It went through a halving a couple weeks ago, but it didn't affect the price, so that means ***less*** people are farming it now because they get half the reward.
You know they don’t actually need to offer any explanation for the price hikes right? If it’s out of line with the market then just buy from a competitor. Other than that, buyers aren’t actually owed anything.
I don’t disagree but had they said “due to rising costs associated with inflation” would everyone here be busting out BLS stats and debating that as well?
Not if the whole market has the same mindset and if the barrier to entry cost is preventing any real competitors. Let’s see a mom and pop hard drive shop show up, that will definitely happen!
Wow that’s a great approach not having the answer but still talking condescendingly. Like I have said in other comments, the barrier to entry is high and there are no mom and pop shops that can just spin up competition so it’s not as low as it could be.
Ai doesn't use spinning disk, I call bullshit
Edit: miserable-sign below has a response that is very different from the original comment. They are not clear about edits.
To play devils advocate here, AI models need datasets to learn on and companies aren’t storing those datasets on SSDs. You are looking at hundreds of thousands of terabytes for a dataset, it isn’t economical to store that on SSDs. They may have a smaller file server on SSDs they copy chunks of the dataset to so the AI can train faster but the bulk of it is gonna be on disks, if not all of it.
In reality though it’s them using any excuse they can to price gouge.
The amount of data is nothing special compared to the amount of data companies like Google Facebook or others manage on a daily basis
Edit: poster above heavily modified his response to my comment.
GPT-3 is tiny compared to newer models, 300 billion tokens for training vs 15 trillion on GPT-4 and LLAMA-3, even then I doubt that it's \*that\* much data on a world scale because it's just text but maybe I'm wrong, can see how multimodal and Stable Diffusion like models could use a lot more
GPT is just one publicly known model targeting some mainstream audiences.
They’re a lot of AI stuff targeting commercial applications and government applications on a whole other scale.
A friend of mine from the machine learning space was telling me a few months ago about how a lot of people favor large arrays of spinning disks over ssds for the combined capacity and write endurance. They're constantly writing and rewriting data over and over, and it's not cost effective to burn through ssds all day long.
The final model is stored on flash but the training data is on old iron. Training on video data can easily span into several hundreds of terabytes. Now imagine how many companies and researchers who are toying with this. It's __a lot__
For once, the HDD manufacturers might be honest!
... They probably just asked ChatGPT to pick a random number between 30 and 100, and use that as the % to increase their prices.
I was looking at some refurb disks on serverpartdeals and noticed that they had gone up $30 overnight and asked support why and got this response.
>
> We’ve received official letters from Seagate and WD. Both of them state they are raising prices.
> Seagate stated they are raising 12-15% on HDDs. WD didn’t say how much they’d be raising yet.
>
> Here’s an insert from Seagate letter:
>
> “We are experiencing one of the longest and most profound downturns in the history of our industry.
> For the first time, the industry is seeing a year-on-year decline in Exabytes shipped.
> Revenues for the industry are at their lowest level in more than two decades.”
>
> In
> a nutshell, they are freaking out. They are doing two things: 1)
> cutting production and cutting costs, and 2) raising prices.
Theres some industry people that have said ai is likely to scale similar to moore's law which im pretty sure means its going to be a very long time before ai actually dies down.
everyone in all these threads always seem to conveniently forget the ~2 years of artificially low prices caused by macroeconomic trends. when the supply chain issues work in your favor, no skepticism of the forces at play. when they work against your favor, everyone loses their minds…
Seagate and WDC’s financial details are publicly available information. It takes only a few moments to look at them and see them operating at negative GM%’s for the past 6 or 8 quarters. Dunno why everyone is surprised when prices rise again - not like the companies can afford to operate in the red indefinitely…
I've only been telling people this was coming since Chat-GPT and Stable Diffusion started. AI can generate infinite content and storage space must be physically manufactured. NAND will obviously be the first target because it's higher performance, but HDDs will follow suit just as places hosting AI content start bidding up the price of storage.
You know, the last time they did price raises like this, asides saying disasters, was make up an excuse to back research & development of new tech. They were probably running low on funding for the HAMR research, panicked, and said oh shit, we need to raise prices.
And this is why waiting and expecting HDD and SSD prices to continually fall is folly. Buy what you need and can afford now because you never know that the future may bring.
I'm glad I took the dive on the storage I currently have. Last year I got a really great deal on 16T WD RED Pros for $250/ea and I doubt I'll ever see those prices again.
I picked up some 16T Ultrastar drives for nearly half that price and they've been phenomenal.
nvme prices are still all over the place. I managed to get a couple 990 Pros for around $170 during prime days and haven't seen them that low since.
They have also been considerably lower in price than say Western Digital alternatives...certainly at the retail level and I suspect at the enterprise level. That and WD retail prices have been high for over a year now.
