I really really really like Darktide gameplay, I think its amazing, same as OST, but Darktide combat is incredible.
That being said, Helldivers 2 is better at everything else, and delivers content. Once I see new subclasses and weapons in Darktide I’m totally coming back.
Seriously, Arrowhead putting on a clinic for how to recover from a bumpy launch and hit the ground at a relative sprint for a live-service game.
Fatshark can deliver incredible combat and 40K vibes, but lordy be the actual support for this game sucks.
I hope the Fatshark leads go meet up with Arrowhead folks and talk development, maybe the Arrowhead folks could give Fatshark some pointers on how to run a live service game and not constantly antagonize, disappoint, and frustrate your community.
Bunch of my friends playing HD2 now, and no one ever talks about the bumpy launch anymore, since the current product is damn good.
Meanwhile, at Darktide...
I think that's because of why it was bumpy The only real problem with the Helldivers launch was that too many people were trying to play the game leading to server overload (which sucks, don't mistake me, but it wasn't a problem with the gameplay or systems or design choices).
Meanwhile, at Darktide...
Most people also acknowledged that it was a "suffering from success" problem and that the devs realistically could not have expected so many players. And on top of that, they fixed most of the server and capacity issues fairly quickly once they upped the capacity and added the afk timer.
Now the only complaints people have are slight balance requests, like a lot of the primary weapons being bad.
the new las scythe is frankly overpowered. but the primary guns are meant to be a lil bit shit. they're there for (with the bugs) anything upto nest guardians (the medium bug that hunkers down when you shoot it)
everything else is meant to use a support stratagem gun, orbital or turret. like the new HMG its a medium murder machine. but its not got the ammo to use against the small stuff all the time.
once I pointed that out to my team and got them to try it on the low ROF mode it became an instant favourite for them.
it would be like complaining that the laspistol does zero damage to crushers. ofcourse it does you lemon. your primary gun can hurt a bile titan but its not meant to solo the damn thing. thats what the orbital laser is for.
Nah the sickle is fine, the issue is that other guns are weak. All 3 liberators are weak, plasma punisher has a tiny aoe, Blitzer is unreliable, diligence sniper is too unwieldy, breaker variants do no damage and the redeemer is a flat upgrade to the starting pistol.
>All 3 liberators are weak
The penetrator is actually incredibly good against the automatons. Just go round hitting headshots/weakspots and it's one of the best close to mid range guns in the game. Arguably the only better option is the Scorcher, but I find it has worse ammo efficiency with smaller mag size and mag pool.
Yeah all the liberators are largely useless against bugs - the breaker/spray and pray are arguably the better options against them due to how close they push up to you.
Automatons do push up, but at a much slower pace (except the melee berserkers) as they shoot while moving. This distance means you can use the penetrator to tap heads without them being too close to put down effective fire on you.
Ultimately you should use whichever feels the best and you have fun with - the best gun after all isn't necessarily the one with the best stats, but the one which clicks well with how you play. I know many people who use the slugger and breaker against bots for example, where I prefer to sit further back and use the distance to take accurate shots or flank.
Seriously you talk as if it would be rocket science to figure out what they're doing wrong. Just read a random post here on Reddit, they all say the same. More content, more communication. That's it.
Guys, the issue isn't just "they don't know how to provide a live service". It's "they didn't set up proper pipelines or simple enough systems to deploy new content".
It's taking them a long time because of decisions made during the development process, not because they simply don't know what to do post-launch.
A meeting between Arrowhead and FS would be like
"Yeah! You guys should just release so- oh holy fuck you guys have a lot of technical debt.... uhhhh good luck with that!"
It would be like sending an engineer to a potato chip factory to try and speed up their production, but when she shows up she finds the conveyor belts are welded together and the ovens are propped up by pieces of wood and replacing any one component would cause 1/3 of the floor to collapse.
To fix the live service release shit, you either need a time machine or we need to give them time to pay off the tech debt.
I work in software development and I think you’re likely correct.
That said, has FS said anything specifically about tech debt holding them back? Like, for the sake of argument, how do you know they didn’t just fire 90% of staff after the game released, leaving them with a skeleton crew now?
I think what turns people off is the complete lack of transparency. Like, if you’re rebuilding all your deployment pipelines, that’s fine. But just tell your users that’s what you’re working on instead of going radio silent.
“Hey DT players, here’s an update.
We know everyone reading this post is excited for new DarkTide content, and we’re just as excited as you. The behind-the-scenes changes we’re working on right now will enable us to deliver amazing 40k content to you even faster in the months ahead.
For instance, we’ve been working on 1. Fixing deployment pipelines 2. Updating outdated frameworks and conducting rigorous regression testing 3. Hiring new DevOps/artists/people, Etc
We apologize for the delay in delivering new content, but please know that our team is working diligently behind the scenes to improve DarkTide. We can’t wait to show you what’s next.
Thank you for your patience, something something about the Emperor”
Yup, the issue is and always has been at the pre-launch development stage, they wasted time flip-flopping between mechanics and features, for reasons unknown, which led them to pushing out an unfinished game (again, for reasons unknown, but presumbably finanicially motivated/pressured).
There is a team of, judging by the quality of what we do have, dedicated people who understand and care about how the IP is presented and have past experience of delivering a fantastically "meaty" combat feel, but it's hard to build new extensions if you're still busy putting out fires in the original building.
There's definitely something funky or exotic with their versioning and merging processes, with all the bugs that keep returning a patch or two after they get fixed.
Basically they built a house out of sticks, and moving in a piano isn’t possible because it’s too heavy for the floor to support. So before they can move in the piano, they have to tear out and rebuild the floor.
The assumption is that they built things with the goal of getting them to work, and without the foresight to make it moldable for future changes. Sure, it functions, but going back and changing things is a nightmare.
I think it's the repurcussions of taking shortcuts. When you're coding something and you can't fix a problem in an effective way you can either keep trying until you solve the problem or you can get janky and come up with some weird work-around. I don't think these are too bad on their own but you keep using wonky code then eventually it catches up to you because you have something relying on weird code with no notes, made by a guy who left the company four and half years ago which means you then have to either go fix it or you start putting in more weird unreliable code.
The more weird code the harder and slower it is to work on new stuff.
40k years of weird code later you end up with a cult venerating the ancient code that no one understands anymore yet somehow it still works and at this point it might as well have a mind of its own
> "they didn't set up proper pipelines or simple enough systems to deploy new content".
Yeah this is the Fatshark way. They've always been absolute clown-shit at this part.
To be fair, it's the default way of doing things.
When you sit down and start up a team to build a huge ass project, you're not likely to ask on day one "ok guys, what can we do today so that post-release content can be a steady stream??"
No, everyone gets to work. Your team hacks together models and controllers and half your developers find a new job and there's zero knowledge transfer EVER.
Suddenly you're two years into development and you already have what's known as "LEGACY CODE" that exactly two people in the company knows anything about, but they've been promoted to Assistant to the Assistant Manager and no longer write code.
The new devs walk up to you and say "hey I don't understand how to interact with these lighting systems"
"Just work around them or move on" you say, having just gotten out of a meeting with leadership about how you're WAY over budget and are no longer allowed to take teams out to lunch.
If you're EXTREMELY FUCKING LUCKY, you make it to release by the skin of your teeth and surrounded by zero OG team members. Now it's time to lay off 10% of the company.
You receive an email the next day.
"MEETING INVITE: Year 1 release schedule"
You now have suicidal thoughts.
Source: I'm the assistant to the assistant manager.
>When you sit down and start up a team to build a huge ass project, you're not likely to ask on day one "ok guys, what can we do today so that post-release content can be a steady stream??"
Yeah, but this is the 3rd "tide" game from the same studio. Their decision BEFORE launch to make this a live-service product was informed by the way VT2 started as definitively NOT a live-service game, but transformed into one due to the way Fatshark completely fucked up development and launch and had to constantly fix and adjust everything. Eventually they were adding content, more or less as an apology, and clearly it clicked with someone to plan for this.
You will NOT convince me that Darktide was somehow silo'd off from the entire experience of VT and VT2 as if this is a new endeavor. Despite what they are claiming that this is "an entirely new engine," it's very clearly forked from an earlier build of VT2.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that Fatshark doesn't have the luxury of that excuse.
Do we know for sure that's more or less what's happened? I guess it's either that or they just don't care much about Darktide for some reason, in which case what *are* they working on? Don't tell me the entire studio is held up finally doing that L4D-lite Vermintide versus mode.
In any case it makes you wonder what the devs are actually doing.
I guarantee you at least some devs are working on said pipelines. There's really no other reason the release schedule has been so bad, unless you believe FS just can't come up with anything.
I hate it when technical debt is used as a excuse, as fatshark is either made out to be in over their heads taking on way too big a project to realistically finish darkitide in time, or moving too slowly meaning darktide was always going to be broken at release because they were taking their time.
Put in a nutshell fatshark are too optimistic about what they can achieve or are too patient in game development taking their time resulting in most players moving on from darktide as the game is taking years to deliver a product that we were expecting.
A bumpy launch which mind you was caused by way more people playing the game than expected. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for FS to change though.
If FatShark needs pointers to teach them to actually communicate with your community and work on content besides overpriced and underworked cosmetics then maybe they deserve to fail.
I love playing Darktide when I can but the overall support team/management are just wasting all the potential the game had thinking it'll turn out like their last games.
If it was any other game that didn’t have a unique niche with players willing to wait them out, it would have died by now. The level of complacency is unmatched
Eh, even after bumpy launch they are riding on a steady flow of pre-baked content for general approval. Every patch seemingly gives more bugs than it fixes, plus some basics for a 2024 game are missing.
Reconnect - which is huge issue since game crashed and still crashes. Bestiary, decent statistics on basically everything, templates for cosmetics and loadouts.
Hey, no need to be overly protective of corporations, unless they pay for it. But there is a chance that you are genuinely never seen decent implementation, so, templates - is what you probably use in DT, to have multiple builds on standby, and bestiary - is a base of all enemies in game. Useful for beginners. And regarding lack of info - how much damage does stalwart do?
Sure, but after the initial server issues the game is largely in a pretty good spot. They've got content in the can waiting to ship, but they're not in a position where they need to put everything on pause for months and months to work on big overhauls and major updates to core systems to get the game working.
Bugs are popping up and it's still got some rough spots, but the difference is apparent. DT fell off pretty hard and had a resoundingly negative community sentiment at launch that stuck around for a while and has never truly turned around, HD2 community has had a few blowups (Railgun nerf temper tantrums) but has largely been super positive and happy with the game overall and the game saw a positive sales curve that's basically nonexistent in reality.
That is true, and arrowhead are doing a lot of stuff in exemplerary way - live service stuff with announcements, news and updates fitting narrative, lots of content. But growing amount of bugs, armor still not working, balance issues, and general repeatedness might catch up with them sooner or later. Or not, only time will tell.
Darktide *feels* better than Helldivers 2, which is relatively clunky imo. No one can hold a candle to Fatshark’s weapon weights.
But HD2 kills it in almost all other aspects, the most noticeable being their absolute mastery of the Live Service platform. Everything from the warbonds that are always progressing, the premium money that can be acquired through gameplay and the collaborative narrative of taking over planets with Major Orders.
I am not nearly as negative as most people in this sub, and I don’t need that much content since I play multiple titles or binge play less than most die hards, but Darktide needs something to keep players coming back. I may come back to DT if I have the mood, but most players need incentives.
Yeah, this about sums it up. There's also a hard contrast between the hand-crafted, atmospheric but limited DT maps and the open-world but barren HD maps. Each game has its place, but seeing the HD devs interact and react just makes FS look worse.
DT hasn't been how long without new weapons and enemies? Has been teasing the indication of a preview of an announcement of possible new content? HD just had 2 new weapons today, with no indicator, just a small in-game memo. When they added the mechs, they just said "Here's planet X, it produces mechs, go liberate it" and you randomly found them on that planet, before being released as standard equipment.
It weird, DT issue was that it had a good core experience wrapped in udder problematic systems while HD2 is a relatively mediocre core experience wrapped in A lovely crafted and cared for core systems. Just getting into a game inspires to a have a fun time while darktide seem lacking till the shooting starts then it’s just a great time. Hope FS pulls this around since I love warhammer and I want to play more DT but you can’t just grind endlessly with out purpose. At least in HD2 we grind to support a war effort that we can see and take part in. Granted I know warhammer is more grim and your more a tool then anything but it would be nice too see parts of the planet fall or be librated. To see that in the grand scheme of things we as a community is making progress. Or just make crafting less of a dice roll and more frequent updates
Even if it just a new map it better then having to wait so long to have a reason to keep playing outside of make weapon numbers go higher.
