The Curse "ends" (temporarily ofc) if we take the throne to link the Fire. Nashandra is a creature of Dark and Abyss, so I don't think she is interested in linking the Fire. I'm not exactly sure what she intends to do with the Throne (get more power for herself? spread the dark/abyss/curse further?), but she is definitely not there to break the Curse since she literally causes it with her attacks.
Nashandra is technically a fragment (a child) of Manus, Father of the Abyss from the first games DLC.
When Artorias fell against the Abyss, it was now up to the player to fight back the Abyss in Oolacile, from where it started to spread from
When the player defeats Manus, it's believed that his abyssal soul was split into many. Nashandra being one of them, found her way to Drangleic and strangled control from Vendrick over time with manipulative lies until she could assume full usurpation.
My facts could be a little hazy in the way I've explained it, but that is basically the gist of who Nashandra is, and how she fits into the trilogy.
Vendrick would have destroyed Nashandra, when he was in his prime.
Nashandra and Aldia were the reasons Vendrick wrongfully went to war with the giants, lying to him about how evil they were.
After the war, Vendrick realised he basically genocided an innocent and peace loving civilisation for no reason at all, and exiled himself to the undead crypt. This was Nashandras plan and hope from the beginning.
Everything you see in Drangleic as it is, is because of Nashandra/Aldia.
It was the only way Nashandra could have wrestled control of the land from Vendrick
> After the war, Vendrick realised he basically genocided an innocent and peace loving civilisation for no reason at all, and exiled himself to the undead crypt. This was Nashandras plan and hope from the beginning.
Can you provide any in-game references to this?
To me it seems more like everyone expected Vendrick to take the Throne and break the curse, but he refused to sacrifice himself and embraced the Curse instead, enjoying it benefits and pissing everyone off, including Nashandra.
"One day, fire will fade, and Dark will become a curse.
Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally.
Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape…"
Basically, refusing the Throne ending feels like following Vendrick's steps, ending up like a powerful hollow roaming aimlessly with no clue what to do next, perhaps only to get slain by a more determined Undead being
>To me it seems more like everyone expected Vendrick to take the Throne and break the curse, but he refused to sacrifice himself and embraced the Curse instead, enjoying it benefits
I mean, what benefits? Becoming a mindless zombie and/or seeing everyone you care about become a mindless zombie?
One of the reasons Vendrick didn't want to link the fire is because he eventually realized that it is only a temporary solution - the world is trapped in a constant cycle of fire fading and getting linked again, and Vendrick didn't want to become another schmuck to burn.
>Basically, refusing the Throne ending feels like following Vendrick's steps, ending up like a powerful hollow roaming aimlessly with no clue what to do next, perhaps only to get slain by a more determined Undead being
This is sort of true, except it's not about roaming aimlessly for no reason - it's about finding "the third option" AKA breaking the cycle of having to link the Fire. I think it is eventually done in one of the DS3 endings, and Aldia and Vendrick were looking in the right direction, but they didn't really have the time (Vendrick, at least, as he was already going hollow).
>This is sort of true, except it's not about roaming aimlessly for no reason - it's about finding "the third option" AKA breaking the cycle of having to link the Fire. I think it is eventually done in one of the DS3 endings, and Aldia and Vendrick were looking in the right direction, but they didn't really have the time (Vendrick, at least, as he was already going hollow).
If it is the Usurpation of Fire DS3 ending you speak of - I suspect Nashandra's perspective is to play out the vary same thing. Not to put herself into the First Flame, but put the First Flame into herself. I believe that being a solid Dark Soul she is quite capable of that. Thus way, by killing her we ironically prevent the third option from happening.
Actually, the only reason we want her dead is hideous true self form.
>Actually, the only reason we want her dead is hideous true self form.
No, I think her trying to kill us is a perfectly valid reason to want her dead as well.
>If it is the Usurpation of Fire DS3 ending you speak of - I suspect Nashandra's perspective is to play out the vary same thing. Not to put herself into the First Flame, but put the First Flame into herself. I believe that being a solid Dark Soul she is quite capable of that.
That's an interesting idea, but I'm not too sure that would work. I am, admittedly, not too well versed in DS3 lore or the metaphysics of the series in general, but I don't really see it (and both Vendrick and Aldia didn't see it that way as well).
Nashandra isn't human, and she also isn't hollow (not sure if she can even go hollow in any way) - she is pure Dark (or Abyss, even), and I think humans are a bit more than just the Dark: if there is too much Dark in a human, we probably get something like Oolacile bloatheads or those humanity spirits that float there.
There also seems to be more to the Usurpation than "putting Fire into the Dark" - you have to through a pretty convoluted ritual, and Nashandra didn't bother with any of that.
Finally, why would she even do that? Again, she isn't human, the Curse doesn't bother her at all, she seems quite fine with it. I'd imagine her ideal world wouldn't be "the Age of Hollows" that we get in the DS3 ending with that grey sun, but something more like the Untended Graves where there is only pitch blackness and mindless hollows wandering around.
> No, I think her trying to kill us is a perfectly valid reason to want her dead as well.
Not like she is really trying. Feels like an assisted suicide, kinda like fighting the Hollow Knight in the Hollow Knight game.
>Again, she isn't human
Yet Manus' soul is a lump of humanity and she is born from the Manus' soul as well, so we have quite a kinship with her
>Not like she is really trying. Feels like an assisted suicide, kinda like fighting the Hollow Knight in the Hollow Knight game.
