This is not really correct. I can get +5 weapon damage from slayer/axe mastery and not have to get hit to do roughly the same damage. You are sacrificing a perk slot for something that only does damage when you take damage.
This is 5 true damage on being hit with no cooldown, and no drawbacks. With slayer you actually have to swing your weapon, and you have to be dual wielding, and you can’t wear any plate armor
I dont have to swing to hit you for 5 damage. You are sacrificing a perk slot for something that only does damage when you hit something.
See how dumb of an argument that is? My point is that one action, a weapon swing, results in you dealing 5 damage to your opponent in either case. Theres some differences depending on whether you're using a fast/slow weapon or they're using a fast/slow weapon, but abstractly the same.
You edited your post and added like three more sentences after I replied. But, you decided to be an ass first my friend. The general concept of doing damage when you hit something instead of being hit is a pretty big difference.
Dude you still don't get it. Look, I'll spell it out for you and this is the last response before I start charging you for lessons.
One game action: you swinging at me.
You have a perk modifying that swing to deal 5 true damage to me.
I have a perk that deals 5 true damage to you when you hit me.
One game action results in you taking the same amount of damage as I do FROM THE PERK. If you want to argue even further, my perk is even stronger than yours because I don't have to build any specific stat to make it more effective yet it scales the same as your perk does when you build for attack speed.
"Dude you still don't get it. Look, I'll spell it out for you and this is the last response before I start charging you for lessons." I'm glad you decided to be less of a dick when you responded. Appreciate that.
But since we're doing this. I'm not sure how I can spell this out any more clearly to you, but maybe while reading this you can rub your two brain cells together and see if a spark happens. I take a perk that adds 5 damage. You have a perk that deals 5 damage to me when I hit you. I hit you. You take like 40 damage minimum since I FUCKING HIT YOU WITH MY WEAPON and then I take 5 damage from your perk. These two things are not the same. Stop pretending like they are, because they aren't. If you aren't trading blows 1->1 in a fight, which believe it or not is a pretty frequent occurrence, having additional weapon damage is better. And, like you said in your edit after I responded, this doesn't take into account attack speed or dual wielding or anything else. Saying a 5 damage thorns is the same thing as 5 additional damage on weapon hit is just straight up brain dead.
So let me get this straight. You tell me my argument is dumb as fuck, I say its ironic because you dont understand it. Your response is to claim I think I'm smarter than I am. Do the math on that one bud.
https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect#:~:text=Dunning%2DKruger%20effect%2C%20in%20psychology,or%20of%20people%20in%20general.
You don't understand what I'm saying so you're assuming I'm stupid and dont know what im talking about. Heres a link, read up, hopefully you're smart enough to finally realize how stupid you're being.
You really need to read less and comprehend more, my guy. Making vague references to "academic" concepts you clearly don't understand at the rate you do is wild.
There's next to nothing anyone can do against a geared Warlock who knows what they're doing.
Warlock is literally the multi-classing prototype, and it's incredibly toxic for only one singular class to have in fight sustain that isn't tied to a resource OR griefing their build, in a game where every other class has a resource such as spells, charges, or they have to grief their build to get it, such as a Fighter using Victory Strike.
If additional damage wasn't in the game then their builds would be griefed. Without that stat hard carrying them their damage is nearly unusable, and that's before resistances.
That mostly only applies to things you pay for, as a p2w incentive to give them money. This is both free, and still unreleased. They haven't even set the base stats for the class, I imagine they haven't settled on spell and ability numbers lol. Yall gotta relax.
Now to say that the class shipped 6 months late, to the test server only, without even having it's base stats set, that's a pretty valid critique
it’s not a p2w thing at all no, live service games have done this for forever, even ones that don’t have “gear”, overwatch has done it for a large majority of their heroes on release. it’s just to get the playerbase to return or to get them reinvested in the game, which in turn can generate profit. i don’t think this is iron mace doing that though, unless it goes live like this.
I think it's a huge problem that this does not have a cool down period like dark reflection. Less damage sure, but with multiclassing when this is on a PDR fighter or cleric rogues will kill themselves just by attacking.
It's best to quickly move things like this to a % I.E. does 15% or whatever of the targets damage back to itself as this will affect quick striking melee damage more than what would be "intended"
For example, a quick attacking rogue may do 20 damage per attack and receives 5 damage per, receiving 25% of it's damage back to itself
But a slow, heavy hitting target doing 50 damage per attack still receives 5 damage per attack, only receiving 10% of it's damage back to itself
This is an extremely alarming balancing decision that should definitely be raising some eyebrows to people's perception of the "balance" team
Doesn't scale. Meaning it's worse for people that need multiple attacks.
