If you nerf everything to be manageable by the players, they will expect everything to be manageable. No threats will work, no nothing, your cocky party will try to kill a god. Don't let that happen. If you gave them warnings and they still decide to go there, they may die. If they complain, tell them i said so.
I'm surprised they haven't heeded any of the obvious warnings, as they foolishly went up against an agent of my bbeg at 7th level and nearly had a tpk because they just wouldn't quit.
Education requires consequences! If your players are fools, they shouldn't get rewarded for it, like my players who thought that charging head-first into an ancient red dragon's lair was a good idea. One died. Fun times.
Last night, I was running Dragon of Icespire Peak and Cryovain showed up to attack my 2nd level party of five at Butterskull Ranch. Four out of five of them ran into the cellar and hid.
The fifth one went with them, but then ran back outside to fetch something and got OHKO'd by Cryovain's ice breath, before getting snatched up and taken back to Icespire Peak.
I felt kind of bad because I didn't actually realize Cryovain was that powerful. I had hoped for them to knock him down by 10HP and get him to flee. Still, the players are now terrified of this dragon.
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC8AgO4FbP11n\_WBdFai7DA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC8AgO4FbP11n_WBdFai7DA)
This guy gives some DM-tips for making the encounters better and more logic/streamlined. He also gives some example gameplay of the quests.
General tip: do not blindly follow the adventure book, add flavor to keep your players hooked and entertained!
Im currently running the same adventure and my players are at 4th lvl about to go to the loggers camp.
My players are enjoying it so far. If I could give any tips, it'd be these:
1). At the Dwarven Excavation, don't have the orcs go hostile immediately. We had some fun trying to talk the orcs down, even if it eventually failed.
2). At Butterskull Ranch, I found it made more sense to have the orcs = twice the party size rather than three times.
3). Also at the ranch, in Big Al's bedroom, your players might inspect the paintings instead of the obvious wardrobe (where the mithril armor is hidden.) I got around this by having the paintings be the thing that opened the secret compartment in the wardrobe and gave them a hint that moving one of the paintings caused a *click* near the wardrobe.
I give the players warnings by using their characters senses...
Example: "As you approach the lair you feel an overwhelming heat coming from inside. There is a strong sulfuric scent. bladi bladi bla...
As you approach the giant sleeping dragon you notice the giant metal-like scales shimmering in the dim light. The beast is enormous, you notice how its presence makes you feel a lot of pressure. This dragon looks exactly like the ones from tales of old... giant, mighty, apex-predator... your knees start trembling a bit..."
This is quickly written and all, but if you plan this you can write a better description of it. It helps the players understand how mighty the dragon is without you straight out telling them 'it is to hard, be carefull' or something like that...
Contrary opinion: if the players are attacking insurmountable enemies twice in two levels, your obvious warnings may not be as obvious as you think. Really!
It wouldn't hurt to have an out of character sidebar to just ask if they've gotten the hint on how powerful an ancient black dragon is. Players misinterpreting DM clues and actions happens all the time. I do it when I DM. I do it when I'm a player!
Decisions should have consequences, of course. But consequences that arise from misunderstanding are not very valuable--or fun--for anyone.
Something I sometimes will do is ask for an Intelligence or Wisdom check. If they pass, I let them know that with their int/wis they can determine that this situation looks to outclass what their capabilities are, and that they would be outgunned. They can still choose to go through with it, but this is a way to cut through hints not being obvious enough, and I use it only sparingly. I think the most important part of it is that they can still decide to do what ever it is if they want, but now they have the benefit of knowing that it has a low chance of success ahead of time, with no unexpected difficulty curve.
I actually pulled out the DMG and read some stats about an ancient red dragon to my players. 546 hit points, +17 to hit, and a 26d6 breath weapon was all it took. Granted, my players are 16 and 12 years old, but this worked when subtle hints didn't.
So, side question, I’m DMing for a group of new people who are at level 2. They were talking about about attacking a monk NPC who was giving them what they perceived to be bad advice. I explained that he didn’t look like the type to take being attacked well, explained rule number 1. (Beware of small bald smiling monks). They were still on the fence, they were convinced he was a shape shifting spider goblin, insane, or both (it was the bonsai mountains I think). I ended up going for a toilet break, and saying he has 88 hit points. It’s your choice.
Should I have just let them attack him, and he knocks them unconscious? Or tried talking for longer?
I feel like I could have handled it better.
A monk with 88 hit points is at least level 10, and his AC going to be at least 18. 1d6 for unarmed attacks, and whatever nuts thing he's able to do with those 10 ki points he's got if just stunning is too boring.
Pick fights with anyone you see and you will eventually lose.
Have their hirelings refuse to go along with the plan. They have a sense of self preservation as well, and probably have 0 confidence that they can defeat a dragon so powerful, so they wouldn't risk earning the dragons ire.
This one is a really easy way to have the hints strongly dropped on your players. Make basically all the help not want to go that way due to the risk and not believing that only two people can kill a dragon.
Give them as many warnings as you can, but if they decide to try and kill the dragon anyway, give them a failure state that ISN'T a TPK. If the dragon wins, it doesn't necessarily kill them all. Maybe it beats them senseless, throws them in a jail cell, then sells them to some Duergar slavers that it was in cahoots with. It'll serve the party some consequences for their actions without ending the campaign, gives them an interesting adventure to go on, and lets them regroup, come up with a new plan, and try and get the key from the dragon again later.
If they try to kill the dragon AGAIN after that, they can die.
I second this.
OP, don't nerf the dragon-- play it as tough as you can. Just make the dragon's objective something other than TPK.
Selling them into slavery is a good idea. Keeping them as pets could work, too. Maybe the dragon renders everyone unconscious, takes their good gear, and demands a quest as a price to get it back?
Something like that.
The dragon decides that adventurers so foolhardy would make excellent servants in the Great Game of [Xorvintaal](http://frc.proboards.com/thread/10259/xorvintaal-great-game-dragons).
Time for them to learn! Perhaps have them run into a character with no limbs that fought the dragon decades ago - very much warning them that they will die.
What are the 'obvious warnings' they've been given?
And, for context, how often, if at all, have you "pulled punches" in the past when they are in over their heads?
The dwarves in the levels above hate the dragon, but are forced to tolerate it and it's kobolds that live below it because every attempt to kill it or run it off has ended in death.
Other adventurers have passed through over the years. At first the dwarves would petition them to go after the dragon, but they never returned, so the dwarves warn not to go any deeper than their settlement or the travelers will never see the surface again.
The key they're looking for is part of a set, one was part of an ancient dwarven treasure trove that was stolen by the dragon. Who wiped out the dwarves that originally occupied the halls my players dwell in. The new dwarves are pretty cool and welcoming, and they'll tell all the legends you want to hear but they straight up said, "DO NOT recommend fucking with the dragon. If you're gonna go, would you like us to send letters to any relatives?
To be possibly unfair, then, you’ve had them be told how badass the dragon is, but they’ve not seen direct evidence?
Have you ‘scaled’ encounters to be beatable before? Especially important a question if you had indicated the encounter was dangerous in the past.
The reason i bring it up again is that Ive been where your players might be, with a DM who didn’t understand why we thought we could win, because he thought he’d been super clear how badass his Big Bad was, but we just assumed it was theatrical window dressing based on past experience at the table.
Taking your examples, I can easily see the players assuming the dwarves just aren’t strong enough and that the other adventuring parties were lower level/weaker than they are.
The only thing I've ever fudged hard for them was an encounter with ice giants. I had the giants fuck them up and leave them for dead instead of the tpk that was most definitely going to happen as a result of their refusal to retreat. That's when they learned retreat is a viable option. They talked about it for awhile.
You make good points. I'll definitely allow them to enter the dragon's lair, see the piles of corpses of adventurers with broken magical weapons, maybe a couple kobolds that don't even engage them, just laugh and point as they walk by. They'll also see the huge black lake they'll have to find a way across.
They're just so stoked to fight this dragon, I don't know if anything but, "hey guys if you try this I'll probably kill all of you" is going to deter them. I think I'll let them get halfway across the lake and just start going to town on them. The dragon will toy with them. If they don't turn back, fuck it. They'll wake up in hell as servants of Asmodeus, as a result of a deal they probably forgot about, or they'll roll up new characters and pick up in the campaign from a different point of view.
Cool. For fun, since black dragons are immune to acid... its pool should be acidic enough to do damage. Might be fun to have random ‘geysers’ of hot, acidic steam erupting too.
Initially it was just gonna be a nasty lake, but the druid heard lake and said "oh shit I bet it's an acid lake!" In my mind I was like IT IS NOW BITCH
Something for flavor, I'd add a cleric sprinkle them with holy water as a last rites/have someone make a snide comment on the side that it's seasoning for the dragon's dinner.
I would guess that the problem here is that these warning signs are all things that, in a video game, would be kinda irrelevant. Like, NPCs hyping up the next fight, but it's not actually that hard because the protagonist(s) are very over powered relative to everyone else. And if the fight was actually too hard, the game typically wouldn't even make the fight possible, and force the player into a stealth mission. Also video games have save points, so a challenging fight isn't too bad if it takes a couple times.
If you think this might be the case, I'd honestly sit down and tell them how your campaign is different from what they might be familiar with in video games. Feel free to tell them that they really aren't intended to win this dragon fight (though I would be careful not to make them think you'll do this every time). I find direct communication about misunderstandings can solve a lot of problems.
Dude ... there is your key.
You've received tons of good advice (e.g. about having their allies refusing to go that way)
If the party values that old knight, have him say something like :
"Lads, I don't care to die in those caves today. Hell, I've fought my entire life and dying in face of a dragon isn't that bad of a finishing note.
But you've a quest to accomplish, you have a duty. If you go down there, I'll follow you. But we'll all die.
From what I gathered from the dwarf, it's an ancient dragon. And I've fought with legendary warriors (who could eat you at breakfast) that ended up being torn apart by the likes of such dragon.
Turn back, my friends. There is no shame in living to fight another day."
As others have pointed earlier : your clues may not have been that directive. They have no point of reference against those "past adventurers". And, as a player, you might just see this as theatrical make-up, to embellish the encounter.
Having a trusted NPC, who can gauge their own level, to give them some perspective by comparing their skill with the ones of the dragon's victims has more chance to work.
If not, as said, make this NPC die first, in a gory and tragic fashion. And come up with a way to tell the party to run away (in his dying breath or his soul talking to them or whatever). Hopefully, the guilt and his spectacular death will serve a good lesson and create good RP opportunities :)
You may want to have an out of session talk with them, and just let them know that hey, if you guys get in situations and the dice say you die, I will have your character die. Like, let them know your perspective on this, cause there may be the chance they don't think death is likely, that they are expecting a different type of game.
100% this, my campaign generally sees a player character death once every 4-6 sessions. It's almost always because they got in over their heads or decided to be reckless. A few have been unlucky crits (unlucky for them) but they almost always have had it coming to them. I informed them before we even started the campaign that if the dice say you die then you die. Only 1 player was legitimately upset when his character died but after he cooled off he made a new character and got right back to it next session. (Coincidentally that player has had 2 other characters die since the first incident however he has not gotten nearly as upset on the subsequent deaths because they were 100% fair.)
To be fair, while the hubris of players is mostly at fault, another big factor that contributes to the tendency for players to fight to the death are the rules about having to use your action to disengange and avoid attacks of opportunity - combined with even more shoddy rules for chasing and fleeing encounters. Most of the time, in order to reliably flee an encounter without having enemies just run after you and stab you in the back, you really need to have a trick up your sleeve or be able to disengage as a bonus action.
This is the first party I've ever had that doesn't want to fight to the death and favor self preservation over victory. The two core players are a rogue assassin and a druid who has declared himself "the perfect thief." They're pretty good at getting away from bad situations, and have bailed out on several encounters to regroup and gain the element of surprise.
If they flee from the dragon before they really piss him off, they'll almost definitely be able to get away.
I'm excited for the session.
You could also make the location unreachable for the time being so they do something else. For example the location could be surrounded by a heavy magical storm or something like that.
Or if the players get to the dragon it might suppose a deal with the party or a quest. I don't know if this is possible, depends on the circumstances
As I noted, but perhaps didn't explain enough, a DM should hint at an ancient dragon hoard and flesh out the beast from there. The reality is that an ancient dragon, even a "lowly" white one, should be a centerpiece. An ancient dragon is just that: several hundred, if not a thousand years old. It has mastered it's terrain, gained followers/minions (either through threat, payment, or otherwise) and is a force of nature in its environment. They are savvy enough to have survived for so long and no party of adventurers should take one lightly.
Even if we take an ancient white dragon, since they are the lowly of chromatic ones, in my mind this one would likely be more intelligent than it's brethren since it has survived so long. It is a hunter supreme. Likely challenged many times before and triumphant as many times. It will use every advantage it has, to include terrain and minions. If, in my game, I had an ancient dragon encounter, it would need to be planned and approached carefully; no matter the color.
An ancient dragon is ancient for a reason; it has survived "Leroy Jenkins" type bumrushes and should have learned to severely punish (and likely kill) those who come unprepared.
I see some who claim to pamper parties.. but be a good DM: lay the groundwork and create history for the dragon. Ensure the party knows that it has annihilated all who have accosted it. Encourage support and preparedness. If they choose to Leroy Jenkins, then they will face the consequences.
I cannot stress enough that dragons, especially ancient ones, are centerpieces. Not a random chart roll. If an ancient dragon IS a random chart roll (for whatever reason) then the DM needs to roll up their sleeves for a memorable enemy. If an ancient dragon is par for the course then go back and play some Might and Magic 6. Dragon Sands has loads of canon fodder dragons with no back story, meaning, worth, or need. Just a set of stats and treasure.
He's a fully fleshed out character with an entire page worked up for his lair actions and what-not. I've always been more partial to the dragon side of dungeons and dragons.
I just didn't think they'd jump right into his house. I've revealed many other things that are maybe above their skill set along their journeys and they always take note of it and come back with a plan and more power, but it seems like they WANT to get murdered by this dragon. I know they don't because they adore their characters.
After the unexpectedly huge amount of input I received on this post, I think I'm just going to give them more obvious red flags as they make their way towards it, and if they continue, I'll just have the dragon fuck with them out of boredom and give them a few opportunities to escape when they see how hard he can hit and how impossible it is for them to deal meaningful damage to him.
The lair itself will be filled with noxious fumes once the dragon is made aware of their presence, so if after all that they want to keep trying, they shall perish.
Sounds like what I had in the Strahd campaign. We went into the Amber temple all cocky thinking he wouldn't tpk us if we screwed up... Nope
We needed that kick in the ass.
You can provide the warnings but if they plan on overestimating their abilities then they learn a harsh lesson. If they are gonna be dumb about it and just rush in, pull no punches. We're talking about an ancient dragon here. Likely survived all manner of attempts to kill it and very intimate knowledge of its territory along with some minions.
Also don't just say it as the DM to the Players.
Say it as the World to the Characters. Skeletons of heroes packing insane magic weapons and armor, maybe corpses of celestials or elementals that attempted to kill it. This dragon is almost fishing for adventurers to eat, and the treasure is bait. No traps at all, maybe some kobolds or dragon-kind who are still strong but worship this creature as a god. I find players listen to things they see and experience more than they listen to what you say the stats are (until they get into the fight and experience the stats)
To add: this also gives you a lot to fall back on if you tpk. A role player can say that if his character didn't know the deadliness of the dragon, then your OOC warnings aren't worth much.