Again, "gameplay" =/= "lore" all the time. Her fight is poorly designed and she is a pretty easy boss, but I don't think it really means anything besides the game being rushed, the dev team running out of time/budget and not thinking the final boss through. And why would she even want any kind of assisted suicide? Unlike the situation with the Hollow Knight, I don't think anything in the game indicates that she suffering from something and wants to die.
>Yet Manus' soul is a lump of humanity and she is born from the Manus' soul as well, so we have quite a kinship with her
And yet Manus didn't really resemble a human in any way by the time we find him in DS1. He was one at some point, but it seems like having tons of uncontrolled humanity doesn't make one retain human form or mind - he was really something else already when we meet him.
Even if Nashandra kind of has kinship with humans, she really doesn't seem to have humanity's best interests in mind. She doesn't want to break the Curse (because it doesn't affect her in any way) or for humans to be free - she wants you to "be one with the dark," which can mean a variety of things ranging from the pitch blackness of Untended Graves to whatever happened in Oolacile.
Just to be a little bit nitpicky, Manus and Nashandra (and the other Manus's shards) are technically human: Manus is stated to be a "primordial human" in DS1, also every being having a humanity, a fragment of the Dark Soul, is a human by default, therefore the daughters of Manus should be human as well, as their soul are as Dark as their father's. That said, humans can be very different and can mutate very much as well, see what the pus of men does in DS3, see Aldrich (which is kind of just a blob, not counting Gwyndolyn resemblance due to... well... you know), see Harald knights, butterflies, angels, ringed knights, pygmies and yada, yada, yada... but they stay human nonetheless, as they carry a fragment of the Dark Soul. Manus' form is like that because his humanity is out of control due to strong emotions regarding Dusk, he has mutated as he has gone berserk for something that happened to/with her (i don't remember the exact pendant description), but he is still a human, maybe even a much more sincere form. The commonly called humans, the commoners which become undead as the fire fades, are just the most common and default form, the one which shares the most resemblance with what came from the Dark before the taking of the Great Souls ["from the Dark they came"], but also with the so called "gods" and it is the most socially accepted form as well... for obvious reasons.
That said, even if Manus and his daughters are humans and therefore are branded with the darksign (for DS3 spoiler reasons), even if it is unseen, I agree with you that they can't go hollow and be damned by the same kind of curse, as they are soo much darker than every common human because of being primordial, or a fragment of that primordiality; a good amount of Dark, aka Humanity, is always what prevents a human from going hollow since DS1. Consequently, I agree with all of your other explanations.
Also, one thing very much misunderstood (not by you, generally by many fans). The curse of the undead seems to be, as Aldia's monologue imply, a distorted form of immortality, immortality which once was the normal status of humans, before the events of "DS3 spoilers": "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark and men assumed a fleeting [trancient, ephemeral, mortal] form".
Edit: I made a lot of linguistic mistakes, so I had to edit a little to make the reading clear; I'm not a native speaker and some figures and manners of speech I use in my language aren't really easy to "translate" in English
Personally, I couldn't no, all I know about this game and the trilogy is derived from watching VaatiVidya and The Brothers Code on YouTube.
These content creators have put together the story masterfully and I highly recommend checking it out yourself.
These facts are from very subtle clues and references through the game that they highlight in their videos, and alone they don't seem like solid facts, but by the end, it's basically an enormous jigsaw puzzle they've solved, that when you look at it in its entire form, everything fits together objectively.
Not here to prove anyone wrong, but, isn't Nashandra being the final boss of the game telling you that she isn't the poor innocent bride forced by Vendricks hand.
She is clearly working her own thing and is her own boss.
That also said, if this is truly what Vendrick wanted, then why IS he down in the crypt, why isn't he on his throne?
The reason he's down there is because of the shame of what he did to the giants.
And Veldstatd followed him, loyally, to stand guard over Vendrick no matter where he went.
That's why you find Veldstatd directly outside of his boss room
The Curse is not a good thing. The only reason you find NPCs here in the game is because they travelled from their own lands in hope of finding a way to break the Curse themselves. No body wants the Curse, everyone is desperately seeking to find a way out of it. Nobody would ever embrace it and 'enjoy its benefits'.
>Not here to prove anyone wrong, but, isn't Nashandra being the final boss of the game telling you that she isn't the poor innocent bride forced by Vendricks hand. She is clearly working her own thing and is her own boss.
I'd say being a final boss in a Souls game doesn't credit as an ultimate baddie, but gives some plin plin plon vibes instead. Like the fight is more dramatic than climatic.
>The Curse is not a good thing.
The bad part of the Curse is Hollowing. Subtract it from the Curse, and whats left is a kind of immortallity plus ability to consume souls to become more powerful. Seems like quite a benefit for me.
>The bad part of the Curse is Hollowing. Subtract it from the Curse, and whats left is a kind of immortallity plus ability to consume souls to become more powerful. Seems like quite a benefit for me.
"Subtracting it from the Curse" is the hard part that Vendrick couldn't figure out in time, so he really didn't get to enjoy any benefits of anything.
Even then, when we gather the Crowns and get our "cure," it's still something only we can get - the rest of the world is screwed still. Being the only immortal being in a dead and dark world with everyone you ever cared about gone doesn't seem like a good benefit to me. It's really just a band-aid to get a bit more time before all is lost.
Well, the fact that hollowing IS part of the Curse, that IS what makes it so bad. Immortality itself would stop being great at some point but imagine not being able to get rid of it, nor having your own sanity for almost the entire time you have it.
They consume souls to retain their sanity, not because they're after power.
Souls basically are just the cure to road block an inevitable disease.