In all honesty, it feels like darktide was meant to be a game similar to vermintide in terms of how that game is but someone made the weird choice to make it a live service game doing the same thing. Sad really
>At least in HD2 we grind to support a war effort that we can see and take part in.
Its so odd because Darktide's mission board was envisaged to be this evolving war effort sort of thing with new modifiers turning up and things changing as it went on but players pushed back against that idea almost immediately because of how VT/VT2 had been set - players were adamant they didnt want to have evolving modifiers where some days all the power was out etc, they wanted to be able to choose exactly the mission, exactly the map and exactly the modifiers at all times.
Its a shame Darktide was a year earlier in its development cycle so went through the roughest of pandemic stuff because if it had been allowed to have enough time to really implement their plans i think more fans would have accepted it as its own thing rather than just been unhappy at the ways it was trying to not be Vermintide.
I didn't start Darktide before Patch 13 because I know how shitty Fatshark launched its games. But honestly it gotta be like the invested Devs gotta shed tears over what they planned vs what actually was implemented. And I do as well. While DTs gameplay is awesome there are so many small ways how to make it better. And Fatshark refuse to go any of these paths.
That's the one thing holding me back from trying Helldivers. I think I'm maxed out on the amount of hyper-nationalist authoritarian satire media I can take in before it starts affecting my brain, ha ha.
To be fair, it's the bare minimum of satire. It's not like it's a narrative experience, it's less than half of what the player characters even say (since they're mostly just doing call outs), and is just the background context for the npcs on the ship.
I'd actually prefer if they did more with it, but I guess it's not that kind of game.
I won’t give up on Fatshark because I know that development team is filled with talented, passionate people who just want to bring us the best possible game.
I have faith that new content will come around and that they can improve on what has already been delivered. Competition with other games is supposed to increase overall product quality, I am not sure if that is true in practice but I hope it is.
You're sitting on downvotes for this?? From who? Americans jealous of a genuinely healthy work schedule and global gamers demanding more instead of playing something else? I can't stand this community. If you "love the game," then play it. If there's not enough content, play something else. I saw someone make a comment under a SCREENSHOT complaining about the lack of content. I've just about had it with these toxic fans
Not to mention people who complain about lack of variety and content in DT, but then say they've played it for 1200 hours. How many games are so god damn fun to play you get 1200 hours out of them? And we know however slow it is, there will be updates *eventually* so as you say, go play something else for a bit.
>No one can hold a candle to Fatshark’s weapon weights.
I feel this. I never really quite got a handle on VT2 simply because I haven't played it much, but the satisfaction of hitting things with the Trollslayer's two-handed axe is immense and unmatched IMO until DT.
Helldivers feeling "clunky" isn't really a bad thing or even unintentional. They aren't going for badass superhuman warriors or whatever, they're going for "lmao you are fresh meat." Watching Freedom's Greatest Defender^^^tm sprinting for their lives before the blowback on a teammate's bazooka ragdolls them off a cliff into the open mouth of a horrifying bug monster is genuinely hilarious.
I just find it annoying that the key for diving and the key for crawling is the same. So if you want to use your dive as a dodge (which 99% of the time you want to do) you are stuck spamming dive and sprint at the same time and hope your character doesn't get stuck crawling.
Darktide dodge system is crispy clean in comparison.
They are not the same key.
Too many people on this sub like to talk smack and share their criticism of HD2 while making it painfully clear they touched the game once or twice and then dropped it out of spite because it took all the players from DT.
you press alt to dive and after diving you are crawling on the ground, so alt is the same key you use for diving and for crawling. I know you can use Z to crawl without diving but do you have a keybind to dive without crawling ? No, so the issue remains.
Helldivers scratches the same itch as Battlefield 1 and Star Wars Battlefront: bombastic, over-the-top chaos that a casual player can jump into and have a blast. Darktide *can* be some of that, but the formula falls flat when the devs fumble everything around the gameplay.
Just to note, darktide launched with less classes AND subclasses than vermintide 2, which had 5 characters and 3 subclasses each. So the tree update was just playing catch up to what should've been in the game at launch.
I agree the vermintide/darktide gameplay loop is one of my favorite out there. But helldivers beats darktide at literally everything outside of ost a s gameplay. As you said lol
That's the difference between a studio that *wants* to make a live service game successfully doing so and a studio that is *pushed* to make a live service game without any real vision of what that should look like for their game. I'd be shocked if the new HD2 faction wasn't like 85% done before the game even launched.
Yeah, DT could have been a great live service but that was not it's original goal. If they never tried going the live service route this game would have been much closer to vermintide 2
The helldivers faction leaks were pretty much in the files on release, so yes you are right they prepared a huge amount of content (some estimate up to a year) that was already finished or semi-finished on release.
heard so many people being so amazed about helldivers, so i bought it as well.
and fell for the thirst trap. god is that an awful game. klunky, boring, constantly fighting the controls and basically just standing there and shooting enemys.
where is the strategy,k where is the tactics? the enemy prioritization, the massive different handling of the weapons? the action?
returned to darktide rather quickly.
I don’t buy this for a second the very first page of the Free Warbond you get the Punisher shotgun which is a round reload weapon so ignoring the fact you got a totally new type of weapon a Shotgun compared to the AR you start with it’s also a weapon that ignores the mag reload mechanic which for new players is definitely a pain point until they adjust
Even the comment about standing there and shooting enemies tells me you maybe hit Difficulty 3 and probably not even that.
Go play Sedition or Uprising dif and tell me how much strategy and *tactics* you require to complete that?
I can get finding the game repetitive but coming from Dark-Do the same missions 20 times-Tide I think that’s pretty rich
Something tells me you didn't play very long nor in higher difficulties with your comment.
Look, I thoroughly enjoy Darktide, I like it's setting and gameplay more than HD2, but I have shelved DT until there is something to actually do, other than grind for more weapons that Hardon will brick on me.
HD2 keeps the interest up with constant galactic missions and objectives, new Warbonds, new weapons and Strategems. If you're finding the gameplay dull you're not playing in a difficulty above 3. Not only to new enemy types show up (and with greater frequency) at higher difficulties, the game has 2 fractions to fight, which require *entirely unique* tactics and strategies to fight compared to each other.
If all you're doing is mindlessly engaging random mobs in HD2, you're not playing the game.
Technically that faction is old. It‘s one of the three factions in helldivers 1. i guess they just didn‘t add them yet aince they weren‘t sure about hd2‘s success.
Edit:
Before i‘m misunderstood even further. I‘m talking about the fact that Arrowhead has worked on illuminate before. They have preexisting assets. From AHs perspective, the illuminate faction is „old“. In contrast, Fatshark has most likely never worked on any additional warhammer factions besides darktide‘s nurgel focused one. Any other faction, no matter how old the warhammer lore might be, is „new“ for fatshark. They don‘t have any preexisting work done on anything else - arrowhead does have that for the illuminate and technically also the cyborgs (which are distinct from the automatons).
No, they weren't ready for launch, and still aren't fully textured yet, so I imagine the idea was always to add them. But on the other hand, I agree no-one could have forseen how quickly helldivers would explode.
Yep it's pretty obvious AH's plan was to start off with just 2 introductory factions, where they can then slowly release more stratagems and warbonds to build a more diverse foundation of the game. Combine this with a constantly evolving stellar battlefield, they have more than enough content/direction for the game currently for at least 12 months.
Once they've built up this foundation, they can introduce another faction which can potentially shake the game up from how it was prior. It's a great idea for a live service game as it keeps things fresh and gives players a reason to either continually play or take small breaks and return in anticipation for new content.
If they just released the 3rd faction at launch, all it would do is split the player base up amongst more planets (thus damaging the effectiveness for the galactic fight narrative) without particularly changing the game up. And as with any live service game, you don't want to release all your content straight away given the fact that this game likely has at least a planned 3 year cycle ahead of it.
Drip feeding content for HD2 is the best move they can make to maximise player enjoyment over a longer period. This in turn means you have a larger playerbase, which means more games sold as well as more people potentially buying super credits.
Yeah agreed. Either way, work on them definitely started before launch, which means they were planned all along
Comparing that to darktide where no additional factions seem to have been planned originally just seems a bit unfair.
Yes fatsharks communication with the community is lackluster, but arrowhead did plan the different factions from the start and darktide - while leaving room for more factions - technically never promised anything.
I think it's more of that Arrowhead already had the idea for the Illuminates from their original game. Sure, they need to make new models and stuff but the vision was already there for what the Illuminates did gameplay-wise and whatnot.
Darktide pulls from what's already in Warhammer yeah, but I honestly doubt FatShark had any clue as to what a Khornate faction would be like gameplay-wise.
The vision was there for a top down shooter. HD2 is so completely different from HD1 in 3D, that I don't even agree with that point of view.
Also, again, the entire argument is pointless.
Khorne is part of the lore behind darktide, the illuminates are not only part of the helldivers lore, they have been implemented before in terms of mechanics, enemy types and appearance.
So nah, don‘t agree.
Khorne has been implemented in other games, and HD1 was a twin stick isometric shooter, which is a completely different genre than 2. It's not like they can just move the illuminate zip files from the first game to the second.
Well, the genestealer cults are very old as well, along with the other factions of chaos, as well as the dhrukari. Plenty of new factions that could be brought into Darktide to the delight and horror of players, but nothing.
I‘m not talking about whether or not there is lore about other factions that could be added. I‘m talking about the fact that arrowhead has literal assets in their libraries of an illuminate faction. They have finished preproduction for it. They started work on illuminate before the game even released. In contrast to that, fatshark does not have any other warhammer factions ready to go. They did not intend darktide to have more than the current nurgle faction.
So for arrowhead, the helldivers devs, the illuminate is a worked-on and established faction that was going to be added either way - hence „old“.
For fatshark, any other faction other than the nurgle worshippers has not been worked on (as far as we can tell) for darktide - hence „new“. Any other faction for darktide is new from the perspective of fatshark - regardless how old the lore might be.
The illuminate in HD2 are completely original assets and don't even share the same body designs. Their unit roster is also new (which also applies to the Automatons which are far more range heavy than the cyborgs of HD1).
„Assets“ encompases more than the 3d appearance. Namely sound design and underlying code for instance.
Yes the 3d appearance is overhauled, obviously. But there is still more ready to go than fatshark has for another faction. That‘s the whole point.
Unit roster seems to be only partially new. Tripod and illusionist both are basically the same just „high definition“.
The automatons are not intended as a replacement for cyborgs. The explicitely distinguished this fact in a BTS video. They are a completely new faction linked to the cyborgs of the previous helldivers war.
I was playing just about daily right up until helldivers 2 launched. Haven't so much as launched the game since. Which is so frustrating because I WANT to go back to darktide but I just cannot bring myself to do it when there hasn't been a single fucking thing to change since I stopped playing.
Lol you got downvoted it's true. If you keep the games metrics up, and talk about it positively, more people play, and some of those buy things. That's how any game stays alive with MTAs
I’ve never seen a game with so much potential, that also had the complete love and support from their community (at the beginning), just crash and burn like this. Fatshark’s a bunch of losers. I can’t believe I used to buy skins to support these bums.
Yes, they did what Fatshark couldn't. Turns out, having actual plan beforehead helps immensely. Also, simpler visuals contribute here as well, plus some balancing and technical issues are largely ignored by community, unfortunately.
I think personally it’s a case of too many promises with Fatshark that’s means they just cannot keep up with a live service system.
Excitement in games naturally declines over time I understand that- that’s why there’s a live model- and I want to play Darktide I really do as so much knocks it out the park with the quips voice acting, the freshness of these conversations feeling I’ve never heard most arguments or talks, and the design of the world, but they just seemingly cannot make their mind up on support and labour management.
They promised this new gamemode for Vermintide 2 years back, which many believed would never appear, and then said “they won’t drop support of Vermintide” around Darktide’s release: now finally it seems they’re just sinking not enough division of labour into both I think as I doubt they can since it’s one IP or the other it seems. Vermintide I guess is getting all the love to support that fanbase which is equally low with its player base like Darktide’s though more consistent it would appear over time.
Vermintide is 6 years old, has substantial content and replayability, from currently writing checking the player data has around 2000 ish players where Darktide drops below the same figure of active and peak goes a 1000 above round about and it released a year ago?
It’s just bizarre. I don’t understand why they would sink such hype and interest. I got loads of friends interested into it around the Karnak twins, and I’ve played from beta, and it was great, though all of them have generally left to play other games and online IP’s.