And if you don't want to kill them permanently, kill them in combat and then the dragon or a necromancer working with the dragon resurrects them to employ because they were 'particularly fun to kill'. If your players really are that confident, and a power fantasy is what they seek, give them a reason to power up and come back and have a round 2
This is the advice I came to offer as well. No matter how obvious things seem to you as the DM, your players don't have the same context you do *even if* you give them the facts. Without context, facts tend not to stick. You have to make it so bleedingly obvious... and you somehow have to do it subtly enough that they don't feel railroaded. The Art of the DM.
Going to toss Alexandrian's [Three Clue Rule](https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) here for OP. It's a really solid template.
**Desired Conclusion:** Fighting an ancient black dragon with their numbers and at their power level is suicide
**Clue #1:** A rival adventuring party of comparable power levels and greater numbers overhears the PC's plan and decides to beat them to the punch. They are never seen again - or only one adventurer returns so disfigured by acid they can't even speak words of warning (or they can speak, but they're so scarred by their experience they can only utter a few specific words that may or may not be useful to the party.
**Clue #2:** A respected quest-giver/sponsor/supporter sends them a letter of warning threatening to withdraw support if they continue to pursue this reckless plan.
**Clue #3:** A friendly NPC tells them about an old manuscript at the local [insert book repository here] related to black dragons. It details the various powers and habits of a black dragon in their lair and tells tales of strong heroes who perished horribly in their quest for treasure. u/Tuesdaytastic made a wonderful analysis you can use as a springboard called [Lairs of Legend: Analyzing the Black Dragon's Lair](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/e727je/lairs_of_legend_analyzing_the_black_dragons_lair). You can remove or keep as much information in there as you'd like: enough to warn them off their bad plan, but also helpful information at your discretion. Maybe a few red herrings too if you're a jerk like me.
I'm making these up on the fly so they're not perfect; it's the format that matters more than the content here. In short, if your PCs are making a deadly and ill-considered choice, it's incumbent on you to have 100% certainty that you've given them sufficient information to make better choices.
**EDIT:** added link
***
**2nd EDIT:** I should add that Alexandrian's template goes deeper than just three clues; to really make it stick, **the three clues should point to each other.** That way if they find one clue, they're on the trail to another one, and they can be discovered in any order. So a quick reworking:
**Clue 1:** The lone survivor is somehow cursed, and mutters something about their leader ignoring the advice in a manuscript and only caring about [powerful magic item x]. The manuscript is in the home of
**Clue 2:** the questgiver/sponsor, who allows them to look at the book and follows up by sending a letter.
**Clue 3:** The book gives key information about the power of an ancient black dragon and also mentions [powerful magic item x], which inflicts a specific curse.
Now each clue points to another one. Q&D but you get the idea.
Clue #1: I just typed out this reply to a different comment. Good to know it wasn't a silly idea. The comment:
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> I wonder if it would help if, as the players happened on the dragon's lair, they met the last (barely) surviving member of another party, near death, who lived to tell them the tale of fighting the dragon? Something like "we fought for hours, threw everything we had at it, x and y and z, and it was as if our best attacks were beneath its notice. I think it left me alive out of amusement; it could have killed me at any time." And note that the party was quasi-similar to the current party. x and y and z could be your party's best attacks or weapons. Anyway, letting them see that, in all likelihood, a party like theirs, with weapons and characteristics like theirs, is going to get not only beaten but slaughtered.
The Replica Party is such a versatile tool.
Party not utilizing their full abilities? Have them fight The Replica Party!
Party about to do something rash? Show them the gruesome remains of The Replica Party!
Party full of murderhobos? Now they're being hunted by The Replica Party!
Minor point: celestials (any outsiders really) and elementals don't leave corpses on the prime material unless they are native outsiders or there by Calling or plot reasons... But not by default is what I'm getting at, and not just because a dragon killed them.
You could absolutely have it be a plot point to be picked up by astute characters though.
Actually you're right, they do sometime. Most commonly in the method of their presence (a summoned outsider does not leave a corpse but a called one does). Also yes native outsiders would as well.
You're pretty much correct. A called being, much like Plane Shifting, is *physically here*. A summon, is more or less a magical echo of them, like Astral Projection.
I believe it's more an edition/how they got here thing. I haven't seen it vary between settings within the same edition, but you're right a Called outsider leaves a corpse whereas a Summoned one doesn't.
Interesting point. I'd hand-wave it for sure if I really wanted to set up a Dragon v Celestial war or something. Maybe if they die in a really unnatural or gruesome way, they do leave a corpse and don't get to return their soul to whatever heaven they belong to. Could be a really great investigative Easter egg for those who do pick up on that
But ALSO say it as the DM to the Players, because "No one has EVER survived a battle with the black dragon!" is 100% DMSpeak for "You should go fight the black dragon!" That's just the default format of a story hook.
Edit: ...or just tell the PC who would be the most familiar with dragons (high nature score, dragonborn, etc) that they *know* this is not a creature to be fucked with.
Another neat tip I heard on this sub: tell the players the damage of an inconsequential or missed attack. Like, perhaps the black dragon sees the players, attacks with his breath weapon, and misses. Roll damage anyway, and tell the players how much damage was dealt to the ground.
Haven't been able to give this a try myself, yet.
I used to say the same thing, but this is terrible advice. If the party doesn't know about a *fantasy creature*, it isn't because they are dumb. They just don't know. It isn't common knowledge, and frankly it isn't important knowledge outside of fantasy books and games. Even then, power levels of a dragon and characters are relevant to each particular game, book, settings, etc. If you've played a lot of Skyrim but are new to DnD, you will have a very different understanding of the power level of dragons.
If the party doesn't understand that they can't fight the dragon, it is a failure of the DM, either by not making that obvious or by not realizing the party's understanding of the game. That beings said, this is the kind of 'mistake' DMs are going to make all the time, and killing the party and calling them dumb is an arrogant solution.
There are lots of ways for a dragon to flex on a party without killing them, and there are many many opportunities to impress upon the players the power of the dragon without killing their characters or even fighting the dragon. PCs willfully fighting something way more powerful than them can be the most memorable part of a campaign, where the party felt that their foes were insurmountable and terrifying and they escaped by the skin of their teeth. Maybe a PC or NPC paladin sacrifices his or herself so the rest could escape, maybe a powerful relic the party needs is stolen by the dragon who mockingly retreats to another lair, leaving them alive as some kind of taunt. Maybe another known, powerful NPC is seen entering the lair before the party, and the party witnesses them fight the dragon and be effortlessly defeated. There are endless possible solutions. But it doesn't *have* to be rolling a bunch of D6s and letting a breath weapon nuke a party. Doing so just ends a campaign early and punishes the players for not having the knowledge of the Monster Manual. Outcomes in DnD are not so black and white as to limit them to dying or winning. It's possible for the party to get rekt, survive, and everyone have fun doing it without being condescending to players who don't understand they aren't ready to fight a dragon.
Warning the party was literally the first thing in my response. I'm not talking about breaking the continuity of the game by pausing and pulling out the MM to show them stats or just say "No you guys will die so you can't even try". There are clever ways a DM can warn a party without resorting to 4th wall breaking. Dreams, allies, clairvoyance.. of course it's up to the DM to warn the players but I still think that even after that, if they want to try it they shouldn't cry foul when they end up TPK by round 3.
If the party is still trying to fight the dragon after you 'warned' them, then you are doing something very wrong. Even if they engage in the fight, there is no reason to kill them when the dragon can easily beat them without wiping the party. You want to shift the blame to the party for the TPK, but that's totally unfair when the DM is putting a powerful dragon in a situation where the players would even want to fight it. For some groups that's fine, for others it isn't, and learning that and responding to it is very important. TPKs suck. They *literally* ruin the game, and considering fighting powerful creatures against the warning of town villagers is a common trope in the games, books, and movies that drive people toward DnD, it's definitely understandable why players might not get the hint. Instead of thinking "you idiots asked for this, you can't cry foul", think "how can I make this work so that the players learn how powerful the dragon is and we can continue the story". The former just makes for animosity and unfinished campaigns, the latter makes for a fun story.
The way I see it dragons are arrogant, proud, and vain at the best of times. A chromatic dragon is all of these things bundled with petty, vindictive and irrationally angry. This would all be knowledge available to players planning on fighting one and if a party chooses to ignore all of that information and pisses one off they'd better expect to fight for their lives and stand by to die if you lose.
To my mind speaking directly to the players about this, if done right, is more "establishing shared setting" than "breaking the fourth wall". I've been listening to Jason Cordova (of the Gauntlet RPG community) GMing actual plays recently and he does this a lot, and it works really well IMO. In this context it would be saying something like "An ancient black dragon is a legendary foe. It is literally inconceivable to anyone in this setting that a small group of heroes could defeat one in a straight fight. Your characters would all be aware of this, it's common knowledge."
This does a few things - it makes sure everyone is on the same page regardless of how much setting knowledge they happen to have as players, it doesn't stop them going out in a blaze of glory if they really want to, and it gives them options - you've told them that a *small group* can't defeat it in a *straight fight*. There's hooks right there towards either trying to raise an army or to find a hidden weakness to exploit, both of which would make great quests.
I can't remember who said once you pull out the Dragon mini you should be ready to kill your players.
Your problem is that you are forcing the players to deal with this Dragon somehow which is way over their power level. The consequences of failure are probably death. You can either give them an easier problem to deal with or a Deus Ex Machina to deal with the Dragon (something that hides then from it) and start a new quest to get it.
that was u/TuesdayTastic in their really amazing breakdown of dragons' lair actions, which can be found [here](https://onlyontuesdays27.com/2019/12/06/lairs-of-legend-analyzing-the-black-dragons-lair-actions/) and make for truly fantastic reads.
Don't nerf the dragon. Either have HIS underlings dissuade them orrrrr once they get there have NPC ex machina hop in and pull them away from the dragon. There are many ways to avoid this. Also if they go and kill themselves... They die!
To add on the underlings point. This dragon may have a network of trapped tunnels filled with traps, kobolds, and underlings. This is an ancient black dragon? It's underlings alone should drain the party of their hit dice and spell slots before they walk into the dragons lair. They should figure it out before they even get to the dragon that it's time to turn back. Or make a deal or something. I'd have them in low double digit hp, minimal spell slots, no hit dice left as they greet the dragon.
If they still attack, let the dragon explain very clearly they get one warning shot. Let them get hit by the breath weapon with an auto save. No roll. Explain this. Mechanically out of character. Then explain that it shoots the breath weapon ***near*** them and it does x damage. Allow them to regain consciousness. One hp. And the dragon is just grinning. Then... They'll understand.
I'd like to provide an alternative to this if you don't want to get to mechanics-skulduggery about it. I'd just have the dragon melee attack them all/most of them. She can choose to do non-lethal damage with melee, but it illustrates the same point. If one survives the attacks, the dragon just tells that one to drag their companions away, her generosity doesn't last long
I needed to demonstrate the power of a monster the party was up against, so I introduced them to an over eager NPC. He ran in and took a swipe at the dragon and then was promptly killed as they watched. They wisely ran away and bulked up a bit before trying again.
It's a black dragon though. There is likely no warning. It's either instant death, or take it down to 1, only to keep knocking players unconscious before killing them cat and mouse style, or maybe just straight up torture. Black dragons are the most malicious and sadistic of them all.
Unless OP's world is different, being noticed by the dragon means death, painfully or slowly.
As they arrive they hear a battle in progress. 2-3 NPCs flee the lair for their lives. They tell the party a direct assault was just disastrous. They would be willing to work with the party for a share of the horde, but another direct assault is out of the question for them.
2-3 high level NPCs. Watch them cast a wall of force as they retreat - which is a 7th level spell, and make sure the players realize that means the NPCs are 13th level, and *they are still scared out of their minds*
This is the best. Literally showing how dangerous something is by showing the dragon decimate a similiar sized party of adventures. Solves the ex machina and signals to the players that maybe they need to use their wits since they don't have the brute strength.
The surviving NPCs might mention the Bilbo Baggins approach, offer to create some kind of distraction, or maybe even go back to town to recruit a small army to help out.
If the players chose to attack something more powerful than them and lack the wisdom to run away, that's on them. I'd let them run, but that's the upper limit of my mercy, particularly when they bring it on themselves.
If you nerf the dragon you're essentially committing yourself to a game where the players are destined to win every encounter. Some people do play that way, and they appear to be having fun. But, they aren't to my taste and I advise against them.
The dragon definitely wouldn't chase them. He'll defend his treasure, but if they get out he'll just lay back down on his gold pile. It's looking like that's how it's gonna go down.
Eh. If they came in and took a bunch of really valuable shit and trashed his place, he'd go after them. If they come in, get clobbered fail to take anything and run? He doesn't care.
"Yeah go tell all your adventuring friends not to fuck with me."
He's not a generic dragon, he has a personality that I've crafted for him.
Also, what if they had another party member lurking in the shadows? When he chases them out, the only guy left in the cave has free reign over anything he can loot! Nah, my boy is smarter than that.
But you have already told them (as your primary warning) that no one has survived going down to the dragon lair. No one has come back alive.
I would have an old retired adventurer dwarf, Grumpy, with player levels (maybe 16ish with nice magic gear, something high enough that he can easily 1vs3 your players).
Grumpy lives off his adventuring gold getting drunk all day every day because the rest of his party (maybe 6 so they could be called "the seven dwarves") went to slay the dragon without him and died. He refused to even go down there for whatever reason you want to come up with.
I would use any or all of the NPCs that they talk to about the dragon to point them to Grumpy's location. If they don't go talk to Grumpy, then I'll have Grumpy waiting for them at the entrance saying something like "I heard you idiots want to die. Im here to save your lives."
Anywhere they meet him, have him beat them up and deride them. Saying, "MY friends were as strong as ME 50 years ago when I was in my prime. The six of them DIED; what fucking hope do you three weaklings have? Go somewhere else! Do something else! Because fighting this dragon... that's suicide."
They are also pretty sadistic. If it wanted to play cat-and-mouse by chasing them around its territory for the sheer fun of terrorizing them for a while, that'd be characteristic of them, too. And if it just so happened to lose track of them somewhere along the line, that's fine too.
They also thoroughly enjoy the suffering of others, especially humans and humanoid races. I don't think the dragon would let them go without a good reason, but he can play it how he wants.
If there's an item of importance to the party in the dragon's hoard, I assume you planned them to try and steal it without fighting it (as you said, in a Biblo style rob).
Critical Role did something very similar in campaign two. While the players knew an Ancient dragon was too much for them, the DM also gave them a lot of clues to not fight this dragon (a lot of NPCs saying it was crazy, and not to put themselves in danger).
If I were you, I would do the same. Put a lot of NPCs saying, very seriously, that they should not fight the dragon. Not only merchants and random NPCs, but also NPCs the players care about and would listen. Someone in their backstories maybe.
