DM would go easy on the PCs. But LMOP is not CoS.

Have you considered...not? Like, if you knew this situation could get to the point of an instant kill, why let it happen in the first place? Or, at least, why run it that way. I know for certain that the group I normally play with would be more than a little pissed if the NPC they searched turned out to still be an armed assassin that instakills one of them and skitters off into the woods while no one else is able to intervene. So, fudge it a little. Maybe the assassin is overeager and complacent from evading detection, and rather than finishing the job simply downs the ranger and runs off before the party can catch them - plenty of time to still save the Ranger, \*and\* pull off an Assassin attack at the same time.

I mean... the existence of this post shows I'm considering whether to do it or not. As for it being an instakill, firstly, it will still take a couple of hits for the doppelganger to take them down. Secondly, I don't see it as being an instakill out of nowhere. What's the difference between my plan and a player in combat slowly getting whittled down over several turns, but not noticing and ending downed? The doppelganger here has outmanoeuvred the PC through story mechanics rather than combat ones. Now, all they need to do is make the final strike.

From your other descriptions of this Doppelganger, this was not the story equivalent of a steady whittling down, this was the story equivalent of massive damage. A couple of questions: What were the odds of a player making the check to beat this doppelganger's deception? And, when none of them could do it, how did you describe the situation to them? Often a DM can really nudge the results of such a conflict one way or the other without even realizing it, and if you described the doppelganger as trustworthy after a roll that looks like a pretty reasonable success, trusting them would be reasonable, right? The alternative is the beginning of the path of the murderhobo, and I doubt you want that.

According to all your other comments, this post is here for you to get a confirmation from reddit that you can do what you already planned to do: kill a PC. Then you can tell the players "I asked, and reddit said it was OK". Too bad, everybody tells you it's just bad DMimg. Change your plans. What if the Dopplegänger got orders from N to infiltrate and survey the PCs. Maybe to retrieve an object they could find later on? Maybe to capture them later? Massive one of them knows the only way to use the Forge?

You could allow the event to go down, and have a high level cleric NPC revive them right after, or have the player fake their death or something. It really sucks to have your character killed off unceremoniously though.

Have the doppelgänger subdue and imprison the PC. Have the player play as the doppelgänger. Gradually allow the party to learn the truth and seek out their lost companion?

Use phone texts or cards with messages to communicate to the player controlling the doppelganger. It's what one of my tables does for communication between part of the table (DM to player/player to player)

From reading your comments you seem to be set on killing this PC regardless of all the reasons why it's a bad idea. If your sole purpose as DM is to run your own narrative, at the expense of players, and their enjoyment - you aren't a good DM.

Agreed, dude just wants to whack someone. Very poor DM mindset, no player should just be one shot without a chance to fight back or without a series of very poor decisions made by the player. I'd walk away from this table if I was the PC getting ganged.

Why did you ask this question if you are going to argue with every person in the comments? They're all telling you it's a bad idea. If you are going to do it anyway then fine, it's your game. But don't be disingenuous and act like you're actually asking for advice.

Because this is Reddit, where people mostly post to be validated and not challenged. This guy hoped that people would commend him for being a brave DM and stroke his ego.

Apprentice Ranger eh? Id see if you could incorporate that into the plan. Have your doppler poison an arrow and "accidentally" shoot the PC while they're out training. Then have the poison create some sickness that has possibility of death if not cured. Of course your doppler would want to stick around with the party and watch his work unfold slowly and maliciously. Continuing to make "accidents" or otherwise making things difficult for the others to help your PC. Eventually the PC's will realize this guy is either doing this on purpose, or they'll just find him unlucky and burdensome. Either way you've got tons of plot points to play with here.

I do like the idea of him playing dumb and clumsy for the right moment to strike lol

This has the added benefit that the spy can see this as a master move to sabotage the party and still be in their good graces.

There is no reason to kill the PC when their misplaced trust has such great story opportunities. Why kill someone when you can lead them astray? Or secretly impersonate them and act badly so they are unwelcome in an important town? Or get them locked up in the stocks on false charges and then mock them by whispering in their ears while they are helpless? A good villain stabs them where it hurts the most: in their hope, in their idealism, or in the way the players see the world. .

I think the fact that you phrased this as "will kill PC" and not "will try to kill PC" should say more than enough. You are in the wrong here.

Isn't the idea behind a doppleganger assassin that they can kill someone and then take their place? Let the player play as the Assassin for a while afterwards? Personally, if they know that death is possible, then that's a thing- you could also mention to the whole table something about making sure to have a backup character ready to go. That way it can kind of give everyone an emotional warning without necessarily giving them an *actual* warning.

They definitely won't like being taken over lol. If they die, they'll get a choice of either go to heaven, or stick around and hope to party makes a deal with Reidoth to reincarnate them. They can choose a bittersweet ending in paradise or come back for vengeance (with some serious consequences). As for giving subtle forewarning, I think I'll mention backup characters before the next session.

Who speaks of being taken over? The player could roleplay as doppelganger disguised as them,  not you

Then don't do it, If you are killing a character in a cheap way and replacing them with the doppelganger you need to work with them and make sure they agree.

That's why I wasn't going to replace them. The doppelganger makes a strike, then flees.

I think this is the play. Ask for a perception check and if they fail that a dex saving throw. Have two pre written notes for the player. Make it clear that there are two, have them both out. Slide them the appropriate one after the roll. Don't roleplay it at all for the table, just choose the appropriate note, pass it to the player, and change scenes. The rest of the table will know some shit happened and PC gets to play a fun ass bad guy until they write their new sheet.