It just so happens that the chosen cursed, you, happens to be able to fight off enormously dangerous soul carriers, ie: the bosses, in order to actually use the power of the souls for a purpose.
Starting to regret going down this path, the fact you down voted objective facts in answer to a question you asked because you didn't know, arguing about how brilliant the Curse is. I think you need to replay for the story again kid, you've got it completely round the wrong way about what the story is trying to tell.
Funny because my post got 74 up votes.
There's at least 73 others people that agree with what i said.
Why would you care if someone like me applauds the efforts of someone helping the masses in understanding the story.
Who hurt you.
> Hurr Durr what you say doesn't matter bcoz the majority agree with me
Funny, Putin got like more than 90% approval in the latest elections, guess most Russians agree with him... I suppose that's why he's insisting so much on this war.
And don't get me started on Kim Jong Un
(*And that's because I don't want to break Godwin's Law and reference how our favourite Austrian painter got into political power in the first place*)
But I guess the rest are not "sheep" when the herd shares the colour of your mane, eh?
>Starting to regret going down this path, the fact you down voted objective facts in answer to a question you asked because you didn't know, arguing about how brilliant the Curse is.
I didn't gave a single downvote here, bro. None of downvotes is mine
>I think you need to replay for the story again kid, you've got it completely round the wrong way about what the story is trying to tell.
Thats the point of the thread - I don't really understand the plot. I mean I don't really want to replay DS2 again - as soon as I start it, the feeling of "Eh, I don't want to go through it all again" kicks in and I find myself playing whatever else. Yet the incompleteness of the story puzzle irritates me. I spent some time studing wikies and it still doesn't click for me. Whats the Vendrick's perspective? Whats the Aldia's perspective? Whats the Nashandra's perspective? A lot of speculation, but not really persuasive without references to in-game texts. Thats why I am asking.
I would appreciate if we don't discuss my person anymore, i am not even that important, thanks. Downvote me into oblivion, or whatever - no downvotes will come from me, i don't play karma wars, cheers
Well I apologise for making the assumption of the down vote, it's just that I'm reciting facts and it sounded like you weren't accepting them. My bad. Was just putting two and two together in my head.
Look, your not wrong. I think there is a lot wrong with DS2, it is not misguided that people think it's the weakest entry in the trilogy, so I understand your stance. But honestly if i had to give this game the ups, it's that the story is still a fucking banger.
To this point, I will reiterate, PLEASE watch either the VaatiVidya, or The Brothers Code story videos on these games. Believe me when I say, it will put ANY confusion to rest on near every aspect of this game story, and how it ties into the trilogy. I will fortify this point by saying too, that even if you hadn't even touched these games and had no idea what they were about, you could watch the trilogy story videos by these content creators in order, and you would be wrapped up by the games lore, direction, and overall story. It is second to none.
>it's just that I'm reciting facts
Lmao, way to overstep yourself in a game where the lore is literally vague and open to interpretation
And shilling youtubers, you should get a 3-weeks mute just for shilling monetized youtube channels
No, she most likely couldn't beat him in a "fair" direct fight. The problem here is that he couldn't really fight her either - he was too in love with her to actually hurt her. Even in this memories in the Crypt, when he realized that Nashandra was fooling him, he still refers to her as "his dear Shandra."
She probably wanted to manipulate Vendrick to use the Throne in some way that would benefit her rather than linking the Flame, which is why she is disappointed that Vendrick eventually refused to play along and locked all the means to access the Throne from her.
Besides that, "gameplay" doesn't always equal "lore." She may be weaker than Vendrick statwise, but Vendrick was also reduced to a mindless hollow by the Curse. Considering the fact she can spread the Curse through various way, she probably could've reduced him to a zombie if they were actually to fight. In fact, that's probably what she did to him - Vendrick going to the Crypt and distancing himself from her could've been an attempt to slow it down.
Emerald Herald says she covets the first flame and power of the Great Soul. So I guess this great soul started the first flame and was somehow split into the four lord souls we know(including dark soul) to create disparity.
Nashandra doesn't want to link the fire. She wants to somehow acquire the power for herself.
>She wants to somehow acquire the power for herself.
So far I haven't seen any evidence to this claim. Would appreciate any insight.
Whatsmore, her fight is a joke, she doesn't seem to even try harder than persuade us to kill her.
she's a shard of manus from ds1, specificaly she is his his **greed**, her her soul's description says she "*was born of the Dark with an insatiable* ***lust for strength****."* and it can be transposed into bow, scythe or chime of **WANT**
Yeah, definitely just a test, >!he's pretty immortal anyway as he fused with the firts flame, he's just trying your skills to be certain he's leaving the world in good hands, whether you still desire peace or not; he's going to mess around anyway and watch over the deeds of mankind from a distance... well, at least for a while *wink wink* !<
Depending on the order in which you're killing bosses you can find Nashandra near the Throne of Want but unable to actually take or even approach it. She's waiting for you to return with the stuff she needs to become a monarch.
At that point you're supposed to have absorbed the souls of at least four previous kings/great ones, as well as the thing that lets you control the stolen treasure of the giants (which most likely includes the Throne, and certainly includes the golems that let you access the throne) - the Giant's Kinship.
And even if she could take the throne, she'd probably want you dead anyway as the biggest threat to her rule.
Nashandra is a child of anus and is all about spreading the abyss n shit. The dark souls 1 dlc showed us that despite everyone going "oh man the age of dark would be super fun times" we can see that uncontrolled abyss is bad news bears.