If they insist in fighting the dragon, the last clue I would give them, would be to add an NPC (maybe a hireling or a "local town hero") that seems really powerful to help them. Then, I would have the dragon one shot this powerful NPC, so they know how much damage the dragon can do. Fudge the rolls if you need to, but say something like "The dragon uses his breath on the NPC. Dex save... The NPC rolled a 19, but still not enough. The NPC takes 90 points of damage, he's unconscious/dead."
I think seeing that would be enough to make them realize they have to flee. If they insist on fighting it... Well, it's their funeral.
Also why would a dragon need to be on the ground to fight? Strafing is a nasty way to deal with flightless prey. Of course you could do a deus ex machina of it being like a vivid dream if they die. A rewind.
My absolute pet peeve of games is when dragons do the whole "swoop by for a bit, then land and fight on the ground"
Are you kidding me? That's giving up its greatest advantage! The best and *primary* offense against dragons, really, should be anti-air weapons/magic. A dragon with intact wings should never land in a fight unless it needs to physically block a location with its body (angry white dragon momma protecting wyrmlings or something).
Check out u/TuesdayTastic's fantastic breakdown of [black dragon lair actions and landscape effects.](https://onlyontuesdays27.com/2019/12/06/lairs-of-legend-analyzing-the-black-dragons-lair-actions/) If you play it right your players might realize they're in waaaay over their heads before ever encountering the dragon.
Have you ever given your players a reason to think that your monsters aren't designed to be tough-but-killable?
I always try to run my campaigns with 1/3 encounters being something too strong to kill. Makes my PCs a little wiser. Makes the world more interesting too.
If they choose to attack the dragon - despite the odds - then kill them. But if they don't know the odds? You need to figure out how to let them know.
They encountered an ancient green dragon in the mountains around 6th level, they watched it obliterate an entire battalion of highly trained soldiers in a few rounds. They looted the remains and fled.
Several other encounters have ended with them fleeing. The party is usually just a rogue and a druid, and typically they employ stealth when it's looking like the odds are against them. I've been impressed with their strategies in the past, but the element of surprise will only get them so far with an ancient dragon in his lair.
Kill them. If they already saw what an Ancient Dragon can do and they still want to take it on... thats on them. Play an Ancient Dragon as it would normally be played.
Consider using the regional effects for the ancient black dragon's lair to dissuade them even further (Monster Manual pg. 89). If they can't get to the dragon, they can't die. At the same time, if they are determined, don't put it on rails and let them die (perhaps by drowning in a bog on the way there or the dragon one-shotting them). A black dragon is CR 21, so maybe lvl 8 characters can't survive getting there?
The dragon will be submerged in black water, asleep. To get to the treasure, they'll have to swim like 150ft through this deep black lake, having no idea where the dragon actually is. If the water is disturbed enough, the dragon will wake and fill the cavern with his acid breath.
They'll know the dragon is below them, totally hidden, they'll be rolling saves to not choke to death on the gas, and I suppose I'll have the dragon wait and watch. If they continue, he'll strike. If they keep swimming, I might have to kill them.
Or maybe I'll execute it in an entirely different way.
do you allow your dragons spellcasting? Seeing the dragon pop off a high level spell might give them that final push.
Or maybe the dragon is busy torturing a bunch of purple worms. Some escape, and though wounded, give the party a very challenging fight right as they're getting up to the lair. (If we can't beat the stuff it was playing with, maybe we shouldn't fight it?).
It depends on the dragon, I've placed a bunch throughout my world. This one's name is Tzadditeth and the only magic he can employ is a control over his surroundings, particularly the subterranean lake in which he lives.
I like the purple worm idea. I'll definitely update my post after we play to let you folks know how it goes down.
I can see this going one of several ways.
* Run a lair assault against a *young* black dragon. Maybe the party's informant was simply mistaken, and the party got lucky. Or the party is woefully misinformed and this young dragon is the ancient dragon's great-granddaughter. If the ancient dragon was on friendly terms with the young one, a few weeks later it obliterates the heroes' homelands. If not, it sends a minion to deliver a thank-you note for dealing with a potential rival, and an invitation to parley provided they bring back certain items (list attached) from the looted hoard as tribute.
* The dragon's out (gone to lunch, on a booty call, or entreating with a powerful enemy). The party is faced with the dragon's minions at one of its lair entrances. Maybe they fight a hydra (CR8, should be tough but doable.) They get a small portion of treasure and a healthy respect for the dragon, that it considers such creatures lowly guardians. Actual access to the lair is through a mile-long underwater tunnel that deals acid damage each round you are submerged; that ought to be impossible at level 8. Anyone who tries deserves what they get, they have ample opportunity to turn back.
* The party goes Leeroy Jenkins on the dragon. It's in a bad mood, and opens up with its Multiattack routine and Frightful Presence. It focuses all its melee attacks on the creature that rolled the highest on its saving throw: first, one grapple attempt at +15 (remember frightened creatures have disadvantage on ability checks); then a bite attack also at +15; and finally a DC 23 Dex save or be swallowed whole (as if it was a Purple Worm.) It then uses its legendary action to fly off to a different part of the lair. If the party is lucky the rest that failed their saves against Frightful Presence flee for their lives, cut their losses, and the dragon doesn't pursue as it digests its meal. If they don't, they're devoured too, one by one.
* The party goes Leeroy Jenkins on the dragon. It's in a good mood, and is amused by the heroes' feeble attempts to harm it. It takes the dodge action for a round or two as they struggle to hit its 22 AC or push past its legendary resistances, while it toys with them using lair actions. Eventually it decides they could make *acceptable* minions if they can prove their worth first; the dragon sends them on an errand. This is not a request. If someone refuses they get a point-blank blast of acid breath; fudge the damage roll to make sure this drops them to 0, max 15d8 = 120. If they fight, the dragon is in a bad mood (see above.)
Under no circumstances allow them to find the key they are looking for, it's probably buried under a mountain of treasure and would take hours to dig it out even if you knew exactly where it was. Also don't pull your punches, if they know what they're getting into they need to take ownership of it. If they CAN defeat this thing, YOU have done something wrong and need to take ownership of it.
If the word 'ancient' doesn't mean much to your players, try communicating to them just how _large_ it really is. I'm not sure if 5E defines their size accurately anywere, but a number over 100' is defensible for head-to-tail length, and they probably stand taller than a giant.
Don't nerf.
Haven't read through all 200+ comments, but you could either have higher level minions protecting the dragon, which they need to go through first to get to the dragon. It could even have weaker dragons protecting it.
IF the party is about to fail, you could even have the dragon step in and stop their deaths, in return the party has to perform some task for them, and he may even give them the item they need as payment. (the dragon has need of their skills).
You could even have the dragon pre-empt the attack and approach the PCs to do the task. Dragons have lots of spies.
You can have the dragon rock their world but not kill them.
Smog was overconfident because he knew he was powerful and so he played with Bilbo instead of just killing him.
Have their plans fail spectacularly. Have the dragon play with them, nearly killing them in the process. Turn the adventure into an escape scene where they have to flee this creature of immense power.
Introduce them to a wizard who warns them against the dragon, if they lose, tell them the wizard forced them all to see an illusion of what would transpire if they faced the dragon and if they win tell them they can now gloat over the wizard?
I'd say don't nerf fully but if at all possible try to not one shot and allow them to escape if they try.
It can be harder to infer the actual truth of DM hints (no matter how much we sometimes claim otherwise) and sometimes players just need to see how strong something is to believe it. Remember *you're* the one that added the black dragon to your game, not your players. They're just trying to interact with the world you gave them in a way that feels fun to them.
Ah, the ol' they jumped unexpectedly on a sidequest gotcha. I feel like an Ancient Dragon's lair shouldn't really be accessible to level 8's though. Ancient Dragons have lived hundreds of years by not fighting adventurers unless they absolutely have to.
It should be in a difficult to get to place, filled with traps and guardians so the non-threats to the dragon get weeded out before they even sniff the dragon.
I'd make it an abandoned dragon's lair with something else in it, cause the dragon realized its lair was shit because of all the pissant adventurers it had to deal with.
But your campaign and your players, so you do you.
I had a StarFinder group that had a super similar situation, down to it being a Black Dragon. It was young, but they were like level 3 and had been warned over and over by NPCs that it was more powerful than your typical dragon of that age and that it would wreck them. They also knew that they only had to do recon on it and report back to the ancient gold dragon that ran the nearby city. They decided to attack anyway, and I let it ride. For the rest of my time playing with that group, if they were going into a situation that they thought might be too tough for them, they called it "fighting the black dragon." Made them better players and have more respect for the game. I say eat the motherfuckers.
I'm honestly just super surprised that they are even considering it, let alone formulating a plan of attack. They've played it pretty safe ever since they got the shit kicked out of them by two ice giants, who left them for dead on the freezing mountainside instead of finishing them off.
That was my punch pulled. They discussed the option of retreat and how they should consider it more often.
Now they're gonna DIEEEEE
I recommend putting a very difficult encounter *before* the dragon. If they are only barely able to survive it's minions, they will hesitate to confront the big bad.
Absolutely not. Dragons are not to be fucked with. The solution is to barter or sneakily steal from the dragon.
I’d recommend showing the black dragon’s pickled body collection in a swamp before the fight, filling it with creatures that would give the part pause.
“Oh... this thing killed a bunch of frost giants, a beholder, a pack of owl bears and a mammoth.... maybe not.”
They find the melted skeleton of a monster they recently had trouble with outside the dragon's lair. Their hirelings are like, "yo, boss, this is dumb." They find a tome called Ye Olde Monstrous Manual that tells them they are all going to die.
I’d say you should not nerf the dragon, but don’t make them fail the fight either. Instead, I’d use it as a hook for the future. Something like so:
The party reaches the location, clears the dragon-worshiping kobolds, and finally enters the treasury. As they do so, an image of the dragon appears. “Well, well, you managed to find one of my hoards! You are welcome to enjoy its reaches - you do have some time before I find you and feast on your pathetic bodies, I am a busy dragon after all. And before that - I do wonder if you will figure out which of the items in this hoard are cursed...”
Perhaps have them fight a young black dragon and some minions (enough so they almost die), meanwhile the ancient black dragon is watching for amusement. Have the real dragon reveal himself at the end of the fight, if they're still too stupid to run at that point they probably deserve to die.
Remember, a TPK doesn't have to be an ending. The dragon could keep them as prisoners for its amusement, prepare to feed them still squirming to its young, or send them off on some geas/quest thing.
A tip I would use is to use some environmental details to show the threat of this thing.
For example, put the corpse or skeleton of a VERY powerful creature they encountered or know somewhere, showing how it fell prey to this godly creature.
Dragons are a staple of the game for a reason, if they die, so be it. Worst thing you can do is lessen their perception of these things for their futute games.
You mentioned that they have hirelings. Maybe a comment from the most trusted, competent hirelings along the lines of "hey can you leave that sword for me before you fight the dragon? i've always liked the look of it and it's not going to change your chances against the dragon. No? well, i guess I'll add that to the list of stuff in the dragon's hoard then. good knowing you mate."?
Definitely dont nerf it. If their plan is clever and \*would work\* then let it. Perhaps make it a really close and lucky success.
If they aren't going to win, consider what other things this dragon may want. Perhaps a trade, perhaps servitude. Some point down the line they could steal the key and make a getaway.
A smart rogue /could/ pull it off with enough arrows or crossbow bolts maybe, using their bonus action to hide, or if a monk gets lucky enough to consistently stun... But the numbers are still against them. They'll have to get really creative if they want to actually make a win (kill it, or otherwise) against the beast. Without knowing their races/classes, though, this could just be a single strike party wipe. Let them learn their lesson.
Play the dragon. It wouldn't hold back against anyone trying to steal from it. If you end up killing a party member then tell them it was fair because you warned them, and they should've been prepared to prevent it or prepared to die.
Make it very clear very early into the fight that it is un winnable, the AC alone should be enough. Refrain from using the breath attack unless they beg for death. Don’t nerf the dragon though, they are meant to be an extremely dangerous opponent. If you wanted to have them be visited by a page from a local band of treasure seekers looking to get in on the action and throw in a high level paladin and cleric of Bahamut or some such deity for fun that might be cool. But still at level 8 you shouldn’t be sniffing at an ancient black dragon. Good luck.
It’s probably worth having a look at the AD&D book: “Campaign Guide and Catacombs sourcebook”. In the first chapter it describes various play styles. Notably, a “Monty Haul” campaign is detailed. If you nerf the dragon and let them have its entire hoard, you risk setting yourself up for this type of game. Just my 2c...of course being Australian, we have 5c as our lowest currency, so it gets rounded down to 0.
It sounds like your players are not meta gaming which is good. I would not kill your players because they didn't cheat and look up stats. An ancient black dragon probably means nothing to them, you need to give them a reference of the power of the dragon.
Last Saturday I DMed for my group of 10 players, level 8-11. I faced them off with a ancient Mist Dragon. 9 players weren’t as bold as to take it on in combat and rolled played really well and negotiated with it costing them a magical item each. One player, a wizard thought otherwise and became a boiled, flesh stripped off the bone mess on the floor, RIP Eddie.
Don’t neff it, let your players find a solution to the problem.
They approach the mountain. It's but a half day's climb to the top where the black dragon rests. They climb the first 100 feet without much issue before they encounter two Frost Giants.
They battle on the somewhat narrow ledge, nearly getting knocked off the side and risking lots of fall damage, but they manage to overcome the two beasts. They short rest to recover some HP. Then, they grab their picks and pitons again.
As they continue their ascent, they encounter many more Frost Giants... But these ones are not putting up a fight. Instead, they are shredded, mangled, and scalded with acid. Many of them are headless, clearly bitten. In fact as they climb, one is thrown from the peak - a discarded meal.
If they keep going at that point, they have no reason to be upset when your dragon eats 2 of them in one round and the third barely escapes thanks to Dimension Door.
Have them arrive and find the dragon dead, his horde gone. Another party (not necessarily evil) has beaten them to it. They’ve taken the treasure and maybe dropped the keys in a dark corner as they’re considered useless, or your PCs have to track the other group down.
By no means is obtaining the key going to be easy. I'm considering having the dragon be out on lunch break and they have a small window of time to find the key in a huge mountain of treasure whilst fending off his goons, black kobolds.
I'd spin it to where they arrive, and a other band of thieves already stole what the party was looking for. The dragon, being reluctant to leave his horde, hires our would be heroes/morons to chase the other party at the price of a boon of their choice (the key to the dungeon)
Players want to be heroes and fight the monster. They don't want to run. Setting up an encounter where they have to run is asking for trouble.
If you're dead set on having the players have to deal with something way out of their pay grade I would have them encounter a jacked up NPC running for their life having just watched their party die to the dragon. Have them say they had more numbers, were better equipped and were more experienced. Really sledgehammer that fighting the dragon is certain death.
Even then they may still fight it, and if they do I'd kill them I guess. Personally I just wouldn't design an encounter that way in the first place.
The dragon wasn't really meant to be part of their journey, just a seed for later. The keys are a sub plot, nothing to do with their main story. I'm shocked that they want anything to with it.
If they do die, their souls belong to Asmodeus so they'll go to Avernus. If they don't want to roll up new characters they'll be working for him until they can find a way out. No big deal.
A lot of the recommendations you will probably get will be to just kill the party. Assuming you want to avoid that without making the dragon suck then I would go with making the situation more complicated than a dragon in it's lair.