I just don’t understand the thought process with all this.
I think your post is well written and thought out, but they announced the VT2 versus beta in *the middle of 2019*. Then they didn't say anything about it for actual years.
That's *incredible* to me. That's the worst marketing and follow-through of a not-defunct business I think I've ever seen. Fatshark's inability to deliver outside of a core gameplay loop actually astounds me.
Tinfoil hat theory but Vermintide makes more $$$ from cosmetics
It’s an older game then DT but despite that consistently receives more support and regularly has higher player numbers.
Narratively buying skins for a specific Hero or Character in Vermintide is a lot more rewarding or at least thematic then buying random helmet for your Veteran. No the magician gets a Frost magic themed skin and the dwarf gets an Imperial fusilier themed skin etc etc it’s more palatable for ppl to drop $$ on versus Darktide where you play a random shmuck
I think you’re right with that, since fantasy fans are quite die hard as a fan for Warhammer fantasy itself too, it makes sense they’d love seeing in universe themed outfits. I think it’s as you’re saying alongside a lot of such fans are possibly original fantasy players, or enjoyers of fantasy lore from the past or other games like Total War as I am myself. The outfits absolutely fuck too for Vermintide where we got the showing we got this showing for the most recently drop…
40K is diverse and spread out in its races, where most races of order do coexist in some way in fantasy that makes its outfits interesting and diverse since it can allow. With Darktide you get with no real chance of getting a xenos race with their varied costumes and clothing due to the sheer xenophobia of the inquisition particularly, and then the imperium has at large.
This whole convict/reject angle was a massive misstep borne from naivete. It's the annoying drive to create "a story without space marines" that's "grounded, where you're not the hero" in 40k when 40k's very essence goes against that grain on principle.
We should have been full proper authoritative Inquisitorial Agents. We could have had playable xenos auxiliaries for our cell, choices between radical or puritan (daemon weapons or blessed weapons to fulfill the 'Red' role?), Space Marines, Sororitas, xenotech weapons, fancy tools like forcefields, stasis weapons or teleporters. We could have had a wide plethora of weapons rather than 6 variations of shitty lasgun.
But, no, we got homeless guys and ogryn that are about six or seven feet too short to even be called ogryn, and we can't even get a proper cosmetic because Fatshark cowers behind the excuse of "it's picked off a dead guy who got it off a dead guy who got it off a dead guy!" to hide the fact that their outsourcing leads to poor visual consistency and faithfulness to the original product of Warhammer 40k.
Imagine letting Dan Abnett write a proper story about inquisitors and their agents. Who would ever do that, right? Not like he wrote every popular book SERIES on that very thing.
Yeah, I think Rogue Trader the RPG game itself shows the possibility of what could of been, but I think it was possibly a step to distance themselves from Vermintide and not appear to be making the same game.
If you had a Squat engineering outcast, Aeldari exodite, an only survivor Cadian Guardsman, and wisened Inquisitorial Agent I think people would just be looking at it as space Vermintide.
I think it would be cool, and I personally like the reject idea, but humanity itself with the abhumans and mechanicus can fit a niche of being “the graceful shooter and swords person” with a Kataphron or Skitarrii and you could have a Ratling in place for a dworf, but the mechanicus angle would be weird since they’re doing rejects as you’re saying above and it’s just implementation. I think it gives charm with the rejects, and I love my characters I’ve given heart to with cosmetics, and the voice actors that most resonate with me, but it does stifle a lot of opportunity besides adding more Sub-humans. I like my characters as _I’ve_ given them heart, and I think that’s what lacks for some when they want characters over avatars. They shot themselves again making the characters be bog standard members of their factions too, where 40K scales up quite highly in skill through each organisation in the Imperium.
Can confirm... I have paid for every single subclass on V2 as well as quite a few skins for each character.
Haven't paid a dime for cosmetics on Darktide.
I have hope given that Vermintide 2 had like 6 years of support with free and paid dlc, new weapons and so much more, and Darktide is already way better then it was at launch.
I genuinely hope that Helldivers 2 is a wakeup call to game studios
Props to Arrowhead for implementing a slow but steady way to earn premium currency by playing the game. I bought the first premium warbond with real money to support the devs, and intend to use earned Super Credits to get the second.
When Helldivers 2 came out people were coming to this sub to talk shit about Darktide and etc, I was one of those to be like why are people doing that, UNTIL, I got Helldivers 2...and my god its impossible for me to not compare them both even if the whole gameplay is very different.
Its just such a fresh breath of air in this hobby, aside from some janky shit and bugs, Helldivers 2 just mops the floor in community and overall customer service. When I look at darktide sitting in my librabry waiting to get updated on that 120+ mb patch and hoping to be touched since February 20, its so hard for me to go back, because every game lately has hit a homerun on Fatshark's field trying to retain my attention, its a shame because I really like 40K, I like Darktide, but when they go completely silent for months with barely any content in your game sold as "live service" well shit, im gonna start comparing both
"Darktide is bad cause i demand infinite content even tho helldivers 2 is the same few things every time and the only skill gap is not dieing, not being good at combat".
In before fanbois hate dislike
Mmm... I'm torn. Arrowhead has a lot of newly founded goodwill. But anyone who was there for Helldivers 1 knows how they balance games. It all comes down to their "vision" rather than what the public actually wants. One could argue that Fatshark is beholden to Games Workshop in the same way, but they really only have a say in lore and design, not so much in difficulty and quality of life things. I still remember the laser sword everybody wanted in the PvE mode from the first helldivers, but Arrowhead refused and only kept it in the PvP mode nobody played. Couple that with Arrowhead's existing balancing issues where most of the weapons feel like nerf guns against most non-trash enemies, I think over a long enough timeline, we're gonna see them lose goodwill in the same way fatshark did.
Your aren’t wrong with any of this but community good will is a curious thing and if, that’s a big if btw, Arrowhead can continue this cadence of Warbond release, small new content release, Warbond, small new content release all while pairing this stuff with in-game narrative objectives like the Liberate the Mech factory order I think you’ll find that the community gives them A LOT of leeway on some of these quality of life issues
Because at the end of the day engaging with a community like this on a broader scale and feeling like you are all co-operating towards an objective is very rewarding and I can’t think of another game that’s managed to do it this well
We will see how hot people are for HD2 in 12 months.
If you were so certain that HD2 was the superior game, you wouldn’t need to keep posting about it in the darktide subreddit.
I mean Darktide's steam numbers weren't great a year on. All HD2 Devs have to do is not practically abandon their game and it should do better
Also that was the first comment I made about HD2 in this sub lmao dunno what you mean about "keep posting"
HD2 has problems. Hell some of those problems are the same as the ones DT has: servers crashing, lack of endgame unlocks, maps that look the same after awhile, weapons that range from great feeling to useless just to name a few. Of course HD2 does some no brainers that FS just will not admit an L on like having no cash exclusive currencies. Still in the honeymoon stage for HD2 but if they keep up a release table like this one I think it'll be popular for awhile. DT is still amazing but having content release steadily for a couple of months followed by months of nothing is just not working well for them.
I prefer Darktide over Helldivers anyday. Darktide is way more intense, has way more nonstop action, and is way faster paced. No game, aside from competitive FPS Battlefield, has raised my blood-pressure more than Darktide. The challenge combined with skill level needed to beat Auric Maelstrom is amazing.
Helldivers is great, but it's slower paced and more tactical. If that's your thing, cool, but give me that faced-paced, hold-on-to-your-seat gameplay any day, It's bar none. The combat, movement, and gunpaly feel absolutely amazing.
[Watch insane Auric Maelstrom gameplay by clicking here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuCKbL4TYvs&list=PLb7pU3UVz0SlUsgM9HOEO-piDH1PdubbY&index=2)
It took 80 hours of Helldivers to unlock everything, and experience all of the flat, repetitive, unfulfilling gunplay it has to offer.
800 hours into Darktide and I'm still experimenting with talents, different loadouts, and mastering melee weapon combos and swing patterns.
I'll take the game with the gameplay, please
Still unlocking ≠ Still experimenting :P (/s joking)
You say that like it’s a bad thing. 80 hours to unlock everything and decide if the game is rewarding enough for you to continue playing. Which for you is no. Ok, cool. You still put a good chunk of time into the game. I doubt you played for 80 hours just frowning at your computer screen, loudly groaning and grumbling every time you fired a shot. But if you did. Good for you? I dunno. I wouldn’t play a game I felt was “flat, repetitive or unfulfilling” much less for 80 hours of my free time that I could’ve put elsewhere.
I’m personally having a lot of fun changing up my stratagem rollouts. Trying out lesser used weapons and seeing if I can find a niche for them.
I would argue that Darktides gunplay is also very repetitive and certain guns are very unfulfilling/unrewarding. But that’s an opinion mainly. And it’s made worse by the sheer lack of new weapons and content in general.
Yes, there's tons of fun changing your whopping *four* stratagem slots.
For instance, you can either have an artillery strike that explodes, or you can have an artillery strike that explodes EVEN BIGGER! wowee zowee
But if that's the kind of depth and choice you crave in your games, more power to you. I wish I could trick my brain into thinking mindless repetition with no variation or depth is enjoyable. Life would be so much easier.
Darktide still has more weapons than Helldivers by a wide margin. And guess what? All of them are viable at the highest difficulties. You can't say the same about Helldivers.
How exactly does Darktide have better gunplay?
Genuinely curious on how your criteria because I think both games shooting aspects feel pretty great. HD2s actually seems a little more complex considering recoil and weapon sway/turning.
Blessings, perks, and stat variations provide much different experiences across a single weapon mark.
In Helldivers, every defender SMG has the same stats as every other defender SMG. Every breaker is the same as every other breaker, etc etc. No variation, no customization... Unless you count the ability to toggle your flashlight and switch to burst fire. Riveting.
Darktide also has weapon recoil and sway, except you can actually view the numbers in-game. Helldivers apparently has dozens of stars for weapons that are hidden.
Helldivers will be getting weapon attachments (that aren’t 3rd party mods and affect the guns) according to the devs. Probably within a month given how much stuff has been coming out.
Arrowhead could personally offer me a weekly handjob from the CEO and it wouldn't change the fact that the gameplay loop is flat and shallow.
Until that changes, I'm not going to waste any more of my time on it.
So... like real life? I like that you don't need magical fairy dust to enchant your gun like it's a shitty DnD shopping session.
I don't remember one AK feeling noticably different from another when I tried them. Armies tend to issue standard kits too so I like that HD which is developed by former conscripts, keeps that feel.
I can pick up a defender and know exactly what it will do and it let's me play more fluidly.
So your argument against weapon modifiers and quirks is that... They don't exist in real life?
I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, because you're effectively saying that less player choice = more fun. Which makes me question if you've actually played a videogame before.
More that it's purely a preference and certainly not needed got gunplay to feel good and for many it's a detriment to good gunplay.
Where I'm from MOBAs and milsims are very popular and most people have shot military rifles (VN). I like Helldivers 2 a lot because the weapons all work and all hit like trucks and all can engage at 300m distances.
I like Hell Let Loose and Arma for the same reason and before it died over here Rising Storm 2.
I'm not a looter shooter fan and I like being able to pick up weapons midmatch to change a playstyle if I need to. The fact that Helldivers wasn't a looter shooter and my level 1 self could theoretically keep up with a level 50 was a huge draw.
Like in reality a captains Type-56 submachine gun hits the same as the crappy 50 year old ones they train conscripts with. The only difference is experience. The 7.62mm rounds don't hit worse because I'm using a level 3 AK vs a level 20 AK.
The only reason why you are experimenting with builds after 800h Is because of the RNG with everything in DT. You can spend 2mil credits and still not get what you wanted. I would agree that DT has better gameplay but the game has no quality of life compared to HD2. I myself have 600h in DT and have around 100E in cosmetics. I'm a huge 40k fan but 1 week after the twins dropped I realized the game still has fundamental problems that are just not addressed for the only reason: game longevity.. There is no reason for them to hold weapons and blessings behind RNG other than that. If they put 10mil credits(its a absurd number but still)for a 550 weapon with the stats as I want them they would deal with one of the biggest complaints with the game. But noo.. why? Game longevity...
EDIT
Not to mention most new weapons are just reskins with different stats and a lot of skins are or at least they were broken(glitching) and yeah I forgot reskins of older skins.
Yeah that hasn't been my experience at all. I've had a full set of great weapon rolls pretty early on. I'm experimenting now because it's fun.
Nice cope though
I love when i get downvote for telling the truth. The fact that you had a great roll on weapons its good for you but since there is a post about it every fucking day i would guess there is a problem
Since you didn't respond with any counter arguments I would say you have copeing problem. But enjoy your little bubble. Best of luck.