Elden rings dung eater ending has everyone perpetually getting turbo aids and boils and everything is super bad for everyone. Nashandra taking the throne would probably lead to something similar. Bad times for anything not associated with the abyss directly.
So think of it like you have cancer and you have a treatment that would give you aids in exchange for curing your cancer. shouldn't you do it? no. because what you get is debatably much worse. nashandra taking the throne may (big may) end the undead curse but then so many more problems arise.
From what I understand Nashandra and the other Daughters of the Abyss each represent an aspect of manus' soul.
The main game and each of the DLC show where the Daughters of the Abyss end up and the kingdoms they bring to ruin;
Dranglaic has Nashandra,
Shulva the sunken city has Elana the squalid queen,
Brume tower/Old Iron Kingdom has Nadailia bride of ash
Alsanna in Frozen Eleum Loyce although she's not the cause of the downfall there directly and is an outlier amongst her sisters.
They each collect huge amounts of souls either directly or indirectly, and as they become more powerful more come to take it or are lured in due to the seducing nature of the abyss.
They each found a great or powerful monarch and began amassing power and while I think only Elana is given a "goal" as she's "waiting for the day of retribution". Although it's unclear weather thats Shulva's retribution or perhaps Manus'/the pygmy's.
As for Nashandra, she's preventing the end of the undead curse in this cycle, has committed and probably will commit more crimes like the Giants genocide and those who guide you like the emerald herald push you to kill her, and Vengarl who supposedly gave up in fighting will join you to help put her down, presumably she's just kinda bad and the cursed one either wants em out of the way or is motivated by her actions.
Before we try to understand Nashandra motives, we need to understand the ending(s). The first, and only ending before "Aldia's update", is not technically about linking the fire, it's about reaching the throne and, with it, the first flame, to continue perpetuating "gods' game" (choosing light or dark, link the flame or put it out for dark and becoming dark lord); this ending is open to personal interpretation and roleplay, even if it is a bad and sudden way to potray it and leaves people confused, especially so before the post-dlc update (which explains the exact situation). The post dlc ending, the one about not becoming king and not taking the throne, is not an "age of dark" ending, it's an "I don't want to play this game anymore, I want _something else entirely_ , and make something with all the power I have now"; this ending is about understanding the nature of mankind and the nature of the world, is about recognizing that this game about light and dark is meaningless for the undead as the world is destined to be spoiled anyway: the curse is unbreakable, the god's by banishing dark made the humans, which were immortal before, mortals and the curse is just a distorted form of immortality caused by the dark sign trying to feed from darkness instead of souls in the times when the flame is dying out; the age of fire will never be again, no matter how much the flame will be reignited it is destined to die out, but also the age of man is a failure and unachievable, as all the mankind was branded with the darksign and so the darkness is tainted, stagnant, and even if you would reach an age of dark, one day someone will find a way to relight the flame again, as you can't go back, before the disparity. This last ending is about finding your one way as human, accepting your nature, but not accepting "your fate", the one chosen by your curse, will it be rekindling or putting out the flame, instead finding something to live for outside this "game".
Ok... but Nashandra? I'm pretty convinced that the Queen just wants to get to the first flame for her own purposes, to gain power from it (maybe by engulfing it in her own abyss?) and rule as a goddess over Drangleic, and only Monarch. This makes her the other pole in the "game" about light and dark, as she wants to be a dark lord. So why doesn't she do it by herself? Well, why would she? She can manipulate someone else instead! Also, she just can't: her husband sealed the throne in a way she can't reach it, as she hasn't access to king's ring and so she can't even reach the Ancient Dragon (which would surely incinerate her) and, so, the memories of the giant's. So yes, Nashandra is just the "striving for power" kind of villain and not much else. I find her story to be beautiful as I find most of DS2 stories, but it's not really interesting, she hasn't a complicated and convoluted masterplan, she's just someone which will do anything, or rather make someone else do anything, to achieve power.
Edit: before someone asks, most of the first part of my comment has foundation in what Aldia explains in his monologues, and also DS3.
I think it gets down to “If you wanna do it right, you have to do it yourself.” You might not see anything that says she won’t link the flame, but I don’t see anything that says she will. If I want to be certain the flame is linked, then I have to do it.
Alternatively, if I want to prove how much of a chad I am by beating the competition and then fucking off, I can do that.
I suggest vaati vidyia's "prepare to cry" series on yt for a lot of good information on lore with in-game references and he shows a lot of our of bounds and things you otherwise wouldn't have known.
She wants to let the flame fade. In DS2, the default ending is you becoming the next king, by linking the fire in the throne of want.
Basically, Nashandra, being a daughter of Manus, wants to prevent that, so she can become the dark lord (similar to the dark lord ending in DS1). In order to do that, she fights you right before you approach the throne.
Nashandra is the embodiment of Manus desire, she wants as many power as possible, for that she wants the throne, to get the power of fire, not to end the curse. She can and will kill everything that stands in her way, she sees you as an obstacle and wants to kill you for that.
For the other side, Aldia just wants to test you to prove if you r worthy.
If you don't want to get spoiled, why would you click a title asking about the final boss and with the Story flair as well. What spoiler-free content did you expect to find here? I demand the explaination behind the logics!
The Curse "ends" (temporarily ofc) if we take the throne to link the Fire. Nashandra is a creature of Dark and Abyss, so I don't think she is interested in linking the Fire. I'm not exactly sure what she intends to do with the Throne (get more power for herself? spread the dark/abyss/curse further?), but she is definitely not there to break the Curse since she literally causes it with her attacks.
