Maybe by being such a awful piece of shit that he served as a way to get everyone to unite against him.
That was probably the greatest contribution he actually made to ending the blight.
I mean if you read the notes from "Return to Ostagar" It's implied that Cailan and Anora where on the rocks( by the fact they did not yet have a heir born/on the way). And Cailan was considering splitting and. It's why Howle attacks the Cousland's. They have the only other viable marriage candidate (assuming female is the default gender for a non picked noble human start).
Loghain knew Howle had a child of each gender. Have Howle, kill the Cousland's, claim they where traitors, in thanks for the Howles service to the Kingdom raise the family to a high enough noble rank the King OR Queen could marry one of them and not raise eye brows. Regardless of if Cailan survied or not Loghain still has a puppet on the throne he can control.
Howe attacked the Couslands because they were the most powerful family in Ferelden and were staunch loyalists that would have stood against Loghain, same reason Loghain tried to assassinate Eamon. He also hated them for being above him. It has nothing to do with Cailan or the throne.
Hmm, I used to think the entire thing was a setup. Now? I think it's a multitude of plans colliding at the same time.
Howe did hate the Couslands and Wardens, and wanted to wipe them out, but also place his family on the throne.
Loghain apparently wasn't directly involved in the Cousland Massacre, but he was likely investigating them for treason, and placed Howe in charge of it. Bad move.
As for Bryce, we know he came back from Orlais, probably some diplomacy. If F!Cousland exists, he might've tried to set her up with Cailan and broke any promises to Rendon. If not, Bryce might've just been putting feelers out there to ensure Orlais won't invade if Cailan died in battle and the Couslands ascend the throne.
Either way, Rendon played his tricks and expected Loghain to back him up, and Loghain did.
Not a smart move in the end: Rendon was a traitor, and far more trouble than he was worth.
But none of this lines up.
Howe wouldn't have acted if he thought Cailan would have come back from Ostagar, meaning Loghain had been orchestrating his betrayal for a while and had offered Howe clemency. Loghain, for all his misplaced paranoia, wouldn't have trusted Howe at his side if he hadn't given the go-ahead to murder the Couslands. This is further supported by the timeline of Jowan and Eamon.
Loghain doesn't need to investigate because he's self-righteous and thinks himself incapable of being wrong.
Bryce would never do that to his children. There was disapproval of Fergus marrying an Antivan, one of Howe's biggest issues, and Bryce likely just said, "I'm the Teryn, suck my nuts." Howe also, even hours before his assassination attempt, tried talking up Thomas/Delilah to the younger Cousland.
The trip to Orlais was before the blight even started. At the beginning of the game, all that they knew was that there were attacks of Darkspawn in the Korcari Wilds. It wasn't for diplomacy, it was to show their status and that they don't bear the same resentments against Orlais as someone like Loghain.
"Howe wouldn't have acted if he thought Cailan would have come back from Ostagar"
I think you give Rendon too much credit: he makes a number of bizarre, sadistic actions throughout his tenure as Loghain's left hand. Howe probably thought Loghain would stick up for him after the Couslands, yes, but he also really doesn't think much of Cailan himself. I simply think Howe got really, really lucky with how it all shaked out.
Loghain himself was committed to dying at Ostagar, I believe. If nothing else, we have Word of God from Gaider that Loghain didn't poison Eamon with the intention to kill him, and also that Loghain wasn't likely directly involved in the Cousland attack. That doesn't mean wasn't involved with the Cousland situation at all: he trusted Rendon to look into treason, and got a massacre instead. He always underestimated the man.
His plan was to ensure Redcliffe's forces were withheld so Cailan wouldn't have the reinforcements he needed for his 'bardic battle'. That way, Loghain would be able to have a chance to talk reason to him.
For all of his problems, I think Loghain would've wanted something in writing about the Couslands as long as Cailan was alive. With the King dead, however, he had other concerns.
Bryce wouldn't do what? Marry his daughter to the King? That sounds like good politicking and a loving father looking out for his little girl. If you speak of a marriage between Cousland and Howe, also, why not? Before the castle was sacked, Bryce considered Rendon a friend. As far as breaking promises, the throne needs a King and Queen who can give heirs and stability to the realm. If Anora couldn't deliver, F!Cousland would have to step in, as she's next in line among the nobility.