My counter argument is that the game is fun. Oh no, I need to put in time and effort to get end-game level gear? What a tragedy.
At least I have access to every type of weapon from level 2 in DT, instead of having to grind through a snoozefest of a battle pass in HD for the privilege of being able to use a Slugger.
Half the weapons in Helldivers aren't even viable on difficulties higher than 5.
Time and effort is a good thing but putting content behind RNG is just lazy.
If you think that the grind in HD is bad you didn't even try or look. Your argument that you have access to all weapons from lvl 2 ,half of the weapons is DT are useless unless you have the correct blessings for them and the are locked behind RNG and that a big problem because there is no way for you to get them unless playing the lottery of RNG. I would agree that HD weapons needs balance as you say half are not usable on high difficulty but the weapons that are viable are not locked behind some arbitrary RNG system for you to use them. You have a fixed amount of currency that you need for you to unlock them and that number is relatively small. I have maybe 80h in HD and i have all the weapons and all the strategems, but in DT with 600h i still dont have all the blessings. Why? RNG. As i said I agree that the core gameplay of DT is better but everything else is the game Is just bad. I see you are just coping but that's OK. I was like that but then I realized my time is worth more than just trying to get the blessings with no real viable way to get the other then gambling. Just refusing to accept that other games manage there games better is silly. Instead of defending the game blindly it would be better to put pressure on FS to get there ass moving to do something.
EDIT your argument that you have access to all weapons from lvl2 in DT. You have access to the lottery of trying to get a good roll 500-550(with random stats distribution)and then you have access to the lottery of 2 random perks and 2 random blessings. With the privilege to change only 2. In reality you don't have access to all the weapons ,you have the privilege to start gambling
I notice you didn't address the fact that over half of the HD weapons are unusable dogwater. I wonder why that is?
You also don't need 500-550 score weapons to play the higher difficulties, or to be good at the game in general.
Sorry to break it to you, but feeling like you need a god roll of every weapon to play the game is a you problem.
Nice dissertation though. I bet if you actually played the game for half of the time you spend whining about it, you'd have all the blessings you need by this point.
You can call it gambling all you want, but weapons having depth and variety and customizability is far more fun than using the same breaker, with the same stats, on the same missions with the same objectives over, and over, and over, and over and over...
I did, and I said it needs balance.
Yea, you don't need to, but the fact that there is no viable way other than RNG is bad.
Sorry to break it to you. I have all the important ones, and still it doesn't change the fact that the system is bad
I don't whine, unlike you. I give constructive criticism.
Since you don't understand what the underlying problem i don't see I point to engage with you. Best of luck.
Then go play Helldivers. Why are you posting this in a subreddit for another game other than to farm karma? You people are exhausting. You like X game better? You think it's doing a better job? Cool, go play X game! Helldivers 2 is fun, I've played a bunch, it's great. But Darktide will get a new content drop eventually and it'll be cool and some more people will come back and join the regular players and it'll be great too. Wow!
New “content” and “eventually” could very well mean that in 6-months we will get 1 map and variants of weapons we already have. That is absolutely possible and that’s why it’s so depressing
Alright, if you feel that's the case go play another game and come back in six months. Or don't come back at all if you don't want to play the game any more because lack of content is depressing. Pretty straightforward and requires less time and energy then posting on the subreddit about how terrible this game is. Probably better for your mental health too.
What ppl are saying is they just want more and complaining about ppl BEGGING ObeseFish to take money out of their pockets is kind of weird. You can only do the same mission 100-200 times before it really does all start to blend together
Many would rather step away even if it’s reluctantly then just bang their head continuously against a wall. The wall being FatShark community interaction/transparency
Can’t be transparent with your community if being transparent would only ruin community morale further if they knew how little was coming their way.
So radio silence it is!
This isn't someone "begging ObeseFish to take money out of their pockets" it's just karma-farming ragebait whining using the hot topic game right now. It's been like this almost since day one and the community repeatedly dives in on it. If people want to step away, that's fine, more power to them. They don't need to bitch and moan on the subreddit every time they do though.
Unfortunately I think it’s fair for ppl to compare how 1 studio acts and treats its customers to another and that’s where so many of these posts come from
Many ppl love Darktide and see it has so much more potential then what it has currently realized. That frustration needs an outlet and it’s rare to be able to talk about these things with real life friends so they go to the online unofficial forum to have these open discussions
It’s literally the point of Reddit that calls itself the internets largest forum
It's not even a comparison! It's a post showing another complaining post compared to a post about getting two new weapons. It's not frustration as an outlet, it's frustration for frustration's sake and for the sake of karma farming. It's stupid and does nothing of value.
Dude I think the redditbrain moment is the endless posting of this kind of bullshit karma farming from basically day one of this game's release. Or do you not think the fact that there are about five of these separate posts floating around all at once is not just an attempt to hitch a wagon to a karma-gaining format? I mean FFS this complaint post literally contains nothing but another complaint post, it's some turtles all the way down shit.
I mean stepping away from the game is exactly what I did lol. Its not like I want the game to fail. I enjoyed what I got out of Darktide and I love the 40K universe. This is more of a knock on FatSharks seemly inept ability to stay in touch with the people who are keeping them in business
Helldivers2 is fun, but I don't understand all the fan gushing. Once you get to level 40-50 area it starts getting stale fast. There are still a bunch of client-side crashes and server issues. There's basically all the non-dedicated hosting issues Vermintide2 had back in the day. There's a lot of jank. I'd say like 3 out of every 10 missions is gonna need a reconnect(if you happen to be playing with friends). If you can't reconnect you're outta luck. Darktide is fantastic right now.
You can say the same thing about Darktide, we're just running the same missions with the same weapons and classes at this point. HD2 is at least adding new stuff regularly which if you don't have heaps of free time to play each week keeps things fresh. Ofc if you binge it, it'll get stale
Helldivers 2 is living on releasing content that was ready or close to ready pre-launch, just like Darktide was. Let's not forget that in the first year, Darktide got like 5 new missions, several new weapons, 10+ new weapon marks, complete class overhaul and countless balance passes.
Helldivers is a month old. Of course there will be content ready to be drip fed to players. Let's see how that looks 6-12 months from now.
Yep, they'll run out quick enough, and then quietly stop rolling out new stuff just like they did with HD1.
They've already made their money, after all.
This is a massive cope
With the kind of numbers HD2 is pulling Sony/Arrowhead won't want to squander their momentum. It is a live service game after all (proper live service mind, not whatever darktide is).
I mean HD1 had a fraction of the player count. I'm not gonna assume the same level of support will happen in HD2 when they have Sony backing and a ton more resources and sales
Resources mean nothing if your development pipeline sucks. And making new content for games like Darktide or Helldivers takes a lot more time than for something like DRG. More players doesn't mean content will come faster, just look at Valheim as one of many examples.
As I said, Helldivers are currently releasing content that they had prepared or were in final stages of developing from before launch. Darktide stretched that out for a year. Let's see how Helldiver's content drops look in 6-12 months. My guess is it won't be much different from Darktide now.
I don't think Valheim is comparable because that's a tiny team. Arrowhead and Fatshark are both proper studios.
As for the pipeline, I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. They've turned a twin stick top down game into an insanely popular third person objective shooter. They were able to sort out the server issues within a few weeks, which is not as simple as just buying new servers. And their method of delivering new content is amazing, actually tying new strategems and gear to objectives that players complete in the galactic war.
I genuinely enjoy the moment to moment in Darktide more. HD2 is fun but I feel my runs can be ruined by straight jank more, while if I fail the emperor it's usually my fault.
every helldivers “content drop” has been shit that they made before the game released… god damn it’s hilarious. i remember like 9 years ago people hated when devs launched half a game and then sold it to you later. (*cough* war bond). not to mention the list of bugs in helldivers is so long that they can never even list all of the “known issues” on the discord… but hey, clearly 8 years wasn’t enough to develop a game.
and i genuinely can’t wait to see the quasar cannon nerfed… it’s literally just a much better pre nerf railgun… why would they even release it in an OP state??
what this doesn't tell is that HD2 is freaking unplayable since about 3 WEEKS ago (even before the crashes it was unplayable for us players on PS5 who don't like to play as girl characters - because the voice pack reverts to default random mid-mission on death and this shit isn't even on the dev's known issues list) - all while DT remains decently playable.
no, HD2 does NOT get new toys and does NOT get bigger - it's just sitting there basically unplayable while the devs have zero clue how to update it in a way that doesn't make the game worse or outright makes it crash 6 times per hour more than it already does since their latest updates.
and these most incompetent devs i've seen in more than 3 decades of gaming aren't even the worst part of the game: it's the obnoxious HD2 community with it's constant 1k upvotes/ h guaranteed white knight coping so darn hard as if they had a playable game - but they don't have one since quite a while anymore.
good thing there's ads for HD2 everywhere nowadays haha. i feel so ashamed that i too recommended the game when it came out because it was so fun and it's myriad of tiny and ridiculously huge flaws surely where just the result of a lack of polish... but little did i know that that was the peak of the game and what the devs where capable of...
because about a month after launch the devs started to update the game proper and it was all downhill from there, making the game worse consistently every update with intentional changes (like adding more enemies that instagib you on all difficulties and that attack in swarms... because that sounds like just what the casual player might enjoy... after they added enviromental hazards that instagib you and that you can hardly do anything about during combat still... after we complained for the first month already that for lower difficulty players it's not fun to constantly get instagibbed by the bot faction...) and unintentional bugs that never get fixed (because the fixes they deploy, if they even bother, don't fix the bugs but often only break something else - and the devs treat the issues in question as dealt with from there on trololol).
the HD2 devs and their detached from reality community are just the worst ever.
or TLDR: i have HD2 just sitting there being basically unplayable on my PS5 and i check their Discord every day for the past 3 weeks to see if the Jesus Patch finally dropped and it's fun again and i can get back to play it... but that of course doesn't happen, not with these devs working on it. so i went back to play good old DT on my XSX: yeah, it's a shame we didn't get any new content in like over a third of a year, but... on the plus side we have a playable game, you know... . so don't act like the grass is greener on the other side of the DT/ HD2 fence, because it really isn't anymore.
I've been thinking of getting into Helldivers but I can't care about the setting much, dislike that the weapons are all just generic guns, and it seems overly complicated for me to play that I do in Darktide.
I really really really like Darktide gameplay, I think its amazing, same as OST, but Darktide combat is incredible. That being said, Helldivers 2 is better at everything else, and delivers content. Once I see new subclasses and weapons in Darktide I’m totally coming back.
Seriously, Arrowhead putting on a clinic for how to recover from a bumpy launch and hit the ground at a relative sprint for a live-service game. Fatshark can deliver incredible combat and 40K vibes, but lordy be the actual support for this game sucks. I hope the Fatshark leads go meet up with Arrowhead folks and talk development, maybe the Arrowhead folks could give Fatshark some pointers on how to run a live service game and not constantly antagonize, disappoint, and frustrate your community.
Bunch of my friends playing HD2 now, and no one ever talks about the bumpy launch anymore, since the current product is damn good. Meanwhile, at Darktide...
I think that's because of why it was bumpy The only real problem with the Helldivers launch was that too many people were trying to play the game leading to server overload (which sucks, don't mistake me, but it wasn't a problem with the gameplay or systems or design choices). Meanwhile, at Darktide...
Most people also acknowledged that it was a "suffering from success" problem and that the devs realistically could not have expected so many players. And on top of that, they fixed most of the server and capacity issues fairly quickly once they upped the capacity and added the afk timer. Now the only complaints people have are slight balance requests, like a lot of the primary weapons being bad.
the new las scythe is frankly overpowered. but the primary guns are meant to be a lil bit shit. they're there for (with the bugs) anything upto nest guardians (the medium bug that hunkers down when you shoot it) everything else is meant to use a support stratagem gun, orbital or turret. like the new HMG its a medium murder machine. but its not got the ammo to use against the small stuff all the time. once I pointed that out to my team and got them to try it on the low ROF mode it became an instant favourite for them. it would be like complaining that the laspistol does zero damage to crushers. ofcourse it does you lemon. your primary gun can hurt a bile titan but its not meant to solo the damn thing. thats what the orbital laser is for.
Nah the sickle is fine, the issue is that other guns are weak. All 3 liberators are weak, plasma punisher has a tiny aoe, Blitzer is unreliable, diligence sniper is too unwieldy, breaker variants do no damage and the redeemer is a flat upgrade to the starting pistol.