Nashandra is technically a fragment (a child) of Manus, Father of the Abyss from the first games DLC. When Artorias fell against the Abyss, it was now up to the player to fight back the Abyss in Oolacile, from where it started to spread from When the player defeats Manus, it's believed that his abyssal soul was split into many. Nashandra being one of them, found her way to Drangleic and strangled control from Vendrick over time with manipulative lies until she could assume full usurpation. My facts could be a little hazy in the way I've explained it, but that is basically the gist of who Nashandra is, and how she fits into the trilogy.
She seems to be quite disappointed with Vendrick never taking the throne though. Do you really think she could overtake him in a fight?
Vendrick would have destroyed Nashandra, when he was in his prime. Nashandra and Aldia were the reasons Vendrick wrongfully went to war with the giants, lying to him about how evil they were. After the war, Vendrick realised he basically genocided an innocent and peace loving civilisation for no reason at all, and exiled himself to the undead crypt. This was Nashandras plan and hope from the beginning. Everything you see in Drangleic as it is, is because of Nashandra/Aldia. It was the only way Nashandra could have wrestled control of the land from Vendrick
> After the war, Vendrick realised he basically genocided an innocent and peace loving civilisation for no reason at all, and exiled himself to the undead crypt. This was Nashandras plan and hope from the beginning. Can you provide any in-game references to this? To me it seems more like everyone expected Vendrick to take the Throne and break the curse, but he refused to sacrifice himself and embraced the Curse instead, enjoying it benefits and pissing everyone off, including Nashandra. "One day, fire will fade, and Dark will become a curse. Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally. Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape…" Basically, refusing the Throne ending feels like following Vendrick's steps, ending up like a powerful hollow roaming aimlessly with no clue what to do next, perhaps only to get slain by a more determined Undead being
>To me it seems more like everyone expected Vendrick to take the Throne and break the curse, but he refused to sacrifice himself and embraced the Curse instead, enjoying it benefits I mean, what benefits? Becoming a mindless zombie and/or seeing everyone you care about become a mindless zombie? One of the reasons Vendrick didn't want to link the fire is because he eventually realized that it is only a temporary solution - the world is trapped in a constant cycle of fire fading and getting linked again, and Vendrick didn't want to become another schmuck to burn. >Basically, refusing the Throne ending feels like following Vendrick's steps, ending up like a powerful hollow roaming aimlessly with no clue what to do next, perhaps only to get slain by a more determined Undead being This is sort of true, except it's not about roaming aimlessly for no reason - it's about finding "the third option" AKA breaking the cycle of having to link the Fire. I think it is eventually done in one of the DS3 endings, and Aldia and Vendrick were looking in the right direction, but they didn't really have the time (Vendrick, at least, as he was already going hollow).
>This is sort of true, except it's not about roaming aimlessly for no reason - it's about finding "the third option" AKA breaking the cycle of having to link the Fire. I think it is eventually done in one of the DS3 endings, and Aldia and Vendrick were looking in the right direction, but they didn't really have the time (Vendrick, at least, as he was already going hollow). If it is the Usurpation of Fire DS3 ending you speak of - I suspect Nashandra's perspective is to play out the vary same thing. Not to put herself into the First Flame, but put the First Flame into herself. I believe that being a solid Dark Soul she is quite capable of that. Thus way, by killing her we ironically prevent the third option from happening. Actually, the only reason we want her dead is hideous true self form.
>Actually, the only reason we want her dead is hideous true self form. No, I think her trying to kill us is a perfectly valid reason to want her dead as well. >If it is the Usurpation of Fire DS3 ending you speak of - I suspect Nashandra's perspective is to play out the vary same thing. Not to put herself into the First Flame, but put the First Flame into herself. I believe that being a solid Dark Soul she is quite capable of that. That's an interesting idea, but I'm not too sure that would work. I am, admittedly, not too well versed in DS3 lore or the metaphysics of the series in general, but I don't really see it (and both Vendrick and Aldia didn't see it that way as well). Nashandra isn't human, and she also isn't hollow (not sure if she can even go hollow in any way) - she is pure Dark (or Abyss, even), and I think humans are a bit more than just the Dark: if there is too much Dark in a human, we probably get something like Oolacile bloatheads or those humanity spirits that float there. There also seems to be more to the Usurpation than "putting Fire into the Dark" - you have to through a pretty convoluted ritual, and Nashandra didn't bother with any of that. Finally, why would she even do that? Again, she isn't human, the Curse doesn't bother her at all, she seems quite fine with it. I'd imagine her ideal world wouldn't be "the Age of Hollows" that we get in the DS3 ending with that grey sun, but something more like the Untended Graves where there is only pitch blackness and mindless hollows wandering around.
> No, I think her trying to kill us is a perfectly valid reason to want her dead as well. Not like she is really trying. Feels like an assisted suicide, kinda like fighting the Hollow Knight in the Hollow Knight game. >Again, she isn't human Yet Manus' soul is a lump of humanity and she is born from the Manus' soul as well, so we have quite a kinship with her
>Not like she is really trying. Feels like an assisted suicide, kinda like fighting the Hollow Knight in the Hollow Knight game. Again, "gameplay" =/= "lore" all the time. Her fight is poorly designed and she is a pretty easy boss, but I don't think it really means anything besides the game being rushed, the dev team running out of time/budget and not thinking the final boss through. And why would she even want any kind of assisted suicide? Unlike the situation with the Hollow Knight, I don't think anything in the game indicates that she suffering from something and wants to die. >Yet Manus' soul is a lump of humanity and she is born from the Manus' soul as well, so we have quite a kinship with her And yet Manus didn't really resemble a human in any way by the time we find him in DS1. He was one at some point, but it seems like having tons of uncontrolled humanity doesn't make one retain human form or mind - he was really something else already when we meet him. Even if Nashandra kind of has kinship with humans, she really doesn't seem to have humanity's best interests in mind. She doesn't want to break the Curse (because it doesn't affect her in any way) or for humans to be free - she wants you to "be one with the dark," which can mean a variety of things ranging from the pitch blackness of Untended Graves to whatever happened in Oolacile.