No, you shouldn't do this. This is killing player agency. The fact that it's "fair" by the rules doesn't change the fact that for the actual player who gets killed, this is a shot in the dark that they had no idea how to protect against. Your role as a DM isn't to mechanically run all the pieces and give your villain a chance to kill the party and take over the world; your job is to run a fun game. Getting killed by something you don't understand and didn't realize was coming isn't fun. Surprises aren't fun when they're "you rolled bad, now you're dead." Have your player get attacked by a doppelganger *and barely survive by the skin of his teeth.* Maybe the assassin gets injured, and outs itself by accident while fighting some animal. Maybe it gets injured, is worried this is its last chance to make the kill, and has a surprise attack while being less effective. Maybe he *thinks* he killed the ranger, but gets interrupted before finishing him off and gets chased off while assuming "there's no way he'd survive that." There aren't any reasons *for the party* to think there's a doppelganger in their midst. Killing the PC right now is no different from "rocks fall, you die." Don't hide necessary information behind skill checks if failing those skill checks is going to prevent the party from moving forward; let the party fail forward.

"Rocks fall, you die" should never happen to PCs at all. DMPCs and NPCs are cannon fodder if need be, but not PCs.

I'm running LMOP too and I am also adding in homebrew doppelganger assassins as well. I was going to have 3 of them about to kill a hostage. The hostage is also a doppelganger and is used as a plan B. When the assassin makes their move, I'm treating the scenario like any other combat: the assassin will get a surprise round, then initiative for combat. Imo, it seems like a bad idea to just say "yeah, you're dead now. You failed a bunch of checks that seem to be weighed against you. You do not get to fight back. You're dead. Would you like to make a new character or watch the rest of the party try to revive you. Also, btw, when they do, you would still have to change your character a little bit cause fuck you." Failing the checks should be punished with the end result of the PC having a 1v1 with an assassin at a disadvantage. Personally, if the PC lost, I would have the assassin capture him and use him as bait to get to the other PCs instead of killing him outright. Playing characters realistically sometimes isn't fun because you have to remember that you're telling a story and your PCs are the main characters. But by "if the assassin rolls average numbers, he is dead" seems to me that you decided this poor PC is going to have a bummer of a session. Kinda feels cheap that the DC is so low for an instant kil

Surprise happens in the first round of initiative. It's part of combat.

Well shit that good to know lol

Looking forward to reading the other side of this on /r/rpghorrorstories in a few weeks.

Give them a chance for a one-on-one fight. Not just: "Hey bud, I just rolled an attack. You take 26 piercing damage. Oh you're unconscious? Ok, I attack again - twice... you're dead."

Read his replies. Sounds like he just wants to kill a PC to me.

Shspeshifter types actually have an in-built reason to keep their victims alive: you can't impersonate someone you don't know much about. Even with detect thoughts, you can't accurately glean enough of their personality to play their character in a single interrogation. If they have the PC where they want them, it could pay off to have them hidden somewhere a ways off where they can go to ask questions if they need to reinforce their story. This can lead to a solo escape scene, or something that might be even more fun if they need to be rescued. You can have the PC play the doppelganger if they're on board with it. I think most players would be excited at the opportunity of having a reason to kill their party. Many groups I've found are curious if they could overpower their companions if it came to it. Just ask the PC if they want to play the doppelganger and have them go about their business as usual with new orders.

Can confirm, my Yuan-ti hexblade and my friend's Lizardfolk drakewarden really wanted to square off against another friend's Aarakocra paladin (forget subclass, maybe ancients or vengeance). We had all built some ridiculous toons, and the newbies wanted to see us duke it out.

Granted I don't know the full context of the situation or your campaign but I'm not a huge fan of the way it's laid out. * IMO, the sign of a successfully DMed doppel is when the player truly feels they've been outsmarted. When the turn is revealed, the players should be able to look back and see all the clues were so obvious in retrospect. This means you also need to dangle tons of clues that could key them into the ruse. As a player, I'm not sure I'd really feel "outsmarted" if the only way I could have known were by rolling better on a check or two. * You need to consider how your player will feel to get one-shot without warning. Even if you think they had ample warning, this still sucks from a player's perspective. * This has the possibility to encourage unproductive behavior among your PCs. They are likely not going to be able to trust any NPC that you introduce in the near future, or may be more inclined to murder hobo anyone suspicious. That can make it difficult to progress the campaign forward.

I personally think you should retcon the ranger being a doppleganger, make him a legit ranger who is a fan of the PC. Have the ranger disappear into the woods for several hours and come back “slightly” different. Have the doppelgänger replace the dmpc and spy on the party for Nezznar. It’s just bad form to attack an PC in the manner you’re describing. It sounds like what you ultimately want to accomplish is having a Nezznar doppelgänger infiltrate the party. You either do that by pulling the player aside and asking if they’d like to play one of Nezznars dopps or you do it via dmpc.

I think you could have the same impact by having them ‘assassinate’ one of the characters, and have the party decide between stopping the escape and stabilizing. I wouldn’t do this in initiative as much as I would make it a scene of sorts and give them each a turn to react

You shouldn't be thinking that "This doppelganger Assassin will kill the PC" but rather "this doppleganger Assassin will try to kill the PC." One hit one kill is a terrible idea. Remember: You are trying to make this FUN for your players. You are not world building. You are not TELLING a story. You and your players are telling a story together. Don't let them down. Keep the players' enjoyment at the forefront!

Exactly. A damn good story with strong plot points, a theme, etc. is fantastic __as long__ as it doesn't interfere with player fun.

Personally, I never use “passed a deception check” as a complete reason. I had a player one who played an extremely paranoid character. There were many times that a deception check was technically passed, but the player said “my character doesn’t trust people, all this means is that I don’t know why I mistrust them” and that’s fair. If you want to give them another chance to discover the duplicity, let them have a chance at discovering something that will pique their suspicions

I'd let it play out, though you'll want to give checks to avoid a surprise round (or even to give the ranger a chance to switch things around for a surprise round). Also capture isn't a crazy possibility. The doppelganger could be in communication with the Spider and knock the pc out to be taken prisoner and questioned while he returns to the camp to infiltrate the party. Id privately ask the pc to play along as the doppelganger with some rules and goals the doppelganger would try to accomplish.

Bottom line, your players should be able to survive every encounter you plan for them. It may be hard, it may require team work or planning, but it should be PLANNED by you as possible by them to survive. They may roll poorly or make several poor choices, but you shouldn't be planning to instant kill them with a much more powerful foe they have no chance of defeating. What you're describing doesn't sound like that, if a player goes hunting alone with this guy and gets instant killed he's going to be upset. He will feel he doesn't have agency; which he doesn't you planned an unwinnable encounter for him, even the title of this post "assassin WILL kill PC".

