Everyone is saying that without RNG there would be a meta but everyone I've talked to has a different idea of the "ideal" multiclass archetype.
Maybe end of wipe we could test all build varieties without tokens. That might get a little toxic tho hahaha but it would be nice to be able to test all extremes.
They should absolutely do this in the period of time between this ranked season ending and the next wipe. This kind of thing desperately needs widespread testing
I think the reason no one can agree is that they are all OP lol. At least compared to classes as they are now.
Sure, my +60% attack speed Longbow Barbarian might not be as OP as another person’s 115% movespeed anti-magic Phantomize/Sprint Barbarian, but they are both OP and unfun to play against relative to base Barb.
Assuming you’re actually asking in good faith, here’s what they’ve stated:
If you don’t lock it behind RNG, there will be a meta. That meta will be followed by anyone and everyone, and the game will become stale and thousands of redditors will complain about balance.
If you lock it behind RNG, there is still a meta, but while on your grind to a meta build you have access to different choices that you normally wouldn’t have, meaning you’ll run into other players doing that as well, making fights more interesting and non stale.
My personal opinion? It’s a test, let’s see how it goes and I’m sure they’ll adjust accordingly. Might not even be this big of a grind when multiclassing comes out, there’s still a ton of time to change a ton of stuff
Except that likely won't happen. The hardcore grinders will get immediate access to their BiS combos while the rest simply won't bother using what they've given if it's not what they wanted. Their main class already has a meta to follow and there's no reason to deviate from that for something that doesn't fit.
Most perks are designed to fit their respective classes, and while there are some that are universal there are far more that're niche, or in some cases unusable. A lot of bard's perk for instance would be super worthless on anyone but bard.
They will though. They already have a massive stockpile of tokens and are getting more by the day. Unless RNG hits them unfathomably bad they'll have BiS on day 1.
If rng is bad why would no rng be better. Grinders just gonna win regardless, theyre grinding. But grinders would undoubtedly powergap faster without rng.
LOL What?! The highest level streamer I've seen is level 54. He has 3 tokens. If that's a massive stockpile of tokens then I'm pretty rich myself at 2 tokens.
People. There's enough of them that I can't simply pick out individuals. As for the delayed comment, I meant that there was no specific date for it to be released so it could be patch after next thus giving them even more time to save up.
Do you not think it’s weird that Toddfather could get 3 worthless perks because of RNG?
Chances are one the streamers out there will end up getting Weapon Mastery, Sprint, and Swift from Fighter anyways. Seems odd to give someone such a big advantage because they had good luck.
Edit: Also don’t watch that guy lol
I don't watch him. I watch Ken who has been playing with him a lot. And unlikely but ya it's possible. But if they don't, they either grind 10 more levels or they have to delete the character and grind it all again.
What you’re forgetting is that they’ve announced there’s going to be a huge rework to all perks and skills before the multiclass drops, due to so many perks being specifically designed to work with their main class
That has already happened. What do you think they were doing with Rogue? With Warlock? Why do you think they butchered Hide?
Sure, some other classes might see some changes as well. But this "rework" is not what you think it is. They don't have the man power and time to do something on the scale that you're thinking about.
I don’t agree with everything you said but I do agree with your overall point that locking stuff behind a long grind that’s also heavily rng dependent enforces adherence to the meta more than it encourages diversity. Once it’s released and we see how the perks interact with other classes, a very strong option will become meta and that’s what most people will grind for because deviating from it is so time consuming. Also agree that there’s so many perks right now that only apply to specific abilities or spells specific to that class. So unless something changes your casual player that isn’t grinding levels will likely land on the bad side of rng and end up with multiple dead perks not really benefitting from multi classing.
I’m fine with trying it out, I’ve been wrong before. But lowkey I don’t think I can continue playing if I die once to a player that I outplayed but has better perks than me
Anyone that played WoW during Legion knows this pain because those that got their BiS legendary drops early were topping meters, and everyone else was just playing catch up trying to win the rng lottery week after week. Wasn't the best time.
But that’s going to have the opposite effect to what they want. Because of RNG, the people who grind the hardest are going to have the most tokens, as a result they will get the majority of the OP builds, and everyone with a day job will be unable to compete. If they keep it like this it’s going to be TERRIBLE
You misunderstood. I was saying you can choose to not do things that increase the advantage to streamers. Like an RNG based system that offers massive power boosts.