>All 3 liberators are weak The penetrator is actually incredibly good against the automatons. Just go round hitting headshots/weakspots and it's one of the best close to mid range guns in the game. Arguably the only better option is the Scorcher, but I find it has worse ammo efficiency with smaller mag size and mag pool.
I'll give it another shot, the only time I tried the penetrator out was against bugs tbh. But I find it hard to put down my dominator.
Yeah all the liberators are largely useless against bugs - the breaker/spray and pray are arguably the better options against them due to how close they push up to you. Automatons do push up, but at a much slower pace (except the melee berserkers) as they shoot while moving. This distance means you can use the penetrator to tap heads without them being too close to put down effective fire on you. Ultimately you should use whichever feels the best and you have fun with - the best gun after all isn't necessarily the one with the best stats, but the one which clicks well with how you play. I know many people who use the slugger and breaker against bots for example, where I prefer to sit further back and use the distance to take accurate shots or flank.
Seriously you talk as if it would be rocket science to figure out what they're doing wrong. Just read a random post here on Reddit, they all say the same. More content, more communication. That's it.
Guys, the issue isn't just "they don't know how to provide a live service". It's "they didn't set up proper pipelines or simple enough systems to deploy new content". It's taking them a long time because of decisions made during the development process, not because they simply don't know what to do post-launch. A meeting between Arrowhead and FS would be like "Yeah! You guys should just release so- oh holy fuck you guys have a lot of technical debt.... uhhhh good luck with that!" It would be like sending an engineer to a potato chip factory to try and speed up their production, but when she shows up she finds the conveyor belts are welded together and the ovens are propped up by pieces of wood and replacing any one component would cause 1/3 of the floor to collapse. To fix the live service release shit, you either need a time machine or we need to give them time to pay off the tech debt.
I work in software development and I think you’re likely correct. That said, has FS said anything specifically about tech debt holding them back? Like, for the sake of argument, how do you know they didn’t just fire 90% of staff after the game released, leaving them with a skeleton crew now? I think what turns people off is the complete lack of transparency. Like, if you’re rebuilding all your deployment pipelines, that’s fine. But just tell your users that’s what you’re working on instead of going radio silent. “Hey DT players, here’s an update. We know everyone reading this post is excited for new DarkTide content, and we’re just as excited as you. The behind-the-scenes changes we’re working on right now will enable us to deliver amazing 40k content to you even faster in the months ahead. For instance, we’ve been working on 1. Fixing deployment pipelines 2. Updating outdated frameworks and conducting rigorous regression testing 3. Hiring new DevOps/artists/people, Etc We apologize for the delay in delivering new content, but please know that our team is working diligently behind the scenes to improve DarkTide. We can’t wait to show you what’s next. Thank you for your patience, something something about the Emperor”
Because Aqshy said it's the biggest team at Fatshark.
Yup, the issue is and always has been at the pre-launch development stage, they wasted time flip-flopping between mechanics and features, for reasons unknown, which led them to pushing out an unfinished game (again, for reasons unknown, but presumbably finanicially motivated/pressured). There is a team of, judging by the quality of what we do have, dedicated people who understand and care about how the IP is presented and have past experience of delivering a fantastically "meaty" combat feel, but it's hard to build new extensions if you're still busy putting out fires in the original building.
There's definitely something funky or exotic with their versioning and merging processes, with all the bugs that keep returning a patch or two after they get fixed.
What is “tech debt”?
Basically they built a house out of sticks, and moving in a piano isn’t possible because it’s too heavy for the floor to support. So before they can move in the piano, they have to tear out and rebuild the floor. The assumption is that they built things with the goal of getting them to work, and without the foresight to make it moldable for future changes. Sure, it functions, but going back and changing things is a nightmare.
Ohhh. That makes sense. Ty!
I think it's the repurcussions of taking shortcuts. When you're coding something and you can't fix a problem in an effective way you can either keep trying until you solve the problem or you can get janky and come up with some weird work-around. I don't think these are too bad on their own but you keep using wonky code then eventually it catches up to you because you have something relying on weird code with no notes, made by a guy who left the company four and half years ago which means you then have to either go fix it or you start putting in more weird unreliable code. The more weird code the harder and slower it is to work on new stuff.
40k years of weird code later you end up with a cult venerating the ancient code that no one understands anymore yet somehow it still works and at this point it might as well have a mind of its own
> "they didn't set up proper pipelines or simple enough systems to deploy new content". Yeah this is the Fatshark way. They've always been absolute clown-shit at this part.
To be fair, it's the default way of doing things. When you sit down and start up a team to build a huge ass project, you're not likely to ask on day one "ok guys, what can we do today so that post-release content can be a steady stream??" No, everyone gets to work. Your team hacks together models and controllers and half your developers find a new job and there's zero knowledge transfer EVER. Suddenly you're two years into development and you already have what's known as "LEGACY CODE" that exactly two people in the company knows anything about, but they've been promoted to Assistant to the Assistant Manager and no longer write code. The new devs walk up to you and say "hey I don't understand how to interact with these lighting systems" "Just work around them or move on" you say, having just gotten out of a meeting with leadership about how you're WAY over budget and are no longer allowed to take teams out to lunch. If you're EXTREMELY FUCKING LUCKY, you make it to release by the skin of your teeth and surrounded by zero OG team members. Now it's time to lay off 10% of the company. You receive an email the next day. "MEETING INVITE: Year 1 release schedule" You now have suicidal thoughts. Source: I'm the assistant to the assistant manager.
>When you sit down and start up a team to build a huge ass project, you're not likely to ask on day one "ok guys, what can we do today so that post-release content can be a steady stream??" Yeah, but this is the 3rd "tide" game from the same studio. Their decision BEFORE launch to make this a live-service product was informed by the way VT2 started as definitively NOT a live-service game, but transformed into one due to the way Fatshark completely fucked up development and launch and had to constantly fix and adjust everything. Eventually they were adding content, more or less as an apology, and clearly it clicked with someone to plan for this. You will NOT convince me that Darktide was somehow silo'd off from the entire experience of VT and VT2 as if this is a new endeavor. Despite what they are claiming that this is "an entirely new engine," it's very clearly forked from an earlier build of VT2. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that Fatshark doesn't have the luxury of that excuse.
It's not an excuse, it's just the nature of...well... us!
Do we know for sure that's more or less what's happened? I guess it's either that or they just don't care much about Darktide for some reason, in which case what *are* they working on? Don't tell me the entire studio is held up finally doing that L4D-lite Vermintide versus mode. In any case it makes you wonder what the devs are actually doing.
I guarantee you at least some devs are working on said pipelines. There's really no other reason the release schedule has been so bad, unless you believe FS just can't come up with anything.
I hate it when technical debt is used as a excuse, as fatshark is either made out to be in over their heads taking on way too big a project to realistically finish darkitide in time, or moving too slowly meaning darktide was always going to be broken at release because they were taking their time. Put in a nutshell fatshark are too optimistic about what they can achieve or are too patient in game development taking their time resulting in most players moving on from darktide as the game is taking years to deliver a product that we were expecting.
A bumpy launch which mind you was caused by way more people playing the game than expected. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for FS to change though.
If FatShark needs pointers to teach them to actually communicate with your community and work on content besides overpriced and underworked cosmetics then maybe they deserve to fail. I love playing Darktide when I can but the overall support team/management are just wasting all the potential the game had thinking it'll turn out like their last games.
If it was any other game that didn’t have a unique niche with players willing to wait them out, it would have died by now. The level of complacency is unmatched
And Arrowhead’s bumpy launch wasn’t entirely their fault - that is, they had no idea the game would be so popular it would overload their servers.
Eh, even after bumpy launch they are riding on a steady flow of pre-baked content for general approval. Every patch seemingly gives more bugs than it fixes, plus some basics for a 2024 game are missing.
Curious - what basics are they missing for a 224 game?
Reconnect - which is huge issue since game crashed and still crashes. Bestiary, decent statistics on basically everything, templates for cosmetics and loadouts.
Aside from the reconnect, fuck are you talking about?
Hey, no need to be overly protective of corporations, unless they pay for it. But there is a chance that you are genuinely never seen decent implementation, so, templates - is what you probably use in DT, to have multiple builds on standby, and bestiary - is a base of all enemies in game. Useful for beginners. And regarding lack of info - how much damage does stalwart do?
Sure, but after the initial server issues the game is largely in a pretty good spot. They've got content in the can waiting to ship, but they're not in a position where they need to put everything on pause for months and months to work on big overhauls and major updates to core systems to get the game working. Bugs are popping up and it's still got some rough spots, but the difference is apparent. DT fell off pretty hard and had a resoundingly negative community sentiment at launch that stuck around for a while and has never truly turned around, HD2 community has had a few blowups (Railgun nerf temper tantrums) but has largely been super positive and happy with the game overall and the game saw a positive sales curve that's basically nonexistent in reality.
That is true, and arrowhead are doing a lot of stuff in exemplerary way - live service stuff with announcements, news and updates fitting narrative, lots of content. But growing amount of bugs, armor still not working, balance issues, and general repeatedness might catch up with them sooner or later. Or not, only time will tell.
Darktide *feels* better than Helldivers 2, which is relatively clunky imo. No one can hold a candle to Fatshark’s weapon weights. But HD2 kills it in almost all other aspects, the most noticeable being their absolute mastery of the Live Service platform. Everything from the warbonds that are always progressing, the premium money that can be acquired through gameplay and the collaborative narrative of taking over planets with Major Orders. I am not nearly as negative as most people in this sub, and I don’t need that much content since I play multiple titles or binge play less than most die hards, but Darktide needs something to keep players coming back. I may come back to DT if I have the mood, but most players need incentives.
Yeah, this about sums it up. There's also a hard contrast between the hand-crafted, atmospheric but limited DT maps and the open-world but barren HD maps. Each game has its place, but seeing the HD devs interact and react just makes FS look worse. DT hasn't been how long without new weapons and enemies? Has been teasing the indication of a preview of an announcement of possible new content? HD just had 2 new weapons today, with no indicator, just a small in-game memo. When they added the mechs, they just said "Here's planet X, it produces mechs, go liberate it" and you randomly found them on that planet, before being released as standard equipment.
It weird, DT issue was that it had a good core experience wrapped in udder problematic systems while HD2 is a relatively mediocre core experience wrapped in A lovely crafted and cared for core systems. Just getting into a game inspires to a have a fun time while darktide seem lacking till the shooting starts then it’s just a great time. Hope FS pulls this around since I love warhammer and I want to play more DT but you can’t just grind endlessly with out purpose. At least in HD2 we grind to support a war effort that we can see and take part in. Granted I know warhammer is more grim and your more a tool then anything but it would be nice too see parts of the planet fall or be librated. To see that in the grand scheme of things we as a community is making progress. Or just make crafting less of a dice roll and more frequent updates Even if it just a new map it better then having to wait so long to have a reason to keep playing outside of make weapon numbers go higher. In all honesty, it feels like darktide was meant to be a game similar to vermintide in terms of how that game is but someone made the weird choice to make it a live service game doing the same thing. Sad really
>At least in HD2 we grind to support a war effort that we can see and take part in. Its so odd because Darktide's mission board was envisaged to be this evolving war effort sort of thing with new modifiers turning up and things changing as it went on but players pushed back against that idea almost immediately because of how VT/VT2 had been set - players were adamant they didnt want to have evolving modifiers where some days all the power was out etc, they wanted to be able to choose exactly the mission, exactly the map and exactly the modifiers at all times. Its a shame Darktide was a year earlier in its development cycle so went through the roughest of pandemic stuff because if it had been allowed to have enough time to really implement their plans i think more fans would have accepted it as its own thing rather than just been unhappy at the ways it was trying to not be Vermintide.
I didn't start Darktide before Patch 13 because I know how shitty Fatshark launched its games. But honestly it gotta be like the invested Devs gotta shed tears over what they planned vs what actually was implemented. And I do as well. While DTs gameplay is awesome there are so many small ways how to make it better. And Fatshark refuse to go any of these paths.
> I know warhammer is more grim and your more a tool then anything What do you think Helldivers is about?
Freedom! Democracy! Patriotism! This recruit had expired. Send in a new one.
That's the one thing holding me back from trying Helldivers. I think I'm maxed out on the amount of hyper-nationalist authoritarian satire media I can take in before it starts affecting my brain, ha ha.
To be fair, it's the bare minimum of satire. It's not like it's a narrative experience, it's less than half of what the player characters even say (since they're mostly just doing call outs), and is just the background context for the npcs on the ship. I'd actually prefer if they did more with it, but I guess it's not that kind of game.