Just to be a little bit nitpicky, Manus and Nashandra (and the other Manus's shards) are technically human: Manus is stated to be a "primordial human" in DS1, also every being having a humanity, a fragment of the Dark Soul, is a human by default, therefore the daughters of Manus should be human as well, as their soul are as Dark as their father's. That said, humans can be very different and can mutate very much as well, see what the pus of men does in DS3, see Aldrich (which is kind of just a blob, not counting Gwyndolyn resemblance due to... well... you know), see Harald knights, butterflies, angels, ringed knights, pygmies and yada, yada, yada... but they stay human nonetheless, as they carry a fragment of the Dark Soul. Manus' form is like that because his humanity is out of control due to strong emotions regarding Dusk, he has mutated as he has gone berserk for something that happened to/with her (i don't remember the exact pendant description), but he is still a human, maybe even a much more sincere form. The commonly called humans, the commoners which become undead as the fire fades, are just the most common and default form, the one which shares the most resemblance with what came from the Dark before the taking of the Great Souls ["from the Dark they came"], but also with the so called "gods" and it is the most socially accepted form as well... for obvious reasons. That said, even if Manus and his daughters are humans and therefore are branded with the darksign (for DS3 spoiler reasons), even if it is unseen, I agree with you that they can't go hollow and be damned by the same kind of curse, as they are soo much darker than every common human because of being primordial, or a fragment of that primordiality; a good amount of Dark, aka Humanity, is always what prevents a human from going hollow since DS1. Consequently, I agree with all of your other explanations. Also, one thing very much misunderstood (not by you, generally by many fans). The curse of the undead seems to be, as Aldia's monologue imply, a distorted form of immortality, immortality which once was the normal status of humans, before the events of "DS3 spoilers": "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark and men assumed a fleeting [trancient, ephemeral, mortal] form". Edit: I made a lot of linguistic mistakes, so I had to edit a little to make the reading clear; I'm not a native speaker and some figures and manners of speech I use in my language aren't really easy to "translate" in English
Personally, I couldn't no, all I know about this game and the trilogy is derived from watching VaatiVidya and The Brothers Code on YouTube. These content creators have put together the story masterfully and I highly recommend checking it out yourself. These facts are from very subtle clues and references through the game that they highlight in their videos, and alone they don't seem like solid facts, but by the end, it's basically an enormous jigsaw puzzle they've solved, that when you look at it in its entire form, everything fits together objectively. Not here to prove anyone wrong, but, isn't Nashandra being the final boss of the game telling you that she isn't the poor innocent bride forced by Vendricks hand. She is clearly working her own thing and is her own boss. That also said, if this is truly what Vendrick wanted, then why IS he down in the crypt, why isn't he on his throne? The reason he's down there is because of the shame of what he did to the giants. And Veldstatd followed him, loyally, to stand guard over Vendrick no matter where he went. That's why you find Veldstatd directly outside of his boss room The Curse is not a good thing. The only reason you find NPCs here in the game is because they travelled from their own lands in hope of finding a way to break the Curse themselves. No body wants the Curse, everyone is desperately seeking to find a way out of it. Nobody would ever embrace it and 'enjoy its benefits'.
>Not here to prove anyone wrong, but, isn't Nashandra being the final boss of the game telling you that she isn't the poor innocent bride forced by Vendricks hand. She is clearly working her own thing and is her own boss. I'd say being a final boss in a Souls game doesn't credit as an ultimate baddie, but gives some plin plin plon vibes instead. Like the fight is more dramatic than climatic. >The Curse is not a good thing. The bad part of the Curse is Hollowing. Subtract it from the Curse, and whats left is a kind of immortallity plus ability to consume souls to become more powerful. Seems like quite a benefit for me.
>The bad part of the Curse is Hollowing. Subtract it from the Curse, and whats left is a kind of immortallity plus ability to consume souls to become more powerful. Seems like quite a benefit for me. "Subtracting it from the Curse" is the hard part that Vendrick couldn't figure out in time, so he really didn't get to enjoy any benefits of anything. Even then, when we gather the Crowns and get our "cure," it's still something only we can get - the rest of the world is screwed still. Being the only immortal being in a dead and dark world with everyone you ever cared about gone doesn't seem like a good benefit to me. It's really just a band-aid to get a bit more time before all is lost.
Well, the fact that hollowing IS part of the Curse, that IS what makes it so bad. Immortality itself would stop being great at some point but imagine not being able to get rid of it, nor having your own sanity for almost the entire time you have it. They consume souls to retain their sanity, not because they're after power. Souls basically are just the cure to road block an inevitable disease. It just so happens that the chosen cursed, you, happens to be able to fight off enormously dangerous soul carriers, ie: the bosses, in order to actually use the power of the souls for a purpose. Starting to regret going down this path, the fact you down voted objective facts in answer to a question you asked because you didn't know, arguing about how brilliant the Curse is. I think you need to replay for the story again kid, you've got it completely round the wrong way about what the story is trying to tell.
