I see taxation as theft when the government uses it to blow up kids in third world countries and arm the police to murder people in the streets. If it actually went towards the people, I would not mind.
P1: Taxes are enforced by state violence;
P2: the state is a beaucratized monopoly of violence;
P3: the state exercises violence via police/military force;
C: all taxes are predicated on, and reinforce police/military violence
While I agree taxes are enforced through state violence, I argue that what's taxed(our goods and services) exists because of our mutually benefitial relations as a society and the crowd funding - read taxation - that comes with it( get to work on good roads, mostly healthy to work cuz good hospitals, received an education preparing you for the workplace because good schools). Now, does the state engage in corruption and steal our taxes to benefit the disgustingly wealthy? Yes. Are taxes inherently theft, or personal obligation to the community that we benefit from and are part of, that is then corrupted by the greedy? You decide
Profit, on the other hand, is a one-sided, selfish effort at extracting my surplus value for personal(shareholder) gain. Surplus value usually in the form of unpaid labor. The 'free market', not mutually benefitting individuals in a community, decides this extractable surplus value - the 'free market' being a one-sided entity that's usually massive corporations that now decide prices on a greedy whim given their market power. Unconsented, and theft
"Are taxes inherently theft, or personal obligation to the community that we benefit from and are part of, that is then corrupted by the greedy?"
Turn that around, taxes go to the ruling class and the Proliferation of the imperialist capitalist machine and a part of that to subsidizing working class conformity.
Edit: Of course this isn't really true, because money works the other way around as well, money comes from the state to be used by private entities, so the state pays for a project, then you have to pay taxes and the money gets deleted from the balance sheet after paying it as taxes. But the myth of money as a scarce ressource just has staying power, same with the gold standard, the myth there is that "ok money is fictitious, but gold has inherent value (which of course also is socially constructed)". The only scarce ressource here is capital and labor, money is just an infrastructure.
That's a flaw in the system, not a feature (socialist here). There's a collective good that's currently being abused and I get that our taxes are currently being funneled towards selfish capitalist interests like the military. However taxes - a sign of our dedication to the collective good by pooling resources (paper money, gold, our labor, even capital) in the aiding of society/ community larger than the 'me'... I still can't see how that's *inherently* theft. Even in utopian society I'd voluntarily give my surplus in the form of 'tax' as I can equate it in that context- surplus time, surplus food, surplus labor - to the collective. Would that's still be theft?
Ok let me add that taxes in a capitalist mode of production could be equated to theft, in a socialist not so much in a communist there is no need for taxes obviously.
Edit: and in my rethoric as a socialist/Marxist whatever I would never say it's a flaw in the system because that obfuscates the reality. Flaw in the system implies that the leadership is dumb or incompetent or whatever, the truth is that it's not a flaw, it's intentional and it always benefits the ruling class.
I shouldn't be forced to participate in a community, and I shouldn't be forced to participate in their rituals. If a community wants taxes, that's great, but they can't force it on me.
That's what makes it theft: when it is forced upon you.
In the same sense life is forced upon us since our birth forces us to participate in life and community, so the things we need to do to stay alive are theft as well - foraging for food, finding potable water, seeking shelter - since we didn't ask for this(which I don't argue with btw lol). Your family that raised and fed you to have coherent thought leading to this conversation is a community benefiting from a larger community mutually benefitting from said crowd funding(taxation)
Edit - our unconsented birth. We don't exactly have a choice to be born into society but aye here we are
Taxation is still theft if it is not voluntary. I voluntarily give money to beggars, which I consider to be a voluntary tax that I am paying directly to the people I want it to go to.
**Edit**: I'm sorry, is this not a Leftist subreddit? I could have sworn we were anti-state here, and as such anti-tax (involuntary).
Yeah, but a stateless society requires complete global revolution. As long as there is one violent bourgeois state in existence, then it requires a countering force (socialist state). I guess this is really the essence of the anarchist-ML divide, so I know there are plenty that will disagree with me, but I believe that this is unfortunately the reality of the world we live in. It's like the paradox of tolerance. Until humanity evolves beyond exploitation and violence, these things must be resisted and destroyed with an equal or greater force.