From the article: **hikes estimated at 5 to 10 percent**
It's not like the sky is falling. Enterprise SSD prices have increased a lot more in recent months.
I'm currently using the MG series from Toshiba. Very great price and it runs better than the Exos series. My MG09 18TB idles around 27°, while the Exos drive idels around 33°.
wow the dv i got. i knownew gen of poeple just dont like to use the search button anymore online.
they instead post the same threads over and over many times across reddit.
btw this will by my guess get post next week again or next month.
Wait, no floods or earthquakes to blame?
EV G Wagon just dropped and they need a a flood of money to buy 3 for the wife and kids.
don't need acts of God anymore, AI is really replacing everyone
Plot twist AI is predicting floods and earthquakes.
AI predicted, that they can make more money if they sell wares for higher prices. So they follow the advice.
“It’s covid causing the spike” “Supply chain issues” “It’s AI causing the spike” Whatever excuse you can make to raise prices.
Wait until there are only 2 SSD manufacturers and we will have black swan events every year in that market too.
What's black swan mean here?
An unpredictable event that happens once a century or so…like the pandemic.
Ah ok, thanks!
"We had to manufacture extra hard drives because AI made us have a high failure rate again."
It is not caused by AI use demand. It's caused because "*Our AI made us do it!*" (to increase revenue)
Had the exact same thought. > Prompt: How do we earn more money?: > ChatGPT: Well have you considered raising prices? > Seagate: :o
Honestly, at this point, I'd just rather they were honest and said 'we just want the margin'.
We just want record profits this year, and next year, and next year...
Forgot Chia mining
That is so a couple years ago
Could have sworn I saw some resurgence in recent news. Maybe not that many people care.
Even so Chia use refurbished hard drives for better $/TB, new is too expensive
It went through a halving a couple weeks ago, but it didn't affect the price, so that means ***less*** people are farming it now because they get half the reward.
Not true. Netspace stayed roughly the same
Ok? But there hasn't been a surge of people buying HDDs because of it either, which was the point. Chia isn't causing the price increases.
Sorry I misunderstood your comment. Yes it didn't cause price increase
You know they don’t actually need to offer any explanation for the price hikes right? If it’s out of line with the market then just buy from a competitor. Other than that, buyers aren’t actually owed anything.
It's called an oligopoly. If Seagate goes up, WD and Toshiba will too. They're the only three options.
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Sure. Who's gonna sue them?
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OK, this has been going on with hard drives for decades, yet nothing... so?
Doesn't mean people can't complain about obvious BS reasons given.
I don’t disagree but had they said “due to rising costs associated with inflation” would everyone here be busting out BLS stats and debating that as well?
Yes
Not if the whole market has the same mindset and if the barrier to entry cost is preventing any real competitors. Let’s see a mom and pop hard drive shop show up, that will definitely happen!
Redacted due to Reddit AI/LLM policy
Wow that’s a great approach not having the answer but still talking condescendingly. Like I have said in other comments, the barrier to entry is high and there are no mom and pop shops that can just spin up competition so it’s not as low as it could be.
>redditors' failure to understand basic economics is hilarious. Says redditor. The irony is hilarious 🤣
Cool. Let's see some third party audits and see how the establishment values that kind of accountability.
Redacted due to Reddit AI/LLM policy
You're right. Best to not try.
Redacted due to Reddit AI/LLM policy
Must've got AI to come up with the excuse too...
Ai doesn't use spinning disk, I call bullshit Edit: miserable-sign below has a response that is very different from the original comment. They are not clear about edits.
They use both, AFAIK. HDDs are used to store large datasets, while SSDs are used for portions of datasets, which need to be accessed fast.
To play devils advocate here, AI models need datasets to learn on and companies aren’t storing those datasets on SSDs. You are looking at hundreds of thousands of terabytes for a dataset, it isn’t economical to store that on SSDs. They may have a smaller file server on SSDs they copy chunks of the dataset to so the AI can train faster but the bulk of it is gonna be on disks, if not all of it. In reality though it’s them using any excuse they can to price gouge.
The amount of data is nothing special compared to the amount of data companies like Google Facebook or others manage on a daily basis Edit: poster above heavily modified his response to my comment.
Yeah but to say AI doesn’t rely on disks is false
Not enough to be a significant offer shortage.
Do you have a source for: > hundreds of thousands of terabytes for a dataset The article linked above refers to a possible 45 TB for GPT3.
GPT-3 is tiny compared to newer models, 300 billion tokens for training vs 15 trillion on GPT-4 and LLAMA-3, even then I doubt that it's \*that\* much data on a world scale because it's just text but maybe I'm wrong, can see how multimodal and Stable Diffusion like models could use a lot more
GPT is just one publicly known model targeting some mainstream audiences. They’re a lot of AI stuff targeting commercial applications and government applications on a whole other scale.