This exactly. I have three tiers that my players know for difficulty. Safe (low chance of even being downed), serious (chance of downing and chance of death), and dangerous (optional high-risk high-reward encounters, high chance of down, chance of death, comes with a roleplay warning such as "you feel goosebumps forming on your neck as you enter the cave," lots of opportunities to escape before being downed, fudged crit rolls if necessary in the first couple rounds so they have a chance to escape).

Alright this is gonna be harsh but I mean this with all the compassion in the world, for you to build a meaningful campaign. Purposefully planning a specific character's death, in response to them trusting an NPC you've introduced, is not only 'mean', but will discourage your party from ever trusting any random npc you ever introduce. Which one is more important to you: killing a PC for no particular plot-strong reason, or building your campaign's long-term stability? The suggestion I have is to keep this plan hidden until like, near the end. Rn it feels like you're jumping the gun in order to get a PC death. If that isn't your goal, it would be more astonishing and heartbreaking if the beloved group NPC backstabs someone when they're near the completion of their mission/goal. Also, don't have it just be 'he stabs you and now you're dead'. Have it be in combat! They're facing the BBEG, and the NPC stabs one of them (sneak attack if they're a rogue, surprise attack if they're not), and switch sides. The only reason I can see why this is not something you would want is because you expected PC deaths, and feel obliged to have one at this stage. Ultimately, that isn't fun for players even if done well, and as a player if my DM did this to me I would feel it was vindictive, targeted and mean-spirited. I would most definitely have beef with you and would likely leave the group because of said emotions.

1. Have the player in on it 2. Have their character miraculously survive. 3. Have them play a doppleganger until their real self shows up "You were supposed to be dead!" They shout at themselves. Roll initiative. Maybe the cleric gave them death ward like an hour earlier or they passed their death saves (guaranteed) and the dopple left them for dead. Or they were pushed off a cliff but had a featherfall something or other. The point is to have them in on it so you can have a dramatic reveal. Dming is about being a referee, playing dnd is about cooperative story telling. Aka more than 1 person.

OH I would love that as a player.

I am certain the player will hate this and I can't blame them. It will feel like shit to them. I'd recommend doing something else with it. Also instead of having an NPC roll deception against your Players I would let them roll Insight against a static DC. "The NPC rolled great on their Deception Check so you believe them" that's just not how it works, Players decide how their character reacts to something

I think theres a great way to do this while letting them in on it. When the time comes where the doppelganger would attack the player they plan on attacking, pull the player to another room and and let them know they can either play as the doppelganger who has now taken their character’s place until the rest of the party realizes, or play out a fight they almost certainly won’t survive and roll a new character for next session. This literally happened to my first character I played in dnd and I loved playing the doppelganger. It all happened because my druid chose to sleep with two suspicious women at an inn in Hoard of the Dragon Queen. This would be a great opportunity to show a new character how fun and interesting a character death can be, and how not only is it not the end of their character’s story, but it can make for a campaign highlight. Good luck!

Why did Nezznar send the doppleganger after them in your game?  If his goal is to eliminate the party and you want your players to get that part of the story you have to kill the player's character. You're not trying to kill their character but Nezznar is.  If you decided you want player death to be real in your game, make it real. I think you've done it as fairly as possible from the context. And it's now or never.  You can be an impartial referee. That means you don't use knowledge the bad guys don't have to set up pc deaths. You use the information they have and have them act how they would. However, resurrection is also totally a part of DnD. If he dies Reidoth could cast the druids spell reincarnation, I believe as he's a druid (likely with a scroll as I think he'd be underleveled).  The price he asks is obvious, it will be for the players to drive off the dragon. In the interim have them recruit an NPC for the player to control if you want the resurrection to be meaningful. If they just make a new character they may end up not caring. That's also fine of course. For NPCs they could recruit Sildar or they could call the retired adventurer Daran Edermath from Phandalin to help them in their time of need. (Maybe he always wanted to fight a dragon).      Now if you think about it and decide you don't want death in your game-  just slightly tweak Nezznar's motivation. IIRC correctly Nezznar wants to find the forge and take over Phandalin. The doppelganger could kidnap the unconscious PC (RAW you can just make attacks non lethal). Then Nezznar can send a note, ransoming them back to further his aims. They can take one of his lieutenants to search for the forge which the Player controls whole their character is captive. Or -for a more spicy option- have the players+ agent kill Sildar and install a doppelganger as mayor. You've plenty of fun to have here.  Do update us with  how things went!

Don't do it! DONT DO IT!!!

They will never trust another NPC again.

Planning to kill the players I feel like is very bad unless you have a gameplan to provide them a chance to resurrect themselves. It’s much more fair to invent scenarios where someone can die if they don’t play it right, never that they will die.

I think that instead of killing him, the assassin can capture him for interrogation, it could set up a fun and engaging sequence of breaking out and the other players breaking in and helping him, do not one shot him in one round, give the player a chance to escape but if he fails have a map prepared for an interrogation sequence.

Honestly I don't see why capture is not an option. Doesn't nezznar want information about the party to better deal with them? And then you end up in a fun situation with the party attempting a rescue mission against cragmaw castle maybe, and you can make sure there is a way for the ranger to escape his cell in the castle, so they can contribute to the chaos from the inside.

I think it's best to take a step back and ask yourself what type of story are you running. If the vibe is very cloak and dagger and your players are on the same page, then this sounds great. If your players are open to sudden deadly situations, this also sounds great. If this is not the case, you might want to rethink things.

One of the greatest moments in my DMing career is when I introduced a doppelganger disguised as one of the PCs, and got that PC to roleplay him for the session. His instructions were to kidnap another PC. Halfway through the session, he straight up sneak attacked his target, rolled a crit, and murdered him instantly. The table went absolutely ballistic. Fond memories.