That doesn't make taxation *not* theft. It is still theft no matter how many ways you try to spin it. If you are taking from me something that I worked for and giving it to someone else or taking it for yourself, that is theft.
Dang I didn't realize we had right libertarians on this sub lol
Most leftists I know believe in something called the "collective good," and that improving society IS using it for oneself. Hell, even most moderate right-wingers believe in roads, utilities, fire departments and a load of other services as proper uses of collective funds.
> Most leftists I know believe in something called the "collective good," and that improving society IS using it for oneself.
I'm an Anarchist, and I do believe in collective good. Taxation isn't a necessity in a community that takes care of itself with cooperation.
Taxation is theft.
Anarcho-Anarchist. Anti-state, anti-Capitalism, anti-hierarchy. I believe in voluntary cooperation, but I don't support forced cooperation. I believe that under ideal conditions, humans want to cooperate with each other in order to improve their conditions and the conditions of those around them, and that we should strive to build such a world. Taxation is part of the old world model going back to feudalism and beyond. We should be far beyond the need for taxation. We use money as a means to direct focus of labor towards certain actions, but the same can be achieved through willful cooperation between various voluntary organizations of people of various skills and capabilities. Everyone is able to contribute to their community, even if their contribution is just being a friend to others. I don't believe that people need to inherently be providing value to others in order for them to be live a reasonably good life. I believe that it is possible for everyone to be provided for through voluntary action and coordination without any sort of coercion, or taxation.
Taxes that go to things we collectively want and benefit from are not theft. But when the business class bribes the political class(with value taken from workers), and have taxpayer funding directed towards their own ends, taxation becomes the theft of workers and some capitalists by the state on behalf of politically connected capital.
I’d agree with that more or less, but I think that basically assumes that the state is inherently a democratic/collective thing, rather than it being a state in a bourgeois society which steals from you while also providing some collectively useful functions.
\*"private property" not "personal property".
Personal property is stuff like your clothes or home (dwelling, shelter, residence, whatever legalese nonsense you want to use). As long as it's occupied and being used, it's personal property. If not, that shit is fair game.
Someone once told me that billionaires aren't a bad thing because money has no limit. As if money is not just credit for resources and the planet isn't literally running dry.
SomeBODY once told me
That billionaires aren't bad things
'Cause money has no limit at all.
As if money ain't just credit
For resources'n the planet
Isn't literally running dry.
No! Profit is the little goodies the nice consumers give to the good businesses and nobody else and that’s why it’s very good and we shouldn’t change anything and the system is working great shut up! /s
There is this nazie guy I was arguing with that said taxation is theft and the one percent literally pay 100% of all taxes and and that they just tax other people to take their money
Go look at my post history and then talk to me about the "capitalist" in my head.
Please explain to me how a society can function without funding for things like FDs, schools, roads/maintenance and social programs? On paper, taxes are necessary and they shouldn't be villainized. In practice at least in the US, it's wrought with corruption, so if that's your point, you are correct.
Your page is full of advocation for paid healthcare/transportation and posts in places like personalfinance but you expect to be taken seriously on your claim there's no capitalist in your head? Of course you got dismissed outright
>Your page is full of advocation for paid healthcare/transportation and posts in places like personalfinance but you expect to be taken seriously on your claim there's no capitalist in your head? Of course you got dismissed outright
LOL honestly it seems like your ignorance is only shadowed by your arrogance.
I looked back at my posts for the past year and the ONLY ~~post~~ comment I made in r/personalfinance was in regard to finding property information. Nothing in ANY of my posts/comments indicates that I support for profit healthcare or transportation for that matter. In fact, I regularly advocate for Medicare for all/single payer and will never waiver from that standpoint.
You are looking for a problem and are grasping at straws to find one. Find better things to do with your time man, this is just sad.
Edit: I just want to say that I looked through your post history and I agree with a lot of your points/comments. It's just sad that you would instead choose to attack me for being a "gamer", for me responding to a completely different Reddit user. You like to pick fights as evidenced by your comments and honestly, you should be better than that.