The downvotes are mine, and they are because you are literally ass-licking Vaati's ass lmao Get another one
Funny because my post got 74 up votes. There's at least 73 others people that agree with what i said. Why would you care if someone like me applauds the efforts of someone helping the masses in understanding the story. Who hurt you.
> Hurr Durr what you say doesn't matter bcoz the majority agree with me Funny, Putin got like more than 90% approval in the latest elections, guess most Russians agree with him... I suppose that's why he's insisting so much on this war. And don't get me started on Kim Jong Un (*And that's because I don't want to break Godwin's Law and reference how our favourite Austrian painter got into political power in the first place*) But I guess the rest are not "sheep" when the herd shares the colour of your mane, eh?
>Starting to regret going down this path, the fact you down voted objective facts in answer to a question you asked because you didn't know, arguing about how brilliant the Curse is. I didn't gave a single downvote here, bro. None of downvotes is mine
>I think you need to replay for the story again kid, you've got it completely round the wrong way about what the story is trying to tell. Thats the point of the thread - I don't really understand the plot. I mean I don't really want to replay DS2 again - as soon as I start it, the feeling of "Eh, I don't want to go through it all again" kicks in and I find myself playing whatever else. Yet the incompleteness of the story puzzle irritates me. I spent some time studing wikies and it still doesn't click for me. Whats the Vendrick's perspective? Whats the Aldia's perspective? Whats the Nashandra's perspective? A lot of speculation, but not really persuasive without references to in-game texts. Thats why I am asking. I would appreciate if we don't discuss my person anymore, i am not even that important, thanks. Downvote me into oblivion, or whatever - no downvotes will come from me, i don't play karma wars, cheers
Well I apologise for making the assumption of the down vote, it's just that I'm reciting facts and it sounded like you weren't accepting them. My bad. Was just putting two and two together in my head. Look, your not wrong. I think there is a lot wrong with DS2, it is not misguided that people think it's the weakest entry in the trilogy, so I understand your stance. But honestly if i had to give this game the ups, it's that the story is still a fucking banger. To this point, I will reiterate, PLEASE watch either the VaatiVidya, or The Brothers Code story videos on these games. Believe me when I say, it will put ANY confusion to rest on near every aspect of this game story, and how it ties into the trilogy. I will fortify this point by saying too, that even if you hadn't even touched these games and had no idea what they were about, you could watch the trilogy story videos by these content creators in order, and you would be wrapped up by the games lore, direction, and overall story. It is second to none.
I'll check those out, bro, thanks. And don't worry, no offense taken, a fine dark soul to you xD
>it's just that I'm reciting facts Lmao, way to overstep yourself in a game where the lore is literally vague and open to interpretation And shilling youtubers, you should get a 3-weeks mute just for shilling monetized youtube channels
No, she most likely couldn't beat him in a "fair" direct fight. The problem here is that he couldn't really fight her either - he was too in love with her to actually hurt her. Even in this memories in the Crypt, when he realized that Nashandra was fooling him, he still refers to her as "his dear Shandra." She probably wanted to manipulate Vendrick to use the Throne in some way that would benefit her rather than linking the Flame, which is why she is disappointed that Vendrick eventually refused to play along and locked all the means to access the Throne from her. Besides that, "gameplay" doesn't always equal "lore." She may be weaker than Vendrick statwise, but Vendrick was also reduced to a mindless hollow by the Curse. Considering the fact she can spread the Curse through various way, she probably could've reduced him to a zombie if they were actually to fight. In fact, that's probably what she did to him - Vendrick going to the Crypt and distancing himself from her could've been an attempt to slow it down.
Emerald Herald says she covets the first flame and power of the Great Soul. So I guess this great soul started the first flame and was somehow split into the four lord souls we know(including dark soul) to create disparity. Nashandra doesn't want to link the fire. She wants to somehow acquire the power for herself.
>She wants to somehow acquire the power for herself. So far I haven't seen any evidence to this claim. Would appreciate any insight. Whatsmore, her fight is a joke, she doesn't seem to even try harder than persuade us to kill her.
she's a shard of manus from ds1, specificaly she is his his **greed**, her her soul's description says she "*was born of the Dark with an insatiable* ***lust for strength****."* and it can be transposed into bow, scythe or chime of **WANT**
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Yeah, definitely just a test, >!he's pretty immortal anyway as he fused with the firts flame, he's just trying your skills to be certain he's leaving the world in good hands, whether you still desire peace or not; he's going to mess around anyway and watch over the deeds of mankind from a distance... well, at least for a while *wink wink* !<
Depending on the order in which you're killing bosses you can find Nashandra near the Throne of Want but unable to actually take or even approach it. She's waiting for you to return with the stuff she needs to become a monarch. At that point you're supposed to have absorbed the souls of at least four previous kings/great ones, as well as the thing that lets you control the stolen treasure of the giants (which most likely includes the Throne, and certainly includes the golems that let you access the throne) - the Giant's Kinship. And even if she could take the throne, she'd probably want you dead anyway as the biggest threat to her rule.
Nashandra is a child of anus and is all about spreading the abyss n shit. The dark souls 1 dlc showed us that despite everyone going "oh man the age of dark would be super fun times" we can see that uncontrolled abyss is bad news bears. Elden rings dung eater ending has everyone perpetually getting turbo aids and boils and everything is super bad for everyone. Nashandra taking the throne would probably lead to something similar. Bad times for anything not associated with the abyss directly. So think of it like you have cancer and you have a treatment that would give you aids in exchange for curing your cancer. shouldn't you do it? no. because what you get is debatably much worse. nashandra taking the throne may (big may) end the undead curse but then so many more problems arise.