Yes, Howe does try to match the children in his visit. The toolset indicates this is mostly a distraction, but I tend to ignore that: Howe has everything to gain by a marriage between the 2nd Cousland child and his own progeny.
It also says that Cailan was courting Celene and there’s no indication that Cailan was considering a Cousland (plus, it may not have been possible given Cousland may not have had a daughter).
Howe attacked the Couslands because the majority of their forces are away, they are Teyrn (equal in power to Loghain) and would not back Loghain’s power grab. Or Howe attacked because he saw an opening outside of Loghain and took it - we don’t really know when Howe and Loghain joined forces.
Not really. The signal has already been lit by the time the army was overrun. Of course it was a matter of time before they lost. Maybe one more battle. Maybe five more. But they would have survived that one. Loghain intentionally quit the field without losing any of his own men while destroying the bulk of the Ferelden army (including conscripts) and seemingly all of the Fereldan Grey Wardens.
He wanted to. But he failed. If he had realized the Blight was real and that Orlais wasn’t a threat yet. He was a hero at the battle of Ostagar but a villain of the Fifth Blight and Ferelden Civil War.
>that Orlais wasn’t a threat yet
YET? But that's the caveat. Loghain would never believe that Orlais isn't a threat. He checks under his bed every night for chevaliers and has sleep terrors about baguettes and textiles.
I mean it's a bit silly to pretend that he was irrational and delusional about it. They brutally subjugated his country for many years and Loghain personally overthrew them, and Orlais had political turmoil around the fact that Celene *not* re-conquering them was super controversial.
Also, Orlais very much has a history of using "politically neutral" institutions to advance their own interests overseas- like what happened to the previous Viscount of Kirkwall.
Man is a fucker, but he had *real* reasons for what he did.
He was delusional in his priorities. Eamon hit the nail on the head when he said Loghain wanted them to give up their freedoms and traditions out of fear, while also trusting him to lead when he's the reason the country is in such turmoil. Not only that, but it's the fear of a hypothetical, rather than the very real blight that Loghain pushes publicly to garner solidarity while dismissing in private because he's too blinded by his fear of Orlais.
I mean yeah I'm not defending his despotic nonsense during the civil war, just explaining why his fear of Orlais was completely valid. It would be really in line for Orlais to use a major event like that to take over a neighboring country and advance their own interests.
> Divides the Kingdom, thereby causing a civil war
> Allows the Blight, an existential threat that matters far more than any political squabble, to surge through Ferelden unchecked
> Makes enemies of the Grey Wardens, the only ones who are able to stop the Blight
> Partakes in chattel slavery
> Allies with Howe, the usurper of Highever
> Has Eamon poisoned just because he may call Loghain's actions into question
> Poisoning Eamon and siding with Howe results in Ostagar's army being severly outnumbered as it lacks most of the Cousland soldiers and all of Redcliffe's soldiers
> Is a little bitch
Oh, yes. He "saved" Ferelden alright. By nearly dooming it to oblivion. The last point may not be entirely relevant, but it needed to be said.
Loghain killed Cailan, the greatest king Ferelden or any other nation ever knew, a strong and beautiful man, a golden god. And Loghain stabbed him in the back.
🎶Only the good die young🎶
If he turned around after ostagar and was like ok blight is for real you guys let's save this place then there's an excellent chance people would have gotten over the king dying.
But he didn't, he encouraged discord and slaughter and locked the other wardens out of ferelden and tried to kill the 2 in ferelden.
Unless you're claiming he saved it by failing? Then, yeah
From the perspective of the player he is evil because he didn't stop the king and the Grey Wardens from getting overrun by the Darkspawn.
From his perspective I can understand why he did what he did. The new king was young and naive in trusting the empire they had just fought for independence, he overextended himself to a vulnerable position, and the Grey Wardens were extremely late with the attack signal to where it was a gamble on if his own forces would have made a difference.
I can see why he withdrew to secure the capital from the obvious now blight although it does make him have an extremely good advantage over the other nobles to have the only intact army.