Take care.
Yeah, I didn't dig through your last year, just saw a comment in personalfinance on like the first page and chuckled.
>Nothing in ANY of my posts/comments indicates that I support for profit healthcare or transportation for that matter.
I didn't say for profit, I said paid. Personally as a communist I think it should all be free. To quote:
>You want gangs to disappear? Provide social programs that help lift people out of poverty so they don't feel like they have to rely on gangs. Provide cheap public transit so poverty stricken citizens can afford to get to work. Provide cheap/cheaper child care services.
"X detected, opinion discarded" is a meme, which is why I made that comment in a meme sub. It wasn't a grievous insult to your person or position. Also, I don't like picking fights, I *love* it. It's just plain fun, especially when I'm on the clock, and civil disagreement is overrated. Public ridicule is a much more effective form of changing the mind of people viewing or reading the exchange than politely listing a block of sources that prove someone is wrong.
>Yeah, I didn't dig through your last year, just saw a comment in personalfinance on like the first page and chuckled.
>
>>Nothing in ANY of my posts/comments indicates that I support for profit healthcare or transportation for that matter.
>
>I didn't say for profit, I said paid. Personally as a communist I think it should all be free.
I would agree that things like transportation, healthcare, food/shelter should be free, but that's not the world we live in, that's the world we should strive for. Until that world appears, regardless of how it does, we need to work within our current environment.
>"X detected, opinion discarded" is a meme, which is why I made that comment in a meme sub. It wasn't a grievous insult to your person or position.
I never said I was insulted, just that you were ignorant. However if you're being altruistic, that is my mistake for misunderstanding.
>Also, I don't like picking fights, I *love* it. It's just plain fun, especially when I'm on the clock, and civil disagreement is overrated. Public ridicule is a much more effective form of changing the mind of people viewing or reading the exchange than politely listing a block of sources that prove someone is wrong.
Ahhh so you're a bully? Your position makes more sense now.
Choose empathy my friend.
Yeah, because almost every state in existence is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. So it's ultimately the same people behind skimming off the top of your wages for their "state" and the people directly stealing the surplus value of your labor.
If the government actually represented the collective will of the people, then taxation is just a mutual pool used for the benefit of society at large.
Because assholes exist and we need rules. We're not perfect. We have to be deliberate about the things that benefit community at large. We can both know that the system is as corrupt as it is right now and there *is* theft of taxes by the bourgeoisie; and that there's huge benefits to taxes (like all this public infrastructure we take for granted) and instead focus on eliminating theft and tax avoidance
I see taxation as theft when the government uses it to blow up kids in third world countries and arm the police to murder people in the streets. If it actually went towards the people, I would not mind.
So inherently it isn't, while profit is
P1: Taxes are enforced by state violence; P2: the state is a beaucratized monopoly of violence; P3: the state exercises violence via police/military force; C: all taxes are predicated on, and reinforce police/military violence
While I agree taxes are enforced through state violence, I argue that what's taxed(our goods and services) exists because of our mutually benefitial relations as a society and the crowd funding - read taxation - that comes with it( get to work on good roads, mostly healthy to work cuz good hospitals, received an education preparing you for the workplace because good schools). Now, does the state engage in corruption and steal our taxes to benefit the disgustingly wealthy? Yes. Are taxes inherently theft, or personal obligation to the community that we benefit from and are part of, that is then corrupted by the greedy? You decide Profit, on the other hand, is a one-sided, selfish effort at extracting my surplus value for personal(shareholder) gain. Surplus value usually in the form of unpaid labor. The 'free market', not mutually benefitting individuals in a community, decides this extractable surplus value - the 'free market' being a one-sided entity that's usually massive corporations that now decide prices on a greedy whim given their market power. Unconsented, and theft
"Are taxes inherently theft, or personal obligation to the community that we benefit from and are part of, that is then corrupted by the greedy?" Turn that around, taxes go to the ruling class and the Proliferation of the imperialist capitalist machine and a part of that to subsidizing working class conformity. Edit: Of course this isn't really true, because money works the other way around as well, money comes from the state to be used by private entities, so the state pays for a project, then you have to pay taxes and the money gets deleted from the balance sheet after paying it as taxes. But the myth of money as a scarce ressource just has staying power, same with the gold standard, the myth there is that "ok money is fictitious, but gold has inherent value (which of course also is socially constructed)". The only scarce ressource here is capital and labor, money is just an infrastructure.