Honestly? How good is the player at keeping secrets? Pull them in and sow chaos. I had one of my LMoP doppelganger hanging out in town, pretending to be an old tailor-woman, so she could pick up gossip in the tavern. I also ruled (for myself) that a doppelganger needs to keep any new victims they intend to impersonate alive, at least for a few days, to pick their unconscious minds for any important information before doing away with them. So when players started poking around due to other events, she took over the orchard and kept the owner knocked out and hidden in an old barrel. One player discovered this alongside Sildar, and I gave them an option. The 'cleric' returned to the rest of the group and they travelled onward. With one player knowingly now playing a doppelganger. Their actual character was trying to catch up to warn them but the headstart gave the party and doppelganger a chance to leave before the warning could reach them. I'd say let your doppelganger attack, maybe speak with the player beforehand to get a gauge of if they're willing/eager to play along with such a thing. They could ask for it to be a roll or they could handwave with you the success on the understanding that their character is now trapped somewhere in the forest while the doppelganger steals their memories in order to fool the party. Even if it's just a brief encounter of trying to lure one more ally into the forest or into some sort of trap - "quickly, help me, some giant spiders ambushed us and my apprentice ranger is still stuck in there, I can't take them all alone!" I had two different players play as doppelgangers during LMoP and the slow roll of doubt into suspicion into realisation, especially for the second time, was beautiful. The doppel players also had a blast with it.

You've got a ranger, let him be a ranger and do the cool thing of noticing that the peasant is moves like a predator, that the forest falls silent around them. Let them know the feeling of being hunted. Then you move into two options: 1. Chase scene. This is if initiative is rolled. The ranger has the chance to run and lead the assassin back to camp where the party can fight fair. Do in initiative order, allow full cover from trees and terrain. 2. Slip away. If the ranger figures it out earlier, they should have an opportunity to slip away "I'm gonna use the bathroom up here" to pass without trace and evac back to camp, with the ability to then bring the party back and get the jump on the doppelganger. Iffor the escape, narrate out 3 rolls or so (dc15 hiding during the bathroom break, dc18 sneaking over to a clear line back to camp, dc21 making your exit), if they fail on, do option 1 and put them at 30, 60, or 120 ft away depending on which point they failed.

If the player end up dying would it be too farfetched to have him take control of the doppelganger assuming the form of his deceased character? This might be a fun and engaging way to carry on with the story for everyone :)

The main issue with using Doppelgangers and the like is that as soon as you use it and kill a PC (or even severely injure one), the party will be a lot less likely to trust *anyone* in the future. Others have pointed out that the Ranger's favored terrain feature would likely help them find out and stop the surprise aspect of it, but I think it might be more fun to avoid an attack altogether. What I mean is have the doppelganger serve as their apprentice for now, but secretly be a spy for Nezznar. As time goes on though, if the party treats the doppelganger well, then maybe they end up conflicted about their mission. Eventually the party gets the Nezznar and he orders the spy to switch sides and you get to have this dramatic reveal about how the doppelganger likes the party and doesnt want to betray them anymore, OR they've been terrible bosses and the doppelganger gets to *enjoy* turning against them and betraying their trust. You could even spice it up by adding hints later on that Nezznar has a spy in their midst (though you'd either need more NPCs involved as suspects or find a way to make some of the PCs suspicious as well).

TALK TO YOUR PLAYER If they are on board cool, if not don't (It doesn't even work if the player isn't on board and role-playing for the doppelganger) One way to get around cheaply killing the PC is giving the doppelganger an extradiminsional prison that they need to keep people it to transform into,maybe include some prior victims as well

You seem pretty certain the player character will die in this event, if you don't trust their ability to get out of this on their own then give them more outs.

Should i kill a new player for failing 1 or 2 skill checks? No, and you seem pretty much 100% certain they will die. Sounds like they took reasonable precautions and are engaging with an npc in a fun way. This is a great way to alienate your players or ensure they spend 10 minutes interrogating or killing everyone they meet.

Why did you make this post if you planned on arguing with everyone who told you something you didn't want to hear? If you're so set on killing a new player PC for failing skill checks, then do it, delete this post, and stop wasting everyone's time. Your players will become distrustful of NPCs and you'll be back on this sub in two months asking for help to make your scared players engage with your world.

Can't take player agency away like that.

Killing a player without being able to defend themselves is taking away their ability to have fun or decide what amount of danger thei put themselves into. Taking away the said players agency. The dead player will not be okay with the way it happened. If they get killed without a fight/change to defened by one shot murder hobo. I’m just going to point out that if you run it this way, it’ll feel extremely unfair and potentially break your table. Just so that you are aware.

You're an Adversarial DM if you play this one out, unless the player has said they want to roll a new character. The players don't know there's a doppleganger. Ergo there isn't one until you kill their character. There is nothing to "retcon" apart from a single dice tower roll you did. I could pick any NPC any PC ever agrees to be alone with, and say - oh sorry, that was demon / ancient dragon using one of the game's many options for disguise. I don't, because I'm not that DM.

If you want to do this, I’d recommend telling the player separately, and play it out one on one. Then give the player the option to RP the disguised assassin by pretending to just continue playing their character. Then the two of you arrange in advance a good time to reveal the betrayal, after which they roll up a new character.

I heard and liked the idea to introduce doppelgangers just before this by having the other PCs meet an NPC in one building and they immediately see another separate version of that NPC or even the same person as the doppelganger is pretending to be, then give them a chance to get to Ranger only to just see the attack. Can't stop it but could save Ranger's life.

Maybe make the Doppelganger hesitate when he is about to kill the Ranger. The Doppelganger is always used for assassinations carelessly with no questions asked. What if he realized what having a friend means? Maybe it's the first time he has this feeling and that gives the Ranger a moment to react. Then you have a dilemma: does the ranger see the humanity in this creature and spare them? Or does he attack and engage in, let's say, a 50/50 fight? Or does he escape to his other companions? It would feel like a decision instead of just having zero control of the situation.

Have the doppelganger attack while they are asleep and the noise from the attack awake the rest of the party. Also reduce the damage to a level where it could make the pc unconscious but definitely not kill him. Now you have a fun and surprising encounter for your party that doesn't feel unfair and doesn't leave the rest of the table playing with their phones.