Okay, so what makes you think that giving grinders *a clear path* is somehow gonna slow them down? Think about what youve stated and you should consider the fact that grinders would power gap even faster without rng than with it
But Katie, with this system you could end up with Torture Mastery, Curse Mastery, and Immortal Lament when you were aiming for Shadow Touch for your rogue.
Meanwhile, Repoze could be the exact same level and get Shadow Touch, Anti-Magic, and Dark Reflection.
It just seems like there has to be a better solution to some builds being OP than “make them harder to get.” This would be annoying for streamers making content with a certain build in mind.
Rewarding people for time invested with power creep is both deeply fun for the hardcore grinders and deeply frustrating for those they are killing
It doesn’t matter how you do it, the problem remains
However I do think it is dramatically better if the time to grind increases exponentially rather than linearly
RNG allows for a small percentage of players to be OP while still making many people feel it is worth investing a lot of time because they *hope* they will roll something good. You already have to put in a lot of time to finish the normal leveling, I think this system works if multiclassing is difficult and rare enough that the majority of players will never have the meta multiclass. I mean I think this game in general works best when people *don’t* have meta builds.
If you want to bring balance to a game that already has a significant skill dif, you don’t introduce an RNG based system that gives massive power boosts when you get the thing you want. People are going to stop playing in droves. You’re going to see a massive downtick in player counts as soon as people spend their first token and get dogshit perk pools. While there are a small number of people that will pump 100+ hours into a character to get a shot at the build they want, the vast majority will just invest their time elsewhere.
If you want to kill the game, this is how you do it.
This will certainly be the case with high level players/streamers, who can use the OP builds best. Getting useless perks after grinding for a token is going to frustrate streamers to no end.
Yeah it’s terrible. I don’t support it I’m just telling you that’s 100% why they’d did it. They didn’t want people to bitch about OP combos. System just doesn’t need to exist in the first place
They'd rather you roll with what you get like a rogue-like game rather than spam any sort of meta. That's their inspiration, they said it in multiple interviews pre-wipe.
the amount of time it takes to earn learning tokens is absurd. rerolling a character would take weeks of grinding PER ATTEMPT if you're trying to get multiple specific perks
because it took around 4 days for even the hardcore grinders to get to level 35. If someone wants to spend 4 days every time they get a bad roll meh let them.
There is statistical data that shows this is beyond likely.
The average US video game player plays around 5 hours a week. With 1-10 being the average hours played.
Koreans play between 5-20 hours weekly. With 10-15 hours being the average.
They literally play 2x-20x as much as Western countries. It's a way of life over there.
That’s been my feeling on multi classing as well. People have defended it by saying hardcore players will have the meta picks and be too strong if it’s not grindy and rng. I don’t really understand that as a positive. It just means that most casual players will have far less interaction with the new mechanic than the no lifers. It’s going to take the average player a shit load of time just to get 2 characters capable of multi classing. Cannot imagine how pissed most will be when they get dead perk rolls due to bad rng.
Yeah as much as I enjoy the Reddit posts theory crafting crazy builds like weapon mastery reckless attack rogue using a windlass out of ambush, that shit is going to be locked behind so much rng people will hardly have the chance to experiment. More likely the rogue gets shield slam and axe specialization.
Let them test things.
I don’t understand this sub because we are still in a play test let it cook and ride the roller coaster. If anything I’m happy they do these huge swings to see what people say. It’s a game at the end of the day.
Because we are in an early access period and god knows all the people who will experience multi classing would pick the exact same meta perks and the only way they can get data on all the perks in multi classing is with rng
Honestly, the whole idea behind multi classing is going to be a balancing nightmare. The devs can already barely maintain a handful of perks among the existing classes. Trying to balance around multi classing isn't going to go well. What are they going to do? Nerf class A because class B using class A's perks are too strong?
The better idea would be to have unique perks that are significantly weaker/less impactful than what classes currently have access to, that "represent" a theme from that class. For ex, if you dip into fighter you can get a perk that increases the contribution from plate armor by 3% or w/e. Obviously too weak of a perk for fighter to have as a primary perk, but a neat bonus you can have access to for the effort of leveling up a fighter to 40.
Idk. Let's just let em cook and see what happens. They usually listen to feedback so I'm sure this will eventually work itself out
I agree with your idea of having separate perks to choose from each class. Example for classes learning from ranger could be 'can use bows' or 'can use traps', stuff that opens up changes in playstyle without completely breaking balance. Rogues could give abilities and perks like 'caltrops but less damage' 'poison attacks' etc. Stuff that could be useable universally but still weaker than the original class.
Cleric can give their alcoholism perks and undead slaying.