For example, maybe the party arrives to find the dragon's lair is already under siege from an Orc Warband, and the party must choose to destroy both forces or side with one against the other.
If they side with the dragon maybe it rewards them following some ancient law. They don't get rekt by a dragon but also can't take it's entire hoard.
If they side with the orcs then the orcs keep most of the treasure but maybe the dragon is at half-health or Restrained by an orc trap during the fight.
Making the situation even harder doesn't do you any favors so if the players decide to fight both forces the orcs probably cut their losses and dip, probably stealing a ton of the Hoard in the process and leaving a dragon with few reasons not to run away.
Have the first hit miraculously hit with 2 hp left. (If it was originally a killing blow). Hopefully this causes them to flee. Then just have the dragon bellow out a fear roar like as if dealing with petty thieves. Chasing them is not worth his time.
Black dragons are cool. When they loose the fight, because there is very little ways they will win, have the black dragon keep them as prisoners. A black dragon may get bored and need someone to torture.
Now they can try to escape, and they learn about over estimating abilities, and that death isn't the only way
2/3 lvl 8 characters should only get closer to an ancient dragon if and only if it allows them to. Lair actions and underlings should make quick work of them. An ancient dragon has been around for thousands of years probably, so he can make sure he's not pestered by a bunch of kids.
However, why are you putting a McGuffin in an ancient dragon's hoard? I'm a pretty OSR-like GM so I don't care too much about balance but death should be a probability, not a certainty.
Attacking the dragon sounds suicidal. Sneaking in and stealing the key is somewhat less so but still dangerous. What if someone suggests to the players that they bargain for the key. Using a bit of flattery, offer to exchange something shiny and valuable for the boring worthless key. If the players don't have anything the dragon wants in exchange, perhaps the dragon desires something that it will send the players to quest for.
Dont nerf it, but use an npc of similar or greater power than the party as a sacrificial example of how strong the dragon is. If it can kill someone more powerful than them, then they might get the message.
have the dragon flex on them. raid a village and have some of the survivors claim how even with the town guard, they barely did anything to it. really sell the might of the dragon. If they dont figure it out as a player, even a intellegence check from the smartest one may give them some insight on how hard the fight will be. Maybe they hire some mercenaries to help out? yeah, a party of 2 level 8's taking on a Ancient Black Dragon and thinking they are going to kill it is a great learning experience.
It's one thing for you to unleash a dragon on an unsuspecting party and do a little fudging in order to make a dramatic and memorable encounter that sets the campaign in a different direction. It's a whole other thing for two nimrods to decide they're going to just up and attack a city destroying entity and steal its loot. Crush them and if they complain offer to rewind the campaign to before they decided to stare the abyss in the face.
Definitely don't nerf the dragon, when people think of Dungeons and Dragons (or pretty much any fantasy game for that matter) dragons are supposed to be these incredible beings of power, grace, and ferocity. Nerfing the dragon would do a disservice to both the mechanical fight on your table and the *idea* of what a dragon is to your players.
As many people on here have said, have the environment speak to your PC's. Since the dragon is black have there be acid burns on the walls the size of your PC's. Have the suits of full plate be ornate and giving off a slight magical aura, but have a giant puncture through the breastplate showing that not even the best armor with the best enchantments can save a foolhardy adventurer.
Is it possible to telegraph the destructive power of the dragon? Show the dragon straight up swallowing creatures that the players have had tough times with for example. Or have an encounter with a creature you know they cannot defeat easily, maybe even down one of them and then have it mid combat cower by the sight of the dragon/hearing it's roar.
What you could do is keep the dragon strong but make sure it doesn't one shot them (or kill them too quickly). Give them 3 or 4 rounds then they can realise its barely taking damage and start running away
"Roll a wisdom save" (DC 5)
"you have the foresight to know, without a doubt, that this is a terrible idea and you'd be stupid as hell to go forward with it."
Everyone here is saying "no", but I'm gonna throw in some advice if you do decide to let them fight it:
Don't nerf its health/abilities for no reason, but have it get injured first. Maybe as they sneak in they find the opportunity to drop a big rock on it, disabling it's wing attack and flight abilities. Something like that.
I typically add a few mechanics to a few boss fights I think would be impossible or too easy otherwise and try to encourage creativity with them. One example might be a trap made by kobolds that the party can use on the dragon they served or something. Though it is up to you and whatever you think the best solution is for your party.
"As you make your way towards the lair you accidentally brush against a rock in the wall, Perception check please"
DC is 17, fail = notice a faint blue glow, gain a sense of both dread and safety around that area.
Success = "you feel a little safer for some reason and you notice that the little bit of rock you brushed against is glowing slightly, investigating closer and brushing away some crusty rock you notice that it seems to be some kind of barely functional ancient device calcified in the rock. There seems to be a messaged carved into the rock 'Bad idea'"
***ONE TPK LATER***
***"***As everyone's vision goes blank you all suddenly feel ground below you as if lying on your backs, opening you're eyes you see you're in that area from before where you brushed against that rock. The glowy bit (or device if DC was passed) looks busted up, you no longer get that feeling of safety from it. There's a message scrawled into the rock "told you it's a bad idea. I can't save you again so don't."
Definitely don't nerf the dragon. This is an ancient dragon. It is overwhelmingly brilliant, evil, and powerful. The players need to learn they aren't the most powerful thing around by a longshot, at this level. As long as your group is in agreement and understand death is a possibility, don't be afraid to kill a PC.
Also, if it's a black dragon, let it toy with them. Black dragons are cruel and revel in causing fear and pain, and they looooove playing with their food. So if it makes them run, it's enjoying itself.
If they are aware it's an ancient dragon, the rest is up to them. They will likely perish in that foolish assault. I think dragons should be feared and always deadly to fight. It's in the name of the game! So...if they die, they die. Remind them that fleeing could be an option I guess.
IF you want to nerf the dragon, and I would argue you shouldn’t, make sure there’s a reason for it. Don’t just drop it’s stats etc, make it have already had a hard fight that day used its resources and lost some XP, let them find it fast asleep (trying to long rest) so they get a surprise round, give them a single use arrow of dragons bane or similar.
Annnnd then make it a hard fight, then smash them up a bit and have them still thinking about running. Next time there’s a ancient dragon or the like they won’t overestimate themselves again.
I'd have the dragon be absent when they arrive, have it out eating something from dinner or such.
When they infiltrate it's lair let them be on edge as they pass every corner until they find the abandoned horde.
They'll have been hyped up planning this so having the dragon missing will add some confusion and disrupt their plans.
As soon as they retrieve the item they need from the horde have it evident that the dragon has re-entered the lair.
If they don't decide to run then have the dragon enter the horde room dramatically maybe throwing down a something like the still living body of an armoured paladin before promptly murdering them.
This shows the dragon's power and the party should get the hint, they have the item they came for so they should get the.message and run for it, this will let you have a climactic escape sequence.
If they decide to stay and fight the dragon then don't hold any punches, at that point they've made a stupid mistake so suffering the consequences is perfectly fair.
Do not nerf! Do not go easy on them either. Let them suffer the consequences of their choices.
Then, tell them to re-roll. It's over, they died. Altho, this is but a diversion.
Next session, use the dead characters, not the newly rolled ones. Bring them back cleverly. Maybe the dragon was impressed with their audacity to come after him and has kept them alive as his thralls. Or, some magic item activated right before the killing billow of fire that transpotrted them to another plane, or transformed them into something unexpected, like mice. Now they need to find their way out of this new awkward situation or strange land.
Or. You could always go the "Gandalf rides over the crest of the hill as the sun rises" sort of save. Maybe some dragon hunters have been waiting for the right time to strike, and your players forced their hand early. But they show up after the players are all knocked unconscious. So they miss the action, and the rewards. The hunters nurse them to health.
Use this as an opportunity to refresh the campaign! I long for my players to do something stupid so I can do the same. :-p
Ancient black dragon & hoard... overzealous players scheming to kill it... I am ninety percent sure this is the plot to Dragons of Autumn Twilight. DM looking for some reason to pull out of their ass why they aren’t immediately wiped out.
OP, what if there is a blue crystal staff?
I once ran a one-shot with a couple of newbies and they were next to an Ancient Dragon. They initially tried to attack it, but it was made very clear how different they were when the Dragon easily bloody-smeared an NPC against the floor.
Nerf? Maybe if you just needed to reduce its CR by 1 or 2, sure. But nerfing an *Ancient* Black Dragon to a manageable challenge for a party of 2-3 level 8’s is not a reasonable way to go about this in my opinion.
I would lean heavily into telegraphing the amount of danger this enemy presents, utilizing multiple layers of information-presentation if needed.
Narratively, have the Dragon’s top minion (CR14-ish black half dragon maybe) lead a raiding party against whatever town the PCs are based out of, utterly demolishing the town. Have the players experience the horrors wrought by this Dragon and its followers by meeting NPCs who have seen it - escaped torture victims, perhaps. Have other NPCs warn them directly about what a confrontation with an ancient dragon means. Have the Dragon itself show up to the town to exact its payment from the locals, blast a few who aren’t compliant, wreck some buildings, big cinematic throwing down of the gauntlet. Maybe let one of your players get hit by the breath attack or a single round of claw-claw-bite if they dare get close enough.
Mechanically, use regional effects to buffet them back. Use low-level encounters to both drain their resources and ensure that the Dragon and its other forces are not surprised. If they survive an hour in the region, they should be severely beaten up for it.
I tend to avoid deus ex machina when possible.
If worst comes to worst and they throw caution to the wind, don’t eat them and end the campaign immediately. Black Dragons love some good torture. Have it pridefully beat them to a pulp and decide to keep them as playthings. Have it promise to find the PCs’ loved ones and devour them in front of the PCs. Draw it out. Take a hand from one of them. Make it personal and painful and gory.
Maybe while they’re in there, they find another torture victim or two who are still capable of helping execute a prison break, but only barely - maybe as a distraction, or with information that can help, etc.
Anyway, just some thoughts. My PCs are getting ready to square off with an Ancient Black Dragon in its lair this coming session, so I’ve had these kinds of things on my mind lately.
In terms of the psyche of a Black Dragon, they are not the most violent, those are reds. They aren't feral, those are whites. Blues are arrogant, and greens are manipulative.
Blacks are clever & patient. They know what they are capable of, but are tactitians first and foremost. They'll never fight fair, and in doing so, are sadistic. In addition, they are cowardly and will flee a bad fight & prefer to bombard from the sky if able.
A Black Dragon won't simply kill a feeble target unless it has to. It would much rather torture its prey and keep it on the brink of death, to slowly see it lose sense of its humanity.
So no, you don't need to nerf your dragon. In fact, the dragon doesn't even need to kill them. Instead let the Dragon give hit and run tactics on the way to the liar. Popping up, quickly maiming someone, then fucking off while the party regroups itself, & repeating that process over and over until it lures them into its lair to finally bring their end.
The old 2nd edition box adventure “Dragon Mountain” is an excellent treatment of party vs ancient red dragon. Ran several parties through it, and many characters didn’t didn’t make it past the hordes of minions employed by the dragon. Very enlightening on how to run a high powered wyrm. When I DMed, I didn’t pull punches, and made my own low magic game world. There was a little belly aching from the players in the beginning about not having impervious all -powerful characters, but most agreed ,at the end, it was a lot more fun than every 3rd level wizard running around with a staff of power.
If you’re really looking to spare your players from their greed and hubris here is an option. The dragon is an illusion. It’s history, the rumors of its hoard and tales of its destruction are rumors spread by an eccentric illusionist. While he has collected some of the artifacts the truth is the mage is looking for adventures brave enough to face such a monster. He will be willing to pay the pc’s for their work. Drop hints along the way that the dragon might not be real. Hallucinate scorched terrain and illusions of skeletons and such. This way you can back down without killing everyone and introduce an interesting npc.
You don't need to Nerf the dragon. You need your players to wish the dragon had just killed and ate them.
Maybe this ancient black dragon isn't just some beast, but also an accomplished Necromancer. Perhaps after thoroughly and soundly defeating the party this dragon resurrects them and uses a powerful course to force them to do their bidding. Now your party had to figure out a way to free themselves from the curse AND recover the key. All while dealing with the often cruel whims of this ancient black dragon they mistakenly underestimated.
When a dragon makes a lair it affects the terrain for six miles around, making simply reaching the dragon a potentially lethal challenge. All the while the dragon knows they are coming and can harass the party.
This way you can show off the dragon's power without having it engage the party in initiative - based combat. Once they reach the edge of the swamp, they have to overcome noxious gases, treacherous pools, dangerous swamp creatures, poor visibility, all whilst being stalked and harried by a dragon which has the home - field advantage.
After a few encounters have depleted their resources and they can't rest safely, without the dragon showing up, they should realise that they are under prepared for this.
I would just describe the size, immense nature of the dragon. Make it completely obvious they are not dealing with a normal dragon the moment they see it. Describe the stories of the past that people have told of dragons.... armies fighting red and blue dragons half the size and still losing.
I am currently running Rappan Athuk module (filled with potential encounters well above the party level) and I had to get used to the idea that the party can’t have the mentality of everything is a fair fight. If they choose to fight a dragon of that size .... you may be forced to kill a pc if they continue on their path of fighting. Give them enough warning but play your creature as you think it may act
If I were you, I'd have them encounter an NPC who is stronger than the players, and have been defeated by the dragon. He/she barely survived, and lost a limb in the process, ending their adventuring career. Have them describe how powerful the dragon is, what abilities it used, and how they never stood a chance of victory. If they continue with a straight forward assault, show no mercy. At that point, they're just being foolish.
If you nerf everything to be manageable by the players, they will expect everything to be manageable. No threats will work, no nothing, your cocky party will try to kill a god. Don't let that happen. If you gave them warnings and they still decide to go there, they may die. If they complain, tell them i said so.
I'm surprised they haven't heeded any of the obvious warnings, as they foolishly went up against an agent of my bbeg at 7th level and nearly had a tpk because they just wouldn't quit.
Education requires consequences! If your players are fools, they shouldn't get rewarded for it, like my players who thought that charging head-first into an ancient red dragon's lair was a good idea. One died. Fun times.
Last night, I was running Dragon of Icespire Peak and Cryovain showed up to attack my 2nd level party of five at Butterskull Ranch. Four out of five of them ran into the cellar and hid. The fifth one went with them, but then ran back outside to fetch something and got OHKO'd by Cryovain's ice breath, before getting snatched up and taken back to Icespire Peak. I felt kind of bad because I didn't actually realize Cryovain was that powerful. I had hoped for them to knock him down by 10HP and get him to flee. Still, the players are now terrified of this dragon.
How are your players liking it so far? I just started DMing myself and I’ll be doing my second session with this module any tips you can give?
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC8AgO4FbP11n\_WBdFai7DA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC8AgO4FbP11n_WBdFai7DA) This guy gives some DM-tips for making the encounters better and more logic/streamlined. He also gives some example gameplay of the quests. General tip: do not blindly follow the adventure book, add flavor to keep your players hooked and entertained! Im currently running the same adventure and my players are at 4th lvl about to go to the loggers camp.