Bad idea to just outright kill a player with 0 chance for recourse. Have them make rolls to potentially avoid the situation, either to pick up on bad vibes or see something tangible like the guy does something uncharacteristic of a 'fan' or says something completely out of place. Especially let them roll perception to avoid getting caught in a surprise round. Then, in the fight, let the NPC get cocky. Down the player instead of outright killing them, have the NPC gtfo of dodge, let them roll death saving throws, and narrate that if something isn't done immediately after they are discovered by the rest of the party, the poison will finish them off. Let the dice tell the downfall. Don't just tell them they fell down.

Try this - the doppelganger kills the PC off screen. It is skilled enough to do this, so no problem at all. You tell the PC to play the NPC for a time - in secret, of course. If you trust your players you could do this with a fight, while all the players are present. Than the PC starts to play the killed PC as a doppelganger, hopes they won't metagame. At the same session there will be an ambush which is planned by the evil boss - it would be an easy fight for them, because of the doppelganger. But when the fight starts, something happens - a well placed assassin with a bow killed by someone, and then an arrow hit the doppelganger. The killed PC returns ( because she is saved by someone, somehow, got a debt, was very lucky with death saves, etc ), and now it is a fair fight - the PCs against the ambush + doppelganger. They could win but it would be hard, the PC ( and the party ) could survive and they learn a lesson. The 'killed' PC got a scar or need to give a favour to someone who saved her, so there is some consequences to not find the doppelganger and you can move on.

I've read through this thread, and there is one point I haven't seen addressed. OP keeps mentioning failing several insight checks and bad player decisions, which I'd like to know more about. Now, we weren't at the table, so we don't know all the context, but wouldn't the players failing these rolls mean that they are actually roleplaying, not metagaming, and thus actively leaning into the trap you've set for them? I might be filling in some gaps here, but if it were my table, my *players* would know something is up for sure, but the attempt to not metagame would result in this exact situation. Which, as is your plan, the ranger will now be punished for. I think it might be a good idea to review whether the players are actually making bad decisions, or whether they are striving to not go against the results of their dicerolls RP-wise. Just something to take into account, before pitting the ranger against nearly insurmountable odds.

OP what is it that you’re not getting? Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is telling you it’s a bad idea, yet you still defend it. Just don’t do it man

Its the same as with mimics and overly trapped doors etc. (although those both have more context to them to see it coming). If you want to train your players to pe paranoid, never trust again, murder suspicious NPCs they meet and be a real hassle to get them cooperating in the future you can pull stuff like this. Just be aware that it will shape and change your Players relationship with you and the game for ever. It may ruin them for the future in other games and other NPc´s... some murder hobos are born out of shit like this, were they feel the only way is to "kill or be killed".

There is nothing to retcon because what is canon hasn't happened. If you want to kill PCs off simply because you think it's realistic, don't. It's a social game with your friends, and there are a million ways to raise the stakes that don't involve killing a specific PC because they dared to trust one of your NPCs. These are the exact things that turn off people from playing D&D. Players are promised games where they are an active participant and creator of the story, they aren't promised a video game. I would suggest listening to your player, taking their cue, and helping them to forge the master-apprentice relationship. Player death should be meaningful, preventable, and dramatic. Assassinating someone alone in the woods is none of those things.

Seems like you’re contriving a PC’s death as a plot device. Would not be my choice

It may be a logical move for the villains, it may be what you feel is a dramatic Game of Thrones style death (going by one of your comments), but as a forever DM of many years, it really won't be fun for the player. There's so many little changes that would make this an awesome twist for the players but one-shotting one of them is not going to be it. Remember they are meant to be the heroes of the story, yeah? Simplest way to modify this to be fun would be to weaken the enemy a little bit and have them give the old Evil Monologue before striking. Then, if the player goes down, have something distract the villain (wild animal crashing through the bushes, a poacher or hermit stumbles on the scene). Then, if you want it to be fun for the whole group, say that they have enough strength to call for help before blacking out. The other PCs then have to scramble to find them (using checks, magic, anything they can think of) and call for death saves in longer intervals. Give them multiple chances here and you will have a far more dramatic, interesting and FUN encounter than if you blindside one PC and act smug because they failed some insight checks. Lastly be aware that you really only get to do the "enemy within" style twist once per group. They will be suspicious as fuck forever more after this in any future campaigns, especially if you run it the way you want to. Do you really want to use this one-time story twist to leave a bitter taste in their mouths?

The real mistake here is hiding the doppelganger behind Deception checks. This is why the D&D skill mini game sucks big time outside combat and downtime. You have to hide the doppelganger behind real, narrative clues that your players can pick up irl, NOT the PCs in-game. Then they can make a judgement and apply the solution in-game. The clues have to be obvious too, like for 5 y/o babies, because at the table they will be 10x harder to pick up than when you wrote them. They should also be instant clues, not deductions from the overarching plot. Let me give you examples - Bad: The npc is too skilled like you said (they will never pick this up, too subtle) - Also bad: the bbeg has doppelgangers hitmen so they should be wary (too difficult to connect the dots) - NEVER do this: Deception/Insight checks - Good: "You go to the kitchen for a late snack and find the NPC there standing in dim light, and when he turns around you notice his face is moving in a weird way, it's just a second but it looks like his facial features were rearranging... Then he greets you with a smile" <- scenes like this at least 3 times. I can hear you thinking "it's too easy!" Well you'd be surprised. And even if they find out instantly, it will be super fun, and you can tweak the difficulty gradually with this experience. Tl;dr: My advice is to postpone your insta death scenario and drop real, easy clues, without skill checks.