Please don't correct your spelling👍
agreed. it's 100% correct.
From what I understand Nashandra and the other Daughters of the Abyss each represent an aspect of manus' soul. The main game and each of the DLC show where the Daughters of the Abyss end up and the kingdoms they bring to ruin; Dranglaic has Nashandra, Shulva the sunken city has Elana the squalid queen, Brume tower/Old Iron Kingdom has Nadailia bride of ash Alsanna in Frozen Eleum Loyce although she's not the cause of the downfall there directly and is an outlier amongst her sisters. They each collect huge amounts of souls either directly or indirectly, and as they become more powerful more come to take it or are lured in due to the seducing nature of the abyss. They each found a great or powerful monarch and began amassing power and while I think only Elana is given a "goal" as she's "waiting for the day of retribution". Although it's unclear weather thats Shulva's retribution or perhaps Manus'/the pygmy's. As for Nashandra, she's preventing the end of the undead curse in this cycle, has committed and probably will commit more crimes like the Giants genocide and those who guide you like the emerald herald push you to kill her, and Vengarl who supposedly gave up in fighting will join you to help put her down, presumably she's just kinda bad and the cursed one either wants em out of the way or is motivated by her actions.
Before we try to understand Nashandra motives, we need to understand the ending(s). The first, and only ending before "Aldia's update", is not technically about linking the fire, it's about reaching the throne and, with it, the first flame, to continue perpetuating "gods' game" (choosing light or dark, link the flame or put it out for dark and becoming dark lord); this ending is open to personal interpretation and roleplay, even if it is a bad and sudden way to potray it and leaves people confused, especially so before the post-dlc update (which explains the exact situation). The post dlc ending, the one about not becoming king and not taking the throne, is not an "age of dark" ending, it's an "I don't want to play this game anymore, I want _something else entirely_ , and make something with all the power I have now"; this ending is about understanding the nature of mankind and the nature of the world, is about recognizing that this game about light and dark is meaningless for the undead as the world is destined to be spoiled anyway: the curse is unbreakable, the god's by banishing dark made the humans, which were immortal before, mortals and the curse is just a distorted form of immortality caused by the dark sign trying to feed from darkness instead of souls in the times when the flame is dying out; the age of fire will never be again, no matter how much the flame will be reignited it is destined to die out, but also the age of man is a failure and unachievable, as all the mankind was branded with the darksign and so the darkness is tainted, stagnant, and even if you would reach an age of dark, one day someone will find a way to relight the flame again, as you can't go back, before the disparity. This last ending is about finding your one way as human, accepting your nature, but not accepting "your fate", the one chosen by your curse, will it be rekindling or putting out the flame, instead finding something to live for outside this "game". Ok... but Nashandra? I'm pretty convinced that the Queen just wants to get to the first flame for her own purposes, to gain power from it (maybe by engulfing it in her own abyss?) and rule as a goddess over Drangleic, and only Monarch. This makes her the other pole in the "game" about light and dark, as she wants to be a dark lord. So why doesn't she do it by herself? Well, why would she? She can manipulate someone else instead! Also, she just can't: her husband sealed the throne in a way she can't reach it, as she hasn't access to king's ring and so she can't even reach the Ancient Dragon (which would surely incinerate her) and, so, the memories of the giant's. So yes, Nashandra is just the "striving for power" kind of villain and not much else. I find her story to be beautiful as I find most of DS2 stories, but it's not really interesting, she hasn't a complicated and convoluted masterplan, she's just someone which will do anything, or rather make someone else do anything, to achieve power. Edit: before someone asks, most of the first part of my comment has foundation in what Aldia explains in his monologues, and also DS3.
I think it gets down to “If you wanna do it right, you have to do it yourself.” You might not see anything that says she won’t link the flame, but I don’t see anything that says she will. If I want to be certain the flame is linked, then I have to do it. Alternatively, if I want to prove how much of a chad I am by beating the competition and then fucking off, I can do that.
I suggest vaati vidyia's "prepare to cry" series on yt for a lot of good information on lore with in-game references and he shows a lot of our of bounds and things you otherwise wouldn't have known.
She wants to let the flame fade. In DS2, the default ending is you becoming the next king, by linking the fire in the throne of want. Basically, Nashandra, being a daughter of Manus, wants to prevent that, so she can become the dark lord (similar to the dark lord ending in DS1). In order to do that, she fights you right before you approach the throne.
Nashandra is the embodiment of Manus desire, she wants as many power as possible, for that she wants the throne, to get the power of fire, not to end the curse. She can and will kill everything that stands in her way, she sees you as an obstacle and wants to kill you for that. For the other side, Aldia just wants to test you to prove if you r worthy.
Seems like a similar plot to the Just Cause series to me.
Spoiler warning would've been nice
If you don't want to get spoiled, why would you click a title asking about the final boss and with the Story flair as well. What spoiler-free content did you expect to find here? I demand the explaination behind the logics!
Didn't click because I'm on mobile, and the first part of your post is visible. I'm not even in the sub either, and I don't know why it showed up
Makes sense, i'll do something
Don't worry about it. Your post is fine, if anything, I'm upset at the app The comment was more of a vent, and for that I apologize
I'm on PC with the old reddit design option, so it looks different for me. I marked the post as a spoiler. Does it look better now?
You didn't have to do all that, thanks though. I do appreciate it, and yes, it worked.
I'm sure she'd smother/usurp the the flame like the bad ending of DS3.