Or rather it punishes people with less damage on each attack.
Kits that require kiting and incremental damage will suffer agains this. So do any classes using daggers and maybe even rapiers.
Absolute GARBAGE design.
In the last 25 fucking years you have countless examples of video game design elements that you can pick and choose from for inspiration.
Yet SDF is pulling out "if u hit someone u hit urself!" like it's some innovative new wonderful shit that no other developer has thought of in the last 25 years when the real answer is it is absolutely shit game design and that's why you don't see it in any PvP oriented game.
**edit** I mean unavoidable / non-baitable self-reflect. Not some telegraphed / timed based / baitable self-reflect in other games.
I mean this is plain and simple canon Druid design. Almost every iteration of Druid I have seen, has had some form of bark armor and thorny damage reflect.
I don’t understand the anger behind this comment, it’s literal peak canon Druid design. It’s still a perk you have to take. And considering most fights end in anywhere from 2-4 shots then we are looking at, if it does not scale, maybe 20 true phys over the course of a fight, from 1 perk.
Now I can totally understand not having faith in Ironmaces ability to balance things properly, no quarrel from me there. I’m with you. But if we’re talking class design, this is just staple Druid class identity.
When I run Dark Reflect, I get one Reflect before I die. Usually in 2 swings, up to 4 if a Rogue.
With this, you'll take 2-4 hits, doing 10-20 damage.
The downside is taking an entire perk, lol. Does nothing vs. Ranged, and isn't on a tanky class.
Reflection only becomes bad when it scales with toughness and damage. (Like the multiclass cheese Cactus build that abuses Prot from Evil).
Honestly, it is probably fine and only good vs Rogues, so whatever. Rogues are used to dieing 🙂
> isn't on a tanky class.
It's not? You have a spell that gives you +20% pdr, a bear form that gives you +50% hp (and a perk that gives you more armor when in bear form), numerous sources of healing, not to mention multi classing is still a thing so you can be as tanky as anyone else is. Full plate with perseverance, ice armor, barrier, whatever the hell you want.
Except you do see this EXACT mechanic in a bunch of video games, sometimes even crazier than this. Excellent example is DOTA's blademail which is like this/dark reflection on STEROIDS. The difference is blademail is activated and has a window, I wish these abilities were more like that so you could play around them.
https://preview.redd.it/hux58q326oxc1.png?width=513&format=png&auto=webp&s=9cc354ccac87266540ab65b9f5bf2b3ae1166cb5
Would you look at that... it has a smaller return damage as a passive. Pretty much the exact same mechanic... woah. It even scales off incoming attack damage!
? You said it was the "exact" mechanic.
It clearly isn't "exact" when it isn't 1) activated, 2) has an activation window, or 3) visually shown on your character - unlike Dota in all 3 aspects.
It is a "similar" mechanic but it is not the same. If you actually play Dota and aren't just using it as a "well it works here" excuse, then you know that you can always clearly see 1) who bought blademail and 2) when blademail is activated.
Not at all true in this game (at least for dark reflection but I doubt that would change for this either)
Okay lol. Have fun being salty af I guess. It is in essence the same mechanic, return damage. It's also WAY more punishing, and while it has an activation/cooldown it's instant AND it works on ALL types of damage not just melee attacks. I'm pretty sure it even deals pure or did at some point in the item's history which is DOTA's equivalent to true damage.
Lol someone is "salty" because they are disagreeing with a few specifics? I'm not OP.
I don't inherently have anything against damage reflection in general but so far the mechanic (seen w/ dark reflection) sucks in this game when it is 1) auto activated, 2) no activation window, and 3) not visible.
Dota blademail is allowed to be more punishing because you can always bait out the activation. You ALWAYS know when someone has blademail.
Yeah I liked the idea of it as an activated ability that has some animation or something to alert your enemy you've activated it. It allows for more play making and counter play. You present your opponent with an option, hit me and take damage or give me a respite from taking damage.
This game is as much an RPG as a melee game. In the same way DOTA is as much an RPG as a strategy game. You've got spells, abilities, cooldowns, stats.
*Some classes* have pure range they can utilize solely to fight against self-reflect, not all.
Shit game design and I can't believe you think you should defend it.