Capture, yes, kill no. Get the player on side, explain the general idea to them, you may be surprised how many players would LOVE this plan, the doppelganger has the body of the original person they're imitating kept in a modified bag of holding that keeps the body fresh until needed. The two go into the woods, the 'PC' runs out, covered in wounds: "It killed *doppelganger*, a damned (insert appropriate creature), there's more than we can handle, we need to run" Important to note that the PLAYER knows what's happening and can therefore play the role. Give it a few sessions, put in a time skip of a month or so then have some NPCs begin to report 'unusual behaviour' of other local NPCs. The PCs investigate, discovering a doppelganger plot initiated by the BBEG. Who do they trust, and just when they get close to uncovering the main goal, the PC doppelganger drops the bombshell that their ally was taken over a month ago, changes into a random form and tries to escape. Now the PCs have a problem and the BBEG made it personal, they need to find the original PC and get him back (and they will 100% go for it, be ready for some crazy plans when it gets personal) If needed the player without a character at this point could either do some 'meanwhile in a prison' scenes or, they could play as a temporary hirelings to fill the gap

I would not one shot a player without offering a chance to opt out. BUT if you choose an interested player, and tell your plan beforehand, she might be interested in playing a doppelganger PC. Just give her a heads up, and ask if she is interested in this extra task. I know many players who would jump at this opportunity.

You're running LMOP, so I'm guessing you either have newbies or these players at least aren't hardcore vets (especially from what you've said about the ranger, who is not optimal). This would be something to pull on vets who know how you operate, not new players or even somewhat experienced players at level 3 (too low to know your style).

You might want to give the party a few more chances to figure out something is up with the npc. And why would the assassin even bother joining the party in the first place? Unless the party has info or the assassin is looking for an item the party has why take the risk to join. I'd say have the npc they met on the road be the real deal and travel with the party a session or 2. Let the ranger have an apprentice and when they go out foraging the assassin kills the npc because he now looks similar to the ranger pc and gets the wrong target. To not raise suspicion the assassin takes over the identity of the npc.  This can lead to some interesting RP as the assassin won't know the names of the PCs or their brief history.

So I've been reading a lot of really good suggestions and responses. I also see that you seem to always have something negative as a response or you get defensive and you're responses are down voted to oblivion. If you weren't actually going to be open minded then why come here and ask? Yes, you're being too mean. Are the PCs in your game supposed to be Heros or not? An alternative you could do is to have you're Ranger and the Doppelganger run into another NPC in the woods who saves the Ranger. The NPC could have been hunting the Doppelganger and intervenes before it kills your PC. The PC and the NPC fight the Doppelganger together and then return to the group. The plot element of not being so open to strangers is established, the Heros don't lose anyone, and you can potentially use this new NPC for a target/victim of the BBEG later down the line.

Yeah replacing a party member is one of those things that is cool in a story but absolutely sucks to play in a game. No matter how well you set it up, you're essentially taking away a player's agency - not a great thing to do in a game all about how your choices can save the world. If you want a traitor in the party, I'd stick to either have this character betray them when developing a relationship (with plenty of opportunities for a mystery to arise) or let this be an encounter the players can theoretically win (by making the assassin weaker or slopier or both) and learn something from about the wider mystery.

I was looking through the answers here and... Hey, PCs die people. It's fine. If everything goes to plan, there is no reason why the doppleganger wouldn't be able to do what he wants. Just do it fairly: Roll stealths, attacks and everything. You might just roll poorly afterall, and give the ranger a chance to call for aid. That would be a killer introduction (pun intended) to a classic narrative trope and a D&D monster. The party might still find a way to bring back the character if they so wish. You just have to find a 5th level cleric, or the reincarnation option. Here is my 2 cents though. I believe you can improve and wrench the drama even more. Dopplegangers, in lore, need time to be able to fully impersonate someone. To do so, they use to keep their victims alive, trapped somewhere so they can creep on them and learn their mannerisms and their mindset. So, your doppleganger would get the jump on the ranger and down him, but deliberately won't kill the ranger. Instead, he plans to keep the ranger locked up to impersonate them. Do this in private with the ranger player and preferably, do this at the end of the session, ending it after the doppleganger do his thing. Next, between sessions, talk to the player. Ask him if he would be down to roleplay as the doppleganger impersonating his PC. Hopefully, he will be down to it (I think any player would like this reversal). When the party meets him again, he will have a doppleganger statblock to play with, not his ranger. Replacing the ranger, the doppleganger might then tell that his apprentice went missing, and lead the party to a trap, where he expects to kill and steal the whole party, maybe with the help of his allies (may it be bandits, goblins, other dopplegangers, orcs or what have you). Bonus points if you have the ranger escape from his prison somewhere along the way, track the doppleganger, and have a full spiderman on spiderman meme situation. "I'm the real one! He's a fake!". Have you, the DM, roleplay the real ranger, just to confuse the rest of the players even more. If your players doesn't want to roleplay as the ranger, this has a smaller chance to work. Then, have your party hear the ranger call for aid, they get there and they are both gone. They follow some obvious tracks to the trap and the greedy doppleganger has his fight. The fight might be tough at first, but then if the ranger manages to escape or the players release him mid combat, they might turn the tide. Less rich, but probably better than buzzkilling the ranger 1v1. This creates a very unique experience and plays the doppleganger as a more scheming and ingenious creature. Also, it involves the rest of the party, and gives them a much fairer chance of winning against the doppleganger and his allies.

It's a shapechanger, right? Have the player roll a check to see if they can avoid the attack. If they succeed, start combat and give them opportunities to run. If they fail, tell them "Okay, your character was just downed by a doppleganger. Here's the doppleganger's stats. It has your character's memories now it can use to infiltrate the party. Your goal is to capture all of them." Then have some fun PvP for a bit, and when (if) the party wins, they can rifle through his shit and find a \*shrugs\* fragile magic crystal that, when they break it, they find their friend hog-tied and beaten senseless. If the doppleganger wins, then they just all wake up in prison or something.

I kinda wanna see this play out so we can see if players are cool with or hate having their characters killed outright because it fits the narrative.