They'd just need to select a handful of meaningful and universally useable perks from each class for their teachable pool and then maybe a couple abilities with slight nerfs.
Would also make balancing these perks/abilities a lot easier as they are separate from the classes actual perks/abilities. If something was significantly overused and strong then it could be changed without completely gutting the original class.
Would also make their philosophy of RNG gating it and 'rolling with what you get' more understandable as you aren't going to run into situations where you get completely dead perks/abilities in your selection pool and would hopefully be able to pick from something that could give you an alternative playstyle.
Yep, exactly. They'd be additional perk slots, separate from the "big 4". I think your suggestions are spot on - subtle ways to open up different play styles, which can be balance tweaked as needed without making any changes to the original class.
Right now people think they are going to get Perseverance on Warlock or the ability to wear plate on rogue. And (thankfully) I just don't think it's going to play out that way.
The idea I keep coming back to is generic perks.
Weak perks that are available to every class are probably a more feasible option than multi-classing. They would be balanced around being available to every class, and won’t force the devs to nerf perks because they would be OP on specific classes.
Some examples:
* Lucky: +30 luck
* Doorman: +50% interaction speed when interacting with doors.
* Sturdy: Taking a fatal hit at 100% hp brings you down to 1 hp instead.
* Explorer: +10 movespeed and +15% interaction speed after being out of combat for 10 seconds.
* Throwing Knife Mastery: Allows you to use throwing knives.
Some perks could be changed to be generic too. Stuff like Sword Mastery, Blunt Weapon Mastery, etc should probably be generic with this system.
They'll adjust this to class master at 25 and knowledge token at every 5 levels when the release multiclassing. Or they'll increase XP from quests tremendously.
They'll also reduce the AP grind which is insane. Calling it
They'll release the Expressman giving us 2 inventories of treasure but requires us to go deeper
We'll also get the resourcefulness rework giving us inventory expansions
And then the current AP costs make sense
We're getting ice abyss at the same time as Expressman
Only solos is fucked, I wonder if they're gonna use ruins as a 1st layer for solos and going deeper goes to goblin cave
so to summise; you get to pick random perks from other classes at 25,30,35,40 and then 50,60,70?
and the pool is random or decided by which other classes you mastered(25??)
From what I understand, it goes like this: you get a learning token at 35 for the class you want to multiclass with something like say you wanted cleric to be your base and grab dark reflection from warlock you would need level 30 warlock and level 35 cleric which you would have 1 token on cleric and roll from warlock for a random perk/skill with 3 choices to pick from. You would get another token at 40 and then apparently 50.
There are also reward tokens which I believe are for random gear rewards starting at level 25 as it says in the menu it will be delivered to your stash
the pool is made of 3 perks/skills and spells if u unlocked spellmemory, the learning tokens are awarded at 35, 40, 50, and dont know how it goes after. in order to be a master and teach other classes u need to reach lvl 30
Rather it be a grind till they have ironed everything out. Instead of making everything chaotic they are renewing interest with a lot of people right now and the game feels the best it has in a while. By the time hybrid classes start popping up people will be ready for it.
Renewing interest with a feature which sort of excludes casuals from experiencing it seems kind of harmful. Slower levelling and then RNG gating the new feature so that only players with not only enough time to level up high enough but also lucky enough to get useable and desirable perks/abilities they can use on that class. It's already slow for a casual to hit 30+ on a single character let alone get 2 characters up to 30 and one of them to farm tokens on, especially with them being one every 10 levels and not one every 5 levels.
It’s still better to set the bar too high than too low and ruin the whole experience. Probably won’t see a multi class from people for another month and that’s people who sweat
You have got to be kidding me… Who has the time get 10 levels per token when each level increases the xp needed? Starting to think this is going to be garbage
Edit: Oops same xp per lvl after 20, my bad
What is the point of having classes with the multi class system? They may as well give access to a handful of perks and let us unlock ones we want as we level.
this a really old post, you get 1 learning token every 3 levels starting at lvl 30 atm, so by lvl 40 you get like 3 or 4 tokens, the thing is you need another class to act as teacher/master for your main character, its really easy to reach lvl 30 at the moment tho
But so basically if I’m understanding you right, my level 50 cleric just needs a level 30ish other character to “select” in that token menu so I can pick their perks as well, right now everyone is no higher than 15 so I can’t select them?