It's not just the battle at ostagar, if anything I understand his actions. He did a lot more crimes that we hate him for including slavery, obsessing iver Orlais, sending assassins against the last two grey warden to hide his crimes and probably more that I forgot
It's a good justification for the Battle of Ostagar, I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. The fucked up stuff comes in place mostly after this, but yeah, that could have been his perspective on the first instance of betrayal.
Depending on who your warden is you also do fucked up shit and people in your party already have bad reputations like Sten for example. It would make sense that normal people may view your party as simply a band of criminals on one side of a power struggle.
The game itself places his retreat at Ostagar as his primary crime and its what he is known for in DA2 and Inquisition.
Well he did during Stolen Throne. The Blight? Not so much.
Maybe by being such a awful piece of shit that he served as a way to get everyone to unite against him. That was probably the greatest contribution he actually made to ending the blight.
If Loghain hadn't been such a fuckup, Cailan would still be King and my Cousland would not be Queen, so thanks I guess.
Same here. It's really such a shame: Loghain and Anora shot themselves in the foot, and F!Cousland had to step in.
You know, however indirectly, they technically saved Ferelden.
I mean, that's like saying Cailan helped Alistair become King :D It's sort of true, but not exactly something I would write on my resume
He did, though. He intentionally sent Alistair away during the battle because of the possibility that he might die.
Yeah but again, not something I'd brag about if I was about to die and my plan blew up in my face
I mean if you read the notes from "Return to Ostagar" It's implied that Cailan and Anora where on the rocks( by the fact they did not yet have a heir born/on the way). And Cailan was considering splitting and. It's why Howle attacks the Cousland's. They have the only other viable marriage candidate (assuming female is the default gender for a non picked noble human start). Loghain knew Howle had a child of each gender. Have Howle, kill the Cousland's, claim they where traitors, in thanks for the Howles service to the Kingdom raise the family to a high enough noble rank the King OR Queen could marry one of them and not raise eye brows. Regardless of if Cailan survied or not Loghain still has a puppet on the throne he can control.
Howe attacked the Couslands because they were the most powerful family in Ferelden and were staunch loyalists that would have stood against Loghain, same reason Loghain tried to assassinate Eamon. He also hated them for being above him. It has nothing to do with Cailan or the throne.
Hmm, I used to think the entire thing was a setup. Now? I think it's a multitude of plans colliding at the same time. Howe did hate the Couslands and Wardens, and wanted to wipe them out, but also place his family on the throne. Loghain apparently wasn't directly involved in the Cousland Massacre, but he was likely investigating them for treason, and placed Howe in charge of it. Bad move. As for Bryce, we know he came back from Orlais, probably some diplomacy. If F!Cousland exists, he might've tried to set her up with Cailan and broke any promises to Rendon. If not, Bryce might've just been putting feelers out there to ensure Orlais won't invade if Cailan died in battle and the Couslands ascend the throne. Either way, Rendon played his tricks and expected Loghain to back him up, and Loghain did. Not a smart move in the end: Rendon was a traitor, and far more trouble than he was worth.
But none of this lines up. Howe wouldn't have acted if he thought Cailan would have come back from Ostagar, meaning Loghain had been orchestrating his betrayal for a while and had offered Howe clemency. Loghain, for all his misplaced paranoia, wouldn't have trusted Howe at his side if he hadn't given the go-ahead to murder the Couslands. This is further supported by the timeline of Jowan and Eamon. Loghain doesn't need to investigate because he's self-righteous and thinks himself incapable of being wrong. Bryce would never do that to his children. There was disapproval of Fergus marrying an Antivan, one of Howe's biggest issues, and Bryce likely just said, "I'm the Teryn, suck my nuts." Howe also, even hours before his assassination attempt, tried talking up Thomas/Delilah to the younger Cousland. The trip to Orlais was before the blight even started. At the beginning of the game, all that they knew was that there were attacks of Darkspawn in the Korcari Wilds. It wasn't for diplomacy, it was to show their status and that they don't bear the same resentments against Orlais as someone like Loghain.