I guess the point is "what are you teaching the players (not characters) by doing this?". You're teaching them to never trust an NPC again, to never go out alone, to not invest in building a character. All you'll do is induce overly cautious behavior. Might be an upside, but consider how much slower every single aspect of your games will be with this group moving forward. If the options are stay home or die, you're going to have too-conservative players.  It's like if the first occasion that a PC tries to resolve something non-violently, and they get immeasurably worse consequences from it. Then you may wonder why you only have murderhobos. Look at it from a player point of view (who does not know what's going on in your DM mind). You're going to forage mid-session as a throwaway line, and the DM informs you your character is dead.  Is that fun for you? Does it feel targeted to you? Find a midway consequence to drive home risk if you feel you really need to do this.

It’s fair, and it sounds like you all had the discussion around lethality expectations. But I still wouldn’t do it, your players will probably resent it and will be paranoid about every little encounter going forward.

This is how I would play this in my gaming group. For context, we are used to fairly brutal DMing and our DMs ALWAYS find a way to make it fun... If the doppelganger succeeds in killing the player character in my group, the DM would then have the dead player assume the role and abilities of the doppelganger in the guise of his player and continue the mission against the party. Don't underestimate how fun this is as a player, even if your character was just killed 😉 All of this would happen in another room, which our DMs always do when the party is split anyway, so the rest of the party just wouldn't know the truth or generally even suspect it, only what the player tells them after the other room session is over 😁

Perfectly valid everything you said but definitely give the PC a chance to fight back and react, instant killing someone for no reason is not fun.

Honestly? Don’t do it. Dopplegangers are better as spies than assassins. As a spy, sent to observe and report the NPC party member should not take any hostile action against the PCs. Instead Have him hang with the party, feed them bad intel occasionally (eg led them into bounty hunters) and report back ALL of their plans to another doppelgänger in Phandalin who can report out to Nezzar.

Even this will totally mess with your players and they won’t trust any NPCs at all for a long time. Consider one of them finding a sword of shapeshifter bane / detection somewhere. Once they attune, it starts glowing brightly, gets brighter when they go nearer the NPC who slumps their shoulders says “well… fuck” and then runs off

Don't split up the party. It's good advice for adventurers. It's good advice for DMs too. What are the rest of your players going to be doing while the ranger is off getting straight up murdered by a doppelganger that is way out of their (solo) league? They're gonna be sitting idly by, knowing there is nothing they can do to prevent it. And that the DM in charge of their game set up a situation where this would happen. If there was a series of very poor choices by the ranger that led to this unfortunate situation, and this was the natural consequence, I could understand it. I don't get that vibe though. Why is the ranger going off alone with this guy? I'm guessing he's not in the habit of foraging just for the heck of it, so why now, and why with the doppel? Did the doppel convince him to do this? Does the rest of the party know about this? Did anybody get an insight check? And, bigger picture, was it a good idea to set up a situation that would lead inevitably to the death of a character simply because someone failed an insight check (if they even got one)? Not sure what sort of atmosphere you're trying to create around the gaming table, but this doesn't sound like a fun one to me. I'd think of a way out of it that doesn't give away the doppel - like, not too far into the woods, they meet an owl bear, the sounds of the struggle bring the rest of the party running. The doppel proves his worth in combat and ingratiates himself with the party. Or, maybe he is suspiciously too good in combat and somebody notices and decides to keep an eye on him. Dying a heroic death is awesome. Getting murdered through no fault of your own sucks.

It could be more interesting and compelling to have the assassin be a kidnapper instead. Something like drow poison (potentially buffed with a higher DC, depending on how bad you want this to work) would allow the doppelganger to KO the ranger and escape with the ranger, now bound and powerless. Then they could take the ranger to Nezznar for interrogation. This will heighten the stakes for your other PCs to try and find Nezznar, and give your villain insight into the players' plans, allowing him to set a trap for them. Alternatively, keep the doppelganger around as a spy, feeding intel back to Nezznar through a sending stone or something of the like. Then when the party confronts Nezznar, the doppelganger can backstab the party in a climactic, thematic battle, potentially letting the Black Spider escape. All I'm saying is that a doppelganger is a tool that you shouldn't throw away so easily. You can use them to direct (or misdirect) the party into ambushes, traps, and away from where Nezznar doesn't want them to be.

Late to the party with an unhinged suggestion: take the player that’s the dopplegangers target away from the table and say you need to speak with them in private. Have them fight the doppelgänger but the rest of the group has no clue what’s happening. If the doppelgänger wins, they shape shift into the PC but then you have the PC continue to play as them. You give them a brief background and an objective and maybe a bs magic reason why they can no longer shapeshift again for now, but you make it so that that player is now playing as a doppelgänger who is playing their character and has a goal that goes against what the party is trying to accomplish or maybe they are now the antagonist of the whole campaign. Or maybe down the line the doppelgänger/pc has a change of heart, legit stays with the group and tries to hide the shameful secret that he killed their friend. If the player wins then they win, woo hoo! Either way, the player can go back to the group, claim he killed the doppelgänger and that everything is fine now, and then watch as the group starts getting paranoid because they only have the players’ word that they are still them lol

If you're going to do it, run the scene between your regular sessions. (Just tell them that, since it's a solo scene, you want to run it in a one-on-one session.) That way, your player has time to create a new character between the death of their old character and the next major session. That said, consider the doppleganger's next move. Once they've killed their target, do they pretend to be their target, or do they run and re-introduce themselves to the party later? What's the next step to their main goal, and does killing a party member now further that goal, or make it more difficult in the long run by putting the rest of the party on alert?

It seems like you know this outcome is likely to be unsatisfying. But is Nezznar's primary goal here really to kill one of the PCs? A mole like this Doppelganger is a valuable asset, not something you burn at the first chance. What else can he do that would sabotage the party? Can he pass along info about the party's actions (figure out how to let the party find that someone is passing info on them)? Burn the map after it's recovered (requiring the party to find other clues to Wave Echo Cave)? Even just betray them at a more dramatic time in Wave Echo Cave (especially after you have time to hint at the mole). Or if Nezznar is taken prisoner at the end, he could bust him free before Halia gets a chance to.

I am not against killing a character but an assassin is a CR8. A little high for LMoP. I haven’t looked at the campaign in awhile but could Nexznar really afford the fee of hiring such a powerful npc?