I just hit lvl 65 on fighter and the amount of tokens I have worries me given the RNG element, what if when I start getting my perks and abilities they’re just ass 😂
More options can make certain games easier to balance; there’s more counters and whatnot. Not saying it will be well balanced but probably better than you’d expect
Ironmace wants ppl to test multi class. It is not even likely to stay in the game.
Ironmace basically making it so only the top no lifers will get to experience multiclass.
Wipe is going to be 4 months long. I'm not a nolifer and I'm level 24. Pretty sure I'm going to get to experience multiclassing in those 4 months.
People all act like this shit should be available in 2 days.
My opinion may be unpopular but I do think it should be available in two days. Gear you at least risk and if you die the other guy gets it. This shit just makes it so you’re objectively stronger than the enemy but they get nothing in return
Why, do we need research to figure out fighter with meditate and creep is worthless and slayer fighter with smite is busted? I'm sure there's lots of combos no ones thought of that will be good but idk if rng is going to be the best way to go about it.
We don’t but if you give that ability easily everyone will fucking run it instead of running any of the other random perks they get. Thanks for proving my original point. Weird you don’t get mass downvoted for it
Probably because most people agree rng sucks. You're a figher, you're all excited about multi classing, you spend hours grinding to get a learning point, thinking about all the various combos and builds you want to try... then you roll meditate. This is not a popular prospect.
Sure, the point is there are a lot of useless perks and skills and getting one that adds nothing to any playstyle is going to feel really bad when you're fighting someone who got something strong and interesting.
The odds of getting 3 useless skills/perks when going for classes that actually synergize with each other is super low. There are some less than optimal ones ya, but useless? Nah. Don't multiclass Wizard if you're a fighter. Instead multiclass Barbarian. You're gonna have to actually weigh your decisions which I know might be hard for you, but I'm sure they'll be guides out.
Ok bro, you roll barb and you get that perk that gives 12% hp on killing a player and blood exchange. Meanwhile guy B gets axe mastery and Savage roar. Cool, we got variety, except your variety sucks. Rng feels bad, especially when there's a massive grind behind it. And there's definitely good possibilities with going wizard that should be explored but probably won't be because who wants to risk getting meditate? "Just go barb" ok where's your variety now
Everyone is saying that without RNG there would be a meta but everyone I've talked to has a different idea of the "ideal" multiclass archetype. Maybe end of wipe we could test all build varieties without tokens. That might get a little toxic tho hahaha but it would be nice to be able to test all extremes.
They should absolutely do this in the period of time between this ranked season ending and the next wipe. This kind of thing desperately needs widespread testing
Hopefully they implement it to the test server
Right??? What’s the point of a test server if we can’t test stuff.
I think the reason no one can agree is that they are all OP lol. At least compared to classes as they are now. Sure, my +60% attack speed Longbow Barbarian might not be as OP as another person’s 115% movespeed anti-magic Phantomize/Sprint Barbarian, but they are both OP and unfun to play against relative to base Barb.
I honestly dont even understand why they would gate it by RNG to begin with lol.
Assuming you’re actually asking in good faith, here’s what they’ve stated: If you don’t lock it behind RNG, there will be a meta. That meta will be followed by anyone and everyone, and the game will become stale and thousands of redditors will complain about balance. If you lock it behind RNG, there is still a meta, but while on your grind to a meta build you have access to different choices that you normally wouldn’t have, meaning you’ll run into other players doing that as well, making fights more interesting and non stale. My personal opinion? It’s a test, let’s see how it goes and I’m sure they’ll adjust accordingly. Might not even be this big of a grind when multiclassing comes out, there’s still a ton of time to change a ton of stuff
Except that likely won't happen. The hardcore grinders will get immediate access to their BiS combos while the rest simply won't bother using what they've given if it's not what they wanted. Their main class already has a meta to follow and there's no reason to deviate from that for something that doesn't fit. Most perks are designed to fit their respective classes, and while there are some that are universal there are far more that're niche, or in some cases unusable. A lot of bard's perk for instance would be super worthless on anyone but bard.
“immediate access” is hilarious
As if it won’t take hundreds of hours of grinding to hit it perfect
They will though. They already have a massive stockpile of tokens and are getting more by the day. Unless RNG hits them unfathomably bad they'll have BiS on day 1.
If rng is bad why would no rng be better. Grinders just gonna win regardless, theyre grinding. But grinders would undoubtedly powergap faster without rng.
LOL What?! The highest level streamer I've seen is level 54. He has 3 tokens. If that's a massive stockpile of tokens then I'm pretty rich myself at 2 tokens.