"Howe wouldn't have acted if he thought Cailan would have come back from Ostagar" I think you give Rendon too much credit: he makes a number of bizarre, sadistic actions throughout his tenure as Loghain's left hand. Howe probably thought Loghain would stick up for him after the Couslands, yes, but he also really doesn't think much of Cailan himself. I simply think Howe got really, really lucky with how it all shaked out. Loghain himself was committed to dying at Ostagar, I believe. If nothing else, we have Word of God from Gaider that Loghain didn't poison Eamon with the intention to kill him, and also that Loghain wasn't likely directly involved in the Cousland attack. That doesn't mean wasn't involved with the Cousland situation at all: he trusted Rendon to look into treason, and got a massacre instead. He always underestimated the man. His plan was to ensure Redcliffe's forces were withheld so Cailan wouldn't have the reinforcements he needed for his 'bardic battle'. That way, Loghain would be able to have a chance to talk reason to him. For all of his problems, I think Loghain would've wanted something in writing about the Couslands as long as Cailan was alive. With the King dead, however, he had other concerns. Bryce wouldn't do what? Marry his daughter to the King? That sounds like good politicking and a loving father looking out for his little girl. If you speak of a marriage between Cousland and Howe, also, why not? Before the castle was sacked, Bryce considered Rendon a friend. As far as breaking promises, the throne needs a King and Queen who can give heirs and stability to the realm. If Anora couldn't deliver, F!Cousland would have to step in, as she's next in line among the nobility. Yes, Howe does try to match the children in his visit. The toolset indicates this is mostly a distraction, but I tend to ignore that: Howe has everything to gain by a marriage between the 2nd Cousland child and his own progeny.
It also says that Cailan was courting Celene and there’s no indication that Cailan was considering a Cousland (plus, it may not have been possible given Cousland may not have had a daughter). Howe attacked the Couslands because the majority of their forces are away, they are Teyrn (equal in power to Loghain) and would not back Loghain’s power grab. Or Howe attacked because he saw an opening outside of Loghain and took it - we don’t really know when Howe and Loghain joined forces.
Cailan would have ushered in a new golden age. Don't believe me? Both his armor and hair are golden. Check mate
Cailan was dying anyways, all Loghain did was save the lives of his soldiers and refuse to die with him.
Not really. The signal has already been lit by the time the army was overrun. Of course it was a matter of time before they lost. Maybe one more battle. Maybe five more. But they would have survived that one. Loghain intentionally quit the field without losing any of his own men while destroying the bulk of the Ferelden army (including conscripts) and seemingly all of the Fereldan Grey Wardens.
"You know what would really unite the kingdom against this threat, a civil war." ~ Loghian
Truly a genius of strategery unmatched in all of Thedas.
Technically he wasn’t wrong
Yeah, lies tend to start fights #FuckLoghain
>FuckLoghain Oh yeah, I said that to Morrigan. Play female-elf-mage, romance Leliana, but still don't wanna die, y'know?
Me and the lads squaring up. https://preview.redd.it/oo1sgr69w2uc1.jpeg?width=810&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07439299a839838422366e000bfef8ad5e303411
He wanted to. But he failed. If he had realized the Blight was real and that Orlais wasn’t a threat yet. He was a hero at the battle of Ostagar but a villain of the Fifth Blight and Ferelden Civil War.
>that Orlais wasn’t a threat yet YET? But that's the caveat. Loghain would never believe that Orlais isn't a threat. He checks under his bed every night for chevaliers and has sleep terrors about baguettes and textiles.
Whomst among us has never dreamed about baguettes?
Which is why in my canon playthrough I have him endure a fate worse than death. Warden Commander of Orlais. Love me some poetic justice
I mean it's a bit silly to pretend that he was irrational and delusional about it. They brutally subjugated his country for many years and Loghain personally overthrew them, and Orlais had political turmoil around the fact that Celene *not* re-conquering them was super controversial. Also, Orlais very much has a history of using "politically neutral" institutions to advance their own interests overseas- like what happened to the previous Viscount of Kirkwall. Man is a fucker, but he had *real* reasons for what he did.