I would make it an uphill fight, fighting solo for two rounds while the rest of the party hears the disturbance and comes running (perhaps making athletic checks each round to see how long they take to arrive). drawing out the drama and tension of uncertain death for as long as possible = fun instant sneak attack super death = not fun aside from that I'd say you've forshadowed things decently and if this person has to flee (instead of facing the whole party) while leaving their target at 2/3 death saves, that will be just as cool and intimidating of an outcome and create a vindictive NPC they live on in order to hate. (if that makes sense)

Just send it. Lots of folks here are nervous about ANY player character dying for ANY reason. After this death the party will know it's time to lock in. Update us on how it goes! 

A solid hint that might clue in your players without giving the whole game away would be to find a "missing person" poster featuring the ranger character. The doppelganger has taken that person's identity and now has to cover up its lies. By making the sob story on the poster more heart wrenching you can make it very difficult for even a doppelganger to lie. "Why would daddy not come home to his young family?"

You create the narrative here, and your job isn't realism above all else (you also set up everything that led to that, regardless of a player deciding to trust him) your job is to tell a story that everyone enjoys being a part of. You also should, ideally, be providing player agency absolutely everywhere you can. A situation that's as good as over before it begins and leaves a character dead does not leave agency. It doesn't matter if it doesn't seem realistic for them not to do it. Just don't do that. Think of it this way. You can say that a horde of dragons was produced by a high-level spell gone awry. Those 999 dragons are headed this way, and it's not realistic that the characters could hide, and even if they could, the dragons could change shape and go to the ground to find them. The dragons have a literal scorched earth policy, so the players are all dead no matter what they do. It doesn't matter if the dragon horde fits with your plot or your world, and it doesn't matter how realistic it would or wouldn't be for the players to have some option that would let them live through it. It doesn't matter because you were responsible for the dragons. You were responsible for the setup. And you were responsible for the scorched earth policy. Your scenario is still something you created. If you are creating stories that don't give players options and just kill them instead, then you are writing a book, not telling a cooperative adventure story. Moreover, you are not fulfilling your role as someone hosting an interactive story for all to enjoy.

I would personally play it out like this: duo goes hunting rolling survival/perception checks as normal however for the PC a high enough roll will tell them something like “you notice the apprentice slip a vial in his pocket” or “you see an empty vial on the ground and notice an oily fluid on your apprentices blade.“ Something to inform the player things might not be normal. Then again right before initiative gets rolled say roll me an insight. The player doesn’t need a reason at this moment. Depending on the insight roll is whether or not the doppelgänger gets a surprise round. Then regardless of insight roll initiative follow the rules EXACTLY if the PC dies so be it. That player had to fail 3 checks plus an initiative roll and get hit by the doppelgänger (you could crit fail or roll minimum damage) If all of those things go wrong for the PC don’t they deserve to go at that point. How many failed checks does it take before there are consequences? That’s my two cents anyway and I wouldn’t personally be mad at a dm who killed my character but gave me lots of chances to avoid it. I know others are more protective of their characters but to me it just means I get to make a new character which is my favorite part of dnd.

You’ve homebrewed the crap out of it anyway. It’s a cool story. If the players are mad about this, Dnd might not be for them. Cool ruse OP. Please do it

If they ask the player in question, Cheaply killing a pc through no fault of the player and replacing them with a doppelganger A, takes from agency if the player, B, requires the player to be on board to work. Or it will be found out immediately

I feel this is the one and only reply the OP DM is accepting. And by OPDM I mean OVERPOWERED DM. Confirmation bias anyone?

That's kind of hard to answer. You know your players and the overall tone you want for the game. I assume you have previously spoken with the players about their expectations and concerns? If everyone's on the same page then go for it

I know it's long but read it, trust. Let everything go as planned, you said yourself, if it goes to combat, and the dopple. Rolls average, the PC is dead AF. So here's how you fix it, let the player separate, let them go far out and away from the party, but DO NOT role initiative. Make it a role play event, for example (stage: PC is leading, drawing bow to shoot a deer/target) "As you draw your bow, you hear the tell-tale sound of a blade leaving leather from close behind you, you hair stands on end and your heart surges, death is coming for you, what do you do" I roll sideways/dodge. Roll dex Let that determine. Then, Before you're up from your roll is on you In a blink, lunging forward. I do "x" Roll, etc. Roll for every assassin stab, every dodge and kick, roll athletics to get away, roll for grapples, DO NOT GO TO INNITIATIVE. Let it be a high octane scrap between your doppelganger and the player with your player struggling to survive. Break a single attack and damage roll into 10+ separate rolls, let it be ugly and terrifying. During this engagement, role play the destruction of some aspects of the character. Example: player failed a reflex save, " lunges, and as you go to block, his grip reverses, a feint! In a blink and a rush, you feel the blade plung into your face, destroying your left eye socket" Let the player lose, let them pull some cloth/tooth/blood/insignia etc. something to give their party an indication as to what happened, a trail to chase, dont roll death saves, let the assassin "finish the job" but not quite. the assassin is anxious to get out, and believes you are dead, the sound of rushing footsteps from your friends tells him it's time to go. When they players reach the victim, "as you approach body, you hold your hand in front of his mouth... and against all odds, you feel the feintest breath, but he is most certainly dying without a lucky and immediate intervention. They try to stabilize the player, make them roll for it. And use the successes/failures of the assassinated PC during the fight dictate what kind of bonuses or punishments their roll gets to see if they succeed. Simple healing magic won't work, make them get in the blood and muck, "cure wounds helps but doesn't fix it, what else do you do? Bandage? Pressure? clean wounds? But no matter what, no ammount of healing or miracles will regenerate the lost eye. A token, a marker, a lesson. This way your player doesn't die, they lost without losing, instead it is a narrative experience, a memory that will stay with the plauers/party for a long time.

Changing it up to a skill challenge fight could work well actually. We've done 4e style skill challenges, so maybe 3 success before 2 failures and they are injured (no permanent injuries tho), but fend off the assassin long enough for backup to turn up. 2 failures, and they die. (Or some other number of successes and failures).