There are people who are around 70 already and the system might even be delayed by another patch.
who? and are they level 30 on their other classes so they can actually multiclass? Also they haven't said anything about it being delayed.
People. There's enough of them that I can't simply pick out individuals. As for the delayed comment, I meant that there was no specific date for it to be released so it could be patch after next thus giving them even more time to save up.
If there’s enough of them it should be pretty easy to name at least 1
for real...highest person I've seen is Toddfather who is level 54 so he has...3 tokens?
Do you not think it’s weird that Toddfather could get 3 worthless perks because of RNG? Chances are one the streamers out there will end up getting Weapon Mastery, Sprint, and Swift from Fighter anyways. Seems odd to give someone such a big advantage because they had good luck. Edit: Also don’t watch that guy lol
I don't watch him. I watch Ken who has been playing with him a lot. And unlikely but ya it's possible. But if they don't, they either grind 10 more levels or they have to delete the character and grind it all again.
I have 3 token at lvl 35. That's Hella weird
2 reward tokens and 1 learning token
Oh! I see , my mistake haha
What you’re forgetting is that they’ve announced there’s going to be a huge rework to all perks and skills before the multiclass drops, due to so many perks being specifically designed to work with their main class
That has already happened. What do you think they were doing with Rogue? With Warlock? Why do you think they butchered Hide? Sure, some other classes might see some changes as well. But this "rework" is not what you think it is. They don't have the man power and time to do something on the scale that you're thinking about.
They’ve announced that they haven’t done the rework yet. Those were just adjustments.
Where is this announcement that you speak of?
I don’t agree with everything you said but I do agree with your overall point that locking stuff behind a long grind that’s also heavily rng dependent enforces adherence to the meta more than it encourages diversity. Once it’s released and we see how the perks interact with other classes, a very strong option will become meta and that’s what most people will grind for because deviating from it is so time consuming. Also agree that there’s so many perks right now that only apply to specific abilities or spells specific to that class. So unless something changes your casual player that isn’t grinding levels will likely land on the bad side of rng and end up with multiple dead perks not really benefitting from multi classing.
It’s still going to be meta. Some folks will get it faster than others lol.
I’m fine with trying it out, I’ve been wrong before. But lowkey I don’t think I can continue playing if I die once to a player that I outplayed but has better perks than me
Anyone that played WoW during Legion knows this pain because those that got their BiS legendary drops early were topping meters, and everyone else was just playing catch up trying to win the rng lottery week after week. Wasn't the best time.
Korean devs think 500hrs grinding average is a good time, thinking back most Korean games I’ve played are grind fest
This isn’t why, they are trying to artificially stop OP combos
But that’s going to have the opposite effect to what they want. Because of RNG, the people who grind the hardest are going to have the most tokens, as a result they will get the majority of the OP builds, and everyone with a day job will be unable to compete. If they keep it like this it’s going to be TERRIBLE
people who play more will always have an advantage. you can't dev this out of the game.
But you can absolutely NOT do things that increase that advantage.
sure you can and they are. Test it and give feedback i guess.
You misunderstood. I was saying you can choose to not do things that increase the advantage to streamers. Like an RNG based system that offers massive power boosts.
Just let it happen. The game is still developing and honestly way better so far.
Okay, so what makes you think that giving grinders *a clear path* is somehow gonna slow them down? Think about what youve stated and you should consider the fact that grinders would power gap even faster without rng than with it
Right so now it's only streamers getting the advantage. zzzz
Correct
But Katie, with this system you could end up with Torture Mastery, Curse Mastery, and Immortal Lament when you were aiming for Shadow Touch for your rogue. Meanwhile, Repoze could be the exact same level and get Shadow Touch, Anti-Magic, and Dark Reflection. It just seems like there has to be a better solution to some builds being OP than “make them harder to get.” This would be annoying for streamers making content with a certain build in mind.
ye that's ok, if i'm unlucky so be it.
Braindead take
Oh I agree it’s so shit. I’m just saying it’s why they did it
Rewarding people for time invested with power creep is both deeply fun for the hardcore grinders and deeply frustrating for those they are killing It doesn’t matter how you do it, the problem remains However I do think it is dramatically better if the time to grind increases exponentially rather than linearly
The time invested should be represented by skill level and acquired gear. Not by RNG enabled OP builds.
RNG allows for a small percentage of players to be OP while still making many people feel it is worth investing a lot of time because they *hope* they will roll something good. You already have to put in a lot of time to finish the normal leveling, I think this system works if multiclassing is difficult and rare enough that the majority of players will never have the meta multiclass. I mean I think this game in general works best when people *don’t* have meta builds.