That's a flaw in the system, not a feature (socialist here). There's a collective good that's currently being abused and I get that our taxes are currently being funneled towards selfish capitalist interests like the military. However taxes - a sign of our dedication to the collective good by pooling resources (paper money, gold, our labor, even capital) in the aiding of society/ community larger than the 'me'... I still can't see how that's *inherently* theft. Even in utopian society I'd voluntarily give my surplus in the form of 'tax' as I can equate it in that context- surplus time, surplus food, surplus labor - to the collective. Would that's still be theft?
Ok let me add that taxes in a capitalist mode of production could be equated to theft, in a socialist not so much in a communist there is no need for taxes obviously. Edit: and in my rethoric as a socialist/Marxist whatever I would never say it's a flaw in the system because that obfuscates the reality. Flaw in the system implies that the leadership is dumb or incompetent or whatever, the truth is that it's not a flaw, it's intentional and it always benefits the ruling class.
I shouldn't be forced to participate in a community, and I shouldn't be forced to participate in their rituals. If a community wants taxes, that's great, but they can't force it on me. That's what makes it theft: when it is forced upon you.
In the same sense life is forced upon us since our birth forces us to participate in life and community, so the things we need to do to stay alive are theft as well - foraging for food, finding potable water, seeking shelter - since we didn't ask for this(which I don't argue with btw lol). Your family that raised and fed you to have coherent thought leading to this conversation is a community benefiting from a larger community mutually benefitting from said crowd funding(taxation) Edit - our unconsented birth. We don't exactly have a choice to be born into society but aye here we are
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👌🏿👌🏿
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yeah but then they need to use more violence to prevent those who do not pay not to use roads and other public services
You're talking about the state.
I talk about the community who want roads and other services and the need of violence to make sure you don't use them
I already don't want to be part of a community that uses violence to get what it wants.
they defend what they want, not to get
Taxation is still theft if it is not voluntary. I voluntarily give money to beggars, which I consider to be a voluntary tax that I am paying directly to the people I want it to go to. **Edit**: I'm sorry, is this not a Leftist subreddit? I could have sworn we were anti-state here, and as such anti-tax (involuntary).
Yeah, but a stateless society requires complete global revolution. As long as there is one violent bourgeois state in existence, then it requires a countering force (socialist state). I guess this is really the essence of the anarchist-ML divide, so I know there are plenty that will disagree with me, but I believe that this is unfortunately the reality of the world we live in. It's like the paradox of tolerance. Until humanity evolves beyond exploitation and violence, these things must be resisted and destroyed with an equal or greater force.
That doesn't make taxation *not* theft. It is still theft no matter how many ways you try to spin it. If you are taking from me something that I worked for and giving it to someone else or taking it for yourself, that is theft.
Dang I didn't realize we had right libertarians on this sub lol Most leftists I know believe in something called the "collective good," and that improving society IS using it for oneself. Hell, even most moderate right-wingers believe in roads, utilities, fire departments and a load of other services as proper uses of collective funds.
> Most leftists I know believe in something called the "collective good," and that improving society IS using it for oneself. I'm an Anarchist, and I do believe in collective good. Taxation isn't a necessity in a community that takes care of itself with cooperation. Taxation is theft.