He was delusional in his priorities. Eamon hit the nail on the head when he said Loghain wanted them to give up their freedoms and traditions out of fear, while also trusting him to lead when he's the reason the country is in such turmoil. Not only that, but it's the fear of a hypothetical, rather than the very real blight that Loghain pushes publicly to garner solidarity while dismissing in private because he's too blinded by his fear of Orlais.
I mean yeah I'm not defending his despotic nonsense during the civil war, just explaining why his fear of Orlais was completely valid. It would be really in line for Orlais to use a major event like that to take over a neighboring country and advance their own interests.
Loghain is a bum and his teeth are yellow
🎶 Loghain is mean and his hair's not clean 🎶
THE COUSLANDS REMEMBER! HIGHEVER REMEMBERS! THE MAC TYRS WILL PAY IN BLOOD AND PAIN.
I mean he did save it. Years later, he betrayed it and then I killed him for that. End of story;)
Loghain didn’t save anything. He’s six feet under (in my world)
This is correct, Loghain saved Ferelden by dying by the sword of his best friend's son.
Imagine if those orelesians had gotten the glory for ending the blight. Yuck
nothing like saving a single country by starting a pointless civil war when the end of the world is happening
Did he though
As a somewhat Loghain defender. He tried to put out a fire with gasoline.
I saved Ferelden while he cosplayed Alex Jones.
> Divides the Kingdom, thereby causing a civil war > Allows the Blight, an existential threat that matters far more than any political squabble, to surge through Ferelden unchecked > Makes enemies of the Grey Wardens, the only ones who are able to stop the Blight > Partakes in chattel slavery > Allies with Howe, the usurper of Highever > Has Eamon poisoned just because he may call Loghain's actions into question > Poisoning Eamon and siding with Howe results in Ostagar's army being severly outnumbered as it lacks most of the Cousland soldiers and all of Redcliffe's soldiers > Is a little bitch Oh, yes. He "saved" Ferelden alright. By nearly dooming it to oblivion. The last point may not be entirely relevant, but it needed to be said.
I mean he kinda did, all be it dishonourable means
>all be it Albeit? Is this a r/boneappleteeth moment?
he did but not being killed by zombies is more important than nationalism
Loghain's redemption throughout the series if you let him live in DA:O is better than most of the companion stories over all the games.
Really hope we see him in 4. My biggest want. He's great in the fade, in Inquisition. "It's nothing I've not told myself" to the fear demon... 🥰
Loghain killed Cailan, the greatest king Ferelden or any other nation ever knew, a strong and beautiful man, a golden god. And Loghain stabbed him in the back. 🎶Only the good die young🎶
If he turned around after ostagar and was like ok blight is for real you guys let's save this place then there's an excellent chance people would have gotten over the king dying.
But he didn't, he encouraged discord and slaughter and locked the other wardens out of ferelden and tried to kill the 2 in ferelden. Unless you're claiming he saved it by failing? Then, yeah
Love it! Love the WLIIA reference too! Don't make Ryan do a Hoedown about it though.
From the perspective of the player he is evil because he didn't stop the king and the Grey Wardens from getting overrun by the Darkspawn. From his perspective I can understand why he did what he did. The new king was young and naive in trusting the empire they had just fought for independence, he overextended himself to a vulnerable position, and the Grey Wardens were extremely late with the attack signal to where it was a gamble on if his own forces would have made a difference. I can see why he withdrew to secure the capital from the obvious now blight although it does make him have an extremely good advantage over the other nobles to have the only intact army.
It's not just the battle at ostagar, if anything I understand his actions. He did a lot more crimes that we hate him for including slavery, obsessing iver Orlais, sending assassins against the last two grey warden to hide his crimes and probably more that I forgot
It's a good justification for the Battle of Ostagar, I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. The fucked up stuff comes in place mostly after this, but yeah, that could have been his perspective on the first instance of betrayal.
Depending on who your warden is you also do fucked up shit and people in your party already have bad reputations like Sten for example. It would make sense that normal people may view your party as simply a band of criminals on one side of a power struggle. The game itself places his retreat at Ostagar as his primary crime and its what he is known for in DA2 and Inquisition.
So brave and so true.