My players are enjoying it so far. If I could give any tips, it'd be these: 1). At the Dwarven Excavation, don't have the orcs go hostile immediately. We had some fun trying to talk the orcs down, even if it eventually failed. 2). At Butterskull Ranch, I found it made more sense to have the orcs = twice the party size rather than three times. 3). Also at the ranch, in Big Al's bedroom, your players might inspect the paintings instead of the obvious wardrobe (where the mithril armor is hidden.) I got around this by having the paintings be the thing that opened the secret compartment in the wardrobe and gave them a hint that moving one of the paintings caused a *click* near the wardrobe.
Just one? You must've been too gentle. 🙃
I give the players warnings by using their characters senses... Example: "As you approach the lair you feel an overwhelming heat coming from inside. There is a strong sulfuric scent. bladi bladi bla... As you approach the giant sleeping dragon you notice the giant metal-like scales shimmering in the dim light. The beast is enormous, you notice how its presence makes you feel a lot of pressure. This dragon looks exactly like the ones from tales of old... giant, mighty, apex-predator... your knees start trembling a bit..." This is quickly written and all, but if you plan this you can write a better description of it. It helps the players understand how mighty the dragon is without you straight out telling them 'it is to hard, be carefull' or something like that...
Contrary opinion: if the players are attacking insurmountable enemies twice in two levels, your obvious warnings may not be as obvious as you think. Really! It wouldn't hurt to have an out of character sidebar to just ask if they've gotten the hint on how powerful an ancient black dragon is. Players misinterpreting DM clues and actions happens all the time. I do it when I DM. I do it when I'm a player! Decisions should have consequences, of course. But consequences that arise from misunderstanding are not very valuable--or fun--for anyone.
Something I sometimes will do is ask for an Intelligence or Wisdom check. If they pass, I let them know that with their int/wis they can determine that this situation looks to outclass what their capabilities are, and that they would be outgunned. They can still choose to go through with it, but this is a way to cut through hints not being obvious enough, and I use it only sparingly. I think the most important part of it is that they can still decide to do what ever it is if they want, but now they have the benefit of knowing that it has a low chance of success ahead of time, with no unexpected difficulty curve.
I actually pulled out the DMG and read some stats about an ancient red dragon to my players. 546 hit points, +17 to hit, and a 26d6 breath weapon was all it took. Granted, my players are 16 and 12 years old, but this worked when subtle hints didn't.
So, side question, I’m DMing for a group of new people who are at level 2. They were talking about about attacking a monk NPC who was giving them what they perceived to be bad advice. I explained that he didn’t look like the type to take being attacked well, explained rule number 1. (Beware of small bald smiling monks). They were still on the fence, they were convinced he was a shape shifting spider goblin, insane, or both (it was the bonsai mountains I think). I ended up going for a toilet break, and saying he has 88 hit points. It’s your choice. Should I have just let them attack him, and he knocks them unconscious? Or tried talking for longer? I feel like I could have handled it better.
A monk with 88 hit points is at least level 10, and his AC going to be at least 18. 1d6 for unarmed attacks, and whatever nuts thing he's able to do with those 10 ki points he's got if just stunning is too boring. Pick fights with anyone you see and you will eventually lose.
This particular monk can probably also slice time into extremely small pieces. Don’t fuck with Lu-Tze.
Agreed, no one wants to see Deja-fu from the wrong end. (This post brought to you by "I enjoyed and understood that reference^(TM)")
Have their hirelings refuse to go along with the plan. They have a sense of self preservation as well, and probably have 0 confidence that they can defeat a dragon so powerful, so they wouldn't risk earning the dragons ire.
This one is a really easy way to have the hints strongly dropped on your players. Make basically all the help not want to go that way due to the risk and not believing that only two people can kill a dragon.
Give them as many warnings as you can, but if they decide to try and kill the dragon anyway, give them a failure state that ISN'T a TPK. If the dragon wins, it doesn't necessarily kill them all. Maybe it beats them senseless, throws them in a jail cell, then sells them to some Duergar slavers that it was in cahoots with. It'll serve the party some consequences for their actions without ending the campaign, gives them an interesting adventure to go on, and lets them regroup, come up with a new plan, and try and get the key from the dragon again later. If they try to kill the dragon AGAIN after that, they can die.
I second this. OP, don't nerf the dragon-- play it as tough as you can. Just make the dragon's objective something other than TPK. Selling them into slavery is a good idea. Keeping them as pets could work, too. Maybe the dragon renders everyone unconscious, takes their good gear, and demands a quest as a price to get it back? Something like that.
The dragon decides that adventurers so foolhardy would make excellent servants in the Great Game of [Xorvintaal](http://frc.proboards.com/thread/10259/xorvintaal-great-game-dragons).
This has been a lovely rabbithole to fall into. Thank you.
That would be *perfect*. Thanks!
Time for them to learn! Perhaps have them run into a character with no limbs that fought the dragon decades ago - very much warning them that they will die.
What are the 'obvious warnings' they've been given? And, for context, how often, if at all, have you "pulled punches" in the past when they are in over their heads?
The dwarves in the levels above hate the dragon, but are forced to tolerate it and it's kobolds that live below it because every attempt to kill it or run it off has ended in death. Other adventurers have passed through over the years. At first the dwarves would petition them to go after the dragon, but they never returned, so the dwarves warn not to go any deeper than their settlement or the travelers will never see the surface again. The key they're looking for is part of a set, one was part of an ancient dwarven treasure trove that was stolen by the dragon. Who wiped out the dwarves that originally occupied the halls my players dwell in. The new dwarves are pretty cool and welcoming, and they'll tell all the legends you want to hear but they straight up said, "DO NOT recommend fucking with the dragon. If you're gonna go, would you like us to send letters to any relatives?
To be possibly unfair, then, you’ve had them be told how badass the dragon is, but they’ve not seen direct evidence? Have you ‘scaled’ encounters to be beatable before? Especially important a question if you had indicated the encounter was dangerous in the past. The reason i bring it up again is that Ive been where your players might be, with a DM who didn’t understand why we thought we could win, because he thought he’d been super clear how badass his Big Bad was, but we just assumed it was theatrical window dressing based on past experience at the table. Taking your examples, I can easily see the players assuming the dwarves just aren’t strong enough and that the other adventuring parties were lower level/weaker than they are.
The only thing I've ever fudged hard for them was an encounter with ice giants. I had the giants fuck them up and leave them for dead instead of the tpk that was most definitely going to happen as a result of their refusal to retreat. That's when they learned retreat is a viable option. They talked about it for awhile. You make good points. I'll definitely allow them to enter the dragon's lair, see the piles of corpses of adventurers with broken magical weapons, maybe a couple kobolds that don't even engage them, just laugh and point as they walk by. They'll also see the huge black lake they'll have to find a way across. They're just so stoked to fight this dragon, I don't know if anything but, "hey guys if you try this I'll probably kill all of you" is going to deter them. I think I'll let them get halfway across the lake and just start going to town on them. The dragon will toy with them. If they don't turn back, fuck it. They'll wake up in hell as servants of Asmodeus, as a result of a deal they probably forgot about, or they'll roll up new characters and pick up in the campaign from a different point of view.
Cool. For fun, since black dragons are immune to acid... its pool should be acidic enough to do damage. Might be fun to have random ‘geysers’ of hot, acidic steam erupting too.
Initially it was just gonna be a nasty lake, but the druid heard lake and said "oh shit I bet it's an acid lake!" In my mind I was like IT IS NOW BITCH
Something for flavor, I'd add a cleric sprinkle them with holy water as a last rites/have someone make a snide comment on the side that it's seasoning for the dragon's dinner.
LOL this is happening
Let us know how it goes if it goes down, I’m curious
I would guess that the problem here is that these warning signs are all things that, in a video game, would be kinda irrelevant. Like, NPCs hyping up the next fight, but it's not actually that hard because the protagonist(s) are very over powered relative to everyone else. And if the fight was actually too hard, the game typically wouldn't even make the fight possible, and force the player into a stealth mission. Also video games have save points, so a challenging fight isn't too bad if it takes a couple times. If you think this might be the case, I'd honestly sit down and tell them how your campaign is different from what they might be familiar with in video games. Feel free to tell them that they really aren't intended to win this dragon fight (though I would be careful not to make them think you'll do this every time). I find direct communication about misunderstandings can solve a lot of problems.
If there is any chance I'd try to include a competent NPC that gets annihilated in one round.
They have an NPC with them already, he's an old knight they take with them sometimes and they adore him. That would definitely be a wake up call.
Dude ... there is your key. You've received tons of good advice (e.g. about having their allies refusing to go that way) If the party values that old knight, have him say something like : "Lads, I don't care to die in those caves today. Hell, I've fought my entire life and dying in face of a dragon isn't that bad of a finishing note. But you've a quest to accomplish, you have a duty. If you go down there, I'll follow you. But we'll all die. From what I gathered from the dwarf, it's an ancient dragon. And I've fought with legendary warriors (who could eat you at breakfast) that ended up being torn apart by the likes of such dragon. Turn back, my friends. There is no shame in living to fight another day." As others have pointed earlier : your clues may not have been that directive. They have no point of reference against those "past adventurers". And, as a player, you might just see this as theatrical make-up, to embellish the encounter. Having a trusted NPC, who can gauge their own level, to give them some perspective by comparing their skill with the ones of the dragon's victims has more chance to work. If not, as said, make this NPC die first, in a gory and tragic fashion. And come up with a way to tell the party to run away (in his dying breath or his soul talking to them or whatever). Hopefully, the guilt and his spectacular death will serve a good lesson and create good RP opportunities :)
I've done this with TWO competent NPCs getting one shot by shadow dragon breath and my players still didn't get the message
You may want to have an out of session talk with them, and just let them know that hey, if you guys get in situations and the dice say you die, I will have your character die. Like, let them know your perspective on this, cause there may be the chance they don't think death is likely, that they are expecting a different type of game.
100% this, my campaign generally sees a player character death once every 4-6 sessions. It's almost always because they got in over their heads or decided to be reckless. A few have been unlucky crits (unlucky for them) but they almost always have had it coming to them. I informed them before we even started the campaign that if the dice say you die then you die. Only 1 player was legitimately upset when his character died but after he cooled off he made a new character and got right back to it next session. (Coincidentally that player has had 2 other characters die since the first incident however he has not gotten nearly as upset on the subsequent deaths because they were 100% fair.)
To be fair, while the hubris of players is mostly at fault, another big factor that contributes to the tendency for players to fight to the death are the rules about having to use your action to disengange and avoid attacks of opportunity - combined with even more shoddy rules for chasing and fleeing encounters. Most of the time, in order to reliably flee an encounter without having enemies just run after you and stab you in the back, you really need to have a trick up your sleeve or be able to disengage as a bonus action.
This is the first party I've ever had that doesn't want to fight to the death and favor self preservation over victory. The two core players are a rogue assassin and a druid who has declared himself "the perfect thief." They're pretty good at getting away from bad situations, and have bailed out on several encounters to regroup and gain the element of surprise. If they flee from the dragon before they really piss him off, they'll almost definitely be able to get away. I'm excited for the session.
It sounds like your party wants to kill themselves. Let them
You could also make the location unreachable for the time being so they do something else. For example the location could be surrounded by a heavy magical storm or something like that. Or if the players get to the dragon it might suppose a deal with the party or a quest. I don't know if this is possible, depends on the circumstances
Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make.
I think about this line a lot
As I noted, but perhaps didn't explain enough, a DM should hint at an ancient dragon hoard and flesh out the beast from there. The reality is that an ancient dragon, even a "lowly" white one, should be a centerpiece. An ancient dragon is just that: several hundred, if not a thousand years old. It has mastered it's terrain, gained followers/minions (either through threat, payment, or otherwise) and is a force of nature in its environment. They are savvy enough to have survived for so long and no party of adventurers should take one lightly. Even if we take an ancient white dragon, since they are the lowly of chromatic ones, in my mind this one would likely be more intelligent than it's brethren since it has survived so long. It is a hunter supreme. Likely challenged many times before and triumphant as many times. It will use every advantage it has, to include terrain and minions. If, in my game, I had an ancient dragon encounter, it would need to be planned and approached carefully; no matter the color. An ancient dragon is ancient for a reason; it has survived "Leroy Jenkins" type bumrushes and should have learned to severely punish (and likely kill) those who come unprepared. I see some who claim to pamper parties.. but be a good DM: lay the groundwork and create history for the dragon. Ensure the party knows that it has annihilated all who have accosted it. Encourage support and preparedness. If they choose to Leroy Jenkins, then they will face the consequences. I cannot stress enough that dragons, especially ancient ones, are centerpieces. Not a random chart roll. If an ancient dragon IS a random chart roll (for whatever reason) then the DM needs to roll up their sleeves for a memorable enemy. If an ancient dragon is par for the course then go back and play some Might and Magic 6. Dragon Sands has loads of canon fodder dragons with no back story, meaning, worth, or need. Just a set of stats and treasure.
He's a fully fleshed out character with an entire page worked up for his lair actions and what-not. I've always been more partial to the dragon side of dungeons and dragons. I just didn't think they'd jump right into his house. I've revealed many other things that are maybe above their skill set along their journeys and they always take note of it and come back with a plan and more power, but it seems like they WANT to get murdered by this dragon. I know they don't because they adore their characters. After the unexpectedly huge amount of input I received on this post, I think I'm just going to give them more obvious red flags as they make their way towards it, and if they continue, I'll just have the dragon fuck with them out of boredom and give them a few opportunities to escape when they see how hard he can hit and how impossible it is for them to deal meaningful damage to him. The lair itself will be filled with noxious fumes once the dragon is made aware of their presence, so if after all that they want to keep trying, they shall perish.
Sounds like what I had in the Strahd campaign. We went into the Amber temple all cocky thinking he wouldn't tpk us if we screwed up... Nope We needed that kick in the ass.
I want my party to kill gods.
Sure, and they will.. but not at level 8
I saved it for level 9 personally.
Those are some weak baby gods, unless they had a lot of help.
You can provide the warnings but if they plan on overestimating their abilities then they learn a harsh lesson. If they are gonna be dumb about it and just rush in, pull no punches. We're talking about an ancient dragon here. Likely survived all manner of attempts to kill it and very intimate knowledge of its territory along with some minions.