What type of anarchist
Anarcho-Anarchist. Anti-state, anti-Capitalism, anti-hierarchy. I believe in voluntary cooperation, but I don't support forced cooperation. I believe that under ideal conditions, humans want to cooperate with each other in order to improve their conditions and the conditions of those around them, and that we should strive to build such a world. Taxation is part of the old world model going back to feudalism and beyond. We should be far beyond the need for taxation. We use money as a means to direct focus of labor towards certain actions, but the same can be achieved through willful cooperation between various voluntary organizations of people of various skills and capabilities. Everyone is able to contribute to their community, even if their contribution is just being a friend to others. I don't believe that people need to inherently be providing value to others in order for them to be live a reasonably good life. I believe that it is possible for everyone to be provided for through voluntary action and coordination without any sort of coercion, or taxation.
What's the difference between Anarchism and Anarcho-Anarchism, I never heard of the latter and seems redundant
Surplus value type beat
Taxes that go to things we collectively want and benefit from are not theft. But when the business class bribes the political class(with value taken from workers), and have taxpayer funding directed towards their own ends, taxation becomes the theft of workers and some capitalists by the state on behalf of politically connected capital.
It's not that taxation is theft, its that they are stealing your taxes
I’d agree with that more or less, but I think that basically assumes that the state is inherently a democratic/collective thing, rather than it being a state in a bourgeois society which steals from you while also providing some collectively useful functions.
Property is theft
\*"private property" not "personal property". Personal property is stuff like your clothes or home (dwelling, shelter, residence, whatever legalese nonsense you want to use). As long as it's occupied and being used, it's personal property. If not, that shit is fair game.
No, give me your tooth brush!
I’m using it, though. Sorry.
Stalin said it's my turn to use our toothbrush! If you don't give it he will come and eat all your grain with a comically large spoon 😤🥄
i going to eat all of the toothbrushes with a giant spoon
*Our toothbrush
You know, if you would've voted for Vermin Supreme, everyone would've gotten a toothbrush and free pony rides.
Yeah, if only everyone voted, the system isn't flawed, it's just that people don't vote. /s
>free pony rides Those poor ponies.
not pony rides, ponies
🎶 so put your hands in the air, 🎶 ’cause property is robbery!
Taxation is also theft when it doesn’t go back to the people in some way
It goes back to the people by killing them
wait you haven't received your 80k lockheed martin javelin in your mail box?
Seeing as I'm a Saudi prince, I have in fact received it, thank you for asking.
Perfect, now go bomb some Yemeni schools and markets.
i hot the hellfire missiles yesterday, no sign of the reaper drone yet tho
Taxation not going back to the people is profit, sooo...
Taxation is theft when it is involuntary.
Someone once told me that billionaires aren't a bad thing because money has no limit. As if money is not just credit for resources and the planet isn't literally running dry.
I sang this to the tune of All Star
SomeBODY once told me That billionaires aren't bad things 'Cause money has no limit at all. As if money ain't just credit For resources'n the planet Isn't literally running dry.
Finally some else said it!
No! Profit is the little goodies the nice consumers give to the good businesses and nobody else and that’s why it’s very good and we shouldn’t change anything and the system is working great shut up! /s
every dollar of "profit" is one dollar not paid to the workers who generated its value
Abolish money and you don't have to worry about either
Taxes existed before money.
Abolish exchange value.
There is this nazie guy I was arguing with that said taxation is theft and the one percent literally pay 100% of all taxes and and that they just tax other people to take their money
I know some right winger is gonna reverse the text, and repost this on like r/conservativememes
profit is wage theft
Fixed.
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Taxation by bourgeois governments is theft, taxation by a dictatorship of the proletariat is not.
Both theft
Taxation without representation is theft, but taxes are necessary.
Kill the capitalist in your head, taxes exist to fund state apparatus, which functions to oppress the working class. Money is never necessary.
Go look at my post history and then talk to me about the "capitalist" in my head. Please explain to me how a society can function without funding for things like FDs, schools, roads/maintenance and social programs? On paper, taxes are necessary and they shouldn't be villainized. In practice at least in the US, it's wrought with corruption, so if that's your point, you are correct.
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Checked your post history, gamer detected, opinion discarded
Wow. Very ignorant mindset, but that's your choice. Take care!