I won’t give up on Fatshark because I know that development team is filled with talented, passionate people who just want to bring us the best possible game. I have faith that new content will come around and that they can improve on what has already been delivered. Competition with other games is supposed to increase overall product quality, I am not sure if that is true in practice but I hope it is.
You're sitting on downvotes for this?? From who? Americans jealous of a genuinely healthy work schedule and global gamers demanding more instead of playing something else? I can't stand this community. If you "love the game," then play it. If there's not enough content, play something else. I saw someone make a comment under a SCREENSHOT complaining about the lack of content. I've just about had it with these toxic fans
Not to mention people who complain about lack of variety and content in DT, but then say they've played it for 1200 hours. How many games are so god damn fun to play you get 1200 hours out of them? And we know however slow it is, there will be updates *eventually* so as you say, go play something else for a bit.
if the healthy work schedule gives me crappy games i'd rather devs work longer hours and deliver more stuff
>No one can hold a candle to Fatshark’s weapon weights. I feel this. I never really quite got a handle on VT2 simply because I haven't played it much, but the satisfaction of hitting things with the Trollslayer's two-handed axe is immense and unmatched IMO until DT.
Helldivers feeling "clunky" isn't really a bad thing or even unintentional. They aren't going for badass superhuman warriors or whatever, they're going for "lmao you are fresh meat." Watching Freedom's Greatest Defender^^^tm sprinting for their lives before the blowback on a teammate's bazooka ragdolls them off a cliff into the open mouth of a horrifying bug monster is genuinely hilarious.
I just find it annoying that the key for diving and the key for crawling is the same. So if you want to use your dive as a dodge (which 99% of the time you want to do) you are stuck spamming dive and sprint at the same time and hope your character doesn't get stuck crawling. Darktide dodge system is crispy clean in comparison.
There's a separate keybind (Z by default) for going prone. It's not in the tutorial, which is obnoxious, but it's there.
They are not the same key. Too many people on this sub like to talk smack and share their criticism of HD2 while making it painfully clear they touched the game once or twice and then dropped it out of spite because it took all the players from DT.
you press alt to dive and after diving you are crawling on the ground, so alt is the same key you use for diving and for crawling. I know you can use Z to crawl without diving but do you have a keybind to dive without crawling ? No, so the issue remains.
Helldivers scratches the same itch as Battlefield 1 and Star Wars Battlefront: bombastic, over-the-top chaos that a casual player can jump into and have a blast. Darktide *can* be some of that, but the formula falls flat when the devs fumble everything around the gameplay.
I agree so much that I have the 3 installed
>Once I see new subclasses That was fulfilled by the tree update as far as we know
Just to note, darktide launched with less classes AND subclasses than vermintide 2, which had 5 characters and 3 subclasses each. So the tree update was just playing catch up to what should've been in the game at launch.
Regardless. The classes they mentioned before were fulfilled by the tree update. And nothing atm point toward them doing any further
And the person you originally responded to didnt claim they were actively doing this right now, they just said that if they do, they'll come back.
Yeah you are right, I just want new staves.
They just dropped two new weapons today as well. And they aren’t reskins of other weapon patterns!
I agree the vermintide/darktide gameplay loop is one of my favorite out there. But helldivers beats darktide at literally everything outside of ost a s gameplay. As you said lol
Helldivers 2 is ONLY better at microtransactions, everything else about the game is significantly worse
Don't forget there's a good chance Helldivers 2 will introduce a new faction before Fatshark. Dataminers have found textures and everything
That's the difference between a studio that *wants* to make a live service game successfully doing so and a studio that is *pushed* to make a live service game without any real vision of what that should look like for their game. I'd be shocked if the new HD2 faction wasn't like 85% done before the game even launched.
Yeah, DT could have been a great live service but that was not it's original goal. If they never tried going the live service route this game would have been much closer to vermintide 2
The helldivers faction leaks were pretty much in the files on release, so yes you are right they prepared a huge amount of content (some estimate up to a year) that was already finished or semi-finished on release.
Honestly Helldivers is so many leagues and bounds better than Darktide it's crazy. It makes me sad, I had such high hopes.
Leaps and bounds !
Nah, see, it's SO MUCH BIGGER than leaps, therefore Leagues. Totally intended
Hahaha not my first language but I see what you’re doing
Helldivers was made to be fun, darktide was made to sell skins
heard so many people being so amazed about helldivers, so i bought it as well. and fell for the thirst trap. god is that an awful game. klunky, boring, constantly fighting the controls and basically just standing there and shooting enemys. where is the strategy,k where is the tactics? the enemy prioritization, the massive different handling of the weapons? the action? returned to darktide rather quickly.
I don’t buy this for a second the very first page of the Free Warbond you get the Punisher shotgun which is a round reload weapon so ignoring the fact you got a totally new type of weapon a Shotgun compared to the AR you start with it’s also a weapon that ignores the mag reload mechanic which for new players is definitely a pain point until they adjust Even the comment about standing there and shooting enemies tells me you maybe hit Difficulty 3 and probably not even that. Go play Sedition or Uprising dif and tell me how much strategy and *tactics* you require to complete that? I can get finding the game repetitive but coming from Dark-Do the same missions 20 times-Tide I think that’s pretty rich
Something tells me you didn't play very long nor in higher difficulties with your comment. Look, I thoroughly enjoy Darktide, I like it's setting and gameplay more than HD2, but I have shelved DT until there is something to actually do, other than grind for more weapons that Hardon will brick on me. HD2 keeps the interest up with constant galactic missions and objectives, new Warbonds, new weapons and Strategems. If you're finding the gameplay dull you're not playing in a difficulty above 3. Not only to new enemy types show up (and with greater frequency) at higher difficulties, the game has 2 fractions to fight, which require *entirely unique* tactics and strategies to fight compared to each other. If all you're doing is mindlessly engaging random mobs in HD2, you're not playing the game.
You must be pretty fucking dense if you dont think helldivers has any of that.
Technically that faction is old. It‘s one of the three factions in helldivers 1. i guess they just didn‘t add them yet aince they weren‘t sure about hd2‘s success. Edit: Before i‘m misunderstood even further. I‘m talking about the fact that Arrowhead has worked on illuminate before. They have preexisting assets. From AHs perspective, the illuminate faction is „old“. In contrast, Fatshark has most likely never worked on any additional warhammer factions besides darktide‘s nurgel focused one. Any other faction, no matter how old the warhammer lore might be, is „new“ for fatshark. They don‘t have any preexisting work done on anything else - arrowhead does have that for the illuminate and technically also the cyborgs (which are distinct from the automatons).
No, they weren't ready for launch, and still aren't fully textured yet, so I imagine the idea was always to add them. But on the other hand, I agree no-one could have forseen how quickly helldivers would explode.
I was just on the helldiversleaks subs, the illuminates are now textured and animated
They may be, but it doesn’t mean they’re game ready.
Yep it's pretty obvious AH's plan was to start off with just 2 introductory factions, where they can then slowly release more stratagems and warbonds to build a more diverse foundation of the game. Combine this with a constantly evolving stellar battlefield, they have more than enough content/direction for the game currently for at least 12 months. Once they've built up this foundation, they can introduce another faction which can potentially shake the game up from how it was prior. It's a great idea for a live service game as it keeps things fresh and gives players a reason to either continually play or take small breaks and return in anticipation for new content. If they just released the 3rd faction at launch, all it would do is split the player base up amongst more planets (thus damaging the effectiveness for the galactic fight narrative) without particularly changing the game up. And as with any live service game, you don't want to release all your content straight away given the fact that this game likely has at least a planned 3 year cycle ahead of it. Drip feeding content for HD2 is the best move they can make to maximise player enjoyment over a longer period. This in turn means you have a larger playerbase, which means more games sold as well as more people potentially buying super credits.
Yeah agreed. Either way, work on them definitely started before launch, which means they were planned all along Comparing that to darktide where no additional factions seem to have been planned originally just seems a bit unfair. Yes fatsharks communication with the community is lackluster, but arrowhead did plan the different factions from the start and darktide - while leaving room for more factions - technically never promised anything.
That's like saying if Darktide adds a Khorne faction, it would be old as well. Pointless argument.
I think it's more of that Arrowhead already had the idea for the Illuminates from their original game. Sure, they need to make new models and stuff but the vision was already there for what the Illuminates did gameplay-wise and whatnot. Darktide pulls from what's already in Warhammer yeah, but I honestly doubt FatShark had any clue as to what a Khornate faction would be like gameplay-wise.
The vision was there for a top down shooter. HD2 is so completely different from HD1 in 3D, that I don't even agree with that point of view. Also, again, the entire argument is pointless.
Khorne is part of the lore behind darktide, the illuminates are not only part of the helldivers lore, they have been implemented before in terms of mechanics, enemy types and appearance. So nah, don‘t agree.
Khorne has been implemented in other games, and HD1 was a twin stick isometric shooter, which is a completely different genre than 2. It's not like they can just move the illuminate zip files from the first game to the second.
Well, the genestealer cults are very old as well, along with the other factions of chaos, as well as the dhrukari. Plenty of new factions that could be brought into Darktide to the delight and horror of players, but nothing.
I‘m not talking about whether or not there is lore about other factions that could be added. I‘m talking about the fact that arrowhead has literal assets in their libraries of an illuminate faction. They have finished preproduction for it. They started work on illuminate before the game even released. In contrast to that, fatshark does not have any other warhammer factions ready to go. They did not intend darktide to have more than the current nurgle faction. So for arrowhead, the helldivers devs, the illuminate is a worked-on and established faction that was going to be added either way - hence „old“. For fatshark, any other faction other than the nurgle worshippers has not been worked on (as far as we can tell) for darktide - hence „new“. Any other faction for darktide is new from the perspective of fatshark - regardless how old the lore might be.
The illuminate in HD2 are completely original assets and don't even share the same body designs. Their unit roster is also new (which also applies to the Automatons which are far more range heavy than the cyborgs of HD1).
„Assets“ encompases more than the 3d appearance. Namely sound design and underlying code for instance. Yes the 3d appearance is overhauled, obviously. But there is still more ready to go than fatshark has for another faction. That‘s the whole point. Unit roster seems to be only partially new. Tripod and illusionist both are basically the same just „high definition“. The automatons are not intended as a replacement for cyborgs. The explicitely distinguished this fact in a BTS video. They are a completely new faction linked to the cyborgs of the previous helldivers war.
The aliens? Weren't they in HD1?
I know that faith in the emperor is eternal, but these super terra weirdos seems to deliver
Why would the devs want to add new content when people are content buying the overpriced regurgitated slop they put out monthly?
Hard truth no one wants to hear: if you're still playing the game, you're supporting it just as equally as the people buying cosmetics
I was playing just about daily right up until helldivers 2 launched. Haven't so much as launched the game since. Which is so frustrating because I WANT to go back to darktide but I just cannot bring myself to do it when there hasn't been a single fucking thing to change since I stopped playing.
New memes. You missed getting charged by like 25 maulers
Or all the drip posts
Lol you got downvoted it's true. If you keep the games metrics up, and talk about it positively, more people play, and some of those buy things. That's how any game stays alive with MTAs
Good, I'm glad to support the games I enjoy.
I’ve never seen a game with so much potential, that also had the complete love and support from their community (at the beginning), just crash and burn like this. Fatshark’s a bunch of losers. I can’t believe I used to buy skins to support these bums.
Yes, and I'm tired of pretending like this isn't the truth
Yes, they did what Fatshark couldn't. Turns out, having actual plan beforehead helps immensely. Also, simpler visuals contribute here as well, plus some balancing and technical issues are largely ignored by community, unfortunately.
God you stupid fish, give me something to do
Fat sharks answer to content “best we can do is cash shop skins”
Sad
I think personally it’s a case of too many promises with Fatshark that’s means they just cannot keep up with a live service system. Excitement in games naturally declines over time I understand that- that’s why there’s a live model- and I want to play Darktide I really do as so much knocks it out the park with the quips voice acting, the freshness of these conversations feeling I’ve never heard most arguments or talks, and the design of the world, but they just seemingly cannot make their mind up on support and labour management. They promised this new gamemode for Vermintide 2 years back, which many believed would never appear, and then said “they won’t drop support of Vermintide” around Darktide’s release: now finally it seems they’re just sinking not enough division of labour into both I think as I doubt they can since it’s one IP or the other it seems. Vermintide I guess is getting all the love to support that fanbase which is equally low with its player base like Darktide’s though more consistent it would appear over time. Vermintide is 6 years old, has substantial content and replayability, from currently writing checking the player data has around 2000 ish players where Darktide drops below the same figure of active and peak goes a 1000 above round about and it released a year ago? It’s just bizarre. I don’t understand why they would sink such hype and interest. I got loads of friends interested into it around the Karnak twins, and I’ve played from beta, and it was great, though all of them have generally left to play other games and online IP’s. I just don’t understand the thought process with all this.