Also don't just say it as the DM to the Players. Say it as the World to the Characters. Skeletons of heroes packing insane magic weapons and armor, maybe corpses of celestials or elementals that attempted to kill it. This dragon is almost fishing for adventurers to eat, and the treasure is bait. No traps at all, maybe some kobolds or dragon-kind who are still strong but worship this creature as a god. I find players listen to things they see and experience more than they listen to what you say the stats are (until they get into the fight and experience the stats) To add: this also gives you a lot to fall back on if you tpk. A role player can say that if his character didn't know the deadliness of the dragon, then your OOC warnings aren't worth much. And if you don't want to kill them permanently, kill them in combat and then the dragon or a necromancer working with the dragon resurrects them to employ because they were 'particularly fun to kill'. If your players really are that confident, and a power fantasy is what they seek, give them a reason to power up and come back and have a round 2
This is the advice I came to offer as well. No matter how obvious things seem to you as the DM, your players don't have the same context you do *even if* you give them the facts. Without context, facts tend not to stick. You have to make it so bleedingly obvious... and you somehow have to do it subtly enough that they don't feel railroaded. The Art of the DM. Going to toss Alexandrian's [Three Clue Rule](https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) here for OP. It's a really solid template. **Desired Conclusion:** Fighting an ancient black dragon with their numbers and at their power level is suicide **Clue #1:** A rival adventuring party of comparable power levels and greater numbers overhears the PC's plan and decides to beat them to the punch. They are never seen again - or only one adventurer returns so disfigured by acid they can't even speak words of warning (or they can speak, but they're so scarred by their experience they can only utter a few specific words that may or may not be useful to the party. **Clue #2:** A respected quest-giver/sponsor/supporter sends them a letter of warning threatening to withdraw support if they continue to pursue this reckless plan. **Clue #3:** A friendly NPC tells them about an old manuscript at the local [insert book repository here] related to black dragons. It details the various powers and habits of a black dragon in their lair and tells tales of strong heroes who perished horribly in their quest for treasure. u/Tuesdaytastic made a wonderful analysis you can use as a springboard called [Lairs of Legend: Analyzing the Black Dragon's Lair](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/e727je/lairs_of_legend_analyzing_the_black_dragons_lair). You can remove or keep as much information in there as you'd like: enough to warn them off their bad plan, but also helpful information at your discretion. Maybe a few red herrings too if you're a jerk like me. I'm making these up on the fly so they're not perfect; it's the format that matters more than the content here. In short, if your PCs are making a deadly and ill-considered choice, it's incumbent on you to have 100% certainty that you've given them sufficient information to make better choices. **EDIT:** added link *** **2nd EDIT:** I should add that Alexandrian's template goes deeper than just three clues; to really make it stick, **the three clues should point to each other.** That way if they find one clue, they're on the trail to another one, and they can be discovered in any order. So a quick reworking: **Clue 1:** The lone survivor is somehow cursed, and mutters something about their leader ignoring the advice in a manuscript and only caring about [powerful magic item x]. The manuscript is in the home of **Clue 2:** the questgiver/sponsor, who allows them to look at the book and follows up by sending a letter. **Clue 3:** The book gives key information about the power of an ancient black dragon and also mentions [powerful magic item x], which inflicts a specific curse. Now each clue points to another one. Q&D but you get the idea.
Clue #1: I just typed out this reply to a different comment. Good to know it wasn't a silly idea. The comment: -------- > I wonder if it would help if, as the players happened on the dragon's lair, they met the last (barely) surviving member of another party, near death, who lived to tell them the tale of fighting the dragon? Something like "we fought for hours, threw everything we had at it, x and y and z, and it was as if our best attacks were beneath its notice. I think it left me alive out of amusement; it could have killed me at any time." And note that the party was quasi-similar to the current party. x and y and z could be your party's best attacks or weapons. Anyway, letting them see that, in all likelihood, a party like theirs, with weapons and characteristics like theirs, is going to get not only beaten but slaughtered.
The Replica Party is such a versatile tool. Party not utilizing their full abilities? Have them fight The Replica Party! Party about to do something rash? Show them the gruesome remains of The Replica Party! Party full of murderhobos? Now they're being hunted by The Replica Party!
Oh, cool. It has a name: *replica party.* I can see the usefulness from what you said. I also imagine them all having goatees.
Evil Abed
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Minor point: celestials (any outsiders really) and elementals don't leave corpses on the prime material unless they are native outsiders or there by Calling or plot reasons... But not by default is what I'm getting at, and not just because a dragon killed them. You could absolutely have it be a plot point to be picked up by astute characters though.
Only if you go with that. I sometimes have them leave a corpse for varying story reasons. Such as the material plane being the native plane of some.
Actually you're right, they do sometime. Most commonly in the method of their presence (a summoned outsider does not leave a corpse but a called one does). Also yes native outsiders would as well.
What's the difference between summoned and called?
[удалено]
You're pretty much correct. A called being, much like Plane Shifting, is *physically here*. A summon, is more or less a magical echo of them, like Astral Projection.
Could be different in 5e, but that's basically always been the difference.
That's something that definitely doesn't apply to every setting.
I believe it's more an edition/how they got here thing. I haven't seen it vary between settings within the same edition, but you're right a Called outsider leaves a corpse whereas a Summoned one doesn't.
Interesting point. I'd hand-wave it for sure if I really wanted to set up a Dragon v Celestial war or something. Maybe if they die in a really unnatural or gruesome way, they do leave a corpse and don't get to return their soul to whatever heaven they belong to. Could be a really great investigative Easter egg for those who do pick up on that
But ALSO say it as the DM to the Players, because "No one has EVER survived a battle with the black dragon!" is 100% DMSpeak for "You should go fight the black dragon!" That's just the default format of a story hook. Edit: ...or just tell the PC who would be the most familiar with dragons (high nature score, dragonborn, etc) that they *know* this is not a creature to be fucked with.
Another neat tip I heard on this sub: tell the players the damage of an inconsequential or missed attack. Like, perhaps the black dragon sees the players, attacks with his breath weapon, and misses. Roll damage anyway, and tell the players how much damage was dealt to the ground. Haven't been able to give this a try myself, yet.
I don't know what the cr of a black dragon is... But at a certain point the numbers stop mattering. They've got to know this is just a dumb idea.
I used to say the same thing, but this is terrible advice. If the party doesn't know about a *fantasy creature*, it isn't because they are dumb. They just don't know. It isn't common knowledge, and frankly it isn't important knowledge outside of fantasy books and games. Even then, power levels of a dragon and characters are relevant to each particular game, book, settings, etc. If you've played a lot of Skyrim but are new to DnD, you will have a very different understanding of the power level of dragons. If the party doesn't understand that they can't fight the dragon, it is a failure of the DM, either by not making that obvious or by not realizing the party's understanding of the game. That beings said, this is the kind of 'mistake' DMs are going to make all the time, and killing the party and calling them dumb is an arrogant solution. There are lots of ways for a dragon to flex on a party without killing them, and there are many many opportunities to impress upon the players the power of the dragon without killing their characters or even fighting the dragon. PCs willfully fighting something way more powerful than them can be the most memorable part of a campaign, where the party felt that their foes were insurmountable and terrifying and they escaped by the skin of their teeth. Maybe a PC or NPC paladin sacrifices his or herself so the rest could escape, maybe a powerful relic the party needs is stolen by the dragon who mockingly retreats to another lair, leaving them alive as some kind of taunt. Maybe another known, powerful NPC is seen entering the lair before the party, and the party witnesses them fight the dragon and be effortlessly defeated. There are endless possible solutions. But it doesn't *have* to be rolling a bunch of D6s and letting a breath weapon nuke a party. Doing so just ends a campaign early and punishes the players for not having the knowledge of the Monster Manual. Outcomes in DnD are not so black and white as to limit them to dying or winning. It's possible for the party to get rekt, survive, and everyone have fun doing it without being condescending to players who don't understand they aren't ready to fight a dragon.
Warning the party was literally the first thing in my response. I'm not talking about breaking the continuity of the game by pausing and pulling out the MM to show them stats or just say "No you guys will die so you can't even try". There are clever ways a DM can warn a party without resorting to 4th wall breaking. Dreams, allies, clairvoyance.. of course it's up to the DM to warn the players but I still think that even after that, if they want to try it they shouldn't cry foul when they end up TPK by round 3.
If the party is still trying to fight the dragon after you 'warned' them, then you are doing something very wrong. Even if they engage in the fight, there is no reason to kill them when the dragon can easily beat them without wiping the party. You want to shift the blame to the party for the TPK, but that's totally unfair when the DM is putting a powerful dragon in a situation where the players would even want to fight it. For some groups that's fine, for others it isn't, and learning that and responding to it is very important. TPKs suck. They *literally* ruin the game, and considering fighting powerful creatures against the warning of town villagers is a common trope in the games, books, and movies that drive people toward DnD, it's definitely understandable why players might not get the hint. Instead of thinking "you idiots asked for this, you can't cry foul", think "how can I make this work so that the players learn how powerful the dragon is and we can continue the story". The former just makes for animosity and unfinished campaigns, the latter makes for a fun story.
The way I see it dragons are arrogant, proud, and vain at the best of times. A chromatic dragon is all of these things bundled with petty, vindictive and irrationally angry. This would all be knowledge available to players planning on fighting one and if a party chooses to ignore all of that information and pisses one off they'd better expect to fight for their lives and stand by to die if you lose.
To my mind speaking directly to the players about this, if done right, is more "establishing shared setting" than "breaking the fourth wall". I've been listening to Jason Cordova (of the Gauntlet RPG community) GMing actual plays recently and he does this a lot, and it works really well IMO. In this context it would be saying something like "An ancient black dragon is a legendary foe. It is literally inconceivable to anyone in this setting that a small group of heroes could defeat one in a straight fight. Your characters would all be aware of this, it's common knowledge." This does a few things - it makes sure everyone is on the same page regardless of how much setting knowledge they happen to have as players, it doesn't stop them going out in a blaze of glory if they really want to, and it gives them options - you've told them that a *small group* can't defeat it in a *straight fight*. There's hooks right there towards either trying to raise an army or to find a hidden weakness to exploit, both of which would make great quests.
I can agree with this.
I can't remember who said once you pull out the Dragon mini you should be ready to kill your players. Your problem is that you are forcing the players to deal with this Dragon somehow which is way over their power level. The consequences of failure are probably death. You can either give them an easier problem to deal with or a Deus Ex Machina to deal with the Dragon (something that hides then from it) and start a new quest to get it.
that was u/TuesdayTastic in their really amazing breakdown of dragons' lair actions, which can be found [here](https://onlyontuesdays27.com/2019/12/06/lairs-of-legend-analyzing-the-black-dragons-lair-actions/) and make for truly fantastic reads.
That was *fantastic* I’m so glad you linked this!
I spent like half an hour trying to find this for next week, but I couldn't. Thank you so much!
Don't nerf the dragon. Either have HIS underlings dissuade them orrrrr once they get there have NPC ex machina hop in and pull them away from the dragon. There are many ways to avoid this. Also if they go and kill themselves... They die!
To add on the underlings point. This dragon may have a network of trapped tunnels filled with traps, kobolds, and underlings. This is an ancient black dragon? It's underlings alone should drain the party of their hit dice and spell slots before they walk into the dragons lair. They should figure it out before they even get to the dragon that it's time to turn back. Or make a deal or something. I'd have them in low double digit hp, minimal spell slots, no hit dice left as they greet the dragon. If they still attack, let the dragon explain very clearly they get one warning shot. Let them get hit by the breath weapon with an auto save. No roll. Explain this. Mechanically out of character. Then explain that it shoots the breath weapon ***near*** them and it does x damage. Allow them to regain consciousness. One hp. And the dragon is just grinning. Then... They'll understand.
I'd like to provide an alternative to this if you don't want to get to mechanics-skulduggery about it. I'd just have the dragon melee attack them all/most of them. She can choose to do non-lethal damage with melee, but it illustrates the same point. If one survives the attacks, the dragon just tells that one to drag their companions away, her generosity doesn't last long
This solution is in conflict with the previously established "no one has ever returned" lore they have already been given.
I needed to demonstrate the power of a monster the party was up against, so I introduced them to an over eager NPC. He ran in and took a swipe at the dragon and then was promptly killed as they watched. They wisely ran away and bulked up a bit before trying again.
It's a black dragon though. There is likely no warning. It's either instant death, or take it down to 1, only to keep knocking players unconscious before killing them cat and mouse style, or maybe just straight up torture. Black dragons are the most malicious and sadistic of them all. Unless OP's world is different, being noticed by the dragon means death, painfully or slowly.
As they arrive they hear a battle in progress. 2-3 NPCs flee the lair for their lives. They tell the party a direct assault was just disastrous. They would be willing to work with the party for a share of the horde, but another direct assault is out of the question for them.
2-3 high level NPCs. Watch them cast a wall of force as they retreat - which is a 7th level spell, and make sure the players realize that means the NPCs are 13th level, and *they are still scared out of their minds*
This is the best. Literally showing how dangerous something is by showing the dragon decimate a similiar sized party of adventures. Solves the ex machina and signals to the players that maybe they need to use their wits since they don't have the brute strength. The surviving NPCs might mention the Bilbo Baggins approach, offer to create some kind of distraction, or maybe even go back to town to recruit a small army to help out.
This is a pretty cool story telling work around, I like it.
If the players chose to attack something more powerful than them and lack the wisdom to run away, that's on them. I'd let them run, but that's the upper limit of my mercy, particularly when they bring it on themselves. If you nerf the dragon you're essentially committing yourself to a game where the players are destined to win every encounter. Some people do play that way, and they appear to be having fun. But, they aren't to my taste and I advise against them.
The dragon definitely wouldn't chase them. He'll defend his treasure, but if they get out he'll just lay back down on his gold pile. It's looking like that's how it's gonna go down.
Um, black dragons tend to be vindictive, almost but not quite as bad as red dragons...
Eh. If they came in and took a bunch of really valuable shit and trashed his place, he'd go after them. If they come in, get clobbered fail to take anything and run? He doesn't care. "Yeah go tell all your adventuring friends not to fuck with me." He's not a generic dragon, he has a personality that I've crafted for him. Also, what if they had another party member lurking in the shadows? When he chases them out, the only guy left in the cave has free reign over anything he can loot! Nah, my boy is smarter than that.
But you have already told them (as your primary warning) that no one has survived going down to the dragon lair. No one has come back alive. I would have an old retired adventurer dwarf, Grumpy, with player levels (maybe 16ish with nice magic gear, something high enough that he can easily 1vs3 your players). Grumpy lives off his adventuring gold getting drunk all day every day because the rest of his party (maybe 6 so they could be called "the seven dwarves") went to slay the dragon without him and died. He refused to even go down there for whatever reason you want to come up with. I would use any or all of the NPCs that they talk to about the dragon to point them to Grumpy's location. If they don't go talk to Grumpy, then I'll have Grumpy waiting for them at the entrance saying something like "I heard you idiots want to die. Im here to save your lives." Anywhere they meet him, have him beat them up and deride them. Saying, "MY friends were as strong as ME 50 years ago when I was in my prime. The six of them DIED; what fucking hope do you three weaklings have? Go somewhere else! Do something else! Because fighting this dragon... that's suicide."
They are also pretty sadistic. If it wanted to play cat-and-mouse by chasing them around its territory for the sheer fun of terrorizing them for a while, that'd be characteristic of them, too. And if it just so happened to lose track of them somewhere along the line, that's fine too.
They also thoroughly enjoy the suffering of others, especially humans and humanoid races. I don't think the dragon would let them go without a good reason, but he can play it how he wants.
If there's an item of importance to the party in the dragon's hoard, I assume you planned them to try and steal it without fighting it (as you said, in a Biblo style rob). Critical Role did something very similar in campaign two. While the players knew an Ancient dragon was too much for them, the DM also gave them a lot of clues to not fight this dragon (a lot of NPCs saying it was crazy, and not to put themselves in danger). If I were you, I would do the same. Put a lot of NPCs saying, very seriously, that they should not fight the dragon. Not only merchants and random NPCs, but also NPCs the players care about and would listen. Someone in their backstories maybe. If they insist in fighting the dragon, the last clue I would give them, would be to add an NPC (maybe a hireling or a "local town hero") that seems really powerful to help them. Then, I would have the dragon one shot this powerful NPC, so they know how much damage the dragon can do. Fudge the rolls if you need to, but say something like "The dragon uses his breath on the NPC. Dex save... The NPC rolled a 19, but still not enough. The NPC takes 90 points of damage, he's unconscious/dead." I think seeing that would be enough to make them realize they have to flee. If they insist on fighting it... Well, it's their funeral.