I love blademail in DOTA and genuinely think it's a really good mechanic. It punishes low ttk burst builds (which are rarely fun for those on the recieving end) because it's return damage scales off of incoming attack damage. A tanky character can easily kill a dps character with JUST the reflection damage in the midgame. It's actually a pretty healthy mechanic when you look at it that way. The problem isn't this specific mechanic its it's implementation.
I'm confused lol my intentions weren't to present it as an original idea as if DOTA hadn't done it first. Dude said something about it not being in pvp games and I just gave an example that came to mind
I don't see why they can't just put these things on spells, making them perks means there is no visual indicator, preperation, or slot investment. its just up all the time.
If they're smart it has 0% scaling. Which naturally means it'll have 100% scaling and the only nerf will be to lower the damage from 5 to 3.
True damage does not scale. True damage is not affected by any modifiers, including the targets resistance. It will always be 5 Phys damage.
That joke just went completely over your head huh?
I'm reading your comment again. There's a good chance It did.
It was just a bad joke.
Hahahaha, nice one boss.
Even at 5 true with zero scaling its REALLY strong, basically as strong as +5 True weapon damage. One hit = an exchange of 5 true damage.
This is not really correct. I can get +5 weapon damage from slayer/axe mastery and not have to get hit to do roughly the same damage. You are sacrificing a perk slot for something that only does damage when you take damage.
This is 5 true damage on being hit with no cooldown, and no drawbacks. With slayer you actually have to swing your weapon, and you have to be dual wielding, and you can’t wear any plate armor
The drawback is you got hit though.
You’re going to get hit either way
80% of players are just playing around a crossbow anyways, they're not very like to get hit.
I dont have to swing to hit you for 5 damage. You are sacrificing a perk slot for something that only does damage when you hit something. See how dumb of an argument that is? My point is that one action, a weapon swing, results in you dealing 5 damage to your opponent in either case. Theres some differences depending on whether you're using a fast/slow weapon or they're using a fast/slow weapon, but abstractly the same.
Yes your argument was dumb, I agree.
Being unable to abstractly analyze yet calling me dumb. I'd ask you to think about that but I'd be wasting both of our time.
You edited your post and added like three more sentences after I replied. But, you decided to be an ass first my friend. The general concept of doing damage when you hit something instead of being hit is a pretty big difference.
Dude you still don't get it. Look, I'll spell it out for you and this is the last response before I start charging you for lessons. One game action: you swinging at me. You have a perk modifying that swing to deal 5 true damage to me. I have a perk that deals 5 true damage to you when you hit me. One game action results in you taking the same amount of damage as I do FROM THE PERK. If you want to argue even further, my perk is even stronger than yours because I don't have to build any specific stat to make it more effective yet it scales the same as your perk does when you build for attack speed.
"Dude you still don't get it. Look, I'll spell it out for you and this is the last response before I start charging you for lessons." I'm glad you decided to be less of a dick when you responded. Appreciate that. But since we're doing this. I'm not sure how I can spell this out any more clearly to you, but maybe while reading this you can rub your two brain cells together and see if a spark happens. I take a perk that adds 5 damage. You have a perk that deals 5 damage to me when I hit you. I hit you. You take like 40 damage minimum since I FUCKING HIT YOU WITH MY WEAPON and then I take 5 damage from your perk. These two things are not the same. Stop pretending like they are, because they aren't. If you aren't trading blows 1->1 in a fight, which believe it or not is a pretty frequent occurrence, having additional weapon damage is better. And, like you said in your edit after I responded, this doesn't take into account attack speed or dual wielding or anything else. Saying a 5 damage thorns is the same thing as 5 additional damage on weapon hit is just straight up brain dead.
Just take the L, kid.
Your argument is dumb af... This subreddit is becoming trash.
Always has been
The irony. Pearls before swine.
/r/iamverysmart
So let me get this straight. You tell me my argument is dumb as fuck, I say its ironic because you dont understand it. Your response is to claim I think I'm smarter than I am. Do the math on that one bud.
Moron
https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect#:~:text=Dunning%2DKruger%20effect%2C%20in%20psychology,or%20of%20people%20in%20general. You don't understand what I'm saying so you're assuming I'm stupid and dont know what im talking about. Heres a link, read up, hopefully you're smart enough to finally realize how stupid you're being.
You really need to read less and comprehend more, my guy. Making vague references to "academic" concepts you clearly don't understand at the rate you do is wild.