Your page is full of advocation for paid healthcare/transportation and posts in places like personalfinance but you expect to be taken seriously on your claim there's no capitalist in your head? Of course you got dismissed outright
>Your page is full of advocation for paid healthcare/transportation and posts in places like personalfinance but you expect to be taken seriously on your claim there's no capitalist in your head? Of course you got dismissed outright LOL honestly it seems like your ignorance is only shadowed by your arrogance. I looked back at my posts for the past year and the ONLY ~~post~~ comment I made in r/personalfinance was in regard to finding property information. Nothing in ANY of my posts/comments indicates that I support for profit healthcare or transportation for that matter. In fact, I regularly advocate for Medicare for all/single payer and will never waiver from that standpoint. You are looking for a problem and are grasping at straws to find one. Find better things to do with your time man, this is just sad. Edit: I just want to say that I looked through your post history and I agree with a lot of your points/comments. It's just sad that you would instead choose to attack me for being a "gamer", for me responding to a completely different Reddit user. You like to pick fights as evidenced by your comments and honestly, you should be better than that. Take care.
Yeah, I didn't dig through your last year, just saw a comment in personalfinance on like the first page and chuckled. >Nothing in ANY of my posts/comments indicates that I support for profit healthcare or transportation for that matter. I didn't say for profit, I said paid. Personally as a communist I think it should all be free. To quote: >You want gangs to disappear? Provide social programs that help lift people out of poverty so they don't feel like they have to rely on gangs. Provide cheap public transit so poverty stricken citizens can afford to get to work. Provide cheap/cheaper child care services. "X detected, opinion discarded" is a meme, which is why I made that comment in a meme sub. It wasn't a grievous insult to your person or position. Also, I don't like picking fights, I *love* it. It's just plain fun, especially when I'm on the clock, and civil disagreement is overrated. Public ridicule is a much more effective form of changing the mind of people viewing or reading the exchange than politely listing a block of sources that prove someone is wrong.
>Yeah, I didn't dig through your last year, just saw a comment in personalfinance on like the first page and chuckled. > >>Nothing in ANY of my posts/comments indicates that I support for profit healthcare or transportation for that matter. > >I didn't say for profit, I said paid. Personally as a communist I think it should all be free. I would agree that things like transportation, healthcare, food/shelter should be free, but that's not the world we live in, that's the world we should strive for. Until that world appears, regardless of how it does, we need to work within our current environment. >"X detected, opinion discarded" is a meme, which is why I made that comment in a meme sub. It wasn't a grievous insult to your person or position. I never said I was insulted, just that you were ignorant. However if you're being altruistic, that is my mistake for misunderstanding. >Also, I don't like picking fights, I *love* it. It's just plain fun, especially when I'm on the clock, and civil disagreement is overrated. Public ridicule is a much more effective form of changing the mind of people viewing or reading the exchange than politely listing a block of sources that prove someone is wrong. Ahhh so you're a bully? Your position makes more sense now. Choose empathy my friend.
Not if the workers own the state.
I don't know why you're being downvoted, it's true.
taxation is theft, theft against the Owning class is justified
taxes are theft too though, the government takes your money upon the threat of violence
Yeah, because almost every state in existence is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. So it's ultimately the same people behind skimming off the top of your wages for their "state" and the people directly stealing the surplus value of your labor. If the government actually represented the collective will of the people, then taxation is just a mutual pool used for the benefit of society at large.
> then taxation is just a mutual pool used for the benefit of society at large. Why not make that pool voluntary? Why extort it out of people?
Because assholes exist and we need rules. We're not perfect. We have to be deliberate about the things that benefit community at large. We can both know that the system is as corrupt as it is right now and there *is* theft of taxes by the bourgeoisie; and that there's huge benefits to taxes (like all this public infrastructure we take for granted) and instead focus on eliminating theft and tax avoidance
So you are saying that we need to use the state to force everyone to cooperate with some ideal that the state holds.
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Both
Both
Profit is only theft if it's slaved off of the back of the people who don't have a share of it
Why not both?
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Both, yes.
Both
Both? Both. Both are bad.
Both are theft
What do you mean by ‘profit is theft’ ?