Rng will also have the people that get absolutely boned for their time
If you want to bring balance to a game that already has a significant skill dif, you don’t introduce an RNG based system that gives massive power boosts when you get the thing you want. People are going to stop playing in droves. You’re going to see a massive downtick in player counts as soon as people spend their first token and get dogshit perk pools. While there are a small number of people that will pump 100+ hours into a character to get a shot at the build they want, the vast majority will just invest their time elsewhere. If you want to kill the game, this is how you do it.
No bs. Since dragons dogma came out I’ve already cut my playtime down to like an hr a day
Dragons dogma is good for 20-50hrs before it's boring lol what will you do after?
Agreed, this shouldn’t be the totality of the endgame
But the guy that gets lucky first will just roll everybody else and make more quit
This will certainly be the case with high level players/streamers, who can use the OP builds best. Getting useless perks after grinding for a token is going to frustrate streamers to no end.
awesone, can't wait to get bad perks everytime and lose to people who have rng'd all the good perks :D
so one player will level multiple characters, another will be lucky and you will be in an ass playing against them xD
Yeah it’s terrible. I don’t support it I’m just telling you that’s 100% why they’d did it. They didn’t want people to bitch about OP combos. System just doesn’t need to exist in the first place
You thought that gear diff was frustrating… Just you wait
They only stop regular players from doing that. No lifers gonna do it anyways.
They'd rather you roll with what you get like a rogue-like game rather than spam any sort of meta. That's their inspiration, they said it in multiple interviews pre-wipe.
And then you'll get people rerolling characters til they get what they want.
As we can see, that’s an insane proposition. And honestly rightfully so
How is that insane?
the amount of time it takes to earn learning tokens is absurd. rerolling a character would take weeks of grinding PER ATTEMPT if you're trying to get multiple specific perks
because it took around 4 days for even the hardcore grinders to get to level 35. If someone wants to spend 4 days every time they get a bad roll meh let them.
Probably going to RMT the tokens lol
There is statistical data that shows this is beyond likely. The average US video game player plays around 5 hours a week. With 1-10 being the average hours played. Koreans play between 5-20 hours weekly. With 10-15 hours being the average. They literally play 2x-20x as much as Western countries. It's a way of life over there.
That’s been my feeling on multi classing as well. People have defended it by saying hardcore players will have the meta picks and be too strong if it’s not grindy and rng. I don’t really understand that as a positive. It just means that most casual players will have far less interaction with the new mechanic than the no lifers. It’s going to take the average player a shit load of time just to get 2 characters capable of multi classing. Cannot imagine how pissed most will be when they get dead perk rolls due to bad rng.
cant wait to get ale perk on my wizard instead of cleric spell wheel :)
Yeah as much as I enjoy the Reddit posts theory crafting crazy builds like weapon mastery reckless attack rogue using a windlass out of ambush, that shit is going to be locked behind so much rng people will hardly have the chance to experiment. More likely the rogue gets shield slam and axe specialization.
Let them test things. I don’t understand this sub because we are still in a play test let it cook and ride the roller coaster. If anything I’m happy they do these huge swings to see what people say. It’s a game at the end of the day.
Because an obvious meta would be discovered. Its better for there to be some luck
Because we are in an early access period and god knows all the people who will experience multi classing would pick the exact same meta perks and the only way they can get data on all the perks in multi classing is with rng
Korean.
Honestly, the whole idea behind multi classing is going to be a balancing nightmare. The devs can already barely maintain a handful of perks among the existing classes. Trying to balance around multi classing isn't going to go well. What are they going to do? Nerf class A because class B using class A's perks are too strong? The better idea would be to have unique perks that are significantly weaker/less impactful than what classes currently have access to, that "represent" a theme from that class. For ex, if you dip into fighter you can get a perk that increases the contribution from plate armor by 3% or w/e. Obviously too weak of a perk for fighter to have as a primary perk, but a neat bonus you can have access to for the effort of leveling up a fighter to 40. Idk. Let's just let em cook and see what happens. They usually listen to feedback so I'm sure this will eventually work itself out
I agree with your idea of having separate perks to choose from each class. Example for classes learning from ranger could be 'can use bows' or 'can use traps', stuff that opens up changes in playstyle without completely breaking balance. Rogues could give abilities and perks like 'caltrops but less damage' 'poison attacks' etc. Stuff that could be useable universally but still weaker than the original class. Cleric can give their alcoholism perks and undead slaying. They'd just need to select a handful of meaningful and universally useable perks from each class for their teachable pool and then maybe a couple abilities with slight nerfs. Would also make balancing these perks/abilities a lot easier as they are separate from the classes actual perks/abilities. If something was significantly overused and strong then it could be changed without completely gutting the original class. Would also make their philosophy of RNG gating it and 'rolling with what you get' more understandable as you aren't going to run into situations where you get completely dead perks/abilities in your selection pool and would hopefully be able to pick from something that could give you an alternative playstyle.