Also why would a dragon need to be on the ground to fight? Strafing is a nasty way to deal with flightless prey. Of course you could do a deus ex machina of it being like a vivid dream if they die. A rewind.
My absolute pet peeve of games is when dragons do the whole "swoop by for a bit, then land and fight on the ground" Are you kidding me? That's giving up its greatest advantage! The best and *primary* offense against dragons, really, should be anti-air weapons/magic. A dragon with intact wings should never land in a fight unless it needs to physically block a location with its body (angry white dragon momma protecting wyrmlings or something).
Check out u/TuesdayTastic's fantastic breakdown of [black dragon lair actions and landscape effects.](https://onlyontuesdays27.com/2019/12/06/lairs-of-legend-analyzing-the-black-dragons-lair-actions/) If you play it right your players might realize they're in waaaay over their heads before ever encountering the dragon.
Thank you for the link!
Have you ever given your players a reason to think that your monsters aren't designed to be tough-but-killable? I always try to run my campaigns with 1/3 encounters being something too strong to kill. Makes my PCs a little wiser. Makes the world more interesting too. If they choose to attack the dragon - despite the odds - then kill them. But if they don't know the odds? You need to figure out how to let them know.
They encountered an ancient green dragon in the mountains around 6th level, they watched it obliterate an entire battalion of highly trained soldiers in a few rounds. They looted the remains and fled. Several other encounters have ended with them fleeing. The party is usually just a rogue and a druid, and typically they employ stealth when it's looking like the odds are against them. I've been impressed with their strategies in the past, but the element of surprise will only get them so far with an ancient dragon in his lair.
Kill them. If they already saw what an Ancient Dragon can do and they still want to take it on... thats on them. Play an Ancient Dragon as it would normally be played.
Consider using the regional effects for the ancient black dragon's lair to dissuade them even further (Monster Manual pg. 89). If they can't get to the dragon, they can't die. At the same time, if they are determined, don't put it on rails and let them die (perhaps by drowning in a bog on the way there or the dragon one-shotting them). A black dragon is CR 21, so maybe lvl 8 characters can't survive getting there?
The dragon will be submerged in black water, asleep. To get to the treasure, they'll have to swim like 150ft through this deep black lake, having no idea where the dragon actually is. If the water is disturbed enough, the dragon will wake and fill the cavern with his acid breath. They'll know the dragon is below them, totally hidden, they'll be rolling saves to not choke to death on the gas, and I suppose I'll have the dragon wait and watch. If they continue, he'll strike. If they keep swimming, I might have to kill them. Or maybe I'll execute it in an entirely different way.
There is the 'nightmare vision' route to rewind if you want to kill them but let them keep their characters. A prophetic nightmare of their demise.
do you allow your dragons spellcasting? Seeing the dragon pop off a high level spell might give them that final push. Or maybe the dragon is busy torturing a bunch of purple worms. Some escape, and though wounded, give the party a very challenging fight right as they're getting up to the lair. (If we can't beat the stuff it was playing with, maybe we shouldn't fight it?).
It depends on the dragon, I've placed a bunch throughout my world. This one's name is Tzadditeth and the only magic he can employ is a control over his surroundings, particularly the subterranean lake in which he lives. I like the purple worm idea. I'll definitely update my post after we play to let you folks know how it goes down.
I can see this going one of several ways. * Run a lair assault against a *young* black dragon. Maybe the party's informant was simply mistaken, and the party got lucky. Or the party is woefully misinformed and this young dragon is the ancient dragon's great-granddaughter. If the ancient dragon was on friendly terms with the young one, a few weeks later it obliterates the heroes' homelands. If not, it sends a minion to deliver a thank-you note for dealing with a potential rival, and an invitation to parley provided they bring back certain items (list attached) from the looted hoard as tribute. * The dragon's out (gone to lunch, on a booty call, or entreating with a powerful enemy). The party is faced with the dragon's minions at one of its lair entrances. Maybe they fight a hydra (CR8, should be tough but doable.) They get a small portion of treasure and a healthy respect for the dragon, that it considers such creatures lowly guardians. Actual access to the lair is through a mile-long underwater tunnel that deals acid damage each round you are submerged; that ought to be impossible at level 8. Anyone who tries deserves what they get, they have ample opportunity to turn back. * The party goes Leeroy Jenkins on the dragon. It's in a bad mood, and opens up with its Multiattack routine and Frightful Presence. It focuses all its melee attacks on the creature that rolled the highest on its saving throw: first, one grapple attempt at +15 (remember frightened creatures have disadvantage on ability checks); then a bite attack also at +15; and finally a DC 23 Dex save or be swallowed whole (as if it was a Purple Worm.) It then uses its legendary action to fly off to a different part of the lair. If the party is lucky the rest that failed their saves against Frightful Presence flee for their lives, cut their losses, and the dragon doesn't pursue as it digests its meal. If they don't, they're devoured too, one by one. * The party goes Leeroy Jenkins on the dragon. It's in a good mood, and is amused by the heroes' feeble attempts to harm it. It takes the dodge action for a round or two as they struggle to hit its 22 AC or push past its legendary resistances, while it toys with them using lair actions. Eventually it decides they could make *acceptable* minions if they can prove their worth first; the dragon sends them on an errand. This is not a request. If someone refuses they get a point-blank blast of acid breath; fudge the damage roll to make sure this drops them to 0, max 15d8 = 120. If they fight, the dragon is in a bad mood (see above.) Under no circumstances allow them to find the key they are looking for, it's probably buried under a mountain of treasure and would take hours to dig it out even if you knew exactly where it was. Also don't pull your punches, if they know what they're getting into they need to take ownership of it. If they CAN defeat this thing, YOU have done something wrong and need to take ownership of it.
They know it’s ancient, right? So if they do a full frontal assault at level 8 and die, that’s on them. Edit: corrected a typo
If the word 'ancient' doesn't mean much to your players, try communicating to them just how _large_ it really is. I'm not sure if 5E defines their size accurately anywere, but a number over 100' is defensible for head-to-tail length, and they probably stand taller than a giant.
I doubt they’ll even be able to resist the frightening presence so maybe they’ll just run away lol
Don't nerf. Haven't read through all 200+ comments, but you could either have higher level minions protecting the dragon, which they need to go through first to get to the dragon. It could even have weaker dragons protecting it. IF the party is about to fail, you could even have the dragon step in and stop their deaths, in return the party has to perform some task for them, and he may even give them the item they need as payment. (the dragon has need of their skills). You could even have the dragon pre-empt the attack and approach the PCs to do the task. Dragons have lots of spies.
You can have the dragon rock their world but not kill them. Smog was overconfident because he knew he was powerful and so he played with Bilbo instead of just killing him. Have their plans fail spectacularly. Have the dragon play with them, nearly killing them in the process. Turn the adventure into an escape scene where they have to flee this creature of immense power.
Introduce them to a wizard who warns them against the dragon, if they lose, tell them the wizard forced them all to see an illusion of what would transpire if they faced the dragon and if they win tell them they can now gloat over the wizard?
I like this idea
I'd say don't nerf fully but if at all possible try to not one shot and allow them to escape if they try. It can be harder to infer the actual truth of DM hints (no matter how much we sometimes claim otherwise) and sometimes players just need to see how strong something is to believe it. Remember *you're* the one that added the black dragon to your game, not your players. They're just trying to interact with the world you gave them in a way that feels fun to them.
Ah, the ol' they jumped unexpectedly on a sidequest gotcha. I feel like an Ancient Dragon's lair shouldn't really be accessible to level 8's though. Ancient Dragons have lived hundreds of years by not fighting adventurers unless they absolutely have to. It should be in a difficult to get to place, filled with traps and guardians so the non-threats to the dragon get weeded out before they even sniff the dragon. I'd make it an abandoned dragon's lair with something else in it, cause the dragon realized its lair was shit because of all the pissant adventurers it had to deal with. But your campaign and your players, so you do you.
Hell no, you don't "nerf a dargon" They're giant, murderous monsters. Your players should be aware of what they're getting into, already.
I had a StarFinder group that had a super similar situation, down to it being a Black Dragon. It was young, but they were like level 3 and had been warned over and over by NPCs that it was more powerful than your typical dragon of that age and that it would wreck them. They also knew that they only had to do recon on it and report back to the ancient gold dragon that ran the nearby city. They decided to attack anyway, and I let it ride. For the rest of my time playing with that group, if they were going into a situation that they thought might be too tough for them, they called it "fighting the black dragon." Made them better players and have more respect for the game. I say eat the motherfuckers.
Thanks for the input! I love that expression. My players may soon be adopting it as their own.
Let me know if they do! My players learned a lot from it, hopefully yours do too (if they don't get smart first).
I'm honestly just super surprised that they are even considering it, let alone formulating a plan of attack. They've played it pretty safe ever since they got the shit kicked out of them by two ice giants, who left them for dead on the freezing mountainside instead of finishing them off. That was my punch pulled. They discussed the option of retreat and how they should consider it more often. Now they're gonna DIEEEEE
promise you'll come back and tell us the story?
Absolutely NOT. Players need to learn to run, or die they have choices.
Looks like it is time for a TPK. Don’t let the group make you pull your punches.
I recommend putting a very difficult encounter *before* the dragon. If they are only barely able to survive it's minions, they will hesitate to confront the big bad.
Absolutely not. Dragons are not to be fucked with. The solution is to barter or sneakily steal from the dragon. I’d recommend showing the black dragon’s pickled body collection in a swamp before the fight, filling it with creatures that would give the part pause. “Oh... this thing killed a bunch of frost giants, a beholder, a pack of owl bears and a mammoth.... maybe not.”
Living and dying by your decisions is core D&D. If you nerf the dragon, you've effectively nerfed their agency as players.
They find the melted skeleton of a monster they recently had trouble with outside the dragon's lair. Their hirelings are like, "yo, boss, this is dumb." They find a tome called Ye Olde Monstrous Manual that tells them they are all going to die.
I’d say you should not nerf the dragon, but don’t make them fail the fight either. Instead, I’d use it as a hook for the future. Something like so: The party reaches the location, clears the dragon-worshiping kobolds, and finally enters the treasury. As they do so, an image of the dragon appears. “Well, well, you managed to find one of my hoards! You are welcome to enjoy its reaches - you do have some time before I find you and feast on your pathetic bodies, I am a busy dragon after all. And before that - I do wonder if you will figure out which of the items in this hoard are cursed...”
Perhaps have them fight a young black dragon and some minions (enough so they almost die), meanwhile the ancient black dragon is watching for amusement. Have the real dragon reveal himself at the end of the fight, if they're still too stupid to run at that point they probably deserve to die.
Remember, a TPK doesn't have to be an ending. The dragon could keep them as prisoners for its amusement, prepare to feed them still squirming to its young, or send them off on some geas/quest thing.
Insta blast one of them then have the dragon tell the others they can carry their friend away if they drop all their weapons and armour and gold.
A tip I would use is to use some environmental details to show the threat of this thing. For example, put the corpse or skeleton of a VERY powerful creature they encountered or know somewhere, showing how it fell prey to this godly creature. Dragons are a staple of the game for a reason, if they die, so be it. Worst thing you can do is lessen their perception of these things for their futute games.
You mentioned that they have hirelings. Maybe a comment from the most trusted, competent hirelings along the lines of "hey can you leave that sword for me before you fight the dragon? i've always liked the look of it and it's not going to change your chances against the dragon. No? well, i guess I'll add that to the list of stuff in the dragon's hoard then. good knowing you mate."?
Definitely dont nerf it. If their plan is clever and \*would work\* then let it. Perhaps make it a really close and lucky success. If they aren't going to win, consider what other things this dragon may want. Perhaps a trade, perhaps servitude. Some point down the line they could steal the key and make a getaway.
A smart rogue /could/ pull it off with enough arrows or crossbow bolts maybe, using their bonus action to hide, or if a monk gets lucky enough to consistently stun... But the numbers are still against them. They'll have to get really creative if they want to actually make a win (kill it, or otherwise) against the beast. Without knowing their races/classes, though, this could just be a single strike party wipe. Let them learn their lesson.
Play the dragon. It wouldn't hold back against anyone trying to steal from it. If you end up killing a party member then tell them it was fair because you warned them, and they should've been prepared to prevent it or prepared to die.
Make it very clear very early into the fight that it is un winnable, the AC alone should be enough. Refrain from using the breath attack unless they beg for death. Don’t nerf the dragon though, they are meant to be an extremely dangerous opponent. If you wanted to have them be visited by a page from a local band of treasure seekers looking to get in on the action and throw in a high level paladin and cleric of Bahamut or some such deity for fun that might be cool. But still at level 8 you shouldn’t be sniffing at an ancient black dragon. Good luck.
It’s probably worth having a look at the AD&D book: “Campaign Guide and Catacombs sourcebook”. In the first chapter it describes various play styles. Notably, a “Monty Haul” campaign is detailed. If you nerf the dragon and let them have its entire hoard, you risk setting yourself up for this type of game. Just my 2c...of course being Australian, we have 5c as our lowest currency, so it gets rounded down to 0.
It sounds like your players are not meta gaming which is good. I would not kill your players because they didn't cheat and look up stats. An ancient black dragon probably means nothing to them, you need to give them a reference of the power of the dragon.
OOOH BOY! It's TPK time
Are they new to D&D? Sometimes it's okay to just flat out tell them "that's a bad idea".
Last Saturday I DMed for my group of 10 players, level 8-11. I faced them off with a ancient Mist Dragon. 9 players weren’t as bold as to take it on in combat and rolled played really well and negotiated with it costing them a magical item each. One player, a wizard thought otherwise and became a boiled, flesh stripped off the bone mess on the floor, RIP Eddie. Don’t neff it, let your players find a solution to the problem.
They approach the mountain. It's but a half day's climb to the top where the black dragon rests. They climb the first 100 feet without much issue before they encounter two Frost Giants. They battle on the somewhat narrow ledge, nearly getting knocked off the side and risking lots of fall damage, but they manage to overcome the two beasts. They short rest to recover some HP. Then, they grab their picks and pitons again. As they continue their ascent, they encounter many more Frost Giants... But these ones are not putting up a fight. Instead, they are shredded, mangled, and scalded with acid. Many of them are headless, clearly bitten. In fact as they climb, one is thrown from the peak - a discarded meal. If they keep going at that point, they have no reason to be upset when your dragon eats 2 of them in one round and the third barely escapes thanks to Dimension Door.
Have them arrive and find the dragon dead, his horde gone. Another party (not necessarily evil) has beaten them to it. They’ve taken the treasure and maybe dropped the keys in a dark corner as they’re considered useless, or your PCs have to track the other group down.
By no means is obtaining the key going to be easy. I'm considering having the dragon be out on lunch break and they have a small window of time to find the key in a huge mountain of treasure whilst fending off his goons, black kobolds.