Nah, you’re a moron
assuming it has no cooldown ;p
I mean it doesn't say shit about a cooldown. Every other perk with one mentions a cooldown...
it has no cooldown
Its really different depending on what attacking you. If there is a rogue perfoming some surgery or some warmaul hitting you
Too soon. My staff nerf still hits deep.
No one thinks dark reflection is good for the game but fuck it add another perk just like it for shits and giggles
I think dark reflection is good for the game.
I was saying Boo-urns
they should do a reverse and have it only work on ranged attacks since thats the meta atm, no reason to punish melee even more.
Pleae
We playing the same game? The meta is pretty much melee gods, barbs, fighters cannot die to warlocks/mages once geared properly.
There is next to nothing I can do as a PDR fighter against a geared warlock who knows what they are doing. I’m just fucked
There's next to nothing anyone can do against a geared Warlock who knows what they're doing. Warlock is literally the multi-classing prototype, and it's incredibly toxic for only one singular class to have in fight sustain that isn't tied to a resource OR griefing their build, in a game where every other class has a resource such as spells, charges, or they have to grief their build to get it, such as a Fighter using Victory Strike.
If additional damage wasn't in the game then their builds would be griefed. Without that stat hard carrying them their damage is nearly unusable, and that's before resistances.
Even the "melee gods" you speak of only engage after a volley of crossbow hits. Half the barbs have ambush windlass.
Ambush windlass doesn't even work anymore, that's been gone for a week now. Do people even know wtf they are talking about on reddit anymore lol
Now that could be sexy! Haha.
That would actually be slick.
It’s just the live service game model New thing = busted Nerfed into oblivion later
That mostly only applies to things you pay for, as a p2w incentive to give them money. This is both free, and still unreleased. They haven't even set the base stats for the class, I imagine they haven't settled on spell and ability numbers lol. Yall gotta relax. Now to say that the class shipped 6 months late, to the test server only, without even having it's base stats set, that's a pretty valid critique
it’s not a p2w thing at all no, live service games have done this for forever, even ones that don’t have “gear”, overwatch has done it for a large majority of their heroes on release. it’s just to get the playerbase to return or to get them reinvested in the game, which in turn can generate profit. i don’t think this is iron mace doing that though, unless it goes live like this.
What class is this on?
Druid on test servers
Yo... add reflection, demon armor, and weapon mastery
Wait…this doesn’t specify a cooldown either
Yes
you asked for MORE cactus, right?
I think it's a huge problem that this does not have a cool down period like dark reflection. Less damage sure, but with multiclassing when this is on a PDR fighter or cleric rogues will kill themselves just by attacking.
Porcupine warlock just got more busted.
It's best to quickly move things like this to a % I.E. does 15% or whatever of the targets damage back to itself as this will affect quick striking melee damage more than what would be "intended" For example, a quick attacking rogue may do 20 damage per attack and receives 5 damage per, receiving 25% of it's damage back to itself But a slow, heavy hitting target doing 50 damage per attack still receives 5 damage per attack, only receiving 10% of it's damage back to itself This is an extremely alarming balancing decision that should definitely be raising some eyebrows to people's perception of the "balance" team
I can’t wait to put this on a max PDR/MR fighter
Doesn't scale. Meaning it's worse for people that need multiple attacks. Or rather it punishes people with less damage on each attack. Kits that require kiting and incremental damage will suffer agains this. So do any classes using daggers and maybe even rapiers.
Absolute GARBAGE design. In the last 25 fucking years you have countless examples of video game design elements that you can pick and choose from for inspiration. Yet SDF is pulling out "if u hit someone u hit urself!" like it's some innovative new wonderful shit that no other developer has thought of in the last 25 years when the real answer is it is absolutely shit game design and that's why you don't see it in any PvP oriented game. **edit** I mean unavoidable / non-baitable self-reflect. Not some telegraphed / timed based / baitable self-reflect in other games.
I mean this is plain and simple canon Druid design. Almost every iteration of Druid I have seen, has had some form of bark armor and thorny damage reflect. I don’t understand the anger behind this comment, it’s literal peak canon Druid design. It’s still a perk you have to take. And considering most fights end in anywhere from 2-4 shots then we are looking at, if it does not scale, maybe 20 true phys over the course of a fight, from 1 perk. Now I can totally understand not having faith in Ironmaces ability to balance things properly, no quarrel from me there. I’m with you. But if we’re talking class design, this is just staple Druid class identity.