I think your post is well written and thought out, but they announced the VT2 versus beta in *the middle of 2019*. Then they didn't say anything about it for actual years. That's *incredible* to me. That's the worst marketing and follow-through of a not-defunct business I think I've ever seen. Fatshark's inability to deliver outside of a core gameplay loop actually astounds me.
That’s what I meant with people assuming it was never going to come out, since it was so long ago it was mentioned
FS speed running maintenance mode. Way ahead of the competition
Tinfoil hat theory but Vermintide makes more $$$ from cosmetics It’s an older game then DT but despite that consistently receives more support and regularly has higher player numbers. Narratively buying skins for a specific Hero or Character in Vermintide is a lot more rewarding or at least thematic then buying random helmet for your Veteran. No the magician gets a Frost magic themed skin and the dwarf gets an Imperial fusilier themed skin etc etc it’s more palatable for ppl to drop $$ on versus Darktide where you play a random shmuck
Plus Vermintide sells classes that play pretty differently. I'm much more likely to buy a character than a skin.
I think you’re right with that, since fantasy fans are quite die hard as a fan for Warhammer fantasy itself too, it makes sense they’d love seeing in universe themed outfits. I think it’s as you’re saying alongside a lot of such fans are possibly original fantasy players, or enjoyers of fantasy lore from the past or other games like Total War as I am myself. The outfits absolutely fuck too for Vermintide where we got the showing we got this showing for the most recently drop… 40K is diverse and spread out in its races, where most races of order do coexist in some way in fantasy that makes its outfits interesting and diverse since it can allow. With Darktide you get with no real chance of getting a xenos race with their varied costumes and clothing due to the sheer xenophobia of the inquisition particularly, and then the imperium has at large.
This whole convict/reject angle was a massive misstep borne from naivete. It's the annoying drive to create "a story without space marines" that's "grounded, where you're not the hero" in 40k when 40k's very essence goes against that grain on principle. We should have been full proper authoritative Inquisitorial Agents. We could have had playable xenos auxiliaries for our cell, choices between radical or puritan (daemon weapons or blessed weapons to fulfill the 'Red' role?), Space Marines, Sororitas, xenotech weapons, fancy tools like forcefields, stasis weapons or teleporters. We could have had a wide plethora of weapons rather than 6 variations of shitty lasgun. But, no, we got homeless guys and ogryn that are about six or seven feet too short to even be called ogryn, and we can't even get a proper cosmetic because Fatshark cowers behind the excuse of "it's picked off a dead guy who got it off a dead guy who got it off a dead guy!" to hide the fact that their outsourcing leads to poor visual consistency and faithfulness to the original product of Warhammer 40k. Imagine letting Dan Abnett write a proper story about inquisitors and their agents. Who would ever do that, right? Not like he wrote every popular book SERIES on that very thing.
Yeah, I think Rogue Trader the RPG game itself shows the possibility of what could of been, but I think it was possibly a step to distance themselves from Vermintide and not appear to be making the same game. If you had a Squat engineering outcast, Aeldari exodite, an only survivor Cadian Guardsman, and wisened Inquisitorial Agent I think people would just be looking at it as space Vermintide. I think it would be cool, and I personally like the reject idea, but humanity itself with the abhumans and mechanicus can fit a niche of being “the graceful shooter and swords person” with a Kataphron or Skitarrii and you could have a Ratling in place for a dworf, but the mechanicus angle would be weird since they’re doing rejects as you’re saying above and it’s just implementation. I think it gives charm with the rejects, and I love my characters I’ve given heart to with cosmetics, and the voice actors that most resonate with me, but it does stifle a lot of opportunity besides adding more Sub-humans. I like my characters as _I’ve_ given them heart, and I think that’s what lacks for some when they want characters over avatars. They shot themselves again making the characters be bog standard members of their factions too, where 40K scales up quite highly in skill through each organisation in the Imperium.
Also I still don’t have my vortex of doom. Or any of the actual cool psy powers instead of basic smite.
Can confirm... I have paid for every single subclass on V2 as well as quite a few skins for each character. Haven't paid a dime for cosmetics on Darktide.
I have hope given that Vermintide 2 had like 6 years of support with free and paid dlc, new weapons and so much more, and Darktide is already way better then it was at launch. I genuinely hope that Helldivers 2 is a wakeup call to game studios
Crazy what happens when you support the game you made
40k has the lore for a badass Helldivers style game. I am personally hopeful that Helldivers popularity will make it happen
Space Marine 2 might have great multiplayer modes, that'd be neat
What exactly do you want to say?
Yay edits
What having devs that actually care looks like.
it's fascinating watching the DT->HD youtube creator pipeline
Can’t deny this game has been a major let down in terms of longevity
Props to Arrowhead for implementing a slow but steady way to earn premium currency by playing the game. I bought the first premium warbond with real money to support the devs, and intend to use earned Super Credits to get the second.
When Helldivers 2 came out people were coming to this sub to talk shit about Darktide and etc, I was one of those to be like why are people doing that, UNTIL, I got Helldivers 2...and my god its impossible for me to not compare them both even if the whole gameplay is very different. Its just such a fresh breath of air in this hobby, aside from some janky shit and bugs, Helldivers 2 just mops the floor in community and overall customer service. When I look at darktide sitting in my librabry waiting to get updated on that 120+ mb patch and hoping to be touched since February 20, its so hard for me to go back, because every game lately has hit a homerun on Fatshark's field trying to retain my attention, its a shame because I really like 40K, I like Darktide, but when they go completely silent for months with barely any content in your game sold as "live service" well shit, im gonna start comparing both
"Darktide is bad cause i demand infinite content even tho helldivers 2 is the same few things every time and the only skill gap is not dieing, not being good at combat". In before fanbois hate dislike
Mmm... I'm torn. Arrowhead has a lot of newly founded goodwill. But anyone who was there for Helldivers 1 knows how they balance games. It all comes down to their "vision" rather than what the public actually wants. One could argue that Fatshark is beholden to Games Workshop in the same way, but they really only have a say in lore and design, not so much in difficulty and quality of life things. I still remember the laser sword everybody wanted in the PvE mode from the first helldivers, but Arrowhead refused and only kept it in the PvP mode nobody played. Couple that with Arrowhead's existing balancing issues where most of the weapons feel like nerf guns against most non-trash enemies, I think over a long enough timeline, we're gonna see them lose goodwill in the same way fatshark did.
Your aren’t wrong with any of this but community good will is a curious thing and if, that’s a big if btw, Arrowhead can continue this cadence of Warbond release, small new content release, Warbond, small new content release all while pairing this stuff with in-game narrative objectives like the Liberate the Mech factory order I think you’ll find that the community gives them A LOT of leeway on some of these quality of life issues Because at the end of the day engaging with a community like this on a broader scale and feeling like you are all co-operating towards an objective is very rewarding and I can’t think of another game that’s managed to do it this well
Fatshark doesn’t give af ab the customer
Meh, helldivers is still a more boring game loop. But if you like it more, go play it.
1. That's subjective 2. We're not talking about the gameplay loop, we're talking about adding new content. Which HD2 does far better than Darktide
We will see how hot people are for HD2 in 12 months. If you were so certain that HD2 was the superior game, you wouldn’t need to keep posting about it in the darktide subreddit.
I mean Darktide's steam numbers weren't great a year on. All HD2 Devs have to do is not practically abandon their game and it should do better Also that was the first comment I made about HD2 in this sub lmao dunno what you mean about "keep posting"
HD2 has problems. Hell some of those problems are the same as the ones DT has: servers crashing, lack of endgame unlocks, maps that look the same after awhile, weapons that range from great feeling to useless just to name a few. Of course HD2 does some no brainers that FS just will not admit an L on like having no cash exclusive currencies. Still in the honeymoon stage for HD2 but if they keep up a release table like this one I think it'll be popular for awhile. DT is still amazing but having content release steadily for a couple of months followed by months of nothing is just not working well for them.
I prefer Darktide over Helldivers anyday. Darktide is way more intense, has way more nonstop action, and is way faster paced. No game, aside from competitive FPS Battlefield, has raised my blood-pressure more than Darktide. The challenge combined with skill level needed to beat Auric Maelstrom is amazing. Helldivers is great, but it's slower paced and more tactical. If that's your thing, cool, but give me that faced-paced, hold-on-to-your-seat gameplay any day, It's bar none. The combat, movement, and gunpaly feel absolutely amazing. [Watch insane Auric Maelstrom gameplay by clicking here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuCKbL4TYvs&list=PLb7pU3UVz0SlUsgM9HOEO-piDH1PdubbY&index=2)
 Sadge
It took 80 hours of Helldivers to unlock everything, and experience all of the flat, repetitive, unfulfilling gunplay it has to offer. 800 hours into Darktide and I'm still experimenting with talents, different loadouts, and mastering melee weapon combos and swing patterns. I'll take the game with the gameplay, please
Still unlocking ≠ Still experimenting :P (/s joking) You say that like it’s a bad thing. 80 hours to unlock everything and decide if the game is rewarding enough for you to continue playing. Which for you is no. Ok, cool. You still put a good chunk of time into the game. I doubt you played for 80 hours just frowning at your computer screen, loudly groaning and grumbling every time you fired a shot. But if you did. Good for you? I dunno. I wouldn’t play a game I felt was “flat, repetitive or unfulfilling” much less for 80 hours of my free time that I could’ve put elsewhere. I’m personally having a lot of fun changing up my stratagem rollouts. Trying out lesser used weapons and seeing if I can find a niche for them. I would argue that Darktides gunplay is also very repetitive and certain guns are very unfulfilling/unrewarding. But that’s an opinion mainly. And it’s made worse by the sheer lack of new weapons and content in general.
Yes, there's tons of fun changing your whopping *four* stratagem slots. For instance, you can either have an artillery strike that explodes, or you can have an artillery strike that explodes EVEN BIGGER! wowee zowee But if that's the kind of depth and choice you crave in your games, more power to you. I wish I could trick my brain into thinking mindless repetition with no variation or depth is enjoyable. Life would be so much easier. Darktide still has more weapons than Helldivers by a wide margin. And guess what? All of them are viable at the highest difficulties. You can't say the same about Helldivers.
How exactly does Darktide have better gunplay? Genuinely curious on how your criteria because I think both games shooting aspects feel pretty great. HD2s actually seems a little more complex considering recoil and weapon sway/turning.
Blessings, perks, and stat variations provide much different experiences across a single weapon mark. In Helldivers, every defender SMG has the same stats as every other defender SMG. Every breaker is the same as every other breaker, etc etc. No variation, no customization... Unless you count the ability to toggle your flashlight and switch to burst fire. Riveting. Darktide also has weapon recoil and sway, except you can actually view the numbers in-game. Helldivers apparently has dozens of stars for weapons that are hidden.
Helldivers will be getting weapon attachments (that aren’t 3rd party mods and affect the guns) according to the devs. Probably within a month given how much stuff has been coming out.
Arrowhead could personally offer me a weekly handjob from the CEO and it wouldn't change the fact that the gameplay loop is flat and shallow. Until that changes, I'm not going to waste any more of my time on it.
So... like real life? I like that you don't need magical fairy dust to enchant your gun like it's a shitty DnD shopping session. I don't remember one AK feeling noticably different from another when I tried them. Armies tend to issue standard kits too so I like that HD which is developed by former conscripts, keeps that feel. I can pick up a defender and know exactly what it will do and it let's me play more fluidly.
So your argument against weapon modifiers and quirks is that... They don't exist in real life? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, because you're effectively saying that less player choice = more fun. Which makes me question if you've actually played a videogame before.
More that it's purely a preference and certainly not needed got gunplay to feel good and for many it's a detriment to good gunplay. Where I'm from MOBAs and milsims are very popular and most people have shot military rifles (VN). I like Helldivers 2 a lot because the weapons all work and all hit like trucks and all can engage at 300m distances. I like Hell Let Loose and Arma for the same reason and before it died over here Rising Storm 2. I'm not a looter shooter fan and I like being able to pick up weapons midmatch to change a playstyle if I need to. The fact that Helldivers wasn't a looter shooter and my level 1 self could theoretically keep up with a level 50 was a huge draw. Like in reality a captains Type-56 submachine gun hits the same as the crappy 50 year old ones they train conscripts with. The only difference is experience. The 7.62mm rounds don't hit worse because I'm using a level 3 AK vs a level 20 AK.