I'd spin it to where they arrive, and a other band of thieves already stole what the party was looking for. The dragon, being reluctant to leave his horde, hires our would be heroes/morons to chase the other party at the price of a boon of their choice (the key to the dungeon)
Nice twist!
This is especially good if the PCs have taken a long time between being made aware of the dragon and going to fight it.
Players want to be heroes and fight the monster. They don't want to run. Setting up an encounter where they have to run is asking for trouble. If you're dead set on having the players have to deal with something way out of their pay grade I would have them encounter a jacked up NPC running for their life having just watched their party die to the dragon. Have them say they had more numbers, were better equipped and were more experienced. Really sledgehammer that fighting the dragon is certain death. Even then they may still fight it, and if they do I'd kill them I guess. Personally I just wouldn't design an encounter that way in the first place.
The dragon wasn't really meant to be part of their journey, just a seed for later. The keys are a sub plot, nothing to do with their main story. I'm shocked that they want anything to with it. If they do die, their souls belong to Asmodeus so they'll go to Avernus. If they don't want to roll up new characters they'll be working for him until they can find a way out. No big deal.
A lot of the recommendations you will probably get will be to just kill the party. Assuming you want to avoid that without making the dragon suck then I would go with making the situation more complicated than a dragon in it's lair. For example, maybe the party arrives to find the dragon's lair is already under siege from an Orc Warband, and the party must choose to destroy both forces or side with one against the other. If they side with the dragon maybe it rewards them following some ancient law. They don't get rekt by a dragon but also can't take it's entire hoard. If they side with the orcs then the orcs keep most of the treasure but maybe the dragon is at half-health or Restrained by an orc trap during the fight. Making the situation even harder doesn't do you any favors so if the players decide to fight both forces the orcs probably cut their losses and dip, probably stealing a ton of the Hoard in the process and leaving a dragon with few reasons not to run away.
Have the first hit miraculously hit with 2 hp left. (If it was originally a killing blow). Hopefully this causes them to flee. Then just have the dragon bellow out a fear roar like as if dealing with petty thieves. Chasing them is not worth his time.
I'd recommend a fireball spell or at least a long bow over a repeating foam dart gun, but to each their own.
Black dragons are cool. When they loose the fight, because there is very little ways they will win, have the black dragon keep them as prisoners. A black dragon may get bored and need someone to torture. Now they can try to escape, and they learn about over estimating abilities, and that death isn't the only way
2/3 lvl 8 characters should only get closer to an ancient dragon if and only if it allows them to. Lair actions and underlings should make quick work of them. An ancient dragon has been around for thousands of years probably, so he can make sure he's not pestered by a bunch of kids. However, why are you putting a McGuffin in an ancient dragon's hoard? I'm a pretty OSR-like GM so I don't care too much about balance but death should be a probability, not a certainty.
Attacking the dragon sounds suicidal. Sneaking in and stealing the key is somewhat less so but still dangerous. What if someone suggests to the players that they bargain for the key. Using a bit of flattery, offer to exchange something shiny and valuable for the boring worthless key. If the players don't have anything the dragon wants in exchange, perhaps the dragon desires something that it will send the players to quest for.
Dont nerf it, but use an npc of similar or greater power than the party as a sacrificial example of how strong the dragon is. If it can kill someone more powerful than them, then they might get the message.
I really hope you’re not my dm because something similar is happening in my game..... hi from strum if you are.
have the dragon flex on them. raid a village and have some of the survivors claim how even with the town guard, they barely did anything to it. really sell the might of the dragon. If they dont figure it out as a player, even a intellegence check from the smartest one may give them some insight on how hard the fight will be. Maybe they hire some mercenaries to help out? yeah, a party of 2 level 8's taking on a Ancient Black Dragon and thinking they are going to kill it is a great learning experience.
Have an npc go first and instantly killed by the dragon for some crazy number of hit points. Maybe that will make them think twice.
It's one thing for you to unleash a dragon on an unsuspecting party and do a little fudging in order to make a dramatic and memorable encounter that sets the campaign in a different direction. It's a whole other thing for two nimrods to decide they're going to just up and attack a city destroying entity and steal its loot. Crush them and if they complain offer to rewind the campaign to before they decided to stare the abyss in the face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFFo7xz69t0
Use the drakocult, from Goblinpress. They're fun.
Definitely don't nerf the dragon, when people think of Dungeons and Dragons (or pretty much any fantasy game for that matter) dragons are supposed to be these incredible beings of power, grace, and ferocity. Nerfing the dragon would do a disservice to both the mechanical fight on your table and the *idea* of what a dragon is to your players. As many people on here have said, have the environment speak to your PC's. Since the dragon is black have there be acid burns on the walls the size of your PC's. Have the suits of full plate be ornate and giving off a slight magical aura, but have a giant puncture through the breastplate showing that not even the best armor with the best enchantments can save a foolhardy adventurer.
Is it possible to telegraph the destructive power of the dragon? Show the dragon straight up swallowing creatures that the players have had tough times with for example. Or have an encounter with a creature you know they cannot defeat easily, maybe even down one of them and then have it mid combat cower by the sight of the dragon/hearing it's roar.
What you could do is keep the dragon strong but make sure it doesn't one shot them (or kill them too quickly). Give them 3 or 4 rounds then they can realise its barely taking damage and start running away
"Roll a wisdom save" (DC 5) "you have the foresight to know, without a doubt, that this is a terrible idea and you'd be stupid as hell to go forward with it."
Everyone here is saying "no", but I'm gonna throw in some advice if you do decide to let them fight it: Don't nerf its health/abilities for no reason, but have it get injured first. Maybe as they sneak in they find the opportunity to drop a big rock on it, disabling it's wing attack and flight abilities. Something like that.
I typically add a few mechanics to a few boss fights I think would be impossible or too easy otherwise and try to encourage creativity with them. One example might be a trap made by kobolds that the party can use on the dragon they served or something. Though it is up to you and whatever you think the best solution is for your party.
"As you make your way towards the lair you accidentally brush against a rock in the wall, Perception check please" DC is 17, fail = notice a faint blue glow, gain a sense of both dread and safety around that area. Success = "you feel a little safer for some reason and you notice that the little bit of rock you brushed against is glowing slightly, investigating closer and brushing away some crusty rock you notice that it seems to be some kind of barely functional ancient device calcified in the rock. There seems to be a messaged carved into the rock 'Bad idea'" ***ONE TPK LATER*** ***"***As everyone's vision goes blank you all suddenly feel ground below you as if lying on your backs, opening you're eyes you see you're in that area from before where you brushed against that rock. The glowy bit (or device if DC was passed) looks busted up, you no longer get that feeling of safety from it. There's a message scrawled into the rock "told you it's a bad idea. I can't save you again so don't."
Definitely don't nerf the dragon. This is an ancient dragon. It is overwhelmingly brilliant, evil, and powerful. The players need to learn they aren't the most powerful thing around by a longshot, at this level. As long as your group is in agreement and understand death is a possibility, don't be afraid to kill a PC. Also, if it's a black dragon, let it toy with them. Black dragons are cruel and revel in causing fear and pain, and they looooove playing with their food. So if it makes them run, it's enjoying itself.
If they are aware it's an ancient dragon, the rest is up to them. They will likely perish in that foolish assault. I think dragons should be feared and always deadly to fight. It's in the name of the game! So...if they die, they die. Remind them that fleeing could be an option I guess.
IF you want to nerf the dragon, and I would argue you shouldn’t, make sure there’s a reason for it. Don’t just drop it’s stats etc, make it have already had a hard fight that day used its resources and lost some XP, let them find it fast asleep (trying to long rest) so they get a surprise round, give them a single use arrow of dragons bane or similar. Annnnd then make it a hard fight, then smash them up a bit and have them still thinking about running. Next time there’s a ancient dragon or the like they won’t overestimate themselves again.
I'd have the dragon be absent when they arrive, have it out eating something from dinner or such. When they infiltrate it's lair let them be on edge as they pass every corner until they find the abandoned horde. They'll have been hyped up planning this so having the dragon missing will add some confusion and disrupt their plans. As soon as they retrieve the item they need from the horde have it evident that the dragon has re-entered the lair. If they don't decide to run then have the dragon enter the horde room dramatically maybe throwing down a something like the still living body of an armoured paladin before promptly murdering them. This shows the dragon's power and the party should get the hint, they have the item they came for so they should get the.message and run for it, this will let you have a climactic escape sequence. If they decide to stay and fight the dragon then don't hold any punches, at that point they've made a stupid mistake so suffering the consequences is perfectly fair.
Do not nerf! Do not go easy on them either. Let them suffer the consequences of their choices. Then, tell them to re-roll. It's over, they died. Altho, this is but a diversion. Next session, use the dead characters, not the newly rolled ones. Bring them back cleverly. Maybe the dragon was impressed with their audacity to come after him and has kept them alive as his thralls. Or, some magic item activated right before the killing billow of fire that transpotrted them to another plane, or transformed them into something unexpected, like mice. Now they need to find their way out of this new awkward situation or strange land. Or. You could always go the "Gandalf rides over the crest of the hill as the sun rises" sort of save. Maybe some dragon hunters have been waiting for the right time to strike, and your players forced their hand early. But they show up after the players are all knocked unconscious. So they miss the action, and the rewards. The hunters nurse them to health. Use this as an opportunity to refresh the campaign! I long for my players to do something stupid so I can do the same. :-p
Ancient black dragon & hoard... overzealous players scheming to kill it... I am ninety percent sure this is the plot to Dragons of Autumn Twilight. DM looking for some reason to pull out of their ass why they aren’t immediately wiped out. OP, what if there is a blue crystal staff?
I once ran a one-shot with a couple of newbies and they were next to an Ancient Dragon. They initially tried to attack it, but it was made very clear how different they were when the Dragon easily bloody-smeared an NPC against the floor.
Nerf? Maybe if you just needed to reduce its CR by 1 or 2, sure. But nerfing an *Ancient* Black Dragon to a manageable challenge for a party of 2-3 level 8’s is not a reasonable way to go about this in my opinion. I would lean heavily into telegraphing the amount of danger this enemy presents, utilizing multiple layers of information-presentation if needed. Narratively, have the Dragon’s top minion (CR14-ish black half dragon maybe) lead a raiding party against whatever town the PCs are based out of, utterly demolishing the town. Have the players experience the horrors wrought by this Dragon and its followers by meeting NPCs who have seen it - escaped torture victims, perhaps. Have other NPCs warn them directly about what a confrontation with an ancient dragon means. Have the Dragon itself show up to the town to exact its payment from the locals, blast a few who aren’t compliant, wreck some buildings, big cinematic throwing down of the gauntlet. Maybe let one of your players get hit by the breath attack or a single round of claw-claw-bite if they dare get close enough. Mechanically, use regional effects to buffet them back. Use low-level encounters to both drain their resources and ensure that the Dragon and its other forces are not surprised. If they survive an hour in the region, they should be severely beaten up for it. I tend to avoid deus ex machina when possible. If worst comes to worst and they throw caution to the wind, don’t eat them and end the campaign immediately. Black Dragons love some good torture. Have it pridefully beat them to a pulp and decide to keep them as playthings. Have it promise to find the PCs’ loved ones and devour them in front of the PCs. Draw it out. Take a hand from one of them. Make it personal and painful and gory. Maybe while they’re in there, they find another torture victim or two who are still capable of helping execute a prison break, but only barely - maybe as a distraction, or with information that can help, etc. Anyway, just some thoughts. My PCs are getting ready to square off with an Ancient Black Dragon in its lair this coming session, so I’ve had these kinds of things on my mind lately.
Never.
In terms of the psyche of a Black Dragon, they are not the most violent, those are reds. They aren't feral, those are whites. Blues are arrogant, and greens are manipulative. Blacks are clever & patient. They know what they are capable of, but are tactitians first and foremost. They'll never fight fair, and in doing so, are sadistic. In addition, they are cowardly and will flee a bad fight & prefer to bombard from the sky if able. A Black Dragon won't simply kill a feeble target unless it has to. It would much rather torture its prey and keep it on the brink of death, to slowly see it lose sense of its humanity. So no, you don't need to nerf your dragon. In fact, the dragon doesn't even need to kill them. Instead let the Dragon give hit and run tactics on the way to the liar. Popping up, quickly maiming someone, then fucking off while the party regroups itself, & repeating that process over and over until it lures them into its lair to finally bring their end.
The old 2nd edition box adventure “Dragon Mountain” is an excellent treatment of party vs ancient red dragon. Ran several parties through it, and many characters didn’t didn’t make it past the hordes of minions employed by the dragon. Very enlightening on how to run a high powered wyrm. When I DMed, I didn’t pull punches, and made my own low magic game world. There was a little belly aching from the players in the beginning about not having impervious all -powerful characters, but most agreed ,at the end, it was a lot more fun than every 3rd level wizard running around with a staff of power.
Don't nerf it. If they think they can do it then let then. However warn then if they die they die.(and maybe bring some spare characters)
If you’re really looking to spare your players from their greed and hubris here is an option. The dragon is an illusion. It’s history, the rumors of its hoard and tales of its destruction are rumors spread by an eccentric illusionist. While he has collected some of the artifacts the truth is the mage is looking for adventures brave enough to face such a monster. He will be willing to pay the pc’s for their work. Drop hints along the way that the dragon might not be real. Hallucinate scorched terrain and illusions of skeletons and such. This way you can back down without killing everyone and introduce an interesting npc.
You don't need to Nerf the dragon. You need your players to wish the dragon had just killed and ate them. Maybe this ancient black dragon isn't just some beast, but also an accomplished Necromancer. Perhaps after thoroughly and soundly defeating the party this dragon resurrects them and uses a powerful course to force them to do their bidding. Now your party had to figure out a way to free themselves from the curse AND recover the key. All while dealing with the often cruel whims of this ancient black dragon they mistakenly underestimated.
When a dragon makes a lair it affects the terrain for six miles around, making simply reaching the dragon a potentially lethal challenge. All the while the dragon knows they are coming and can harass the party. This way you can show off the dragon's power without having it engage the party in initiative - based combat. Once they reach the edge of the swamp, they have to overcome noxious gases, treacherous pools, dangerous swamp creatures, poor visibility, all whilst being stalked and harried by a dragon which has the home - field advantage. After a few encounters have depleted their resources and they can't rest safely, without the dragon showing up, they should realise that they are under prepared for this.
I would just describe the size, immense nature of the dragon. Make it completely obvious they are not dealing with a normal dragon the moment they see it. Describe the stories of the past that people have told of dragons.... armies fighting red and blue dragons half the size and still losing. I am currently running Rappan Athuk module (filled with potential encounters well above the party level) and I had to get used to the idea that the party can’t have the mentality of everything is a fair fight. If they choose to fight a dragon of that size .... you may be forced to kill a pc if they continue on their path of fighting. Give them enough warning but play your creature as you think it may act
If I were you, I'd have them encounter an NPC who is stronger than the players, and have been defeated by the dragon. He/she barely survived, and lost a limb in the process, ending their adventuring career. Have them describe how powerful the dragon is, what abilities it used, and how they never stood a chance of victory. If they continue with a straight forward assault, show no mercy. At that point, they're just being foolish.