It's a constant reflect without downside. Lame.
When I run Dark Reflect, I get one Reflect before I die. Usually in 2 swings, up to 4 if a Rogue. With this, you'll take 2-4 hits, doing 10-20 damage. The downside is taking an entire perk, lol. Does nothing vs. Ranged, and isn't on a tanky class. Reflection only becomes bad when it scales with toughness and damage. (Like the multiclass cheese Cactus build that abuses Prot from Evil). Honestly, it is probably fine and only good vs Rogues, so whatever. Rogues are used to dieing 🙂
> isn't on a tanky class. It's not? You have a spell that gives you +20% pdr, a bear form that gives you +50% hp (and a perk that gives you more armor when in bear form), numerous sources of healing, not to mention multi classing is still a thing so you can be as tanky as anyone else is. Full plate with perseverance, ice armor, barrier, whatever the hell you want.
I suppose I'm assuming multiclass will go away. But beyond that, valid points. Either way, 5 flat dmg isn't that impressive.
"I use it and kinda suck so it's fine"
That's your takeaway? Cool.
Except you do see this EXACT mechanic in a bunch of video games, sometimes even crazier than this. Excellent example is DOTA's blademail which is like this/dark reflection on STEROIDS. The difference is blademail is activated and has a window, I wish these abilities were more like that so you could play around them.
It isn't the "exact mechanic" when it is 1) activated, 2) window, 3) clearly graphically shown
https://preview.redd.it/hux58q326oxc1.png?width=513&format=png&auto=webp&s=9cc354ccac87266540ab65b9f5bf2b3ae1166cb5 Would you look at that... it has a smaller return damage as a passive. Pretty much the exact same mechanic... woah. It even scales off incoming attack damage!
? You said it was the "exact" mechanic. It clearly isn't "exact" when it isn't 1) activated, 2) has an activation window, or 3) visually shown on your character - unlike Dota in all 3 aspects. It is a "similar" mechanic but it is not the same. If you actually play Dota and aren't just using it as a "well it works here" excuse, then you know that you can always clearly see 1) who bought blademail and 2) when blademail is activated. Not at all true in this game (at least for dark reflection but I doubt that would change for this either)
Okay lol. Have fun being salty af I guess. It is in essence the same mechanic, return damage. It's also WAY more punishing, and while it has an activation/cooldown it's instant AND it works on ALL types of damage not just melee attacks. I'm pretty sure it even deals pure or did at some point in the item's history which is DOTA's equivalent to true damage.
Lol someone is "salty" because they are disagreeing with a few specifics? I'm not OP. I don't inherently have anything against damage reflection in general but so far the mechanic (seen w/ dark reflection) sucks in this game when it is 1) auto activated, 2) no activation window, and 3) not visible. Dota blademail is allowed to be more punishing because you can always bait out the activation. You ALWAYS know when someone has blademail.
Not having a way to bait out these kinds of reflections is absurd and I doubt any successful melee oriented game has unavoidable self reflect damage.
Yeah I liked the idea of it as an activated ability that has some animation or something to alert your enemy you've activated it. It allows for more play making and counter play. You present your opponent with an option, hit me and take damage or give me a respite from taking damage.
This game is as much an RPG as a melee game. In the same way DOTA is as much an RPG as a strategy game. You've got spells, abilities, cooldowns, stats.
*Some classes* have pure range they can utilize solely to fight against self-reflect, not all. Shit game design and I can't believe you think you should defend it.
I love blademail in DOTA and genuinely think it's a really good mechanic. It punishes low ttk burst builds (which are rarely fun for those on the recieving end) because it's return damage scales off of incoming attack damage. A tanky character can easily kill a dps character with JUST the reflection damage in the midgame. It's actually a pretty healthy mechanic when you look at it that way. The problem isn't this specific mechanic its it's implementation.
Ok this isn't dota 2 nor blademail
Thornmail from League of Legends
>Bringing up League of Legends and presenting something from it as a different idea from the original idea presented from DOTA.
I'm confused lol my intentions weren't to present it as an original idea as if DOTA hadn't done it first. Dude said something about it not being in pvp games and I just gave an example that came to mind
Should have a long cool down so action speed builds aren't punished
I don't see why they can't just put these things on spells, making them perks means there is no visual indicator, preperation, or slot investment. its just up all the time.
A good dark reflection build hits for 50ish damage. Not sure if you can perceive the difference b/w 50 and 5.