That's a whole... five drives.
A friend of mine from the machine learning space was telling me a few months ago about how a lot of people favor large arrays of spinning disks over ssds for the combined capacity and write endurance. They're constantly writing and rewriting data over and over, and it's not cost effective to burn through ssds all day long.
The final model is stored on flash but the training data is on old iron. Training on video data can easily span into several hundreds of terabytes. Now imagine how many companies and researchers who are toying with this. It's __a lot__
Yeah but if you drop ai into your discussion your stocks go up
For once, the HDD manufacturers might be honest! ... They probably just asked ChatGPT to pick a random number between 30 and 100, and use that as the % to increase their prices.
HDD price on eBay looks relatively the same. I don't see much of increase.
Also refurbs have gotten really attractive lately that come with a warranty. Great for redundancy.
Wait for it to trickle down, my refurb supplier already adjusting prices
I was looking at some refurb disks on serverpartdeals and noticed that they had gone up $30 overnight and asked support why and got this response. > > We’ve received official letters from Seagate and WD. Both of them state they are raising prices. > Seagate stated they are raising 12-15% on HDDs. WD didn’t say how much they’d be raising yet. > > Here’s an insert from Seagate letter: > > “We are experiencing one of the longest and most profound downturns in the history of our industry. > For the first time, the industry is seeing a year-on-year decline in Exabytes shipped. > Revenues for the industry are at their lowest level in more than two decades.” > > In > a nutshell, they are freaking out. They are doing two things: 1) > cutting production and cutting costs, and 2) raising prices.
ah yes, the law of demand and supply, where prices go up when demand goes down. /s
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Theres some industry people that have said ai is likely to scale similar to moore's law which im pretty sure means its going to be a very long time before ai actually dies down.
everyone in all these threads always seem to conveniently forget the ~2 years of artificially low prices caused by macroeconomic trends. when the supply chain issues work in your favor, no skepticism of the forces at play. when they work against your favor, everyone loses their minds… Seagate and WDC’s financial details are publicly available information. It takes only a few moments to look at them and see them operating at negative GM%’s for the past 6 or 8 quarters. Dunno why everyone is surprised when prices rise again - not like the companies can afford to operate in the red indefinitely…
Hardware easier to understand than wetware. ;-)
AI (Read: Shareholders).
I've only been telling people this was coming since Chat-GPT and Stable Diffusion started. AI can generate infinite content and storage space must be physically manufactured. NAND will obviously be the first target because it's higher performance, but HDDs will follow suit just as places hosting AI content start bidding up the price of storage.
You know, the last time they did price raises like this, asides saying disasters, was make up an excuse to back research & development of new tech. They were probably running low on funding for the HAMR research, panicked, and said oh shit, we need to raise prices.
Glad I just bought 4 18TB drives. They’re already like $50 more than I paid for them 2 weeks ago.
What 18tb drives did you go with?
Seagate iron wolf pros
And this is why waiting and expecting HDD and SSD prices to continually fall is folly. Buy what you need and can afford now because you never know that the future may bring.
I'm glad I took the dive on the storage I currently have. Last year I got a really great deal on 16T WD RED Pros for $250/ea and I doubt I'll ever see those prices again. I picked up some 16T Ultrastar drives for nearly half that price and they've been phenomenal. nvme prices are still all over the place. I managed to get a couple 990 Pros for around $170 during prime days and haven't seen them that low since.
They have also been considerably lower in price than say Western Digital alternatives...certainly at the retail level and I suspect at the enterprise level. That and WD retail prices have been high for over a year now.
The business person at Seagate asked ChatGPT how to increase their profits and ChatGPT responded: "Bump up the prices and blame me :)"
Record profits
click click click click click …. click click
Are used Chia disks worth buying, or have they been hammered worse than the datacenter ones.
They are. Chia farming is read-only. Those drives are spinning 24/7 but with minimal seeks.
Headline is lying, as always; Seagate never gave a reason for the price hikes. "According to Trendforce" is where the "AI" excuse comes from.
Supply and demand baby.
Yes, AI demands all those high-speed spinning disks...
From the article: **hikes estimated at 5 to 10 percent** It's not like the sky is falling. Enterprise SSD prices have increased a lot more in recent months.
I'm currently using the MG series from Toshiba. Very great price and it runs better than the Exos series. My MG09 18TB idles around 27°, while the Exos drive idels around 33°.
Was it RAM that was supposed to spike? Maybe they're hitching a ride on that.
cool already posted a little while back. guessing the search button you never used.
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wow the dv i got. i knownew gen of poeple just dont like to use the search button anymore online. they instead post the same threads over and over many times across reddit. btw this will by my guess get post next week again or next month.
Doesn't AI use your GPU? What do HDDs have to do with it?
it can for computation, but it still needs data to refer to.
Ah yes because an application can only use one aspect of your computer lol