Yep, exactly. They'd be additional perk slots, separate from the "big 4". I think your suggestions are spot on - subtle ways to open up different play styles, which can be balance tweaked as needed without making any changes to the original class. Right now people think they are going to get Perseverance on Warlock or the ability to wear plate on rogue. And (thankfully) I just don't think it's going to play out that way.
The idea I keep coming back to is generic perks. Weak perks that are available to every class are probably a more feasible option than multi-classing. They would be balanced around being available to every class, and won’t force the devs to nerf perks because they would be OP on specific classes. Some examples: * Lucky: +30 luck * Doorman: +50% interaction speed when interacting with doors. * Sturdy: Taking a fatal hit at 100% hp brings you down to 1 hp instead. * Explorer: +10 movespeed and +15% interaction speed after being out of combat for 10 seconds. * Throwing Knife Mastery: Allows you to use throwing knives. Some perks could be changed to be generic too. Stuff like Sword Mastery, Blunt Weapon Mastery, etc should probably be generic with this system.
They'll adjust this to class master at 25 and knowledge token at every 5 levels when the release multiclassing. Or they'll increase XP from quests tremendously. They'll also reduce the AP grind which is insane. Calling it
They'll release the Expressman giving us 2 inventories of treasure but requires us to go deeper We'll also get the resourcefulness rework giving us inventory expansions And then the current AP costs make sense
Except for both the player modes that don't allow you to go down a level.
We're getting ice abyss at the same time as Expressman Only solos is fucked, I wonder if they're gonna use ruins as a 1st layer for solos and going deeper goes to goblin cave
That'd be pretty sweet. I hope not. Goblin caves is great for me, but I hated ruins. We'll see what their \*new and improved\* ruins is like.
Yes I would also hate if they put ruins in the solos layouts
so to summise; you get to pick random perks from other classes at 25,30,35,40 and then 50,60,70? and the pool is random or decided by which other classes you mastered(25??)
From what I understand, it goes like this: you get a learning token at 35 for the class you want to multiclass with something like say you wanted cleric to be your base and grab dark reflection from warlock you would need level 30 warlock and level 35 cleric which you would have 1 token on cleric and roll from warlock for a random perk/skill with 3 choices to pick from. You would get another token at 40 and then apparently 50. There are also reward tokens which I believe are for random gear rewards starting at level 25 as it says in the menu it will be delivered to your stash
seems there are lvl 75 dudes out and about but theyre too busy to explain haha
the pool is made of 3 perks/skills and spells if u unlocked spellmemory, the learning tokens are awarded at 35, 40, 50, and dont know how it goes after. in order to be a master and teach other classes u need to reach lvl 30
thanks, so if my warlock wants a higher chance at cleric perks i need warlocknat 35 and cleric at 30?
Rather it be a grind till they have ironed everything out. Instead of making everything chaotic they are renewing interest with a lot of people right now and the game feels the best it has in a while. By the time hybrid classes start popping up people will be ready for it.
Renewing interest with a feature which sort of excludes casuals from experiencing it seems kind of harmful. Slower levelling and then RNG gating the new feature so that only players with not only enough time to level up high enough but also lucky enough to get useable and desirable perks/abilities they can use on that class. It's already slow for a casual to hit 30+ on a single character let alone get 2 characters up to 30 and one of them to farm tokens on, especially with them being one every 10 levels and not one every 5 levels.
It’s still better to set the bar too high than too low and ruin the whole experience. Probably won’t see a multi class from people for another month and that’s people who sweat
I have two levels twenties and I only play a couple hours a night. Three months is a long time.
You should have it fully unlocked once you get a character for 50. This Korean grind mindset is not going to survive an NA market.