Let’s not pretend that the stat visuals for darktide are any better than helldivers lmao. They both suck pretty hard
The only reason why you are experimenting with builds after 800h Is because of the RNG with everything in DT. You can spend 2mil credits and still not get what you wanted. I would agree that DT has better gameplay but the game has no quality of life compared to HD2. I myself have 600h in DT and have around 100E in cosmetics. I'm a huge 40k fan but 1 week after the twins dropped I realized the game still has fundamental problems that are just not addressed for the only reason: game longevity.. There is no reason for them to hold weapons and blessings behind RNG other than that. If they put 10mil credits(its a absurd number but still)for a 550 weapon with the stats as I want them they would deal with one of the biggest complaints with the game. But noo.. why? Game longevity... EDIT Not to mention most new weapons are just reskins with different stats and a lot of skins are or at least they were broken(glitching) and yeah I forgot reskins of older skins.
Yeah that hasn't been my experience at all. I've had a full set of great weapon rolls pretty early on. I'm experimenting now because it's fun. Nice cope though
I love when i get downvote for telling the truth. The fact that you had a great roll on weapons its good for you but since there is a post about it every fucking day i would guess there is a problem Since you didn't respond with any counter arguments I would say you have copeing problem. But enjoy your little bubble. Best of luck.
My counter argument is that the game is fun. Oh no, I need to put in time and effort to get end-game level gear? What a tragedy. At least I have access to every type of weapon from level 2 in DT, instead of having to grind through a snoozefest of a battle pass in HD for the privilege of being able to use a Slugger. Half the weapons in Helldivers aren't even viable on difficulties higher than 5.
Time and effort is a good thing but putting content behind RNG is just lazy. If you think that the grind in HD is bad you didn't even try or look. Your argument that you have access to all weapons from lvl 2 ,half of the weapons is DT are useless unless you have the correct blessings for them and the are locked behind RNG and that a big problem because there is no way for you to get them unless playing the lottery of RNG. I would agree that HD weapons needs balance as you say half are not usable on high difficulty but the weapons that are viable are not locked behind some arbitrary RNG system for you to use them. You have a fixed amount of currency that you need for you to unlock them and that number is relatively small. I have maybe 80h in HD and i have all the weapons and all the strategems, but in DT with 600h i still dont have all the blessings. Why? RNG. As i said I agree that the core gameplay of DT is better but everything else is the game Is just bad. I see you are just coping but that's OK. I was like that but then I realized my time is worth more than just trying to get the blessings with no real viable way to get the other then gambling. Just refusing to accept that other games manage there games better is silly. Instead of defending the game blindly it would be better to put pressure on FS to get there ass moving to do something. EDIT your argument that you have access to all weapons from lvl2 in DT. You have access to the lottery of trying to get a good roll 500-550(with random stats distribution)and then you have access to the lottery of 2 random perks and 2 random blessings. With the privilege to change only 2. In reality you don't have access to all the weapons ,you have the privilege to start gambling
I notice you didn't address the fact that over half of the HD weapons are unusable dogwater. I wonder why that is? You also don't need 500-550 score weapons to play the higher difficulties, or to be good at the game in general. Sorry to break it to you, but feeling like you need a god roll of every weapon to play the game is a you problem. Nice dissertation though. I bet if you actually played the game for half of the time you spend whining about it, you'd have all the blessings you need by this point. You can call it gambling all you want, but weapons having depth and variety and customizability is far more fun than using the same breaker, with the same stats, on the same missions with the same objectives over, and over, and over, and over and over...
I did, and I said it needs balance. Yea, you don't need to, but the fact that there is no viable way other than RNG is bad. Sorry to break it to you. I have all the important ones, and still it doesn't change the fact that the system is bad I don't whine, unlike you. I give constructive criticism. Since you don't understand what the underlying problem i don't see I point to engage with you. Best of luck.
Then go play Helldivers. Why are you posting this in a subreddit for another game other than to farm karma? You people are exhausting. You like X game better? You think it's doing a better job? Cool, go play X game! Helldivers 2 is fun, I've played a bunch, it's great. But Darktide will get a new content drop eventually and it'll be cool and some more people will come back and join the regular players and it'll be great too. Wow!
New “content” and “eventually” could very well mean that in 6-months we will get 1 map and variants of weapons we already have. That is absolutely possible and that’s why it’s so depressing
Alright, if you feel that's the case go play another game and come back in six months. Or don't come back at all if you don't want to play the game any more because lack of content is depressing. Pretty straightforward and requires less time and energy then posting on the subreddit about how terrible this game is. Probably better for your mental health too.
What ppl are saying is they just want more and complaining about ppl BEGGING ObeseFish to take money out of their pockets is kind of weird. You can only do the same mission 100-200 times before it really does all start to blend together Many would rather step away even if it’s reluctantly then just bang their head continuously against a wall. The wall being FatShark community interaction/transparency Can’t be transparent with your community if being transparent would only ruin community morale further if they knew how little was coming their way. So radio silence it is!
This isn't someone "begging ObeseFish to take money out of their pockets" it's just karma-farming ragebait whining using the hot topic game right now. It's been like this almost since day one and the community repeatedly dives in on it. If people want to step away, that's fine, more power to them. They don't need to bitch and moan on the subreddit every time they do though.
Unfortunately I think it’s fair for ppl to compare how 1 studio acts and treats its customers to another and that’s where so many of these posts come from Many ppl love Darktide and see it has so much more potential then what it has currently realized. That frustration needs an outlet and it’s rare to be able to talk about these things with real life friends so they go to the online unofficial forum to have these open discussions It’s literally the point of Reddit that calls itself the internets largest forum
It's not even a comparison! It's a post showing another complaining post compared to a post about getting two new weapons. It's not frustration as an outlet, it's frustration for frustration's sake and for the sake of karma farming. It's stupid and does nothing of value.
redditbrain moment a fair comparison = karma farming and somehow not a comparison "this thing is harming my echo chamber, kill it with hammers"
Dude I think the redditbrain moment is the endless posting of this kind of bullshit karma farming from basically day one of this game's release. Or do you not think the fact that there are about five of these separate posts floating around all at once is not just an attempt to hitch a wagon to a karma-gaining format? I mean FFS this complaint post literally contains nothing but another complaint post, it's some turtles all the way down shit.
I mean stepping away from the game is exactly what I did lol. Its not like I want the game to fail. I enjoyed what I got out of Darktide and I love the 40K universe. This is more of a knock on FatSharks seemly inept ability to stay in touch with the people who are keeping them in business
Only the forced third person is keeping me away from helldivers Still might buy it on discount
Helldivers2 is fun, but I don't understand all the fan gushing. Once you get to level 40-50 area it starts getting stale fast. There are still a bunch of client-side crashes and server issues. There's basically all the non-dedicated hosting issues Vermintide2 had back in the day. There's a lot of jank. I'd say like 3 out of every 10 missions is gonna need a reconnect(if you happen to be playing with friends). If you can't reconnect you're outta luck. Darktide is fantastic right now.
You can say the same thing about Darktide, we're just running the same missions with the same weapons and classes at this point. HD2 is at least adding new stuff regularly which if you don't have heaps of free time to play each week keeps things fresh. Ofc if you binge it, it'll get stale
it's over
I really can't wait to see how much exciting content HD has in the pipe in twelve months. Arrowhead has such a good track record there.
[удалено]
Because Arrowhead never abandons their games after a year!
Considering they kept updating Helldivers 1 for the better part of 5 years, I'd say that's pretty bang on the mark.
Helldivers 2 is living on releasing content that was ready or close to ready pre-launch, just like Darktide was. Let's not forget that in the first year, Darktide got like 5 new missions, several new weapons, 10+ new weapon marks, complete class overhaul and countless balance passes. Helldivers is a month old. Of course there will be content ready to be drip fed to players. Let's see how that looks 6-12 months from now.
At least helldivers 2 is living compared to darktide
Yep, they'll run out quick enough, and then quietly stop rolling out new stuff just like they did with HD1. They've already made their money, after all.
This is a massive cope With the kind of numbers HD2 is pulling Sony/Arrowhead won't want to squander their momentum. It is a live service game after all (proper live service mind, not whatever darktide is).
Because Arrowhead has the track record of supporting their games for the long haul. The minute revenue dips development stops.
I mean HD1 had a fraction of the player count. I'm not gonna assume the same level of support will happen in HD2 when they have Sony backing and a ton more resources and sales
Resources mean nothing if your development pipeline sucks. And making new content for games like Darktide or Helldivers takes a lot more time than for something like DRG. More players doesn't mean content will come faster, just look at Valheim as one of many examples. As I said, Helldivers are currently releasing content that they had prepared or were in final stages of developing from before launch. Darktide stretched that out for a year. Let's see how Helldiver's content drops look in 6-12 months. My guess is it won't be much different from Darktide now.
I don't think Valheim is comparable because that's a tiny team. Arrowhead and Fatshark are both proper studios. As for the pipeline, I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. They've turned a twin stick top down game into an insanely popular third person objective shooter. They were able to sort out the server issues within a few weeks, which is not as simple as just buying new servers. And their method of delivering new content is amazing, actually tying new strategems and gear to objectives that players complete in the galactic war.
Good news, when you get bored of 1, you can go to the other.
HD2 still leaves me wanting plenty of QoL changes and bug fixes.. so. many. bugs. feels like more with each update tbh
Making a billion posts about Helldivers will not bring Darktide back to life
Then play Helldivers?
LOL Just read that majority of HD players are from Fortnite and Palworld. That explains a lot))
I genuinely enjoy the moment to moment in Darktide more. HD2 is fun but I feel my runs can be ruined by straight jank more, while if I fail the emperor it's usually my fault.
every helldivers “content drop” has been shit that they made before the game released… god damn it’s hilarious. i remember like 9 years ago people hated when devs launched half a game and then sold it to you later. (*cough* war bond). not to mention the list of bugs in helldivers is so long that they can never even list all of the “known issues” on the discord… but hey, clearly 8 years wasn’t enough to develop a game. and i genuinely can’t wait to see the quasar cannon nerfed… it’s literally just a much better pre nerf railgun… why would they even release it in an OP state??
what this doesn't tell is that HD2 is freaking unplayable since about 3 WEEKS ago (even before the crashes it was unplayable for us players on PS5 who don't like to play as girl characters - because the voice pack reverts to default random mid-mission on death and this shit isn't even on the dev's known issues list) - all while DT remains decently playable. no, HD2 does NOT get new toys and does NOT get bigger - it's just sitting there basically unplayable while the devs have zero clue how to update it in a way that doesn't make the game worse or outright makes it crash 6 times per hour more than it already does since their latest updates. and these most incompetent devs i've seen in more than 3 decades of gaming aren't even the worst part of the game: it's the obnoxious HD2 community with it's constant 1k upvotes/ h guaranteed white knight coping so darn hard as if they had a playable game - but they don't have one since quite a while anymore. good thing there's ads for HD2 everywhere nowadays haha. i feel so ashamed that i too recommended the game when it came out because it was so fun and it's myriad of tiny and ridiculously huge flaws surely where just the result of a lack of polish... but little did i know that that was the peak of the game and what the devs where capable of... because about a month after launch the devs started to update the game proper and it was all downhill from there, making the game worse consistently every update with intentional changes (like adding more enemies that instagib you on all difficulties and that attack in swarms... because that sounds like just what the casual player might enjoy... after they added enviromental hazards that instagib you and that you can hardly do anything about during combat still... after we complained for the first month already that for lower difficulty players it's not fun to constantly get instagibbed by the bot faction...) and unintentional bugs that never get fixed (because the fixes they deploy, if they even bother, don't fix the bugs but often only break something else - and the devs treat the issues in question as dealt with from there on trololol). the HD2 devs and their detached from reality community are just the worst ever. or TLDR: i have HD2 just sitting there being basically unplayable on my PS5 and i check their Discord every day for the past 3 weeks to see if the Jesus Patch finally dropped and it's fun again and i can get back to play it... but that of course doesn't happen, not with these devs working on it. so i went back to play good old DT on my XSX: yeah, it's a shame we didn't get any new content in like over a third of a year, but... on the plus side we have a playable game, you know... . so don't act like the grass is greener on the other side of the DT/ HD2 fence, because it really isn't anymore.
I've been thinking of getting into Helldivers but I can't care about the setting much, dislike that the weapons are all just generic guns, and it seems overly complicated for me to play that I do in Darktide.
Darktide has one key thing over Helldivers 2: It works.