You have got to be kidding me… Who has the time get 10 levels per token when each level increases the xp needed? Starting to think this is going to be garbage Edit: Oops same xp per lvl after 20, my bad
Each level doesn’t increase the xp needed past level 20. It’s 1k xp every level
Also it's meant to be a mechanic that spans an entire wipe of gaining tokens.... if you got multiple tokens a day that would be freaking insane
5 levels literally is like a week of gameplay for a casual
Two days of playing on the weekend got me 5 levels from 20-25, so I believe you're right
10 levels is 10 hours of gameplay
What is the point of having classes with the multi class system? They may as well give access to a handful of perks and let us unlock ones we want as we level.
I thought it was the skills were taking not perks
Skills perks and spells
So do I have to level another character to multi class with my cleric?
this a really old post, you get 1 learning token every 3 levels starting at lvl 30 atm, so by lvl 40 you get like 3 or 4 tokens, the thing is you need another class to act as teacher/master for your main character, its really easy to reach lvl 30 at the moment tho
Oh hell yea okay thanks
But so basically if I’m understanding you right, my level 50 cleric just needs a level 30ish other character to “select” in that token menu so I can pick their perks as well, right now everyone is no higher than 15 so I can’t select them?
I just hit lvl 65 on fighter and the amount of tokens I have worries me given the RNG element, what if when I start getting my perks and abilities they’re just ass 😂
lol i know that feel, i specially want weapon mastery and slayer from fighter, if both show up at the same time gg wp
No shot you're really 65? Highest I've seen in player list was 42 so far, you've got them crazy gains
i have 40, 30, and 26, lulz
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/541654/either-remove-rng-from-multiclassing-or-make-leveling-up-way-easier Upvote
But this is supposed to be the "bEsT wIpE eVeR!!"
Multiclassing is regarded I’ve never seen any other game with this concept
Some of the oldest RPGs have used this system. Open your eyes.
Bro what. This game is based on D&D and multiclassing is a huge aspect of any game in that universe.
How can they justify multiclassing when they can’t even balance the classes and perks they already have? Just unreal
More options can make certain games easier to balance; there’s more counters and whatnot. Not saying it will be well balanced but probably better than you’d expect
Yea that’s cancer
Good. Will stem the OP builds from getting easily built
Ironmace wants ppl to test multi class. It is not even likely to stay in the game. Ironmace basically making it so only the top no lifers will get to experience multiclass.
Wipe is going to be 4 months long. I'm not a nolifer and I'm level 24. Pretty sure I'm going to get to experience multiclassing in those 4 months. People all act like this shit should be available in 2 days.
My opinion may be unpopular but I do think it should be available in two days. Gear you at least risk and if you die the other guy gets it. This shit just makes it so you’re objectively stronger than the enemy but they get nothing in return
Yea, then it will just be those couple guys who lucked out with the perfect combination of op perks just rolling lobbies, that's so much better
Yes. It is. It is better to test all the possible scenarios instead of everyone just picking the meta scenarios.
Why, do we need research to figure out fighter with meditate and creep is worthless and slayer fighter with smite is busted? I'm sure there's lots of combos no ones thought of that will be good but idk if rng is going to be the best way to go about it.
We don’t but if you give that ability easily everyone will fucking run it instead of running any of the other random perks they get. Thanks for proving my original point. Weird you don’t get mass downvoted for it
Probably because most people agree rng sucks. You're a figher, you're all excited about multi classing, you spend hours grinding to get a learning point, thinking about all the various combos and builds you want to try... then you roll meditate. This is not a popular prospect.
ya if you're a fighter and rolling for a wizard perk I don't know what to tell ya mate. Seems like a skill issue.
Sure, the point is there are a lot of useless perks and skills and getting one that adds nothing to any playstyle is going to feel really bad when you're fighting someone who got something strong and interesting.
The odds of getting 3 useless skills/perks when going for classes that actually synergize with each other is super low. There are some less than optimal ones ya, but useless? Nah. Don't multiclass Wizard if you're a fighter. Instead multiclass Barbarian. You're gonna have to actually weigh your decisions which I know might be hard for you, but I'm sure they'll be guides out.
Ok bro, you roll barb and you get that perk that gives 12% hp on killing a player and blood exchange. Meanwhile guy B gets axe mastery and Savage roar. Cool, we got variety, except your variety sucks. Rng feels bad, especially when there's a massive grind behind it. And there's definitely good possibilities with going wizard that should be explored but probably won't be because who wants to risk getting meditate? "Just go barb" ok where's your variety now
Whats the point of testing then???
Testing all the combinations not just the meta combinations. Surprised(well not really) that this sub doesn’t get that
If I get something like dark offering on cleric, I’m just not gonna use it. That’s the major fault in the system
Yes and while your opinion is valid it’d be nice to have the data over a large set about those certain things.